What is True Obedience?

tuc wrote:
What is True Obedience?

All the commands were given to show us that we could NOT keep them and that we were not even able to keep them even for second. He knew that we could never live by them and He NEVER intended for us to keep them.

I believe the young ruler had indeed kept the commandments of God and so did Jesus who struck at a deeper matter - his love of money (which the Law doesn’t cover) and the rich young ruler went away sorrowful.

God bless,
Lisa

Excessive love of money is covered in the "Law" under lusting, coveting and even Idolatry when you start reverencing your wealth more than the Creator.

Sister Lysa is correct, Love of Money is not a law, it is spirit of Law. Except do not Covert, all other laws are external. So only covert is spiritual. The rich young ruler did not covert for any other's money. So he did not covert. Old testament people did not understand the spirit of Law, Jesus came to show us the spirit of Law. If you understand the spirit of Law and keep them with the power of Holy Spirit you can live a Godly life without falling the actual Physical law.

I only have one response to this post.
Matthew 18:6-
but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

Such teaching will only cause people to stumble. No way it will benefit believers. These posters are like Doctors, who tell their patients that they are alright though internally the patients are dying with Cancer. Though they think they are helping these patients mentally, they are actually killing them instead of treating them. I am sad that Sermon Index is becoming host for such doctors.

theEphah wrote:
Excessive love of money is covered in the "Law" under lusting, coveting and even Idolatry when you start reverencing your wealth more than the Creator.

I was just trying to show (and I believe that scripture bears me out), that there is no commandment that specifically addresses the love of money. It was Jesus who revealed the content of our hearts about the love of money.

Anyway, my point in my first reply was not about the love of money itself but that the rich young ruler told the Son of God that he had kept all the commandments from his youth up and Christ did not call him out on one commandment that he had broken. I believe logically that Jesus’ silence reveals that the rich young ruler in fact did keep all the commandments.

God bless,
Lisa

Sree wrote:
Love of Money is not a law, it is spirit of Law. Except do not Covet, all other laws are external. So only covet is spiritual. The rich young ruler did not covet for any other's money. So he did not covet. Old testament people did not understand the spirit of Law, Jesus came to show us the spirit of Law. If you understand the spirit of Law and keep them with the power of Holy Spirit you can live a Godly life without falling the actual Physical law.

God bless,
Lisa

Tuc wrote: "Our salvation was impossible for us but God did what we could not do and saved us."

Tuc, I read your posts this thread, your spiritual eyes are wide open, thanks for sharing these all important works of God, His gifts to us who believe Him, and accepted His words and deeds on our behalf.

Sree and Lysa,

If the young rich man did not sin, why did he walk away saddened? He knew Jesus revealed his sin, and made him aware of it.

The Sin he committed was idolatry. The Young rich man loved his money more than God, he believed Jesus to be from God and represented God, but he loved his money more than God. Had Jesus asked for half of his money, The Rich man may have well given it to Jesus, but all of it he could not bring himself to do, for he loved the good life money afforded him.

The Rich young man was a very decent person. Jesus liked him. But Jesus condemned him under the Mosaic Laws, which no man except Jesus was ever capable of keeping the entire Mosaic Law. No one could be saved under the Mosaic Law, except Jesus, who kept the entire Mosaic Law until death on the cross, and having fulfilled the entire Law, Jesus took upon Himself the punishments that we deserved for breaking that Law. He fulfilled the entire Law, and that made him the perfect Lamb of God whose sufferings and death on the cross takes away all sins of all who believe in Him and accept His atoning blood as having wash away their sins for all time, and this is God's gift to us, that through His only begotten Son, we now have eternal life, and the life abundant.

But I should add that this Young rich man was indeed an exceptional good man with a good heart. When this young rich man walked away sad, note how the apostles reacted, they were stunned and downcast.

Matt 19:25-26

"When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?" 26 And looking at them Jesus said to them, " With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Then Peter said to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?"

And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last; and the last, first. NASU

The first are the Jews, they will be last to be saved, and the gentiles will be saved first, as explained by Paul in Romans Chapter 11.

The point Jesus raised is that no one will be saved by keeping the Law of Moses, but that God is providing a different way for all to be saved.

Jesus never preached the gospel of the coming New Covenant, because to do so would have been a violation of the Mosaic Law, which would have made Jesus a sinner and disqualify Him as Messiah. In fact Jesus would eventually be accused by the Jewish leaders of preaching another Covenant other than the Mosaic Law, and Jesus denied this. Jesus hinted a few times of a New Covenant, but He did not reveal that plainly until after He fulfilled all of the Mosaic Law and was unjustly crucified, upon which God the Father terminated the Mosaic law upon Jesus death. Jesus explained the New Covenant clearly to His Apostles and others after His resurrection.

May I share just a little with you too ?

Jn. 1:17 says, 'For the law was given by Moses, but grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ.'

* The law was a written out,for one's to read it and try to do / obey it.
* That was the first covenant,...made by God through Moses.

Heb. 7:19 ,..For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a
BETTER HOPE did, by which we DRAW NEAR TO GOD.
Vs.22,By so much was Jesus made a surety of a BETTER TESTAMENT.

But what does Grace and Truth have to do with us ?
EVERYTHING !
Please bare with me,..and Please do consider, what Grace really is .

First,let us remember,..Jn. 1:14,..Jesus was full of Grace,( he did all of the
Father's will.He was just FULL of this Grace.

It is a precious gift ...but it is a enabling gift with power.
Remember, when how strong we were being drawn when the Lord was at the first drawing us to Him ? That was His Grace.

Grace is : The Devine inffluence upon the heart / and it's reflection in the life.
(1) The Devine inffluence upon the heart...( The powerful drawing of us to
God ,who is 'The Word',...Remember how He was bringing up our old flesh way,..trying to empty us out, in order to fill us up with His way.?Wanting us to die to our old way ,..to be born again of Him ? Born again of the Spirit of God.
He is SPIRIT/ WORD .
..to hear His voice and follow Him. ( that we be be Hearers of the Word)
To be hearers of God,..who is the Word.

(2) and it's reflection in the life,..'The doing of the Word in our life,...
So that we be not hearers only ,and not doers of the Word.

He wants us to hear in the Spirit,..having Spiritual ears,..as He talks to
us, He want us to follow Him,...' be led by the Spirit of God'....' For as many as are led by the Spirit of God,They are the son/ children of God.'

Now concerning the man that ask Jesus,what he had to do to inherit eternal life,..and he said he had kept all the commandments.
What I see, ......Jesus was showing this man, the new and Living Way ,
That whatever we are asked to do,...it is a command / ment...( He was asking this man to get rid of his money,...He may ask us different things.)
He is calling us to hear His voice and obey,whether it be in changing our flesh- way or directing us.
Mary, the mother of Jesus,( Jn.2:5) said,..and I believe it holds some
Signiffigints,.she said,'whatever He saith unto you,do it.'

I know it is long,
Bless these Words O'Lord,
Elizabeth

by theEphah on 2011/12/27 18:05:25 wrote:

"ArtB --

The point Jesus raised is that no one will be saved by keeping the Law of Moses, but that God is providing a different way for all to be saved.

This is an incorrect statement. There is nowhere in the scriptures that makes such a claim."

Uhmm, How about:

Zec 11:7-14
7 So I pastured the flock doomed to slaughter, hence the afflicted of the flock.

And I took for myself two staffs: the one I called Favor and the other I called Union; so I pastured the flock. Then I annihilated the three shepherds in one month, for my soul was impatient with them, and their soul also was weary of me.

9 Then I said, "I will not pasture you. What is to die, let it die, and what is to be annihilated, let it be annihilated; and let those who are left eat one another's flesh."

10 I took my staff Favor and cut it in pieces, to break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples.

11 So it was broken on that day, and thus the afflicted of the flock who were watching me realized that it was the word of the LORD.

12 I said to them, "IF IT IS GOOD IN YOUR SIGHT, GIVE ME MY WAGES; BUT IF NOT, NEVER MIND." So they weighed out thirty shekels of silver as my wages.

13 Then the LORD said to me, "THROW IT TO THE POTTER, THAT AT WHICH I WAS VALUED BY THEM." So I took the THIRTY SHEKELS OF SILVER AND THREW THEM TO THE POTTER IN THE HOUSE OF THE LORD.

1st, there is only one covenant that God made with all his peoples: THE MOSAIC COVENANT. And there is ONLY ONE Historic Event that fits this prophecy, and it is the Crucifixion and death of Jesus Christ. Christ stated that the not one jot or tittle will depart from the Mosaic Law until all is fulfilled. All was fulfilled when Jesus, having kept the entire Mosaic Law, was crucified on the cross and at the moment of His death, God Cancelled His Mosaic Covenant with His people. BUT HE HAS NOT ABANDONED THEM. See Romans 11!

And,

Heb 5:1-10
For every high priest taken from among men is appointed on behalf of men in things pertaining to God, in order to offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins; he can deal gently with the ignorant and misguided, since he himself also is beset with weakness; and because of it he is obligated to offer sacrifices for sins, as for the people, so also for himself. And no one takes the honor to himself, but receives it when he is called by God, even as Aaron was.

5 So also Christ did not glorify Himself so as to become a high priest, but He who said to Him,

"YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU";

6 just as He says also in another passage,

"YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK."

7 In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, 10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

Heb 7:11-28
11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. 13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. 15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is attested of Him,

"YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER
ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK."

18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment [= The Mosaic Law] because of its WEAKNESS AND USELESSNESS (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. And inasmuch as it was not without an oath 21(for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him,

"THE LORD HAS SWORN
AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND,
'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER'");

22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

23 The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

Heb 8:13

13 When He [GOD THE FATHER] said, " A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. NASU

So Ephah, from these scriptures and many more, it is true that God Annihilated The Mosaic Covenant, just prior to establishing the far better COVENANT OF JESUS CHRIST.

I do not live under both Covenants, I am only under the New Covenant of Jesus Christ.

Sin no longer has any power over me, Jesus has nailed all my sins, past - present - and future, on the cross, and His blood has washed them all away.

I do not need to worry about sin, think about sin, nor fear sin, because He WHO is in me is greater than he who is in the world, and He set me free from the Law of Sin and Death. I now live by faith with the confidence that He will accomplish His good will in me that I may have a new nature that will naturally conform to His good will, and that we who are His Children will bear good fruit abundantly. And this is God's will and purpose, and even if we fail from time to time - God will not fail us, His children, but will accomplish all He has planned for us from the very beginning.

I am dead to sin and to the Mosaic Law, and alive to Christ and the Laws of Christ.

