The Trouble with "Lordship Salvation" - Eli Brayley

(paragraphs edited for easier reading)

I have come to be convinced that the whole point of Christianity is knowing God the Father through Jesus Christ, and in that knowledge we find salvation and rest, peace and eternal life, because through Christ crucified we learn that God is a God of grace.

This grace is righteous, and is expressed at the cross where both God's wrath against us and His amazing love for us come to a head. This is the place of the revelation of the Father through Christ, and if we have seen Him we have seen the Father, and that is enough.

I am greatly grieved over the so-called Lordship preaching that is so common throughout the Christian church, and such preachers completely fail to communicate what Christianity is to their hearers. These men have made faith and obedience indistinguishable, and in so doing they are making Christianity indistinguishable from every other religion.

Many would argue this point, but even though our religion may have its own distinctive facts, like the virgin birth of Jesus, and Jesus walking on water, and the resurrection, and the second coming of Christ the King, if we lose the message of the gospel of grace we are essentially no different than the other religions, which are all based upon works-based righteousness.

What makes the gospel the gospel is that it is the good news of what God has done for us sinners, and we are called to believe that news and have rest and peace in believing. The gospel is the revelation of righteousness through faith alone (Rom. 1:16-17) which alone reveals to us the love of God for us (Rom. 5:8).

Before I was born again I believed in the fact that Jesus had died on the cross for my sins, but I didn't understand the meaning of that fact, and I thought that He did what He did so that if I obeyed His commandments and lived rightly, then I would partake in His salvation. I believed exactly like these preachers, but I was lost, and was full of guilt. I wasn't believing the truth, for the truth sets you free. It was not until I understood the meaning of the death of Christ that I finally had peace with God and received the assurance that I had eternal life.

It wasn't until I understood that God sent Christ to die for me while I was a sinner, and that the work of redemption was finished, and that God had forgiveness for me as a sinner, that my guilt instantly left me. It was not until I understood that God's heart was full of grace for me, that I believed in His goodness and found rest.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2:8-9) Notice this verse doesn't explicitly mention either Jesus Christ or the cross. That is because the cross of Christ is found inside the word grace. We are saved by grace (that is, the undeserved love of God for sinners expressed in the redeeming death of Jesus Christ for our sins), through faith.

Faith is not what saves us, but it is the means through which the grace of God saves me. I think it was Spurgeon who likened it to swallowing: my hunger is not alleviated by swallowing, but through swallowing. It is by food that I am filled, through swallowing. If I don't swallow the food I will never be filled, but I can swallow all day without food and nothing will happen.

Thus it is the object of our faith that makes all the difference, and when I have faith in the right object (the grace of God), then it, the object, saves me. The object of our faith - what we are believing as Christians - is that Christ died for our sins and rose again, and that what this reveals is the forgiving heart that God has for sinners. It tells us that God is love, what kind of love it is, and thus we believe and rest in God.

Paul explicitly denies that work has anything to do with the means of salvation; and of course it doesn't, if the above is the whole point. The moment you require any work to be done in order to receive salvation, you have unwittingly changed everything. It is no longer about us looking to see who God is, but it is then about God looking to see who we are. Of course, the lesson of the law is that when God looks to see who is good, He finds no one. All this amounts to a line from a song: "We don't need religion... we could use the love of God."

Christ calls us to come unto Him and rest. He calls us to believe in Him, and in so doing, to believe in the Father (John 12:44). The trouble with Lordship salvation doctrine is that it sends people away looking to themselves and what they need to do in order to be saved, rather than to believing in the Father and what He has done for them through Jesus Christ.

As truly right as it is to serve God (for this is what the law requires), Christ shows us that the gospel is ultimately about God serving us, and not us serving God. Sounds blasphemous, but Christ said to a man who felt that way: "If I do not wash your feet, you have no part with me."

