Word Study: The Faith of God (or Christ)

I recently received two questions on this from different folk so I thought it might be useful to raise the question here.Question 1: My query is in respect to the phrases 'faith of Christ' and 'faith in Christ'. Obviously, there is a world of difference between the implications of the two, but what saith the Greek? Without an understanding of that language I try to make sense of the repeat of the word 'ho' in Galatians 2:20. Again, have I heard it said that Mark 11:22 should read: 'have the faith of God'?When I look at other references to 'faith of' it appears that the word 'of' is not present - is this right?Question 2: I am quite perplexed about the distinction between the 'faith OF God' or Christ and faith IN God or Christ. Is this merely the 'faithfulness' of God when we say "the faith of God"? Or are we to suppose God uses faith?This was my answer to the first question: My understanding is that both translations would be valid. My instinct is always to include rather than narrow when it comes to hermeneutics. However I think there is a short cut which may interest you. Look at these verses.Rom 3:3 the faith of God. I think that clearly means God's faith in this context.Rom 3:22 the faith of Jesus Chris - lets hold on that one.Rom 4:12 the faith of our father Abraham. No doubt here this is the faith that Abraham had or 'Abraham-type' faith.Rom 4:16 the faith of Abraham. No doubt here either. This is Abraham-type faith.Gal 2:16,20. 3:22 . as Rom 3:22 above.The phrase ‘the faith of’ certainly seems able to bear the weight of ‘belonging to’. This list is not exhaustive but look at the way Paul, by the Spirit, uses this phrase. To me the weight of evidence is in favour of 'the faith of Jesus Christ' meaning 'Christ's Faith' or Christ-type faith. I believe we need Abraham-type faith for justification, and Christ-type faith for regeneration. John Wesley distinguished his attitude of heart after Fetter Lane to that before Fetter Lane, by saying "I had even then the faith of a servant, though not that of a son" Journal Vol 1 p422n. I think this is valid.In short, I don't think we can prove our point from the Greek but I think that Paul's use of this phrase from other contexts strongly implies thatthis is Christ's Faith, in the sense of the kind of faith that Christ has and not faith in Christ.This post may create more questions than answers, but this is just a starter…

And the layperson jumps up from the peanut gallery ... My query is in respect to the phrases 'faith of Christ' and 'faith in Christ'. Obviously, there is a world of difference between the implications of the two, but what saith the Greek? Without an understanding of that language I try to make sense of the repeat of the word 'ho' in Galatians 2:20. Again, have I heard it said that Mark 11:22 should read: 'have the faith of God'?Not sure there is a difference at all from this perspective;If we are bought, friends/bonservants/soldiers of the Lord and have faith in Christ, do we not then have within us the faith of Christ?My, just musing this out loud is proving to be somewhat of a revelation...!Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.Knowing that; Joh 3:34 "For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure."And; Joh 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease."Is it only the amount of resistance within us that hinders the full 'measure' of our "faith in" becoming our "faith of Christ" ?This is rich!...certainly the opposite would be true as well and can't help wonder if that "of" had us in totality that this might be more true than we have ever known;Joh 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me no question. Verily, verily, I say unto you, if ye shall ask anything of the Father, he will give it you in my name. Little play on words there, but still...

To expound a bitSome Philologos style Biblical algebra...A) in + 'of'* = "Your's" ?B) in + of = "His" ?C) in - of = "Lord, Lord, did we not ..."(* Thinking along the lines of mental accession)Pardon the slight diversion, but it does seem that in large part this does relate to the idea and the 'sound' of "inviting Christ into your life" if referenced to the result of "A" above (Your's) as it is much promoted in our modern day and gives one (at least this one) a case of the 'willies', that squirmy feeling that we are giving people the wrong end of the stick.Who did the inviting?Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer the little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for to such belongeth the kingdom of heaven. Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day. Yes, quite familiar with the usage of;Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. and the application and/or whether this applies 'only' to the church...But frankly, it's a takeover plot and if we give the result of "A" instead of "B" we end up with "C".Even the demons believe in part of the equations.Think I have lost myself in all this math...Guess I am just trying to say, "Who's got who?""Belonging to" as Ron put it.And as it relates to this discussion there is much faith in... all kinds of who knows what, "Faith in 'Faith'" of the prosperity gospel\\Word of Faith type, "Faith in Christ" as some type of fire insurance (never reading the fine print)... I digress, sorry for the length, just some brain dumping, do ignore the fumbling...Better said by Paris Reidhead;He's like a fellow driving up in a big Cadillac you know, to someone standing at a filling station saying “Fill her up, Bud, with the highest octane you got.” Well, that’s the way it looked, he wanted power for his program. And God is not going to be a means to anyone’s end. I said, “I’m awfully sorry, I don’t think I can help you." He said “Why?” "I don’t think you’re ready. Well suppose, you consider yourself coming up with a Cadillac, you’ve talked about your program, you’ve talked about your radio, you’ve talked about your Sunday school and church. Very good. You’ve done wonderfully well without the power of the Holy Spirit.” That’s what the Chinese Christian said you know when he got back to China. “What impressed you most about America?” He said, “The great things Americans can accomplish without God.” And he’d accomplished a great deal, admittedly, without God. And now he’s wanted something, power, to accomplish his end even further.I said “No. No. You’re gonna, you're sitting behind the wheel and you’re saying to God, 'Give me power so I can go.' You won't work, you gotta slide over." But I knew that rascal, 'cause I knew me. I said, “No it’ll never do. You gotta get in the back seat.” And I could see him leaning over and grabbing the wheel. “No,” I said. “It’ll never do in the back seat.” I said “Before God’ll do anything for you, you know what you gotta do?” And he said, “What?” I said, “You gotta get out of the car, take the keys around, open up the trunk lid, hand the keys to the Lord Jesus, get inside the trunk, slam the lid down, whisper through the keyhole, ‘Lord, look, fill her up with anything You want and You drive, it’s up to You from now on.’” "The Revival Hymn" Audio TranscriptionGot a feeling I really botched this up and made it more confusing than necessary and didn't want to go off on some negative dirge...Maybe the simplest way to put it is that you can't separate one from the other?

