What is the place of Tithe for the new testament believer. As a christian I see my finances as God's own and I try to please God with it. However, I don't really stick to the 10% tithing to the Church. I'm I really pleasing God by not being consistent with the tithing?
Do you circumcise your male child on the 8th day?
The Lord says He will have mercy and not sacrifice.
Please do as you are led to do. Dry sacrifice does not help our walk with God; But heart-felt sacrifice as a token of worship, reverence, praise, love etc. is good.
Seek God on the matter. If He leads you to give 10%, do so. If He leads you to give sporadically, please do so. There is freedom where the Spirit of the Lord is.
Anen to Dkights post. Read .2 Cor.8-9. Good guide to New Testament giving.
Blaine
Look at Matthew 23:23. Jesus says,"What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest income from your herb gardens, but you ignore the more important aspects of the law--justice, mercy, and faith. You should tithe, yes, but do not neglect the more important things". I think Jesus calls us to do more than tithe. Like in Matthew 19:21 where He says, "If you want to be perfect, go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." He didn't talk much about the tithe, but He did talk much about giving to the needy. I'd say, pray on it. Give what you think the Holy Spirit is prompting you to give to your church. I know Malachi 3:10 is in the OT, but I know it to be true in my life and the lives of others. And just because it is in the OT doesn't mean we shouldn't obey. Just look at what Jesus says in Matthew 5:17-18.
giving is mandatory... you can't out give God.
loving is mandatory... you can't out love God.
Although you can try!
God bless,
Lisa
Let the Spirit lead you in the matter. 10% is just a number.
Jesus told the rich young ruler to give it all away and come follow Him. The question is, are you willing to give it all away and follow Him, what ever that may look like?
If not, then 10% will not matter anyway...
10% is just a number
No my friend, 10% is a direct command from your Creator.
Remember? the one who created heaven and earth; yes him.
When the creator issued this command, he did not ask anybody's opinion on the matter. As a matter of fact he even made us a promise to bless us beyond our wildest dreams.
- Malachi 3:10 -
Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.
What more can we ask for?
theEphah,
Do you follow the whole law? All 613 commandments? Remember, these are direct commandments of the Lord...
No my friend, 10% is a direct command from your Creator.
It is also a command that you circumcise your male child on the 8th day. Do you do this? If so, why? If not, why not?
Why do you question me about righteousness? There is only one who is Perfect and that is Yahweh.
Our Savior said "If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." Matthew 19:17
That should settle the matter right? But mankind wants to do it his own way. We know better don't we.
theEphah.
So either you obey, or you do not. Which is it theEphah? Do you obey the commandments?
When you make bold statements that it is a direct command of the Lord and we must obey, you should be able to back it up by saying that you obey the commandments of the Lord.
Simple
So either you obey, or you do not. Which is it theEphah? Do you obey the commandments?
Do you wanna argue just for the sake of arguing?
Did our Savior ask us to keep the commandments or not? (Matthew 19:17)
You don't have to obey any of the commandments, but don't lie about it either.
Why would I have a conversation with you about something you completely reject? What would that profit me?
http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/
Download the pdf and READ it.
theEphah,
ok... You first responded to something I said. I asked you a question in return. Its called a conversation.
theEphah, you said,
"You don't have to obey any of the commandments, but don't lie about it either.
Why would I have a conversation with you about something you completely reject?"
First off my friend. This is very close to bearing false witness against someone. You claim that I am a liar, then you claim I reject the commandments, which you have zero proof over. What have I lied about?
Secondly. You make bold statements that you obey the tithe commandment, but when asked if you obey all of the commandments, you get defensive and start throwing out accusations.
theEphah. If you wish to make statements about obeying the commandments, then that is great. There is an opening for a new pharisee up the street.
If you want to dive deeper into an understanding about the Lord, then asking and answering questions that can test and challange your faith "profits" not only you, but others as well.
