"...you might be a legalist"

"...you might be a legalist"

The comedian, Jeff Foxworthy, has gained worldwide fame for his "...you might be a redneck" jokes. Here is a take-off on his routine, referring instead to "...you might be a legalist."

If you think the 10 commandments are still authoritative for Christians today...then you might be a legalist.

If you think that abstinence is a virtue...then you might be a legalist.

If you think that what our country needs is better moral values...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever thought that God's Law should be imposed upon Americans as the law of the land...then you might be a legalist.

If you think the Law represents God...then you might be a legalist.

If you think that God's Law can effect right living...then you might be a legalist.

If you think that socially-imposed conformity to ethical rules is valuable...then you might be a legalist.

If you think that a man can keep God's principles and precepts...then you might be a legalist.

If you think that its only right that everyone gets what he works for...then you might be a legalist.

If you think that there is a right answer and right action for every circumstance (if you could just take the time to figure it out)...then you might be a legalist.

If you think that obedience is doing what the rules indicate...then you might be a legalist.

If you think that what people think about you is important...then you might be a legalist.

If you think that most people just don't measure up...then you might be a legalist.

If you feel frustrated and defeated in that you just don't seem to be able to do it all right and perfect...then you might be a legalist.

If you are burdened by self-condemnation for your failures in life...then you might be a legalist.

If you're afraid that people will get out of hand if there aren't clear-cut rules...then you might be a legalist.

If you believe that the King James Version is the only real Bible...then you might be a legalist.

If you feel guilty for not coming to church services every Sunday...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever felt guilty for only putting $1 in the offering plate on Sunday...then you might be a legalist.

If you think that tithing is the standard for Christian giving...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever felt naughty or sinful for playing a game of cards or rolling some dice...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever felt guilty for driving up in a new car, or buying a new dress, or even a new home...then you might be a legalist.

If you've every worried about what others were going to think about your new hair-do...then you might be a legalist.

If you've every thought that you can tell a person's spirituality by the way they look and how they dress (their swimsuit, leotard, skirt length, etc.)...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever tried to impose your perspective of modesty on another...then you might be a legalist.

If you men have ever felt condemned for having taken a second look at a beautiful woman (in a short skirt)...then you might be a legalist.

If you think that Christians shouldn't practice birth control...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever taken off jewelry or wiped off make-up to capitulate to another's religious scruples...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever hidden your TV in the closet to conceal it from another legalist...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever judged another by the length or color of their hair, or the number or placement of their earrings or tattoos ...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever looked down upon another for their living arrangements...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever thought that divorced people have somehow forfeited their right to spiritual honor and leadership...then you might be a legalist.

If you've thought that the way your kids turn out would be the basis of your evaluation as a Christian parent...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever felt superior to, or looked down on, or were prejudiced about people of other races, or condemned interracial marriage...then you might be a legalist.

If you've every felt out of place in the video store wondering who might walk in and what they might think...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever been concerned that someone might see you having a glass of wine (or even a beer) with your dinner...then you might be a legalist.

If you think that people who smoke tobacco are disgusting and sinful...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever told your kids not to do something because other Christians might see them do it, and it would impinge upon your reputation..then you might be a legalist.

If you've looked down your nose at those in more liberal denominations...then you might be a legalist.

If you've every thought yourself pretty tight and right with God because of your correct doctrine and moral behavior...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever thought that to associate with those who think different than you is sinful compromizing...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever thought that those who don't believe in "once saved, always saved" are unorthodox heretics...then you might be a legalist.

If you think that baptism by immersion under water is the only way to be right with God...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever thought that those who don't believe in a pre-tribulation, premillennial second coming of Jesus are misguided heretics...then you might be a legalist.

If you get all excited about prophetic speculations about the future...then you might be a legalist.

If you think that the visible expression of spiritual gifts is evidence of one's spirituality...then you might be a legalist.

If you have ever thought that God would be more pleased with you if you were willing to go to Africa as a missionary...then you might be a legalist.

If you've ever tried to cover up your flaws, and represent yourself as something you aren't...then you might be a legalist.

If some of these exposes make you uncomfortable, raise your dander a little, or cause you take offense...then you might be a legalist.

If you want to challenge and debate some of these issues...then you might be a legalist...because legalists love to fight and feud.

If some of these have hit you right where it hurts...then you might be a legalist...

BUT aren't we all, to some degree?

Wow,

I feel convicted already. :D

Question though,

Isn't there some biblical support that goes against some of what Foxworthy is saying?

In Christ,

- Michael Liao

I find this list very misleading and potentially dangerous. For example, "If you think that abstinence is a virtue...then you might be a legalist." Is the opposite a virtue? The opposite is extremely dangerous, health threatening, etc.

Methinks this is an unwise post.

ginnyrose

The little bit that I read doesn't sound too biblical.

Pilgrim, I think it would be in your best interest and others' if you would delete this piece! It is jesting and not convenient! It is making fun of sin and therefore the entire thing is contaminated.

I am disappointed you would consider this funny or even edifying. There is nothing wrong with humor but there is everything wrong with jesting.

You sure you did not feel a check in your spirit before you posted it?

THIS IS NOT FUNNY

Here are some hard hitting questions to ask yourself to find out if you are a legalist. Check out #4 & 10!!!

-------------------------------

Take this quiz to see if you qualify as a legalist:

Could you be a legalist?

Answer yes or no to the following questions:

1) God's love for me depends on what I do.

2) Meeting the expectations of others, especially those in my congregation or in positions of authority, are paramount.

3) Moral and ethical questions are usually black and white and only made into fuzzy shades of gray by hand-wringing, bleeding-heart types.

4) I try hard to obey God and it irritates me that others think they can get away with avoiding the same level of dedication.

5) I fall short because I don't have enough faith, or because I haven't prayed enough, or because I just need to be a better person.

6) God is predisposed to be angry with me because I am a sinner. My main goal in life is to try to gain God's favor by doing things that will impress him.

7) My sense of spiritual well-being is linked to a Christian leader or membership in my church rather than a personal relationship with God.

8) I tell my children not to do something in church or around other Christian families that I allow in my home.

9) I believe my church is God's true church and that most other Christians may be sincere, but are sincerely wrong.

10) The exterior choices a person makes in what they wear, hairstyle, piercings, tattoos, etc. is a clear indication of that person's character.

11) I sometimes worry that people might take advantage of grace if it's preached too much —people might think they can do anything they want.

12) After being around Christians for a while I feel drained —weary of putting up a false front.

13) When I happen to miss a service or activity of my church I feel guilty.

14) I will likely get into heaven, even though I'm far from perfect, because I have tried to be a basically good person and God will take that into account.

Quiz by Greg Albrecht http://www.ptm.org/

----------------------

I just signed up for an online subscription to the "Plain Truth" magazine!!! It's free.

MichaelLiao wrote:
Question though,

Isn't there some biblical support that goes against some of what Foxworthy is saying?

Foxworthy didn't write it, i believe Greg Albrecht used Foxworthy's style to get his point across... and it seems that it worked.

God bless,
Lisa

I don't think it worked! If you want to be funny you should know the right meaning of the word to start with. This guy does not - in my opinion.

Compare that to this one:

…You might be a Dispensationalist

1. If more than one of your children is named Ryrie, Chafer or Darby…
2. If you get excited when you see a sentence with a parenthesis…
3. If you license plate reads: “IM PR TRB”…
4. If you believe the musical “Seven Brides for Seven Brothers” contains an apocalyptic message…
5. If your bedroom, office and car all have sky-lights…
6. If you have ever stated: “Well, Lindsey said…”
7. If there are more underlined sentences in your copy of “Late Great Planet Earth” than in your Bible…
8. If you own a copy of “Late Great Planet Earth”…
9. If you consider Tommy Ice an authority on anything…
10. If your Pastor gives a sermon exclusively from the New Scofield Bible study notes…
11. If you’ve eve had more than three candidates for the AntiChrist at one time…
12. If you think Saddam Hussein’s name means 666 in more than three languages…
13. If you took Hal Lindsey’s advice twenty years ago not to make any long term plans and are now broke, uneducated and in a dead-end job…
14. If bar-codes make you nervous…
15. If you’ve only been a Christian for one year and your Pastor has preached through the book of Revelation more than two times…
16. If you make sure there’s at least one non-Christian pilot on every flight you take…
17. If your church has adopted the 60’s song “Up, Up and Away” as a hymn…
18. If you think the Ryrie Study Bible notes are part of the original autographs…
19. If you’ve already forgotten the last wrongly predicted date of the rapture…
20. If you already know the next predicted date for the rapture…
21. If you’re still suspicious about Gorbachev’s birthMARK…
22. If you believe that Grant Jeffrey, Tommy Ice, Dave Hunt or Hal Lindsey is a theologian…
23. If you know the location of the European Central Bank…
24. If you’ve ruined more than five records trying to find backward messages…
25. If you count trampoline aerobics as “Rapture Practice” in your morning devotions…
26. If you think Texe Marrs’ books belong in the theology section of your local Christian bookstore…
27. If you never stand on your head out of the fear that the rapture will send you the wrong direction…
28. If your baby’s stroller has a break-away sun bonnet…
29. If you always chew gum so your ears won’t pop at the rapture…
30. If you can name more dispensations than commandments…
31. If Clarence Larkin is your favorite artist…
32. If you know who Clarence Larkin is…
33. If your children’s favorite game is Pre-Trib-Hide-and-Seek, “Now you see me, now you don’t”…
34. If you think the four millennial positions are: Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Post-Trib and Liberal…
35. If your favorite party game is “Pin the tail on the Beast”…
36. If your favorite CrackerJacks prize is a temporary tattoo of the Mark of the Beast…
37. If you think John Walvoord, CI Scofield and J N Darby are some of the Church Fathers…
38. If your favorite one-volume commentary on the Bible is on “The Bible Code”… (Jon B.)
39. If your favorite multi-volume commentary on this morning’s newspaper is the Bible…(Jane D.

by roadsign

I don't think it worked!

God bless,
Lisa

Interesting list. I would like to see what type of theology the writer of this list believes in.