Hi Bro Ron and Bro Mike,A couple things pop-up in my mind. I know that one of the gifts of the Spirit is faith and that God has dealt unto every man the 'measure' of faith. In both cases it seems clear to me that the faith in question is a gift from God to us to exercise as needed. It would seem that faith IN Christ would be to exercise the faith OF Christ (Christ's faith that he gave to us) in Him. Perhaps faith is the catalyst that activated the power of God; but in all cases it seems God's will must come into play. I don't know how you would diagram that statement? :-?The faith folk seem to believe faith is a force that can be weilded. They believe that God used the force of faith to create the cosmos (Hebrews 11 is their proof text). Yet, I understand that passage to say; "By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God..." Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. I understand by faith, not God created by faith. Who was it I read here that said, "Faith where there is no promise is superstition?" This is exactly my point. If faith can be weilded as a force...Any thoughts?God Bless,-Robert

I believe we need Abraham-type faith for justification, and Christ-type faith for regeneration. Hi Bro. Ron,Would this mean that the faith exercised for justification is the 'measure' of faith (Romans 12) that has been dealt to every man and that at justification we receive the 'faith of Christ' as a gift to further exercise for regeneration? I never teach on that level and doubt I ever would, but it would be interesting to work out for my own sake.God Bless,-Robert

This has really stayed with me and forgive me for the earlier tangent, not sure I was fully engaged at least in attempting mathematical equations.Still fascinated with the implications of these questions and the tense of those 2, two letter words in this context of the questions asked originally.Another that jumped up;1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.Still thinking along the lines of both. And I think another reason is that it applies to much of our dialouge when it comes to 'dying to self', justification by faith and a whole host of other questions that come up, especially early on in this walk.Reaching back to those early days when the mind is beginning to be torqued into all kinds of uncomfortable positions...And as it ought to be, being born again should produce some crying as the Holy Spirit begins to deal with us, revealing our hearts, touching our pride, anger, unforgiveness, that 'old' disposition and it's bents toward evil ("You, being evil...)And it isn't too far along where the confusion set's in as to 'who has which job' now. Do I sit passively by as 'the Lord works through me'? What am I supposed to do? All the implications and the stalling at Romans 7; 'Wretched man that I am...'Albert Barnes has some excellent commentary on 1Co 2. A snippet;" The faith of Christians does not stand in the wisdom of man. Every Christian has evidence in his own heart, in his experience, and in the transformation of his character, that none but God could have made the change on his soul. His hopes, his joys, his peace, his sanctification, his love of prayer, of the Bible, of Christians, of God, and of Christ, are all such as nothing could have produced but the mighty power of God. All these bear marks of their high origin. They are the work of God on the soul. And as the Christian is fully conscious that these are not the native feelings, of his heart - that if left to himself he would never have had them; so he has the fullest demonstration that they are to be traced to a divine source. And can he be mistaken about their existence? Can a man doubt whether he has joy, and peace, and happiness? Is the infidel to tell him coolly that he must be mistaken in regard to the existence of these emotions, and that it is all delusion?"Preaching to the choir? Trying to keep in mind that you never know who may be peering in on these conversations.More and more am beginning to see what it means in the spiritual sense of "He must increase, I must decrease" and where the "Faith of" and the "Faith in" meet. Something that Oswald Chambers weaves into much of his writing and has crept into my thinking; Disposition. Not as much as a 'replacement' per se but as in changed, "being conformed into."Two more words:ac·qui·si·tionPronunciation: "a-kw&-'zi-sh&nFunction: noun1 : the act or action of acquiring; specifically : the obtaining of controlling interest in a company —compare MERGER, TAKEOVER2 : a thing gained or acquired merg·erPronunciation: 'm&r-j&rFunction: noun1 : the absorption of a lesser estate or interest into a greater one held by the same person —compare CONFUSION ~~~~~~~This latter definition strikes me as quite profound as it applies here, especially the irony of 'CONFUSSION' tacked on to the end. So in that sense the "Faith in" is 'our' part with the "Faith of" 'His' part along with the 'controlling interest' of this merger...Glory!Of course there is still Hebrews 11 to be brought out into all this.