Ro 6:8-11

8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

(All Scriptures are NASU)

My dear brother theEphah,
Thank you,
I know the commandments are Holy.
That when the Lord begins to draw us,by His Spirit,.....( Grace)...the commandments,..... sin becomes exceedingly sinful to us.
And as we are coming to this drawing of His Grace,( This Devine enflluence drawing us, He is steady letting us know,that we must leave off baggage,....to be clothed upon with His Righteousness...to be emptied out of our old way,...to be clothed upon With Him,..who is the Word.,....the Holy Spirit ,...Word / Spirit.
He,through the Spirit,will never teach us or draw us to steal ,hate, kill
Etc,..etc...He will draw us away from those things. He will only draw us into things that are justice / just and righteousness .
But it is a Better way because He is bringing it up in us BY His Spirit,
with Power / help to do it.
We are desiring and learning together in Him,who loves us so much.
For His Name sake,
Elizabeth

If the young rich man did not sin, why did he walk away saddened? He knew Jesus revealed his sin, and made him aware of it.

The Sin he committed was idolatry.

I never said he did not Sin. He had sin but not according to Law. The love of Money is Idolatry to us who live by Spirit. Jesus found it because he was born of the Spirit and was able to keep all the laws because he had the spirit of Law. If you were able to imagine a life that this Rich Young Ruler lived purly by law, without any understanding of Spirit. Then he did not sin. But was his life complete? Was it pleasing to God? If it was then he won't be coming to Jesus asking what should he do more as he knew that there is something he is still missing.

The point Jesus raised is that no one will be saved by keeping the Law of Moses, but that God is providing a different way for all to be saved.

No he did not raise that point. He said it is tough for people to be saved by the law of Moses. He said it is tough like getting a camel through eye of Needle. There were people who pleased God in OT, like Moses, Noah, Enoch etc. How did they do it? Don't tell me they did by faith, I agree it is faith, but faith in whom, Faith in God and keeping his laws in fear of him.

The point Jesus made by the Rich young ruler is, it is very difficult for a man to please God by keeping Laws, but God has made it possible by making us born of the Spirit (when we are born again), so that we can keep the law in Spirit like how Jesus kept it. Jesus is also born of the Spirit like us so if he can keep it then what prevents us?

Also Jesus preached about a New Testament life which including living by Spirit, Sermon on the Mount is a great example.

Quote: As a result of what God in Christ has already accomplishes we now have a heart in perfect harmony with Him.

Come on thats a million miles away from the the truth...

The FACT, the great and terrible fact, that EVEN THE RIGHTEOUS HAVE IN THEM EVIL NATURES. Job said, "Behold, I am vile." He did not always know it. All through the long controversy he had declared himself to be just and upright: he had said, "My righteousness I will hold fast, and I will not let it go;" and notwithstanding he did scrape his body with a potsherd, and his friends did vex his mind with the most bitter revilings, yet he still held fast his integrity, and would not confess his sin; but when God came to plead with him, he had no sooner listened to the voice of God in the whirlwind, and heard the question, "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" than at once he put his finger on his lips, and would not answer God, but simply said, "Behold, I am vile."

Possibly some may say, that Job was an exception to the rule; and they will tell us, that other saints had not in them such a reason for humiliation; but we remind them of David, and we bid them read the 51st penitential Psalm, where we find him declaring that he was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did his mother conceive him; confessing, that he had sin within him. In many other places in the Psalms, David doth continually acknowledge and confess, that he is not perfectly rid of sin; that still the evil viper doth twist itself around his heart.

Turn also, if you please, to Isaiah. There you have him, in one of his visions, saying that he was a man of unclean lips, and that he dwelt among a people of unclean lips.

But more especially, under the gospel dispensation, you find Paul, in that memorable chapter we have been reading, declaring, that he found in "his members a law warring against the law of his mind, and bringing him into captivity to the law of sin." Yea, we hear that remarkable exclamation of struggling desire and intense agony, "O, wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"

Do you expect to find yourselves better saints than Job? do you imagine that the confession which befitted the mouth of David is too mean for you? are ye so proud, that ye will not exclaim with Isaiah, "I also am a man of unclean lips?" Or rather, have ye progressed so far in pride, that ye dare to exalt yourselves above the laborious Apostle Paul, and to hope that in you, that is, in your flesh, there dwelleth any good thing?

If ye do think yourselves to be perfectly pure from sin, hear ye the word of God: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we say we have no sin, we make God a liar."

C. H. Spurgeon

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0083.htm

In response to Elizabeth's post above on 2011/12/28 5:16

No one is saying that now that the Mosaic Law has been annihilated by God, that we are now lawless, therefore it is alright for us to steal from others, hate people, or commit murder.

Even though God annihilated the Mosaic Covenant in its' entirety, Clearly He did not leave us lawless, for through His only begotten SON - Jesus, we are now under a new set of laws of Jesus Christ. we are under a New set of Laws, which are:

1. The Royal Law of Love.
2. The Law of Liberty.
3. The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

I have addressed these Laws of the New Covenant in a post above in this thread.

So I must ask, are we as Christians to keep all 613 laws of the Mosaic Covenant, or is it some subset of these laws we ought to keep?

I know for a fact that as long as I live, I will never stop sinning. How do I know this:

1 John 1:5-10
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8. IF WE SAY THAT WE HAVE NO SIN, WE ARE DECEIVING OURSELVES AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN US. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10. IF WE SAY THAT WE HAVE NOT SINNED, WE MAKE HIM A LIAR AND HIS WORD IS NOT IN US. NASU

Versus 8 and 10 I highlighted in CAPS, and both indicate that as long as I live, I will sin. But I do confess my known sins to God knowing that He is faithful to forgive me, AND THAT HE WILL CLEANSE ME FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. I believe this because it is what John wrote He would do. I know that the blood of Jesus has washed away all my sins, past, present, and future. I am already saved, and sealed by the Holy Spirit, as a deposit on Jesus purchase of me, until He comes again to receive me into the Kingdom that God created at the same time as He made the Cosmos.

My 2nd question is even more to the point,

If I am capable of keeping the Mosaic Laws, why do I need Jesus to die on the cross for me? God never even want to give His people those laws, He wanted His people to follow Him by faith, to believe Him and Trust Him through all things, to live by FAITH and not by sight. When Moses read all these laws to the people, they all shouted 'These we will do." and then Moses anointed them with the sprinkling of blood so as to seal this bilateral covenant that they made with God, the Mosaic Covenant (i.e. contract). Then God took Moses aside and before any of them had a chance to break the Mosaic Covenant they made with God, God told Moses that they will never keep it.

The Apostle Paul in Galatians wrote that the purpose of the Mosaic Law was to cause sin to increase (Romans 5). In Hebrews 7, Paul writes that the Mosaic Law was useless and worthless in that it could never save anyone. Paul also stated in Hebrews that Jesus is a Priest, not of Levi, but His is an everlasting Priesthood of Melchizedek, and Paul adds: where this is a change of Priesthood, there is a change of Law. It that same chapter Paul declares that the Mosaic Law was useless and worthless in that it could not save anyone. Thus it is clear that we are not under the Mosaic Covenant, but of the laws mentioned in the New Covenant. My salvation is truly a gift from God because I believed His Son, my Lord Jesus. To me, being a Christian is all joy.

Elibeth, it is hard for me to believe that God is telling you to tell us to be 'obedient' by keeping the laws of the Mosaic Covenant. I would think that God knows His own Theology as laid out in the New Testament.

The difference between the two Covenants is that in the Mosaic Covenant, we must save ourselves by obeying 613 laws as they are applicable to each of us (Some were just for for men, some just for women, some for both, just for the priests, some pertaining to the land).

The reason you made this mistake is because you believe that Jesus was addressing all peoples including we Christians, He was not. Jesus never openly taught the New
Covenant, at best, Jesus occasionally hinted about a New Covenant was coming (and it did come into existence upon His death, at that moment God the Father annihilated the Mosaic Covenant (fulfilling the prediction in Zechariah 11: 7-14). Note that Zec 11:1-6 prophesies the destruction of the Jewish Temple that was built under Herod.

Jesus, as the true Son of God, the only begotten God of God the Father, lived under the Mosaic Law and He fulfilled all of that Law. And as the true chief Rabbi of Israel, by being the only begotten Son of the Father, He taught His fellow Jews to do the same. If you read the gospels, you would see that Jesus faithfully preached only to His fellow Jews, He never reached out to the gentiles. Had Jesus preached the New Covenant during His life, for him to do so, that would have been a violation of the Mosaic Covenant, and that would have been a sin, and Jesus would not have been the unblemished Lamb of God, whom takes away the sins of the world, through His innocent blood shed on the cross. Upon His death on the cross, all of the Law was fulfilled by Jesus, but something peculiar and powerful had occurred, instead of receiving all the promises for keeping the whole Mosaic Law, Jesus took upon His self the punishment due us, and upon Jesus death God annihilated the Mosaic Covenant and established the New Covenant. These are mutually exclusive Covenants.

As for the rich young man, Jesus pointed out that this young rich man, who most likely came to the closest any of any human (besides Jesus) to keeping the entire Mosaic Law. But he failed on just one of Moses 613 commandments, He could not give up all his wealth to follow God, a form of idolatry. This young rich ruler was a person whom we would call good man of excellent character. This was born out by the fact that he came to Jesus, for anyone practicing sin would not have come to Jesus. Look at the reaction of the Apostles when Jesus said:

Mt 19:23-26

23 And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. "Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?"

And looking at them Jesus said to them, " With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." NASU

Yes, even the Apostles saw that this wonderful young rich man was exceptionally good in regard to keeping the Mosaic Law, so much so that they were astonished and they feared "Who then can be saved". Jesus agreed that even they had cause to be astonished, because they too were under the Mosaic Law.

But Jesus knew His mission on Earth, that He would keep the entire Mosaic law, then instead of receiving all the blessings of keeping the Mosaic law, He allowed Himself to suffer the penalty of one having violated the Mosaic Law, and not sparing Himself, sweating blood, He gave Himself up to the penalty due all people who have violated THE LAW of Moses, He suffered upon his self the stripes, the humiliation, the death that we all which we deserved. Upon His death God annihilated the the Mosaic Covenant in its'' entirety, and God established a New Covenant, which Jesus explained to His Apostles plainly in words and from predictions in the OT.

The Difference is that under the Mosaic covenant, we had to save ourselves by doing all the works of the Mosaic Laws as it required of us.

Under the New Covenant, Jesus Christ purchased us, gave us the indwelling Holy Spirit, and we who accept atoning blood of Jesus, receives God's gift of eternal life, the life abundantly good, it is ours. And we now live under the laws of Jesus Christ. The marvelous thing about the Laws of Christ is that by them - God keeps us.

Romans 3:19-28 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

In Christ: Phillip

Christinyou, Thanks for posting Romans 3:19-28, it is right on target as to understanding the gospel of Jesus Christ. Our salvation is truly a gift from God, not earned by us. This is most wonderful.

Brother I would wish to correct your first statement based on which you think you live the NT life.