To me, it seems like the writer may follow the "Love Wins" theology.

Quote: "I think it did! My pastor/mentor from years ago said, "Throw a rock into a pack of dogs and the one that got hit will holler the loudest." Well, a rock was thrown into a pack of legalists and they hollered. Just saying"

I don't think I want a ministry of throwing rocks!! Who do we think we are? Please do not compare the saints to a pack of dogs!

Well I think we have to ask if this thread is edifying to the saints??

I may or may not agree with any of the points put in the list in the first post, but that is not the issue. My spirit is grieved at the offhand way of throwing glib statements out that could offend and stir up strife. Please be clear I am not offended by any of them, but it does not sit right with me as being helpful to anyone.

"Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, leading to edification.....Therefore receive one another just a Christ also received us, to the glory of God."

"For the law is fulfilled in one word, even this 'you shall love your neighbor as yourself'. But beware if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another"

Heydave wrote:
I don't think I want a ministry of throwing rocks!! Who do we think we are? Please do not compare the saints to a pack of dogs!

I am sorry that I offended you.
God bless you,
Lisa

Interesting list. I would like to see what type of theology the writer of this list believes in.

To me, it seems like the writer may follow the "Love Wins" theology.

This sounds suspiciously possible. As I said, he doesn’t have a handle on the meaning of legalism. I’ll tell you what a legalist is:

A LEGALIST IS THE ONE TO THE RIGHT OF YOU. (source unknown)

Hope that clarifies everything,

Diane

Hey roadsign.

Just to clarify, I was speaking about the first list. Your list made me smile. :-)

abstinence is not a joke. neither is birth control.

contraceptive pills kill more babies than do abortions, and the church is completely silent on it. you hear me? contraceptive pills are abortive and KILL babies.

Yes, Salvation is by faith alone. Yes, Salvation is everlasting life. But several of these "jokes" are disgusting.

Abstinence is NOTHING to joke about.

This list is just worldly, and it doesn't seem like whoever wrote it knows much of God or his ways.

AMEN, AMEN to this,

"The danger is not so much from the the false prophets of the prosperity gospel. I see the greater danger coming from modern day Judiazers who advocate law keeping over the gospel of grace.

Any law that denies the finished work of Christ on the cross and not rooted in faith on Jrsus Christ is a false gospel."

I know it is salvation by faith, not salvation from turning from sins, and I know that "he who has begun a good work in me will complete it til the day of Christ Jesus" - it is eternal security for those whom God has saved.

Greetings Pilgrim

I have read through your post here. I will begin my reply by being honest I do not really know Jeff Foxworthy or his brand of humor so some of this post may be lost on me. I was not at all sure if you were trying to be funny or not????
So any way I felt after reading them that I would go to the Lord in prayer and then just see what He laid on my heart to share with you all here...Some of these points I did not feel led by the Lord to respond to, others did touch my heart and I felt compelled to share with you as if you were being serious. So here is what the Lord has shown me:
__________
you wrote:If you think the 10 commandments are still authoritative for Christians today...then you might be a legalist.
__________
My reply:
I am not sure what you mean by "authoritative" but I feel this way... God gave us HIS son Jesus and the command to love one another. Seems like if I love another then the ten commandments pretty much take care of themselves. After all I would not kill,lie to, steal from, or intentionally hurt someone I love...
____________

You wrote:If you think that abstinence is a virtue...then you might be a legalist
___________________

my reply:
I am not sure if abstinence is a "virture" or not would have to really look up that word and understand its meaning more clearly. But I do believe God cares very much about remaining pure and free from sexual immorality. He spoke to it often and so did the disciples so I am pretty sure it matters.
______________

You wrote:If you think that a man can keep God's principles and precepts...then you might be a legalist.
___________

my reply:
While I do not believe man can "keep" Gods principles or precepts alone I absolutely believe we can in CHRIST JESUS!After all Jesus did say "If you love Me you will obey ME"
_____

you wrote:If you've ever tried to impose your perspective of modesty on another...then you might be a legalist.
___________

my reply:
I do believe each one knows that there is a standard and that standard is Gods. If we are being honest a women know when she is dressing in such a way to entice a mans attention...Having said that I believe that if you wear an article of clothing that causes a brother/sister to stumble in lust then you are in sin. Again this is an issue that God speaks to so He does care about modesty...don't you think we should too??
_________

you wrote:If you men have ever felt condemned for having taken a second look at a beautiful woman (in a short skirt)...then you might be a legalist.
___________

my reply:
I guess my response to this is why would you be taking another look at the woman in the short skirt? What is the motivation of your heart for doing so??? After all God looks at the motivation of the heart, He says so. Besides if a brother in Christ does and feels conviction about it why would that make him a legalist?? After all doesn't the Holy Spirit gives us conviction so that we might repent of sin and walk closer with the Lord?
____________

you wrote:If you've ever looked down upon another for their living arrangements...then you might be a legalist.

__________

my reply:
while I do not look down on another for their living arrangements I do and will call them on it if they claim the name of Jesus and are in sin. After all its not my standard, its Gods and He has some very specific things to say about this topic.
__________

You wrote:If you think that people who smoke tobacco are disgusting and sinful...then you might be a legalist.
__________

my reply:
I do not think people who smoke tabacco are disgusting but I do believe they are doing something that will eventually cause them great harm. My dad died of lung cancer and because of his tabacco use he was taken away at a relatively younger age. I don't know if that is sin or not but I do not think it was what God would have wanted for him.
___________

you wrote:If some of these have hit you right where it hurts...then you might be a legalist..
_________

my reply:
While I do not want to debate, and I am not upset, or angry, I did feel led to share what the Lord placed on my heart as others have done :)

Honestly God does speak to many of these things and if sharing them with others makes me a legalist in the eyes of man well that is ok. Just like I would hope another would share Gods truth with me in love I seek to do also. In some of these points I have no issue with being called a legalists when I know from Gods own Words that I, by His strength am walking in His standard...My faith and trust is in HIM.

Still not really sure the point of the thread but perhaps you will come back and share what the motivation of your heart was when you posted? What was God laying upon your heart with this topic and thread??

God Bless
mary

And why are people getting offended over Pilgrim's thread? Could some legalistic toes be stepped on?

What I find scary in this forum is some who are legalistic to the max.

Greetings Pilgrim

I have read through your post here. I will begin my reply by being honest I do not really know Jeff Foxworthy or his brand of humor so some of this post may be lost on me. I was not at all sure if you were trying to be funny or not????
So any way I felt after reading them that I would go to the Lord in prayer and then just see what He laid on my heart to share with you all here...Some of these points I did not feel led by the Lord to respond to, others did touch my heart and I felt compelled to share with you as if you were being serious. So here is what the Lord has shown me:

Hi MaryJane,

Yes, I was being quite serious. There is no connection with Jeff Foxworthy except in style of prose. Certainly not in content. He would simply state that "you might be a redneck if..." and then fill in the blanks. So that is as far as it goes. Just style of delivering the message not content. So, let's continue. I did not write these but I thought they were worthy of thinking about since they made me think, too.

__________
you wrote:If you think the 10 commandments are still authoritative for Christians today...then you might be a legalist.
__________
My reply:
I am not sure what you mean by "authoritative" but I feel this way... God gave us HIS son Jesus and the command to love one another. Seems like if I love another then the ten commandments pretty much take care of themselves. After all I would not kill,lie to, steal from, or intentionally hurt someone I love...

I was thinking about this one, too and came to the conclusion that what is supremely authoritative to Christians is God's Spirit. Christ in us the hope of glory. Many lift the Bible (the letter) above the Spirit of God (bibliolatry). But Jesus told us that the Letter kills and it is the Spirit that gives life. Of course the Spirit and the Letter will agree, but the Letter by itself will kill (legalism). I think you are right on regarding this one. If we love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength and our neighbor as ourself thenwe will not only obey the 10 commandments but go even further (Spirit of the letter) and not covet, commit adultery and transgress the other commandments in our heart. So, I think you got that one.
____________

You wrote:If you think that abstinence is a virtue...then you might be a legalist
___________________

my reply:
I am not sure if abstinence is a "virtue" or not would have to really look up that word and understand its meaning more clearly. But I do believe God cares very much about remaining pure and free from sexual immorality. He spoke to it often and so did the disciples so I am pretty sure it matters.

This was a little harder for me and I had to think about it a lot. He did not say whether he was talking about abstinence in marriage or outside of it. And then I realized that he may not be talking about sexual relations but rather food, since the Bible talks about the Kingdom of God not being "meat nor drink" but righteousness, peace and joy. So, I had to consider everything.

Besides that, the Bible does talk about "virtue" and even in the context of "temperance". 2 Peter 1:5-6.

So, I considered my own actions through the years and actions of others and I have seen people who thought they were virtuous just because they were able to go without certain things for long periods of time and thought that others should do the same. In this respect then, I think it would be legalism to tell others that they have to abstain from this and that if they want to be spiritual.

Of course all of our spirituality comes from abiding in Christ and not from any formulas, creeds or rules that we set for ourselves.

To be fair, I am still thinking about this one. I believe the author wrote this to make us think, not to replace the Bible or the Spirit of God. Let's look at your next comment.

______________

You wrote:If you think that a man can keep God's principles and precepts...then you might be a legalist.
___________

my reply:
While I do not believe man can "keep" Gods principles or precepts alone I absolutely believe we can in CHRIST JESUS!After all Jesus did say "If you love Me you will obey ME"

So, since we are not always in Christ Jesus (walking in the Spirit) then it would be legalistic to tell people that we always keep God's principles and precepts, right? And make people think that they have to be like you. This is what the Pharisees did. They talked the talk but did not walk it and Jesus said, "Do what they say but not as they do".
_____

you wrote:If you've ever tried to impose your perspective of modesty on another...then you might be a legalist.
___________

my reply:
I do believe each one knows that there is a standard and that standard is Gods. If we are being honest a women know when she is dressing in such a way to entice a mans attention...Having said that I believe that if you wear an article of clothing that causes a brother/sister to stumble in lust then you are in sin. Again this is an issue that God speaks to so He does care about modesty...don't you think we should too??

