question about a book i just bought, unsure about it?

Your description of a "strange presence" doesn't necessarily disqualify the book. When the Holy Spirit disapproves of something He will let you know in the depths of your spirit where He resides, not with the manifestation you describe. I owned that book years ago and gave it to a warrior that could use it better than I. I haven't had it since, but wish that I did. Lewis is in the same school of thought as Madame Guyon and Watchman Nee. If you find it difficult to understand you may need to leave it be for a while. If in doubt I would suggest you leave it be. There are many things that occur in spiritual warfare that she experienced that we may not know or understand in ordinary circumstances. If I'm not mistaken she wrote that on the heals of the Welsh revival in early 1900's with Evan Roberts.

I have both the abridged and the full version of the book. I do recommend it - as I think she addresses a legitimate issue. She has a particular emphasis which I think still has a place in Christian dialogue today - especially among those who emphasize relying on the Spirit. She demonstrates how this teaching can become dangerously misguided. I have seen some of the phenomena she addresses in people whom I know who have been caught up in unauthentic revival/renewal movements.

Another book I have by her is called "The Spiritual Warfare" which I highly recommend.

I would likely find it interesting reading these books again - 15 years later - and see how I read her now.

PS The book has nothing to do with the locking of the thread. It was another concern that developed - unfortunately.

Diane

My philosophy is if you are uncertain about something don't put it in your body, this works well with food and doctrine lol ;)

John,

Matthew is right but it's not necessarily the book, I don't think YOU should read any book until you are more stable in the Lord. Why do this to yourself, you don't even know if you're saved and now you want to go and read a penn-lewis book?

Myself and others have told you this before, STOP the insanity of reading every Tom, Dick and Mary. Do you even read the Bible? Please begin to only read the Bible, get a parallel edition of KJV and NIV or something else along with TONS of paper and pencils/pens and read THAT from morning till night for at least six months to a year and begin to set aside time to pray for everyone but yourself to see the needs of others. I love you in the Lord brother but there is no magic pill (or book) that is going to set you free but only the power of the Holy Spirit.

God bless you,
Lisa

Hi John,
When any of us posts a question on an open forum, we are going to get all kinds of responses. I see that Lisa is referring to former posts – which helps inform her response. She has a valid point: you don’t want to be like the sand drifting here and there leaning on people’s opinions. You do want to get grounded in the word and in the God of the word.

I re-read your first post here, and in view of your present religious context as you describe it – I feel quite strongly that Jesse Penn-Lewis’ writings can be of valuable help to you in this grounding process. Of course you need to read the bible and trust God, but let’s admit, we are all read our bible through a set of lens – which itself may need adjusting. Your church context is shaping your lens. And based on your words, I suspect that it is the very lens that Penn-Lewis is addressing – and rightly so. For that reason, I believe you could gain needed discernment by reading her book. She encourages you to think - to use your mind. And you need to gain that skill especially in a religious environment that leans towards an over-entanglement in the spirit world - at the expense of one’s cognitive facilities - in other words: passivity of the mind.

PS I just tried looking for her “The Spiritual Warfare” book on line – because it is shorter and more concise, but I can’t find it. But you can purchase it at amazon.com. It may be the easier way to go for you.

I’ve read a lot of books on spiritual warfare – and I still see Penn-Lewis as a needed balance.

Diane

Read the scripturres and they alone.

Blaine, I’m afraid I cannot let your statement pass unchallenged – after having read the words of Oswald Chambers, author of “My Utmost for His Highest”. He wrote:

“When people refer to a man as ‘a man of one book,’ meaning the Bible, he is generally found to be a man of multitudinous books, which simply isolates the one Book to its proper grandeur. The man who reads only the Bible does not, as a rule, know it, or human life.” (From Chamber’s biography, “Abandoned to God” by D. McCasland).

Chambers once told his students: “More than half of the side-tacks and all the hysterical phenomena that seize whole communities of people, like a pestiferous epidemic, from time to time, arise from spiritual laziness and intellectual sloth on the part of so-called religious teachers. There are a host of Holiness adventurers whose careers would suddenly end, if vigorous sanctified saints were abroad.”

This is the very issue Penn-Lewis addresses. To suggest that her work is unnecessary is, I fear, to naively contribute to the prevalence of side-tracks among the people of God – and the very same heresy the sidetracked a wonderful revival in the past.

Chambers himself read widely, and he demanded it of his bible school students. We also see this habit in the writings and biographies of outstanding Christian leaders: They typically had a large reading repertoire and knowledge base. One of the most outstanding examples, I think, is Richard Wurmbrandt, himself.

Here’s my thought: If the Bible was enough then we would not need this website and its wealth of resources provided by the great saints. But I suggest that it is the neglect of these “gifts” to the church that enables heresy to flourish – just as Chambers claimed.

Therefore, having read her book, I feel it is best not to discourage anyone from reading Jesse Penn-Lewis, but instead pray that God will quicken its truth thereby.

Diane

I remember listening to a sermon on here a few weeks back and the speaker said the same thing - think it was Willie Mullan, but I could be wrong.

However, although not recalling who the speaker was, I did do one thing - I messaged an old friend, and told him that that particular book which I gave to him a few yrs back (because it was just collecting dust at my home), to burn it because of what this preacher said.

Anyway, I can't recall if it was Mullan or not... I think it was, but I could be wrong. But, as soon as I listened to what he briefly said about that book, I recalled that I had given it to this man, and immediately messaged him, apologizing that I gave it to him, and again asking him to burn it. I know he got the message I sent him, but I did not receive any response from him. Anyway, that's what happened to me just a few weeks back.

I think I will stick with the book that is working for the persecuted. And its not Jessie Penn Lewis.

This is true. Jessie Penn Lewis was not talking to the persecuted church, but to a genuine issue that arose in her day. So, where that particular issue does not exist, her material is not necessary. My own church is an example. Therefore I would not recommend it to anyone in my church. It is not relevant. We have other issues – issues that are also serious barriers to the Word of God. And thankfully there are perceptive saints addressing those issues.

Someone once noted that the scripture is best understood in persecution – and I can see that. Much of it was written under persecution. Praise God, he has given us a Word that thrives best and most purely in persecution.

Diane

I just re-listened to Mullan's 2 sermons on demonology, but I didn't come across the quote. I think the sermon in my phone though, so when I ever come across it again, I'll toss up the link, and the time in the sermon where the quote can be found, but basically the teacher said that "War on the Saints" was a book that somewhat was glorifying to the powers of darkness.
Now, I never read the book myself, but only a few chapters, and it didn't really interest me over a short season so I set it down.
I don't know Penn-Lewis, meaning I haven't fully read her material, nor researched her biograhies in any way; and, I haven't heard neither Mr Daniel, Washer, Akanni, Poonen, and some other men of God in our generation quote her material either... And I can say, for what I know thus far, neither did Paris Reidhead, Ian Thomas, Harry Ironside, Vance Havner, Aiden Tozer, and a few others from all the sermons and notes I've collected in the past.
Please note, that I'm not attempting to say something negative about Penn-Lewis indirectly, but I am just stating some facts from what I've heard, and haven't heard, from men much more Godly than myself.

Jeshuaboy,

Her reference to demons is controversial. The abridged version was an attempt by certain Baptists (if I heard correctly) to sanitize some of that out. I regret that she is accused of glorifying demons! That comment reflects more about the people saying it.

Many Christians want to avoid any reference to demons. Darrel Champlain, a missionary (whom you can find here on SI) faced that prohibition whenever he came home to the US on furlough. Church authorities would forbid him from mentioning anything about demons. Yet most of his work among the jungle people involved deliverance from demons. (I was there many years ago visiting him and his family on the field, and that's how I became aware of all that)

Penn-Lewis is not addressing spiritism in the jungles tribes. She is addressing a tragedy in revival. It's the same tragedy that could happen again on a massive scale - and has been happening, and is happening! I think other Christian writers touch on her concerns in other ways, but more needs to be said. Certainly there is no shortage of Biblical references to the theme of the Dulling of the Mind. Christendom would do well to remember Jessie Penn-Lewis! Besides she could add depth to the popular spiritual warfare writers - like Neil Anderson. (I think)

Jeshuaboy, you might find the following Wikipedia excerpt helpful:

She was involved in the 1904-1905 Welsh Revival, one of the largest Christian revivals ever to break out, although the revival was abruptly shortened with the mental and physical collapse of one of the leaders, Evan Roberts. Penn-Lewis traveled internationally to take her message to audiences in Russia, Scandinavia, Canada, the U.S., and India.

Penn-Lewis was close to Evan Roberts and there is some controversy associated with her influence over him. After the breakdown by Roberts cut the revival short, he stayed with the Penn-Lewis's for a couple of years, but never fully recovered. Ultimately, Penn-Lewis declared some of phenomena of the Welsh Revival to be the work of Satan, declaring her still controversial position in her book on spiritual warfare called War on the Saints, which describes the work of demons on Christians, the theme for which Penn-Lewis is most known.

Penn-Lewis was influenced by the reformed South African writer Andrew Murray among others, and her books contain quotes from him and references to his works. Frank Buchman, the founder of the Oxford Group, credits Penn-Lewis with helping him to turn his life around from depression when he heard her speak at a Keswick Convention.[3] She also influenced Johan Oscar Smith, the founder of Brunstad Christian Church[4] and the missionary statesman Norman Grubb [5]

Yeshuaboy:
I don't know Penn-Lewis, meaning I haven't fully read her material, nor researched her biograhies in any way; and, I haven't heard neither Mr Daniel, Washer, Akanni, Poonen, and some other men of God in our generation quote her material either...

Poonen in his autobiography said that, "men and women whose lives and writings have influenced me the most, have also been those who never went to a Bible-school themselves - Madam Guyon, Charles Finney, D.L.Moody, Jessie Penn-Lewis, Watchman Nee, A.W.Tozer, Sadhu Sundar Singh, Bakht Singh etc."

Watchman Nee a deeper life spiritual leader was influenced too by her teachings.

Jessie Penn-Lewis was first hand witness to the welsh revival and she was close to Evan Roberts, the instrument of God used in the welsh revival. Roberts stayed for years at the Penn-Lewis home to recover from his exhaustion and depression. Unfortunatly he was not completly revovered from his breakdown.

She was orthodox in the fundamentals of christian faith and she contributed with one article to the Fundamentals of orthodox chrisitan beliefs.(fundamentals were a set of 12 volumes written by well-known evangelical christians to counteract, lideralism, moderism and other isms)

She was a speaker at the Keswick conventions, which was a holiness movement with emphasis on higher christian life.

I just give you all the info as a short background of the author of "War on the Saints". I have not read all of her book myself, but I have read good portions from it. She was gifted with spiritual discernment of spirits, this is unquestionable in my mind. Evan Roberts contributed also in writing of the book.