Ron B’s post: My query is in respect to the phrases 'faith of Christ' and 'faith in Christ'. Obviously, there is a world of difference between the implications of the two, but what saith the Greek? Without an understanding of that language I try to make sense of the repeat of the word 'ho' in Galatians 2:20. Again, have I heard it said that Mark 11:22 should read: 'have the faith of God'?Mike’s post: Not sure there is a difference at all from this perspective;If we are bought, friends/bonservants/soldiers of the Lord and have faith in Christ, do we not then have within us the faith of Christ?Yes, this was me quoting another, but even so there is a difference of emphasis, I think. My basic understanding is that faith does not reside latently in the heart waiting for a target. That would be the sense of much of the ‘faith’ emphasis from recent years. The idea there is that we have, all of us, certain residual abilities and that we can use them as we choose. This is not my understanding of faith.For me, faith must always have its origin in the ‘speakings of God’; faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. The fact that this verse speaks of ‘faith coming’ implies there is a time before faith. The verb ‘cometh’ is not in the Greek but the phrase is ‘pistis ex akoEs’. The preposition ‘ex’ denotes origin; faith, then, has its origin in ‘hearing’. There is one of those telling little switches in the prepositions. Faith comes ‘from’ hearing, and hearing ‘through’ the speaking of God’ The process of faith then is initiated by God speaking. This is fundamental to my understanding of faith. It is possible only because God speaks, but faith comes into existence as a result of our hearing.Hearing can often have the sense not just of something being audible but of have been received, as when say to a child ‘did you hear what I said?’. This is not an enquiry as to the mechanics of sound but as to recognition and response. It is, in my understanding, an enabling that demands a response, hence my usual little mantra that ‘faith is right response to revelation while sin is wrong response to revelation’. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. (Rom 14:23 KJV) and Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. (Jam 4:17 KJV)Faith then has an object; the revelation, AND an empowering. Both are God’s unique and sovereign work. Because faith has a specific object all faith is not the same faith. ‘take up you bed and walk’ does not create the kind of faith referred to in ‘believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved’. ‘faith in Christ’ is emphasising the object of the faith; the question is does ‘the faith of Christ’ described a particular ‘kind’ of faith, or a particular origin of faith.Perhaps my original note to my first questioner was a little too brief. I was pointing out two verses of scripture1. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (Rom 4:16 KJV)This phrase is ‘pisteOs abraam’; pisteOs is the genitive form of ‘faith’. It is ‘Abraham’s faith’; the faith that ‘belongs to’ or ‘pertains to’ Abraham. You might paraphrase it the faith that belonged to Abraham, or even ‘Abraham-type faith’. 2. Gal 2:16 and Gal 3:22 uses the same form of statement; ‘pisteOs iEseOs christiou’. Following from its use as regarding Abraham, where we think we know what it means, this would give us ; ‘Jesus Christ’s faith’; ‘the faith that ‘belong to’ or ‘pertains to’ Jesus Christ’. We might paraphrase that as ‘the faith the belonged to Jesus Christ’, or even ‘Jesus Christ’ type faith’.The point I was making is that however we translate No 1 should give us some clues as to how we should translate No 2. And whichever translation we choose we are making a distinction between ‘Abraham’s’ and ‘Christ’s’. Now, what is that difference?

