Why do we think of universalists as heretics?

Ever since the big 'Love Wins' controversy I have been studying and pondering universalism, and I have been surprised in my findings. The doctrine of UR (universal reconciliation) seems to me to be just as, if not more, biblical than Calvinism and Arminianism. It has tons of scriptural and historical support, it solves many of the problems we run into with Cal and Arm (ie. Did Jesus die for everybody or just a few?), and it has the strongest view of divine love, most powerful narrative of God's victory over evil, lifts the atoning efficacy of the cross of Christ to the greatest heights, triumphs grace over sin, and inspires worship and hope. It doesn't do away with God's wrath but presents it as restorative rather than merely punitive. It is truly glad tidings of great joy for all people, yet why do we say it's heretical?

I myself am still exploring and discovering, so I do not consider myself a universalism, but am interested in discussing it with my brothers and sisters on SI. Please share your thoughts and be open and honest

Universalism is a doctrine that is not clearly taught in Scripture at all. It is not some happy medium to settle the Calvinism and Arminian debates. It in no way belongs to any branch of Christianity that might claim to adhere to orthodoxy. The Scriptures clearly paint a picture of an eternal place called hell, where there is no relief from the torment of everlasting fire. It is heretical because it betrays a drastic misunderstanding of the holiness, love, and justice of God. And with a fuzzy understanding of these concepts, it completely ignores the clear, emphatic, and often repeated doctrine of the everlasting punishment of the wicked.

No one person spoke more about Satan and Hell than Jesus Christ. One thing you will find out about Universalists is that many if not all also subscribe to the notion that Satan is not a spiritual being. They have to do this in order to make their "Universalism" work.

Why? Because God made us as choosing beings and we derive our spiritual character, behaviour and identity from one of two sources. God or Satan. One cannot create their own spiritual identity as New Agers believe. Atheists believe you can have your own identity apart from a "so-called" God and Satan. This is the lie from of old that "you can be as gods." One must derive their spiritual identity, behaviour and character from a person.

So, on one hand, you cannot say that we derive our spiritual character (as choosing creatures) from God, but then if we do evil then it is just because we chose NOT God. Not true! We chose Satan. You cannot even derive your character and identity from the absence of good. Because that would mean that you created evil and we humans cannot create something that does not exist. Evil does exist and it exists in the person of Satan. When you choose Evil, you are choosing to align yourself with Satan. Plain and simple.

Universalists don't like the fact that Satan exists because then they would have the added burden of proving that God's universal reconciliation will work even for those who choose Satan as their image of character and behaviour. It becomes more difficult for them to say that God will save all mankind even those who choose to derive their character and behaviour and spiritual identity from the one that WILL be in the Lake of Fire.

Jesus said, "You are of your Father the Devil".

So, we either eat of the Tree of Life (abide in Christ) or we eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (abide in Satan) and we will grow the particular fruit from each tree.

Universalism ignores the existence of Hell for all those who align themselves with Satan because they ignore the existence of Satan.

There are several kinds of Universalism and you will find these beliefs in New Age religions, Wicca and various forms of the Occult. They will say that Satan and God share an equal dualism but they don't (Satan is meant to be overcome and we are instructed to overcome evil with good) and that Satan will eventually be saved, too. Other beliefs say that God knows Good and Evil and that Satan is part of Him. But the Bible says there is no evil in God at all. And that when we are tempted we should not say we are tempted of God because He cannot tempt anyone. There are so many various beliefs concerning Universalism that it borders on confusion and I would say it is pure confusion.

Satan's lie to Eve was that God was lying to them and that they would be like Him knowing good and evil. The lie was that they would be like God. But God does not know evil experientally like Adam and Eve were about to know it. God knows Evil by virtue of the fact that it is contrary to His nature. Anything that is contrary to God's nature is Evil. God does not want us to know the difference between good and evil by experiencing evil. Anyway, I digress.

Universalism or Ultimate Reconciliation has been making inroads more and more into mainstream Christianity and it is driven by major changes in our culture (political correctness, don't judge people) to bring the Church into slumber. Afterall, if God has saved us all regardless of how we live, why should we preach Christ or live holy lives? Of course, it is really driven and propagated from the bowels of Hell by Satan himself.

Ask yourself this question:

Do you think God will countenance another rebellion in heaven? Heaven is for those who choose Christ and not Satan. Yes, the world will say that Jesus is very narrowminded. That is true from the world's perspective. When it comes to evil, Jesus is very narrowminded and Satan is very broadminded. Jesus made no apologies in His earthly ministry.

Remember that God created us with only two choices, not three, not four. Good and Evil, Life or Death, Blessing or Cursing, God or Satan, Heaven or Hell.