I know for a fact that as long as I live, I will never stop sinning. How do I know this:

This is totally wrong, 1 John never means what you think it means. IF 1 John says that we will keep sinning even after accepting Jesus as our Savior then the very first promise of NT is wrong
Matthew 1 -21:-
She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for [w]He will save His people from their sins

If we will all keep on Sinning then How is Jesus saving us from our sins? Saving is not just forgiving, it is more than that.

So if John meant this in 1 John 1-5 then why is he saying in 1 John 2 -1 :- My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin.

Well if it is impossible for us not to Sin then why is John taking all this effort to write to protect us from Sinning?

The answer is here, read again from 1 John 5, he is talking about those who have fellowship with our Lord by walking in Light. So there is no Darkness in them, in other words there is no Known sin in them. If they know something is Sin, they will immediately come out of it by confessing it. But this does not mean they are perfect, because there is unconscious sin in them, that they are yet to know (based on 1John1- 8 and 10). This is what Growth in Jesus is to know this unconscious sin and to repent of them each and every day, maturing in Jesus.
This can be compared to running a race with Jesus as our forerunner, the more you move closer to him the more you find difference and by confessing and repenting from them we keep moving ahead. The hope is one day we will be like him (1 John 3-9).

Since your assumption of NT life itself is not correct, I do not want to discuss about your assumption on Laws. The problem with your assumption is there is a great deception to take sin so lightly and fall prey to Saturn.

Jesus never openly taught the New
Covenant, at best, Jesus occasionally hinted about a New Covenant was coming (and it did come into existence upon His death, at that moment God the Father annihilated the Mosaic Covenant (fulfilling the prediction in Zechariah 11: 7-14). Note that Zec 11:1-6 prophesies the destruction of the Jewish Temple that was built under Herod.

Sorry for breaking in to this thread at this point but I just wanted to respond to this one point that I have quoted above.

If Jesus never openly taught New Covenant what are we to make of the Sermon on the Mount then? This was purest New Covenant and we as Christians have to live according to His teaching in the Sermon on the Mount. The absolutely astounding thing about the New Covenant is that Jesus Christ's salvation puts us in the place to fulfill His teaching.

If the "thou shalt's" and "thou shalt not's" of the Old Testament were difficult to obey the Lord Jesus' teachings on the mount were much more difficult. He didn't set something easier before men He set something a thousand times more difficult before them. He doesn't just say that they shouldn't do certain things but He says that they shouldn't even think of doing them, he goes right to the purity of the thoughts and imaginations of the heart.

The purity that God demands is impossible unless we are re-made from within and that is exactly what Christ has done in reconciling us to God. He came to put us in the place where we can be holy, that is, He came to make us what He teaches we should be, that is the difference.

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
(Romans 5:10-11)

In Christ,

Ron

The sermon on the mount is the purrest form of Law and connot be considered as a preecourser to Paul's final gospel given him by the risen Christ.

Gaebelein's Annoted Bible says it plainly
Matthew 5:1

CHAPTER 5

5. The Proclamation of the King concerning His Kingdom. Chapters 5-7
1. The Characteristics of the heirs of the Kingdom. 5:1-16.
2. The Confirmation of the Law and its Expansion. 5:17-48.
In chapters 5-7 we have the full report of the so-called Sermon on the Mount. Mark and Luke give fragments of this discourse, but the complete discourse is found only in Matthew. The Sermon on the Mount is the proclamation of the King concerning His Kingdom, and may well be called the "Magna Charta of the Kingdom of heaven." This discourse does not expound the Gospel of Grace, the way of salvation, the privileges and blessings of true Christianity. The teachers who say that the Sermon on the Mount is the Gospel are ignorant of what the Gospel is. We mention three wrong applications which are being made of this discourse.

1. The application to the unsaved, as if in this discourse the way to righteousness is shown, which man by his own effort is to attain. The discourse in the beginning speaks of saved persons, of disciples. The Lord does not address sinners. He taught His disciples. As the great unfolding of the salvation of God as revealed in the Epistle to the Romans is abandoned in Christendom, the false application of this discourse is increasingly followed. There is little preaching of the lost and helpless condition of man, the necessity of the new birth and the reception of eternal life. What is put in the place of the true Gospel is ethical teaching; and this has culminated in a Christian-socialistic attempt to save society. The Sermon on the Mount is taken as the program for this. But it condemns this spurious Gospel of works and evolution.

2. The second wrong application is the one which makes this discourse exclusively Christian and applies it to the Church. The magna charta of the Church is in the Epistles of Paul, to whom the full revelation of the Church was given. Christian position is not revealed in the Sermon on the Mount. The Sermon on the Mount is not given as the standard of Christian experience and walk.

3. The third false application is the one which makes this discourse exclusively Jewish. Some Christians refuse to consider these chapters as having any message or instruction for them at all. This is the other extreme and equally wrong. We repeat, the Sermon on the Mount is the proclamation of the King concerning His Kingdom. That Kingdom is not the church, nor is it a state of righteousness of the earth brought about through the agency of the church. It is the Kingdom as it will be set up by the King with the coming age. While in the Old Testament we have the outward manifestations of that earthly Kingdom revealed, we have here from the lips of the King the inner principles of that Kingdom. When the Lord Jesus Christ comes again the Old Testament predictions concerning the Kingdom will be literally fulfilled and the Kingdom itself will be a Kingdom of righteousness according to this proclamation. However, this does not exclude application to us, the heirs of the Kingdom.

The beatitudes give the character of the heirs who enter the Kingdom. They do not speak of what a person should be, or strive to be, but what they are. Only the Grace of God can produce such a character. The blessings are in possession of those, who have believed on the Son of God. And the Lord Jesus manifested all these characteristics in His humiliation. But these beatitudes have also a significance in connection with the future believing remnant of Israel, waiting amidst the great tribulations and under the severest persecutions at the end of the age for the return of the King. See Zep 3:12 and Isa 66:2; Mic 7:1-7.

The Law is then taken up by the King in this proclamation. He is the Lawgiver and therefore He confirms, expands and supplements the Law. Here we are on Jewish ground. Believers in Christ have nothing to do with the law. We are dead to the law (Ro 7:4; Ga 3:24-25.) The better righteousness needed to enter the Kingdom is not man's own righteousness, but that which is by faith in Jesus Christ.

As He speaks with authority He uncovers the heart of man and shows the depths of corruption and the hopelessness that the natural man could ever attain such a righteousness. The words of the King condemn every man and prove him lost. The condemnation of the natural man is written there.

In Christ: Phillip

The sermon on the mount is the purrest form of Law and connot be considered as a preecourser to Paul's final gospel given him by the risen Christ.

Thanks a lot brother for letting us know what you truly believe. I won't have wasted so much time explaining you the true Gospel if I had known this belief of yours.

I would encourage you to have this as your signature, so that I won't get deceived by your user name in future.

What to do Jesus did not have enough intelligence as these modern day Bible scholars, so he wasted 3 and half years of his life preaching useless law that was about to be destroyed by him.

Jesus tried for 31/2 years to get Israel to accept Him as their King and Messiah. Telling them all their Laws could not make them Holy, yet He kept them Perfect which no man can do. Presenting Himself as the Son of God, which they crucified Him for.

In Christ: Phillip

Thanks Philip for mentioning this bible, I have not come across it before, and will download it with e sword. Its good to see truth brought out so well

David

This is the greatest Deception,

Luke 17-21:-
Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is [o]in your midst.”

If Sermon on the Mount are rules to be followed only in the Kingdom of God, then according to the words of Jesus, the Kingdom is already at our midst. Let he who has ears understand what he should do.

The sermon on the mount are not just rules to be followed, they are telling us who God is and what His Kingdom represents. This portion of scripture defines what the spirit of the Law is, not just rules to be accomplished in our doing, the letter of the law,(works). They are the normal of what the Kingdom of God is.

The Kingdom is already come if Jesus Christ is born again in us. If we don't have Jesus Christ and His Spirit and His promise of the Holy Spirit in us we are none of His. Either He is in us or He is not. "IN US", now the Bride of Christ and His Kingdom rests in His Temple and the Temple of the Holy Spirit, which IS "Christ in you the hope of glory".

Is He come? Is He rebirthed in you? Is He the King of His Kingdom? Are we His temple? Is the Holy Spirit in His Temple also. Are we sealed into Christ by the Holy Spirit.

This is the Kingdom, come in the Body of Christ His Church of whom He is the HEAD, first born among many.

In Christ: Phillip

The Sermon on the Mount is not given as the standard of Christian experience and walk.

If the Sermon on the Mount isn't a standard of the regenerate Christian walk I don't know what is. This hyper-dispensationalist theology would rob the Church of the greatest statement of true Christian living.

The Law is then taken up by the King in this proclamation. He is the Lawgiver and therefore He confirms, expands and supplements the Law. Here we are on Jewish ground.

The Sermon on the Mount has clear application to Christians today and most of this message is repeated in the substance elsewhere throughout the New Testament. There is nothing here to indicate that this message is to be limited in its application only to the people of Israel.

The Sermon on the Mount is not a way of salvation and it obviously goes way beyond the law. It presents a Christian way of living that can only be wrought in the heart by God. Its message doesn't tell us how to be saved, it tells us what it is like to be saved. There is no fundamental difference between this message and the message of Paul. They both are in harmony that "the just shall live by faith."

The Sermon on the Mount is simply not a restatement, expansion, or supplement of the law but is the highest expression of the quality of Christian living which Christ alone can produce. The gospel is the message of the person and work of Jesus Christ. Its incredible "good news" is that He can do for us what we cannot do for ourselves; He can change a sinner into a saint.

In Christ,

Ron

Quote: """The Sermon on the Mount has clear application to Christians today and most of this message is repeated in the substance elsewhere throughout the New Testament. There is nothing here to indicate that this message is to be limited in its application only to the people of Israel.

The Sermon on the Mount is not a way of salvation and it obviously goes way beyond the law. It presents a Christian way of living that can only be wrought in the heart by God. Its message doesn't tell us how to be saved, it tells us what it is like to be saved. There is no fundamental difference between this message and the message of Paul. They both are in harmony that "the just shall live by faith."

The Sermon on the Mount is simply not a restatement, expansion, or supplement of the law but is the highest expression of the quality of Christian living which Christ alone can produce. The gospel is the message of the person and work of Jesus Christ. Its incredible "good news" is that He can do for us what we cannot do for ourselves; He can change a sinner into a saint."""

I agree with everything you say, so where is the difference in what I wrote? Symantics?

The Sermon on the Mount is not what I do but who I am in Christ.

Where is dispensationalism in this. Who was Jesus specifically speaking to?

He was revealing His Kingdom and taking the Letter of the Law and giving the Spirit of the Law for His hearers, which can only be wrought in Him by He that is in us.

I am a hearer and a be-er, which makes me a doer in Him by His life that is in me.