Robert’s post: Would this mean that the faith exercised for justification is the 'measure' of faith (Romans 12) that has been dealt to every man and that at justification we receive the 'faith of Christ' as a gift to further exercise for regeneration? I never teach on that level and doubt I ever would, but it would be interesting to work out for my own sake.Although I want to distinguish ‘kinds’ of faith, I don’t want to suggest that faith itself operates in different ways. All faith, of whatever kind, operates in the same way… through having ‘heard the word of God’. The question is what ‘word’ did the hearer hear?The NASB corrects a possible misunderstanding in its translation; For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. (Rom 12:3 NASB) It is not ‘the measure’ of faith indicating that everyone has the same faith, but ‘a measure’ indicating that ‘each man’ has his own unique measure of faith’. This is not the ‘common faith’ of 2 Pet 1:1, but part of the variegated life and ministry which is in focus in Romans 12. We also need to employ our usual filter, by asking the question ‘who is the ‘each man’ that Paul has in mind?’ Is this the whole human race? Not in this context, I think. This is specifically people ‘like Paul’ to whom has been given ‘grace’. In other words these are Christ’s people. Everyone of Christ’s people has a unique measure of enabling faith, and the outworking of that truth will be seen in Romans 12:4ff. This is not ‘saving faith’ but ‘serving faith’. One serving another; Rom 12:5,10,16.This passage is an encouragement and gentle admonition to all Christ’s people. God has graced them with specific measures of faith. That is encouragement to see our unique place among Christ’s people, but it is also a ‘unique measure of faith’ and one person must not conclude that he can operate in the same ‘measure of gift’ as another.I think faith, like sin, is always specific and never general.

This passage is an encouragement and gentle admonition to all Christ’s people. God has graced them with specific measures of faith. That is encouragement to see our unique place among Christ’s people, but it is also a ‘unique measure of faith’ and one person must not conclude that he can operate in the same ‘measure of gift’ as another.Hi Bro Ron,Do you think that the variations in the 'measure' of men's faith is based upon their consistent right response to revelation ? If we respond rightly consistently to God- does this 'build' our faith (as it were)? When I think of Job I see great faith, yet the faith He exercised seemed to be to simply trust God through his circumstances. He was exercising faith (so it seemed) in the revelation of who he believed God is. This leads me to believe that our faith can be increased by trials and tribulations. God has also revealed Himself in other ways to me that has greatly increased my faith. What it boils down to it seems is that with each situation He removes another facet of doubt. So then faith is not just belief and trust and obedience; but it is the absense of doubt. This topic seems to explode into all kind of directions. :-?God Bless,-Robert

What it boils down to it seems is that with each situation He removes another facet of doubt. So then faith is not just belief and trust and obedience; but it is the absense of doubt. Like that very much Robert, seems to side nicely up to; "He must increase, I must decrease"This topic seems to explode into all kind of directions.Oh if that ain't the truth!Can see already how I went in a kind of quasi-sideways direction earlier. Reading Ron's response this morning produced the following, that I had to leave in detainment as the realization struck me;"Thanks Ron,Have been eagerly anticipating your reply here. More to think on and a better fleshing out of the question/s and your explanations, very helpful.‘faith in Christ’ is emphasising the object of the faith; the question is does ‘the faith of Christ’ described a particular ‘kind’ of faith, or a particular origin of faith"Origin", without a doubt. If, to bring back "We have the mind of Christ" into the mix..."Right there I thought, wait a minute...Maybe some out loud backtracking. Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Barnes again;Heb 11:1 - Now faith is the substance of things hoped for - On the general nature of faith, see the notes on Mar_16:16. The margin here is, “ground or confidence.” There is scarcely any verse of the New Testament more important than this, for it states what is the nature of all true faith, and is the only definition of it which is attempted in the Scriptures. Eternal life depends on the existence and exercise of faith Mar_16:16, and hence, the importance of an accurate understanding of its nature. The word rendered “substance” - ὑπόστασις hupostasis - occurs in the New Testament only in the following places. In 2Co_9:4; 2Co_11:17; Heb_3:14, where it is rendered “confident” and “confidence;” and in Heb_1:3, where it is rendered “person,” and in the passage before us; compare the notes on Heb_1:3. Prof. Stuart renders it here “confidence;” Chrysostom, “Faith gives reality or substance to things hoped for.”The word properly means “that which is placed under” (Germ. Unterstellen); then “ground, basis, foundation, support.” Then it means also “reality, substance, existence,” in contradistinction from what is unreal, imaginary, or deceptive (täuschung). “Passow.” It seems to me, therefore, that the word here has reference to something which imparts reality in the view of the mind to those things which are not seen, and which serves to distinguish them from those things which are unreal and illusive. It is what enables us to feel and act as if they were real, or which causes them to exert an influence over us as if we saw them. Faith does this on all other subjects as well as religion. A belief that there is such a place as London or Calcutta, leads us to act as if this were so, if we have occasion to go to either; a belief that money may be made in a certain undertaking, leads people to act as if this were so; a belief in the veracity of another leads us to act as if this were so. As long as the faith continues, whether it be well-founded or not, it gives all the force of reality to what is believed. We feel and act just as if it were so, or as if we saw the object before our eyes. This, I think, is the clear meaning here. We do not see the things of eternity. We do not see God, or heaven, or the angels, or the redeemed in glory, or the crowns of victory, or the harps of praise; but we have faith in them, and this leads us to act as if we saw them. And this is, undoubtedly, the fact in regard to all who live by faith and who are fairly under its influence.~~~~~~~~~~~And the mind staggers... The scripture verses are coming fast and furious and the brain cell count is going... "Whoah!" :-? (But I love it) 8-)