Pilgrim

KingJimmy,

Thank you for your response. However, I would like to ask if you have ever given universal reconciliation any serious thought? It seems to me that once I removed the 'lens' of doctrinal tradition that I've been taught all my life and just simply read the scriptures, that ETC (eternal concious torment) is not as clearly taught as I thought. Aside from parables and apocalyptic language (revelation) there is not really much evidence for it. In fact the silence of the scriptures on the subject is astounding considering what a terrible fate that would be for one of God's creatures! Why would God not have warned Adam of an eternity of torture for his sin? That , I think, would've been worth mentioning. The OT hints much more at either annihilation or UR than ETC. Also, UR seems to be much more clearly taught in the NT than people like to give credit for (1tim 2:3-6, 1john 2:2,1tim. 4:10, col. 1:19-20... many more).

Also I don't think its just a happy medium between cal and arm, but perhaps the actual solution to the dilemma. That maybe it doesn't make fuzzy the holiness, love and justice of God, but reveals the nature of His atributes so much more clearly! That He truly does love all people, desires to save them, and wont relent until He accomplishes His purpose. Just some thoughts.

Pilgrim, I am on my phone at the time. When I get to a computer I will respond to your comment thanks.

Edit: for clarity (phone auto corrected)

However, I would like to ask if you have ever given universal reconciliation any serious thought?

I consider all things seriously. And I have read about such things in Bible college and elsewhere. But, as in, really serious, as a real possibility? No, never. And I don't intend to for the same reason that I don't seriously consider the claims of a lot of groups that teach things that are clearly false.

It seems to me that once I removed the 'lens' of doctrinal tradition that I've been taught all my life and just simply read the scriptures that ETC (eternal conciliate torment) is not clearly taught

Well, I'm not familiar with your tradition. And although I consider myself as part of a certain theological school of thought (or thoughts), I wasn't raised in the church, and have no loyalty to any particular denomination. So, there isn't really much of a tradition for me to divorce myself from. I was never really indoctrinated with a bent towards anything. I got saved later in my life, started reading the Bible for myself, and after meeting with various affiliations, finally settled down in some churches who I'm mostly in agreement with theologically.

Aside from parables and apocalyptic language (revelation) that there is not really any evidence for it.

I understand how to rightly interpet parables and apocalyptic language, so, and I'm pretty comfortable with such to build my doctrine with. Especially since Christ taught a lot of his theology from the use of parables. But as it is, what you have said here is not true. Without even cracking open my Bible, and just thinking off the top of my head, I can think of how the first five chapters of Romans are dedicated to showing how apart from having a saving faith in Jesus Christ, all men are stand under the condemnation and the wrath of God. Such men are utterly without hope. Later on in the book, in Romans 9-11, Paul talks about how some people are destined to wrath while others are not, and Paul worries over his Jewish brethren and wishes himself to undergo eternal separation from Christ if it would but save his brethren.

And again, without even cracking open my Bible, I appeal to the 6 passages in Hebrews which warn about the dangers of falling away from the faith, and how there awaits nothing but terrifying judgment for those who do.

Time doesn't afford me the opportunity to appeal to what Peter, John, James, and Jude had to say on the subject matter either.

And while the OT doesn't have a lot of teaching on the eternal fate of the wicked, I know for certain that Moses, the Psalms, and Isaiah speak of the matter.

And for what its worth, the "dilemma" of Calvinism and Arminianism isn't solved by universalism. The debate surrounding the two camps has to do with the relationship of election and free will. Even if both schools of thought conceeded that everybody will be saved in the end, that still doesn't sidestep the issue of election and free will.

Okay, finally to a computer!

But as it is, what you have said here is not true. Without even cracking open my Bible, and just thinking off the top of my head, I can think of how the first five chapters of Romans are dedicated to showing how apart from having a saving faith in Jesus Christ, all men are stand under the condemnation and the wrath of God.

Here is where everyone misunderstands what the majority of Universalist's actually believe. You are absolutely right about the first five chapters of Romans. You are absolutely right that faith in Jesus Christ is the only way for someone to be saved. Evangelical Universalist's, and especially myself, would never deny that, ever! But the question is "will God persist until all men profess Christ as Lord to the saving of their soul?"

Romans 5:18 goes on to say, "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men." (NASB)

Paul also mentions over in Phillipians that one day "every knee will bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the father." Could that be to the saving of all men in light of Romans 10:9 "if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;"?

So a different understanding of these scriptures is no reason to label someone a heretic.

Such men are utterly without hope.

"Three things will last forever—faith, hope, and love—and the greatest of these is love." 1Cor. 13:13 (NLT)

I know that could be a weak translation, but will God create a situation without hope? After all "His mercy endures forever".

Later on in the book, in Romans 9-11, Paul talks about how some people are destined to wrath while others are not, and Paul worries over his Jewish brethren and wishes himself to undergo eternal separation from Christ if it would but save his brethren.

You're right Paul does sorrow for them, they will face judgment, Paul does wish to be cursed (giving you the benefit of the doubt, he could mean eternally) from Christ, but never says that could happen to him.

But continue to read on and Paul regains his hope when he says, Romans 11:26, "and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, 'THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." and Romans 11:32 "For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all."

And then ending Ch.11 with this great declaration v.36 "For from Him and through Him and to Him are ALL things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen."