As I thought about this, I realized that the operative word in this statement was "impose". Impose is a rather strong word that connotates "forcing someone to accept something".

Christendom has taken the Bible and made a religion out of it and we know that Christianity is not religion. Christianity is Christ and Christ is Christianity. However, Christianity has taken the Bible and created an ethos or morality out of the letter and many have missed the living, dynamic spirit of Christ.

I like what Jacques Ellul says:

"One of the essential rules of the Christian life is never to ask a non-Christian to conduct himself like a Christian. If grace really renews a person; if the Christian life is already evidence of the life of someone who is in Christ; if obedience to the Christian ethic is the loving response of a recipient of grace to Him who has shown His love by bestowing grace, then how can one ask a man who has not received, or who did not know that he was under grace, to act as though . . . as though his person were renewed, as though he had experienced grace bestowed upon him, as though he knew that he was the object of God's love? The obligation placed upon him is nothing but restraint. The morality to which he submits can only be based upon the fear of punishment, and God becomes then the great condemner. That is what regularly happens in so-called Christian societies." (Jacques Ellul - To Will and To Do. Pilgrim Press. 1969. pg. 104)

We have to be careful to always walk in grace and remember the grace that Jesus Christ has shown us. Jesus does not impose on us. Jesus does not bring change to us by "imposition" and we certainly don't want others to change just because we imposed something on them, right? We want people to know the love of God as demonstrated in His Son. To have a relationship with Christ is to know LIFE.

_________

you wrote:If you men have ever felt condemned for having taken a second look at a beautiful woman (in a short skirt)...then you might be a legalist.
___________

my reply:
I guess my response to this is why would you be taking another look at the woman in the short skirt? What is the motivation of your heart for doing so??? After all God looks at the motivation of the heart, He says so. Besides if a brother in Christ does and feels conviction about it why would that make him a legalist?? After all doesn't the Holy Spirit gives us conviction so that we might repent of sin and walk closer with the Lord?

Boy, I could sure use some help with this one. I don't know what he is getting at. Is it the word "condemned" instead of "convicted"? Does that mean if we see a brother taking a second look that we can judge what took place in his heart? Even you just said "what is the motivation of your heart for doing so"?

Is he trying to say that if we are being condemnded by our own reliance on "performance" that it could be legalism? I don't know who the author of this is or I would email him to ask him what he was specificaly thinking of. This article is all over the net. For now, I can only think my own thoughts and talk it over with others. I know one thing, I should not judge because if a man did that who is to say that he did not repent in a split-second, too. If we stop walking in love and extending grace to each one like Jesus does, then we will be a church of Pharisees always watching each others behaviour and actions.

I did find this brother's treatise on Legalism as I was looking for the author of this article and found his views quite helpful.
http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/legalism2.htm

But, don't you think if you are walking close to the Lord in His grace and love that His Spirit will tell you if you are being legalistic? Because Legalism is a Relationship killer, right? So, I have confidence in God's Spirit that He knows how to keep us in right relationship with Him and others.

____________

you wrote:If you've ever looked down upon another for their living arrangements...then you might be a legalist.

__________

my reply:
while I do not look down on another for their living arrangements I do and will call them on it if they claim the name of Jesus and are in sin. After all its not my standard, its Gods and He has some very specific things to say about this topic..

I am glad the Lord does neither look down upon others or call them on it. He came to give us Life. His Life will lead us away from what is not good. Please remember all the sinners that Jesus engaged. I believe the only people that He "called on their sin" were those who thought they were well and had no need for a physician.
__________

You wrote:If you think that people who smoke tobacco are disgusting and sinful...then you might be a legalist.
__________

my reply:
I do not think people who smoke tabacco are disgusting but I do believe they are doing something that will eventually cause them great harm. My dad died of lung cancer and because of his tabacco use he was taken away at a relatively younger age. I don't know if that is sin or not but I do not think it was what God would have wanted for him. .

I agree that it will do them harm. And so will a lot of things we all do each day.
___________

you wrote:If some of these have hit you right where it hurts...then you might be a legalist..
_________

my reply:
While I do not want to debate, and I am not upset, or angry, I did feel led to share what the Lord placed on my heart as others have done :)

Honestly God does speak to many of these things and if sharing them with others makes me a legalist in the eyes of man well that is ok. Just like I would hope another would share Gods truth with me in love I seek to do also. In some of these points I have no issue with being called a legalists when I know from Gods own Words that I, by His strength am walking in His standard...My faith and trust is in HIM.

Still not really sure the point of the thread but perhaps you will come back and share what the motivation of your heart was when you posted? What was God laying upon your heart with this topic and thread??

God Bless
mary

Thanks for the conversation Mary. The point of the thread is the same as most threads and that is simply to converse and talk some of these things over. There is no reason to debate and this thread is not for that. I am stumpled myself on some of the statements while others I can understand quite clearly. I would love to see others try to understand what the brother or sister is trying to say when they wrote this. But, I think his/her point is made quite well, overall. That legalism alienates from the life of God and because it alienates from God it will alienate us from others.

Jesus on the other hand was out and about everyday mixing in with the sinners as well as the hypocrites. He was trying to bring them all to Him, to Life. Not by rules and regulations or telling people off, but by bring them to Himself.

On one hand they got angry with Him because He would not dance when they played their songs or He would not mourn when they played their dirge. To the Legalist Jesus is never enough.

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

John 5:40
And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Pilgrim

There should have been something here about speck-removers!

Really, I think if this guy was successful he would have had us all chuckling while secretly feeling a twinge of conviction. And we’d have fun and love each other with a heaping dose of mercy!

God, please send us some real humor!

Diane

Folks,

This is a discussion forum. Can we not treat one another as Christ treats us, with all of our warts, errors, misconceptions and waywardness?

Let's not resort to name calling. Just present your view in an intelligent and respectful way.

If more mercy and grace were shown these discussions would be more enjoyable and we could probably make more progress.

Believe the best about each other.

Kindly,
Pilgrim

theEphah,

Why will you not answer my question...

Do you keep the commandments?

Hi theEphah,

Jesus had not yet died for men so He was keeping the commandments (to fulfill the LAW) and preaching that one should keep them. Of course. He would not preach anything else since it was still Old Testament time until the NT was written in His blood.

If you look at the rest of the NT after He died and resurrected you will see that it is explained that NO ONE can keep the letter of the law or commandments. ABSOLUTELY NO ONE, not even you.

So, where does that leave you? What now is your justification?

Respectfully,
Pilgrim

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The "commandments" that we obey is the voice of the Spirit which does not contradict the Bible but is much, much more than the Bible, because the Holy Spirit gives us all personal, custom tailored if you will, guidance and instruction.

You are making the same mistake that Fundamentalists make regarding the Scriptures. Here is a quote that may make it clear to you.

"Fundamentalism stumbles at the consubstantial relation between the free continuous act of God's self-communication and the living content of what He communicates, especially when this is applied to divine revelation in and through the Holy Scriptures. It rejects the fact that revelation must be continually given and received in a living relation with God ­ i.e., it substitutes a static for a dynamic view of revelation. ...The practical and the epistemological effect of a fundamentalism of this kind is to give an infallible Bible and a set of rigid evangelical beliefs primacy over God's self-revelation which is mediated to us through the Bible. This effect is only reinforced by the regular fundamentalist identification of biblical statements about the truth with the truth itself to which they refer. ...The living reality of God's self-revelation through Jesus Christ and in the Spirit is in point of fact made secondary to the Scriptures." (Thomas F. Torrance, Reality and Evangelical Theology. Westminster Press. 1981. pgs 16,17,18).

Pilgrim wrote:So, let's continue. I did not write these but I thought they were worthy of thinking about since they made me think, too.

________

Oh thanks for clearing that up. I was under the impression that you had written these yourself. Not that it matters I guess but good to know :)

I have thought briefly about some of your responses to my replies( boy that sounds confusing doesn't it:) I would like to take a moment an just share what my first reactions were if that is alright...

_________
You wrote: This was a little harder for me and I had to think about it a lot. He did not say whether he was talking about abstinence in marriage or outside of it. And then I realized that he may not be talking about sexual relations but rather food, since the Bible talks about the Kingdom of God not being "meat nor drink" but righteousness, peace and joy. So, I had to consider everything.
__________
my reply:
You are right the author did not say specifically if he was talking about sexual immorality. He could mean anything as you mentioned such as food. I was thinking though since he does go on to mention wine, tabacco, tv ect. later that perhaps he was speaking about relations before marriage. It is kind of open ended so there is room to "fill" in the blank. I think most would assume the author was speaking about sexual immorality though.

in this same topic you wrote:So, I considered my own actions through the years and actions of others and I have seen people who thought they were virtuous just because they were able to go without certain things for long periods of time and thought that others should do the same. In this respect then, I think it would be legalism to tell others that they have to abstain from this and that if they want to be spiritual.

my reply: I do not think going with out something makes anyone spiritual. Honestly I am not even trying to be "spiritual" in my walk with CHRIST. I just want to know JESUS and seek to live in HIM. I don't think it would be legalism to share Gods loving truth with another believer where sin is an issue. If we are speaking about abstinence as in sexual relations before marriage sharing HIS truth is of great value, especially for young women. Honestly having been a teen mom myself I really wish that someone would have shared more with me concerning this matter. If abstinence is speaking about food then I think it would be wise to pray and consider the situation. If food (as in physical food for the body) is an issue in a persons life then perhaps sharing with them about gluttony could be appropriate. Of course it does matter what "abstinence" the author is speaking to.
___________

You wrote:
So, since we are not always in Christ Jesus (walking in the Spirit) then it would be legalistic to tell people that we always keep God's principles and precepts, right? And make people think that they have to be like you. This is what the Pharisees did. They talked the talk but did not walk it and Jesus said, "Do what they say but not as they do".

my reply: No we are not always walking in the Spirit but if we are His then Jesus is always with us and abiding in us. We have HIS strength and power there for us always. HE does not with draw Himself and leave us on our own, right? I did not say that I "always" keep Gods principles, I just said that He has given us all that we need in order to keep them. Just because I share with you that "Jesus gives you all that you need to love and obey Him does not mean I want to make anyone like me...I'm nothing. I want to be like JESUS and that is the standard we should be encouraging one another to don't you think???? Pointing others toward JESUS and His standard doesn't make someone a legalist at least not what I understood it to mean :)

____________

you wrote:As I thought about this, I realized that the operative word in this statement was "impose". Impose is a rather strong word that connotates "forcing someone to accept something".

