Woman Teaching, Minor or Major doctrine?

I am currently trying to find a church. I am pretty knowledgeable on major and minor doctrines (by that I mean the essentials versus the non essentials as it relates to the soteriology). However, I ran into a congregation whose pastor seems pretty level headed concerning the gospel, but he allows a woman to teach in his Sunday school. Do you think this is good reason to not join a church? How about leave one? If so, why?

Thanks for your help.

Wow. In my opinion, tough question.

I will say this. I believe that scripture says that a man is to lead in the palce of worship and in small groups.

At the same time I would be blind to say that there are not women who are great in a teaching role.

The question always boils down to this (with me), Does ability (as in a women preaching...good at times I may add) trump order (as in scripture teaching that it is a man's place to teach and not a women).

Order wins out.

What ever you do, please obey the Spirit as He leads you.

Blessings!

warriorofgod wrote:
However, I ran into a congregation whose pastor seems pretty level headed concerning the gospel, but he allows a woman to teach in his Sunday school. Do you think this is good reason to not join a church? How about leave one? If so, why?

God bless,
Lisa

Q. Woman Teaching, Minor or Major doctrine?

A. Major doctrine

1 Timothy 2:11-14 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

The greek word hēsuchia is translated into the english word silence in verses 11 and 12 above. This greek word is used only 4 times in the New Testament. It is also translated silence in Acts 22:2. It is translated quietness in 2 Thess. 3:12.

A woman may be in the transgression as she assumes the role of teaching the Word of God in the assembly(church),yet the assembly(especially the men) is in the transgression for hearkening to her.

Isaiah 3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they who lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

It all goes back to Genesis;

Genesis 3:17 "And to Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened to the voice of thy wife..."

Genesis 16:2 And Sarai said to Abram, Behold, now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee go in to my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.

The subtilty of the serpent is behind this Major erroneous doctrine of women in leadership roles. It's not Eve alone being beguiled now,but whole households and assemblies.

2 Cor. 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

1 Cor. 14:34 Let yourp women be keeping silent in the assemblies, for it has not been permitted to them to be speaking, but to be subjecting themselves, just as also the Law says. But if they desire to learn anything, let them be questioning their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful [or, shameful] [for] women to be speaking in an assembly.

1 Cor. 14:34 Let the women in the ecclesias hush, for it is not permitted to them to speak, but let them be subject, according as the law, also is saying, "Now, if they want to learn anything, let them be inquiring of their own husbands at home, for it is a shame for a woman to be speaking in the ecclesia."

Q. Do you think this is good reason to not join a church? How about leave one? If so, why?

A. See all of the above

Hearken to the voice of His Spirit in His Word.
Do it now.
Don't delay.

May God lead you to the greener pastures.

Savannah wrote:
A woman may be in the transgression as she assumes the role of teaching the Word of God in the assembly(church),yet the assembly(especially the men) is in the transgression for hearkening to her.

All your verses are like the ones who are against tongues use to try and prove that tongues died away with the last Apostle... and they are too late to tell me because I’ve had the gifts of tongues for twenty-five years.

And you are too late to tell me that women can’t preach because even as Mark 16.17 says “And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.” I am a witness of the Lord using women and then confirming with her word with signs following for the men that was there as well as for the women.

God bless,
Lisa

Lysa.

Your speaking ability vs. order. Do women have the ability to teach? Yes. Should they be teaching men? No. Godly order.

It is scriptual that women do not teach men, and to say that it is not scriptual, is to teach against scripture itself.

As a female I would feel uncomfortable to have a female teach a mixed group of adult men and women.

Women are also given the gift of teaching but it is to be done in its proper place. Titus 2 gives us guidelines for it. 1Corinthians 11 teaches us what a woman should do to enhance her ability to prophesy. The Scripture has a lot to say on this issue. But having said that, it does behoove a female to be a student of the WORD lest anyone, including males would work to lead her astray via false doctrine or anything else that tempts a person.

There are too many males (and females) in position of leadership who are there mostly as administrators or to exercise authority over others who know nothing about walking with the LORD. This makes submission for the godly woman very difficult when this become obvious. When this happens you will just have to lean back in the arms of the Savior and bask in his protective care and leadership.

Warrior, to answer your question, I would keep looking, leaning on the Holy Spirit for guidance. He is more interested in you finding the right brotherhood then you are.

God bless.

Miccah wrote:
Your speaking ability vs. order. Do women have the ability to teach? Yes. Should they be teaching men? No. Godly order.

It is scriptual that women do not teach men, and to say that it is not scriptual, is to teach against scripture itself.

In my previous post, I was explaining that I have experienced firsthand God confirming a woman’s preaching (word) with signs following; the majority of men don’t even have that in their ministry. I don't know why God chose these women but I know that He did.

If God was a stickler like you seem to think He is, I daresay He would not have confirmed her word with signs, now would He? So that proves to me that He doesn’t get near bent out of shape about it as you people (who are against it), seem to; so I’m not getting bent out of shape either. (I say that with the upmost respect and not smart-alecky)

God bless you,
Lisa

I am sure you already know the scriptures which absolutely forbid such heresies and I see many of those scriptures have been posted by someone else as well in case if you forgot. If you think the foundational commanded order of Christian men and women is a minor doctrine which is acceptable by you to be disobeyed shamelessly or reinterpreted as so many people do on so called Christian forums, then you will no doubt go to that church. I would never enter it.

Everyone must choose to stand for something, or he will stand for anything and more and more be molded into the thinking and unbiblical philosophies of the world, or the shameless manipulations of heretics.

2 Cor 11:14 Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness

Hey Lysa, :-)

Why did the Lord use a donkey to speak to Balaam? It was because Balaam's disobedience. The Lord used what He would to get through to Balaam.

Does the Lord do this now? I would think so, yet, I do not believe (scriptually) that this is the way that the Lord wants things to be done. I think that when men stand up and start being Godly men, we will see a great reduction in the amount of women teaching over men, thus moving mankind back into the harmony that the Lord established between men and women. Since we are fallen, the Lord extends mercy unto us in so many different ways.

Again sister. I do not believe that it is about ability. As you have stated, many women have the ability to teach, preach and such, but that it is not in the order of how the Lord established it from the beginning.