This man then said, "Give me the full treatment!" The gospel leads to us serving God, but it itself is about God serving us. God came into the world, not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give His life a ransom for many. For those who see God, they cannot help but worship and adore Him. But that worship is only inspired when we see that God loved us and gave Himself for us, not when we think otherwise.

"Unto Him that loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood... to Him be glory and honor and dominion and power forever and ever!" It is the sight of the slain Lamb that does this. Why did the woman serve Christ, by washing His feet with her tears?

It was because "he that is forgiven much loves much." She was not serving Him in order to be forgiven. She was serving Him, spontaneously and deeply, because she could not stop thinking about how beautiful Christ was, to love and forgive an unworthy sinner like her.

But what about taking up your cross? This, I am convinced, has nothing to do with the proverbial "Die to self" mantra that is so often heard in cultural Christian circles. The common idea is that Jesus is speaking spiritually, and we need to say "no" to our sinful desires and "yes" to obedience. I believe this devotional interpretation of Christ's words is a product of our western culture, where for the most part Christians don't experience much persecution from their families and communities.

But Jesus was actually crucified, and He promised that the world would likewise hate you on account of Him. "They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time will come when whoever kills you will think they are doing God a service: and this they will do, because they do not know the Father, nor me." (John 16:2-3) It is real persecution that Christ has in view when He tells us that we must take up our cross if we are going to follow Him.

By believing in the grace of God, the world will despise you, ridicule you, and even kill you. How interesting that it is the religious world that Christ has in view: they are those who do not know the Father, but think that salvation is all ultimately about serving God and obeying the law. Challenge that idea, and watch the story of Cain and Abel unfold again. Therefore, Christ forewarns, if you believe in me you, be prepared to lose family members, friends, and maybe even your own life; but it is worth it. Take up your cross and follow me.

It is the gospel itself, the grace of God, the knowledge of the forgiveness of sins through faith alone, that gives us peace and provokes the animosity of the world. We must not allow ourselves to miss the point, and fail to see what Christianity is all about.

If we add anything to being saved beside simple faith in Jesus Christ, we not only will find ourselves with a religion no different than all the rest, but we will have lost the true knowledge of God, and eternal life. So everything is at stake.

http://www.timothyministry.com/2011/11/trouble-with-lordship-salvation.html

please as well: http://www.timothyministry.com/2011/12/antinomianism.html

Quote: "These men have made faith and obedience indistinguishable, and in so doing they are making Christianity indistinguishable from every other religion."

Actually Faith and Obedience are absoluely linked.

See Acts 6:7; Romans 6:16; Romans 10:16; 1 Peter 4:17 as a small selection.

Not that I am promoting works salvation, oh not at all, but true faith is obedience to the gospel as our brother Frank says.

Did any of you read Eli's articles or just went right ahead and started writing your thougts?

Krispy I asked a question, so do not tell me not to judge so quickly.

Both articles read should be read:

The Trouble with "Lordship Salvation" - http://www.timothyministry.com/2011/11/trouble-with-lordship-salvation.html

Antinomianism - http://www.timothyministry.com/2011/12/antinomianism.html

I think much of the problem is the esteem of man, and just the plain fact that people want to add works to the gospel. That's why Way of the Master, "turn from your sins" to be saved, and "you can lose your salvation" gospels exist. Sad.

Eli does a good job of explaining the issues and as well there is good dialogue inthe comments section.

I guess it's too bad Eli was not a "big name preacher" or "more aged" of a man, and maybe you would listen to him.

It is clear Eli's articles were not clearly read. I encourage them to be read.

And yes, "we will account for every word at the judgment seat" - which is the very reason that every man cannot preach and speak his own gospel.

"If we add anything to being saved beside simple faith in Jesus Christ, we not only will find ourselves with a religion no different than all the rest, but we will have lost the true knowledge of God, and eternal life. So everything is at stake."

Respectfully, the problem with the above statement, as well as the article as a whole, is that "simple faith" is not defined or described in biblical terms. Yet the Bible over and over warns us about a kind of dead "faith" that does not save anyone. The Bible defines and describes saving faith as a faith that works practical righteousness in the lives of those who are truly saved.