Hi Bro Mike,I like this quote:We do not see the things of eternity. We do not see God, or heaven, or the angels, or the redeemed in glory, or the crowns of victory, or the harps of praise; but we have faith in them, and this leads us to act as if we saw them. And this is, undoubtedly, the fact in regard to all who live by faith and who are fairly under its influence.It reminds me of the words of our Lord; Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. (John 20:29). I have a teaching somewhere in which I examine the role of the will in exercising faith. There is something about man that he/she does not weigh evidence consistently. The standard gets changed based upon what a person wants to believe or not to believe. I think this is why its important to live full of the Spirit while we are studying theology because of the influence of rebellion on our beliefs as a whole. Sin always leads to deception. I suppose the great question is; "why don't unrepentant men believe?" Or "why don't believers have the faith they need to rise to a certain occasion?" More excellently; "Wherefor didst thou doubt?" Jesus answers at least one aspect of this in Matthew 17; And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. (AV) And Jesus answering said, O unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I bear with you? Bring him here to me. (Darby) And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour. (AV) Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? (AV) And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. (AV)But an evil spirit of this kind is only driven out by prayer and fasting. (Wey) (Matthew 17)I see 4 things here:1) Faithlessness2) Perverseness3) Unbelief4) Insf. Prayer5) Insf. FastingPerhaps we could sort through the ramifications of each of these issues. ;-)

Do you think that the variations in the 'measure' of men's faith is based upon their consistent right response to revelation ? If we respond rightly consistently to God- does this 'build' our faith (as it were)? I'm sure that all gifts are given 'according to their individual ability' (Matt 25;15) This implies that men have a 'capacity' and that God gives his gifts according to that capacity. However we discover, in the case of the 5 talent man, that his stewardship increased his 'gift' to 10 talents. This must mean that his capacity increased with his stewardship, and could still take another to make his total 11 talents.I think the exercise of faith certainly developes capacity for faith; this is my continuing theme from Abraham. On a more ominous note it would seem that the single talent man's capacity never grew, and ultimately he lost what he had. Yes, I do believe that future revelation is dependent upon faithful stewardship of earlier revelation.As regards 'doubt' I feel another definition coming on... How would you define 'doubt'?

Barnes quotation: There is scarcely any verse of the New Testament more important than this, for it states what is the nature of all true faith, and is the only definition of it which is attempted in the Scriptures.This is a true word. I think we can get an estimate of the importance of a topic in proportion to the enemies attempts to distort it. If that is true, Barnes is right, there is scarcely any verse.. more important than this...My reasoning with the Abraham series has had this in mind all through. He is the Bible's prime example of faith, but I have tried to show that his life was a pilgrimage with long journeys in between the high points. The tendency is to concentrate of Abraham's leaps of faith, the scripture is more interested in his steps.

As regards 'doubt' I feel another definition coming on... How would you define 'doubt'?I guess before we can answer why we doubted we must first understand the nature of our error. It seems that the root for doubt in the Greek means twice or two. That leads me to "doublemindedness." I have looked at this before and it meant "two-spirited." I think more excellently it would be one who halts between two opinions. They cannot or will not rightly weigh the evidence, therefor they cannot judge rightly as to whether to believe or not. I see this as a process in some cases of thinking through the ramifications of certain revealed truths (if they are true). If the ramifications fit "their will" then they will believe- if they do not- they will find a way to disprove and dismiss the evidence. This is ultimately why men will believe the lie that they all may be damned who obeyed not the Gospel, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.. That pleasure seems to hold weight in the balance of their judgment tilting the scales into disbelief when left to itself the truth had surely tipped the balance. I don't know if I defined a thing. ;-)God Bless,-Robert

I believe we need Abraham-type faith for justification, and Christ-type faith for regeneration. I believe there is no difference in faith. Faith is the substance hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. The root of faith is in God. Man cannot have faith unless it is God who works in man. Faith is the supernatural work of God in man. Brother Robert wrote:Would this mean that the faith exercised for justification is the 'measure' of faith (Romans 12) that has been dealt to every man and that at justification we receive the 'faith of Christ' as a gift to further exercise for regeneration? I never teach on that level and doubt I ever would, but it would be interesting to work out for my own sake.Why would you not teach the deeper things of Christ?In ChristJeff

I believe there is no difference in faith. Faith is the substance hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. The root of faith is in God. Man cannot have faith unless it is God who works in man. Faith is the supernatural work of God in man. Are you sure? I can have an unholy faith for wordly things and a biblical faith for the things of God. I know this may start a fresh revelation of your beliefs, but faith comes by hearing.

