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Job’s High Standard of Life by Zac Poonen

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sermonindex


In Job, chapters 26-31, Job gives a list of all the many good things he had done in his life to help others. As we read through these chapters, it is amazing to see the tremendous light that Job had about God and His ways and the high standard of life that he lived way back in those days when there was no Bible and without the indwelling Holy Spirit. It is good to look through some things in these chapters, because they put us to shame and challenge us to live at a much higher standard today.

He begins by saying how foolish man is to dig deep for gold but not to seek for wisdom (28:1,12,13). He goes on to say that “the fear of the Lord is wisdom and to depart from evil is understanding” (28:28). Solomon said exactly the same thing 1000 years later in Proverbs 9:10. Undoubtedly, he got that understanding from reading the book of Job. In Chapter 29, Job goes on to speak about his past, when he lived in friendship with God, helping the poor, the orphans, the widows, the blind, the lame and the needy. In Chapter 30, he complains that in spite of all the good he had done, he was now suffering and had been brought so low by God.

In Chapter 31, he speaks of the righteousness of his life. He had been careful with his eyes not to lust after women (v.1). He had light on this sin 2000 years before Jesus spoke about it in Matthew 5. He had walked in integrity without any falsehood (v.5,6), he had never been unfaithful to his wife (v.9-12), he had treated his servants with kindness (v.13-15), he had helped the poor and the widows and brought up orphans as his own children (v.16-23), he had not trusted in gold or been idolatrous (v.24-28), he had not rejoiced when his enemy was defeated (v.29,30), he had cared for strangers (v.31, 32), he had confessed his sin whenever he sinned (v.33), he had not been afraid of the contempt of people (v.34), and had even cared for his land properly (v.38-40). He cries out to God to answer him (v.35).

We can see in these chapters what a godly man Job was. He had light on so many areas of his life and was an extremely helpful man. Yet he did not have light on one thing: Spiritual pride. Pride in his godliness. God loved Job and was determined that Job should have that one virtue of humility also before he left this earth. And so, in immense love for Job, God took him through this deep trial in order to make him both godly and humble.

When the godly apostle Paul was in danger of becoming proud, God took Paul also through suffering. He gave him a thorn in the flesh, which was a messenger of Satan (2 Cor.12:7). Job had a messenger of Satan too. But Paul knew why he got it. Job didn’t know. That is why God takes many godly people through suffering, misunderstanding, opposition and persecution - to humble them and break them so that He can pour out His grace upon them, for He gives His grace only to the humble. We cannot blame Job for complaining. He didn’t have a Bible, the indwelling Holy Spirit, or a brother to encourage him. But Paul never complained; and neither need we.

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sermonindex

"But Paul never complained; and neither need we."

I wholeheartedly, completely, utterly, 1000%, disagree.

I seriously doubt that Paul did not complain to God. Moses complained to God, the psalms are full of complaint, Elijah complained, Jeremiah complained to God...

Suffering produces pain, and in that pain bitterness, anger, resentment, and all sorts of ugly things rise to the surface. If we cannot trust God with our pain (all of these ugly things) then in whom will we trust. And trusting God with our pain and hurt means pouring it all out to Him. I have said things to God, I would never say to human beings, and you know what...God was not surprised or shocked...Because He knew it was all in there any way.

If we do not pour out our pain to God, which sometimes means complaining to God about people and circumstances in our lives, then we will have no ability to love those who have hurt us, or overcome impossible situations.

David poured his heart out to God....and you can be sure some ugly things ran out.

Trust God with your pain and see the salvation of God.

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sermonindex

If we do not pour out our pain to God, which sometimes means complaining to God about people and circumstances in our lives, then we will have no ability to love those who have hurt us, or overcome impossible situations.

Brother, I agree with you as I have shared by bitterness or fustrations with God at times. But this was not fruitful yet God accepted it and shed His love abroad to me. We must desire to overcome these things and get to the place where we can praise God for these pains and problems. That is where Paul the Apostle reached in his walk with the Lord in many ways.

I do not want to be a grumbler like those in the wilderness. We can struggle with this but must desire to overcome these sins by the grace of God.

1 corinthians 10:10-13

And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.

11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come. 12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! 13 No temptation[c] has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted[d] beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted,[e] he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

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PaulWest

I do not want to be a grumbler like those in the wilderness. We can struggle with this but must desire to overcome these sins by the grace of God.

Amen! It is possible, dear brother. It is God's will that we triumph over all of Satan's influence, over the pull of our flesh and mind, over depression, grumbling, over all discontent and lust, it is God's will that we never again get entangled with the base things of our previous life in Adam, but that we always rejoice in Christ Jesus, and walk in selfless love toward all men, reflecting the glory of Him Who indwells us.

If Jesus never complained, than neither should we. He is our example, and He empowers us to follow Him, for He is our very Life. Any opposing view is antiscriptural and going off personal testimony and defeatism and using it to trump God's Word by virtue of their own extistentialism.

I've noticed Zac Poonen's articles generate quite a bit of opposition and misunderstanding in Christian forums, when all he does is dare echo scripture and stand upon the radical promises of God concerning the divine nature. If such things weren't actually in scripture, I too wouldn't think it were possible!

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sermonindex

Greg,

They weren't complaining to God. They were complaining to each other about Moses and Aaron. They were gossiping and slandering. They were sharing their bitterness and anger with each other. There was no faith involved in what they were doing. They were not trusting God. They were, in fact, idolators because they were turning to the creature rather than the Creator.

The temptation that threatens to overtake us is to complain to one another and gossip about one another....and the way of escape is to go to God and trust Him with all the pain and hurt, anger and bitterness.

Praising God in our suffering does not involve suppressing or repressing our feelings and emotions. That is just stoicism. It is not Christianity. Even Jesus told His Father how he really felt in the garden..."let this cup pass..."

You can be sure that the pain and complaining will come out. We will either complain to each other or to God. One is idolatry, and the other is true, vibrant, faith.

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Yeshuasboy

Better to believe God than man.
"The insignificances of daily life are the importances and the tests of eternity, because they prove what really is the spirit that possesses us. It is in our most unguarded moments that we really show and discern what we are" - Andrew Murray (Humility, Chapter 6). Oh, how I've witnessed this truth in my own life.
"Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life. Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee. Let thine eyes look right on, and let thine eyelids look straight before thee." - Prv 4:23-25
Godly Stephen was able to stand firm and preach the truth in holy boldness to the crowd because, I believe, he was enabled to do so. However, he was also enabled to react in a godly fashion when that crowd began stoning him to death saying, "Lord, lay not this sin to their charge." Why was this so? - I believe God tells us why for this reason - "being full of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 7:55).
Truly it is so that all things are possible with God to them that believe, to them that are called according to His purposes; for, His ways are above our ways, and His thoughts above ours.
"Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful." - Luke 6:36

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rookie

"We can see in these chapters what a godly man Job was. He had light on so many areas of his life and was an extremely helpful man. Yet he did not have light on one thing: Spiritual pride. Pride in his godliness. God loved Job and was determined that Job should have that one virtue of humility also before he left this earth. And so, in immense love for Job, God took him through this deep trial in order to make him both godly and humble."


Poonen states that Job "had light". I ask from what source did this "light" emanate from. You see whether it was Job or Paul, unity of spirit comes from God. And God is the One who teaches men His ways for He is the potter and we are the clay. The Potter's work is that the 'vessel" glorify Him.


Paul learned the same precept from God.


Phl 3:8\tYet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ

Phl 3:9\tand be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which [is] from the law, but that which [is] through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

Phl 3:10\tthat I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,

Phl 3:11\tif, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Paul's hope is to "be found in Him, not having (his) own righteousness, which is from the law,... but that which is
righeousness from God by faith..."