Blessings sister. I do love you in Christ. :-)

Many members on SI believe that today’s churches are facing spiritual darkness. So, you can expect to see numerous flaws in every church, and you will have to decide which ones you can live with, and which ones you can’t live with.

Factors you might consider are: scriptural rootedness, the church’s effectiveness in community ministry, its success in making mature believers, or its ability to nurture children, heal broken marriage or addictions. Music may be a key factor, or legalism… The list could go on and on and on.

Early in his Christian life, Rees Howells, a man who became well known for his prayer life, decided that he would not join any church where God was not answering prayer. That was his most important criteria.

Then there is your purpose for joining a church. If your aim is to serve and edify the people, then which flaws might be a hindrance to your sense of calling?

You are the one who must decide what flaws you can live with and what flaws you cannot accept. Your thread title may suggest what is the most critical factor for you. And yet it may be that God can use and teach you in a church even with this most noticeable “flaw”.

Diane

Thank you all for your inputs. I have taken all your answers into consideration. Though I don't think women teaching is in the major doctrine area (by that I mean it interfere's with soteriology), I do believe it is important to follow Gods created order. For many, this is a much debated subject, but to me the answer is obvious that a woman should not teach over men. I was just never faced with having to bend or "accept" that in a possible church home because I feel that the church is as good as it's going to get for now. Anyway, thank you for the inputs and prayers.

By the way, please don't confront my doctrinal stance by quoting me and countering it. I am not interested in that in this thread. I am simply trying to gain wisdom on whether or not I should go to this church. God bless you all. Love you guys.

The three Major passages which address the subject of this thread are:

1) 1 Corinthians 11:2-16
2) 1 Corinthians 14:33-38
3) 1 Timothy 2:11-15.

In each of these,God's called apostle,Paul,is inspired by the Spirit of Messiah Who created the world to bring our hearts and minds back to the [Genesis]beginning. He does so to show us that this teaching is in accord with the order of the creation account.

1 Cor. 11:7-9 For indeed a man ought not to be having the head covered, being [the] image and glory of God, but a woman is [the] glory of a man. For man is not from woman, but woman from man. [see Gen 2:21-23] For also man was not created for the sake of the woman, but woman for the sake of the man. [see Gen 2:18]

1 Cor. 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches; for it is not permitted to them to speak: but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Note: Re: "...they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law." Paul is referencing Genesis [the beginning] 3:16 where God says,, "thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee". Such is significant of God's appointed authority,rule and government. That which is contrary to that obedience and subjection is no less than rebellion. All such who usurp such authority are in transgression of His Holy Law and Order of women unto men.

1 Tim. 2:13 for Adam was first formed, then Eve.

God has a created order and has set not only the stars in their place,and boundaries for the waters,but for men and women as well. And none can move the stars or the waters but God,nor should there be any attempt by us to alter that authority structure God established for men and women at the time of creation. Any who are of such a mind stand guilty before their Creator.

The objection that these passages are culturally conditioned,and consequently rejected as such, are also removed by Paul when he says, "that
the things which I write to you are the commandments of
the Lord"(1 Corinthians 14:37).

To those who come up with words such as, "And you are too late to tell me that women can’t preach...", my answer is that you are the one who is too late. The Eternal One and His Genesis are before you.

And as one other poster has stated,it's not a question of ability. We are addressing transgressing God's Law and Command from creation.

I'd also reply to such contrary statements to this subject as this, "I am a witness of the Lord using women...", by saying as another poster has also alluded to,that God is above His Law and may make a donkey speak if He will as an exception.

Finally,to those guilty ones who are attempting to trump Scripture with experience,or who may be undermining God's creation order(ignorantly or not I do not know),I say to you consider the above,and also these following words:

It is very plain that he who modifies the teachings of the Word of God in the smallest particular at the dictation of any man-made opinion has already deserted the Christian ground, and is already, in principle, a heretic. The very essence of heresy is that the modes of thought and tenets originating elsewhere than in the Scriptures of God are given decisive weight when they clash with the teachings of
God. (BW)

Although the scripture doth lay a great blot upon women,
and cautioneth man to beware of these fantastical and unstable spirits, yet it limiteth man in his censure: She is only then to be rejected and rebuked, when she doth things unworthy her place and calling. (J. Bunyan)

If anyone doesn't believe that women can teach or preach should then stay FAR away from them!

God bless you all,
Lisa

WarrierofGod, I would be unfair to you if I withheld my own testimony on the matter.

Years ago I was in an evangelical church that strongly opposed female preachers (unless they were missionaries). In time God moved me out, and planted me squarely were I never dreamed I would be: In a church on the other side of the tracks: I was hired as their music director in a rather liberal church. In time, I was invited to preach – why? It was because, apparently, my faith, knowledge, and leadership capacity was perceived as authentic. Mind you, I studied hard and prayed hard – not just for me but for my church family. Oh how I love them!!!

This congregation is definitely “gentile” territory. Conservative believers would be horrified to see what kind of sins I walk amidst every Sunday – even the sin of unbelief.

Not only that - I get invited to preach elsewhere - in the most liberal denomination in Canada. They even ordain homosexuals! Yet the congregation keeps asking me back to preach. Why? Because they are starving for food – and they have found a way to get some.

The caution I set before you, WarrierofGod, has less to do with any church than with yourself. In your concern over matters that trouble your conscience, (and there will be many!) you will be tempted to give priority to the letter of the law to such a degree that the spirit of that law is overshadowed. And then you will fail to live God's calling and purpose for your presence in that church family.

Regarding this gender matter, there is a lack of dialogue related to the spirit behind the “laws”. Not many (on either side of the “tracks”)look beyond the surface. It's far easier simply to go by rules.

Overall, it is always wise to keep God’s highest law in the spotlight: the law of God’s redemptive love for humanity. And as my testimony bears out, that can happen in the context of order and submission to authority even in our “apostate” churches.

Diane

How many MEN here who say a woman should not teach men have listened to a teaching by a woman of God and have learned something? And even helped greatly in their walk?

I have.

I will listen to Jackie Pullinger's teachings anytime just to name one Holy Ghost filled, Believer who knows the Lord and His ways.

Does she exercise authority over me? Not that I can think of.

A woman in Christ has the Spirit of God just like a man. There is neither male nor female in Christ.