Christendom has taken the Bible and made a religion out of it and we know that Christianity is not religion. Christianity is Christ and Christ is Christianity. However, Christianity has taken the Bible and created an ethos or morality out of the letter and many have missed the living, dynamic spirit of Christ.

my reply: I agree that there is a difference between lovingly sharing with another about how their immodest dress could be effecting others rather then "imposing" our belief on them. I would not force another woman to stop wearing revealing clothes if that is what she chooses to do, but I would also not expose my four young men to sit and fellowship with the woman knowing that her choices could have impact on them and their walk with CHRIST. I do not think it is a form of legalisms to share truth with another believer that their actions could cause a brother/sister to stumble. Of course we would not want someone to change just because we said so, but I do not think it unloving to share with a sister that her clothing maybe causing a brother to stumble and sin. Seems if the love of Christ is in her she would be concerned for her brother in CHRIST to don't you think???

_______________

you wrote:Boy, I could sure use some help with this one. I don't know what he is getting at. Is it the word "condemned" instead of "convicted"? Does that mean if we see a brother taking a second look that we can judge what took place in his heart? Even you just said "what is the motivation of your heart for doing so"?

my reply: The word condemned does change things I would agree. Although the way it is written it asks if the person "themselves" feels condemned. To me this does not so much speak to what others are thinking/saying but what the person themselves are thinking...that being said then of course God does not want you to feel condemnation but rather conviction over sin so that one can repent and turn from it. I think the way this was written does imply a struggle with lust, at least my husband and I both thought so and then I do still think it is a matter of the heart. Still after saying all this I will say I don't even think this one really works because it almost seems as if the author is saying its ok to go ahead and take the second look???? Very confusing....

_____________

you wrote:I am glad the Lord does neither look down upon others or call them on it. He came to give us Life. His Life will lead us away from what is not good. Please remember all the sinners that Jesus engaged. I believe the only people that He "called on their sin" were those who thought they were well and had no need for a physician.

my reply: I realize how I worded my response was very poor. I did not mean to say that we should attack another person over sin in their life but we should in love share with them that what they are doing hurts them, hurts their walk with the LORD and most importantly hurts JESUS. Yes He did come to give us life but that does not mean that we get a pass when it comes to sin...sharing with another who is claiming the name of Jesus that they are in sin is a very loving thing to do if done in Christ and can bring about healing.
_________

you wrote:I agree that it will do them harm. And so will a lot of things we all do each day.

my reply: you are correct many things we do can and will hurt us. I was just thinking the other day I wonder if all the times I have bleached my hair was such a smart thing to do??? Was that something God would have wanted me to be doing...? I do not condemn my dad or anyone else for smoking. My dad used cigarettes as a crutch they helped him get through tough times, he needed them. Did he rely on those cigarettes instead of Christ seemed like it if you listen to him talk but that is between him and God. I did not lecture him about it, I tried to share with him and point him toward Jesus as I would do with others and as I pray others who love the Lord would do for me. This is one of those time when its good to ask the person "why" they smoke the cigarettes, what is the motivation of the heart behind it?"

Thank you too for sharing your thoughts with me. I am not sure I really get the heart motivation behind the authors writing this. I know you shared that you felt they got their point across overall but I don't really see that. I still find myself wondering from whose standard was this whole thing written, Gods or man, because that does matter. God does have a standard and many of the things mentioned He does speak to in His Word as being sin so what some may think is legalism may just be a loving, carrying brother/sister attempting to point another to JESUS???
Anyway I appreciate your heart in posting this and the discussion we have shared. Thanks.

God Bless
mary

theEphah,

Nice end around theEphah. Still did not answer the question. And, I already answered your question in another posting, followed by my question.

theEphah said, "No offence friend, but that's a silly question. Why would I be harping on the subject if I don't practice what I preach?"

So you follow all 613 laws (commandments) of the Torah?

http://www.milechai.com/judaism/613-laws-of-the-torah-365-negative-laws.html

Please look through this list. These are direct commandments from the Lord. Let's pick a few and see if you have broken any of these...

43 - Shaving the temples of the head
44 - Shaving the beard
50 - Showing mercy to idolaters
157 - Infringing any oral obligation, even if undertaken without an oath
185 - Eating the fat of a clean animal
235 - Lending at interest
236 - Borrowing at interest
251 - Wronging one another by speech

You claim to keep all of these. Do you? If not, you are guilty of breaking the Lord's commandments and are subject to eternal punishment because of such. Remember, these are commandments...

Hey Pilgrim 777-

Great post. Funny stuff.... if a person is mature enough to take a good long honest look at themselves and not just defend their "legalist leanings" . Sometimes the point hits to close to home for comfort. I think Lysa was making that same analogy with the pack of dogs. The one that got hit ( the point was to close to home) is the one yelling the loudest.

However, it seems that anything that makes a legalist uncomfortable will always evoke a vicious response. It seems to happen on threads all the time.

Regardless, great post and you have been most gracious in your follow up explanations to those who took issue.

Have a great weekend everyone!

Hey Mary,

I want to acknowledge your post and will get to it later.

I am not worried about what the person's heart motivation is regarding the creation of this list. I just take it for face value and consider my own heart motivations.

And you have to remember that not everything that is communicated by the Spirit is codified in the Bible. But man is very religious and wants to codify everything. The danger here is that we follow something on paper and impose that same belief on others.

If you read the Gospels again take a closer look at Jesus and His words and ways towards others.

I have to run for now but will comment a little more on your post later.

Great talking with you, too.
Pilgrim

Hi Solomon,

Thanks for your kind comments. I never would have believed the level of freedom and liberty that I know of today that exists in Jesus Christ decades earlier. I'm sure I would have been one that "yelled the loudest" about defending God's Word and "how dare you say that." Even as I pen these statements I remember certain passages where the Pharisees were indignant at Jesus for blowing their religious mindsets. I know it needs to be said for those who don't understand yet, that we are not talking about freedom to sin. We are talking about freedom to enjoy the Lord and His life and others.

I am sure there is much more in me to discover that is not of Him but I am much more relaxed in my relationship with God today and know that I don't have to go looking for it. I am much more confident in His ability to perform His work in me and in His love for me. We certainly have to keep our sense of humor otherwise we would "beat" ourselves (religiously) to death or burn out for lack of personally, perceived performance.

Who the Son sets free (from self, Satan, religion and legalism) is free indeed.

Blessings to you, this weekend.
Pilgrim

Greetings Pilgrim

you wrote:
I have to run for now but will comment a little more on your post later.

Great talking with you, too.
Pilgrim

___________

It has been nice talking with you as well. No hurries or worries about getting back to me. I did not really write anything all that worth responding to any way :)

I do consider the motivations of the authors heart simply because there are those I have found on occasion who do post these kinds of things just to stir things up. I am not saying that is the thought behind this but it does give me pause. I do agree it is always important to examine our own hearts and the motivation behind why we make the choices we do.

Thank you again and God bless and keep you
mary

Hi Mary,

I have just found that in posting online in a forum it is best to "believe all things" about others and trust that the other person is being sincere. I have no way of knowing another person's heart motivations in person let alone, online.

But, even it they are not, it should not affect our behaviour, right?

The Lord bless and keep you, too.
Pilgrim

theEphah,

Thank you for your reply.

It is good to see that you know the scriptures. Yet, you still did not answer the question. Do you obey the law?

"For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, 'CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.' Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, 'THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.' However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, 'HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.' Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us -- for it is written, 'CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE' -- in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." (Galatians 3:10-14) - (Caps for emphasis)

Pilgram,

Brother, I find absolutely nothing wrong with your post.

God bless you,
Lisa

PS: I would have sent this in an email so as not to upset the legalists... if you had an email listed. (hehe)

Hi theEphah,

Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

The man that doeth the law will live in the law.

It is much better to live "In Christ" for He alone fulfilled the law as God wanted Him to, not as the Pharisees wanted Him to.

The curse of the law is that no one, not even you can keep it or even the "commandments of Jesus". We have been redeemed by Christ's death from the curse of the law which says "Cursed is every one that continueth not in ALL things which are written in the book of the law to do them."

Our faith is not in our performance or our ability to keep anything, but in Christ. Saving, redemptive faith is more powerful than the arm of the flesh and self-discipline because it is the only thing that apprehends Christ and thus apprehends grace. Christ is grace and grace is found in the person of Christ. Jesus Christ is our grace, our salvation, our eternal life our strength, etc, etc. Jesus Christ is the embodiment of all of these things and He is received by faith, we abide in Him by faith, we eat the Bread that came down from heaven by faith. We walk by faith and not by sight.

Without faith it is impossible to please Him. No one really has to have faith to keep commandments (Gal 3:12), but you must have faith to abide in the living Christ everyday and to partake of Him.

Let's pray for each other. The Lord is gracious and kind and will always help us if we ask.

Pilgrim

theEphah,

You have shown and proven that in no way, shape or form do you wish to converse with others, but only to preach to them.

Be blessed.

A simple yes or no might not work in reference to the verse quoted that is not in its full context. When you read from verse 16 of Matthew chapter 19 all the way through you see that the rich young man claimed he kept all the ten commandments that Jesus quoted. Then he asked Jesus what he still lacked and Jesus said "if you want to be (perfect) then sell all you have and give it to the poor. Here was a man that was thinking he was already living all the laws and Jesus knew his mindset was that he would get salvation by observing the law. Jesus told him what he did because he knew that this was one thing this man couldn't do. Why? because this man probably didn't really believe in Jesus but rather believed in himself believing himself to be worthy by the law. Jesus was telling him ok you can get to heaven if you are perfect but no one is not even you because you wont sell all you have. Didn't he also say "there is only One who is good"?
I know I have never sold all my possessions and given them to the poor. I can only thank Jesus for his blood that covers my sins. I'm not advocating sin by no means there is nothing good that results from sin but to think my salvation lies on my being sinless well then I might as well throw in the towel now.