The article did not tackle the Scriptures that declare obedience as an essential part of saving faith. It only gave an unbalanced teaching on the side of grace. It would have been more challenging if the writer would have tried to tackle and explain the meaning of such passages as James 2:14-26 where we are told that faith without works is dead.

So for the sake of readers who are struggling with whether or not obedience is an essential part of biblical Christianity, I will post that passage here:

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[d] works, and I will show you my faith by my[e] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[f] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[g]And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Here is an article written by A.W. Tozer on the subject:

No Saviorhood without Lordship

We must never underestimate the ability of human beings to get themselves tangled up.

Mankind appears to have a positive genius for twisting truth until it ceases to be truth and becomes downright falsehood. By overemphasizing in one place and underemphasizing in another the whole pattern of truth may be so altered that a completely false view results without our being aware of it.

This fact was brought forcibly to mind recently by hearing again the discredited doctrine of a divided Christ so widely current a few years ago and still accepted in many religious circles. It goes like this: Christ is both Savior and Lord. A sinner may be saved by accepting Him as Savior without yielding to Him as Lord. The practical outworking of this doctrine is that the evangelist presents and the seeker accepts a divided Christ. We have all heard the tearful plea made to persons already saved to accept Christ as Lord and thus enter into the victorious life.

Almost all deeper life teaching is based upon this fallacy, but because it contains a germ of truth its soundness is not questioned. Anyway, it is extremely simple and quite popular, and in addition to these selling points it is also ready-made for both speaker and hearer and requires no thinking by either. So sermons embodying this heresy are freely preached, books are written and songs composed, all saying the same thing; and all saying the wrong thing, except, as I have said, for a feeble germ of truth lying inert at the bottom.

Now, it seems odd that none of these teachers ever noticed that the only true object of saving faith is none other than Christ Himself; not the “saviorhood” of Christ nor the “lordship” of Christ, but Christ Himself. God does not offer salvation to the one who will believe on one of the offices of Christ, nor is an office of Christ ever presented as an object of faith. Neither are we exhorted to believe on the atonement, nor on the cross, nor on the priesthood of the Savior. All of these are embodied in the person of Christ, but they are never separated nor is one ever isolated from the rest. Much less are we permitted to accept one of Christ’s offices and reject another. The notion that we are so permitted is a modern day heresy, I repeat, and like every heresy it has had evil consequences among Christians. No heresy is ever entertained with impunity. We pay in practical failure for our theoretical errors.

It is altogether doubtful whether any man can be saved who comes to Christ for His help but with no intention to obey Him. Christ’s saviorhood is forever united to His lordship. Look at the Scriptures: “If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved…for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Rom. 10:9-13). There the “Lord” is the object of faith for salvation. And when the Philippian jailer asked the way to be saved, Paul replied, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved” (Acts 16:31). He did not tell him to believe on the Savior with the thought that he could later take up the matter of His lordship and settle it at his own convenience. To Paul there could be no division of offices. Christ must be Lord or He will not be Savior.

There is no intention here to teach that the earnest believer may not go on to explore ever-increasing meanings in Christ, nor do we hold that our first saving contact with Christ brings perfect knowledge of all He is to us. The contrary is true. Ages upon ages will hardly be long enough to allow us to experience all the riches of His grace. As we discover new meanings in His titles and make them ours we will grow in the knowledge of our Lord and in personal appreciation of the multifold offices He fills and the many forms of love He wears exalted on His throne. That is the truth which has been twisted out of shape and reduced to impotence by the doctrine that we can believe on His saviorhood while rejecting His lordship.