Could he be referring to fact that God will restore ALL things one day? (Acts 3:21)

And for what its worth, the "dilemma" of Calvinism and Arminianism isn't solved by universalism. The debate surrounding the two camps has to do with the relationship of election and free will. Even if both schools of thought conceeded that everybody will be saved in the end, that still doesn't sidestep the issue of election and free will.

The issue is also "does God get what God wants?" Will His purposes be accomplished? The Calvinist says yes,but He doesn't really want to save everybody. The Arminian must say no, He wants to save everybody, but can't. The Universalist says yes, God will acclomplish His desire to save all men!

My aim is only to defend Universalism as NON-HERETICAL. It has a very much BIBLICAL support. There is also so much more to be said, but I will save for further conversation.

God's peace,
Willy

bro-willy. Respectfully, you are stretching the scriptures pretty severely to get where you are.

Respectfully again... This is what a lot of the cults (JW, LDS, etc...) do. They take parts of scripture and try to twist them into what they want them to say.

My friend. I do have to ask you to please, please, please pray on this. There are eternal consequences for actions. If maybe one "little one" can stumble from reading what you write, what scriptual fate awaits you?

Pilgrim,

Christian Universalism, Evangelical Universalism or whatever you want to call it, does not deny the reality of Satan or Hell. It is the belief that Satan may have deceived man, but he will NOT have the ultimate victory, because God will eventually, THROUGH CHRIST, reconcile His entire creation back to Himself and restore it to His good pleasure (Colossians 1:15-20).

Afterall, if God has saved us all regardless of how we live, why should we preach Christ or live holy lives?

Are you saying that the fear of eternal torment in Hell is the only reason you preach and live holy? I don't think you really believe that. Evangelical Universalist's believe in hell and judgment, just that's God's purpose for it isn't to eternally torture His creature, but to burn away the dross, purify, and restore them (save them by fire 1Cor. 3:15).

God is "making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth." Eph. 1:9-10

Hi bro_willy,

Do you believe Satan is a spiritual being?

Do you believe that we are either conformed to the image of Christ or the image of Satan?

How are those that are conformed to the image of Satan and die in that image/condition then become regenerated spiritually after they are dead and become part of the family of the redeemed? Where is that teaching?

Thanks,
Pilgrim

The Bible says, "It is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgement". Heb 9:27

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Please note that Heb 9:28 says "UNTO THEM THAT LOOK FOR HIM".

bro-willy, not all men do look unto Him. Most reject Him.

Jesus Christ and eternal life are synonymous terms so if you reject Jesus Christ you reject eternal life. If you are not possessing eternal life right now (Jesus Christ) then you won't magically get it after you die. Eternal Life is SOMEONE you apprehend in this life with your own two feet on the ground. The dying and the giving is the Lord's but the receiving must be done by us.

Jesus waits to be RECEIVED and does not force Himself on men.
John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, AND YE RECEIVE ME NOT: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Would you deny the fact that many men reject Jesus Christ?

bro-willy. Respectfully, you are stretching the scriptures pretty severely to get where you are.

Respectfully again... This is what a lot of the cults (JW, LDS, etc...) do. They take parts of scripture and try to twist them into what they want them to say.

My friend. I do have to ask you to please, please, please pray on this. There are eternal consequences for actions. If maybe one "little one" can stumble from reading what you write, what scriptual fate awaits you?

Sincerely Thank you Miccah! I don't take this lightly, and if what you say is true then I am stumbling and I need help. I would just like to dig, and discuss, and ask questions. Please if you feel that way participate in the discussion. Let us reason together. But what if we are separating, calling heretics, and warring against brothers and sisters (Universalists) who Jesus said we should be loving and fellowshipping with. Will that not be just as bad for those who sow discord among the brethren?

I'm not going to get into the discussion really, there are plenty of others that will do a much better job than I, but i would urge you to really put your scriptures in context. 1 Cor. 3:15 is not talking about people going to hell and being restored/purified, but about the works that we do will be made manifest one day and if they are works of our own they will burn away, but if works towards God they will be rewarded.

Pilgrim,

Yes, I believe Satan is a real life spiritual being, seeking whom he may devour, seeking to claim men as his own, but could it be that the stronger man has (or will) tie up the strong man and carry off all his possesions? That Jesus will be the ultimate Victor and reconcile all people to Himself? Could it be that He will leave the 99 and go after the 1 until He finds it, and not stop until He accomplishes what He has set out to do?

Do you believe all men bear God's image? That God loves all men, and desires all to be saved?

Yes I know men reject Christ now, and so do Universalist's, but what about the promise that EVERY knee will bow, and EVERY tongue confess Jesus Christ as Lord?

I am not claiming to be a Universalist.

But wouldn't that be a wonderful thing if it is true?

Do you not long for all men to be saved?

Let's study the scriptures to see if maybe we've missed something!

I'm not going to get into the discussion really, there are plenty of others that will do a much better job than I, but i would urge you to really put your scriptures in context. 1 Cor. 3:15 is not talking about people going to hell and being restored/purified, but about the works that we do will be made manifest one day and if they are works of our own they will burn away, but if works towards God they will be rewarded.

Thank you. I will study that out. My mind is being fried right now trying to respond to everyone's post lol. Perhaps I shouldn't have quoted that without looking further into it.