What do these threads do to bind us together in prayer, bind us together in the Blood of Messiah, that cleanses all sin?

I hear your exasperating cry, Neil. Your post got me thinking about a common pattern of relating:

It is human nature to approach others in a way that causes them to resist us. Try this: Ask someone to put his hand up against yours. Then push gently on his hand. He will instinctively push against your hand. But if you did not push on his hand, he would not push back. Likewise, whenever you and I assert our power over another person in a way that causes him or her to sense a push from us, he instinctively pushes back. It’s the opposite of what we want! We do not realize we have this affect until we feel the push back. He pushes against us, and then we push back some more, determined to assert our "rightness". If this push-push way of relating continues – the other person eventually becomes our enemy. And everybody is worn out and exasperated. We walk away from each other, and the devil wins.

Christian submission, on the other hand, flows out of our vulnerability, not our power. We lay down our swords and yield ourselves (yes, even to our "enemies") that they may taste of Christ's grace through our manner of treating them.

i desire no dialogue with you, for Light has NO fellowship with darkness.

It sounds like you wish to disengage and lay down your sword - mind you - after deploying it rather acutely. Keep in mind that we may be left with a few pangs from your sword ("culprits" or not). I trust that you will persevere in love and soothe our pain with expressions of your mercy. I know it's in your heart. I now you have a BIG heart.

my love for you knows no bounds,

Diane

Neil, Do you mind addressing my post too?

Just wondering if you saw it.

Diane

Quote last but one 'IF'
"If you want to challenge and debate some of these issues...then you might be a legalist...because legalists love to fight and feud."

Well that about covers nearly everyone who has participated in this thread, so just accept we are all 'legalists' and be done with this nonsense!

Greetings

Neil not sure if you were directing some of your comments towards my post but if what I was discussing with Pilgrim caused you to feel offended or sad then please forgive me. Often I try really hard to chose my words just so, hoping that they will convey my heart, praying that there will be no misunderstandings or cause anyone to stumble...Yet I feel like I fail almost every time I post. This has made me think perhaps I should discontinue my time here on sermon index. If my posts are not uplifting, if they do nothing to draw another to Jesus then they are useless, waste of time and space and should be done away with.

Pilgrim: I personally don't care if another calls me legalistic, if there only intention is to call me names then that's ok. However if someone comes to me and says you know mary the way you worded that or said that sounds really judgmental and not a loving Christ like heart then I want to listen and pray on that because God may just have something for me to learn.

When I posted my replies I hoped to convey what my heart was. Of course when I replied I was doing so thinking how would I want another brother/sister in Christ to treat me, that is how I should treat them. Some of the things listed in the original post are clearly spoken of as sin and as such if we truly want to demonstrate our love for another believer we should be willing to come up along side them and share truth with them. I don't mean attack them or beat them up but rather pointing out to them the road they are on and the dangers that may lie just ahead if they continue on it. Seems to me that is one of the reasons Jesus gives us one another to help each other on this journey as we make our way in this world. There may be stuff in my life that I just don't see because of self or what ever but I really sincerely pray that if you or another believer are seeing sin in my life that you would love me enough to speak to me about :)

Okay that's enough from me, I sure hope I did not write anything here in such a way as to offend...

God Bless
mary

Thanks for your attention Neil, It’s just that I was hoping you would respond to the ACTUAL words I printed myself. It seems like the squeakiest voices keep getting the attention.

most times, no fruit

i smell sulfur.

Sounds like it’s time for a new sniffer!

so just accept we are all 'legalists' and be done with this nonsense!

I already said that the list troubled me. I saw fire in it the first time I read it. And it turned out to be so. But maybe that's what is actually good about it. We prove it right! So why don’t we just forget about it all and simply accept the last line:

a legalist... aren't we all, to some degree?

Who doesn't to some extent try to create the righteous life in their own strength? Meanwhile - there's the needy, crying brother in the ditch - who gets ignored.

Diane

Hi MaryJane,

I just want to say that I appreciate that you took up the conversation with me. And when you did you found out some things that were helpful to you. One, that I did not write it, but don't know who did and 2) that I was looking for insight from others as well. I learned some things, too.

Man is a "religious" being because of the Fall. He became religious when he partook of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. And ever since then he has tried to come up with his own morality.

Man was made a spiritual being and a derivative being. By this I mean that Man must derive his spiritual life from one of two sources. God or Satan. These are the only two sources and since man chooses not to derive his life from the Lord or "feed" on Him then his only alternative is Satan. But man does not like to admit or even believe that this is the only other possibility so he creates his own morality or ethos. Even Believers use the Bible to create a "Christian morality" or "rules and regulations".

So, my posting was mainly to get a discussion going on how subtle "legalism" can be. And like Neil said, how anyone can be "religious".

Christian have created their own "Christian ethos" whereby they no longer have to depend on the Living, Dynamic, Spirit of Christ. Living by the commandments of men takes no faith, but depending on and living from His life each day only comes by faith.

Granted, some of the author's examples were a bit "strained", but nevertheless it was a good starting point to talk about legalism and religiousity. At least, I think so, and it seems that other posters like you, were ok with it, too.

It was great talking with you and I look forward to more conversations. Your words on "paper" certainly communicate to me that you love God and love people and just want them to know Him and His love.

I guess a lot of people must come on this forum throwing out "hand grenades" and "testing" everyone and it seems that many have become affected negatively by it and thus have become over sensitive to many posts that might initially "rub them the wrong way". I think it would be good to refrain from nastiness towards others, though. Even (especially) the "heretics" and anyone else that does not hold to one's views.

Have a great weekend,
Pilgrim

The book of Galatians confronts legalism.

Biblical Legalism ALWAYS refers to weaving the LAW into Salvation. (a works based Salvation)

To be honest (in the American Christian culture) a "legalist" is someone who has a higher set of standards than you.

Hey there MaryJane,

I had some more thoughts on "If you men have ever felt condemned for having taken a second look at a beautiful woman (in a short skirt)...then you might be a legalist."

First off, if we are in Christ and we sin we don't feel condemned we feel sorrowful. Why? Because we are in a relationship with the Lord who loves us and if that second look resulted in sin, we should feel sorrowful because we allowed something in our heart that hurts/grieves the Holy Spirit. If we don't feel sorrowful then we won't be convicted and that means we are probably pretty far away from the Lord.

It is not about condemnation to the person that is walking in liberty and freedom and relationship. Legalism is about ME and kills all relationships with others. Legalism is about performance (how well am I doing) so if my performance is not up to par, then I condemn myself. Its not conviction or sorrow, just plain old self-condemnation. We have become our own little idol.

I think that is what the writer must have been getting at when you consider the point of his message was about legalism which is self-performance.

What do you think?

Pilgrim

Hi Lysa,

This thread went off the rails early and I missed your list. Looks pretty good. I am taking a look at it now since I missed it earlier.

Here it is again for anyone that missed it like I did.

"Here are some hard hitting questions to ask yourself to find out if you are a legalist. Check out #4 & 10!!!"

-------------------------------

Take this quiz to see if you qualify as a legalist:

Could you be a legalist?

Answer yes or no to the following questions:

1) God's love for me depends on what I do.

2) Meeting the expectations of others, especially those in my congregation or in positions of authority, are paramount.

3) Moral and ethical questions are usually black and white and only made into fuzzy shades of gray by hand-wringing, bleeding-heart types.

4) I try hard to obey God and it irritates me that others think they can get away with avoiding the same level of dedication.

5) I fall short because I don't have enough faith, or because I haven't prayed enough, or because I just need to be a better person.

6) God is predisposed to be angry with me because I am a sinner. My main goal in life is to try to gain God's favor by doing things that will impress him.

7) My sense of spiritual well-being is linked to a Christian leader or membership in my church rather than a personal relationship with God.

8) I tell my children not to do something in church or around other Christian families that I allow in my home.

9) I believe my church is God's true church and that most other Christians may be sincere, but are sincerely wrong.

10) The exterior choices a person makes in what they wear, hairstyle, piercings, tattoos, etc. is a clear indication of that person's character.

11) I sometimes worry that people might take advantage of grace if it's preached too much —people might think they can do anything they want.

12) After being around Christians for a while I feel drained —weary of putting up a false front.

13) When I happen to miss a service or activity of my church I feel guilty.

14) I will likely get into heaven, even though I'm far from perfect, because I have tried to be a basically good person and God will take that into account.

Quiz by Greg Albrecht http://www.ptm.org/

i think if we are to be bibilcal in this ,maby we should

show where the bible teaches that all these points ,are literaly taught in the scripture as evedence of legalisim

insead of saying if this or that is you you might be a legalist,,,,,unless we show where this is taught in scripture ,,it may be based upon ones opinion of what they think legalism is

and if it is just shown to be an opinion of someones definiiton of legalisim ,, this is in no way the word of god

neither should we treat it as the word of god ,till we show that the scripture is in full agreement with the points mentioned

and if we treat something as if it is the inflable word of god ,and aply it as if it is ,,when it may not be word of the living god ,,,that behavour in its self ,,,may by be described as legalist behavour also

so what does the bible teach about what we call legalisms

lets look into that

instead of treating all these points made hear as if it is an infalable teaching on bibilcal legalisim

other wise we may all fall into the trap of legalisim

by pushing these points as the word from the living god

bless you all

the form of legalism in the bible regarding the pharrisees

is in the contex ,,of some one having the form of godliness but dening the power,,paull said we should avoid these

these not having the spirit ,are not born againg ,but whos father is he devil as jesus said

this is compleatly different situation ,to aborn again believer behaving as legalist,,

we should never mix the two and call our brothers and sisters in christs, pharisses,,

but brethern ,,i love the passion and zeal desplaied hear ,and i respect and can relate to how you feel verry strong to up hold the truth with out wavering

i love that

but brethern i love the zeal and passions desplaied here ,and i respect you all and how you feel verry strong about this ,, so please dont think im trying to fight with anyone

i honestly dont see any scripture showing paul or other apostals ,calling christans pharasees

correct me if im wroung

he may have called them foolish

i dont think our behavour towards our brothers sisters should go passed what is writtern

your welcome jesus is god

Hey Brother Gary,

Has the Spirit of God ever told you anything that was not explicitly in the Bible?