We see that God also worked through the power of the Holy Spirit to teach Job about the same stumbling block.


Job 42:1\tThen Job answered the LORD and said:


Job 42:2\t"I know that You can do everything, And that no purpose [of Yours] can be withheld from You.


Job 42:3\t[You asked], 'Who [is] this who hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.


Job 42:4\tListen, please, and let me speak; [You said], 'I will question you, and you shall answer Me.'


Job 42:5\t"I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You.


Job 42:6\tTherefore I abhor [myself], And repent in dust and ashes."


Job declares the source of 'his light"... "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eyes sees You." God removed his scales that day.

No man can rid himself of self righteousness unless the Lord does the work.

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sermonindex

In psalm 57 we see David in a cave, hiding, at a low point in his life yet he writes.........

"Psa 57:7 My heart is fixed, O God, my heart is fixed: I will sing and give praise."

In another translation is says that his heart is steadfast. There is a definate difference between those who grumbled in the desert ( and everyone of them fell there, never leaveing the desert) and those who, despite going through severe circumstances, have steadfast hearts. Keeping it real, the psalms is full of the psalmists crying out to God and telling him of their situations. I love that I can come before my Father and tell Him how things are. If I am being honest, and it sounds kinda proud, I do not complain to God. I tell Him I am hurting, but I truly believe that the steps of a righteous man are ordered of God. I love the fact that Paul is praising God in the depths of the dungeon. And, we see this same Spirit in saints down through the ages. This is in comparison to the Israelites at the river f Babylon after being defeated and taken into captivity. When goaded by their captors to " sing their songs of victories now," they hung their harps upon the willow tree. This was symbolic of not being able to praise God and the willow tree symbolizes weeping.

As opposed to the Israelites of old, we walk in the victory of Jesus Christ that allows us to rejoice even in the depths of our trials. This is the victory. It comes through the pain, not instead of it. The Lord sees the affliction of His people. He hears their cries. He hears their plea's. This is a world apart from grumbling and complaining. Even in the psalms we see that " He prepares a table before us in the presence of our enemies."

Zac Poonen, like every other preacher, gets it wrong sometimes. Praise God we do not follow men, but praise God for men of God willing to lead when called upon to do so. No man is beyond questioning. Only in cults and dictatorships are men unquestioned. God is no respector of persons. We are accountable to each other and we are called to be mutually submissive to each other. When this spirit abounds, so does freedom and grace and joy and peace................brother Frank

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Sree


Praising God in our suffering does not involve suppressing or repressing our feelings and emotions. That is just stoicism. It is not Christianity. Even Jesus told His Father how he really felt in the garden..."let this cup pass..."

Emotional Christianity is not a true Christianity. One needs to come out of his emotional thoughts and start living spiritual.
NT never talks about complaining to God. Instead It says to take it pure Joy when we face trails.
James 1-2:-
My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.


How can we complain about our trail to Lord and still consider it Joy?
NT standard is much higher than OT, sad that people who call themselves Christians don't even understand this high standard and that is why people still start quoting David when they commit adultery.

Finally Jesus never complained to God about the cup, he pleaded to God to take this cup away if it is his will. Again none of us will be called to take this cup anymore. This is something that Jesus alone took and this cup was the Sin of whole world that caused the God the Father to turn away from Jesus. If God decides to turn away from you, you obviously cannot be happy and consider it Joy. This is extreme level of trails and the good news is, it is finished and we will never face this cup. One cannot compare the Cup that Jesus took to any trail including even persecution for his name.


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PaulWest

It is noteworthy that we really don't see anyone grumbling in the New Testament after Pentecost. We see people burdened, like Paul for his fellow Jews, and beseeching God repeatedly through prayer to remove an unpleasant thorn in the flesh, but never do we see anyone grumbling or complaining like we do with men in the Old Testment.

This is because the Holy Spirit gives us contentment in all situations, regardless of the outside surroundings in food, money, clothing, persecutions, prisons, betrayals, etc. The apostles could rejoice forevermore. This sort of thing was not possible in the Old Covenant, for men did not have the Holy Spirit dwelling within their vessels, the "old man" in Adam was still enthroned in the heart and the law of Moses could do nothing about it.

This is why we read of so much fleshly complaining in the Psalms; venting and seething and striving was all that men like David and Solomon and people like Asaph could do without the Holy Spirit. Many of the same Psalms which contain fleshly complaints also in the same breath petition God to rip the enemy (usually some earthly nation or tribe) to shreds and dash their children to pieces. As New Covenant believers we are not followers of David or Moses or Elijah or Solomon. We are followers of Christ Jesus exclusively. Victory over discontentment in life could only be had by the indwelling might of the Holy Spirit through Christ.

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learjet

I seriously doubt that Paul did not complain to God. Moses complained to God, the psalms are full of complaint, Elijah complained, Jeremiah complained to God...

This is all true but old testament saints are not our example, Jesus is, and He never complained.

I see your point and it's well taken but more often than not I find that the Lord bends me. Often the circumstance doesn't change but my attitude does. This is the glory of the New Covenant, we look to Him for grace in all things and our physical condition does not matter. If we are in jail, persecutions, poor, good health or bad we look to Him for grace and joy. When His grace is there all of these circumstances do not matter!

Peace to all of you and Merry Christmas!

All praise to Emmanuel "God with us"

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Areadymind

"Emotional Christianity is not a true Christianity. One needs to come out of his emotional thoughts and start living spiritual."

Please forgive me Sree if I am misinterpreting this statement, but I hope you would not mind me analyzing this statement.

This is a non-sequitur. Emotions and Spirituality are not in opposition unless sin is involved, as a matter of fact emotion and spirituality are close companions. This philosophy is more platonic than it is Christian. Jesus was incredibly emotional, in fact was called "the man of sorrows," and God the Father is depicted as expressing emotion all throughout the Bible, Christianity is not superior in its ethos (or pathos) than God himself is. Man is made in the image of God. Emotions are part of that image.

I will give the benefit of the doubt however and presume that by "emotional" you mean, "emotions out of control." Joy itself is an emotion, or has byproducts of satisfying emotions anyway, so to say that we should not experience frustration, and instead should experience joy in tribulation is to encourage eternal emotion, not de-spiritualize it.

I would also say there is an enormous difference between a person who is bitter and "complaining" against God, versus a person who knows who to go to for help in time of emotional need.

"Be angry and sin not." Ephesians 4:26

When Paul quoted this, he was affirming the practice David taught to "mighty men" in Israel. The practice was learning how to take their sense of injustice, bitterness, or whatever motive was causing them to stand against his authority as king, to God in prayer upon their beds.

See, Ahithophel, Jonadab, Shimei, Absalom, and many other people in Israel at that time were slandering David, and I suspect they justified it in their own minds. They were angry, and wanted justice. Rather than taking this emotion to God upon their beds, they let it turn to malice in their hearts. David did not tell them to "not be angry." That is like telling a fire not to be hot, or telling the sky to not be blue. Rather, David affirmed their right to anger, as did Paul. The way to deal with that anger, is to offer it up in penitence to God and implore his help in dealing with it that true justice may prevail.

Also, Greg, I ask you to forgive me brother if I have distracted from the original intent of this post.

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rookie

PaulWest wrote:

"This is because the Holy Spirit gives us contentment in all situations, regardless of the outside surroundings in food, money, clothing, persecutions, prisons, betrayals, etc. The apostles could rejoice forevermore."


In the following Scripture we have this testimony of a church post pentecost...


1Cr 4:8\tYou are already full! You are already rich! You have reigned as kings without us--and indeed I could wish you did reign, that we also might reign with you!