Hi Appolus,
If Faith and obedience are two sides of the same coin then we need not worry about obedience because once we know that we are saved(faith) we will see according to Tozer"s logic obedience being their automatically.Then if reverse Tozer's Logic if we find obedience we will also find salvation.
Therefore their is no point in preaching obedience,it is their already if we are saved according to Tozer,
Yours Staff

Hi,
On the issue of Lordship Salvation,I think this is where "Ten Shekels and A shirt "goes wrong as well in my opinion.The author expects a higher degree of "salvation" from others than he originally had himself which is inconsistant.
I think the view of salvation "I am saved the day I commmit to God and am infilled with The Holy Spirit" "I am being saved in my journey with God""I will eventually be saved out of this world by the rapture or death" is accurate,
Yours Staff

Hi Appolus,
I am just disagreeing with Tozers view from what was written in the post.His logic does not carry through consistantly if he says faith and obedience are two sides of the one coin meaning that the coin is the same no matter which side you look at.
Their are a couple of definitions for that idiom as far as I can see.

I think that some people are saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit and battle all their life to be under the lordship of Christ while others from the word go have no problem with the Lordship of Christ.The problem is when the latter looks at the former and are critical and judgemental.
Yours Staff

If we add anything to being saved beside simple faith in Jesus Christ, we not only will find ourselves with a religion no different than all the rest, but we will have lost the true knowledge of God, and eternal life. So everything is at stake.

It seems that the little adjective in front of the word 'faith' is something extra that the Bible doesn't use. Some people use the adjective 'naked' to adorn faith, some use 'simple', but The Bible doesn't use either. The Bible says that you are saved by faith but not faith alone, you are saved by faith and then your faith produces something, if it doesn't produce something then it isn't faith.

Tozer gave this analogy in one of his sermons, "you don't eat the tree you eat the fruit of the tree, but you can't have the fruit without the tree. So you can't have the fruit of salvation without faith which is the tree or root of salvation. But you can have a dry naked faith without any fruit like a tree in mid-winter, stark and barren without a leaf or a bud."

In Christ,

Ron

Hi ricky:

Eli does a good job of explaining the issues and as well there is good dialogue in the comments section.

I guess it's too bad Eli was not a "big name preacher" or "more aged" of a man, and maybe you would listen to him.

That's an interesting way of setting this up:

1) If I agree with Eli here, I'm thoughtful and humble enough to listen to a younger man.
2) If I disagree with Eli here it's because I'm a respecter of persons and an ageist.

Nice.

How about I just disagree with his teaching because I don't think they line up with the teachings in the New Covenant? Eli might be a great guy but I don't know him personally, the point is it's not about Eli.

He sets up a straw man in the beginning of his article (a man who believes he is justified by works), and continues to argue against the false premise. In the comments he continues the false premise in the birthday card analogy.

Honestly I don't know of anyone on this forum that would agree with this.

We are saved by grace and by grace alone, the works that we do are proof of the grace that we have received, they are the tangible evidence that we are saved (the proof that the inside of the cup is clean). True works (not the dead ones mentioned earlier) come from a heart of appreciation for what was given to, and done for us by Jesus on the cross. In happens in the aforementioned order, NOT IN REVERSE.

That's why Way of the Master, "turn from your sins" to be saved, and "you can lose your salvation" gospels exist. Sad.

I fear for you brother, simply because you are reading the word through the filter of what you have been taught rather than reading the Word without prejudice (sola scriptura).

The lose your salvation gospel is actually Jesus's last words to the church in Revelation 2 and 3:

These words are in red:

"To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God." -Revelation 2:7

What about the ones who are NOT victorious? This letter is to the church, not unbelievers. Since unbelievers are not and never will be a part of the church, who is he talking to?

"Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death." -Revelation 2:11

It's clear here that the people in the church who are NOT victorious WILL BE hurt by the second death.

"Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality. Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it." -Revelation 2:14-17

Again, to the one who is victorious.

"To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father." -Revelation 2:26-27

Again, to the one who is victorious.

"Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. 5 The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels. " -Revelation 3:4-5

To the one who is WORTHY and VICTORIOUS. What about those who are unworthy and not victorious?

"I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. " -Revelation 3:11-12

If they don't 'hold on to their crown' what happens?