If you get legalistic about this then SI would have to take down all their teachings by women, because I guarantee you that many men have listened to many of the teachings by these servants of the Lord (and been blessed, I might add).

Pilgrim

Diane,

Just read your post and it was excellent!!

This is just one more of those instances where we miss the Spirit of the letter and could short change ourselves and others. The letter by itself always kills.

I for one am supremely blessed that SI posts some annointed teachings by Sisters in the Lord and I would not want them to take them down because some did not approve.

Your post contained a good teaching in it as well as many other posts by sisters. There may even be those who don't care for sisters posting either.

My point is that we all teach, when we communicate but when we communicate we don't necessarily exercise authority over others.

I am not concerned whether a teaching is by a man or woman. I listen to it and ask if it is from God.

Pilgrim

Thank you for your uplifting words, Pilgrim. I would like to expand on one of your statements:

but when we communicate we don't necessarily exercise authority over others.

Then again, authority in preaching is vital. Without it the listener sees no need to take the message seriously. If a preacher’s message does not reflect authority in ways that demonstrate credibility, the preacher is merely presenting a nice talk. If a female’s message cannot be accepted as any more than a nice talk, because she is female, she is better to remain silent. That’s better, I believe, than allowing the function of authority to be mocked, or her testimony to be discredited. It does no one any good.

This, to me, is one of MANY REASONS why a debate over whether females can or can’t preach/teach is pointless. Besides, such a debate merely reflects a legalistic frame of thinking. It’s all about what someone can and can’t do. That is an immature level of morality. Don’t get caught up in it!!!! Frankly, a congregation’s view on the matter is not necessarily related to the people's level of spiritual maturity. (in my experience)

One more comment on authority: Our society is desperately in need of authority – not merely of those with designated positions of authority, but those who demonstrate genuine authority in their lives. Wouldn’t you rather receive counsel from someone who really does know his stuff than someone who has the position but is an airhead on the subject?

Likewise, wouldn’t you rather see all Christian women become mature in Christ, showing evidence of spiritual authority through their lives - in spirit and truth and Christian submission? That, I believe is a far more important priority than the issue of roles in the church. Imagine how that would turn our churches upside down for Jesus – never mind our families!!!

How's that for food for thought, WarriorofGod?

Diane

This teaching be John MacArthur helped me immensely. Maybe it could help you all: http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/54-17/gods-high-calling-for-women-part-4

Hey there Diane,

I missed this post of yours. Got to get to work and will reply later. Great points.

Pilgrim

Hi roadsign,

I assume you are referring to authoritarianism – the use of power and control over others. I suspect you see this as destructive, regardless of gender. Luther fought against ecclesial authoritarianism in his day - because it robs people of their freedom of conscience.

Yes, since the only authority any of us have (male or female) is the the authority of the Holy Spirit then yes, I am referring to authoritarianism.

Here is an example of that from Jesus' point of view (His view is the only one that counts).

Matt 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
Matt 20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
Mat 20:27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

When men or women speak, they can most assuredly speak authoritatively as coming from the Lord Himself. And this "authority" is nothing like the authoritarianism that Jesus is speaking of in the preceding verses.

Then again, authority in preaching is vital. Without it the listener sees no need to take the message seriously. If a preacher’s message does not reflect authority in ways that demonstrate credibility, the preacher is merely presenting a nice talk. If a female’s message cannot be accepted as any more than a nice talk, because she is female, she is better to remain silent. That’s better, I believe, than allowing the function of authority to be mocked, or her testimony to be discredited. It does no one any good.

When we are legalist about the "vessel" that the message is coming out of, then we will potentially miss the Lord speaking. It becomes a convenient way to turn away from the truth if we don't like it. But, if we love the truth, then the vessel will not matter to us. "Out of the mouth of babes, God has perfected praise". He is not talking about babies, or male babes is He?

This, to me, is one of MANY REASONS why a debate over whether females can or can’t preach/teach is pointless. Besides, such a debate merely reflects a legalistic frame of thinking. It’s all about what someone can and can’t do. That is an immature level of morality. Don’t get caught up in it!!!! Frankly, a congregation’s view on the matter is not necessarily related to the people's level of spiritual maturity. (in my experience)

Wholeheartedly agree!

One more comment on authority: Our society is desperately in need of authority – not merely of those with designated positions of authority, but those who demonstrate genuine authority in their lives. Wouldn’t you rather receive counsel from someone who really does know his stuff than someone who has the position but is an airhead on the subject?

Our society is desperately in need of people who know Christ (the authority) which often has nothing to do with "positions". If I was an alcoholic, or drug addict or had any other kind of problem, I would much rather be counseled by someone who knows God than by someone who knows how to turn the pages of their "Counseling Manual" to the Alcoholic section and read me a bunch of scriptures. I probably don't need all the scriptures that tell me about strong drink and drunkards. I have come to the counselor because I recognize my problem is alcohol. I already know about that. I need someone who knows God's heart and can help "lay the axe to the root", because I don't know what the root is. A Christian who knows God will also be operating in the spirit of Isaiah 61:3 and be able to help this man or woman.

Likewise, wouldn’t you rather see all Christian women become mature in Christ, showing evidence of spiritual authority through their lives - in spirit and truth and Christian submission? That, I believe is a far more important priority than the issue of roles in the church. Imagine how that would turn our churches upside down for Jesus – never mind our families!!!

I would like to see male and female become mature in Christ (walking in love, walking after the spirit). And the Lord can begin with me.

Great chatting with you,
Pilgrim

Besides, such a debate merely reflects a legalistic frame of thinking. It’s all about what someone can and can’t do. That is an immature level of morality.

“When there’s something in the Bible that churches don’t like, they call it legalism.” - Ravenhill

When we are legalist about the "vessel" that the message is coming out of, then we will potentially miss the Lord speaking.

Pilgrim, Along the same vanity …. in my church there is raging dispute over whether or not lay people should be allowed to baptize and serve communion. I wonder: Why does attention far more readily drift to what is below the neck than above the neck! If it’s not the clerical collar it’s the body parts. Can Satan not uses these pre-occupations to pull our attention away from what is happening in our heads. Surely, he aims to keep us in a state of slumbering stupidity, so he can sabotage the church’s effectiveness in God’s redemptive work in the world.