1Cr 4:9\tFor I think that God has displayed us, the apostles, last, as men condemned to death; for we have been made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men.

1Cr 4:10\tWe [are] fools for Christ's sake, but you [are] wise in Christ! We [are] weak, but you [are] strong! You [are] distinguished, but we [are] dishonored!

1Cr 4:11\tTo the present hour we both hunger and thirst, and we are poorly clothed, and beaten, and homeless.

1Cr 4:12\tAnd we labor, working with our own hands. Being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we endure;

1Cr 4:13\tbeing defamed, we entreat. We have been made as the filth of the world, the offscouring of all things until now.

1Cr 4:14\tI do not write these things to shame you, but as my beloved children I warn [you].

1Cr 4:15\tFor though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet [you do] not [have] many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

1Cr 4:16\tTherefore I urge you, imitate me.

1Cr 4:17\tFor this reason I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church.

1Cr 4:18\tNow some are puffed up, as though I were not coming to you.

1Cr 4:19\tBut I will come to you shortly, if the Lord wills, and I will know, not the word of those who are puffed up, but the power.

1Cr 4:20\tFor the kingdom of God [is] not in word but in power.

1Cr 4:21\tWhat do you want? Shall I come to you with a rod, or in love and a spirit of gentleness?


What is the difference between Paul and the Corinthian church?

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sermonindex

Co 1:7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.

2Co 1:8 For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life:

This word despair Paul uses, means to be at a total loss, to be despondent. Beware when people tell you that you should live an emotionless life. Its pie in the sky Christianity. There was nothing emotionless about the Lord Jesus in Gethsemane or when the Lord cried from the cross believing that He had been forsaken. The Lord went through these things, Paul went through these things and we too, followers of the narrow path, will be totaly broken. I often wonder what some people believe when they use this language, what it means to be broken, to be surrendered, to take up ones cross. The cross is symbolic of brutality. There will be emotions involved.

As Paul says, we must not be ignorant of the trobles we will face and the despair we will often experience. Yet , in Christ, we will overcome because He overcame. Just keepin it real.......... brother Frank

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looserchapel

As Paul says, we must not be ignorant of the trobles we will face and the despair we will often experience

We sure have the emotions (nobody's gonna take that away from us :D) but we don't have the Getshemane, the cross, the 39 lashes, the shipwrecks, the trials, the nights in prison, the despair of being forsaken by friends, etc. that used to be packed up with.

A casual comparison of our life with that of the early church will point out an obvious inconsistency.

I'm not pushing physical suffering nor work salvation, I just wonder what Paul meant (practically and emotionally)when he said "The love of Christ constraineth us"...

Blessings

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looserchapel

What is the difference between Paul and the Corinthian church?

I don't really understand the point but I'm going to answer it the best. In fact, it's kinda funny because the differences between Paul and the Corinthian church are quoted by the same Paul in the same epistle...
- First off, Paul wrote the letter, the church was the receiver
- Paul exercised his authority, the church seemed to be worldly to say the least (I'm no legalist but the very fact that Paul wrote the letter means a lot)
- The church did what you quote above, Paul has had his portion: the shipwrecks, the hardships, the troubles, the lashes (2 cor 4, 2 cor 6, 2 cor 11)

One does not need to be a genius to favor Paul as better model compared to the state of the Corinthian church if your question could be put that way... plus Paul literally exhorted them to imitate him (1 cor 4:16)...

Blessings

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sermonindex

Hi looserchapel, I have to disagree with your assertion that their is an obvious inconsitancy. Every day we are called to pick up our cross, this is not a scriptural platitude. You say you have never despaired? Perhaps you have not. You have never been forsaken by friends? Hmm. Never suffered trials for the sake of Jesus?

For those who seek to serve the Lord with their whole hearts, their lives will be dismantled piece by piece. You will be broken and made pliable in the hands of our Lord. And this comment speaks nothing of the countless persecutions of Christians right now as we speak in many different countries and cultures around the world. May the Lord bless all of our brothers and sisters who are in prison cells and dungeons and containers this night........brother Frank

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rookie

looserchapel wrote:


"I don't really understand the point but I'm going to answer it the best. In fact, it's kinda funny because the differences between Paul and the Corinthian church are quoted by the same Paul in the same epistle..."


My point was focused on PaulWest's comment about the believer after Pentecost...he wrote:

"This is because the Holy Spirit gives us contentment in all situations, regardless of the outside surroundings in food, money, clothing, persecutions, prisons, betrayals, etc. The apostles could rejoice forevermore."


To rephrase my point based on 1 Cor 4:8-21, Both Paul and the Corinthian church had the same Holy Spirit, why then does Paul draw such a contrast between Himself and the Corinthian church?

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looserchapel

I actually wanted to point out the proportionality (or the lack thereof) between the emotions and the persecutions/hardships

I humbly don't see any evidence whatsoever of persecution/hardship in my own life, I mean one that is directly related to my faith in Jesus...

However, I know that God is great and patient with me

Blessings

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looserchapel

Ah, oki, got it... and the answer is...? :)

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sermonindex

Very honest reply looserchapel. The Scriptures below speak to all of us in........brother Frank

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Php 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

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PaulWest

To rephrase my point based on 1 Cor 4:8-21, Both Paul and the Corinthian church had the same Holy Spirit, why then does Paul draw such a contrast between Himself and the Corinthian church?

Well, I believe the contrast was between Paul's spirituality and maturity and the Corinthian church's carnality and immaturity. Spiritually speaking, Paul was light years ahead of them in his understanding and yieldedness to Christ through the Spirit. Through the same Holy Spirit given at Pentecost, Paul was constantly exhorting his children to come up, up, up to where he was. To imitate him as he imitated Christ, to go on unto perfection. He wanted to present them to Jesus Christ as chaste virgins.

The same Holy Spirit who worked in Paul and John, works in babes in Christ today. The difference is in maturity. A mature man or woman walking in the Spirit has learnt to overcome anger, lust, complaining. This is God's will. It doesn't happen overnight, just like a toddler doesn't transform into a teenager overnight. But if we humble ourselves and admit our sin and defeats with brutal honesty, our advancements will be rapid. Because God gives grace to such people.

The potentials we have with the Holy Spirit on earth is limitless. God's all-encompassing aim is to get you and me to be just like Jesus Christ, inside and out. This will be accomplished in its finality when we see Him face to face. But until that day, we take our cross up daily, we mortify the flesh, we go from glory to glory in obedience to the light we have been given. It is possible to let God sculpt us very close to the image of Christ while yet on earth, to where we become a beautiful fragrance of life and a deep blessing to all we come in contact with.

In light of this, overcoming complaining is fundamental. Our emotions are never hijacked when God sanctifies us. Instead, He teaches us how to regulate them through the renewing of our mind, through the putting to death of the flesh and the bridling of the tongue. He thus teaches us to find our perfect contentment and joy in Christ alone, regardless of our surroundings, financial situations, health, etc. This is part of the rudiments of the school of God.

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Sree


Please forgive me Sree if I am misinterpreting this statement, but I hope you would not mind me analyzing this statement.

I certainly do not mind you analyzing this statement. I should have explained it more, but I did not explain because it was not concerned with the topic.
By Emotional Christianity I mean Soul-ish Christians, who worship our Lord with ONLY emotions. True Christians will worship in Spirit and truth (John 6). The songs with heavy instruments sung in Churches will kindle an emotional worship and not a spiritual one. Even Preachers can preach an emotional sermon that will touch only Emotions but will never pierce the emotions to touch the spirit beneath it. But true word of God will split the emotions and hit the spirit (Hebrews 4-12).
If a man lives a spiritual life worshiping our Lord spiritually then he will not be carried away by the emotional thoughts that come because of Trails and temptations, instead will rejoice in Spirit. The spirit will drive his life and not emotions.
Even Jesus himself warned us from such Emotional actions when he said do not get anxious(Matthew 6-24).