In Christ: Phillip

Phillip, your post of 2011/12/28 15:57 is right on target. So many Christians are ignorant of this, as some responses on this forum reveal.

However, despite their ignorance, they are not necessarily disqualified from being Christians since we are not saved because our knowledge is perfect.

All they have to do to be saved is to truly believe that the atoning blood of Jesus Christ has washed away all their sins, past, present, and future, and to walk daily with God, trust God, love God, talk with God, and love and bless their fellow humans; and know that the indwelling Holy Spirit will guide them in all things, if they heed and let allow the Holy Spirit to do so.

In any case, whomever God predestined will be saved, for they recognize Jesus voice, and they come to Him on His terms of the New Covenant.

And sadly, any who puts themselves back under the Mosaic Law instead of the Laws of Christ of the New Covenant, are not saved. Such obviously are not familiar with Paul's writing in Romans, Ephesians, Galatians, Hebrew, etc.

Here is just one example:

Gal 3:1-6
You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain — if indeed it was in vain? 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

NASU

[quote ArtB]Jesus never openly taught the New
Covenant, at best, Jesus occasionally hinted about a New Covenant was coming (and it did come into existence upon His death, at that moment God the Father annihilated the Mosaic Covenant (fulfilling the prediction in Zechariah 11: 7-14). Note that Zec 11:1-6 prophesies the destruction of the Jewish Temple that was built under Herod.

[quote In the Light]Sorry for breaking in to this thread at this point but I just wanted to respond to this one point that I have quoted above.

If Jesus never openly taught New Covenant what are we to make of the Sermon on the Mount then?

Jesus audience were His people the Jews. There were no Christians among those He addressed, not even one, they were all Jews and all under the Mosaic Covenant. Had Jesus taught the New Covenant in lieu of the Mosaic Covenant, to His people who were strictly under the Mosaic [Old] Covenant, then Jesus would have violated the Mosaic Covenant, and that would have been a sin, which would have disqualified Jesus from being the Messiah.

In fact, The Pharisees, Sadducees, the Lawyers and scribes attempted on more than one occasion to demonstrate that Jesus was in violation of the Mosaic Covenant by teaching another Law, of which Jesus responses proved them wrong. He never preached the New Covenant, not even to His Apostles, until after His Resurrection. Only then did Jesus explain the New Covenant plainly, and they began to spread good news of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ whereby all people can be saved by placing themselves under the Blood Covering of Jesus Christ that Jesus shed on the cross as He died for our sins.

For too long God's people of the Old Covenant thought their salvation would be through keeping the whole Mosaic laws, and even though The Law was good, they could not keep it for reasons Paul stated in Romans Chapters 1 - 7. They never had a clue that God's salvation would not be the result of their ability properly keeping all the 613 Laws of the Mosaic Covenant, and, too many Christians believe they are saved by keeping a subset of the Mosaic Laws, Both are blinded to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

For God's plan of redemption and salvation was never to be the keeping of Law, but rather, it is through the the sacrifice of the unblemished lamb. For the Jews, a temporary one year pardon of all sins by the the blood of the annual sacrifice of a unblemished lamb.

And for the Christian, our salvation comes from the one time sacrifice of the Lamb of God that washes away all sins for all time to all who simply accept (i.e. believe = faith) the Blood of Jesus as washing away their sins for all time. To all who believe this, God sends the indwelling Holy Spirit, God-in-Me, through Whom God Himself will transform our sinful natures via the workings of the Holy Spirit in us, and Whom gives gifts to us, we who believe this and walk with God daily.

God will never fail to do what He says He will do. We do not change ourselves, God Changes us.

[quote In the Light]This was purest New Covenant and we as Christians have to live according to His teaching in the Sermon on the Mount. The absolutely astounding thing about the New Covenant is that Jesus Christ's salvation puts us in the place to fulfill His teaching.

If the "thou shalt's" and "thou shalt not's" of the Old Testament were difficult to obey the Lord Jesus' teachings on the mount were much more difficult. He didn't set something easier before men He set something a thousand times more difficult before them. He doesn't just say that they shouldn't do certain things but He says that they shouldn't even think of doing them, he goes right to the purity of the thoughts and imaginations of the heart.

You are exactly correct. Jesus, addressing only His fellow Jews, was not releasing them from the Mosaic Law, but rather, and He was explaining the full extent of the Mosaic Law, He was tightening the Law. i.e. 'Do not murder, if you hate your brother in your heart, you are guilty of murder. If you lust in your heart for a married woman, you already committed adultery.'

Also, Keep in mind, only Jews and converts to Judaism were under the Mosaic laws, and therefore brothers in a commonly held Law that was handed down from Moses, there was no New Covenant when Jesus spoke these words, nor did Jesus preach the NC Gospel to the gentiles prior to His Crucifixion. Jesus referred to gentiles as dogs unworthy of the food God the Father has for His children, the offspring of Israel and converts to Judaism, Jesus never preached to gentiles prior to His death, He was sent to the offspring of Israel. When they rejected Him and handed Him over to the Romans to crucify Jesus, and upon Jesus death, God annihilated His 'Mosaic covenant' with His people (Zec 11: 7-14). Note also Zec 11:1-6 is the destruction of Herods Temple.

And when did Christians receive the New Covenant. Amazingly Ron, you provided the answer in your post:

"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement." (Romans 5:10-11)

We as Christians ought to be inspired by the Sermon on the Mount, It even contains the Laws of the New Covenant that we should love God with all our might, strength, and Soul, but we are solely saved by accepting the blood of Jesus.

Jesus goes on to mentions the Law of liberty "Judge not that you may not be judged, be merciful that you may receive mercy." The Third Law of the New Covenant was revealed by Paul in Romans 8: The Law of the Spirit of Life.

Ro 8:1-2
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
NASU

The law of sin and death is the Mosaic Law, which God annihilated upon Jesus death. As good as it was, The Mosaic Law could not save anyone, for none but Jesus could keep it, all under it were doomed to death, except for Jesus, Who kept the Mosaic Law throughout His life until death, on behalf, then God annihilate the Mosaic Law, and replaced it with the Laws of the NC of Jesus Christ.

Tuc, your two post atop page 4 are excellent.

Lysa, When the young rich man walked away after Jesus asked him to give all his money to serve God, and to follow Jesus, he committed idolatry, a violation of the 4th Commandment, he sinned.

However, of all men that lived up to this time, this rich young man came very close to keeping all the commandments of Moses, he failed on one point, thus he was not entitled to eternal life under the Mosaic Covenant. Jesus Apostles were shaken by this revelation that this very good rich man will not receive eternal life under the Mosaic Law, they did not say 'Whew, it is a good thing we are not rich' but Peter, speaking on their behalf, asked "Who then can be saved."

Jesus responded, 'what man can not do, God can.' Jesus explain to His Apostles, after His resurrection, that all can be saved by simply accepting His atoning blood as a permanent covering of all their sins, past, present, and future; and God would send His Holy Spirit into them to transform under the blood atonement of Jesus blood, to transform the very nature of each Christian to do the good we ought to do. And this is why call our salvation as a true gift from God to us. No one earns it, it is a gift from God.

Cancelled post because the post I responded to I could not find.

This one could be deleted too. I just wanted to explain why I cancelled it.

Jesus audience were His people the Jews. There were no Christians among those He addressed, not even one, they were all Jews and all under the Mosaic Covenant. Had Jesus taught the New Covenant in lieu of the Mosaic Covenant, to His people who were strictly under the Mosaic [Old] Covenant, then Jesus would have violated the Mosaic Covenant, and that would have been a sin, which would have disqualified Jesus from being the Messiah.

Of course His audience were Jews, that has nothing to do with the content of the message and it simply does not logically follow that it would have been sin for Him to teach them New Covenant.

From the beginning Jesus taught the "gospel of the kingdom" and clearly this is the gospel seen throughout the rest of the New Testament. Just a few examples;

In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus said, "Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, ‘Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment’: but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, ‘Raca,’ shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, ‘Thou fool,’ shall be in danger of the hell of fire." The commandment He was referring to is found in Exodus 20 but we don't see anything like His comments in the Law of Moses. However if we look at 1 John 3:15 we see that Jesus' teaching is much more harmonious with John than with Moses.

In Matthew 19:3-9 we read, "And there came unto him Pharisees, trying him, and saying, "Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?"
And he answered and said, "Have ye not read, that he who made them from the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh?’ So that they are no more two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."
They say unto him, "Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorcement, and to put her away?"
He saith unto them, "Moses for your hardness of heart suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it hath not been so. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery."

Without any doubt, Jesus here establishes that Moses did concede to the Israelites their ability to divorce their wives per Deuteronomy 24:1-4, and that from the beginning this was not the desire of God and that under His Son divorce would condemn unless done for sexual immorality. The difference between the teachings of Jesus and the teachings of Moses are made clear with these two passages.

More strong evidence regarding the nature of Jesus’ teaching is found in John 14:26:

"But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you."

This promise was given to the disciples, and it was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2. If Jesus’ teachings were to be made irrelevant by the covenant established on the day of Pentecost, why would the Holy Spirit give the Apostles the remembrance of what Jesus taught them? Assuredly the memory of Jesus’ teachings are preserved in the New Testament, and we can see without a doubt that many of Jesus’ teachings were designed not for the Law of Moses but for the new covenant in His blood.

I believe that we can be certain that Jesus taught many things that we need to know and obey. I'm convinced that much of this idea that Jesus taught only Old Covenant is mainly an attempt to cloud what Jesus taught on marriage, divorce, and remarriage.

In Christ,

Ron

by theEphah on 2011/12/27 18:05:25

ArtB --

The point Jesus raised is that no one will be saved by keeping the Law of Moses, but that God is providing a different way for all to be saved.

This is an incorrect statement. There is nowhere in the scriptures that makes such a claim.

My reply is on the very next post which is on page 5.

by theEphah on 2011/12/27 18:05:25

ArtB --

The point Jesus raised is that no one will be saved by keeping the Law of Moses, but that God is providing a different way for all to be saved.

This is an incorrect statement. There is nowhere in the scriptures that makes such a claim.

I'm missing the context of your quote of what I wrote. I must have quoted Jesus, but I did not find this post, yet.

I just found it: Let me add the verses before 19:25 for clarity:

Mt 19:16-26

And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" 17 And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." 18 Then he said to Him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS; 19 HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; andYOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?" 21 Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.

23 And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 "Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Matt 19:25-26

"When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?" 26 And looking at them Jesus said to them, " With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Reading this in context, The Apostles, knowing how exceptional this young rich man at keeping the Mosaic Law, responds to what Jesus just said: 'who can be saved.' [under the Mosaic Law.] Which is the context of the text.

It is my view, this young rich man came closest to being saved by the Mosaic law, and this is why he came to the light 'Jesus', but Jesus found a sin that disqualified him from salvation under the Mosaic Law, it was his love of money more than God, which is idolatry.