On her book she talkes about the deception of evil spirits toward christians, who through passivity and sin have gievn ground to the enemy. I confess this book its strong meat and offers not just milk for the believers.

Christ victory at Calvary,is her spiritual basis of deliverance. To quote from her book, " The Scriptural ground for obtaining deliverance is the truth concerning Christ's full victory at calvary, through which every believer can be delivered from both the power of sin and Satan..."

Jesus-is-God said,

If you want to believe that born again spirit filled Christians can be "demon possessed" this book is for you.

I share a testimony – which may help in this dialogue:

Several years ago a lady gave me the little book “The Spiritual Warfare” by Jessie Penn Lewis. I did my usual underling and commenting in the margins. Around that time I was called to pray one Sunday in the church basement during the service. Often my prayer times include note writing. That day I happened to have “The Spiritual Warfare” with me, and found myself writing an extended series of points drawn from the book. Then, filled with an intense burden, I cried out, ‘God, the people need to know this stuff. No one has preached on it here. Someone needs to preach it!” Later that day I heard a recording of the sermon which I missed, and much to my utter amazement, it closely followed my notes – from beginning to end.

The devil would prefer the people to stay asleep, distracted, or misguided. He does NOT want God’s people to wake up and think – lest they disempower him, and lest they repent and turn to the Lord.

I believe that if we carefully read the book itself, and try to see the author's perspective, we would understand the nature of the war the author is addressing. Apart from reading it carefully, we just find ourselves talking over things that don't relate. (I think it would help to read her other material too - not just her one controversial book.)

Diane

possession" is the word she uses in the original

I remember a sermon by Paris Reidhead (or someone else here) in which he talks about subtle changes in word usage. The unsuspecting pew-dweller may not catch heresy in a speaker because for him the speaker is using all the right words.

So, before we ditch any writer without a fair "trial" – we do have to take a careful look at context and authorial intent. Or else, we will not only ditch good writers, we will find ourselves accepting heresies – and thinking it is all biblical because they use biblical words. It just doesn’t work to say, “I follow the Bible only”. Don’t all heresies make that claim?

Unfortunately, there is no easy short cut to good thinking.

Diane

Dear JIG and Blaine

I do agree with you both here that we ought to stick with word. I have seen the damage caused by this one subtle lie of the enemy that a truly born again believer can be demon possessed! Honestly saints to believe this is blasphemy against Our Lord Jesus Christ, in a way it actually implies that the work on the cross was not finished completely but rather left a tiny little for deliverance ministers to finish.Also how does the Holy Spirit share His temple which you are with a demon!

This certainly cant be " Let God be true and every man a liar"
Jessie Penn Lewis added her 2% poison to her book by saying believers can be possessed by demons a little lie spoils the truth. I have seen many believers come to bondage and living in fear of the devil and looking for demons every where blaming everything on the devil and demons rather than praising God for what HE has done. We have developed a culture whereby we find any excuse for allowing sin to continue to dominate us then we blame the devil for it,instead of being obedient to God and asking Him for the grace and power to overcome sin through the Holy Spirit and also ask Him to search our hearts to see if we truly are in the faith. Whom the son sets free is free indeed. I do understand that we all struggle with sin and we all have fallen short of the glory of God for if we say we do not sin as children of God we become liars. But to imply that believers can be demon possessed and read deeper into the so called deep secrets of satan is bringing damage to the body and causing many to stumble

Again I say let God be true and every man a liar do not go beyond what is written. Books by man and women are good for exhortation and encouragement but do not build your doctrine on their teachings but rather rightly divide the word of God.

Dear Approved

I agree with you that there is a difference between demonic activity and possession.But my concern is how JPL actually suggests a believer can be possessed by demons that I disagree with. These quotes are taken directly from war on the saints.

"Christians are as open to possession by evil spirits as other men, and become possessed because they have, in most cases, unwittingly fulfilled the conditions upon which evil spirits work, and, apart from the cause of willful sin, given ground to deceiving spirits, through (1) accepting their counterfeits of the Divine workings, and (2) cultivating passivity, and non-use of the faculties; and this through misconception of the spiritual laws which govern Christian life."

"Multitudes of believers are "possessed" in various degrees but do not know it, as they attribute the "manifestations" to "natural" causes,note 1 or to "self" or "sin," and they put them down to these causes because they do not appear to bear the characteristics of demoniacal possession."

"The fact of the demon possession of Christians destroys the theory that only people in "heathen countries," or persons deep in sin, can be "possessed" by evil spirits. This unexamined, unproved theory in the minds of believers, serves the devil well as a cover for his workings to gain possession of the minds and bodies, of Christians in the present time. But the veil is being stripped off the eyes of the children of God by the hard path of experience; and the knowledge is dawning upon the awakened section of the Church that a believer baptized in the Holy Ghost, and indwelt by God in the inner shrine of the spirit can be deceived into admitting evil spirits into his being; and be possessed,note 7 in varying degrees, by demons, even whilst in the centre he is a sanctuary of the Spirit of God; God working in, and through his spirit, and the evil spirits in, or through, mind, or body, or both."

War on the saints Jessie-Penn- Lewis 1912 unabridged version

I do believe in spiritual warfare in fact no believer is immune to it and what JPL points out about deception and false manifestations is true and evident even today however I find these above quotations to be questionable especially the latter statement. I am pointing out why I said some of her teaching on believer's demonic possession is the 2% poison.

The word of God tells me my body is the temple of the Lord, also not to be conformed to the world but to renew my mind to also have this mind in me that also was in Christ Jesus. The battle is in the mind the evil thoughts are the fiery darts of the wicked one but according to the word demons can not dwell in a believer.

JPL suggests that demons take over a believers mind and soul. KNOW YE NOT THAT YOU GOD'S Priced possession HE paid a high price for you He will never leave you nor forsake you.Greater is He that Lives in you than he that is in the world. Noteworthy to say the wicked one fires darts at us from outside and he lives outside of us he roams around like a lion seeking whom he may devour so do his demons. they don't and can't live in the believer. Test everything in light of scripture.

We ought to ask ourselves if a newly born again believer would benefit from such teaching or those who are weaker in faith would grow in the knowledge of Christ Jesus by reading
such things.It is not right to cause other believers to stumble some books out there are deceiving many and leading masses astray if a book diverts from the word and teaches a "new thing" Is it right for me to feed my brother that book or should I point them towards the ultimate Word of God the Holy Bible.

"Multitudes of believers are "possessed" in various degrees but do not know it, as they attribute the "manifestations" to "natural" causes,note 1 or to "self" or "sin," and they put them down to these causes because they do not appear to bear the characteristics of demoniacal possession."

Would it help to substitute the word “possession” with the word “controlled”? At least, that works better for me - and I think, it helps keep us on focus with the book.

Have you seen fellow believers come home with an “altered” persona from a highly charged charismatic event? That, I think, is a wee glimpse of the experience of JPL. I will never forget seeing it - that blank, distanced countenance: passivity of the mind. It's amazing. These Christians believe they have found a deeper blessing “of the Spirit”; but as an onlooker, it looks like they are more controlled than in control. You see a powerful deception developing! It's disturbing - even as it feels right to their senses. And it’s evil because it is filled with self righteous pride, it divides God’s people, and above all, it blocks the ability to discern and think. It’s an evil control that works through the senses.

Frankly, I don’t believe it is necessary to distribute ‘War on the Saints”. For one thing, it is very heavy. Church leaders would do well to be aware of the problem JPL addresses, but then seek to protect the people by training them to think – and to develop strong, disciplined cognitive capacities in light of scripure:

"Come back to your senses!" [1 Cor. 15:34].
"I don't want you to be ignorant." [12:1]
"Judge for yourself what I say." [10:15]
"The spiritual man makes judgments about all things." [2:15]

I fear that any of us are at risk if we have a habit of shoddy thinking. Perhaps we jump to conclusions too quick. Or we may have a habit of forming unsupported opinions - perhaps based on strong emotion about something.

I would say that any of us are just as vulnerable to evil powers as our barking and shaking Charismatic friends. The devil may not tempt us to validate weird phenomena, but he can certainly tempt us to validate unsupported reasoning – and feel very righteous about it. It’s passivity of the mind, all the same. Is that not the devil's playground?

So rather than censor books, it seems better to encourage the development of critical judgement.

Diane

Thanks Diane, for the bit of biograhy on JPL.
I, Do also reall a certain techer saying that once Evan Roberts began living with her, that he was put on the shelf by God, and that the Lord did not work through him mightily any more. Now, that's just what I heard the man say. I can't give you his name, because honestly, I don't remember what preacher either on this site or www.sermonaudio.com said it - being that these 2 sites are the ones where I listen to over 95% of the sermons that I download.
I don't find this to be a fascinating topic anyway, so I'm gonna bow out after quickly sharing a few other things I've heard and read:
I also recall Keith Daniel saying that there was a man who went to those Keswick conventions, and that after Andrew Murray was no longer attending (perhaps because he died), that this man went for 20 yrs afterward, and that since Murray had left, this man said, "it was like going to deadness." I thought, what a statement - a man brings with him the presence of God, and the others bring teaching without the power of the Holy Spirit. Now, I don't know if JPL was teaching herself at those conventions during that 20 yrs, but if so, and they were just teachings with no Fire, then what good is it really? I say that generally, even about today's conventions and teachings.
Now, I find it to be a vast subject indeed when it comes to spirits and such - Is there a spirit of criticism that is fleshly and not of God? I think so. I've seen it, and God knows, I've witnessed it in myself in times past - I must be honest.
Now, I don't want to get off track here, although I think I may be, but through 20 yrs of reading and listening to people's teachings, I have witnessed 2 types - one type "Spirit - annointed", coming through meek and lowly men set ablaze by God; and the other - teachings, although perhaps being good to a certain degree, life-less.
Now, my job here isn't to confuse... What was that quote again by Duncan Campbell who had that dream when revival was breaking out in Scotland at that time? A dream where he seen people gathered around, listening to the gospel, and Duncan decided to make his way through the crowd, and he came to the devil preaching the gospel. Remember what the devil said to him? Something like, "one of my tactics is to preach the gospel without the power of the Holy Spirit"... Or something to that effect... I would even say the case could be applied to writing a book on christianity, or sharing certain things on these forums in a proud spirit to get a point across.
It is indeed, a great subject, this subject on spirits in the "church" and in "believers".