Thank you. I will study that out. My mind is being fried right now trying to respond to everyone's post lol. Perhaps I shouldn't have quoted that without looking further into it.

But that goes the same for both sides. Other's are quoting scriptures to mean 'eternal torment' are not in such a context, and actually say no such thing!

Also this warning if we do not take this discussion seriously: Imagine the consequences of telling people God will send them to a place of burning torment, without hope, for all eternity, if it were not so!

Also to those who are arguing for Eternal Conscious Torment. I hope you do not pass a person on the street without warning them of such a fate. I hope you do not dare look a person in the eye and fail to mention the what lies ahead for them! What a horrible thing, what lack of compassion and love to not warn every human being of the dreadful, dark, painful, hopeless future that awaits them if they do not turn from their sin!

I shudder to think such a weight could be on my shoulders.

That is why I am very serious about being serious about studying Universalism.

Quote: """Do you believe all men bear God's image? That God loves all men, and desires all to be saved?"""

Image and Nature are two things different. Image is breathe of Life, no nature.

Nature is God given by birth. Christ birthed in the Believer is From a Father, not a creator.

If Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world, why did He only choose 8 to come through the flood, why not universally save all.

God must put a nature in His own son's, as He did with His only begotten, Jesus Christ and it is His nature, Jesus Christ that is birthed in every son of God. The Father chooses who He will be a Father to, a creator gives life and shows that created being cannot choose the nature of the Father, man can only choose nature by another created being, which was satan, when Adam chose to believe a lie and we all became the son's of satan, birds of a feather flocking together and it takes a God Nature to produce son's of God nature, of whom He is a Father. Universlaists will have to take it up with God, of why they were not saved with all men as they claim. "Who are you O' man who tells God what to do". The potter is the Father of all that are birthed with His nature in them, Jesus Christ, born again in them, are born of the incorruptable Seed of the Father, "THE WORD" John 1. Fit for destruction are all those born/created into another created being by choice, satan. Every knee will bow to Jesus Christ but every knee will not be a son of God.

In Christ: Phillip by our Father giving birthe to His Son in me and making me a son also. God's choice, not mine. A father cannot consult with his offspring until he is born and can then understand his own nature. Satan hides his fatherhood, God reveals His nature in the believer. "Christ in you the hope of Glory" "It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me" "The life I now live I live by the faith of the Son of God." Col 1:26-28 Gal 2:20 He who lives is not my life and nature, not universalism salvation but Eph 1:4. by birthing from a Father, who is "Our Father".

Hi bro_willy,

Of course it would be wonderful if all men are saved. But, that implies that all men would repent and love Jesus Christ. No one desires that more than the Lord. But, God proved to Adam and Eve that He keeps His promises. Yes?

When they sinned they died immediately, just as God promised. They died spiritually and it would only be a matter of time before they died physically.

Every knee will bow some day. That is certainly a promise that will come to pass. Some will bow to Him and do it willingly just as they willingly follow the Lord now.

Others will refuse to bow to Him just as they do now, however they will be unable to resist bowing to Him and acknowledging He is truly Lord, someday. Some will bow hoping it is not too late to be saved.

Pilgrim

bro_willy,

I missed something. God does not love all men. That is a false gospel as far as I can tell. God hates sinners and His wrath abides on them unless they run to His Son, Jesus Christ.

Psa 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

He does not hate them as creatures or living beings but as sinners. As men that have aligned themselves with Satan and against His Son, Jesus Christ. If God love the sinner then there is no need for a mediator and there should be peace between men and God. But we both know that is not correct.

Can John 3:36 be any clearer to you? If you have the Son, you have Life, if you don't have the Son you don't have life and God's wrath will be on you. Does this say that God loves sinners? God loves those who have put their trust in Jesus but desires that all men will be saved. That does mean they will be, though.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

I think if you would re-study and ask the Holy Spirit to help you to understand what Jesus came to save us from, that you would see.

I will be praying for you but I think there is ample information on the Web for you to look at and ultimately what you believe will come down to your own heart before the Lord.

God bless,
Pilgrim

God does not love all men.

Pilgrim,

I do disagree with you for it was because God so loved the world that He sent His Son!

There is much more to be said about this, and I will respond perhaps Monday.

Thank you everyone for joining the discussion.

I am out for the weekend.

God's grace and peace to all.

Bless you too, bro.

You may want to go over these scriptures.

Does God hate anyone? The answer is yes.

•Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; THOU DOST HATE ALL WHO DO INIQUITY,"

•Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence HIS SOUL HATES"

•Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I HAVE ABHORRED THEM."

•Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which THE LORD HATES, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."

•Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I CAME TO HATE THEM THERE! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels."

Universalists will say that God loves everyone, but the Bible would disagree and God's nature and character does, too. He only loves those who put their faith in His Son.

This is how serious sin is and how much God hates it.