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Areadymind

"But if we humble ourselves and admit our sin and defeats with brutal honesty, our advancements will be rapid. Because God gives grace to such people."

Amen!

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rookie

PaulWest wrote:

"Well, I believe the contrast was between Paul's spirituality and maturity and the Corinthian church's carnality and immaturity. Spiritually speaking, Paul was light years ahead of them in his understanding and yieldedness to Christ through the Spirit."


Yes this is true. For Paul writes...


Rom 8:12\tTherefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.

Rom 8:13\tFor if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.


PaulWest wrote:

"In light of this, overcoming complaining is fundamental. Our emotions are never hijacked when God sanctifies us. Instead, He teaches us how to regulate them through the renewing of our mind, through the putting to death of the flesh and the bridling of the tongue."


Is not the testimony of Job our example?

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rookie

We have this testimony of Paul...

Phl 3:1\tFinally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. For me to write the same things to you [is] not tedious, but for you [it is] safe.

Phl 3:2\tBeware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation!

Phl 3:3\tFor we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, [fn] rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,

Phl 3:4\tthough I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so:

Phl 3:5\tcircumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, [of] the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee;

Phl 3:6\tconcerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.


Paul was once part of the "mutalation." He was found blameless according to the law. The righteousness that he possesed at that time in his life was according to the flesh. But then God revealed to him a better promise that was not dependent upon the carnal mind.


Phl 3:8\tYet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ

Phl 3:9\tand be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which [is] from the law, but that which [is] through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;


The knowledge of Christ enabled Paul to recognize the difference between righteousness gained through the flesh and the righeousness gained through the Spirit. Man's religion is mutilation. But the way of Christ is much different...listen to His promise....

Mat 11:28\t"Come to Me, all [you] who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Mat 11:29\t"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

Mat 11:30\t"For My yoke [is] easy and My burden is light."


Have you found that the "mortification of the flesh" is a heavy burden? If you follow the commands of the Holy Spirit you will recognize the way of mutilation.

"For My yoke [is] easy and My burden is light."

R
rookie

Poonen writes,

"When the godly apostle Paul was in danger of becoming proud, God took Paul also through suffering. He gave him a thorn in the flesh, which was a messenger of Satan (2 Cor.12:7). Job had a messenger of Satan too. But Paul knew why he got it. Job didn’t know."

This point is not according to Scripture. Whether it is Paul or Job, neither man understood the condition of his heart as God sees it. Each man pleaded with God for understanding.

Job could not recognize that over time, he had become self righteous. Likewise, Paul did not recognize that spiritual pride was welling up in him. And over the course of time both Job and Paul suffered under the work of Satan.

Paul testifies to precept...

2Cr 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.

2Cr 12:8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me.

2Cr 12:9 And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.


Paul pleaded with God three times, and only after the third time did our Lord reveal to him what was not right in his heart. Only after the Lord revealed His chastening of Paul could Paul find contentment in what the Lord was working in his life.


Sometimes we are quick to judge the actions of our brothers and sisters based on what the Scripture teaches on certain topics. We know, because of Scripture, that we are called to rejoice no matter what circumstances we find ourselves in. Yet, if God has not yet revealed the purpose of this chastening in our own individual lives, how can we know of the peace and righteousness that God works into those who are His sons and daughters. One cannot expect this fruit if he or she climbs over the fence. Only those who go in and out the gate come to know this peace and righteousness. Everything else is based on our own carnal minds, and it is all vanity.


Mat 5:4 Blessed [are] those who mourn, For they shall be comforted.

Mourning comes first, then comfort.

R
rookie

"Mat 5:4 Blessed [are] those who mourn, For they shall be comforted.

Mourning comes first, then comfort."

This precept is illustrated in Psalm 30...


Psa 30:1\tA Psalm. A Song at the dedication of the house of David. I will extol You, O LORD, for You have lifted me up, And have not let my foes rejoice over me.

Psa 30:2\tO LORD my God, I cried out to You, And You healed me.

Psa 30:3\tO LORD, You brought my soul up from the grave; You have kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit. [fn]

Psa 30:4\tSing praise to the LORD, you saints of His, And give thanks at the remembrance of His holy name. [fn]

Psa 30:5\tFor His anger [is but for] a moment, His favor [is for] life; Weeping may endure for a night, But joy [comes] in the morning.

Psa 30:6\tNow in my prosperity I said, "I shall never be moved."

Psa 30:7\tLORD, by Your favor You have made my mountain stand strong; You hid Your face, [and] I was troubled.

Psa 30:8\tI cried out to You, O LORD; And to the LORD I made supplication:

Psa 30:9\t"What profit [is there] in my blood, When I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise You? Will it declare Your truth?

Psa 30:10\tHear, O LORD, and have mercy on me; LORD, be my helper!"

Psa 30:11\tYou have turned for me my mourning into dancing; You have put off my sackcloth and clothed me with gladness,

Psa 30:12\tTo the end that [my] glory may sing praise to You and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give thanks to You forever.

Whether it is Job, Paul, or David, this precept stands in all generations...


Psa 30:5\tFor His anger [is but for] a moment, His favor [is for] life; Weeping may endure for a night, But joy [comes] in the morning.

In David's anguish, he said this to the Lord....

Psa 30:8\tI cried out to You, O LORD; And to the LORD I made supplication:

Psa 30:9\t"What profit [is there] in my blood, When I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise You? Will it declare Your truth?


Job said something similar to the Lord did he not?

Then we have this testimony by David..


Psa 30:11\tYou have turned for me my mourning into dancing; You have put off my sackcloth and clothed me with gladness,

Psa 30:12\tTo the end that [my] glory may sing praise to You and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give thanks to You forever.


Self righteousness comes by following the law, the love of God comes by following the Holy Spirit.

R
rookie

Phl 3:8\tYet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ

Phl 3:9\tand be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which [is] from the law, but that which [is] through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;


How did God enable Paul to know the difference between righteousness that comes from following the law, and righteousness which is from God by faith? The answer is found in the testimony we have from the book of Job.

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rookie

Poonen writes,

"In Job, chapters 26-31, Job gives a list of all the many good things he had done in his life to help others. As we read through these chapters, it is amazing to see the tremendous light that Job had about God and His ways and the high standard of life that he lived way back in those days when there was no Bible and without the indwelling Holy Spirit. It is good to look through some things in these chapters, because they put us to shame and challenge us to live at a much higher standard today."


He states that the testimonies of the Old Testament Saints put us to shame and that we are called to a 'much higher standard today." Is this statement based on the law or the Spirit? Let us see...

First let me state that if God does not through His Holy Spirit, extend the grace necessary for the situation, what can man do. Are we truly called to a higher standard compared with the OT Saints? Or are we like the OT Saints, in that all generations, are subject to the same work of the
Holy Spirit?

Meditate upon this Scripture and see if there is a difference...


Psa 34:4\tI sought the LORD, and He heard me, And delivered me from all my fears.

Psa 34:5\tThey looked to Him and were radiant, And their faces were not ashamed.

Psa 34:6\tThis poor man cried out, and the LORD heard [him], And saved him out of all his troubles.

Psa 34:7\tThe angel [fn] of the LORD encamps all around those who fear Him, And delivers them.

Psa 34:8\tOh, taste and see that the LORD [is] good; Blessed [is] the man [who] trusts in Him!
....