In my view, this young rich man was exceptional in keeping the Mosaic Law, but as scriptures state, to receive the blessings of keeping the Mosaic Law, you must keep it all.

So I maintain my point that no one can be saved by keeping the whole Mosaic Law, and Jesus in these verses revealed this is so.

And here in Hebrews confirms the truth of my statement: "that no one will be saved by keeping the Law of Moses, but that God is providing a different way for all to be saved." And verses 18 and 19 in particular, but I provide all verse from Heb 7: 11-22 for context.

Heb 7:11-22

11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. 13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. 15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is attested of Him,

"YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER
ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK."

18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19(for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. 20 And inasmuch as it was not without an oath 21(for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him,

"THE LORD HAS SWORN
AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND,
'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER'");

22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. NASU

Thus salvation and eternal life, the life abundantly and good, is only achieved through the gospel of Jesus Christ, and not by the keeping of the Mosaic Laws.

as per:

Jn 3:16-18

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

and,

Jn 11:21-27
21 Martha then said to Jesus, " Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You." 23 Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."

24 Martha said to Him, " I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

Jesus said to her, " I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

I can not see how God could have made it any easier for us to be saved, have eternal life, and fellowship with God and each other, and the life abundant.

Unless we become Jesus Christ we will always fall short of the glory of God and be a continual disappointment.

Such frailties, such weaklings we are, a creation of failures. It boggles my mind why God who is perfect would demand perfect obedience from imperfect man.

I have to conclude that God must do that obedience through us by Himself (His Spirit). As He did with Jesus Christ so must He do the same through us.

My part is just to believe that He is able to do it.

My apologies for jumping in. It’s just that I haven’t seen some questions addressed yet? I tend to get concerned when I see a line of reasoning used to put presumptions into scriptures.

I am sure you are not suggesting a merging between human and deity? Yet it sounds like the popular teaching that my conscience is god, and I am moving towards goodness – becoming god? Also, how would you prevent this theological rationale here from sinking into passivity – which would be more reflective of eastern religions and new age thinking?

If believers have the mind of Christ (which tuc does not mention) does that mean we should make our mind passive recipients - and Christ will fill it with his? Where does good thinking and discernment fit in? Also, where does diligent study come into play? (These are scriptural mandates – to be obeyed ourselves.)

Also, if we can be declared perfectly obedient simply by gowning ourselves with the garment of Christ’s attributes – then where does grace fit in? And why would there be any need to wrestle over our flaws – or seek to change them through the life long process of spiritual maturation?
Why would there be a need for Hebrews 12 and other scriptures that refer to the process of faith growth through suffering – if it can happen far more simply: just believe that Jesus will do it all for you – right now.

And these questions:
Where does scripture say that I am to be Jesus Christ, and that he will do the obedience for me?

Keep thinking, folks. It may be worth looking also for verses that suggest the opposite. It’s part of the wrestling process.

Diane

I have to conclude that God must do that obedience through us by Himself (His Spirit). As He did with Jesus Christ so must He do the same through us.

John 6-38:-For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

Which means Jesus had his own will which he could have easily followed. But he did not follow his will but was obedient to the word of God even to the point of Death.

Hebrews 5-8:-Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.

Jesus suffered in his flesh, he was tempted in all ways like us, but he never Sinned, because he obeyed Holy Spirit. Same way if we obey the Holy Spirit saying no to flesh, then we have eternal Salvation. This is what our Moderator (Greg) posted today in his article from KP. This is True Obedience. Not to sit back and sin like how this thread says.

That is what I have been saying. God in Christ actually has given us the required perfect and absolute obedience.

We do have His Righteousness.
We have His Nature.
We have His Love.
We have His Faith.
WE have His Life.

The best part is that we have HIM!!

Again this is not same as saying 'God is doing the same work in us that he did in Jesus'. Because Jesus was made perfect due to his obedience to the word of God (Hebrews 5-8). I have proved in all your posts, there is no scripture that says that we are already made perfect and hence we can sit back and relax. The scriptures you have quoted so far are all taken out of context. So if this is the foundation of your salvation then it is a deception. Please do not spread this deception anymore.

Quote: """Again this is not same as saying 'God is doing the same work in us that he did in Jesus'. Because Jesus was made perfect due to his obedience to the word of God (Hebrews 5-8). I have proved in all your posts, there is no scripture that says that we are already made perfect and hence we can sit back and relax. The scriptures you have quoted so far are all taken out of context. So if this is the foundation of your salvation then it is a deception. Please do not spread this deception anymore."""

Paul is spreading this final Gospel, which is the Word of God fulfilled in the Mystery, which is Christ in you the hope of Glory. Gal 2:20 Christ in me is the foundation of my salvation. Col 1: 21-29 confirms this truth.

"If the Spirit of Christ be not in you, we are none of His.

We are either in Christ by the Father, or out by our own sin, not believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and He is born again in us, making us son's of God in Him. Col 1:29 Whereunto I also labouir, Striving according to His mighty works in me. Just like Gods mighty works in Jesus Christ, that He would be the spotless Lamb of God slain before the foundation of the world, that we might have His Faith, His life, His works in us by His Spirit that dwells in us through the Holy Spirit of Truth, presenting us to the Father Perfect: Col 1:28. Of which God Prestinated us to be in Christ and conform us to His image. Eph 1:4-5
Renewing our minds to the Mind of Christ which scripture say we now have.

In Christ: Phillip

The point I am trying to make is simple. I am not talking about Salvation here. Nor Am I saying that Santification is pure work of Man or Pure work of Holy Spirit or Both. I have my belief and it is purely scriptural. I can defend it any day. But I don't think that will bring a solution to this long lasting war between saints.

My Point is if you believe you are already saved and the Holy Spirit is making you like Jesus then you need to live like Jesus. Jesus was obedient to every command of God. The same way we need to be, and that is true obedience. If you believe it is pure work of Holy Spirit then it should be evident in your life. If you believe it is pure work of man then also it should be evident in your life. Or if you believe in Scripture that says both (man and Holy Spirit) like two wings of a bird then again it should be evident in your life. In all case the life of Jesus (obedience to God) should be evident in your life. If this obedience to God is not evident in your life but you believe you are saved and you are already perfect then you are deceiving yourself the truth is not in you (1 John 1-8).

Is the Spirit of Christ perfect?

Is the Holy Spirit perfect?

Is the Mind of Christ perfect?

Is the work of Jesus Christ in me perfect?

Is the work He has promised He will finish in us perfect?

I by my own self unto self am not perfect and could never be. That is why God the Father has birthed His Son in me, that I might be perfect in Christ and see the things of the Kindgom of which if I don't see, He has given the Holy Spirit and His own blood in vain. That not being true it takes the faith of Jesus Christ in me to be able to see His work in me. His work in me is the only perfection I can see. If God has put His perfect Son in me, he most certainly will not depend on my wisdom and power to keep me saved and conform me to His Son. Man can try all he wants to to make his salvation sure, but If God has any sillines or folly in Him it would still be stronger than the highest wisdom of man, and the weakness of God stronger that the strongest man. This is where becoming perfect in Christ, in Christ, not in self becomes Gods intended plan before the foundation of the world. EPH 1: 3-5

It is either God conforming me to the image of His Son, or its is me in self works, obedience trying to make myself like Christ. Impossible.

In Christ: Phillip

If we study Eph 1: we will see all that I have written. In Christ who fills and makes perfect, "all in all" His body the Church. verse 23 "That He might present to Himself a bride without spot or wrinkle which is His body the Church.

In Christ: Phillip

Ephesians 1:1-23 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

I stayed in Eph 1 for years and still don't have all the fullness of The Christ that is in me. These are the greatest words Jesus Christ gave to Paul to fulfill the word of God, The epitomy of all His Epistles.

By theEphah on 2011/12/30 16:15:32

"His commandments, the spirit of Yahshua our Messiah and soon coming King. How can we boldly claim that we a led by his spirit yet reject the very words that bring about his spirit in us? How?

Matthew 19:16 And behold, one came to Him, and said; Teacher, what righteous thing may I do, so that I may have eternal life? But He said to him, why do you question Me about righteousness? There is only One who is the Standard of Perfection, and that is Yahweh; so if you would enter into life, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.

These instructions are repeated throughout the scriptures, but we desperately try to conjure our own salvation. Let’s re-consider."

My reply:

The problem is that you and Sree ignore what we write, and you return to what is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

You both embrace the Mosaic law, but of course, you pick and chose what Mosaic Laws you choose to keep, and which ones you choose to not keep.

If you and another person who thinks like you do, if you both know two people committing adultery, you are required to stone them to death, and then hang them on a tree for all to see.

Do you have a parapet on your roof? That's a must.

Do you wear clothing containing two different types of thread? That's a no-no.

Do you learn the Torah and to teach it, including all 613 laws of Moses. (Deut. 6:7)

Have you written a scroll of the Torah for yourself (Deut. 31:19)

Do you recite grace after every meal? (Deut. 8:10)

Do you take care to not put any Jew to shame? (Lev. 19:17)

Do not to intermarry with gentiles, everyone under the Mosaic Law must be Jewish and must not marry a non-Jew. Deut. 7:3

Not to do work on Shabbat, Friday Sundown through Sundown Saturday. (Ex. 20:10)

You must rest on Shabbat (no yard work, no playing games, or anything like that) Ex. 23:12; 34:21

Not to delay payment of a hired man's wages (Lev. 19:13) You must pay a hired person on the day they perform the work.

However, you may have slaves and concubines, and more than one wife, if you can afford to do so, for you must provide for them.

So if you choose to be under the Mosaic Law, then you must keep all of it and are confined by it. A violation of one Mosaic Law disqualifies you from eternal life.

As for me, I am under the New Covenant of Jesus Christ with its' 3 Laws of Jesus Christ.

The Law of Love. Love God with all your being, and your neighbor as yourself.

The Law of Liberty. Mercy Triumphs over Judgement. By what measure you measure others, so shall you be measured. Judge not and you shall not be Judged. Forgive and you will be forgiven.

The Law of the Spirit of Life of Jesus Christ. True Christians have the indwelling Holy Spirit, 'God-in-me', whom works the will of God in us, changing our very nature over time, He is our helper that we may bear the good fruit God always desired we bear, and thereby we are in daily fellowship with God, just as if we were back in the Garden of Eden. It is God whom works in us who transforms us. We walk with Him and We talk with Him daily, and He makes changes in our life according to His good will, as we walk with Him daily via the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Phillip, your two posts here on page 6 reflect the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.

But I do not think they pay any attention with what we actually write, nor the scriptures we reference, Galatians, Ephesians, Romans, Hebrews, etc.