Dear Krautfrau,
I wasn't at all implying that Evan was living with her in an ungodly way, and God forbid any of my statements should be interpretted that a man way more righteous than I was put on the shelf by God because of his "supposed" wickedness. Anyway, I must say this, that upon reading your post this occured to me - that I must admit that in times past, I have heard many suspicions concerning this matter, and much gossip thereof. Now, I have mentioned hear of certain things that I have heard from other preachers... Now, I do feel rebuked, and I do apologize - for because I have heard certain things, that I do discern as negative, I will keep to myself, unless I have witness that the one accusing another has said something spitefully or maliciously against another... Then I will share that reference on this forum whether in a book or sermon, and not by "hear-say"... Besides that, I will keep quiet pertaining to "what I've heard", for indeed such a thing is spreading gossip! God help me, for I hate such sin myself and I repent. I do thankyou for the light you have shed on this Krautfrau.

I see what Jessie Penn Lewis is trying to say, but I think i will try seeking the word and maybe that e.m bounds book.

Bible4Life, This seems like a good plan! You will find EM Bounds to be far more wholesome and edifying.

Maybe it's time for set JPL aside and move on. We get nowhere spinning our tires over this stuff – other than embroiled in irresolvable controversies which has divided God’s people for decades. I suspect that the devil has "accomplished" more through these highly-charged controversies than through her "infamous" book itself– as slanted as it may be. Why fuel that bandwagon!

Diane

I would rather not leave the subject of JPL behind when so much false information and accusations are being made against her.

Krautfrau, You as more virtuous than me! JPL has been labeled as Jezebel, a witch, and much more. That merely exposes the church’s more barbaric side. So it’s not just a case of defending her, but of protecting God’s name. “Hallowed be thy name”.

But I don’t see how you can dialogue effectively on JPL where participants have not studied her work. We just spin wheels and find ourselves forming opposing camps. Because I have expressed some measure of usefulness in JPL’s writings, I am potentially ostracized into her ‘Jezebel' camp. And that merely diminish the credibility of anything else I say. Sometimes I think it’s best to be silent - out of love for one another.

Mind you, I did a quick search for commentaries on JPL. Interestingly, they are written from an eclectic assortment of slants. One I found rather intriguing. According to the author - now that she is dead her works are very good and even men can read them. There is no risk of a dead woman usurping authority.

As for me: JPL once had a place in the past. This morning she has a new place – and that is to observe how people’s existing slants so strongly influence their judgment. Sometimes you can discover more about the commentator than the author being critiqued.

Likewise, God can use our own comments to teach us about ourselves. After all, we have slants of some kind or other – and a few of them may need to rise into our awareness – so we can see that they need revising.

Diane

No need to exagerate what was said on this thread and make matters worse by doing so.

And regarding the word “possession” - I find it a difficult term to pin down. I’m not necessarily sold on the various explanations. To be honest, I don’t understand the physiology of the spirit world. Those who deal with it on a regular basis likely know better. Scripture doesn’t seem to offer a tidy, concise explanation. But it does speak about a real war – and our defense - as in the Spiritual Armor of God.

Indisputably, there were significant holes in this “Armor” during the Welsh revival, and JPL was one who tried to patch the holes. For those of us who are passionately praying for revival, that season in revival history is surely sobering – even as we praise God for the blessings.

May God prepare his people to resist the warring forces of evil.

Diane

It's been interesting to read what others have shared about Jessie Penn Lewis and her book, 'War on the Saints'. I remember hearing about it once in church, and later discovered there were a variety of views on her book, and that there was some controversy surrounding it. I agree that the Bible clearly tells us that Christians can't be possessed by demons, and our focus should always be more on Christ than on Satan, even when the topic is spiritual warfare.

The following is posted, not so much in relation to 'War on the Saints', but to suggest something further to consider in the area of revivals and the manifestations that occur in them. Discernment is needed during revivals, that's for sure and much of what's gone on in recent years in 'revival campaigns' in the forms of hour long fits of laughter, and people barking like dogs, or writhing on the floor like serpents, attests to the need for us to pray for God's wisdom, whenever we encounter something that people claim to be a revival. However, I think discernment is needed on the other side of things as well. By this, I mean that oftentimes if emotions are a part of revival, that is written off as 'emotionalism', and not a true work of God. This can sometimes be the case, but since God has created us with emotions that are are gift from him, we need not think that whenever strong emotions are present ( eg when people are pouring out their hearts to God in praise or petition), then this means that error or excess is necessarily taking place. If this were the case then the man at the beautiful gate who was healed and afterwards went 'leaping and praising God' (Acts 3) should have been portrayed in the Bible as being excessive and out of place in his actions, but there's no indication that he was.

The excerpt below is taken from the pages of the life of Andrew Murray, a very godly man. This is just to illustrate how the final arbitrer on what is of God should be the Word of God, and guidance from the Holy Spirit :

"One Sunday evening, during the youth fellowship meeting, an African servant girl arose and asked permission to sing a verse and pray. The Holy Spirit fell upon the group and she prayed. In the distance, there came a sound like approaching thunder. It surrounded the hall, and the building began to shake. Instantly everyone burst into prayer. The assistant minister knelt at the table.

 Andrew Murray had been speaking in the main sanctuary to the service there. He was notified and came running. Murray called in aloud voice, "I am your minister, sent from God. Silence!"' No one noticed as all continued calling out loudly to God for forgiveness. Murray asked his assistant to sing a hymn, but the praying continued undiminished.

All week long, the prayer meetings were held. Each service began with profound silence. "But as soon as several prayers had arisen the place was shaken as before and the whole company of people engaged in simultaneous petition to the throne of grace." The meetings often continued until 3:00 A.M., and as the people reluctantly dispersed, they went singing their way down the streets.

Services were moved to a larger building because of the crowds. On Saturday, Andrew Murray led the prayer meeting, preaching from the Bible. He prayed and then invited others to do so. Again, the mysterious sound of thunder approached from a distance, coming nearer until it enveloped the building. Everyone broke out in simultaneous prayer.

Murray walked up and down the aisle trying to quiet the people, but a stranger in the service tiptoed up to him and whispered, "Be careful what you do, for it is the Spirit of God that is at work here." Murray learned to accept the revival praying. As many as twenty found the Lord in one service. Mrs. Murray wrote, "We do feel and realize the power and presence of God so mightily.  His Spirit is indeed poured out on us.”

The South African revival then scattered like buckshot and spread to other areas.  One pastor reported something of “the glory of the church in the first century”.  Prayer meetings multiplied.  Many Christians met each week in prayer groups of three to four.  Some churches could not hold all who came to worship.  Spiritual awakening came to places up to two hundred miles away."

May we by God's grace, see such a manifestation of his Glory again.

http://gloryofhiscross.org/revive7.HTM

In Jesus,
John 

Since this is going strong yet, I raise some questions:

I’m unclear about the word “possession”. The term can have a range of meanings and applications. I “possess” a lot of things, material and non-material. Some is within, some without. Not all I “possess” controls me –but some might. Some things which I don’t possess can control me.

Could someone offer a precise definition of “possession”? How does it relate to the spiritual forces of evil in Eph. 6 – and the armour imagery? Also could someone give the precise verse that claims demonic control (if that is part of the definition) to be necessarily outside of the Christian’s experience?

I wouldn’t mind, either, if someone could relate all the above to JPL’s context – ie, the manifestations during revival. She refers to the passive the mind. (Surely we’d have to understand her particular perception of mental passivity, if we are going to be able to grasp her own concept of “possession” - since for her they go together.)

Is there anyone here who has read CS Lewis’s “Screwtape Letters” – and who might be able to offer a helpful comparison? I don’t think he has incurred near so much controversy – yet what he said is pretty shocking for the church-goer?

Diane

Wow live4jc what a powerful testimony. I feel almost I shouldn't comment as that would have been a terrific way to end. Amazing, and I have been ministered to greatly by AM through a few books I own. And to hear that brings it back down to our humanness once again for me no matter who we are.

I came to quote the scripture from Jesus "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me"

All is all and that brings me great comfort.

Also bible4life I too experienced what you stated in the original post. That weirdness. I felt that it came from talking to satan too much in prayer. So much shouting and rebuking but I never saw a deliverance.(?) This probably for 10yrs into my salvation so I left the charismatic church. But still love many ie Wilkerson, Cymbala and more.

I was very curious over the subject due to family history. And I did ask straight on concerning the subject but did not get any answer. I was left w/ the feeling they could pray and rebuke and refer books but up close and personal conversations I sensed they really didn't know either.

so I purchased books but it scared me because I was confused over what I had experienced in church. That Satan being so big thing. So I let it be and drew near to the one that always calmed my fears, Jesus. And put the books far away.

Nobody in my family was into satanism that I know of just certain sad familiar characteristics that seem to be a factor over generations defeating my Jesus believing heritage is what I was gathering thru stories and seeing.

Being a baby christian and having defeat in my own life through character weaknesses I just wondered if....

But I wanted to share what happened one season in my journey when after I heard someone say "could you follow the Lord deeply and be able to worship him truly if you took everything away ie music, spiritual books, newsletters etc... but His word.

Sounded like a good enough challenge for me so I did. The newsletters canceled, the music (uh:(), and books. AND...
Wow, yes you can.

Through much prayer and hard leaning the word came alive like never before. And I gave Him my own songs.

I still feel like a baby christian 27 yrs. now. But that's ok.
I have a childlike faith, the same that brought me to Him. I never want to lose that and believe he doesn't want me to either. For I am his child..and so much more.

To err is human and knowing and experiencing enough of my own and I love my fellow christians and just keep on keepin on w/ Jesus.

But I do have an issue I'm pondering over demonic posession that involves my oldest boy for whom I will be asking prayer on the prayer site .

Only because I recently learned that the word pharmacia in greek means sorcery. According to Chuck Missler.
I haven't verified yet.

But if....You see my son has been doing something (Uh I hate to say that word-drugs) for the better part of 10 yrs now. And I see something I can't explain.

Rebellion yes, but I swear this seems much worse.

Anyway, if my son is not saved, and i don't believe he is, I'm believing on the sound doctrine in which he was brought up in and the power of the blood and much prayer no matter how long it takes to see the Lord set him free. Even from satan and his imps.

So I lean w/ you then as once an unlearned christian and now as a more read one that we have the habit of giving the enemy more power than he deserves when we take our eyes off Jesus. After all He Created satan. And Defeated him on our behalf at calvary.

I won't relinquish that faith, no matter what is presented to me through scripture that only is quoted to discourage me no matter who or how famous a preacher presents it. Or testimony of one great ones loss in or out of the Bible.
For I know I can forsake all ie husband or child. I'm living proof and they know it by now, being actually challenged on this recently by one of my own dear ones.
And if I'm in err well I'll err on the side of FAITH in that He is able.

There is much spiritual abuse through people using scripture and I won't get into my own experiences that almost makes me cry to think of things spoken in the past.

It is enough that Jesus died and that he died for me.

I feel called to encourage and pray and stand in the gap for many I love. I cry because I feel so saved though undeserving and want that for them and believe we have all we need in His Word, Faith and Prayer.