"To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne." -Revelation 3:21-22

Do you notice a recurring theme here? This is the FULL GOSPEL, and it's not sad, in fact, it's just the opposite, it's 'good news'!

How do you reconcile these 2 books of the bible with your beliefs?

It's impossible to reconcile these scriptures with the belief that a person cannot walk away from the Lord.

I'm not having a go at you, I'm seriously wanting to understand your reasoning here, no guilt whatsoever.

The trouble with "Lordship Salvation" is the TERM "Lordship Salvation"... it always implies a works based salvation. (very misleading.)

"Lordship Salvation" is a discussion of what comes first: Lordship or Salvation (ie. the chicken or the egg).

LIFE produces LIFE. True salvation brings about an awakening of Who Jesus IS... The LORD Jesus Christ.

"if ye love Me (you claim to be a follower)... keep my commandments" John 14:15

A true believer lays down his life for the Savior... it's only reasonable. Romans 12:1

Lordship salvation is not only biblical but logical as well.
The only people that I ever met personally that didn't believe that were double-minded, unstable in all their ways. When testings came by way of providence into their lives, the fleshly nature was clearly shown, as if God was trying to tell them something about their own hearts.
I could give examples and names, however, I won't at this time.
But, I would like to say that in some cases, that before one is indwelt with God's Spirit, an individual can live a very wicked life, to the point that others are severely hurt by their actions. Now, God comes in and starts pointing things out to that individual and says, "I want you to deal with that." Here, the man is at a cross-roads. Will I obey these promptings or not. He looks at what could happen and fear indwells him, or he takes up his cross and is led by the Spirit to suffer for doing what is righteous in the eyes of God and man.
Some of us here will have to deal with our own past issues, and some of us will just come up with whatever theological excuse we can to avoid what God is trying to deal with us on.
Anyway, that's why I think many oppose Lordship salvation - they believe God is merciful, but not righteous, well, maybe righteous when it comes to everybody else except themselves.
This is also why, I love that new audio book here by Andrew Murray, titled, "Humility."
In all honesty, I got things I think I gotta deal with in my past, and make amends, and make some things right. And please pray, that God will give me the grace to do what He aks of me, and that I receive that grace, no matter the cost. If He is with me though, then I have nothing to fear.
Some of us here, I know, have lived on the street, taken drugs, robbed people, been to jail, etc. But, at the same time, we should not try to disguise ourselves as religious men whom have in the past, trampled the lives of others, and think now that we are "saved", that's it, we can move on - listen, if God is pricking one's conscience about a past issue, I think, He is only doing it out of love. So, let us go deeper with Him in humility, and not give the devil a foot-hold any longer. What the devil meant for evil, God can use for the good of ourselves and others, and may He get all the glory.
Lordship salvation requires deep humility, and I mean deep - but it's worth it. God came to set the captives free, and His way is humility, so let us trust Him, although trembling, let us be honest with Him, and one another, and toss away the masks, and step out in faith. Lord I believe, but do I beg Thee, help my unbelief.
This may not shed any Light on Eli nor Ricky's heart, but this is just my testimony (a bit of it, lol), and of some whom never grew up in religious homes, and God spoke to them in grace when they were in horrific places in their lives - places where everybody but God had written them off. Some of us were so filled with Satan, we would die for all sorts of evil - well, now, let us die for Him because He alone is worthy, more than worthy. Let us follow Him wherever He leads us, let us be men of the Spirit, and under His Lordship - God, help me to be that man.

I am being very brave here to interject my 2 cents worth.

But to me I feel I may unerstand what bro. Eli may be touching on.

I cannot argue w/ anyone for you are so much more learned than I, and I will quietly pass on a reply back but you may just read this and pass on by anyway so all's good.

I feel what bro Eli may be touching on is the divine everyday presense of our precious Lord which surpasses (overrides? looking for right wording) any and all true difficulty of works. This coming when after a long time of serving Him in his own strenth the relevalation knowledge of His grace was made manifest to him by the precious Holy Spirit?