They also have no understanding of Contract Law. If you are a party to a valid Contract, you can not enter a 2nd Contract that is in violation of the former Contract that is still valid. That is what the Jews who wanted to put Jesus to death, they accused Jesus of teaching a New Covenant (Covenant = Law Contract). Jesus denied this vehemently, Jesus declared that He did not come to do away with the Mosaic Covenant, but to fulfill it. He assured them that not one stroke of the Law would be done away with until all is fulfilled. If he were pushing a New Contract on Israel, then He would have violated the Mosaic covenant, which would make Him a sinner, and that would have eliminated Jesus as the Paschal Lamb whose blood would take away the sins of all who believe in Him and accept his atoning blood as taking away all their sins for all time, no further sacrifice is required.

Upon the death of Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of the Father, God annihilated the entire Mosaic covenant per Zec 7 7-14). This scripture is very clear that God annihilated His only bi-lateral Covenant with the peoples, The Mosaic Covenant, and exactly when, when the 30 pieces of silver is thrown into the potters in the Temple.

They who reject what we write think God's requirement of us is that we must be sinless. A rock is sinless. God does not want hearts of stone. Holiness is not the absence of sin in our life, but rather, Holiness is the presence of God in our life.

David was certainly not sinless, but God loved David because David had firm faith in God, killing a lion, a bear, Killing Goliath, Killing the enemies of Israel, yet remaining subject to King Saul despite Saul's attempts to kill David because God anointed Saul to be King of Israel.

David believed God and had great Faith in God. David sinned, but God loved David because of his faith in Him.

King Saul did great deeds too and he too was anxious to please God, but unlike David, Saul kept taking matters into his own hands according to what he thought was right. He tried to please God by his works which he pursued, disregarding what God actually required of Him, Faith.

When Jesus died on the cross, He took the penalty of our sins upon Himself, that who-so-ever believes in Him and accepts His shed blood on the cross as a covering of all their sins for all time, no further sacrifices will be necessary, they Shall have eternal life.

King Saul had the mindset that is reflected in the song by Frank Sinatra, 'I Did It My Way.'And that is exactly what Saul did, He did not do it God's way, He meant well, He wanted to please God, Saul was a nice guy, but he disregarded God's way and went off on his own will, taking matters into his own hand, thinking he was pleasing God, and God rejected Him for his lack of faith. and chose David who did what God asked of Him, even though David committed adultery and murder, God forgave Him, though He did administer a punishment to David for his sins, but David was still pleasing to God and what we may call - SAVED eternally and loved by God.

by theEphah on 2011/12/31 10:43:19

"Dear ArtB, I'am sure you mean well but I must caution you, that our Savior himself told us to keep the Commandments Matthew 19:16.

Why are you suggesting that the Messiah is a liar, why?"

I did not suggest Jesus a liar. your confusing two different sets of Laws. You obviously have not read my posts or you would know what I wrote.

OT = The Mosaic Laws and NT = The Laws of Jesus Christ. Please read the book of Hebrews which makes it clear that the Laws of Christ are not the same as the Laws of Moses. Paul comments on this fact in many of His letters. The real problem is that you are not grasping the context of the related Scriptures. The Mosaic Law condemns everyone under it, it was our Tutor showing until Jesus Christ came it locked everyone up under sin and death. The Laws of Christ set us free from the Law of Sin and Death.

As to Matthew 16:19 - Is Jesus really talking to us Christians, I do not think so. Jesus was talking to His fellow Jews, and only His Fellow Jews, in Matthew 19:16.

And Contrary to what some people mistakenly do believe, Jesus was not talking to us Christians, nor was He preaching the New Covenant to His fellow Jews.

He was addressing His fellow Jews, but not about the New Covenant, He was teaching them to keep the Mosaic Covenant. And, in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus discourse was brilliant in explaining the proper heart attitude required in order to have a chance on keeping the Mosaic law.

Jesus said: "He who lust in his heart after another man's wifehas already committed adultery." Jesus point was that the thought of having sex with a married woman will sooner or later lead to adultery when the opportunity to do so presents itself.

Jesus said: "He who hates his brother (i.e. his fellow Jew) is already guilty of murdering his brother." Why? Because hate is the seed that leads to murder.

And, consider this:

Mt 15:22-28

a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed."

23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, "Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us."

24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

[Ephah, who was Jesus sent to? Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel, and not to gentiles.}

25 But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord, help me!"

26 And He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."

Jesus referred to non-Jews (i.e. gentiles) as dogs who are unworthy of the bread of His Children, descendants of Israel. On the Contrary, The New Covenant would be for Jews and gentiles, and obviously, from Jesus's words, the New Covenant was not in existence yet, and He certainly would not be teaching the New Covenant to His fellow Jews. to do so would have been a violation of the Mosaic Covenant.

27 But she said, "Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters' table." 28 Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.

So why did Jesus change His mind when she persisted for His help, even agreeing with Jesus that 'she is like a dog, but do not even dogs eat from their masters table.' She had great faith. And if you know the OT, GOD never changes His mind. But it is God's very nature to be merciful, and when we contritely put ourselves under God's mercy, it is then God's very nature to move from judgment to Mercy. God did not change, the circumstances changed. God will always be God. He will switch from judgment to Mercy to those who put themselves under His mercy. If you do not understand, ask me and I will show you this is true in the OT. It is God's nature to be merciful to those who seek His mercy. And to remain in Judgement of those who hearts are obstinate and unbending, such as those who perished during THE EXODUS.

Jesus did not teach the New Covenant until after His death, upon which the Mosaic Covenant was annihilated, paving the way for the New Covenant. The NT book of Hebrews clearly states that Jesus is of a New Everlasting Priesthood of Melchizedek, a very superior Priesthood than the Leviticus Priesthood based upon the Mosaic covenant. Hebrews states that were there is change in priesthood, there is also a change of Law, and that the Mosaic Laws were useless and worthless in that they could not save anyone.

So why do you wish to reject God's mercy of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ, and place yourself back under the annihilated Mosaic Covenant by which no one can be saved.

Communists use to recruit people to communism by claiming they could put a poor worker into a new suit.

True Christianity makes the opposite claim, those who accept Gospel of Jesus Christ, God will put a NEW MAN into whatever suit, or whatever type dress one wears, via the indwelling Holy Spirit. God will accomplish His will in us who have come to Him and accepted the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This is the point where we change from God's Judgement to God's mercy.

I cannot buy this argument no matter how big your post is. It only makes me wonder how powerfully people are deceived and their hearts are shut to truth.

Jesus said this to the Gentile women in Matthew 15 because he wanted to test her faith. The same way he tested the faith of many before he healed them. Testing the faith does not mean Jesus did not intend to heal them.

There is some truth though, Jesus did not ask his disciples to go to Gentiles when he sent the 12 in Matthew 10:5. He asked them not to go to Gentiles, because the time of Gentiles has not come yet. God made a covenant with Gentiles only after the death of Jesus over his blood. So after his resurrection he sent them to all corners of the world (Acts 1-10). But the message is the same.

If Jesus did not proclaim anything related to NT then how did he talk about eating his body?

John 6 -53:-
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

Is this also Law? Again I know you will not have answer, just like you have no answer to book of 1 John 1 and 2.

To summarize then if John 6-53 is NT then what Jesus spoke in all his 3 and half years of preaching is also NT. If not then according to you Jesus is a sinner.

Hi theEphah, actually the "law of liberty" does exist, ArtB is not making it up. He just ignores the biblical meaning of it and replaces it with his own. Let's check what it really does refer to:

James 1:25  But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

So the blessing is for the doer, not for the hearer. Ok, but doer of what?

James 2:11  For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Clearly James talks about the 10 commandments. Who is it by the way that said "Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill" It was, is , and will be Jesus. He doesn't think in human formulas, he stays the same and always teaches the same.

Here another reference to these commandments:

Ephesians 6:2  Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;) That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

The promise of the blessing does exist NOW. Paul says do that and you wil receive the promise of a long life. If one commandment is valid, all 10 commandments are valid. Now. Yes New Covenant Now, The perfect law of liberty. The living have no problem with that, they will be blessed and will have a long life on earth.

Well, the KJV really is more truthful here than the NIV, because it's not the law that gives freedom as the NIV suggests. And also does not have the power to set us free from sin, as you suggest. We just exercise our freedom we have in Christ by faith and don't break Jesus' commandments because of it. It's entirely reversed. The born again ones have the liberty not to sin or break God's laws. The others do not have this liberty, they are still in bondage to the flesh and its desires. That is the factual law of liberty and our freedom in Jesus Christ. We have the freedom not to sin, they don't.

The Law of Liberty simply means that God's commandments are not burdensome to us any more. The Holy Spirit will make it a pleasure for us to be obedient to God like how Jesus was obedient to God in all his sufferings. Jesus still rejoiced.

So if we are under this New Covenant Law of Liberty we will never see the Teachings of Jesus as burdensome but instead we will believe like what Paul Believed in Philippians 4-13:-I can do all things in him that strengtheneth me.

So even keeping the commands of Jesus are possible and it will not be a burden to us. The fact that some posters say it is impossible to keep these teachings of Jesus is a clear indication that they have no idea about Law of Liberty and hence they are not under New Covenant.

"So even keeping the commands of Jesus are possible and it will not be a burden to us. The fact that some posters say it is impossible to keep these teachings of Jesus is a clear indication that they have no idea about Law of Liberty and hence they are not under New Covenant."

hear hear ! Someone has to say it as it is, and I must agree. This one sentence comes to mind:

Acts 5:32  And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Hey Ephah, i can understand your logic and it's in part about semantics. But if you really meditate on it for a while and think through what is expressed in total you might one day come around and see that the expression used in th KJV is not only the best, it is in fact the only one that is true here.

You have to think about what real liberty as used by James really is, he also introduced another term to describe the same thing "royal law" to make the distinction that signifies its status in the new covenant. Royal, because he talks about the creme of the crop, 10 commands exclusively, nothing else, no extras. James does not mean freedom from the Law, but he brings liberty into the mix to make our relationship clear.

I understand your quest for rightheousness, i really do, especially in response to these mindblowing non-biblical, non-christian theories on this thread, but you need to study the relationship of grace, faith, law in regard to rightheousness and justification a bit longer. When you have the balance about right you might agree that the expression "law of liberty" as used by James is the only one that speaks Godly truth, and not human reasoning. It's in most perfect balance with the full teachings of Jesus, Paul and John.