Sorry if i dove off and didn't address in a theological or even on track w/ what your seeking here please forgive then, but I have a Neil Anderson book I picked up 10+ yrs ago and will go to it and still end up just going back to his word alone for my peace.

That's all, God Blessings and peace to all

She writes in chapter 4

"Passivity does not change the nature of a faculty, but it hinders its normal operation. In the case of passivity hindering the memory, the person will be found looking outside himself for every possible "aid to memory," until he becomes a veritable slave to note book, and helps, which fail at a critical moment. With this is also passivity of the imagination, which places the imagination outside personal control, and at the mercy of evil spirits who flash to it what they please. One danger is to take these visions, and call them "imaginations." The passive state can be produced without crystal gazing,note 4 i.e., if a person gazes at any object for a prolonged period the natural vision is dulled, and the deceiving spirits can then present anything to the mind."

Don't you see for yourselves what outrageous claims she makes?
Granted, passivity in not good for Christian and there is no excuse for it, but does it open me up for demon possession?
Would the Holy Ghost cohabit with a demon in a Christians body?
Do I have to get into frenzy activity to avoid becoming demon possessed?
To I get demon possessed by prolonged gazing at my notebook display?

Sorry Jessie, you went too far. I find no scriptural base for this. Sad that she had so much influence on Watchman Nee and Evan Roberts.

The Biographer of Jessie Penn-Lewis said about the controversy of the word 'possession',

"the teachers of pastoral theology and counseling were horrified by the Jessie Penn-Lewis/Evan Roberts thesis that men and women born of the Spirit could be ‘possessed’ by the devil. Readers had not noticed Jessie’s broad and too loose definition of the word ‘possessed’ as meaning, ‘any hold which evil spirits have in or upon a person in any degree.’ What Jessie and Evan meant to warn against should be called ‘harassment’ or ‘oppression´."

As far as I understand the subject, the NT is not explicit about it but its not either denying it but we have instances where we are warned about the danger of giving any hold or ground to the enemy.

In IICorinthians 11, Paul talks about false apostles and they were preaching another gosple and " another jesus" and corinthians were in danger of receiving another (counterfeit) spirit and don't be mistaken it was not the Holy Spirit "inspiring" these teachers but some other spirit(s). He makes this rather revealing statement inII Corinthians 11:3-4:

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtility, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."

The question is, is it possible for a christian who is not walking in the Spirit but in the flesh to be deceived temporarily by another spirit? Is it possible for a backslider to open the door to another spirit in his heart through unconfessed known sins or disobidience to the word of God?

We are in a spiritual war and we know that the Spirit of God is stronger than the spirit of this world and that there is nothing that can seperate us from the love of God, as long as we are faithful and obey Him. A christian who believes and obeys Jesus and follows Him is an overcomer. The devil can harras him, attack him, fight him but He will not be able to overcome him, because he has victory by the word of his testimony of Jesus and by the power of His blood shed on the cross.

I'm not talking about victorious christians or a spiritual christian filled with the Spirit, who walks in the light of God. The question is for backsliders or carnal christians, can they be deceived by the enemy? If so, to what extent? Paul warned Ephesians to, "neither give place to the devil." Ephesians 4:27

Let me give an example, we know that there are christians who go through spiritual depression. Did not the devil through sin to some extent got hold of their hearts or minds and made them passive in their will and christian life.

Paul said to "put on the whole armor of God that we may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil" (Ephesians 6:11) We should know the enemy tactics and not be ignorant. Four times in Ephesians 6:12 Paul mentions the word 'withstand':

"For our wrestling is not against the flesh and blood, but against principalities , against powers, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wicketness in the heavenlie places" (Ephesians 6:12)

The letter to Ephesians is devided in three parts and their is a devine order there, as someone put it:

"The wealth of a Christian
The walk of the Christian
The warfare of a Christian"

Before a christian goes to a spiritual war, he should know the spiritual wealth that belongs to him and the power provided for Him in Jesus Christ. He needs to experience Holy Spirit power and to walk in the light of God. Then he will be ready for the battles ahead of him and come out victorious as he stays faithful doing the will of God.

But what happens to those who dont put on the whole armor of God? Paul told them to "put on", there is an act of the will involved here and as there is an act of the will involved when he said to them to "be filled with the Holy Spirit".

We should be aware of the wiles, tactics, the devices of the devil. What happend when a christian does not withstand? How many of christians have been spiritually depressed? How many have have gone through mind delusion? Christians suffering from heart distraction? or passivity of the will?

Have we not justified maybe unintentionally a theology of inward sin in our lives? I dont believe in sinless perfection but I believe the bible when it talks about holiness and sanctification and in the possibility to be wholly sanctified. As Paul said, " May the God of peace sanctify you completly, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the comming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (IThessalonians 5:23)

Many christians accept as "normal" the cohabitation of sin and the Holy Spirit at the same time in their hearts. Is not inward sin antagonist to the Spirit of Holiness, sure it is. How can it be possible then, to have the Holy Spirit in our spirit and inward sin in our hearts? When sin in the heart remains unconfessed, we grieve or quench the Spirit.

Using the same logic of unconfessed sin dwelling in the heart of a carnal christian(sin is antagonist to the Holy Spirit), is it not possible for an evil spirit to infiltrate through an open door the heart of a deceived christian? We can ask, how is that possible? When we have the Holy Spirit in our spirits. We find it logical for sin entering the heart of a believer but illogical or impossible for an evil spirit entering the heart of a backsliding christian. Are backsliding christians immune from the infiltration of a deceptive spirits in their hearts or minds? I dont think so.

But thanks God we have the shield of faith to protect our hearts, the breasplate of righteouness to protect our minds and the sword of the Spirit to attact our enemy. We have our defence and offence weapons in our disposal. We know that Jesus already defeated our foe on the cross and as He had victory, so can we.

- I had to edited and correct my post

Thank you Jesus-is-God, for answering my questions. I admit, I have not put “possession” down quite that specifically.

What Jessie and Evan meant to warn against should be called ‘harassment’ or ‘oppression´."

This makes sense - even as I browse through my unabridged version. Our troubles may be loose word usage. Note how she uses the word “possess” in this statement: “Devotion singing, preaching, worship – all good things – may so POSSESS the mind as to close it to all personal knowledge of the need of deliverance form Adversary’s deception.” Pg 186 I interpret that to mean: even the good things can preoccupy our minds so much that they mask our underlying sin problem = deception. So “possess” could mean: occupy our mind.

Under “Acknowledge the Truth”, her first point is this: “I believe that it is possible for a Christian to be deceived and oppressed by evil spirits.” pg 190. So here she gets it “right”.

No doubt in the revival crowds there was a mixture of deception, oppression, possession, or whatever – maybe some mass hysteria. And in the bedlam it would be rather hard to make distinctions.

We can probably all agree with JPL that where God is working, we can expect demonic activity. That happened in Jesus’ day too. Some of us will have experienced it in meetings. I have!

BWT, I think the issue with JPL’s book is far less a problem of heresy than that today the masses are accustomed to bite-sized quantities of information. Most simply do not that the endurance for this book even to convince them to THINK and use their minds more carefully. And that makes them vulnerable for so many deceptions to “possess” their minds.

We'd do best to trust God to open the eyes of the blind, unstop deaf ears, and awaken dulled minds. Isn’t that the blessed promise of the New Covenant!

Diane

I just want to be better and fully committed to the Lord.

Diane

Dear John,

I believe that 2012 can be a year when God can accomplish within your heart many of the things that you've been yearning for. There's been some good advice given to you on this thread by a number of brothers and sisters in Christ. I'm glad to see that you have been encouraged some, and would encourage you to 'press on' to all that God has for you in your life this year. There are many here who are rooting for you, and who are wanting to rejoice in the Lord with you, as we see Him accomplish the victory for you, which has already been purchased for you, by Calvary's blood.

There's one thing I had been thinking of sharing about on the thread that's about the 'fear of God' earlier, that may relate to some of what you are going through, and some of what you are wanting to see happen in your life. This is an area God's been working on in my own life. It's this : If we sense God speaking to us about something, an area of sin in our life, an area where we need to change, then it's important that we respond immediately to the voice of the Holy Spirit in that area, and to make the changes that he's asking us to make. I believe that as you, as all of us, do this more and more throughout 2012, we will experience the personal revival, that is a part of the large scale revival that we all yearn for. This is an area where the fear of God was evident in the lives of men and women of God who've been used of God over the years. The people God used and the people who came to know Him in a great intimacy in their lives, walked before Him with a sense of carefulness. They were diligent to listen to his voice,and were concerned, lest in not heeding the voice of his Spirit they would miss what He was saying to them at any time, and what he had for them.

So please be encouraged, as others have written in many threads to 'look to Christ', brother. All that we have and all that we can obtain in our lives is found in Him; in his righteousness and in the work He has accomplished for us on the cross.

There is a real spiritual warfare, brother, that we are all engaged in. But the victory in this war is won, not by focussing on the powers of demons and the need to be delivered from them. To what extent they are operating or have operated in our lives in the past, is not as important as how and mostly on 'who' will bring about victory in our lives in the present. As others have encouraged you to do, I'd encourage you to make the Bible your main warfare manual.

Aside from this, if you find Christian books which help you to focus on Christ and his work on the cross as the means to overcome Satan, then some of these may be an additional help, if they help to unfold the truths already presented in the Word of God. Brother Paul has shared some valuable truths recently, in the area of spiritual warfare. As well, one book that I've found to be helpful and I know others have as well on this site is 'A Christian in Complete Armour' by William Gurnall. (eg abridged version done with the help of David Wilkerson/Banner of Trust) This book presents Christian warfare as a reality and a necessity in the life of a Christian, which it is, but in a way that maintains the focus on Christ. Please know that by recommending this book, I am not putting down other Christian resources on this subject, but am just recommending one that I personally have found to be helpful.

These are just a few thoughts and the most important thing is to gain the 'mind of Christ' on this matter... as you continue to bathe yourself in the Word of God, fellowship with other Christians, and in prayer.

"Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.."

Jude 1:24

Much love in Christ to you dear brother,
John

bible4life wrote:
To be honest with you I always get this presence or feeling when it comes to going to a apostolic church or i guess you call a pentecostal church, it doesn't seem right to me for some reason.

John, I believe you can be a Christian and be demonized. I believe in casting out evil spirits out of Christians!

God bless you, I hope you can find someone who has faith to help you and you let them,
Lisa

I am not going to argue (I will carry on a conversation), with anyone about my opinion but be it known that I believe that a Christian can be demonized, not possessed. I think the reason people have so much trouble with the word “possessed” is that it implies “ownership” and we all know that if you have Jesus as your Lord you cannot be possessed by the devil.