"Sin is not to be ignored, nor minimised. It is the most patent fact in life, the darkest experience in the history of the race. It is the root of all the world's tragedies. It is that which makes "conscience a thousand swords," "the torture of an inward hell," "the worm that doth begnaw the soul." (James M. Campbell. The Heart of Gospel: A Popular Exposition of the Atonement. Fleming H. Revell Co. 1907. pg 47.)

God is very serious about sin and will not allow that which is unholy, perverted, evil and unregenerate to fellowship with Him and His children for eternity.

Bro_Willy,

The scriptures are pretty clear on this and I think that you really have to do harm to God's character and to twist the scriptures into showing ultimate reconciliation.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Respectfully,
Pilgrim

Quote: """I do disagree with you for it was because God so loved the world that He sent His Son!"""

There is a stipulation for this Love sent into the world.

He that believeth on Him is not condemned, but he that believeth not is condemned already.

This is the condemnation; we don't believe. The light came into the world and men loved darkness rather than light. because all our deeds are evil.

They don't want to come to the light because their evil will be reproved. But He that doeth the truth comes to the light and that all his deeds are wrought in God.

Which no man can do unless God brings him to the light that we might believe.

They that are in darkness are not compatable with those that are in The Light, How could they be saved? God is true and He only gives rebirth to those He brings to the Light for none would come of their own accord, and none will be lost that are given to Jesus Christ who is the Light. He came to His own and they received Him not and crucified Him on a Cross.

In Christ: Phillip

bro-willy,
You seem to quote half scripture or just twist them the way you want to hear them. You seem to think that at the end of time every knee will bow to Jesus in Heaven, as all will be there whether they are followers of Jesus or not. The fact is all will bow their knee as there will be no denying the fact that He is Lord of all. Philippians 2:9-11 says " Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place and gave Him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in HEAVEN and ON EARTH and UNDER THE EARTH, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father." The fact is Satan and all who have followed Him from the beginning of time will one day bow their knee to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords even though they will be in a fire that can not be quenched.

In Christ Steve

As one who has a passion to preach the gospel on the streets, I cannot see how UR would give me the same urgency to get this message out to the lost, or the same compassion for lost souls. If UR is true, there should be no real urgency to get the gospel out, since all will be saved. If UR is true, there is no need to weep over lost souls because eventually they will be saved.

No dear friend, UR is straight from the pit of hell and you should flee from it as far as you can. "Flee the wrath to come!" is God's warning to a lost humanity.

Amen Oracio

Since this thread is quickly exploding, and a single post could easily become a mile long, forgive me if I am very selective in what I choose to respond to:

Evangelical Universalist's believe in hell and judgment, just that's God's purpose for it isn't to eternally torture His creature, but to burn away the dross, purify, and restore them

And this statement right here amplifies a root problem in universalism, and all the shades it comes in. Statements such as this ultimately undermine the doctrine of justification by faith, and it cuts down the tree upon which Christ died.

For the idea here is that eventually, after spending enough time being judged and in hell, God in his mercy will allow you to have eternal life in the kingdom of God. The problem with this idea is that it ultimately teaches a works based salvation, and finds salvation in something besides Christ alone. It teaches Jesus plus something else ultimately atones for sin, and makes salvation possible. That is, because Jesus died for your sins, should you fail to trust Him alone in this life, if you just spend the right amount of time in hell in the next life, God will purge you of your sins and make you fit for eternity.

The problem with this idea is:

1) Atonement was made by Christ, and Christ alone. Because He suffered the eternal wrath of God on the cross in our place, through the obedience of the One our sin was taken care of. His blood alone can cleanse. There is no cleansing effect to the fires of hell. They are there to torment you, and punish you, not to purify you. The blood of Christ alone can purify you, cleanse you, wash you, and make you whole.

2) If you are granted eternal life because you suffer for an unspecified time in hell, then mercy ceases to be mercy. Instead eternal life becomes a wage you earn through suffering for your sins. Mercy is treating somebody other than they deserve. If your suffering in hell will release you from hell, then you are being treated according to what you have earned, and not other than what you deserve.

3) By saying a sinner can finally be accepted by God because they have suffered through hell, you are creating a works based system that requires certain prerequisites be met prior to God justifying you. You are teaching, "If you get all cleaned up, God will accept you." The fact of the matter is, Romans teaches just the opposite. Romans teaches that God is the one who "justifies the ungodly." He doesn't justify those who have first purified themselves by suffering enough in hell. He is the One who justifies ungodly sinners. He doesn't justify those who have paid the price. He justifies the ones who are still debtors. And He does this because Christ alone was perfect, and Christ alone could pay the price.

4) And how does God justify sinners? By means of unmerited favor that comes through faith alone, because of the merits of Christ alone. When a sinner puts faith in Christ, and faith alone, in that instant God declares that man to be righteous. God justifies in that moment, the ungodly. Instead of charging a man as guilty, He declares the man not guilty, and in right standing. And because he now owes nothing on his debt, and because his crimes have been forgiven, and because he is now in good standing with God, this man now has eternal life, for peace has now been made for the man with the God who was angry at him. Man is not declared righteous because He has paid enough of a price in hell. Man is declared righteous, not because of anything he has done, but because of what Christ alone has done.