In my, by His grace alone, experience - the works that comes from this blessed indwelling if His very Grace (Presence) in me makes all I do a spiritual offering so to speak. Acceptable? Yes! for in this intimate by His Grace alone communing how can it be otherwise? then I find it is no longer a labor but a labor of love, joy, anticipation even, fo what can possibly separarate me from the love of God. Nothing. And He wants to be seen through me.

Then the lordship issue becomes an act of gladness in the spirit of thankfullness vs. a lordship leagalistic act so to speak.

Then the beauttiful parable of Faith even as a mustard seed becomes a living Hope. Nay I dare say even a way of life. For then all my prayers, which are mostly to do w/ salvation (but not all of coarse) becomes almost w/out ceasing a constant offering of devotion toward Him, especially concerning those the Lord has burdened my heart for, and those are of no doubt to me a prayer offered in the very center of His will and I can then rest and know that it is He that inspired the prayer to begin with. And Praise Him continually for it.

This works thing never worked for me either ( by that I mean I did not experience His Grace (presence) usually but by his presense in His grace did it all come to life and have meaning. Through the revelation knowledge of His Wonderful Grace and the Eternal Power of It.

Now I understand what it means it is no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me. Therefore
I offer myself as a glad tiding toward Him always waiting for that blessed approval, that peace that passeth all understanding and therefore that in whatever I do even the mere act of eating and drinking, word or deed it is an act of thanksgiving and done unto Him.

Sorry this got lenthy but I so love Him because He first loved me and after so long trying to please Him and suddenly becoming a mother of a prodigal it took my breath away and much pouring out of my very soul changed my whole life forever.

I often wondered if I was ever saved for what I found I had been missing as a Christian for so long. It was at that time of many trials hitting all at once I can relate to bad things do happen to good people.

So is it that I now am forever grateful for my life being shattered so to speak for God to allow me the revelation knowledge of Grace that brought me into His presense.

I know longer reach for the robe of my Christ I cling and will never let Him go again. Just to have His presence is worth dieing for. I died it seemed, but I wrestled too like Jacob refusing to not get an answer to why? Why lord after all these yrs. of serving you why?

Now I understand His heart more than I ever did. I came to understand unless the Lord build the house he who buildeth buildeth in vain. Oh such rest there is in this Grace.

But I am still on this dark side of heaven so to speak where I get challenged but I know that Grace (and His presence) permeates every word of the livng Word and can glean w/ joy the revelation knowledge of His power that He has to save even unto the uttermost and it thrills my heart if I would be so privaledged to see it come to pass in those I earnestly pray for.

Is not all we do for the Lord to multiply to others this great gift of salvation? But how can we share if we don't hide behind Him so to speak and allow His work to be brought out through us.

Maybe I'm far off the meaning of this whole thread so do forgive then please, but something in his article rang true to my heart, this message of grace vs. our own works.

I endeavor only to ask if all that i do (works) is pleasing to Him

Is this your will? Is it I Lord or you desiring this ? For I can truly not do anything in my own strenth Lord worthy of heaven so enlighten me and examine me afterward if I caused you any grief at any level for I am frail and my flesh hard to die but I commit this by the grace given to me to use as you see fit to anyone who may need it. amen

You are merciful and covereth a multitude of sins. O lover of my our souls, thou alone art worthy of praise and every act your own children offered to anyone or in anything, may you be ever so near and we know you are for you said it. For are w/ us always.

You are a blessing to me and I am so grateful for this carefully monitored site.

In Christ love,
dieingtolive

I have enjoyed this presence and my beloved Lord is bringing me back to this blesssed time of walking daily in Him. After a trek in a desert so to speak kept away longer than should have been by guilt, returning by and through His grace and unfathomable undieing love and will.

Also understand this cross of others not understanding this grace. But it's still worth it. His Light dispels the darkness

God's love sis -k-

I understand this grace (LOVE) that Eli speaks of.