Demonized is a much better word to use. What I don’t understand is why people are so invested that a Christian cannot be demonized?! I say that because the Scripture is clear about how healing the sick and casting out demons were INTERTWINED in Jesus’ ministry. Paul even said, “Follow me as I follow Christ.” let's quit arguing and just follow Christ and do as He did!!

God bless,
Lisa

the reason people have so much trouble with the word “possessed” is that it implies “ownership”

Definition of “Ownership": the state or fact of exclusive rights and control over property, which may be an object, land/real estate or intellectual property.”
1. the state or fact of being an owner 2. legal right of possession; proprietorship

This comes from Wikipedia and Dictionary.com. But Greek students would tell us that we NEVER use a modern dictionary to define a word from the Greek! And we're not going to get much help from Greek lexicon because there isn't a specific Greek word for "possessed" - in these verses about demons.

Here's my suggestion:

Since the word “possessed” is not in the Bible, why not abandon our need to define it!
The Greek provides us two other options. One is the verb that looks almost exactly like the word “demonized”.

The other is simply the verb “to have” – like in these two examples:

Mark 3: 22 “Jesus [had] Beelzebub”
(the verb for “TO HAVE” is translated in English as, “is possessed by”

Luke 8:27 “… a certain man which HAD devils” (KJV) Other translations use the word “possessed”

Why not simply used the word: “has”? That should cover it all – including the situations you and I could never even imagine – because, let’s admit, none of us are qualified demonologists! Nor have we seen all that the demonic world does! Right?

I suspect my suggestion will make everybody happy, especially Lisa, who said:

be it known that I believe that a Christian can be demonized, not possessed.

What do you think?
Diane

A bit more info on the word: daimonizomai from NET Bible

Definition:\t1) to be under the power of a demon.

In the NT, these are persons, afflicted with especially severe diseases, either bodily or mentally, (such as paralysis, blindness, deafness, loss of speech, epilepsy, melancholy, insanity, etc.)whose bodies in the opinion of the Jews demons had entered, and so held possession of them as not only to afflict them with ills, but also to dethrone the reason and take its place themselves;
accordingly the possessed were wont to express the mind and
consciousness of the demons dwelling in them; and their cure was thought to require the expulsion of the demon.

Here is an example from Scripture of the possibility of being deceived by a false apsotle who preaches another gosple.

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtility, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." IICor 11:3-4

There is a contrast here between "another jesus" that these false apostles preached and the Jesus that Paul preached. After they believed the gosple that Paul shared, the corinthian believers received the Holy Spirit. But now these deceitful workmen were preaching "another gosple" and as a result of that the corinthians were in danger of receiving "another spirit", which they had not received when they believed Jesus Christ that Paul preached to them.

Paul called these men ministering at corinth, false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. He said that "no wonder even, Satan disguise himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness."

Can someone make the connection here with what is going on today in many evangelical or chrismatic movements. How many times I remember, when I was a young christian, I had to be careful when people laid hands on me. Most of the time I felt a strage fire and the only way to fight it was by the fire of the Holy Ghost. It never happend to me to fall down or lay down in a state of half conscienceness under the socalled "power of the spirit". I was an honest believer, regenerated and sanctified, I wanted the Lord's blessings too but I realized and spiritually sensed that there was something wrong in the atmosphere.

I was testing the spirits and they were not the same as the one I had received when i was born again. think about how many sincere christians have been deceived by the counterfeit gifts of the Spirit and counterfeit fires. Thinking it is the Holy Spirit when in fact it was "another spirit" from the botomless pit.

I believe that there is a danger of receiving "spirits" through the laying on of hands from false ministers who are like clouds without rain and fruitless in their ministry. This is a reality, the trasmission of false spirits through the laying on of hands and those like me who have a background in the charmismatic movement know what I'm talking about.

... I believe that there is a danger of receiving "spirits" through the laying on of hands from false ministers who are like clouds without rain and fruitless in their ministry. ...

Elected, I will try to address your post. Perhaps it will be helpful for me to share some related experiences:

One day a friend asked me to go with her to a special charismatic meeting. It was a new adventure for both of us. I could see that the speaker was biblical. He also had a good measure of control. But during the ministry time people went haywire. You know what I mean. They performed all kinds of strange behaviours to conjure up spirits. (assuming to be the Holy Spirit) For three days after that event I found myself overwhelmed by a powerful sense of euphoria. It was a weird “happiness”. This “delightful” presence began to alarm me when I realized that I could not engage in prayer and bible study as usual. It was like wanting to drive a car, but being unable to shift out of neutral. That’s how I realized that I had absorbed a malevolent spirit at the meeting. Once I recognized it, it was exposed, and I could cast it out easily. And then I was back to normal. My mind could function again. That’s when I realized that those who rely on sensual experience as a gage, would welcome such a presence, and not expel it. And that’s a downhill slide!

I have also experienced overpowering condemnation and guilt after church meetings (one was a prayer meeting). In each of those cases, it took me three days to see that this was not MY stuff. So repentance was not the cure. Expulsion was. And each time, that’s when I could trace it back to the source. (All that without anyone laying hands on me!)

I do not understand the spirit world, but I know it’s real, and it can be quite active in a spiritually charged environment – like a church event. Believers can indeed be affected – not always because they have some buried sin, but because they are truly serving God. For me perhaps I was not well-seasoned in the Spirit-filled life. God was perhaps using those experiences to strengthen my resistance and my awareness.

Oh yes, there can be an obsession about demons under every pew, and yes demons get blamed for what actually has a sin root. Likewise, every conscientious Christian wants to lean on God’s Spirit. But there are masquerading spirits ready to step to the plate. And it is possible to quench God’s Spirit even while unwittingly surrendering to the masquerading spirits (whatever that may look like). That happens during revivals! And that’s how God’s Spirit gets quenched.

It may be that those who opposed JPL, justifiably or not, were also quenching God’s Spirit! And they may have been part of the very problem that disturbed them - by accepting deceptions planted by the enemy.

Having said all that, you and I know that we need not fear the enemy! We can be assured in God’s ability to teach us and strengthen our Christian walk – through trials and testings, and through his Spirit and Truth.

Diane

Dear sister Lisa,

You are right that we should carry on this discussion with a focus on helping John, and doing so in a way that preserves the unity of Christ. May God enable us to do so in love on this forum, not debating one another. Please forgive me for any times I have come across this way. I do believe we all want God's best for John. Let's continue to pray that God will bless him :) In His wisdom, He knows what's best for him and each one of us, and His wisdom far surpasses my wisdom.

In Christ's love,

John

Thank you Jesus-is-God for offering your reflections. I admit, I am not particularly adept at differentiating the elements of the dark forces – whether they be spirits, demons, forces, - and where they locate. On the other hand, it has been vital that I learn to distinguish what’s of God and what’s not - what is Holy Spirit Conviction and what is Satan’s accusation. The remedy for each is vastly different.

And by "touch" that's a limited power granted the enemy.

To say that anyone finding faults in JPL's book are "quenching His Spirit and have deceptions planted by the enemy" is going a bit far.

It may be that those who opposed JPL, justifiably or not, were also quenching God’s Spirit!

Regarding the influence of authors and preachers in my life: The purpose God has had for them has not necessarily related to the grade he’d assign them. God has an amazing way of using flawed people – even to bring Spirit conviction. It’s been a matter of submitting to God and his means. A preacher once gave this caution: If we claim that God and the Bible are enough we are merely depending on our own interpretations and asserting our own autonomous rule. The heart is amazingly deceptive, we were reminded. I find that caution liberating – from myself, I guess.

The LORD will not co-habit with devils.

Blessings to you Jesus-is-God! This has been quite a journey – wrestling through this subject. Little could Bible4life have suspected!

Diane

I wish I could trace it back, so I could word it better. Actually, I've heard the idea a few times. The word "lone ranger" is typically used. I've tended to balk at this idea, being a bit of a "lone ranger" type myself. But, then I can accept the possibility of a superficial piety - masking autonomous pride.

Diane

I'm concerned with the terminology, Diane, of that you felt the need to use these terms, "expel", "expulsion", and "cast it out".

If only we as true Saints realized that no enemy can touch us without His permission and His will. And by "touch" that's a limited power granted the enemy.

Matt 1:23 says that in THEIR synagogue there was a man with an unclean spirit. So while Jesus was in church there was a man with an unclean spirit. I have not read anywhere where Jesus made the man get saved before he cast a demon out of him. Have you? WE NEED TO REMEMBER THAT JESUS DID NOT DEAL WITH THE MAN; HE DEALT WITH THE SPIRIT IN THE MAN. (v32-34) Jesus never told those He cast demons out of that they had to be ‘saved,” that is nowhere in Scripture. No, He just took authority over them and healed and cast out!!

Christian’s CAN BE DEMONIZED; in all types of depression, fear, pride, jealousy, addictions, explosive anger, etc, Demons entice, harass, torment, compel, enslave, defile, deceive and weaken the Christian. It’s a crying shame that Christians who are being demonized can’t find help IN THE CHURCH b/c the church or people in the church are telling them they can’t possibly be demonized, that they’ve got to get ‘born again’ instead of just doing the Lord's work and casting out the demon(s).

I know you are not going to agree with me in any shape or form and I’m a-ok with that, I hope we can stay friends! Christians are literally standing in line for help, so in Jesus' name, I will keep doing what the Holy Spirit is leading me to do... casting demons out of Christians!

God bless you, Jesus-is-God,
Lisa

*All caps were for emphasis and not meant to be perceived as yelling.

I'm sorry that I don't agree with the teaching of men on this issue. I was "into" Derek Prince and those who teach that Christians have demons that need to be "cast out" the first 4 yrs that I was saved .... but I Thank GOD for some Pentecostal Missionaries that taught me from The Word alone

I love the word of God and I hope you know that, but can you explain how Christians followed Christ for 1400 years before they actually had the Word alone to follow?

Many of those who go through these 'deliverances' find that they need to keep going back for more because they're believing a lie in the first place by giving Satan more power over Christians than what he truly has and they begin to blame so much of what they experience on demons and back they are, asking to be 'delivered' again and again.

God bless you...
Lisa

He will not accept if we say that we acquired our false beliefs from some Pastor or teacher or anyone else on earth.

I think that most conservative Christians claim to trust only in God and the Word. But even if they are guarded about preachers and authors, that doesn't exclude the fact that may be trusting their own interpretations of the Bible.

That's where I was going. Does that clear up my foggy talk?

blessings,
Diane

Quote: """Demons "enslaving" Christians? How could that be unless the 'christian' is backslidden?"""