If you do not wish to answer questions, so be it. But know that if you make bold statements as fact, know that others will challange you, pro or con.
theEphah wrote:
Why do you question me about righteousness? There is only one who is Perfect and that is Yahweh.Our Savior said "If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." Matthew 19:17
Matthew 22.37-40
[quote Ephah]]Do you wanna argue just for the sake of arguing?
Did our Savior ask us to keep the commandments or not? (Matthew 19:17)
He did not ask Christians to keep the Mosaic Laws, these comments were not in any shape or form directed toward Christians, the New Covenant did not even exist when He said this.
Jesus addressed this comment to a young rich Jew and not to me nor to you. There was no New Covenant when Jesus spoke these words, and all Jews were exclusively under the Mosaic Law, with its' 613 commandments.
But As Christians, we believe the Book of Hebrews which states:
Heb 7:11-22
"11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?
12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place A CHANGE OF LAW also."
i BELIEVE YOU MISSED THIS FACT ABOUT THE CHANGE OF LAW FROM THE LD COVENANT TO THE NEW COVENANT!
"13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. 15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is attested of Him,
"YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER
ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK."
18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19(for the Law made nothing perfect), ..."
Ephah, do you understand Verse 18 and portion of 19 above.
The former commandment is the Mosaic Law, which exist under the temporary order of Levi, and God set the Mosaic Law aside because of its weakness and uselessness, for the Mosaic Law made nothing perfect!
And that it HAS BEEN REPLACED BY GOD WITH A BETTER COVENANT.
"19 ...and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. 20 And inasmuch as it was not without an oath 21(for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him,
"THE LORD HAS SWORN
AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND,
'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER'");
22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. NASU
Wow! The New Covenant established by Jesus is the guarantee of a better Covenant than the Mosaic Covenant with its' 613 laws, including the 10 commandments that everyone talks about.
If you are still in doubt abut the above, read this:
Heb 8:7-13
Verse 7 (A New Covenant)
For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,
"8. BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10 "FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11 "AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,'
FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME,
FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12 "FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."
13 When He said, " A new covenant," He has made the first [the Mosaic Covenant] obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
NASU
So Ephah, why do you still think that we who are under the NEW COVENANT by which Jesus saves us, that we are also under the Law of the Old Mosaic Covenant that God made obsolete because it was useless and worthless. You must choose one or the other. Death by being under the Mosaic Law, or eternal life if you moved under God's grace and mercy by embracing the New Covenant of Jesus Christ. This is truly a gift from God to us. We do not earn it with our works, that none may boast.
See also Zechariah 11: 7-14. Prediction that God will annihilate the Mosaic Covenant.
As for the topic question, Tithing is not mandatory, but generosity has great benefit, and choose your charitable giving wisely. When you can not afford to give much money, you may give in service. And we all can give to others in witness by our loving actions, deeds, and kind and good words.
---ArtB-- lower your tone, all those caps are hurting my eyes, thanks.
Fact 1:
(Matthew 19:17 "If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
Did our Savior ask us to keep the commandments or not? A simple Yes or No will work, you don't have to write an essay.
theEphah said, "Did our Savior ask us to keep the commandments or not? A simple Yes or No will work, you don't have to write an essay."
Yes He did.
Now a question for you theEphah...
Do YOU keep the commandments?
If Jesus had preached on tithing in the sermon on the mount, this is what I think He may have said:
"You have heard the prophets say to give 10% of your possessions to the Lord. But I tell you to sell all you have, give away all to the poor and follow me. For the earth and the fullness thereof belong to the Lord, and all you have is not yours; It belongs to Him who commands the stars."
What good is it to say you have never fallen into adultery when you constantly and actively lust after women? Similarly, what good is tithing if in your heart, your attitude towards earthly possessions is that of a pagan? Rather, Christians should know and behave as if all they own belongs to God; down to the last penny. whether or not the 10% is given religiously. That is not to say that the commandment is to be trashed. But there is a standard higher than the standard of giving 10% - it is the attitude of the heart.