Brother Zeke wrote:I know this may start a fresh revelation of your beliefs, but faith comes by hearing.Is. 30:21 \tYour ears shall hear a word behind you, saying,\t“This is the way, walk in it,”\tWhenever you turn to the right hand\tOr whenever you turn to the left. You are Scripturally correct. "Your ears shall hear a word behind you, "This is the way, walk in it."God must speak before man can know Him and thus have faith in Him who he hears.In ChristJeff

Rev. 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Jesus is the mediator between His Father and man. Those who hear His voice will be given "the faith of Jesus." There has never been any other way.In ChristJeff

Why would you not teach the deeper things of Christ?Hi Bro Jeff,It's not that I don't teach the deeper things, the settings that I minister in would not support that level of study generally. In some contexts yes, but in most it would not. I wish it would. I also insist on staying in the realm of relative certainty and not exploring areas of speculation while teaching. Time is too short to delve as deeply as we could- yet for some, teaching too deeply opens the door for the enemy cause babes in Christ to rest on things hard to be understood and rattle their faith.God Bless,-Robert

RonB post:I believe we need Abraham-type faith for justification, and Christ-type faith for regeneration. Jeff post:I believe there is no difference in faith. Faith is the substance hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. The root of faith is in God. Man cannot have faith unless it is God who works in man. Faith is the supernatural work of God in man.

Brother Ron wrote:This was intended to provoke, but not Jeff especially!That comment put a smile on my face. I believe the word "grace" defines the supernatural work of God in men. I agree that the grace dispensed by God on man differs according to the work God has planned for each individual. Yet, the outcome of the grace always manifests itself in man to enable each individual to first, Love God with all our heart, mind, and strength, and secondly to love one another as He has loved us. We love Him because He first loved us. Faith is the product of the grace realized by the individual. Thus it is the work of Christ to produce the faith in man which enables him to love the Father just as the Son does. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit work to reconcile fallen man to Himself. Those who obey receive the "faith of Jesus." In ChristJeff

Brother Robert wrote: Time is too short to delve as deeply as we could- yet for some, teaching too deeply opens the door for the enemy cause babes in Christ to rest on things hard to be understood and rattle their faith.In the book, "The Heavenly Man," Brother Yun identified this characteristic of the western church.I do not have the book infront of me so I will have to paraphrase his point according to memory. He basically said, "When western preachers come to speak at the house churches, we experience difficulty in our church. Most western preachers can only speak for 45 minutes. Our brethren are willing to listen for hours."What kind of forum will allow us to teach the deeper things of God?In ChristJeff

The kind of faith referred to as 'Abraham's faith' is the kind that enabled God to credit Abraham with righteousness; this was and is 'justifying faith'. 'Son's faith' is of a different order. This would be a good time to define these differences:1) Abrahamic Faith:?2) Son's Faith:?Perhaps there is a brief statement for each.God Bless,-Robert

Jeff posted:I believe the word "grace" defines the supernatural work of God in men. I agree that the grace dispensed by God on man differs according to the work God has planned for each individual. Yet, the outcome of the grace always manifests itself in man to enable each individual to first, Love God with all our heart, mind, and strength, and secondly to love one another as He has loved us.Doesn't this undermine your own position? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace. (Luk 7:50 KJV)And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee. (Luk 18:42 KJV)In each of these instances the 'believer' received a different kind of 'salvation'. It is the different foci of faith which I am trying to point out. The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, (Act 14:9 KJV) In fact the word 'healed' here is actually 'saved'. Paul, however, recognised what I am calling a 'different kind of faith' here; faith to be healed/saved.In these instances the grace of God did not enable each individual to first, Love God with all our heart, mind, and strength, and secondly to love one another as He has loved us. It simply enabled them to believe that God was able to heal them at that particular time. I have seen more that one person who was able to believe and receive healing who never went on to Love God with all our heart, mind, and strength, and secondly to love one another as He has loved us.