In stark contrast to the NIV, that expresses either catholic and/or jesuit thoughts. Try to study the life of their translators from a source independant of American Bible seminaries - and you will see why. Unfortunately Americans always have been so 'politically correct' that they didn't notice the complete takeover by the jesuits of their Bible seminaries.

good day brethern

i think it is worth noting that jesus promised to give the holy spirit to those who are obedenet

he after this promise gives he, the holy spirit, to his apostals and desiples

so we can be sure that they were obedent to his commands

what does he mean by obedence ,,,,,,if we look at peter we no he was obedent,,but comited sin by dening his master and cuting of in violence the ear of one who arested jesus

but peter repented of these sins and was resored stronger then ever ,,tho the book of acts records he became a hipocreat along with the others and barnabus,and was rebuked by paul for not teaching the gosple propley

so if we define obedence by looking at peters obedence ,,we dont see a sinless obedence contiualy ,,,,,but we see mistakes and sin ,,but a true sinsear repentece in cobination witha sinsear atempt to do what he knew was right

so even tho he denied christ befor men he was still accounted as obedent to christ ,thus recieving the holy spirit baptisim ,as a seal of righteousness

so accoring to this example obedence is not defined as sinless perfection ,or a perfect ability to keep the commands of jesus

so brothers i will go with bibilcal examples of infalable situations, to define what obeadence means ,,rather

then an interpatation of what we think is being said regarding this issue

examples dont need intreprtation in the same manner

bless you all

by Sree on 2012/1/1 7:14:36

The Law of Liberty simply means that God's commandments are not burdensome to us any more. The Holy Spirit will make it a pleasure for us to be obedient to God like how Jesus was obedient to God in all his sufferings. Jesus still rejoiced.

So if we are under this New Covenant Law of Liberty we will never see the Teachings of Jesus as burdensome but instead we will believe like what Paul Believed in Philippians 4-13:-I can do all things in him that strengtheneth me.

So even keeping the commands of Jesus are possible and it will not be a burden to us. The fact that some posters say it is impossible to keep these teachings of Jesus is a clear indication that they have no idea about Law of Liberty and hence they are not under New Covenant.

Sree, you finally wrote something that I completely agree with, and it is a statement that is consistent with my prior posts, but with the sole exception that I do not Judge who is and who is not saved under the New Covenant of Jesus Christ. I Judge no one. I simply share my understanding of the Good News of Jesus Christ.

a-servant, picking and choosing bits of scripture to make a point easily lends itself to misunderstanding. And you do so with James 2:11:

A Servant wrote:

"James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Clearly James talks about the 10 commandments. Who is it by the way that said "Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill" It was, is , and will be Jesus. He doesn't think in human formulas, he stays the same and always teaches the same.

Let us return context of the meaning of the 'LAW OF LIBERTY' as James, the brother of Jesus, actually defines it, BY ADDING the next two versus that a-servant did not quote, but should have for proper context.

Jas 2:12-13
SO SPEAK AND SO ACT AS THOSE WHO ARE TO BE JUDGED BY THE LAW OF LIBERTY. FOR JUDGEMENT WILL BE MERCILESS TO ONE WHO HAS SHOWN NO MERCY; MERCY TRIUMPHS OVER JUDGMENT. NASU

I'm sure James learned this from his brother Jesus.

Mt 7:1-3

" Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you." NASU

And from the Gospel of Luke, Jesus teaches the meaning of the Law of Liberty and exactly what it encompasses.

Lk 6:27-38
7 "But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either. 30 "Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back. Treat others the same way you want them to treat you. If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. If you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners in order to receive back the same amount. But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. 36 "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

37 " Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned. 38 "Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure — pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return."
NASU

Now the Mosaic Law on adultery is that upon two credible witnesses, the couple committing adultery must be stoned to death, then they shall be hung on a tree for all to see.

Jesus tightened the the requirements on adultery, when He said to His fellow Jews, that if you lust on a married woman in your heart, you have already committed adultery in your heart.

On the other hand, when a group of Jewish men came to Jesus pointing out a woman caught in adultery, and they asked Jesus to condemn her to death. Jesus of course knew she committed adultery. rather than replying right away, Jesus knelt down and started writing in the dirt. As the accusers saw what Jesus was writing, one by one they walked away. And when they left, Jesus spoke to the adulteress, 'Has no one accused you,

Jn 8:1-11
But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. Early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people were coming to Him; and He sat down and began to teach them. The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court, they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act. Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?" 6 They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground.

7 But when they persisted in asking Him, He [Jesus] straightened up, and said to them, " He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

8 Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court. Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?" 11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, " I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more." NASU

What did Jesus write on the ground, we do not exactly know, but each accuser of the adulteress woman, reading what Jesus wrote, must have became aware that Jesus knew their sin that and they too would be severely punished under the Mosaic Law. So they walked away. A very big change from their initial purpose of having Jesus Judge the adulteress.

This is the essence of the Law of Liberty, Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.

It does not have to be about causing some ones death.

Gossip is a form of putting one to death socially, in the eyes of others, thereby causing a social death as the victim is judged and put to 'social' death by rumors.

We are not under the Mosaic Laws. Under the Mosaic Laws adultery is death, upon the words of two valid witnesses, by stoning and being Hung on a tree for all to see. Failure to do so is a violation of the Mosaic Law.

As Christians, if we commit adultery, God will forgive us of the act of adultery if we contritely confess the sin of adultery. For God is merciful and loving to His children.

1 Jn 1:5-10
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;

7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
NASU

Jesus explained the Law of Liberty in this manner:

" Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned. Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure — pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return."

I do not Judge any of you. But I will live by the words of Jesus Christ and His three Laws of the New Covenant, and not by the Laws of Moses.

And nothing I have ever written claims that adultery, stealing, or worshiping idols is now Okay.

In light of such a great salvation of the gospel, God's love for me, the Love of Christ in my heart, the fellowship I now have with God through Jesus.

Do I sin? Yes I do sin regularly, not that I want to, but I have my moments of mistakes, misunderstandings, foolish choices, weaknesses, and just plain stupidity. When I do sin, I confess them to God and I know He is faithful to forgive my sins and to cleanse me from all unrighteousness. I love Him, I do not think often about sin, but I think a lot about my Love relationship with God. I am very quick to forgive others who sin against me, for if I do not, God will not forgive me. Even if they continue to sin against me, it hurts, but I forgive and still treat them as forgiven. And God will do the same for me, because I believe His Word.

Lysa, yes, the young ruler could not enter The KINGDOM God has prepared for us, and have eternal life, the life abundant spoke of by Jesus, because no one could be saved by the keeping of the Mosaic Law. Again, THERE WAS NO CHRISTIANS, NO NEW COVENANT, WHEN JESUS SPOKE THESE WORDS.

Jesus spoke to the rich Jewish man, who probably was the closest human to ever keep the Mosaic Law except for Jesus who kept the entire Mosaic Law, and then took upon Himself. not the blessings He deserved for keeping the Mosaic Laws, but rather, He took upon Himself the punishments as of one who broke the Law, and He took them upon Himself in our place, being the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

Jesus was simply inferring that no one will be saved by Keeping the Laws of Moses. God annihilated the Mosaic Covenant with its' 613 laws (Zechariah 11 7-14), upon the death of Jesus Christ, and He established the New Covenant upon His resurrection. That is when Jesus began to openly reveal the New Covenant. as predicted in the Old Testament, to His disciples, and then to commission them to spread this 'Good News' all over the world, that people will Here Jesus words of salvation and calling to Christianity, for His sheep know His voice, and missionaries bring His word to His children, that they may hear HIS voice and come to Him.

May God richly bless you too, Lysa.

Brother Gary,

Nice Post

The rich young man still had a chance of redemption unless he died before Jesus was in His resurrection and assention. He still had the choice of believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and be saved. The Cross changed all when it came to salvation.

In Christ: Phillip

How many were crucified, even upside down, heads chopted off, and stoned, sent to the Isle of Patmos, for preaching the Gospel of Grace and leaving behind the Law?

John, Peter, Paul, Stephen, Philip, Jesus and all those that will not come under the Law but Keep the witness of Jesus Chrsit, to this day.

In Christ, In Christ, In Christ: Phillip

Good point regarding Isaiah. That one is tuned out in modern understanding as there is "no more condemnation" under grace. That's why especially a nation like America couldn't possibly qualify for it. I think this will be a very costly lesson to learn when reality finally settles in.

Lately, because of the info that comes out of usually good informed circles that Iran will be provoked into a confrontation this year in 2012, what basically guarantees the involvment of Russia or/and China,

I was wondering if there is any connection between:

Isaiah 13:17  Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

and:

Daniel 8:20  The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia

(Irak and Iran)

ever looked into this, anybody ?

Agree with everything you said Jesus-is-GOD, .... cannot fully see the chronology of it yet, especially when I put Isaiah and Daniel together, possibly Iran has more than one role to play, pre-antichrist and pre-Day of The Lord.

Or: another explanation is, these events are so close together, let's say just about 42 months, and a few days, that Isaiah saw them as belonging together as one related time segment.

Revelation 7:3, another interesting one theEphah, you're only the second person i ever heard touching on that. Isn't that related to Passover? Or can it be expected at any time of year? And yes, Iran was in the pipeline for years, but just now they seem getting ready for it, it's somehow synchronized with a decline or default of the Euro, or possibly all paper currencies.

[quote Ephah] ArtB, how many times in the scripture was anyone actually stoned to death under the Law? My point exactly.

Your point exactly? What point is would that be?

1.\tThat the Old Testament is a book that records every sin of God’s chosen people’s and their punishments for breaking any of the Mosaic Law, and it was rare that anyone committed a sin that required stoning to death.

2.\tThat the Israelites were so virtuous and near perfect in keeping the Mosaic Law that the punishments of violating any of the commandments were incredible low. If this were true, then what need was there for Jesus to come as the Messiah and establish a far superior New Covenant in His Name, which clearly by Scripture supplants the Mosaic Covenant.

[quote Ephah]The Laws go hand in hand with the statutes and judgement, the Messiah knew the Laws, he knew that it took a special priest, sinless; to pronounce the death sentence on anyone. That's why the people left because they knew Yahshua was right.

You are mistaken Ephah.

Here is God's instructions for conducting a trial of someone accused of breaking the Mosaic law.

Dt 19:15-20
15 " A single witness shall not rise up against a man on account of any iniquity or any sin which he has committed; on the evidence of two or three witnesses a matter shall be confirmed. If a malicious witness rises up against a man to accuse him of wrongdoing, then both the men who have the dispute shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges who will be in office in those days. The judges shall investigate thoroughly, and if the witness is a false witness and he has accused his brother falsely, then you shall do to him just as he had intended to do to his brother. Thus you shall purge the evil from among you.”

[quote Ephah] Secondly, those that insisted that the woman should be stoned were not ignorant of the Law, they knew it, they just didn't keep it just like we do today. They were ridiculing the Law when they told Yahshua to stone the woman because after all, she committed adultery and the law says we should stone her right? But the Savior knew what they were up to and shunned them.

Yes, they knew the Law. They were the eyewitnesses to that woman’s adultery, not Jesus, though Jesus knew it was true. They came to Jesus to act as the Judge. Jesus would be the true Chief Rabbi and Judge of Israel if He were truly the Messiah. Jesus did not come to condemn His people, but to save them. Jesus had an advantage in that He knew their past sins too. I believe that what Jesus wrote in the dirt was clues that revealed to each accuser of the woman some serious sin they were guilty of that was punishable under the Mosaic Laws, and one by one they walked away for fear that they too would be Judged of their own sins.