Or is this symptomatic of divine judgment: “So man will be brought low and mankind humbled…” Is. 5:15

Oh, yes, of course we wish to see male and female together mature in Christ. It happens together in unity. (Eph.)

“When there’s something in the Bible that churches don’t like, they call it legalism.” - Ravenhill

Diane

Miccah wrote 2012/1/7 14:27:
As you have stated, many women have the ability to teach, preach and such, but that it is not in the order of how the Lord established it from the beginning.

Miccah wrote 2012/1/10 10:32:
“When there’s something in the Bible that churches don’t like, they call it legalism.” – Ravenhill

Love ya, Brother!
Lisa

Hey Lisa,

I should have added a period after "preach and such". The next part of the sentence (but that it is not in the order of how the Lord established it from the beginning) is something that I feel is Biblical, but was NOT stated by you. Sorry for not explaining it better.

True. Ravenhill saying something doesn't make it Biblical. Regardless, it is still true. I would assume that you have run into churches like this as well. :-)

Be blessed Lisa.

I would like to reflect on this statement by Miccah

I think that when men stand up and start being Godly men, we will see a great reduction in the amount of women teaching over men …

Yes, men who truly submit the Lord will also become more submissive in their relationships. They will be more able to edify women in godly love. And then women will be less inclined to fill their inadequacies by competing for equality, recognition, and acceptance through ecclesial status and positions.

Sadly, there are many women in today’s church who are trapped in defeat and inferiority through degradation experienced in highly patriarchal churches. It is pointless debating over gender roles while ignoring those wounded through power, domination, and control in our churches –by far done by men. As is already said – major first on the majors – and that is a major! It is worth noting that this is also why some denominations are adamant about allowing female ordination – and even removing all male gender terminologies for God in the hymns. These churches don’t want to further alienate females from God who have been wounded by men and see God as just another of these kind of men. Let’s not mock the heart of this concern – even as we disagree with the solution. (which, again is highly legalistic - to me)

If we can look past the legal fine print, the letter of the gender laws (conservative or liberal), we will see that gender is not the issue, but instead, it is something far more fundamental to the sin nature. And only then can we also move towards God’s remedy – and build on his solid foundation.

If we don't have that foundation in our day, what we are doing with this issue is no different than playing Tiddly Winks.

That’s like trying to build a doctrine on sandy soil.

One more point:
Why is it that historically, where there has been a move of God among his people, there has also been a rise in females preaching and leading. You see in China too. I would agree with Miccah in that you’d think it should be the opposite. Yet for some reason God seems to empower women during awakenings, but when the church gets ecclesiastically rigid, the shift returns to the men. (And even today where women are now ordained, there is still tightly controlled professionalism – and the clergy are an elite class holding the power.)
Again – it is symptomatic of a deeper sin issue –not just the desire for power, but also the propensity of the "laity" to trust in the ecclesial authorities to do the spiritual work for them.

I want to thank you posters for your words of encouragement. I see men here who are truly a balm of hope. May God use you to bring reconciliation between genders.

Diane

Yes, men who truly submit the Lord will also become more submissive in their relationships

No. Men are to love and honor their wives, wives are to submit to their husbands. Please do not mismatch the two.

This is where the problem lies. It is when a wife believes that a man needs to submit to her, that problems arise, not the other way around. Are there boneheaded husbands? Yes. And they are out of order. But this topic is about our better half :-)

When a marriage is in Godly order, the man will love his and honor his wife, even over his own life, and a wife will submit to the leadership of her husband. When this happens, an awesome thing happens... Both husband and wife are in a complete giving place, where each places the other before themselves. When this is out of order is when you start to see problems in the marriage. It pretty much boils down to a pride issue.

Today's church cares so much about equality and political correctness. Well let me tell you, the Lord is not interested in 20th-21st century liberalism. He is concerned about His rule and how we obey His leadership. This includes the order of the household.

Men... Stand up and become the men and the leaders that the Lord has made you to be.

*edit* A Godly ordered home is honoring to the Lord and brings the home into full submission to the Lord's will. Blessings!

4 x "No" in answer to your questions. However it is generally assumed we all walk in and by the same spirit.

This would be correct, at least in theory, if we would accept the authority of The Spirit, and therefore also scriptures over our own opinions. What is not the case as it appears, some value their opinions at least as high, if not higher.

What then makes obedience to God look like "legalism" to them, and nobody will convince them otherwise. This could several reasons, yesterday I read a book by Watchman Nee, titled Spiritual Authority, getting to the bottom of it:

"A man who is rebellious in heart will soon utter rebellious words, for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. To know authority, one must first meet authority; otherwise he will never obey. The mere hearing of the message of obedience is totally ineffective. He must have an encounter with God; then the foundation of God’s authority will be laid in his life. Afterwards, whenever he says a rebellious word—nay, even before he utters it—he will become conscious of his trespass and thus be inwardly restrained. If one can freely speak rebellious words without any inward sense of restraint, he certainly has never met authority. It is much easier to utter rebellious words than to perform rebellious acts."

That seems to be the dividing factor here " To know authority, one must first meet authority; otherwise he will never obey."

Annie,

I agree....

Lord have mercy!

Sandra aka ginnyrose

Hi

I highly recommend anyone who wrestles with this issue to listen to Derek Prince's teaching on this.

What I realy appreciate about him is his gentle dealing/tone on this sensitive issue -(due to the abbuse women had to endure under illegitimate authority)

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=10717

Blessings

Joch

You said -

Women represent The Church and men represent Christ - The Husband of The Bride - and that's how true "submission" is taught in The Word.

That is incorrect. it should be..

Wives represent The Church and husbands represent Christ - The Husband of The Bride - and that's how true "submission" in the context of marriage is taught in The Word.

Joch

I've only taken out a small section, Diane, of much that you've written on this topic that I do not agree with, according to His Word.

No. Men are to love and honor their wives, wives are to submit to their husbands. Please do not mismatch the two.