He has me. He has told me to take certain jobs, move to specific places, and pray for certain people, but I could never find these things or these people in the Bible.

So, was I wrong in obeying His voice? Of course not. Is He wrong in revealing specific legalisms to us even if we don't see them written down in the Bible? The principle of the law of life in Christ Jesus is not spelled out letter for letter in the Bible, either. That is why Christ indwells us and we hear His voice and follow Him wherever He goes...even if we don't see it in the Bible, per say.

BrotherGary, legalisms can be identified that may not be explicity spelled out exactly in the Bible. Does that make them any less legalistic? What the Lord shows us will always agree in principle with the Spirit of the Letter. We will never find everything in the Letter alone. It is the Spirit that gives the Letter, LIFE!!

Blessings to you bro,
Pilgrim

"Church history has amply demonstrated that... The written record became absolutized. The prophetic spirit was quenched. The Christian Scripture became a rigid Christian Torah, a rule book for everything Christians must believe and teach. The gospel became a new law. Faith was confounded with orthodoxy, which was really theological legalism. The church ceased to be a charismatic community and became an institution. Instead of the Spirit there were rules. Instead of the priesthood of all believers there was wretched clericalism. Instead of the Spirit and presence of the living Christ there was religious canned goods. Instead of the living gospel there was dead ideology. Instead of freedom there was bondage. Yet, like the Pharisees, we have desperately tried to substitute an incredible devotion to the letter of Holy Scripture for the prophetic Spirit. Instead of having the certainty which the Spirit inspires, we have looked for certainty in endless apologetics and theories of textual inerrancy. (Robert D. Brinsmead, "The Gospel and the Spirit of Biblicism, Part I", The Christian Verdict, Essay 15, 1984. Fallbrook: Verdict Publications. Pg 9).

Hi Pilgrim,

That is actually a very good quote you gave. And how true! Christianity has elevated the Bible above the Person of Jesus Christ and consequently pushed the Living Christ aside for the Letter. Only Jesus Christ is the Living Word of God.

Your quote goes on to expose that the spirit of prophecy is absent, today. We are missing the prophetic spirit, today because of men's bibliolatry of the Letter.

According to your quote then, I have another one to add to your list.

You could be a legalist if God is moving by His Spirit but you say it's not true because you cannot find it in the Bible.

Thank you for bringing up this important subject,

In Christ,
Sarah

Hi Sarah,

I'm glad you understand what I am saying.

I will end today with this verse. I think it says quite a bit.

John 5:39 Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me;

What was he trying to tell the Pharisees? The next verse has the answer.

John 5:40 and ye will not come to me, that ye may have life.

Blessings to you,
Pilgrim

many times have i herd from what i believe to be the spirit and felt it to be a prophetic word from my lord

but that word doesnt carry infalibility ,neither the athority that the prophetic word of god carries

i wasnt chossen by god to have infalibility in my ability prophecy or exort or rebuke or reprove or to teach

if i had the infalibility every word i get from god to exort teach propeticly , i would be able to wright in down in my own book and call it garys bible ..and it would be binding on all christans as the bible is binding on us as believers

as jesus said scripture can not be broken
but my words or teachings can be wroung ,and i do make mistakes ,,,,not so in the gosples and the letters ,with they teach is no mistake ,,even the old testament is 100 percent correct in what it teaches

i fully agree the spirit gives life and ilumination to the scripture,as it is impressed on our minds and hearts and concences

and yea the bible is used by people who have not the spirit ,but do have a form of godliness and denie the power ,,i cant disagree with that

but that doesnt take away,,the truth that is reveled in the writtern revalation of god ,towards man,,,in his infalable word

we need not go passed what is writtern
paul pressed this point

we need not to add nor take away from the gosple or inspirid letters of the bible

paul said to timothey that scripture was sufishent for its proposed purpose ,,to equipt the believer

i cant argue with that

i cant add my word from god to scripture no matter how edafieng it is

bless you

This is very good, this belief system must be exposed for what it is. Thank you Pilgrim.

Looking down your nose at other sinners is not why our Lord Jesus came, He didn't come to condemn the world but to save it. If He has saved me from my sin then how dare I look down at you. This is something we all tend to do, especially those who tend to be more legalistic.

Jesus Christ had every right to do it, He is perfect! But He isn't that way. So loving and always giving encouragement to push forward. Some of us are arrogant and mean, always tearing down Christians.

brothagary wrote:
but that doesnt take away,,the truth that is reveled in the writtern revalation of god ,towards man,,,in his infalable word

we need not go passed what is writtern
paul pressed this point

we need not to add nor take away from the gosple or inspirid letters of the bible

I will tell you, they were led by the Holy Spirit.

God bless,
Lisa

Hi Sarah,

That is the general idea, yes.

The Pharisees took the Torah and added "commandments of men" and their "traditions" and actually nullified the Word of God by their "mixture". In their boasting about how well they knew God's Word, Christ reveals to them that they do not know God at all. They search the scriptures and are proud of their understanding of them, but do not know God otherwise Jesus said, they would have recognized Him.

Through the centuries, Christianity has done the same thing and created various forms of Christianity.

Both systems bind heavy burdens upon men that is not of God. That is why Jesus was contrasting Himself with the teaching of the Pharisees and told us to come to Him, because His yoke is easy and His burden is light.

"The New Testament authors did not customarily refer to their written record as the Word of God. That subsequent Christian tradition tends to do this while the writers themselves hesitate to do it should tell us something. Evidently they distinguished the difference between the living, infinite Word and the written record more clearly than we do. If the written record is ever called the Word, it is the Word only in a secondary, derivative or relational sense. It is not the Word in the absolute sense. Strictly speaking, the Scripture is the witness to the Word of God, and like a good witness, it does not speak of itself but points away from itself (John 5:39)." (Robert D. Brinsmead, "The Gospel and the Spirit of Biblicism, Part I", The Christian Verdict, Essay 15, 1984. Fallbrook: Verdict Publications. Pg 9).

Hey there, Lovefirst.

Thanks for your contribution. Here is a simple example I was thinking about today.

When I first got saved, I obviously knew nothing about the Bible not having grown up in Christianity.

As I read the Bible weeks after becoming born-again, I realized that the way the Spirit of God had been leading me in my heart was lining up perfectly with what I was reading in the Bible.

I thought, WOW!!, this is exactly what I have been doing in my heart and attitude towards others. The Bible was confirming the way that the Spirit of God had already been leading me.

And don't get me wrong, I love the Bible, but just had to learn this simple lesson that Jesus was trying to teach the Pharisees. It has helped me greatly.

Great talking with you,
Pilgrim

Sister Jesus-is-God,

Can I ask who you are talking to? You've responded three times on this page alone, with no names in your subject line or in the posts.

God bless,
Lisa

Hi Brother Appolus,

Amen, it really is a beautiful thing to be a child of God. When the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Spirit of Grace, there is nothing more profound and yet simple.

Regarding the question of "has the Spirit of God led me to contradict the 10 commandments"? I would have to say emphatically, YES!

Remember the rich young man that told Jesus he obeyed all the commandments? Jesus went a bit deeper with him, didn't He?

Legalism is the letter only, but the Spirit of the Letter goes to the motivations and thoughts of the heart.

If I just lived by the letter of the 10 commandments then I could ignore the attitude of my heart. That is legalism. Legalism is outward performance to be seen of men.

Jesus deals a blow to legalism over and over. Here is one instance where keeping one commandment is not enough.

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

The Spirit of God deals with the inside of the cup. It does not matter how pretty we make the outside. God is concerned about the inside and this is where the Spirit of God takes us: To the heart of the matter, so to speak.

Blessings to all,
Pilgrim

Brothagary said,

we need not go passed what is writtern

Brothagary, Amen! You’ll have no problem getting unanimous agreement on this. And more: Here on SI people passionately care about honoring God’s word. I am convinced that if you look beneath any superficial expression of frustration, anger, and dispute, you’ll see a deeply caring person. The hurtful words flow out of genuine care and burden for the preservation and purity of the laws of God.

Evangelical theologian, Martin Lloyd Jones, argues that love for God’s laws is not wrong; and it does not make a person a legalist! The law is foundational. It is not law, but the approach to law that gives no end of troubles. It’s an inability to prioritize the spirit of the law. And so the letter of the law overshadows a bigger picture. We see a lot of intense discussions about various laws (or moral issues) but we also see bad eyesight when it comes to the real people themselves, or to what God may desire over and above the details.

It’s like a health care team that is so focused on the laws of medicine that they can’t see the patient - or any reality past the cells, tendons, and tissues.

Poor bed side manner is not merely a plight in the health care institution. It is also a plight in the religious institution. Both institutions depend heavily on laws. The ability to see beyond the laws in themselves – well that’s a far more mature level of morality.

Just think: If the Bible were a straightforward simple list of rules to robotically plug into - we'd never have to grow into maturity.

Diane

A simple illustration of me breaking the 10 commandments is I have to work 2 Saturdays every month, according to my regular schedule. If I have to work some overtime because someone is on vacation or sick then maybe another Saturday.

My wife doesn't work. I provide for my family. Should I quit my job because I have to break God's Law and not be able to provide? Of course not! If I got the opportunity to get another job where I could be off on Saturdays then I would be more than happy to take it.

I am a new born in Christ Jesus, I was born again - truly, on Dec 16th 2010. Looking back I can see that Jesus was with me my whole life but now I am quickened to Him. I hear Him much clearer and can understand His direction for me. I love Him very much. Once experiencing this and then running into some people in the Body of Christ who are so bent on the letter and while doing so ugly and mean to others, I know in my gut that something is dead wrong!

I appreciate your testimony Lovefirst. Stay sensitive to His voice.

I am reminded of Pilgrim on Pilgrim's Progress (book and movie about it), by John Bunyan. He had set his face like a flint to follow the Lord and not be dissuaded by men. On the road to the Celestial City he met a so-called brother who called himself Legalist. His new friend was full of compromise and had a tendency to twist the word and water it down.