PS
If your posts range in the thousands, you should be knowing by now that anything and everything you post on this website can and will be debated.
theEphah wrote:
Did our Savior ask us to keep the commandments or not?
If you have a son, did you circumcise him on the 8th day as commanded in the Scriptures?
I see a danger here. The danger is a rejection of the gospel of Jesus Christ. To imply law keeping of any type is a rejection of the cross of Christ. It is a rejection of Christ him self. Paul defined the gospel in 1 Got.15 as the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The gospel is rooted in the person and work of Jesus Christ. We are saved by faith in Jesus Chest. We are sanctified by faith in Jesus Christ.
I say to you that man is not saved or sanctified by law but by faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus taught this in John's gospel and Paul expounded it in his letters, most notedly Romans and Galatians.
Some of you in this forum are rejecting the gospel of grace. Some of you need to ask yourselves if you believe in Jesus Christ. If you come into this forum boasting of your own righteousness then that will condemn you. Your own righteousness will be ad filthy rags.
I implore you turn to Jesus Christ and believe in him. For only Jesus can save you.
Blaine Scogin
Dlight said, "If your posts range in the thousands, you should be knowing by now that anything and everything you post on this website can and will be debated."
I agree with you fully, hence the "back and forth" in a conversation.
Why is this so hard for some to understand? If someone wants to make statements without a reply back, just say so. But if you reply to a posting of someone, expect a reply back from that person. Maybe even answer the question posed to you?.?.?.
[quote by theEphah]on 2012/1/6 6:41:28---ArtB-- lower your tone, all those caps are hurting my eyes, thanks.
Fact 1:
(Matthew 19:17 "If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
Did our Savior ask us to keep the commandments or not? A simple Yes or No will work, you don't have to write an essay.
Simply answering 'no' gives you wiggle room to continue pursuing your error.
My first two very sort paragraphs says 'NO' with clarity.
The rest of my post confirms that the view I expressed is correct and consistent with the actual Scriptures when taken in context.
I read the posts this thread by King Jimmy, DLight, Martyr, Christ is Lord. Miccah, and David G. I am in agreement with their expressed views on tithing.
And I also agree with David Arnold.
I'm not sure the meaning of Lysa's point in her first post, but completely agree with Lysa's 2nd post with respect to the Royal Law of Love.
NO ONE, absolutely NO ONE pays the Biblical tithe today.
THE FIRST TITHE
Leviticus 27:30-33 defines this tithe as a tenth of crops and animals in herds and flocks.
Numbers 18 gives the ordinances, or instructions, for this tithe, and commands this tithe be taken to the Levites.
Purpose of this tithe: to support the Levitical Priesthood.
SECOND TITHE
Deuteronomy 14:22-27: aka The Festival Tithe - a tenth of crops, plus add to that the firstborn animals, and take for the yearly feast.
Purpose of this tithe: “that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always”
THIRD TITHE
Deuteronomy 14:28-29: aka The Three-Year Tithe aka The Poor Tithe - a tenth of crops, kept at home, and invite the Levites, widows, orphans, stranger to eat.
Purpose of this tithe: to feed the poor.
Now, tell me. Which of the above three tithes commanded by God does anyone follow today?
The ONLY people in the Old Testament that were commanded to tithe were those who INHERITED THE PROMISED LAND WITH EVERYTHING ON IT. They got the land, house, animals, crops, etc. ALL FREE AND CLEAR. No mortgage payment or rent to pay. And THEY were commanded to tithe on the crops and animals and take it to the Levites who INHERITED the tithe INSTEAD OF the promised land with everything on it. No one else tithed. Wage earners did not tithe. Jesus did not tithe as a carpenter. Paul did not tithe as a tent maker. Peter did not tithe as a fisherman.