5) A purified nature is not the basis of our acceptance with God. Rather, because we have been accepted by God, our nature is purified. When God declares you and I righteous on the basis of faith because of what Christ accomplished, not only are we made positionally righteous, but we are given a brand new nature. We are given a new heart and a new mind. What God declares us to be, we actually become. We are actually made righteous by the very word God declares. This righteous nature doesn't come about by suffering, but rather, it comes about by means of the power of God's word when He declares you to be righteous. The word He speaks to us actually cleanses us.

And because of these things, I must treat all who preach otherwise as enemies of the gospel of Christ. They are not my brethren, and I will not accept them in anyway as being anything other than false, heretical, and damned.

Amen to that, Oracio.

How about, if UR is true, there is no reason to walk with Christ since you don't have to walk with Christ to be saved. No reason to repent or be born-again or live holy lives.

The fact that all will bow to Christ is not synonymous with ALL being saved. How can it be?

Pilgrim

kingjimmy wrote:
Universalism is a doctrine that is not clearly taught in Scripture at all.

God bless,
Lisa

That is true, Lysa.

They have many scriptures that say UR is taught.

I know brothers that believe this and I don't call them heretics.

They should be engaged intelligently and respectfully and the scriptures can be searched together "to see if these things are so."

I think we should cool it on the "heretical" stuff and engage in love and peace. This is a forum afterall and no one is being asked into our homes.

Pilgrim

Dear heavens.

The Church in Galatia "had their Scriptures" too. If Paul was ready to wash his hands of them for believing you must seal your salvation by means of circumcision, I can only imagine how he would have treated somebody for being so deceived as to believe the fires of hell could purge you of your sins. Absolutely ludicrous.

Jimmy, I thank God for you always, and especially this last post.

The deception of this doctrine is destroying the Cross of Christ and the Revelation of the Christ in us, it truly is heretical and dammed and most certainly false.

Galatians 1:15-16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

I takes a revelation from God to reveal Jesus Christ in the believer, that is why they don't see, they have no eyes or ears for the truth of Jesus Christ and His epitomy of the cost He paid to present us to the Father perfect in Himself.

No fire of Hell can do this.

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

No law can make what God has condemned to Hell damnation come out of being justified by staying in the fire for eternity even.

Thanks for your Post.

In Christ: Phillip

Exactly Phillip. It's all about a revelation of the Cross

It is definitely false teaching, another Gospel.

The "straight paths of the Lord" are being made "crooked" by this doctrine.

It is an opportunity to show with the scriptures why UR is false, which will be instructive to many readers who don't know anything about it.

That's all I was saying. Perhaps the person would change his mind. However, if he is a propagator and teacher of this false doctrine (which Peter does call heresy) then most likely he will not change his mind though the truth is being presented to him by many.

Pilgrim

Hello everyone. There is so much being said that I just couldn't resist responding. I hope to respond to the comments about motivation for evangelism, God 's love and others later this week when I have access to a computer. But for now I'll just speak to KingJimmy.

KingJimmy,

I'm only on my phone, so I cannot use the quotes you made.
You are misunderstanding a very important part, and that may be my fault for not being clear.

Christian Universalists believe:

1 Cor. 15:22,23 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. Each in his OWN ORDER... its goes on to say Christ first then those who belong to Him then He will reign until all are subject to Him! He will defeat death and when death dies all will live, but each in its own order. Not all will experience life this side of the grave, not all will be subject to Christ this side of the grave, not all will be blessed to take part in the first resurrection, but the Universalist hope is that one day all will live, and that doesnt fit well with the "heaven or hell. The end." theology (which is the 'lens' by which you read the scriptures).

1 Corinthians 15:25-27 NASB
For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.

It's through Christ, through Christ, through Christ that all things will be reconciled to God. Universalism is very Christ centered! If it is heretical its for making too much of what Christ accomplished on the cross.

The judgment and hell then are not just to punish sins, but too restore the sinner to subjection to Christ, who was the propitiation for our sins, and not ours only but the whole world. To make them so thirsty that they would drink the water of life that is freely given. Maybe that's why there is a river flowing out of the city, whose gates never shut? And the call to take the water of life in Revelation?

Christian Universalism is the belief that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. God desires all men to be saved, and God does what he pleases. So He was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself through His death, burial and resurrection. That He will not fail to do.

This brings the urgency of joy to evangelism rather than fear. Yes, weep for those who may suffer judgment and hell until they finally submit to Christ. Plead with them to turn to Christ now and experience His abundant life and the promise of the Holy Spirit. All of which is made available through the cross.

There is so much more that can be said and perhaps I didn't answer your response fully, but how can such a belief be heretical?

God's blessing,
Willy

QUOTE:
"the fellowship was good, some of the teachings were very good,"

This is how false doctrine will find a home in the minds and hearts of sincere people. They offer an acceptance that is warm, a feel-good experience. If a person could see the barbed hook in the midst of the doctrine, they would run as far as they could, but the devil does not work that way. He works with reason, logic; appeals to the selfish instincts of a person, his self-esteem, if you will.