What kind of forum will allow us to teach the deeper things of God?Well, for me I would have to have a firm grasp on the topic and be comfortable that it would in fact edify. I do agree that the time constraints are horrible. I can speak for long periods of time and am often critized or 'teased' for that. In my circles an entire service may last 1.5 hours to 2.5 hours tops. The sermon is rarely over 45 minutes. The class I teach is about 45 minutes long. In reality it demonstrates the need for revival. As they saying goes, "In revival... time does not exist." We need revival.God Bless,-Robert

The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, (Act 14:9 KJV) In fact the word 'healed' here is actually 'saved'. Paul, however, recognised what I am calling a 'different kind of faith' here; faith to be healed/saved.This is very important to point out due to the finality of supposing all faith was the same faith. If we follow through believing all faith is the same we would have to conclude that if a person does not have enough faith to be 'healed' of a sickness- they don't have enough faith to be saved from sin. -Robert

Br. Robert wrote:This is very important to point out due to the finality of supposing all faith was the same faith.I agree, faith differs according to the individual. For each individual differs from another. The manifestation of sin is each individual differs, but the source is the same. Likewise, grace finds is source in God. Faith differs, but the source waters the seed.Grace that is dispensed, in what constitutes signs and wonders, gives evidence to man that the "I AM" exists. To know that He exist is the door by which many enter into a relationship with Him. One still has a free choice to walk through that door. God's grace is always dispensed so that man may glorify Him.Brother Ron, would you concur that the nature of healing spoken of in the following verse also pretains to God saving His people?2Chr. 30:20 And the LORD listened to Hezekiah and healed the people. In ChristJeff

Br. Robert wrote:I guess before we can answer why we doubted we must first understand the nature of our error. It seems that the root for doubt in the Greek means twice or two. That leads me to "doublemindedness." I have looked at this before and it meant "two-spirited." I think more excellently it would be one who halts between two opinions. They cannot or will not rightly weigh the evidence, therefor they cannot judge rightly as to whether to believe or not. I see this as a process in some cases of thinking through the ramifications of certain revealed truths (if they are true). Earlier in the thread you spoke of an understanding of the progression of the growth of faith in an individual. You spoke of justification, then regeneration. And then you said that you probably would not teach this. If God has revealed His truth to you as His shepherd, should you not feed His sheep. Luke 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”Rom. 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”Faith changes as He reveals Himself to us. If God has revealed the truth to you, then in faith you must feed His sheep. Lack of understanding is the product of unbelief.God BlessJeff

Another thought:Did not the faith of Abraham grow from faith to faith because of God's grace? God called Abraham His friend. Likewise Jesus called His disciples His friends. John 15:15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. Did not God say in Scripture of Abraham, Gen. 18: 17 And the LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing, 18 since Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I have known him, in order that he may command his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the LORD, to do righteousness and justice, that the LORD may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him.” Also:James 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. Can the nature of what God calls friendship change?In ChristJeff

Brother Ron, would you concur that the nature of healing spoken of in the following verse also pretains to God saving His people?2Chr. 30:20 And the LORD listened to Hezekiah and healed the people. From the context I would have said that this is not a reference to physical healing at all, but to God restoring the people to spiritual health.2Ch_30:20God heard this intercession, and healed the people. רפא, sanare, is not to be explained by supposing, with Bertheau, that first sickness, and then even death, were to be expected as the results of transgression of the law, according to Lev_15:31, and that the people might be already regarded as sick, as being on the point of becoming so. The use of the word is explained by the fact that sin was regarded as a spiritual disease, so that רפא is to be understood of healing the soul (as Psa_41:5), or the transgression (Hos_14:5; Jer_3:22).Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the Old TestamentJohann (C.F.) Keil (1807-1888) & Franz Delitzsch (1813-1890)

Can the nature of what God calls friendship change?Both a slave or a son could be a friend, but that doesn't mean that every friend is a son, or that every son developes into a friend.

Can one be an heir without being a son?In ChristJeff

Jeff posted: Can one be an heir without being a son?A wise servant shall have rule over a son that causeth shame, and shall have part of the inheritance among the brethren. (Pro 17:2 KJV)

Gal. 4:7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. Gal. 4:30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”Was Isaac heir of the bondwoman or the freewoman?In ChristJeff

Earlier in the thread you spoke of an understanding of the progression of the growth of faith in an individual. You spoke of justification, then regeneration. And then you said that you probably would not teach this. Hi Bro Jeff,I must have grossly mispoke if thats what I actually said. Certainly I did not mean that. I have audio teachings from the class on this site that teach both topics. What I meant to say is that I do not unravel the quantum elements of faith as to lead down paths where there is either little light or the light I have is not enough to expand in that area past that point.God Bless,-Robert

Was Isaac heir of the bondwoman or the freewoman?Sorry, don't understand what you are getting at. Is this a response to my answer to your earlier question?