Interestingly, the command is not gender specific: “Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ” Eph.5:21 Please hear me out! In the subsequent verse the word “submit” is not present in the Greek, but is implied by context, rightfully so. Paul is going on to explain how submission works in various household relationships. Really this is just another way of explaining the great commandment - practiced WITHIN the social order: We must keep in mind that in each scenario, there is a significant power differential, and Paul does not change that! Yet only the person who is born from above (the Spirit) can submit in Christian love within the contexts of their social order (REGARDLESS of their status). The slave can love his master; the master can love his slave in Christian submission. This is not a rejection of social order!!!! Jesus used the example of footwashing. This never made Jesus less than God! Likewise in Christian submission we stoop down as far as we can go – and serve another as a slave. We can do so because we know we are heirs of the King of kings! Even death won’t change who we are in Christ! Social status or advantage need no longer determine the fulfillment of God's calling on us.

Surely we would agree that in our human relationships both passivity and domineering weaken the Body of Christ and our effectiveness in the world. It is the devil's scheme. (Eph. 6:10)

Since Paul does not advocate a change of status or power in relationships, we shouldn't build a strawman from this scripture by implanting our modern understanding of political correctness or equality of status or gender. That may indeed be society’s attempt to achieve more tolerance and mutual respect; but it is unsuccessful because it lacks the power of the Spirit – and thus the ability to submit in Christian love. And so it becomes intensely legalistic: the letter rules over the spirit of those “rules”.

The challenge then for you and me is: How can I express Christian submission within the social order where I am placed in 2012 AD?

PS It is my conviction that where people are more concerned about power differentials than seeing Christ’s redemptive love outworked in relationship – they will tend to miss the forest for the trees (the spirit for the letters).

Oh… I just realized - we are crossing over to the thread on legalism. Oops! How is it that this happens so naturally when we talk about women’s roles?

Diane

Jesus-is-God says

Does The Word of GOD [made flesh] change The Word of GOD [written] and change His Own doctrines by doing so?

Is that something that seems to some to be what GOD would do?

Is that "being led by The Spirit of Truth", as He's called?

That question has been heavy on me and I ask for reasons of the heart. Would He tell us to not go beyond what is written and then tell us by His Spirit to ignore His original Words?

Where does that phrase come from, "going beyond what is written"?

The reason I ask is because it has become a mantra like "separation of church and state".

If you hold tightly to "beyond what is written" then you will have to admit that Jesus went beyond what is written. What do you do with that?

I hope you are understanding that this whole discussion on the letter and the Spirit touches on your questions.

When you obey the spirit of the letter in many cases you are "going beyond what is written" in black ink on white paper. (according to the strict, legalistic literalists)

The Pharisees demonstrated this tightly held and legalistically observed notion, also.

It's not that He is telling us to "ignore His original words", but that He is breathing life and spiritual meaning into those words so that we understand by the Spirit (not our reason and logic) what He is saying to us.

This is so critical to understand. It is the spirit of grace that breathes His life into the words on paper.

The Pharisees were 100% literalists.

There are many examples of Jesus and the disciples "going beyond" and raising the ire of the Literalists. But, they obeyed the Spirit of the Word. If you don't come to Jesus the Living Word like the Pharisees then you won't have the Spirit to give life to the written word.

The devil can quote Scripture with a literalistic interpretation, as he so often does within religion. The literalist in religion wants to put everyone else into their own spiritual bondage. They want some company.

Some examples:

Jesus explained that He could attest to His authority to thus refine and purify. "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up," He said. The Jewish religionists, in their literalistic obtuseness and always concerned with physicality rather than spiritual things, could not figure out how their magnificent Herodian temple, which required forty-six years to construct, could be raised up from destruction in just three days.

Jesus tells Nicodemus that the spiritual kingdom requires a spiritual birth in order to enter into the participation thereof. Nicodemus naturally reverts to physical thinking of human obstetrics and returning into his mother's womb. Like a typical religionist, he thinks in literalistic concepts, failing to understand spiritual metaphors of illustrative language. Jesus contrasts physical birth and spiritual birth, being born of the flesh and being born of the Spirit. Religious interpretations which take the reference to being "born of water" as a reference to the rite of water baptism are employing the same type of physical and material understanding evidenced in Nicodemus, and usually view such a baptismal rite as initiation into their "kingdom" of ecclesiastical institution and organization.

"One of the dangers from which the Church should pray to be delivered is idolatry of the letter of Scripture. The letter exists for the spirit, not the spirit for the letter. Literalism is the grave in which spiritual religion is buried. The New Testament is a book which is to be spiritually interpreted. It has no greater enemy than the thorough-going literalist who would fetter its free thought by confining it within obsolete forms. It has no greater friend than the teacher who can give to its time-worn metaphors freshness and power by translating them into the language of the present." (James M. Campbell - The Heart of the Gospel: A Popular Exposition of the Doctrine of the Atonement. Fleming H. Revell Co. 1907. pg. 19)

Pilgrim

Surely we would agree that in our human relationships both passivity and domineering weaken the Body of Christ and our effectiveness in the world. It is the devil's scheme. (Eph. 6:10)

Hey Roadsign,

If I am reading this correctly, you are stating that what begins to happen in a "ordered" home via scripture creates either a passivity or domineering relationship between the man or women.

Is this the issue? Is it because some feel that if one is placed in a different role, headship vs. non-headship, that it becomes an issue of the headship being domineering over the other?

Would we not say that if a husband is domineering over the wife, that he would be out of a Godly order? I would say that he would be.

This is why I referenced that when a husband and wife embrace their godly role inside the family, they both will put the other first, with the husband honoring and loving his wife, and the wife submitting to the leadership of the husband.

There is nothing legalistic about submitting to the Lord's order. Nothing at all.

Jesus-is-God wrote:
The question I have is, how can 'The Spirit lead' anyone to believe something that The Word of GOD hasn't said or that contradicts what it says, regarding doctrine, if The Word of GOD is the One we know as 'Jesus'?

Onto another question: You’ve not answered this question yet since I’ve posted it twice... How did God lead His people in the 1400 to 1600 years before the printing press without everyone having The Word of God in their possession to compare it to?

God bless you,
Lisa

When God calls men and they don't answer, what's a girl to do, when He calls them?

Jackie Pullinger and many other women will tell you they just answered His call.

"Here I am Lord, send me".

What is not of faith, is sin. Romans 14:23

Good one Old_Joe.