[quote Ephah] This is exactly the attitude of people today, they make fun of the law and ridicule those who strive to obey them as per scripture. Nothing has changed. We have the same stiff neck rebellious people who have defiled the earth because;

Are you really claiming that it is I that is a stiff neck rebellious person who defiles the earth?

And that you the one are strives to please God by obeying the Mosaic law with its’ 613 commandments. as applicable to you.?

Are you indeed keeping all of the 613 commandments that actually apply to you?

I do realize that some Mosaic Laws concern the Land, Some the Temple, Some just for the priests, Some for just for women. About 350 of the 613 Laws would actually apply to you.

Do you even know all of them?

Have you been observing these Mosaic Laws that do apply to you?

If so, then exactly what has Jesus our Messiah accomplished for you?

[quote Ephah] they have disobeyed the laws, violated the statutes AND BROKEN THE EVERLASTING COVENANT.Isaiah 24:5
Wow, EVERLASTING? you mean that covenant is forever? No way! it can't be, we'll just follow our instincts. Let's just follow the so called "Law of Liberty" surely that sounds much better; even though I have posted overwhelming proof that James 1:25 is referring to the Law. All 613. I will post it again for conversation sake.

Lets expand your quote of Isaiah 24:5 TO SEE IF IT SAYS WHAT YOU THINK IT SAYS is true.

Isa 24:1-6
Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants. 2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor. 3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled, for the LORD has spoken this word. 4 The earth mourns and withers, the world fades and withers, the exalted of the people of the earth fade away. 5 The earth is also polluted by its inhabitants, for they transgressed laws, violated statutes, broke the everlasting covenant. 6 Therefore, a curse devours the earth, and those who live in it are held guilty. Therefore, the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men are left.
These are the events after the Rapture of all true Christians and the age of grace has come to an end. Jude predicts the world will be destroyed by fire.

God made several Everlasting Covenants, but the Mosaic Covenant is not one of them.

God’s Everlasting Covenants:
1. Genesis 9:16 The Everlasting Covenant of the Rainbow.

2. Ge 17:6-8 The Abrahamic Covenant "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."

3. The Everlasting Covenant of the land of Canaan Gen 17:7
4. The Everlasting Covenant of Circumcision. Gen: 17:13
5. The Everlasting Covenant of salt. Lev 24:8

Obviously, Christians are not under the Everlasting Covenant of the Land, the Everlasting Covenant of Circumcision, The Everlasting Covenant of salt, nor the everlasting Abrahamic Covenant.

OT:5769 Owlam: properly, concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always:

Since you like the KJV, the translations of Owlam in the KJV are

KJV - alway (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time),
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Now let’s address The Mosaic laws under the New Covenant.

Zec 11:1-6 Open your doors, O Lebanon, That a fire may feed on your cedars.
2 Wail, O cypress, for the cedar has fallen, Because the glorious trees have been destroyed; Wail, O oaks of Bashan, For the impenetrable forest has come down.

3 There is a sound of the shepherds' wail, for their glory is ruined; There is a sound of the young lions' roar, for the pride of the Jordan is ruined.

The Jewish Rabbi’s, even today, believe that these verses are the prophecy of the destruction of Herod’s Temple in 70 AD.

4 Thus says the LORD my God, "Pasture the flock doomed to slaughter.

5 "Those who buy them slay them and go unpunished, and each of those who sell them says, 'Blessed be the LORD, for I have become rich!' And their own shepherds have no pity on them.

6 "For I will no longer have pity on the inhabitants of the land," declares the LORD; "but behold, I will cause the men to fall, each into another's power and into the power of his king; and they will strike the land, and I will not deliver them from their power."

Zec 11:7-14
7 So I pastured the flock doomed to slaughter, hence the afflicted of the flock. And I took for myself two staffs: the one I called Favor and the other I called Union; so I pastured the flock.

8 Then I annihilated the three shepherds in one month, for my soul was impatient with them, and their soul also was weary of me.

9 Then I said, "I will not pasture you. What is to die, let it die, and what is to be annihilated, let it be annihilated; and let those who are left eat one another's flesh."

10 I took my staff Favor and cut it in pieces, to break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples.

11 So it was broken on that day, and thus the afflicted of the flock who were watching me realized that it was the word of the LORD.

12 I said to them, "If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but if not, never mind!" So they weighed out thirty shekels of silver as my wages.

13 Then the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them." So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

14 Then I cut in pieces my second staff Union, to break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.

Ephah, do you have any idea what this Prophecy Zechariah actually means? Exactly what Flock has God pastured? Is it not the offspring of Judah for about 2000 years? The Three Shepherds of Israel that God annihilates in this prophecy, are they not the King, the Leviticus Priests, and the experts on The Mosaic Laws called the lawyers. Or perhaps the last two may be the Pharisees and the Sadducees, both of whom Jesus severely chastised for being hypocrites and self-serving in a very worldly way.

In verse 10, what Covenant is God actually breaking with His people the Jews. The answer is easy to know. God breaks His covenant that He made with His peoples. God made only one bilateral Covenant with the peoples, the Mosaic Covenant. The people of the Exodus included Jews and gentiles from Egypt.

When was the Mosaic Covenant annihilated, it was after Judas betrayed Jesus, which had to be after Judas learned that Pilate caved in to the crowd and condemned Jesus to death by Crucifixion. Judas was remorseful for what he did and went to the Temple to the high priest and elders, and Judas threw the money on the floor after they refused to take it. They took the money and bought Potters field for burial purposes. Upon Jesus death, per the Prophecy of Zechariah, God annihilated the Mosaic Covenant.
Upon His resurrection, Jesus plainly revealed to His Apostles the New Covenant in Jesus name which replaces the Mosaic Covenant.

Christians ought to know what Covenant they are under.

[quote Ephah]He did not die for me to continue polluting the sanctuary by transgressing his laws.

And is that what you believe that I am advocating?

I asked you: "If so, then exactly what has Jesus our Messiah accomplished for you?"

I did not ask you what you are doing on your own efforts apart from Jesus.

[quote Ephah]The law is Spirit, John 6:63 It is that spirit that sets you free from the bondage of sin. Do you know what that means? you have no desire to sin willfully. It's truly a blessing to know the will of the father and abide by it.

This is very true, Ephah.

Sree, you finally wrote something that I completely agree with, and it is a statement that is consistent with my prior posts, but with the sole exception that I do not Judge who is and who is not saved under the New Covenant of Jesus Christ. I Judge no one. I simply share my understanding of the Good News of Jesus Christ.

No we are not on the same track. You never mentioned that the Commands (or teachings) of Jesus can be kept by born again believers. If you have said that then may be I misread your post.
I believe we can live like Jesus not seeing his life (including this teachings) as a burden but as a pleasure through the power of Holy Spirit. This is New Covenant life, a spirit lead life, where each and everyone of us are predistined to be like Jesus and each and everyday we LIVE more LIKE Jesus. The difference between what I say and what the original poster says is this - the external manifestation of this New Covenant life (Christlikeness) will be and should be visible if not then the person is not under new covenant. This is not a deliberate external showing of life, but it is a change of life that will be witnessed by people around you like wife, colleagues, children etc.

People who do not live a changed life but proclaim that they are already Christlike because of some work accomplished by Jesus are liars and the truth is not in them. What they consider as faith is not a faith at all it is a blind acceptance of a lie. 1 JOHN 2-4.

Now I did not judge anyone, I never mentioned anything like people are not SAVED. I don't believe Salvation can be referred in Pastence by a word called SAVED. Salvation is a continuous process.

Sree and Blaine, I agree with both posts you each posted, directly above.

Paul kept the Law also, but he counted it all rubbish for the excellancy of the knowledge of Jesus Christ. Christ is our only perfection, in Him we are perfect, the only One who fulfilled the Law, that Law being sin and death. In the flesh we are dead to God, in the Spirit we are alive unto God. In Christ we are free, free indeed. Keeping the Laws keep us under the Law, it condemns us to death. In Christ His Laws are fulfilled in us, that we might live in Him to God our Father. Even if I could keep all the Law perfect, it would not give me life, salvation, Justification, Sanctification or even redemption, that is in Christ and Christ alone. The Law is perfect and Christ is the only perfect One, and in Him the Only One, we are only perfect. Self unto Self, if Self is on the throne and keeping all the Laws to make myself perfect, I am of all people most miserable. If I fail in the Law once, I am judged by the Law and deserve death, That is why Jesus Christ died in my place that I might attain unto perfection in Christ by He that is born again in me, John says we don't sin if we are born from above, this is the only way I can be saved and be perfect before the God of all perfection, in Christ who is our only hope of glory.

Keeping the Law is wonderful and gives us self satisfaction, unless I am giving all the glory to God who has placed His sinless only begotten Son in me that I might live unto Him. If I strive to keep the Laws, in self I will fail, in Christ we have and advocate with the Father, then "if we confess our failure God is faithful and just, because of His Son that is in me, to cleanse me and forgive me of all sin.

In Christ and Christ alone is my salvation sure, He is the One that I am concerned with, He and Only He by His work of me being conformed to His image, He is the only perfection I have. If I glory I am assured that my Glory is in Him, not my keeping the law.

He did die that I might not pollute His sanctuary for He is the sanctuary and I am in Him and He is in me with the Father and the Holy Spirit also. I have the whole bucket of Grace all at once birthed in me, I cannot get more of Christ than what has been given, all, not parts and peaces which I try in vain to attain. It is Christ in me that make me perfect before God the Father, not the Law, of which I now strive to keep because of my Love affair with Jesus Christ that is in me, by whom I can approach the throne of Grace boldly, by the life of Christ I now strive to live by His working in me.

In Christ: Phillip

Nice post Phillip.

Thank you ArtB, by the mercies of God and His Holy Spirit teacher of Christ, as in all your posts also.

In Christ: Phillip

Yes, I live by the Faith of the Son of God.

In Christ: Phillip

Curious why you ask.

Found something noteworthy for the defenders of liberty from the liberty roots camp of King David:

Psalms 119:43  And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I have hoped in thy judgments.
44  So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.
45  And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.
46  I will speak of thy testimonies also before kings, and will not be ashamed.
47  And I will delight myself in thy commandments, which I have loved.
48  My hands also will I lift up unto thy commandments, which I have loved; and I will meditate in thy statutes.

And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.

See, that's the original meaning of liberty, not to be confused with the NYC sellout version of a french revolutionary holding the torch of illumination.

Babylon's liberty and the liberty in Christ are not identical ! don't be confused about words, look into what they stand for, and what spirit they are powered by

2 Corinthians 3:17  Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

the Spirit of the Lord is holy, it cannot be unholy. We must define liberty accordingly based on that understanding to get the real meaning, and not how some people use the expression.

Martyr, my answer is yes.