You will meet many "brothers" like this on your own road to Zion. Hopefully, you can help open their eyes because most of them don't realize they are trying to shut your eyes.

I would say many are sincere but ignorant of Life in the Spirit.

Think about this. A handful of men turned the world upside down 2,000 years ago. It was not because of some cool new religion or exceptional doctrine or rules they came up with. It was because of the reality of the Living Christ that dwelt in them and walked with them. They turned the world upside down before the NT was ever finished.

Thanks for your encouraging post.

Pilgrim

Hi Pilgrim,

This is a much needed topic to discuss and I do understand what you are trying to convey. But, I think from reading different posts that some people do not understand what Legalism is or obeying the "Letter of the Law or Spirit of the Law", so here are some definitions that might help others.

Legalism, in Christian theology, is a sometimes-pejorative term referring to an over-emphasis on discipline of conduct, or legal ideas, usually implying an allegation of misguided rigour, pride, superficiality, the neglect of mercy, and ignorance of the grace of God or emphasizing the letter of law over the spirit. Legalism is alleged against any view that obedience to law, not faith in God's grace, is the pre-eminent principle of redemption.

The letter of the law versus the spirit of the law is an idiomatic antithesis. When one obeys the letter of the law but not the spirit, one is obeying the literal interpretation of the words (the "letter") of the law, but not the intent of those who wrote the law. Conversely, when one obeys the spirit of the law but not the letter, one is doing what the authors of the law intended, though not necessarily adhering to the literal wording.

And a great example of legalism would be Matthew 23 where Jesus pronounced all the "woes" on the Pharisees.

The woes themselves are all woes of hypocrisy:

1.Hypocrisy: They taught about God but did not love God - they did not enter the kingdom of heaven themselves, nor did they let others enter. (Mat. 23:13-14)

2.Hypocrisy: They preached God but converted people to dead religion, thus making those converts twice as much sons of hell as they themselves were. (Mat. 23:15)

3.Hypocrisy: They taught that an oath sworn by the temple or altar was not binding, but that if sworn by the gold ornamentation of the temple, or by a sacrificial gift on the altar, it was binding. The gold and gifts, however, were not sacred in themselves as the temple and altar were, but derived a measure of lesser sacredness by being connected to the temple or altar. The teachers and Pharisees worshipped at the temple and offered sacrifices at the altar because they knew that the temple and altar were sacred. How then could they deny oath-binding value to what was truly sacred and accord it to objects of trivial and derived sacredness? (Mat. 23:16-22)

4.Hypocrisy: They taught the law but did not practise some of the most important parts of the law - justice, mercy, faithfulness to God. They obeyed the minutiae of the law such as titheing spices but not the real meat of the law. (Mat. 23:23-24)

5.Hypocrisy: They presented an appearance of being 'clean' (self-restrained, not involved in carnal matters), yet they were dirty inside: they seethed with hidden worldly desires, carnality. They were full of greed and self-indulgence. (Mat. 23:25-26)

6.Hypocrisy - They exhibited themselves as righteous on account of being scrupulous keepers of the law, but were in fact not righteous: their mask of righteousness hid a secret inner world of ungodly thoughts and feelings. They were full of wickedness. They were like whitewashed tombs, beautiful on the outside, but full of dead men's bones. (Mat. 23:27-28)

7.Hypocrisy: They professed a high regard for the dead prophets of old, and claimed that they would never have persecuted and murdered prophets, when in fact they were cut from the same cloth as the persecutors and murderers: they too had murderous blood in their veins. (Mat. 23:29-36)

In Matthew 22, just before the WOES, it is significant that Jesus talked about the the Two Greatest Commandments before He spoke with much directness to the Pharisees.

Christ did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. His purpose was to encourage people to look beyond the "letter of the law" to the "spirit of the law"...the principles behind the commandments and the law's intention. The law was never intended as a moral slide-rule, but as evidence of transgression. Mankind turned this declaration into a moral code book. Jesus quotes the book of Deuteronomy and Leviticus: "All the Law can be summed up in this: to love Yahweh with all your heart, all your mind and all your heart, and to love your neighbor as yourself" (paraphrased).

Thank you and God bless,
Sarah

Thank you very much Jesus-is-GOD and Sharasdream.

I love to read the bible and can understand it much better. I want to make this point though Jesus-is-GOD, before I was born again I read the Sermon on the Mount and wondered what exactly did Jesus mean in most of His teachings. Now I have such an abundant love for Him that the desire to sin has lost its appeal in my life. While there was some bondage after my encounter with the Holy Spirit, through prayer and an honest desire to no longer live in bondage, He quickly removed the chains. I don’t want to be in bondage to anything but my Lord now. I gave the example of Sabbath breaking because I have to work, do you know that I went on and on for months wondering if I was angering God because I worked on Saturday? Do you know that there are plenty of Sabbath keepers who would have gladly condemned me for working on those days?
Here is another example I see by those who only look at law breaking, sin. A Christian is having issues in life and they are brave enough and honest enough to come out with their struggle, the first thing they hear is, “Oh you are sinning somehow” Instead of identifying with their struggle and trying to meet a need in their life, people want to just point out their sin and kick them while they are down. Sure, we all sin and the consequences are unpleasant but is that what our Lord Jesus did?
Pharisee is not another word for legalist. There where legalist Pharisee’s, Scribes, Sadducee’s, and Zealot’s etc. I understand some people identify Pharisee with legalist but it isn’t correct. Legalists are people putting their trust in the letter and not Christ Jesus. That is it. Without the Holy Spirit it is impossible to put all your trust in Jesus and to love Him. I do love Jesus, I love His commandments, I want desperately to follow Him always but I fail every day. I seek the renewing of my mind to find His perfect will for my life. I would say that the best example in my opinion for being Holy Spirit filled and loving God’s law is of course David.
We must love the Christian and the Lost before we go on and on about God’s law or we are a noisy musical instrument! Can’t we see that sometimes we just push people away from Christ because of our doings? These can and are eternal consequences! Jesus said that they will know you are my followers by the way you Love one another, Paul said it is the greatest of all fruit of the Holy Spirit, without Love you don’t have much of anything. If you have not Love you have not God.

those that stand firm in honor of our Savior's words are singled out and persecuted.

How can that be?

Diane

Pilgrim,

I received in my email an article, “Hope for the Terminally Judgmental” that could be added to the quiz so I reread the quiz and wanted to comment on a couple of questions....

10) The exterior choices a person makes in what they wear, hairstyle, piercings, tattoos, etc. is a clear indication of that person's character.
•\tThis is a huge one and reminds me of the saying, “Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die;” it needs to be changed to, “Everybody wants these people saved but nobody wants them in their church,” unless of course.

11) I sometimes worry that people might take advantage of grace if it's preached too much — people might think they can do anything they want.
•\tWe might as well exchange “love” for the word “grace,” we’ve all heard about "all those churches" that preach nothing but “love,” misleading the people.

Here are two other questions that from that same article that could be added to the quiz...

* Are you quick to quote a verse from the Bible rather than extend compassion?

* Do you believe certain sins are forgivable while others are not?

I am divorced and one divorce is treated as the unforgivable sin (even on this website), God help those who are divorced more than once.

We should be ok discussing the quiz since a new thread about transgressors is up and running!!! (huge grin)

God bless you brother,
Lisa

The real issue is that 'you might be a legalist' if you do everything RIGHT or everything WRONG, or any mixture in between.

I would agree. Legalism is simply underdeveloped morality.

Diane

Thanks Old_Joe,

Need some of that reality you're bringing.

Pilgrim's words are subtley being changed.

Regarding the miniskirt he said "condemned" not "convicted".

If we are going to quote him, let's not change his words to fit our point of view.

In Christ,
Sarah

P.S. Christianity is not about morality, people. The Pharisees were the moralists of their day and Jesus failed them in every respect.

Christianity is Jesus Christ, not religion, not rules, not morality.

I haven't called anybody a pharisee, legalist or judaizer;

theEphath, I would certainly NEVER do that either! Actually, I have (too) often deployed far more sophisticated and subtle ways of achieving the same goal. It’s amazing how effectively polite words can conceal devilish condemnations - along with pontificating self-righteousness.

And then the Spirit comes along and points it out. Ouch!

Diane

Yes, we are all legalists to some degree! The funny thing is, the bigger the legalist, the less likely they will willingly own their title.

Now if we would only judge ourselves in this, we would not come under judgment.

Amen. Great statement, Old_Joe,

That seems to be the whole point to me about the OP as flawed as it might be. I understand the intent of it. I don't judge the poster for not have perfect "elocution."

Judge ourselves and not others. At least that is the way I took it. The Pharisees used the Letter to judge others and threaten people, not bring them Life.

In Christ,
Sarah

It seems to me that those who are pointing out what legalism is are being far too legalistic in their definition of legalism. Maybe they would like to legislate a new law to make sure we eradicate legalism completely? Oh hang on...we will now have to raise up a new breed of legalist watchers to sort out these who have just introduced this new law to outlaw the original legalism!!

Or maybe better not to point the finger at all?? That includes at those you think are legalistic, because you who judge your brother are now commiting the same sin. Ah now I've done it too!

So maybe we just look to ourselves and judge ourselves by God's word. That may work better!

Look at these fabulous quotes coming along!

Christianity is not about morality, people.

the only real definition of "legalist" is one who looks at ANYTHING that they are doing or not doing that makes them more holy or less holy

Theologian Martyn Lloyd-Jones uses the word “MECHANICAL” in place of “LEGALISTIC”. It's being stuck on the mechanics (letter of the law) over and above the bigger picture (spirit of the law). Maybe it helps to draw a parallel from the scientific world:

Imagine having a legalistic/mechanically -wired scientist over for coffee. The first thing he does is pull out a litmus paper strip and dips it in the coffee to check the PH balance. Then he takes a swab from his spoon to check the bacterial count. His eyes glance to the plant on the table – and he instinctively gets out his magnifying glass to check the brown spot for fungus. Meanwhile he has no capacity to sense the general mood of your home and your presence. He’s not wired that way.

Likewise, a moralistic Christian visits a neighbor and the first thing he notices is her tobacco- stained finger, her obesity, and her uncouth language. His first thought is this: She’s sinning by smoking and eating badly, and talking badly.