Pilgrim

If I am reading this correctly, you are stating that what begins to happen in a "ordered" home via scripture creates either a passivity or domineering relationship between the man or women.

No one needs equality of status to fulfill God’s calling (I hope I conveyed that!). What I hear Paul saying is that the person with the power must not quench it in the other, and the person with less power must not surrender it (ie, their calling in Christ). The “weaker” one is equally responsible in Christ as the one with more power. Status does not absolve anyone from submitting to the other in love – as Christ submitted to humanity through the sacrifice of his life. (That did not make Christ less than God, did it?)

Does that make any sense?

A note on the insidiousness of carnality and legalism:
I know women, raised under conservative teachings, who are using fleshly measures to achieve godly “order” in their household. By the letter of the law it sounds like a godly desire, but in reality, it’s idolatrous. Really these wives want their husbands to be the knight in shining armor, that heroic lord and protector, spiritual head. This idolatrous reliance on their husbands surfaces in frustration, anger, and complaints – along with manipulation and power struggles. Meanwhile neither partner is submitting to the other in Christ-like love – with the desire to see the partner become strong and complete in Jesus Christ. Sometimes exasperated women approach me about their "incompetent" husbands. My aim is that the wives see their own responsibility to build into the lives of their husbands - not merely want it the other way around.

There’s the flip side: men who find their value through power over others. In a legalistic environment, this may look like adherence to the law of God. It’s adherence to the LETTER, but really it is a flesh-driven craving masked under religious righteousness.

Am I muddying the water – or clearing it up?
Actually, I think it’s legalism that does all the muddying for us! May God empower us to see the spirit of the law more clearly!!

Diane

Emotion is not to be a driver for preaching,

“Jesus wept.”

May God send us more preachers who have the capacity to weep for their people, to cry out before God on their behalf, to weep the tears the people cannot weep because their hearts have become so hardened, so calloused over.

May God turn our dry eyes into weeping eyes! These will be the REAL preachers of our future.

PS This is about the capacity to enter into the world of another. That's not self-oriented subjectivism!!! (something not noble in either gender)

Diane

Yes, Jesus did weep, but He did not base His preaching on emotion. Emotion is not a bad thing, but I would have to admit that people, as in us fallen humans, act so much more differently when we act emotionally. I know that I do.

Crying and crying out for the saved and unsaved is a great thing. But to base preaching on emotion is an issue. We see this in the BH circles, the TB circles, the "prophetic" circles... What we usually see is that once the emotion wears off, so does the "annointing".

Blessings.

A women who is "in Christ" is capable of having her emotions shored up and strengthened by the Holy Spirit as much as a man. The Fruit of the Spirit, self-control is for women as much as men just as the Spirit of God is as much for women as He is for men.

We are talking about being "in Christ" here, not in the flesh.

If Jesus is the one that gives strength to the mind, will and emotions, it cannot just be for men.

In so many cases today, women are running households where men have become passive and dropped out of their responsibilities. They have no time for emotions when their flock needs them.

Please, let's not turn this into gender competition. Jesus is the one that makes the difference in men or women. We risk legalism and falling into the flesh once again. Let's keep this on a spiritual plane.

Old_Joe,

I did like your comment:

ETA The reality is, if you truly believe women are biblically disqualified from teaching men, in an effort to be biblical would that not disqualify you from posting in an effort to teach men?.....just saying. When you stare that one down for a minute, it kind of hits right at the heart of the issue of preach what you believe, and believe what you preach.

And agree with you on what you say. That if as a woman I firmly believe I have nothing to offer in the way of teaching then I should not post. Because on SI, usually the very nature of much of the posts are about "teaching". You stated the obvious that many of us have picked up from those who say "women can't teach" but then they proceed to teach. That is strange behaviour, I agree.

But I also affirm that God is capable of teaching a man or a women and in turn a man or a women is capable of sharing what they have learned from the Great Teacher.

In Christ,
Sarah

But to base preaching on emotion is an issue.

But yes - there is a need for informative, thought-producing biblical teaching in the church so people are less gullible to emotional exploitation.

Interestingly, in scripture the heart and mind are the same thing - not two distinct entities - as it is now. Unfortunately the "heart" has become equated with emotion - perhaps as a reaction against objectivism in the past (ie, objective knowledge is the only truth)

And so now - what you FEEL is often seen as more authentic than what you THINK.

Is that not a propensity in modern evangelicalism?

Diane

I have to admit that roadsign is correct. More men are exploiting emotion than women, it seems.

Being "in Christ" truly does change everything as Sarah indicated.

Pilgrim

Those are nice OT examples, but I think Sarah's point was that "Christ makes all the difference."

Were people in the OT filled with the Holy Spirit? Had they experienced Calvary and Pentecost? Was Christ in them, the hope of glory?

You should probably start a new thread, as I dont want this one to go off on a "rabbit trail"

I would definitely participate.

Hebrews 11:39
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

Pilgrim

Surely it can be proven that this devious exploitation of emotion is not gender specific!!!

Agree fully. That is why I pointed out BH and TB. :-)

I am going to move the subject a little bit, but I have a question. Is it ok for a Homosexual or a Lesbian to teach? Why or why not?

I can say that I have heard some preach/teach with what sounds like a great authority on the scriptures. Why is this?

by Miccah on 2012/1/11 13:54:30

I am going to move the subject a little bit, but I have a question. Is it ok for a Homosexual or a Lesbian to teach? Why or why not?

I can say that I have heard some preach/teach with what sounds like a great authority on the scriptures. Why is this?

God bless you,
Lisa

I think you also should start another thread with this topic!!

I don't think so sister. It runs along the lines of ability vs. order. Something that I have been speaking of throughout the conversation I believe.

But this does bring us to a question that you spoke about. How do you define "living in ongoing sin"?

Blessings Lisa, I do enjoy the conversation regardless if we agree or not. :-)

Hey there Miccah,

Quick question: In your opinion, should sisters be teaching on SI?

Thanks,
Pilgrim

It occurs to me that when the war broke out in America – suddenly the women were “allowed” to work out of the homes. They served in the war effort. Then women’s status got connected with career. Yet, the difference between career "opportunity” and exploitation can be marginal. That can be true in the religious institution also. Women (and men) who find their sense of worth in status are prone to being used by those religious institutions. But the solution is not in endless preoccupation with prohibitions.