Thanks for sharing your testimony, Approved.

Hi bro_willy,

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

And this "ALL" is qualified in 1 Cor 15:23. Indeed, the Bible qualifies what it says in many places. There is no confusion about what the Bible says about the destiny of the righteous and unrighteous.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward THEY THAT ARE CHRIST'S at his coming.

"They that are Christ's".

And when you look at the rest of the Scriptures, because you cannot isolate a few scriptures to create a doctrine when they don't agree with other scriptures you will see who "are Christ's".

Those that receive Him are Christ's and we know that not all men receive Christ.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and YE RECEIVE ME NOT: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Many will be sons but not ALL.

Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many (did not say all men) sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

The problem with the Universalists is that they ignore large portions of Scriptures while isolating others and impose their eisegesis on the scriptures.

There is clearly a resurrection unto damnation.

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have
done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (KJV)

Some will be resurrected to everlasting contempt.

Dan 12:2
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Not ALL are written in the Book of Life

Rev 20:12, 15
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another
book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were
written in the books, according to their works.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (KJV)

The nations shall be separated and many will be consigned to everlasting fire.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then
shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

The Wicked will be severed (separated) from the Just.

Matthew 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Matthew 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Hell is not just for the Devil and his angels but for ungodly men.

2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

More judgment of the ungodly (Jude is talking about ungodly men). Devils by implication are already ungodly and are never called "ungodly".

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jude 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire, and this ain't Purgatory (which is a Catholic myth).

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Where all the dead are raised. Those not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. Those found in the book will inherit the eternal kingdom of God.

Rev 21:1-8
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

But those not in the book:

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (KJV)

The second death. The bible is not a compilation of mixed up views that don't agree with one another. It is completely unified in all of its teaching and expresses but one view. The Bible teaches the resurrection and judgement of all and that there will be two and only two destinies for all men. One destiny for the righteous (in Christ) and one destiny for the unrighteous on the day of judgment.

Both of these destinies are eternal:

Matt 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (KJV)

What do you do with all of these Scriptures, bro_willy?

Pilgrim

bro-willy,

It seems that you have made up your mind on what you believe. All I see here is a defense of the Universal doctrine.

I do implore you to not be swayed by what the world wants Christianity to be, but for what Lord says it is.

I am removing myself from this thread. Be blessed my friend.

Miccah,

I will admit that I struggle with the idea of eternal conscious torment, in light of the fact that in all the scriptures there is little mention of what would be a horrendous fate . Annihilation seems more likely than ECT.

I have not made up my mind concerning Universalism, but defend it as a very possible option, and that men like Rob Bell and others who are being slandered and called names should not be dismissed as being heretics rather than Christian brothers who are just being honest about questions they have. I desire to see more of us more eager to love, even our enemies, much more brothers, than we are to tear down.

Not to mention the fact that so many who claim to the believe ECT seem to be so little concerned for the people going there.

The fruits I've seen from many of those brothers and sisters in the UR camp are nothing short of Christlike.

Pilgrim,

Those are good verses to point out. While I'm not able to respond to them now, for lack of resources available. I recommend you go to youtube and check out the universalism debate between Jason Pratt and turretinfan. Excellent stuff! Many of those verses mentioned.

(Edited)

pilgram777 wrote:
Universalism or Ultimate Reconciliation has been making inroads more and more into mainstream Christianity and it is driven by major changes in our culture (political correctness, don't judge people) to bring the Church into slumber. Afterall, if God has saved us all regardless of how we live, why should we preach Christ or live holy lives? Of course, it is really driven and propagated from the bowels of Hell by Satan himself.

Brother, you can tell the signs of the time and that it definitely shows the true spirit of prophecy is lacking in the Church because we wouldn’t have all these ‘bandwagons’ of different beliefs. In 1 Corinthians 14.24 But if ALL prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: And THUS ARE THE SECRETS OF HIS HEART MADE MANIFEST; AND SO FALLING DOWN ON HIS FACE HE WILL WORSHIP GOD, and report that God is in you of a truth.

Where is the true Spirit of prophesy to answer all these bandwagons?

God bless,
Lisa

Hi bro_willy,

Like Miccah, I have said all that I need to say or want to say on this subject. I don't feel compelled to investigate Universalism anymore than I already have.

The Scriptures and the Lord Jesus Himself are very clear on this subject. I have heard people say the Jesus and the Apostles were superstitious and just believed old superstitions of their day. That would mean that Jesus did not tell us the whole truth, then. In that respect He would have misled and deceived us and that would have disqualifed Him from accomplishing our redemption as the sinless Son of God.

Therefore, I believe Jesus was crystal clear on what He said and that was His intention. I see no ambiguity at all in His statements and no one talked more about Hell and everlasting judgment than He.

Likewise, there is no firm teaching on annihilation. The Scriptures seem very clear to me also on everlasting punishment.

If we love men we will not lie to them, will we?

It is not Christlike to lie to men and withhold the truth from them. If you want to know what Christlike is, look at Christ's life and words again in the NT and observe how He was not consumed with winning a popularity contest. Telling the Pharisees that their father is the devil is not exactly Dale Carnegie's teaching on "How to Influence People and Win Friends", but that's not what Jesus was about.