What is a backslidden christian? Not Heb 6, that is a conformation of those in Christ that cannot fall away, for if they could it would be impossible to renew them to repentance, which only God can give, "impossible" which is not for the Body of Christ, His Church. "We are persuaded of better things of you." Those that are in Christ and Christ in us. Can we be unbirthed?

Either we are a Christian or we are not. If I am blaming Demons for my sin, It is because of mans religion. If Christ is birthed in the believer how can darkness live in the Light. We must enter God's rest, and believe, His Faith in us is our rest, If we don't have rest, we are depending on our works of faith to make us right before God and anyone blameing Demons is deceiving himself. Any Demon can never make us sin, we might be tempted but the choice to sin is ours and ours alone. "Carried away by our own lust", If we maintain our knowledge of the Christ that is in us and believe He is the only one who can set us free, the things of earth will grow strangely dim.

Read tuc's letter in "scripture and doctrine" thread on true repentance of Hudson's taylor's letter to His sister, first post on repentance thread.

It is our unbelief that keeps us in tourment, not Demons or Demon posession, which is impossible for a Christ Person, Jesus defeated Him completely for His body the Church of whom He is the Head. Presenting to Himself a chaste and perfect, no spot or wrikle to Himself, His Bride, the Body of Christ, His Church of whom we are One in Him.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi Phillip, Unbirthed is not the correct term as Paul talks about a person who is now the enemy of the gospel and he says it with tears. we can be dead to the truth but Gods grace will continue to call us back to be resurrected.

Derek Prince was a lovely old english man who had a particular view of the end but also had a ministry in deliverance.

I support his ministry but first I must say that there is much that I agree with you on. Nothing can take us out of the hand of God however we never loose our free will to rebel until possibley there is a time when we hand over our will. My experience is that Christians can open a door to oppression and possession through deliberate rebellion to Gods known will, be it known or a deliberate ignoring of the conscience. If this is a consistant life style then possession is highly possible. Trust me please on this.

Having tasted of the heavenly gift, I do no believe this is salvation. As you mention the bride of Christ is without spot nor wrinkle could this be a differnt state to salvation. In Rev 12 we see a woman clothed with the sun who later gives birth to a child after her marriage. Then the antichrist having failed, and yes it is the dragon not the antichrist per se, however after the woman goes into the wilderness, the antichrist turns on and kills all those who still hold to the testimony of Christ.

Could it be those that taste of the heavenly gift are of the woman company? I have known men who were definitely saved and spoke in tongues who later fell. One of which ran hard drugs for a time and was armed. My experience says that christians can definitely rebel. I have known of a man that after being totaly backsliden for 10 years,that after being out with the hells angels the night before had the option of doing a robbery to get cash for drugs or as it was Sunday morning going to church to see if the Bride of Christ was starting to form.

Forgive my doctinal difference on this issue however he destinctly heard "My grace is suffient for thee" after twice telling the Lord he was only there to take the temprature of the church - sanctification, he then said "yes I know your grace is sufficient for me". At that point those words entered his heart with the belief that God would take that rotten scoundrel just the way he was to rework him like the potter with the clay.

I know this is a true story because that rotten scoundrel was me. That was thirty odd years ago.

Your point about blaming demons is a really good one as we want to blame others until we become culpable or honest about ourselves. This does not preclude opening our lives through dissobedience to demonic torment. I stress this as there is a version of Christianity that refuses that the devil exists, that hell exists etc.

I do understand the view point that you support however Presilla and Aquilla came to a man that was known to be mighty in the scripture - Apolus. They shared the word with him and brought a greater depth to his understanding.

From my experience in God I hope I have brought some additional understanding. By the way you have something special in understanding of Gods rest may I encourage you to continue to study it as there is great revelation there.

Kindest regards Oskar

My intention with word unbirthed; 1 Peter 1:23-25 Being born again , not of corruptible seed , but of incorruptible , by the word (((((the Christ of God))))) of God , which liveth and abideth for ever . For all flesh is as grass , and all the glory of man as the flower of grass . The grass withereth , and the flower thereof falleth away : But the word (((((written or preached word))))) of the Lord endureth for ever . And this is the word (((((written or preached))))) which by the gospel is preached unto you . (-) added by me.

If I have the incorruptable Seed of the Father Jesus Christ born again in me, which Jesus says "we must be" or we cannot even enter or see the things of the KIngdom of God. With Christ in me there is only One that could allow me to be posessed, God the Father who's Seed is in me by being rebirthed with the incorruptable Seed, Jesus Christ, the living Word Himself now my life, "It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me, the life I now live I live by the faith of the Son of God who gave Himself for me.

Unbirthed or aborted if you will; Christ would have to be taken out of me, making God an abortionist, which we know He could never be. Satan cannot dwell where Christ is, we see that in scripture, He has to flee. So if Christ is in me and He will complete the finish the work He has begun in me and He will never leave me, How could satan ocupy the same Spirit or Soul? The Spirit in me is Christ the Holy Spirit in my soul is giving the Spirit of Christ in me the power and understanding that we are son's of God by birthing and as He is in this world so are we. Free will; "why did you make me this way", Potter and clay, one for glory and one not for glory. I won't put God in a box like religion of man does. He is in me and He won't leave until His work is done. I cannot be an abortion statistic of God our Father.

Thank you for the chance to explain what I believe the Holy Spirit has revealed to me as to Paul, which is Christ in me, Christ in you and us in Him. Which Paul speaks of 146 times in his gospel. John also; John 15:4-6 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

John 14:18-20 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

No unbirthing.

"In Christ": Phillip

Roadsign:

"I never thought about this word “touch”. And at the moment no scriptural example comes to mind. I surely have experienced a heavy “touch”. At any rate, I learned that it is possible to be nearly capsized by malevolent forces working within – not just in the external peripheries. And it may not be a sin issue at all. (I admit, bidding this riddance worked remarkably.) And specific wording here is not near as important as simply exercising spiritual authority in Christ."

Just wanted to share my thoughts on this subject as I understand it.

In James 4:7 We are told to submit to God resist the devil and he will flee from us. This resistance is active and verbal if necessary but for it to be effective we need to submit first to God and then we will have the authority as believers to resist. Our minds and hearts are the target of his fiery darts and we have the spiritual defensive weapons to protect us from the attacts. We have the sword of the Spirit and praying in the Spirit.

Our true identity as believers is saints and God calls us his children if we really have His Spirit indwelling us. Believers are seated in the heavenly places in Christ. By faith and through a living union with Him we can claim our authority as believers over the powers of darkness.

It is the business of the devil to harass and oppress when ever he can and inject those bad thoughts in our minds if he can. Some sincere christians in their ignorance are not informed of the strategies, tactics, positions of satan and evil spirits against believers. How many believers have not been vigilant or spiritually alert and somehow had to suffer severe spiritual depression or mental breakdown. And the origine of it was not just natural but the work of the enemy. And pastors sometime dont know how to deal with such situations, having no spiritual discerment. Maybe they will just recommend councelling but unfortunatly not all christian counselors are experienced in deliverance ministry.

When I was a young believer I learned how to discern the voice of my Shepherd from that of the counterfeit shepherd. I have experienced or sensed inside of me counterfeit spirit or wild fire and I had to learn my lessons the hard way. It was only by the grace of God the I leaned to discern and resist those strange spirits.

I dont agree with everything that JPL says, her theology is not without errors. As they say, "it the fish and spit out the bones" but a book like hers has some very valuable prophetic insights about spiritual warfare in these last days before the secong comming of our Lord.

Cencorship from many publishing houses for a book like "War on the Saints", I think is an indicator of how much the enemy tries to keep the saints ignorant on a subject like spiritual warfare. Someone like Evan Robert we consider him as a great man of God, but we dont want to learn from the experiences of prayer worriors like him or JPL. Who had a firsthand experience in one of the greatest revivals of 20th centery. It is my conviction that JPL broke out new light from the word of God on that subject of warfare.

- Edited

Here we are on page 10 and no one yet has produced a scripture verse that explicitly says demons cannot invade believers, or that the Spirit’s presence in a believer makes that impossible. That is read into the text, and is supported by sense reasoning: It just doesn’t make sense. So we are not arguing over the violation of scripture as much as over presuppositions coupled with our own experiences. And that inevitably produces an irresolvable divide.

Surely JPL cannot be judged according to an assertion that is imposed onto scripture by human reasoning. She can of course be critiqued in various ways, but not by her use of the word “possessed”. She cannot be judged guilty for violating a scriptural interpretation – that is poorly supported, or by a word that has a wide range of meaning. It is unfair to judge her according to “straw man” arguments.

Let’s admit, scripture does not cover the entire scope of demonic activity. We just try to fill in the gaps – some accurate, and some not so accurate. Maybe we don't need to know exactly the workings of a demon - as we don't need to know the molecular structure of our red blood cells to know that liver is good for us.

Deliverance ministries abound – obviously because there is a felt need for this, as has been pointed out. The validity of these ministries cannot be judged fairly without actually spending time in many of them – and inspecting the fruit. That takes a lot of time and investigation. If that is not possible – then it is nobler to plead ignorance than to condemn it based on a shaky biblical interpretation. It’s what we would wish of non-Christians who condemn the church as nothing but flakiness and fighting over pet doctrines. They can say that only because they stand at a distance and never check it out further.

dont know how to deal with such situations,

ignorant on a subject

Elected, Yes, when it comes to work of the devil, ignorance is NOT bliss. But while believers across history divide over what the devil can and cannot do, the devil merrily perpetuates his war on the saints. Meanwhile countless numbers of God’s people suffer – as the call to Christian submission is abandoned.

When it comes to the war on the Saints, we have a victor in Christ .... and that is the point, isn't it! Isn't that the point JPL was trying to make?!

Diane

Here we are on page 10 and no one yet has produced a scripture verse that explicitly says demons cannot invade believers, or that the Spirit’s presence in a believer makes that impossible. That is read into the text, and is supported by sense reasoning: It just doesn’t make sense. So we are not arguing over the violation of scripture as much as over presuppositions coupled with our own experiences. And that inevitably produces an irresolvable divide.

Hi Diane...

Here we are on page 10 and no one yet has produced a scripture verse that explicitly says demons cannot invade believers, or that the Spirit’s presence in a believer makes that impossible.

Similarly, the opposite can also be asked.

Are there ANY examples in Scripture where the person of a born-again believer was "invaded" by demons? Is there any example in Scripture where a believer's body was "shared" by both the Holy Spirit and demons?

According to Scripture, my body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit. I do not believe that the Holy Spirit will "share" this Temple with Satan or any of his minions.

Since there just aren't any real examples of believers in the Scripture being possessed by demons, then the discussion is speculative at best. The burden of "proof" (I Thessalonians 5:21) thus remains with those who say that it can happen -- since the notion is certainly far from obvious in the Scriptures and appears (at least to me) to be "extra-biblical."