Look! Our homes/families/children have fallen into havoc – and we are in a crisis no less than the crisis of world war. Look at these bombs dropping all around us:

- One of every four adolescents in the U.S. is currently at serious risk of not achieving productive adulthood.
- 21 percent of U.S. children ages nine to 17 have a diagnosable mental or addictive disorder associated with at least minimum impairment.
- 20 percent of students report having seriously considered suicide in the past year.

…. and much more…

We are in a devastating war folks. There is blood everywhere! Does anybody care??? We need all God’s people on board! Should we not focus on empowerment (what God empowers his people to do in society), rather than on prohibitions (what they cannot do in church)? Here is where the church can shine!

Mary humbly sat at the feet of Jesus to LEARN. Learning is NOT gender-specific (like in Jesus’ day). If God’s people aren’t eager to LEARN, they are not going to be equipped to stand against the assaults. And they certainly won’t be effective teachers – no! Not in any capacity.

Why dispute over who’s in the pulpit – when there’s a big war going on – and when we are ill-prepared to serve where we could be most useful - in the hearts of our young folk who are broken and suffering from a profound sense of emptiness and meaninglessness.

Let’s get beyond our obsessive need to observe the LETTER at the expense of our true calling. Let us seek God to help us live by the spirit of the law.

The LETTER of the law focuses on PROHIBITIONS
The SPIRIT of the law focuses on EMPOWERMENT

And, God knows: Today we need empowered soldiers of the cross!

Diane

Women Served in the New Testament Church as Deaconesses.
Women prophesied in the church assembly, and therefore probably also taught there.

Paul made extensive use of the service of women, probably including a spoken ministry.

Women can cast our demons.
Women can learn from Jesus directly.
Women don't need a mediator between them and Jesus.
Women can move God in prayer.
Women can pray for the sick.
Women can witness, preach the Gospel and lead people to Christ.

Women can share what the Lord has taught them.
Women can disciple others.

Why? How is this possible?

For the same reasons that man can do all these things...

Jesus Christ!

Finally, as we have seen in the case of Deborah, God can and will go to female leadership even at the highest level, especially if the men are unwilling or unable to get the job done.
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Women have to wear head coverings.
Women cannot speak in some churches.
Women cannot teach in some churches.
Women cannot be deaconesses in some churches.
Women cannot preach in some churches.
Women cannot pray for the sick in some churches.
Women cannot cast out demons in some churches.

Why?

Religion

Sinners are treated better than some Holy Ghost filled, obedient women of God, bearing much fruit.

Great article to read that covers the following verses used to keep women of God "in their place".

•I Cor. 14:34,35 Let the women keep silent in the church for they are not permitted to speak...in church.

•I Tim. 2:12 I do not allow a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression. But women shall be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self restraint.

•Tit. 2:3ff Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips, nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sensible...

http://www.xenos.org/essays/against-traditional-fundamentalist-view-role-women-church

Right now I am intensely burdened! I’ve been with SI for 7 years, and I wonder: Why do we keep going in circles on the same subjects? Why do we get so stuck in matters of law- legalities? Will we ever move forward?

Frankly, I hate being labeled antinomian or umbilical just because I suggest the spirit of the law.
Let me tell you: I live by law! Thousands upon thousands of them! I believe in laws. Why today I taught my piano student laws. She has to go home and practice following these laws until they become so natural that she can play freely and expressively without even thinking about the laws. Only then is she free to think about the spirit of the music. She can appreciate the composer’s vision for the music. She can play music in harmony and balance with other musicians. She'll know when to be silent, and when to play. And she can even improvise (which to a legalist is tantamount to law-breaking!)

I'm not talking about the absence of laws, that is: Just listen to "the spirit". (that's merely a copout!)

So: If we are still obsessing over laws, we are just beginners - stunted. We are like little children who are too immature to see the spirit behind the rules. May God help us grow up! Then we can make fine-sounding “music” together – in perfect harmony, in perfect flow with the Director’s vision for us.

Yes, then we might even have revival - right here on SI.

Diane

Right now I am intensely burdened! I’ve been with SI for 7 years, and I wonder: Why do we keep going in circles on the same subjects? Why do we get so stuck in matters of law- legalities? Will we ever move forward?
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So: If we are still obsessing over laws, we are just beginners - stunted. We are like little children who are too immature to see the spirit behind the rules.

Hi Roadsign,

You answered your own question. The answer is that you move forward and pray for those that don't. In addition. pray that God brings you to those who are teachable and will move forward with you.

I recently found another forum where people ARE moving forward. www.shovelshack.org.

I have not registered, but peruse it once in awhile and am always blessed at the spirit of unity and joy centered around Jesus Christ.

Main site: http://theshovel.net/

Every once in while you need to go to an Oasis for refreshing. :-)

Here is their signature.

Are you trapped by religion? Motivated by guilt? Immobilized by fear? Do you think this is God's plan for your life? No way! Join the Shovel and break free from the prison that enslaves you. Dig with me and uncover the joy of life and freedom that's been buried under piles of religious dirt. Discover the true grace of God that most preachers fear and have probably already warned you against. Check out the real Jesus Christ, not the religious icon ... and you just might discover the real you.

Be encouraged, the Kingdom of God is bigger (in their hearts) than you think.
Pilgrim

Be encouraged, the Kingdom of God is bigger (in their hearts) than you think.

I admit, I do believe God has called me to return here after a hiatus - for a very specific purpose: that I may attain a deeper liberation. Legalism has been like a smothering blanket over me for most of my life. That’s why I am hyper-sensitive to its presence. God, it seems, is teaching and empowering me to rise above the devilish pull of legalism – not merely from others, but especially from within myself. He is freeing my conscience so I can serve him more effectively – without so easily getting derailed by needless guilt and condemnation (carryovers from my past).

I praise God for the opportunity to wrestle through this part of my spiritual journey here with my SI friends. They are cherished as dear brothers and sisters in the path. We’re in this together, aren’t we?

Diane

We certaily are in it together. I spend most of my time on a non-christian forum standing for the truth and wanted to come back here for some, er, refreshment. Did not know I would be wrestlin'. Tough crowd here but they're my brothas and sistas and it is always sweet to find those that know Him. A lot of people have had patience with me in life and I really am thankful to them.