Psa 34:15\tThe eyes of the LORD [are] on the righteous, And His ears [are open] to their cry.
...
Psa 34:17\t[The righteous] cry out, and the LORD hears, And delivers them out of all their troubles.

Psa 34:18\tThe LORD [is] near to those who have a broken heart, And saves such as have a contrite spirit.

Psa 34:19\tMany [are] the afflictions of the righteous, But the LORD delivers him out of them all.

Psa 34:20\tHe guards all his bones; Not one of them is broken.
...
Psa 34:22\tThe LORD redeems the soul of His servants, And none of those who trust in Him shall be condemned.

Many are the afflictions of the righteous, and the righteous cry out, and He delivers them. Is there any difference in God's work upon the righteous? Compare Psalm 34 with the writings of Paul...be a berean, seek the truth...

R
rookie

Poonen writes:

" We cannot blame Job for complaining. He didn’t have a Bible, the indwelling Holy Spirit, or a brother to encourage him. But Paul never complained; and neither need we."


Again, this is a confusing thought that is not based on the Scriptures. Poonen uses the word "complaining" to describe Job's interaction with God. But the Scriptures say this...


Job 31:35\tOh, that I had one to hear me! Here is my mark. [Oh, that] the Almighty would answer me, [That] my Prosecutor had written a book!


Poonen himself assigns the meaning to the Scripture above as representative of Job crying out to God.

"He cries out to God to answer him (v.35)."


Yet Poonen says that we should not cry out as Job. This is just the opposite of what Scripture declares.


Here is a riddle... What differentiates a humble man from a proud man? You will find the answer in the Scriptures...


R
rookie

Job 36:13\t"But the hypocrites in heart store up wrath; They do not cry for help when He binds them.

P
PaulWest

Brother, I think ZP was referring to fleshly complaints, depression and contentions, and not spiritually unburdening oneself to God. There is a world of difference between the two, as I imagine you understand. I think his point was that it is possible to be joyful evermore (I Thes. 5:16), and rejoice always in the Lord (Phil 4:4) under the New Covenant as opposed to under the law, and this would preclude any fleshly grumbling or complaining.

New Covenant scripture exhorts us to cast all our cares upon the Lord, just like we read in various Psalms (i.e. 103:13), as well as in other parts of the Old Testament. But if you look at each OT character carefully, you'll find highs and lows, complaining and victory, exuberance and depression, faith and doubting. From Abraham all the way to the prophets, including John the Baptist who suddenly had doubts about Christ while in prison.

But after Pentecost and the Spirit's infilling, all this changed. New Covenant believers were a new breed! They were filled with everlasting joy and victory, with stalwart surety and faith, going from triumph to triumph despite the rising persecution from all sides and the philosophical arguments intended to derail the "Christian" sect.

Dear brother, I have no interest in debating with you. These are just my thoughts. Have a great day!

Brother Paul

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rookie

Brother Paul wrote:


"Dear brother, I have no interest in debating with you. These are just my thoughts. Have a great day!"


I share for this precept is at work in my life....


Pro 27:17\t[As] iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend.


God Bless
Jeff

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rookie

Paul wrote:

" But if you look at each OT character carefully, you'll find highs and lows, complaining and victory, exuberance and depression, faith and doubting. From Abraham all the way to the prophets, including John the Baptist who suddenly had doubts about Christ while in prison."

and...


"New Covenant believers were a new breed! They were filled with everlasting joy and victory, with stalwart surety and faith, going from triumph to triumph despite the rising persecution from all sides"

How many sisters and brother in Christ do you know who resemble your first thought and how many sisters and brothers fit your description in the second thought?


I once was a romantic christian, but then I did not know the Scriptures as well as I do now...

Let's us get real with one another Paul

In Love
Jeff

S
sermonindex

JOB

Despite great loss including his health, Job did not sin and continued to praise God. He accepted all things as from the hand of God though it was clearly shown that God did not send the evil. He permitted it and it was Satan who was the instigator. He had learned the secret of overcoming, that is to say, in thanking God for all things knowing that He could have stepped in and prevented evil but He often does not and Job had learned well that the most important thing is the state and health of our spirit, not material ease or the love and support of family and friends and that it is through suffering that we grow into spiritual maturity, unto the full stature of a man in Christ who also learned and grew through suffering proving God`s word that all things work to the good of those who are one with Him.

Reading through Job, certain verses stand out like beacons, acting as interpretive keys. The first is in the description of Job as a holy man. The book is not primarily about suffering though it does answer the question of it in those who are on the holy path like Job. It is about holiness or sanctification and those who are on the same journey will understand.

Chapter three opens up the reason why we suddenly find Job in utter misery and despair whereas previous to this he had peace and joy. He speaks of darkness and the shadow of death, the blackness of the day and the solitary night (3:6) where `no joyful voice come therein` (3:7) Job is describing the experience of being deserted by God where the light he had previously walked in, had been taken away and now he was in darkness, and he found himself in utter confusion (10:15).

The thing he had dreaded had come upon him, where he no longer dwelt in the rest that remains for the people of God nor in the safety of being sheltered under the wing of God. Job could cope with anything that life threw at him, even losing all he had so long as he was dwelling close to his Saviour and upheld by the arms of God and for us we too know the peace that passeth understanding while walking in His presence, on the mountain top, but God had consented to his sifting by Satan and those today who have walked in holiness, will one day find themselves plunged into the wilderness and experience that which their Master had been required to go through too.

Job finds himself in the wilderness and is tempted by three voices from what are supposed to be his friends. It may be that the three voices are going on inside of Job`s head, the voices of human reasoning standing against the voice of Job`s former spiritual insights when he was walking in the light and holy and therefore having the discernment to see things from God`s point of view through having the mind of Christ. Although the light has gone, he retains the knowledge and argues back from it, reasoning against his opponents accusations that:

a) even though he admits that he has lost his assurance that he is holy, he once was confirming that man can live without sinning

b) it was not sin which brought about his downfall therefore he is not being punished by God. God later confirms that Job was correct and that the voices were wrong.

It is a point of torture for those who are on the same path and who fall into the dark night, to seek the sin which has caused their fall from grace.

Job reproves the voices and shows they are not coming from divine wisdom. He shows that the attitude of Eliphaz is wrong and not coming from the Holy Spirit and of a heart of love when he says in response (6:14) `To him that is afflicted, pity should be shown from his friends, but he forsaketh the fear of the Lord`. Eliphaz is not walking in the Spirit.

`Do you imagine to reprove words and the speeches of one who is desperate which are as wind?` (6:26) How true it is that those who are in trauma and despair find little help and comfort, even in the place where help should be found – in the church especially those who are passing through the dark night of the soul, and find like Jesus `I looked for comforters but there were none`.

May we be mindful not to increase the sufferings of such as these by correcting their confused thoughts with `sound doctrine`, in the meantime without pity or love. Instead how often do we overwhelm the fatherless, digging them a pit (6:27) instead of encouraging them that the Lord always returns to those whom He has seemingly deserted.

Job asks `How long wilt thou not depart from me nor let me alone till I swallow down my spittle?` (7:19) He begins to think that the cause is that he has sinned for this is the explanation of the voices but he does not understand because he desires to be restored and repents but with no result. `And why dost Thou not pardon my transgressions and take away mine iniquity?` (7:21) (If this is the reason for the desertion)

Job wishes to be restored but it does not happen so the voices put the blame on him. O how often is this repeated in the churches? Then Bildad speaks `If though wouldest seek unto God betimes, and make thy supplication to the Almighty, IF though wert pure and upright surely now we would awake for thee (8:5). The voices have no understanding of the higher works of God which are above human reasoning which His holy ones must go through. Perhaps this is the voice of temptation seeking to destroy Job`s faith. Job pleads with God `Do not condemn me show me therefore Thou contendeth with me (10:2) The way to the Holy of Holies is a strange and narrow path.