I am glad that Jesus shoots straight with us.

If you love God and love people, tell them the truth. This is the only life you can make a decision to choose Christ.

I too am pulling myself out of this thread.

Thanks for the conversation and I am glad you have not made up your mind yet.

Pilgrim

Willy

If it is heretical its for making too much of what Christ accomplished on the cross.

Actually, it is heretical for making too little of what Christ did on the cross. Far from being cross affirming, it is actually cross denying. And I can no more accept this view as as being in anyway Christian than I can accept the view the Galatians were espousing. It must be utterly opposed.

bro_willy:

I do not know what has already been said as I have not taken the time to read the rest of this thread (perhaps that is poor form but I am pressed for time). I would like to make a few comments.

If I understand universalism correctly one of its tenets is that all religious roads are valid paths to enter into the kingdom of God, i.e. that Hinduism, Christianity, Islam, or any other religion is equally valid as long as one believes in a God and follows that belief with a "pure" heart. Unfortunately this idea is totally contradictory to very explicit teachings of Jesus Christ. He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by me." He condemned the devoutly religious Jews and told them their Father was the devil. Now these people were very devout and kept the tenets of Judaism with their whole heart. The Bible tells us that there is no other name than Jesus mentioned in heaven or in earth whereby we must be saved. Christianity is exclusive by its own very clear teachings. Therefore one cannot be a Christian and a universalist at the same time. The two are mutually exclusive belief systems. That is, if I believe there are many ways to enter the kingdom of God then I cannot be a Christian for the teachings of true Christianity oppose universalism, and if I am a Christian I cannot be a universalist without turning my back on the teachings of Christianity which would make me no longer a Christian.

One of Rob Bells teachings, if I understand correctly, is that there is no hell. He no doubt points to the fact that if God really is a God of love then He would not send people to Hell to be destroyed by fire, or punished eternally depending on your particular interpretation of the nature of Hell. There are two points to be make here I think. First, Hell is real and Hell is a place of fire, torment, and destruction. Scripture is very clear about this. No amount of bending and twisting can make this fact go away unless one chooses to, by some deception, simply ignore these very clear scriptural teachings. Second is the nature of love. Allow me to use an analogy. I can say that the law enforcement personnel in my area good. Suppose a burglar breaks through my door in the middle of the night shouting that he is about to kill my wife and I and brandishing a weapon. Suppose I pick up a gun and shoot this burglar, wounding him and saving my wife from harm. My act of judgment on the burglar is an act of love to my wife. The police arrive and the burglar is hauled off to jail while I am vindicated in my actions. The burglar is then sentenced to prison for attempting to kill my wife while I continue to live a free man. You see, the act of sending the burglar away is a good and righteous act by law enforcement for the burglar has done what is evil. To define love in such a way that no justice or judgement is done makes love meaningless and makes right and wrong without definition.

bro_willy, I would strongly advise you to burn your book by Rob Bell, and stop studying universalism or any other ism. Turn back to the Bible and begin to prayerfully study it daily. Universalism is a deception whose unfortunate end is the very Hell it seeks to avoid.

bro_willy:

OK, I read all of the posts. I see better what your issue is. I must say that Rob Bell and the "Christian" universalists have woven a subtle web comprised of many verses taken out of Biblical context. As has already been stated it is the mark of many cults and also of sincere believers who are off into some form of error or another to get a picture of God or of doctrine in their mind and then seek scriptures to "prove" their doctrines. I am increasingly of the opinion that the term "proof text" should never enter into the language of a believer as it is almost always the mark of trying to prop up a man-made idea.

Brother, let me address one verse you quoted earlier but I would like to put it into context and look at what is being said.

Php 2:1-12
(1) If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
(2) Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
(3) Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
(4) Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
(5) Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
(6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
(7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
(8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
(9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
(10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
(11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
(12) Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

We need to put this verse in its proper context of the letter of which it is an integral part and also in the context of the overall teaching of the New Testament. Paul says that there is coming a day in which every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God. Now lets talk about what this does and does not say. First it says that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. It does not say that the people who bow and confess will be righteous or accepted of God on that day. We have clear history in the gospels and in Acts of people with demonic spirits proclaiming that Jesus is God and that Paul was filled with the power of God. As I stated earlier there will be those in the last days who say, "Lord, Lord" and they will be told, "depart from me ye workers of iniquity." In Matt. we find Jesus separating the good from the evil and saying, "Mat 25:41
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:". Peter writes, "2Pe 3:7
(7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

In verse 12 of Philippians, the next verse, we find Paul saying that we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Why? If all will be saved what is there to fear if it is not the wrath and judgement of God.

Brother, do this with all of the verses that Bell puts forth as proofs of his doctrine. They will not stand the test of contextual scrutiny. Our brother Oracio was right when he advised you to flee from this thing. Many refer to it as heresy because believing in it can and will lead ultimately to a denial of the Lord and loss of salvation. I believe it is heresy and I would strongly encourage you to flee from it.