I wonder if that is the revelation Knowledge he speaks of?

Always and always we come back to the same question, however it is put, or by whom, and with what scholarship. The Law is the keeping of Righteousness in Yeshua haMashiach...not following the rituals of Rabinnical Judaism. And we are enabled by the Grace of the Ruach haKodesh to keep Righteousness, in Grace, by our faith...our trust, day by day in Yeshua for the gift of our immediate AND ultimate salvation.

Lordship?

It is not Lordship but Ownership that people object to, the complete agreement of Yeshua's rights over us by being our Redeemer, even as YHVH has the same right as our Creator.

We are owned by YHVH, through Yeshua, or we are owned by the Advesary. We obey one of the two, and trust and believe in, and follow after our CHOSEN Lord by the obedience IN the One, or the the disobedience IN the other.

And yes, these are actions, works of love, and patience, kindness, faithfulness to the Rule of Yeshua, and not to our own flesh that the Advesary advocates in us.

But we do no action of obedience, no work of faith without the grace provided to us by the indwelling of the Ruach haKodesh. The power to obey, and do a work of faith is gifted to us by the Ruach, in Yeshua, by YHVH, who owns us by our consent, and through His ownership, by Grace does the works THROUGH us!!! The continuous consent and action to that ownership, that Submission to what HE wants is what we all object to, and struggle with, every day. That is the cross we carry...keeping Righteousness in Yeshua by continuous acts of submission in faith and trust to what He wants of us...fruits of repentence, and of the gifts of the Ruach haKodesh...Patience, kindness, generousity, love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance.

Choose now WHOM you will serve...by your works through grace in faith.

Matthew 7:12-27
12. Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
13. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17. Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25. And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27. And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Luke 3:8-16
8. Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these
stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
9. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
10. And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then?
11. He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.
12. Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do?
13. And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you.
14. And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with
your wages.
15. And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;
16. John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

John 15:1-10
1. I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather
them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Galatians 5:22-25
22. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness,faith,
23. Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Q

I believe in the LORD Jesus Christ! Now He has become my Saviour! Hallelujah!

Krispy no problem, and I am sorry if I mistook you.

To all that believe you can lose your salvation - I do not understand then how you can say you will be saved -for how can you boldly say you will not fall away? How can you be assured? Is it through your works or Jesus' finished work?

There is no doubt that there are heretics on these message forums. I am not saying anyone inparticular but I am saying in general. (and if you are saying I am a heretic, that is fine I can handle that).

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. (2Corinthians 11:15-16)

I am not advocating an unholy life, actually the exact opposite. But that does not contribute to salvation or uphold it. (we love him because he first loved us)

These forums are faceless and emotionless, which is not who I am. I hold to things I have written.

God bless all his people,
Ricky

Dear Brother,

This concise, yet rich and pregnant statement of practical faith deserves to be repeated:

“To live under the Lordship of Christ is to pick up one's cross daily. This is a brutal exercise. In order to do this, we must be obedient to the word of God and to the prompting of the Holy Spirit. We must have faith to believe that we will never be tempted more than we are able. We must have faith to know that He will never leave us nor forsake us. In order to put flesh on our faith we are called to walk through fields of fire. The Christian does not dwell in a play-ground, he dwells on a battle-field. As we walk through the many trials of life, as we are obedient to pick up our crosses daily, then we discover His faithfulness. Our faith in His faithfulness is built up as we exercise our own faith. We exercise our faith by being obedient to His prompting.”

It is brutal Brother, but though our outward man perish, our inward man is renewed day by day...

Be well,
Doug

Hi Ricky,

I asked you a question earlier and noticed that you didn't answer it:

How do you reconcile these 2 books of the bible (Revelation 2 and 3) with your beliefs?

I'm not trying to be a jerk, just looking for an answer.

I'll answer your questions later when I get off work (I'm on lunch).

Peace bro!

Sorry earl j, I will read revelations 2 and 3 and will get back to you. I apologize if I overlooked anything else anyone had written.

:(