However, this legalist/mechanical/moralistic- wired Christian has no sensitivity to the probability that this person has been sexually abused - and has been starving most of her life for affirmation and love, and has been marginalized. Underneath her addictions, she craves to be forgiven and to forgive. But this Christian has no capacity to see that. He is not wired to touch her heart with tenderness and empathy. He can’t reach the very place where God could use him to bring Christ’s healing hope.

And worse yet - he can’t see his own blindness; and that’s what makes him dangerous. He pushes himself on her by burdening her down with moralisms which she can’t attain.

Or maybe she DOES manage to attain them, and then he makes her just a legalist as him. Either way, by reinforcing her sense of condemnation and shame – he imprisons her to a life of either sinner-hood or legalism-hood. He makes her a child of hell more than she was before. And so he is no better than her abusers (who down the road may include those who accuse her of being a legalist, hypocrite.)

And if she does find true healing through Christ's grace, (despite her legalistic mentor) and becomes expressive about it in the church, she will be accused of .... well, I won't go there. Regardless, legalism is a poison in the church - even as it is in our own hearts. It wars against God's redemptive purpose and plan.

To think – despite all my spiritual-sounding rhetoric, a brother here who spurts out uncouth language in a moment of rage may be quicker than I to spot the wounded victim in the ditch – and he may be more effective in touching her with Christ’s redemptive compassion.

Diane

Old_Joe,

I've enjoyed your responses in this thread.

God bless you,
Lisa

Using the Bible's own words.

Here is an example.

John 12:3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.

John 12:4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him,

John 12:5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?

John 12:6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

According to Judas, Mary was not being very moral. She was being wasteful.

Legalism manifesting as a critical spirit.

Jesus in turn was very critical of the Pharisees who pretended to be highly moral and virtuous, yet were exposed for their hypocrisy, rigid formalism, self-righteousness and exernalism. Absent of love is quite evident.

In John 12, we see hypocrisy and self-righteousness from Judas.

Do you think Jesus unfairly caricatured the Pharisees in His criticism of them?

How are these examples instructive for heart-professing Christianity as opposed to mouth-professing Christianity?

Pilgrim

Jesus-is-God wrote:
"Definition of love"? A person knows if they love people or not. They know when it's not their own love as well.

If I counted on a person’s love toward me, I’d be left out in the cold and like the old song says, “Baby its COLD outside.”

It’s just my two cents and God bless you,
Lisa

Diane,

Your post was very good and I just wanted to acknowledge it. Your human words help me to understand legalism and how it insidiously operates in the hearts, better.

I thought about the Samaritan woman as I read your post who had been married 5 times before she met Jesus at the well. He did not moralize her to death. I don't see Him moralizing any sinner with His Word, but rather, I see Him over and over again fulfilling His calling of Isaiah 61:3.

I have known divorced Christians, too and the Lord has not moralized them to death, either. Man has, but He has not.

This is really big and we should pay attention to it. Jesus never moralized, period!! Not even to the Pharisees. He exposed their formalism and legalism and self-righteousness. But the Lord never sat around moralizing which is basically nit-picking about one's outward behaviour and what they "should" be doing. You are right, Diane. Jesus knows the root cause of our sin and the need is always Him, not doing better, or trying harder. It is when we come to Him that we are transformed. We can stop short of coming to Him just like the Pharisees in John 5 and just come to the written word and use it to construct a beautiful cup (on the outside). This was the Lord's point to them. They would not come to Him that they might have LIFE.

He always wanted people to come to Him (the spring of Life).

He tried to get the Pharisees to come to Him in John 5, but told them that they would "not receive Him". They would only receive the honor of men. They come to the written word but not the Living Word. We have to see the distinction there, for Jesus Himself, taught that there is a distinction between coming to words on paper and coming to the Living Christ.

I am in no way denigrating the Bible and wish I did not have to write this disclaimer but some still don't understand the difference in coming to the Living Word and coming to words on paper. There is no reason to create a straw man and beat it to death. The Bible is given to us by God, but without the Spirit, the Living Christ, the letter only kills. This is the teaching of Jesus, not mine.

This has been a great discussion and I appreciate most of the contributions as we converse about what some people call "the dark side of Christianity"...Legalism.

Blessings to all,
Pilgrim

"Definition of love"? A person knows if they love people or not. They know when it's not their own love as well.

Just curious: What is your source for this definition?

I have to agree with the other posters that a person’s own sense of “love” is unreliable. You may wish to check the “High Benefit of Christian Submission” thread – where I explore the concept of love as in the Great Commandment.

Diane

Is not legalism " doing something to win God's favor"
When a person thinks and feels that I must follow the commandment so God can accept me and Love me.. This is being Legalistic..( slave attitude) (flesh)
But those who have been born again by the Holy Spirit see that God'law is just and Good and want to honor God by Loving God and Loving others...( Child attitude) (Spirit)

So "You ARE a legalist if... you work to win God's favor.." for in truth legalists despise the cross and try to form their own righteouness .. instead of standing on the righteousness of Christ.

So we must all ask ourselves what is the intent of our Heart?. Why do we do what we do?.. to win over God.. or to Honor God

andy

Is not legalism " doing something to win God's favor"

Hi Andres,

I think you bring up a good point. It seems that "legalism" will be Godward and Manward at the same time.

If a man is seeking God's favor through performance then he is probably seeking man's favor in the same vein. I think it would be impossible to be legalist toward God but not toward men and vice-versa.

When we are operating in legalism then we are seeking man's honor/favor as well as God's.

Jesus says that we don't have the love of God in us or can even "believe", when we are seeking the honor of men.

John 5:41 I receive not honour from men.
John 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
John 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

So, if a man is trying to "win over men/win man's favor", we can be sure that one is operating in that same character towards God as Jesus illustrates for us several times.

You can see why Jesus inflamed the Pharisees indignation and will also inflame ours if we don't love the truth (Jesus).

Excellent, thanks.
Pilgrim

1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

So then legalism is fear-based - the outcome of weak faith in God’s redemptive grace. Since legalism is driven by a spiritual anxiety it can never produce perfect love. (ex, love the defiled sinner)

Legalism says: I (or more typically, YOU!) must eradicate flaws to be justified sufficiently in God’s court. So there is a focus on the letter of the law over and above the spirit of the law – ie, legalism.

How’s this for a comparison:

The LETTER of the law focuses on PROHIBITIONS
The SPIRIT of the law focuses on EMPOWERMENT

Apply that to our popular women debates:

Letter-centeredness focus on what she CANNOT do.
Spirit-centeredness on what she CAN do – now that she is in Christ.

How did biblical gender laws empower Christian women in the first century? What would the spirit of those laws look like in 2010?

You can see why Jesus inflamed the Pharisees indignation and will also inflame ours if we don't love the truth (Jesus).

And even here “truth” is going to look vastly different through the “letter” lens than through the “spirit” lens. Luther himself discovered this after he encountered grace. For him the entire Bible took on an entirely new perspective.

Diane

WHY I HATE RELIGION BUT LOVE JESUS
By Jefferson Bethke

What if I told you Jesus came to abolish religion?
What if I told you voting republican really wasn’t his mission?

What if I told you republican doesn’t automatically mean Christian
And just because you call some people blind, doesn’t automatically give you vision

If religion is so great, why has it started so many wars?
Why does it build huge churches, but fails to feed the poor?

Tells single moms God doesn’t love them if they’ve ever had divorced
Yet in the Old Testament God actually calls the religious people whores

Religion might preach grace, but another thing they practice,
Tend to ridicule God’s people; they did it to John the Baptist,

They can’t fix their problems, so they try to mask it,
Not realizing that religion’s like spraying perfume on a casket

See the problem with religion is that it never gets to the core
It’s just behavior modification, like a long list of chores

Let’s dress up the outside, make things look nice and neat
Its funny that’s what they do to mummies, while the corpse rots underneath

Now I ain’t judging I’m just saying quit putting on a fake look,
Cause there’s a problem if people only know that you’re a Christian by your facebook

I mean in every other aspect of life you know that logics unworthy
It’s like saying you play for the Lakers just because you bought a jersey

See this was me too; no one seemed to be on to me
Acting like church kid, while addicted to pornography

See on Sunday, I’d go to church, but on Saturday getting faded
Acting as if I was simply created to have sex and get wasted

See, I spent my whole life building this façade of neatness
But now that I know Jesus, I boast in my weakness

Because if grace is water, then the church should be an ocean,
It’s not a museum for good people; it’s a hospital for the broken

I no longer have to hide my failures I don’t have to hide my sin,
Cause it doesn’t depend on me, it depends on Him.

See because when I was Gods enemy and certainly not a fan,
He looked down and said, “I want that man!”

Which is why Jesus hated religion and for it He called them fools
Don’t you see he’s so much better than just following some rules?

Now let me clarify, I love the church, I love the bible, and yes I believe in sin
But if Jesus came to your church would they actually let Him in?

Remember He was called a drunkard and a glutton by “religious men”
But the Son of God never supported self-righteousness, not now, not then.

Now back to the point, one thing I think is vital to mention,
How Jesus and religion are on opposite spectrums,

See, one’s the work of God and one’s a man made invention,
See one is the cure but the other is the infection.

See because Religion says do, Jesus says done.
Religion says slave, Jesus says son,

Religion puts you in bondage but Jesus sets you free.
Religion makes you blind, but Jesus makes you see.

And that’s why religion and Jesus are two different clans,
Religion is man searching for God, but Christianity is God searching for man.

Which is why salvation is freely mine, forgiveness is my own,
Not based on my merits, but Jesus’ obedience alone.

Because he took the crown of thorns, and blood that dripped down his face
He took what we all deserved; I guess that’s why you call it grace.

While being murdered he yelled “father forgive them, they know not what they do”,
Because when he was dangling on that cross, he was thinking of you

And He absorbed all your sin, and he buried it in the tomb,
Which is why I’m kneeling at the cross saying, “come on there’s room.”

So for religion, I hate it; in fact I literally resent it,
Because when Jesus said It is finished, I believe He meant it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY

I think that young man "gets it".