Job shows his superior spiritual standing by his longing to be restored to God and his agony when not in the conscious presence of the Lord, not content to be standing in position only, living in the dead letter of the word and not with the Living Word as his guide. `O that I knew where I might find Him that I might come even to His seat` (Song of Songs 23:3) and echo the plea of the Shulamite in Song of Solomon (SS 3:11) by night on my bed I sought Him whom my soul loveth, I sought Him but I found Him not, the seeking bride cried out, `I opened to my beloved but my beloved had withdrawn Himself and was gone.

My soul faileth when He spoke, I sought Him but I could not find Him, I called Him but He gave no answer` (SS 5:6) and like Job and His comforters. `The watchmen that went about the city found me; they smote me; they wounded me; they the keepers of the wall took away my veil from me (SS 5:7).

Job prophesised his own restoration (23:10) `But He knoweth the way that I take, when He hath tried me I shall come forth as gold, as the Shulamite emerges (SS 7:5) `Who is this that cometh up from the wilderness leaning upon her beloved. Jealousy is cruel as the grave, the coals the re are coals of fire which hath a most vehement flame`.

There is no need to fear, however, the purification and cleansing of the Lord as the famous hymn neatly puts it in How Firm a Foundation :

When through fiery trials thy pathway shall lie
His grace all sufficient shall be thy supply
The flame shall not hurt thee His only design
Thy dross to consume and thy gold to refine.

Job had questioned God and had not waited patiently for Him to return. He was not self righteous, his claim for holiness and his dispute with his friends that sin had not brought about the separation from God was correct. He had spoken the truth even though now he had fallen. `I have sinned , what shall I do unto Thee O Thou preserver of men? Why hast Thou set me as a mark against Thee so that I am a burden to myself? And why dost Thou not pardon my transgressions and take away my iniquity? For now shall I sleep in the dust, and Thou shall seek me in the morning but I shall not be` (7:20-21).

In his speech, Job asks God three questions and shows the extent of the sinfulness he had fallen into, by calling the Almighty, the creator of the universe into question and then issuing a threat like a peeved lover - `I will no longer be around when you decide to end this desertion of yours and bother to come looking for me. Why do you not end this and return me to my previous position by taking away my iniquity so that I can be holy again and have the respect I formerly commanded when men would listen to me and not even have a reply, whereas now I am burdened by these `comforters` who call me a liar and a hypocrite.`


Job had much to learn about being a submissive slave to his Master, allowing Him to grace him with His presence or depart at will which means walking by faith alone. He must learn that all we possess belongs to God and not to ourselves. Although Job acknowledged this when his family and possessions were taken away from him, the spiritual benefits he had received, such as his high standing amongst men and having the presence of God with him, were claimed by Job as his own. He was not happy when they were taken away from him, but God brought Job to his knees when the tables were turned and God returned the questions, questions which reduced Job to the size ofa tiny speck in relation to creation. Job abhored himself when he saw himself as the light clearly showed him in relation to Almighty God which the repentance that restored him back into fellowship with the Saviour.

R
rookie

krautfrau wrote:

"In his speech, Job asks God three questions and shows the extent of the sinfulness he had fallen into, by calling the Almighty, the creator of the universe into question and then issuing a threat like a peeved lover - `I will no longer be around when you decide to end this desertion of yours and bother to come looking for me. Why do you not end this and return me to my previous position by taking away my iniquity so that I can be holy again and have the respect I formerly commanded when men would listen to me and not even have a reply, whereas now I am burdened by these `comforters` who call me a liar and a hypocrite.`"


But also writes this....


"Job had questioned God and had not waited patiently for Him to return. He was not self righteous,"


We have this testimony in Scripture...


Job 32:2\tThen the wrath of Elihu, the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, was aroused against Job; his wrath was aroused because he justified himself rather than God.


When one tries to justify himself before God, from what standard does one's view point find it's foundation?

S
sermonindex

`When one tries to justify himself before God, from what standard does one's view point find it's foundation?`

rookie, I agree that Job at this point was fallen. What I meant that he was not self righteous before that in thinking he was perfect. He was perfect.

R
rookie

Krautfrau wrote:

"rookie, I agree that Job at this point was fallen. What I meant that he was not self righteous before that in thinking he was perfect. He was perfect."

I agree with one distinction...


Lev 4:27\t'If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally by doing [something against] any of the commandments of the LORD [in anything] which ought not to be done, and is guilty,

Lev 4:28\t'or if his sin which he has committed comes to his knowledge, then he shall bring as his offering a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he has committed.


God's purpose in this trial was to teach Job something he did not know before the trial.

Pro 17:3\tThe refining pot [is] for silver and the furnace for gold, But the LORD tests the hearts.


As you have said, Job followed the Holy Spirit, and in faith, grew in all Spiritual understanding. Many preachers today speak of the teaching of Jesus on adultery and say that Jesus taught something new. Yet we find that Job also understood and testified in like manner.

Like Job, we today can have the Holy Spirit teach us many things. But like Job, God will test us, to show us what we do not yet understand about our own walk with Him. Unintentional sin is the sin we have not yet recognized about ourselves. God does not hold that against us. It is God's grace that must first teach us what we do not understand. Like Job, only then are we held accountable to what God has revealed to us. And then as in Leviticus 4:28, once we know then we are called to repent. And this Job did.

may God continue to teach us sister about His ways...
Jeff

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rookie

Poonen's last sentence...

" But Paul never complained; and neither need we."


As I have stated before, according to Scripture, Paul did cry out three times before God revealed to him the purpose of his affliction.


We also covered this spiritual precept...


Job 36:8\tAnd if [they are] bound in fetters, Held in the cords of affliction,

Job 36:9\tThen He tells them their work and their transgressions--That they have acted defiantly.

Job 36:10\tHe also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity.
.....

Job 36:12\tBut if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge. [fn]

Job 36:13\t"But the hypocrites in heart store up wrath; They do not cry for help when He binds them.


After God has through the Holy Spirit, revealed instruction to the one He binds, if then one does not obey, this one shall die without knowledge.


This precept of knowledge is key to this topic. We know that both men, Job and Paul were without knowledge as to the reason God binded each one. Only after both men cried out to God repeatedly did He reveal knowledge to each man. We know that these testimonies correspond to the Scriptures which teach about God's chastening...

Hbr 12:11\tNow no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.


God's affliction is not joyful but painful in the present, but afterwards it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. So we see that during the time of affliction, God does not expect his sons to enjoy the present work. But it is afterwards, once knowledge is imparted to the son, that this work of God brings understanding to the son that has endured the painful experience.

Here is a riddle...how is the word, "trained" connected to "knowledge"?


R
rookie


Mat 27:46\tAnd about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" [fn]

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rookie

Again Poonen exhorts us...

"But Paul never complained; and neither need we?"

I listened to this song this morning by Casting Crown...

"Stained Glass Masquerade"

Is there anyone that fails
Is there anyone that falls
Am I the only one in church today feelin' so small

Cause when I take a look around
Everybody seems so strong
I know they'll soon discover
That I don't belong

So I tuck it all away, like everything's okay
If I make them all believe it, maybe I'll believe it too
So with a painted grin, I play the part again
So everyone will see me the way that I see them

Are we happy plastic people
Under shiny plastic steeples
With walls around our weakness
And smiles to hide our pain
But if the invitation's open
To every heart that has been broken
Maybe then we close the curtain
On our stained glass masquerade

Is there anyone who's been there
Are there any hands to raise
Am I the only one who's traded
In the altar for a stage

The performance is convincing
And we know every line by heart
Only when no one is watching
Can we really fall apart

But would it set me free
If I dared to let you see
The truth behind the person
That you imagine me to be

Would your arms be open
Or would you walk away
Would the love of Jesus
Be enough to make you stay

If we seek to do what Poonen encourages we too become "happy plastic people."