I hope that this makes sense.

Hi John,

I just bought a book by jessie penn Lewis called War on the Saints and i know their was a post already locked on this site about it, so i am not trying to bring up anything at all to cause confusion. But, as i have read the book i have sensed a very strange presence you can say or feeling that i am very unsure about, as i read the book their does seem to be some truth in it, but it seems to make me feel demons have so much power when I know God is sovereign and in complete control of a believers life. To be honest with you I always get this presence or feeling when it comes to going to a apostolic church or i guess you call a pentecostal church, it doesn't seem right to me for some reason. But, anyways i really am unsure if i should continue to read this book, anyone can give me some wisdom on this at all.

I haven't read this book, so I can't really say anything about it. However, as a teenager, I read a possibly similar book from Chick Publications entitled HE CAME TO SET THE CAPTIVES FREE.

I found the book at a consignment (second hand) store that sold used clothes, books, etc... I had seen advertisements for the book in Chick publications (*and even tracts), so I was happy to pay 50 cents for it. I began reading it that same day.

In the book, "Dr. Rebecca Brown" spoke about how she was a medical doctor who was having experiences with satanism, and demonic experiences. It was a wild book (to say the least). There were passages about demon possession (including of saints), out-of-body home invasions, and even claims of a woman having sex with Satan. There were even tales of demonic werewolves.

Even as a young teen, I decided that this woman was either telling the truth or lying -- and that there could be no middle ground.

When I was about halfway through the book, I had a dream. In my dream, I was standing in our church standing while everyone else stood and sang worship songs. I noticed a large dark figure enter the congregation from the back door. It was a large demon. I was shocked that no one was doing anything about it...and many didn't even notice it.

So, I jumped into the aisle. I pointed at this large, grotesque demon and told it, "By the Name of Jesus, you must flee! You must depart this place!" Instead of leaving, this demon threw his head back and howled in demonic laughter. "You can't do that...because that doesn't work anymore." After a short yet startling "conversation," I woke up in a cold sweat. IMMEDIATELY, I looked beside my bed and noticed the book. As soon as I looked at it, I felt the Lord strongly impress me to stop reading it.

I placed it in our bookshelf downstairs and simply pondered what it all meant.

About six months later, my pastor and his family were visiting our home. The pastor's daughter saw the book on the shelf and asked if she could borrow it. I warned her to be "careful" with it, but she said that she had wanted to read it for a while. I was interested in what someone else would think of the book, so I acquiesced. She borrowed it and I completely forgot about it for a while.

Several months later (and after a church meeting), my pastor's daughter mentioned that she needed to get the book back to me. I told her that I had forgotten about it, but she said that she had read it and enjoyed it and that her mom decided to read it.

A few weeks later, I went over to the pastor's house and I asked them about it. I asked the pastor's wife what she thought about it. She told me, "You know, I never finished it. It was the strangest thing, but I had a weird dream when I was half-way through the book." She went on to describe the very same dream that I had! The big demon in that dream told her the same thing about the Name of Jesus no longer having power. She woke up and strongly felt that she needed to put down the book.

I explained that I had experienced the same dream and then apologized for having let their daughter borrow the book.

Several years later, I was online and happened to find a reference to the book. Interested, I decided to look up information about it. What I found was very troubling. "Dr. Rebecca Brown" had a very "interesting" history. Without going into details, I would just like to say that her character might not be "impeccable." Her medical license had been revoked by the state and she had been caught in a long series of lies. Her name isn't even "Rebecca Brown" although she still refers to herself by it. Needless to say, this information became more readily accessible via the advent of the internet.

Why am I saying this?

I would urge extreme caution when you approach the topic of demonology and the claims presented by others. I haven't read the book that you mentioned; however, I strongly feel that I was encouraged by the Lord to avoid the book by "Rebecca Brown." The claims could not be proven by Scripture, but the defense given for her claims was always to burden others to "prove them wrong."

There are many books out there about the supernatural. There are books where people claim to have visited Heaven, visited Hell, and plenty of books about angels and demons. One thing that I noted about the books about visits to Heaven and Hell are that they seldom agree with one another on the specifics. Sure, the obvious portions that are plain in Scripture are included in most of them. However, the specificities are so unique in each conflicting account that either all of them are false, or one of them is true.

Most importantly, I think that we should not be focused on such things. I believe that we should maintain proper focus on Christ whenever we approach such things through prayer and careful "testing" of everything that we read or hear by the ONLY good standard -- the purity of the Word of God!

I will be praying for you, John.

Chris wrote :

"I will be praying for you, John."

I like how the focus is on how we can help John, here. What if we set aside a certain day to pray for him, and then see what the Lord will do, through this concerted prayer for him?

The sermon link below is a link to Jim Cymbala's sermon, "My House shall be called a house of prayer'.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/myvideo/photo.php?lid=826

In this sermon he talks about how his daughter had gone away from the Lord. He doesn't talk about specifics but likely she had gotten involved in some things that she shouldn't have. In a real sense she was in need of 'deliverance' and this happened as people in the church banded together and prayed for her to be set free. As Jim relates this story, during the time of prayer people are even engaged in 'warfare praying', but I think the important thing is that they are praying together, just as they did in Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost.

Wouldn't it be wonderful to see this happen, as we pray for John? I believe that it could, praise God :)

In Jesus,
John

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Since there just aren't any real examples of believers in the Scripture being possessed by demons, then the discussion is speculative at best.

God bless,
Lisa

Hi Lysa,

Actually, I do not think that is true. The Scriptures themselves are proof because Jesus didn’t go to the Gentiles to cast out demons, he didn’t minister at all to the Gentiles (did he?); he went to “his own,” the Jews, and they were the only children of God at the time.

Are you assuming that all of the ethnic Jews were "saved" simply because they were ethnic Jews?

To consider ethnic Jews as "believers" based solely upon their ancestry is failing to remember all of the Jews who died in the wilderness in sin and unbelief...or Kings of Israel who died in their sins...or the fact that Jews were being "baptized unto repentance" by John even BEFORE Jesus was baptized.

Yes, Jesus came to His own...but His own received Him NOT. And, of course, "the Son of Man came to seek and to save that which was LOST." Yes, the seed of Abraham was chosen by God. However, they need Jesus as much as any Gentile.

Still, I cannot find a single anecdote in Scripture of BELIEVERS who are "demon possessed." The Scriptural burden of proof isn't with those who have not found passages to support the notion, but with those who claim that the Scriptures support the idea that true believers can be demon possessed in the first place.

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Still, I cannot find a single anecdote in Scripture of BELIEVERS who are "demon possessed." The Scriptural burden of proof isn't with those who have not found passages to support the notion, but with those who claim that the Scriptures support the idea that true believers can be demon possessed in the first place.

We are at an impasse brother. I know that I know that Jesus didn’t minister to any “Gentile” while He walked this earth, He only ministered to His own and He cast demons and evil spirits out of His own that were willing to admit they needed help. And it’s the same today, someone who is not willing to admit they need help, won’t receive it and someone who is not willing to help won’t be doing any of the helping.

And actually, I do not feel that we who believe that Christians can be demonized do not have to prove anything to anyone who doesn’t believe it can happen to a Christian. (Either we want to help set someone free from the influence of satan and his dominions or we do not; because we surely can’t stand around debating whether they are a Christian or not a Christian, have a demon or not while they are writhing on the floor or speaking in a voice that is not their own.)

If the Lord shows me differently, I will come back and openly apologize and agree with you but until that time my conscience is clear on this matter and this is where I stand.

You are loved as a brother in Christ! God bless you ccchhhrrriiisss!
Lisa

Hi ccchhhrrriiisss

What about that part of the Lord's prayer that says ...
DELIVER US from EVIL?

Blessings

Joch

John, (Bible4life) I thank you for your gracious patience, as you watch these pages go by one after another. This isn’t a neat tidy subject! Perhaps you can find some useful parallel between our struggle together on this matter and your own struggle for victory in Christ. I pray that God will lead you to complete victory, and that as he exposes and cleans out all the dark corners of your heart, you will find new liberating joy in him.

--------------------------------
Chris, Just a few comments:
My particular concern has not been so much on proving anything either way, but on the methods used to support a position. How can we claim scriptural authority if we have no explicit evidence from scripture to back us up? (Yes, there could very well be other grounds for an argument). The other issue I see is a semantic one.

You mention Rebecca Brown. I read her story once. She seems extreme. If I am judging accurately, (and I think you would agree), then surely we cannot use her to fairly represent the “other side”. In other words, someone can’t prove their position is right by comparing their best example with the most bizarre example of the other “side”.

It could be reasoned that if a believer truly has the Spirit, he cannot possibly have any sin ruling within: The two cannot coexist. Yet, in real life, we see otherwise. If sin can occupy a struggling believer, why not demonic influences? (I think this reasoning is equally fraught with trouble: we can’t readily distinguish who is and is not saved.)

I paste a blurb here about the filling of the Spirit. Here you see a focus on functional rather than spatial considerations of the Spirit. Regarding “unclean” spirits, I wonder if we do better to shift our attention from SPATIAL considerations to FUNCTIONAL considerations – as here:

-------------------------------------------
The Filling of the Spirit:

When the Spirit births new life in us, our very being becomes “God’s temple”. 1 Cor. 3:16 This means that God’s Spirit resides and operates - not in religious buildings - but in living flesh-and-blood people. What does that mean – practically speaking?

Consider the instruction: “Do not get drunk on wine, which [ruins your life]; Instead, be filled with the Spirit. Eph. 5:18 This is talking about influence: Instead of letting alcohol influence and dominate us, we are to let the Spirit influence and dominate us – our way of thinking and living. We submit ourselves to the Spirit (that is, God) to convict, to teach, guide, comfort, and transform us.

As our habits of thinking and living become dominated by God’s Spirit, we grow in spiritual maturity. Our abilities and gifts become freely available for God’s purposes, rather than for our own ends.

As the Spirit fills and dominates our lives, God, the giver of our gifts, becomes our centre of focus, not the gifts themselves. Through the Spirit’s influence in our lives, everything about us becomes more and more available to God, and our lives become consistently honoring to God, and in harmony with his purposes.

It is God who “has put his Spirit in our hearts”2 Cor. 1:22, but it is our duty to allow the Spirit to fill and dominate our lives.

Hi Lysa,

Yes, I entered this conversation late. However, I feel very strongly that there is NOTHING in all of Scripture to validate a claim that true Christians -- filled with the Holy Spirit and sealed for the day of redemption -- can be possessed by demons.

I have read through the Scriptures many times (as many have) and I have never seen any indication that a BELIEVER can be demon possessed. On the other hand, I have read passages that seem to indicate (or, at least, imply) otherwise.