[quote Miccah on 2012/1/6 7:11:10]
theEphah said, "Did our Savior ask us to keep the commandments or not? A simple Yes or No will work, you don't have to write an essay."
Yes He did.
Miccah, Give me one example of Jesus preaching to non-Jews to keep the Mosaic Covenant, only with such evidence will I believe what you wrote related thereto is true.
ArtB. I never said that Jesus preached to non-Jews to keep the Mosaic Covenant. I only agreed that He said to keep the commandments.
What are these commandments? It is all sumed up into two commandments...
I was not trying to be misleading in my posting. Please forgive me if I was.
That's a very good point GaryArnold. It continually surprises me to see how many think they can fulfill a requirement of the law that is literally impossible to fulfill even if it were necessary.
Those who promote tithing as mandatory are in big trouble if they've been rounding off the side growth of their hair or trimming the edges of their beards as well. I also hope none of their clothing's fabric is composed of anything but 100% of the same material.
Miccah, thanks for the clarification.
I have tried to set up some weekly/monthly tithe plan and every time I do, it doesn't sit well with me. I have found that spontaneous giving works well with me, at the spur of the moment, or when a need arises it's easy to fork over whatever I feel to give. In that I really feel good about giving, but the 10percent thingy, I personally have trouble with it. I could do it, but I sense this conviction that God doesn't want me to do that.
Everyone is different. What I have observed over the years in my life, God doesn't seem to want me to do what everyone else is doing. It was quite frustrating, but I have learned to accept the fact that God doesn't want my tithe to be 10percent, He wants all of me first everything else is just gravy.
John 10:4 When he hath put forth all his own, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Either one has God's Spirit and hears His voice or one does not. Or men have sown confusion and others think they cannot hear God's voice. So, men make up rules and regulations to follow to compensate for not being able to hear His voice. They create a "Christian morality" in lieu of His voice and His law which should be written on their hearts.
Does the Spirit of God dwell in you is the only question you need to ask. Stop concerning yourself with outward laws. Is His law written in your heart and do you hear His voice?
To the Christian, there is no law to be concerned about except the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.
Where the Spirit dwells, there is no law. (Gal 5:23)
"One of the essential rules of the Christian life is never to ask a non-Christian to conduct himself like a Christian. If grace really renews a person; if the Christian life is already evidence of the life of someone who is in Christ; if obedience to the Christian ethic is the loving response of a recipient of grace to Him who has shown His love by bestowing grace, then how can one ask a man who has not received, or who did not know that he was under grace, to act as though . . . as though his person were renewed, as though he had experienced grace bestowed upon him, as though he knew that he was the object of God's love? The obligation placed upon him is nothing but restraint. The morality to which he submits can only be based upon the fear of punishment, and God becomes then the great condemner. That is what regularly happens in so-called Christian societies." (Jacques Ellul - To Will and To Do. Pilgrim Press. 1969. pg. 104)
It's not called "mandatory" - it's called Loving The LORD your GOD with all of your heart, mind, soul and strength and putting His mind above our own.
The Holy Spirit is behind "giving" 110%.
Mar 12:41-44 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much. And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: for all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.
If you're led of His Spirit - The Spirit of the Law and not the letter, you'll be a cheerful giver and Just 10% will seem a crime to you, considering what The Gospel cost Him and seeing the exceeding needs out there.
Jas 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Matthew 25:31-46
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
2Co 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; *not grudgingly,or of necessity*: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
2Co 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
2Co 9:9 (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.
2Co 9:10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;)
2Co 9:11 Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.
2Co 9:12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;
2Co 9:13 Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men;
2Co 9:14 And by their prayer for you, which long after you for the exceeding grace of God in you.
2Co 9:15 Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable Gift.
What exactly is the "Spirit of the law" of tithing?
Deuteronomy 14:22-29 (KJV)
22Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
23And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
24And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
25Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
26And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
27And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.
28At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:
29And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.
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