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roadsign

I get troubled whenever I see OT saints placed in a distinct category – as if they were less spiritual and that explains their emotional eruptions.

About 70 % of the psalms are called Complaint Psalms. They are beautifully crafted, with evidence of exceptional literary skill. These very psalms became used for singing in religious gatherings. The experiences, distresses – as expressed in the psalms were offerings acceptable to God – and had a purpose in the life of God’s people.

These OT saints who complained bitterly knew their God, and they found their hope in God’s unfailing promises – eternal redemption. THAT is what gave them hope. Their complaints always moved them towards hope. “I will yet praise him”. This is no doubt why they became holy writ. At the core, they were prophetic.

Imagine: If the NT took as long to write as the OT – and if it covered as wide a range of history and life experience, we’d see just as many complaint psalms.

It is OUR pampered culture that has conditioned us to deny the strong expression of negative emotion. And that is at the root of many emotional disorders. People stay stuck hiding behind the "Stained Glass Masquerade". Our culture has become adept at denying and suppressing negative emotion – like grief, sorrow, anger, fear, etc. And when people crack, we call the psychiatrist. What a sad commentary on our societal values.

------------------------


Consider the cursing psalms. We don’t hear these in church - especially words like: “O God, break the teeth in their mouths” from Psalm 58:6. These prayers can be disturbing. They may sound self righteous or paranoid, or even vengeful. Yancey sees these utterances as “samplings of private spiritual journals of people struggling with what they believe.” God is the intended audience. The words are honest expressions, so they ring true. What’s important is that, even when everything is going badly and life is falling apart, the psalmist is still talking with God and he has not turned his back on God.

The cursing psalms teach an important lesson: When things get unbearable or injustices assail us - when life is more than we can bear, we can still face our heavenly Father. He can handle our rants. We vent our pain and process our thoughts in his presence. But we don’t turn our backs on God by taking vengeance in our own hands or by suppressing our fear, grief, and rage. We realize that we are utterly dependent on God, and are convinced that God will come through for us. We know he himself will avenge evil. Rom. 12:19

At the end of Psalm 58, we see that the psalmist has settled down. He says, “Surely the righteous will be rewarded; surely there is a God who judges the earth.” Ps. 58:11 These words reveal a sense of hope.

Our complaint prayer can be like that for us: We wrestle through with God. We utter all our disturbed and chaotic thoughts – maybe by journaling, poetry or art; or we let Scriptures express for us what we can’t. Then after the storm we become silent in God’s presence … breathing quietly with the Spirit … waiting … resting peacefully again.

Diane

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roadsign

The temptation that threatens to overtake us is to complain to one another and gossip about one another....and the way of escape is to go to God and trust Him with all the pain and hurt, anger and bitterness.

This is it! The difference then is in the direction we face: towards God or away from God. One is of unbelief, the other of faith. One leads to bitterness, the other to hope.

Could it not be said that ungodly complaints are like a stethoscope on our hearts? We “hear” our spiritual condition for ourselves – something we may never have recognized in fine times. So then the complainer may be on a path closer to God than the one with the frozen smile singing praise choruses.

Job is a good example, isn’t he? He discovered God to be profoundly mightier than he had ever imagined before. His complaints were part of the journey to discovery - as good or bad as they may have been.

Diane

P
pilgrim777

The Lord is not fragile. He can handle our strong emotions and "complaints" to Him.

I think Job is one of the greatest saints. But why do we compare ourselves among ourselves and measure ourselves by ourselves?

The reason anyone overcomes is because of Jesus Christ.

No many can say with all their heart what Job said, in the very thick of his trials. "Though he slay me, yet will I trust Him"

James 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

Pilgrim

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rookie

pilgrim777 wrote:

"No many can say with all their heart what Job said, in the very thick of his trials. "Though he slay me, yet will I trust Him"


Scripture teaches us that men like Job and Paul have traveled a long time with the Lord prior to what we might see as extreme trials and tribulations. God has done a great work in these men. By walking with God for so long, these men have learned by faith, that the grace that they have experienced, has always been given to tear down what was not of God and then to build up and to strenghten one for the next day.

It is the sum, of this personal knowledge received in training, that creates in us the trust of God of our lives. The goal of God is to create in us, His children, a love for Him.


So it is wrong to teach that everyone should not complain as Job or Paul. For those who try to live up to this teaching will most likely find themselves in a "Stained Glass Masquerade."


This is how we should live...


Hbr 12:12\tTherefore strengthen the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees,

Hbr 12:13\tand make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be dislocated, but rather be healed.


R
roadsign

So it is wrong to teach that everyone should not complain as Job or Paul. For those who try to live up to this teaching will most likely find themselves in a "Stained Glass Masquerade."

Thank you, Rookie, for drumming out this mantra. This reminds me of an experience:

One day many years ago, during a formal pastoral visit I began sharing how I had been angry at God. I intended to share with the pastor and elder the tremendous spiritual victory that resulted. However, before I could speak further, I was told that is it wrong to be angry at God. Instantly, Bibles were opened and a litany of verses were quoted. When that was all over, it seemed too anticlimactic to share my exciting testimony. Sadly, my spiritual authorities never learned how my anger came to be, and how God gloriously set me free –that is, how he broke me free from the Glass Menagerie. The unspoken “scripture” went like this: “Always let the sun go down on your anger, and keep it there forever.”

Perhaps we can partially blame Calvin who believed that the cursing psalms were uttered under divine inspiration. The psalmists, he believed, were acting as God’s prophets in declaring God’s judgments on sinners. But because we are un-inspired, we are not permitted to speak that way.

I thank Yancey for offering a different perspective – one that is far more likely to “strengthen the hands that hang down, and make the lame be healed". This perspective makes much more of the Bible much more accessible to many more people in their fuller life experience.


Thank you for understanding. It is an honor.

Diane

R
rookie

In the book of 1 John we find that John makes a distinction between maturity levels in believers. He like Paul recognizes that there are children, young men, and fathers amongst the brethren. Knowledge and understanding is what seperates the children from the young men, the young men from the fathers of the church. Likewise, mercy should also be the dividing mark between the children, young men, and fathers. What I mean by this, is that the father has traveled far with the Lord and thus has experienced a greater mearsure of mercy from the Lord. A man or woman who has traveled this path has the knowledge and understanding of how the Lord works in the life of the believer. And as the Lord has extended His mercy to him or her, through love one must extend that same mercy to the little ones of the flock.

Listen to this testimony of a father of the congregation...


Psa 119:57\tHETH. [You are] my portion, O LORD; I have said that I would keep Your words.

Psa 119:58\tI entreated Your favor with [my] whole heart; Be merciful to me according to Your word.

Psa 119:59\tI thought about my ways, And turned my feet to Your testimonies.

Psa 119:60\tI made haste, and did not delay To keep Your commandments.

Psa 119:61\tThe cords of the wicked have bound me, [But] I have not forgotten Your law.

Psa 119:62\tAt midnight I will rise to give thanks to You, Because of Your righteous judgments.

Psa 119:63\tI [am] a companion of all who fear You, And of those who keep Your precepts.

Psa 119:64\tThe earth, O LORD, is full of Your mercy; Teach me Your statutes.

Psa 119:65\tTETH. You have dealt well with Your servant, O LORD, according to Your word.