Br Robert wrote:I must have grossly mispoke if thats what I actually said. Certainly I did not mean that.I probably put more emphasis on your words and saw something that was not intended. I have learned that as God reveals Scripture to me, the more I share the understanding that I have at that moment, the more God works to refine that understanding that is coming into the light. I know many of you may disagree with a number of the thoughts that I have shared, but I have experienced the verse, "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there alittle." I do not claim to have the understanding of the truth, just the road that leads to the truth. My Lord has much work to do.God Bless Jeff

Br Ron used this Scripture:A wise servant shall have rule over a son that causeth shame, and shall have part of the inheritance among the brethren. (Pro 17:2 KJV)I don't believe this pretains to the question, Can one be an heir without being a son. Paul writes, Galatians 3: 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. 1 Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. Abraham was an heir, is he a son also?In ChristJeff

I don't believe this pretains to the question, Can one be an heir without being a son. Paul writes, Galatians 3:Yes, Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; (Gal 4:1 KJV)Servants certainly were not 'sons'. When the fulness of time came God sent forth His Son to redeem those that were under the law; these were children. Heirs but children; they had not entered into their inheritance because the 'time appointed of the father' had not 'fully come'.As a result of the Spirit, children become heirs, and so do slaves. Yes, you can be an heir without being a son, but you can't be son without being an heir. Not in the sense implied by Paul in Galatians 4.

Brother Ron, What does Paul mean when he writes, "though he be lord of all?"In ChristJeff

Brother Robert wrote in his first post on this thread:t would seem that faith IN Christ would be to exercise the faith OF Christ (Christ's faith that he gave to us) in Him.Romans 10:6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”In this verse,"“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): The idea of faith is the means by which we enter into a relationship with our Savior. The means points to searching out the "Life" that is near everyone of us. The "faith of Christ," in a sense describes the "Life" that we inherit as we take on His yoke. The yoke to me represents the word of God that directs us daily. Jesus pulls the reigns and we either submit or stubbornly reject the pull of the reigns. As we learn to submit, we are taught the substance of what Jesus hopes for in our lives. The understanding that comes of this training is to know the treasure that exists in the "Life." The product of this understanding creates the "faith of Jesus" in us. Glorifying God will be the completion of the work of 'His faith," in us. In ChristJeff

Jeff posted; What does Paul mean when he writes, "though he be lord of all?"Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: (Gal 4:1-3 KJV)In a potential sense*. And Sarah my master's wife bare a son to my master when she was old: and unto him hath he given all that he hath. (Gen 24:36 KJV) Hebrew tenses are not like ours. This is the 'complete' tense and is used for future events where those events are certain, as well as certain past and certain present events. The sense is permanence; settled. It is often used in the prophetic statements of the OT.Some years ago an uncle of mine died and left a small inheritance for my children. The amount was to be invested until each child reached the age of 21. Up until that time, they were Uncle Fred's heirs, but had no enjoyment of their inheritance 'until the time appointed' by Uncle Fred! Later we had other children who had not been named in Uncle Fred's will; they had no inheritance to look forward to. Nevertheless, until the 'time appointed' they were no worse off than Uncle Fred's heirs. But when their 21st birthday arrived each named heir entered into the good of their inheritance; at that point, but not before it, they did 'differ' from the non-heirs. At age 21, children 1-3 each received their inheritance; £50 each! At age 21, children 4-7 received no inheritance! It was a source of some minor rancour in our little family!Abraham was still alive at this time and Isaac was in the position of an 'heir' who has not yet come into his inheritance; this latter seems to have occured when Abraham finally died; And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac. But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country. And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, an hundred threescore and fifteen years. Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people. (Gen 25:5-8 KJV)Paul is making the point that before a certain time came, which he describes as the 'fulness of time', the heirs and the non-heirs alike had not experienced the inheritance. The Spirit of Sonship, who came when the 'day of Pentecost' was 'fully come', caused Jew and Gentile, (heir and slave) alike to enter into the original promise of full Sonship. But the scriptures shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now faith that is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ. There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise. (Gal 3:22-29 ASV)Before 'faith came' Jews were children and Gentiles were bond-slaves. Both we, believing Jews, and ye believing Gentiles, are 'sons' now that 'faith has come.* Lord of allLegally, by right of birth, though not actually. (Vincent's Word Studies)Though he be lord of all - That is, in prospect. He has a prospective right to all the property, which no one else has. The word “lord” here (κύριος kurios), is used in the same sense in which it is often in the Scriptures, to denote master or owner. The idea which this is designed to illustrate is, that the condition of the Jews before the coming of the Messiah was inferior in many respects to what the condition of the friends of God would be under him - as inferior as the condition of an heir was before he was of age, to what it would be when he should enter on his inheritance. (Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible)

Br. Ron,I don't have time today, but I will contemplate all that you have written. Thankyou.This next question is not only to Br. Ron, but to all.How does the "faith of Jesus," relate to one having the "testimony of Jesus?"Rev. 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” In ChristJeff