The reason that I brought up ethnic Jews was simply to point out discrepancies when comparing them with New Testament "believers." They were lost as much as anyone else in the world unless they fulfilled the Law. Sadly, most could not fulfill the Law. Still, there were those who did the most to keep the Law (the Pharisees and Scribes) -- yet they were filled with "dead men's bones."

Thus, this is the reason that they needed Christ and His sacrifice as much as the Gentiles.

The point that I was trying to make is that we shouldn't try to impress the Lord to show us differently AFTER we have arrived to a conclusion. Rather, I believe that we should not arrive to a conclusion until the Lord -- through the Scriptures -- has verified and validated any thoughts that we have on a subject.

To this extent, I cannot conclude, teach or proclaim that the bodily Temple of truly born again, Spirit-filled believers can be conquered and co-inhabited by Satan and his fallen minions of darkness.

Hi Joch,

"DELIVER US from EVIL"
Gr: "rhyomai hēmas apo tou ponēros"

Deliver: "draw out"

When a baby is "delivered," he/she is removed from the womb. The mother is not "delivered" out of the baby. The baby is "delivered" FROM (or OUT OF) the mother.

"Possession" suggests "ownership" or that a person's body is acquired, inhabited and controlled by something other than the person. The question, in this case, is whether or not a child of God can have his/her "Temple of the Holy Spirit" acquired, inhabited and controlled by a demon.

When a person prays to be "delivered" from a storm, it doesn't mean that the storm is possessing them. They simply pray to be safely removed from it. A demon "possession" is akin to an intruder who has inhabited and/or taken control of a home (or, in this case, the Temple of the Holy Spirit).

Beside a matter of semantics, I have simply pointed out that I can find NOTHING in Scripture that makes me believe that a true believer can be demon possessed. This is the most important point that I am trying to make.

There just isn't any clear passage in all of Scripture that says that a real believer can be demon-possessed. Of all of the cases mentioned in Scripture where a person was demon-possessed, I cannot find a single example of a believer being the victim.

If we are going to use the Word of God as our primer for "testing everything" (I Thessalonians 5:21), then we must use it even if it supersedes our thoughts and experiences. We shouldn't be implored to search the Scriptures in order to disprove something; rather, we should see indisputable evidence in Scripture BEFORE we embrace or proclaim any Spiritual concept, doctrine or teaching.

I hope that this makes it a bit more clear what I am trying to say.

Hi roadsign,

There is a difference between "influence" and "possession." Moreover, there is a difference between "sin" and "demon possession."

A person -- and even a child -- can commit some sin. However, that doesn't mean that the person (or child) is demon possessed. Yes, the person has allowed sin into his heart and mind. However, it is still the person in control.

Yes, Scripture indicates that sin is a doorway for demonic activity. However, it doesn't mean that a child who lied to his parents is now in danger of being possessed by Satan or some demons -- especially if that child is a born again believer.

Demon possession, however, is not about a body ("the Temple of the Holy Spirit") being filled with the the Spirit of God and the heart, mind and soul of the person who may have contemplated or committed a sin. Rather, it is about whether the believer's body ("the Temple of the Holy Ghost") can be simultaneously inhabited by the Holy Spirit, the heart, mind and soul of the person AND a demon/demons who have taken POSSESSION of that Temple.

Obviously, believers can and do "mess up" in this fallen world and give into sin and the pleasures of this world. Some believers immediately repent of their sin while others seem to forget about the Lord and jump wholeheartedly into it. Their eternal status or condition can be argued for ages by theologians behind the pulpit or sitting in a pew.

However, there is a world of difference between a "sinner" (one who name the Name of Jesus or otherwise) and a "demon possessed" person. Remember: Not every "sinner" is "demon possessed."

As I said earlier, the Body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit. I do not see any examples in Scripture that leads me to believe that a truly born again believer can have that Temple of the Holy Spirit possessed by demons. This is not saying that someone might be afflicted, influenced or even oppressed by the devil. It is whether or not that Temple in which the Holy Spirit ABIDES can be conquered and controlled by a mere demon.

A Christian can choose to walk in the flesh. Walking in the flesh is akin to have Satan as your father and following him and eating of him. Anything not of God is of Satan. Many have needed deliverance. Does it matter how Satan and his demons are influencing or capturing a brother or sister? They need deliverance from his lies and possible bondage (oppression, possession, etc). We imbibe one of two spirits. The Spirit of God or the spirit of the world (the Evil one).

If you eat the Lord's flesh and blood, (eat from Him spiritually) He will fill you. If you eat from the only other spiritual "father" in the universe, then he will fill you. We all have one of two Fathers, God or Satan.

Just because you have eaten from Jesus' spirit, does not mean that you are protected from eating from Satan's spirit. Unless you believe in Christian perfectionism. That is why we are in a battle and we war against powers and principalities who are vying for our allegiance, heart and temple.

This is not hard to understand. The level or degree of filling is what people stumble upon. We have all known Believers (including ourselves) who have needed deliverance by God. Why do we get so legalistic about this?

Eating from Satan does not always look like a demoniac. You can be eating from him and fellowshipping with him and be a "very fine" religious person well thought of in the community. Anyone who eats from the evil spirit needs deliverance from the evil spirit.

I have never heard of fellowshipping with devils and not being affected by any spiritual exchange. Spiritual exchange will take place, you can count on that. The level or degree is what people seem to always debate about and stumble on.

When you are producing bad fruit you are not fellowshipping with God. So then, who are you fellowshipping with? There is only one other spiritual being that you can be fellowshipping with. Who are you eating from? Whose spirit is filling you or influencing you?

Pilgrim

It seems that, where the rubber hits the road, we are mainly dealing with signs and symptoms. How these symptoms are explained – well - there is quite a range of beliefs.

This is not saying that someone might be afflicted, influenced or even oppressed by the devil.

Chris, I accept your explanation far more readily than the claims I hear that “demonic” is interpreted to mean: the demon of fear, selfishness, pride, prejudice, etc. What’s really said here is: Since the demonic world is merely the imagination of ancient people and superstitious people, we must create categories for the word that fits our naturalistic worldview. I never cease to be amazed how we can be so adept at making the Bible support pre-suppositions.

I once met a woman who had been trained in deliverance ministry. After some years in the work she switched over to the Precepts Bible study training program. That’s where I met her. I asked her what motivated her to switch. She explained that she would see people get delivered; and for a time they would be fine. But they would keep returning because they they’d get re-afflicted. This woman blamed these demonic reoccurrences on lack of Biblical grounding. Good Biblical grounding, she felt, would prevent the need for repeated deliverances after the initial one. Why? Because that is how people's habits of thinking change. That is how they can change patterns which predispose them to demonic infiltration.

So, regardless of position on possession, we can I think collaborate on what scripture DOES say repeatedly and explicitly about the need to study and know it. Scripture is our God-given antidote against heresies, demonic menaces, sin, or whatever may hinder believers from moving on towards spirit-filled living. For that reason, any need to dissect and categorize demonic activities is redundant – in my view. It merely tempts us to tempt each other to read things into scripture which keeps us hopelessly divided.

And – let’s admit, the antidote is the same: Jesus Christ, and his spiritual blessings “in the heavenly realms.” Eph 1:3 It’s the spiritual armor of God.

Diane

Hi Diane,

Chris, I accept your explanation far more readily than the claims I hear that “demonic” is interpreted to mean: the demon of fear, selfishness, pride, prejudice, etc. What’s really said here is: Since the demonic world is merely the imagination of ancient people and superstitious people, we must create categories for the word that fits our naturalistic worldview. I never cease to be amazed how we can be so adept at making the Bible support pre-suppositions.

Yes, I know individuals who will blame every sin on the devil rather than the will of the individual.

I knew a missionary (that I used to travel with to Mexico) who had a daughter who was once caught cheating in school while she was in the 6th grade. She was suspended for a few days from school. The missionary was called to the principal's office in order to pick her up. During the drive home, the missionary asked his daughter why she did this.

The daughter started crying and said, "I have a devil, daddy! Can you cast the demon out of me?"

The missionary replied, "Sure. As soon as we get home, I will cast the demon out of you."

When they arrived home, he pulled out the paddle. She looked surprised and said, "I thought that you were going to cast the devil out of me!"

The missionary replied, "Yes...but I am going to drive it out first."

After her spanking and some "cool off" time, he asked, "Is the "demon" gone?"

"Yes daddy."

He asked, "Do you expect it to return anytime soon?"

"No daddy."

:-)

Now, I am just using this humorous anecdote to supplement what you said about people who connect "sin" with "demon possession." Some people associate every sin with some form of demonic influence or control. It could be used to deflect the "blame" of conduct from the person and award it to demons when, in reality, we are all led astray by our own lusts.

There have been plenty of people who are caught into even horrendous sin. However, the "demon possessed" individuals in the Bible were not mere "sinners." They are literally "possessed" (under complete authority and control) of demons.

This wasn't the result of the "lust of the flesh." In fact, this was quite supernatural -- to the point that the man possessed by "Legion" could break chains or the man possessed by demons could beat and disrobe all seven sons of the Jewish priest Sceva.

So, regardless of position on possession, we can I think collaborate on what scripture DOES say repeatedly and explicitly about the need to study and know it. Scripture is our God-given antidote against heresies, demonic menaces, sin, or whatever may hinder believers from moving on towards spirit-filled living. For that reason, any need to dissect and categorize demonic activities is redundant – in my view. It merely tempts us to tempt each other to read things into scripture which keeps us hopelessly divided.

And – let’s admit, the antidote is the same: Jesus Christ, and his spiritual blessings “in the heavenly realms.” Eph 1:3 It’s the spiritual armor of God.

I do agree that the antidote and remedy for all of it is the same. However, I do think that there can be a danger of declaring a far-reaching doctrinal assumption when the Scriptures are not clear on the subject. As I have said previously, I just haven't seen a place in the Scriptures where a truly born again believer is possessed of the devil.

Yes, I know individuals who will blame every sin on the devil rather than the will of the individual.

For sure! Mind you, Chris,I was referring to those who do NOT believe in demons. They use the word demon to address the idea of bondage to these besetting problems: fear, etc.

Of course, blaming sin entirely on the “will” is off the mark as much as blaming the devil. After all, humans are both victims and agents - never one or the other.

…. Here I go again…. Thinking out loud….

But that gives me a new thought: The branch of Christianity that focuses on blaming the conscious “will” exclusively for sin (the sinner as an agent), may very well give impetus for another branch of Christianity to focus on the sinner as the victim (of the devil, or whatever).

It’s the old balancing act. However, rather than things getting balanced, there typically seems to be a tendency for the pendulum to swing wider and wider between sides. And this could suggest that those who condemn JPL (as being among those who blame the devil) may be just as guilty of error for their alternate stance.

Diane