Psa 119:66\tTeach me good judgment and knowledge, For I believe Your commandments.

Psa 119:67\tBefore I was afflicted I went astray, But now I keep Your word.

Psa 119:68\tYou [are] good, and do good; Teach me Your statutes.

Psa 119:69\tThe proud have forged a lie against me, [But] I will keep Your precepts with [my] whole heart.

Psa 119:70\tTheir heart is as fat as grease, [But] I delight in Your law.

Psa 119:71\t[It is] good for me that I have been afflicted, That I may learn Your statutes.

Psa 119:72\tThe law of Your mouth [is] better to me Than thousands of [coins of] gold and silver.

Search out the testimony of this man's understanding "after" he had been "afflicted" by the Lord. A immature believer does not have the knowledge and understanding that would enable him rejoice when trials come upon him. An immature believer has not yet experienced this precept which we find in the book of Hebrews...


Hbr 12:11\tNow no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

Hbr 12:12\tTherefore strengthen the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees,


A young believer has just entered boot camp. We who have more seasoning should be the one's who sow and water, yet it still remains, that only the Lord gives the increase.

A young believer cannot fathom this...

Psa 119:71\t[It is] good for me that I have been afflicted, That I may learn Your statutes.

R
rookie

Psa 119:67 Before I was afflicted I went astray, But now I keep Your word.

Psa 119:71 [It is] good for me that I have been afflicted, That I may learn Your statutes.


This man has said that the affliction brought about understanding. Listen to what this understanding meant to him...


Psa 119:75 I know, O LORD, that Your judgments [are] right, And [that] in faithfulness You have afflicted me.


The Lord is faithfull to those who are afflicted. Now listen to what Job has to say to his friends who added to his affliction...


Job 6:14 "To him who is afflicted, kindness [should be shown] by his friend, Even though he forsakes the fear of the Almighty.


Kindness should be shown to those who are suffering affliction. But his friends forsook the fear of the Almighty.


So then how do we show kindness to those who are suffering?


R
rookie

"So then how do we show kindness to those who are suffering?"


Psa 119:76 Let, I pray, Your merciful kindness be for my comfort, According to Your word to Your servant.

Psa 119:77 Let Your tender mercies come to me, that I may live; For Your law [is] my delight.


To start....

This man knows the Lord is merciful, His ways are tender and kind.


So if we say to our brother or sister according to Poonen...

"But Paul never complained; and neither need we."

Is this the way of the Lord?


How does the Lord minister His tender mercies and kindness?


P
pilgrim777

The Lord ministers His tender mercies and kindness in many ways.

1) By His Spirit
2) Through His Body
3) Even through kind and compassionate people that may not be Believers.

Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

The Lord showed us in the examples of Job's comforters how NOT to be.

We are called to love, forgive, be merciful and this will allow the Holy Spirit to do what He needs to do in the hearts of others.

Jobs comforters show me that self-sufficient men that have never had problems don't think anyone should "complain" to God. Job's comforters (self-sufficient, trusting in themselves) did not show mercy because they have never experienced it.

Pilgrim

R
rookie

pilgrim 777 wrote:

"The Lord ministers His tender mercies and kindness in many ways.

1) By His Spirit
2) Through His Body
3) Even through kind and compassionate people that may not be Believers."


Yes. Let's take each one at a time...What does Scriptures say about how God, by His Spirit, extends His tender mercies to those who are afflicted?

P
pilgrim777

Rookie, I added this one to the list.

2) He comforts us through the Scriptures.

"The Lord ministers His tender mercies and kindness in many ways.

1) By His Spirit
Php 2:1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,

2) Through the Scriptures
Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

3) Through His Body
1Th 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

2Co 7:13 Therefore we were comforted in your comfort: yea, and exceedingly the more joyed we for the joy of Titus, because his spirit was refreshed by you all.

4) Even through kind and compassionate people that may not be Believers."
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Pilgrim

R
rookie

"Let's take each one at a time...What does Scriptures say about how God, by His Spirit, extends His tender mercies to those who are afflicted?"

Job 36:7\tHe does not withdraw His eyes from the righteous; But [they are] on the throne with kings, For He has seated them forever, And they are exalted.

Job 36:8\tAnd if [they are] bound in fetters, Held in the cords of affliction,

Job 36:9\tThen He tells them their work and their transgressions--That they have acted defiantly.

Job 36:10\tHe also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity.


In the book of Job we see that the Holy Spirit opens man's ears to instruction, God speaks to man. Listen to what the Scriptures say in the book of Job...


Job 42:7\tAnd so it was, after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "My wrath is aroused against you and your two friends, for you have not spoken of Me [what is] right, as My servant Job [has].

Psa 119:49\tZAYIN. Remember the word to Your servant, Upon which You have caused me to hope.

Psa 119:50\tThis [is] my comfort in my affliction, For Your word has given me life.


In verse 49, is this not the definition of faith that we are given in the book of Hebrews?

R
rookie

In the midst of affliction we have this testimony of the writer of Psalm 119...

Psa 119:81\tKAPH. My soul faints for Your salvation, But I hope in Your word.

Psa 119:82\tMy eyes fail [from searching] Your word, Saying, "When will You comfort me?"

Psa 119:83\tFor I have become like a wineskin in smoke, [Yet] I do not forget Your statutes.


This man has, through walking with the Lord, found that only God's word can bring comfort. We find that God has trained this man to search the Scriptures for comfort. Through the Holy Spirit, this man has found that God's word has always been the substance of his hope.


Psa 119:105\tNUN. Your word [is] a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.

Psa 119:106\tI have sworn and confirmed That I will keep Your righteous judgments.

Psa 119:107\tI am afflicted very much; Revive me, O LORD, according to Your word.


Job testifies of the same precept...

Job 42:3\t[You asked], 'Who [is] this who hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.


Job declares that due to his lack of understanding he uttered foolish words. But now that God has given him understanding, it is this understanding that cause Job's heart to swell with praise. God revealed "Things too wonderful for (him), which (he) did not know."


These are the tender mercies of the Lord. Until the Lord speaks there is no comfort. Until He gives one understanding, one is unable to do anything about his or her circumstance.


What then is the source of our affliction? Why does God's ways cause us to suffer?


R
rookie

"What then is the source of our affliction? Why does God's ways cause us to suffer? "

Job 33:19\t"[Man] is also chastened with pain on his bed, And with strong [pain] in many of his bones,

Job 33:20\tSo that his life abhors bread, And his soul succulent food.

Job 33:21\tHis flesh wastes away from sight, And his bones stick out [which once] were not seen.

Job 33:22\tYes, his soul draws near the Pit, And his life to the executioners.

Job 33:23\t"If there is a messenger for him, A mediator, one among a thousand, To show man His uprightness,

Job 33:24\tThen He is gracious to him, and says, 'Deliver him from going down to the Pit; I have found a ransom';

Job 33:25\tHis flesh shall be young like a child's, He shall return to the days of his youth.

Job 33:26\tHe shall pray to God, and He will delight in him, He shall see His face with joy, For He restores to man His righteousness.

Job 33:27\tThen he looks at men and says, 'I have sinned, and perverted [what was] right, And it did not profit me.'

Job 33:28\tHe will redeem his [fn] soul from going down to the Pit, And his [fn] life shall see the light.

Job 33:29\t"Behold, God works all these [things], Twice, [in fact], three [times] with a man,

Job 33:30\tTo bring back his soul from the Pit, That he may be enlightened with the light of life.

This is one of God's ways of saving men from the pit, so that they might be enlightened with the light of life.


But this is not the "source" or reason for our affliction, it is the consequence of something more basic, what is it?

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