:-)

Pilgrim

Tough crowd here

Amen! We would not know grace if there was no law/legalism.

...and I will give you rest for your souls.

Diane and Pilgrim (and anyone else I might have forgot), God bless you both for your willingness to hang in there!! I've enjoyed both your posts and learned much from them.

I am going to do what the Lord has called me to do and not let the naysayers drag me down. Yes, I minister and know I'm not sinning ongoingly doing it; I wondering if half of those who disagree actually leave their computer room or church to work with the lost to actually apply what they believe first hand.

God bless you guys,
Lisa

We would not know grace if there was no law/legalism.

Yes legalism by nature produces death (the letter kills). Yet good can come from that: For what dies is raised in the newness of the Spirit. And we discover grace!

“He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant —not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.” 2 Corinthians 3:6

Old Joe: Good post! It’s seasoned with grace!

Lisa: God bless you in your ministry! May God make you competent as a minister (servant) of the new covenant.

Diane

Hey there Lisa,

Definitely do what the Lord has called you to do. A Sister reminded me today of the following;

"If they (men) would go to mission stations across the world, hopefully they would be appalled at the dearth of men in leading roles - because the men are still at home!"

I know Sisters that go to men's prisons to preach the Gospel.

You are an inspiration, Lisa. You're not just behind a computer but are following His leading. Follow Him and don't be dissuaded.

Pilgrim

Kudos to them, but having done the same I found the gospel to be relatively welcome in prison. If you want a dangerous place to preach the gospel to the vilest of the vile where it ISN'T welcome, try it in a church!

You got a point there! Or in an online forum.

If you want a dangerous place to preach the gospel to the vilest of the vile where it ISN'T welcome, try it in a church!

Bless you, Old_Joe. With these words, you’ve earned forgiveness for your jarring words earlier about women being too emotional to preach. Your scale is balanced again in my “lawcourt!”.

Ooops…. … you know I’m pulling legalist card on you – don’t you? Do not be flattered!!

Actually I preach in prisons, only we all call it church. These people are imprisoned in bondages inherited through generations of legalism. What began (the Reformation) as a means to liberate people from the smothering laws of the Catholic church, over time became smothering in itself. What began as grace became law. Yet breaking free from law through liberalism has not brought true liberty.

This is why I aim to lavish my message with expressions of the liberating power of God’s delightful grace – whether I do that formally or informally, or simply by treating the people with grace.

I found the gospel to be relatively welcome in prison.

Speaking about emotional women, Old_Joe, I have discovered that my use of music can be effective in loosening the prison door that keeps the emotions shut down and locked away. I’m not talking about false, worked up emotions, but about true, tender emotions deep within – grief, pain, joy, tears, comfort. Praise and worship songs, performed expressively have a place in a setting that is more familiar with the old-staunch style hymns and organ.

... and Brother Joe ... If you can accept my strategies as valid, I’ll give you a few more points in my books. Ha! Just kidding!

Diane

by Jesus-is-GOD
Sorry Lisa, I didn't realize that I hadn't answered this. I hitch-hike on some unsecured wireless connection, as I've said, and it fades in and out - so GOD only knows what I've missed.

Anyhow - John 16:13,14 applies to that situation as well.

John 16.13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Thank you for hitting the nail on the head, sister. Do we honestly think that when the printing press arrived that suddenly the Spirit of truth stops talking to us, guiding us and leading us into all truth? I think not.

God bless you sister,
Lisa

I love how those of us who follow the Bible are called "legalist", "immature in the faith", "hindering revival", "not knowing grace"...

What a bunch of baloney. Do you all even know what your saying? Your saying that the Lord's Word is void. Your saying the Lord is a liar in His word. Your saying that you know better then the Lord...

I too fasted from these forums for some time. But I do not threaten to leave if I do not get my way.

And I think that train of thought, either I get my way or I will leave, permeates throughout the 20th-21st century "church". People don't like what they hear, regardless if it is scriptual, so they move over to something that will "tickle their ears". They surround themselves with people who agree with them and think like them, so they can feel that they are self rightous in their moving and belief. Straight pride.

If following the Word offends you, great. Conviction is a powerful tool that the Lord uses.

If you wish to turn your back on the Word, then it is better that you not be offended by it.

Be blessed.

Miccah,

Who are you speaking to? Me?

God bless,
Lisa

No one to my knowledge has accused people of being legalistic if they "followed the Bible".

What does "follow the Bible" mean to you?

The Bible says, we follow Christ. Jesus said, "follow Me".

He brings life to His Word by following Him.

Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Pilgrim

I wondering if half of those who disagree actually leave their computer room or church to work with the lost to actually apply what they believe first hand.

Another comment sister that is out of line. Since some of us disagree about women teaching, we must be "computer folks" who never get in the real world and preach.

What I do not do, is boast. You will not see me on SI speaking about what I do or have done in order to build status. But since it is called on the floor, here is a quick list of what the Lord has done through His ministry in my life.

*Missionary to 3rd world contries.
*Missionary to the lost in America.
*Church planter
*House church leader
*Jail ministry
*Street preacher
*Full time missionary to Africa in Uganda (pending at this time due to family circumstances listed below).
Husband and father to 4 girls and 2 boys. (My wife just had identical twin girls on Monday this week btw) :-)
*Support ministries throught the world financially.

The list can go on, but should it need to? No.

Please. Stop the attacks that have no bearing on the conversation.

Who are you speaking to? Me?

Just a general observation of the postings on this thread. :-)

No one to my knowledge has accused people of being legalistic if they "followed the Bible".

What does "follow the Bible" mean to you?

The Bible says, we follow Christ. Jesus said, "follow Me".

He brings life to His Word by following Him.

Joh 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

How do you know you follow Jesus? If it is not through His oral or His written Word? What do you use to know that you are following Him?

You quote SCRIPTURE as a reason as why not to have to listen to scripture. Ironic don't you think? Let me ask, how would you know to obey John 8:12, unless it was written for you?

Yeah, but you gotta go easy on Lisa because she is trying to make a point about legalists putting burdens on others but they won't lift a finger to carry any "loads".

We don't always say things the right way, do we? And we don't always understand things the way they were intended, either.

We all know that living for the Lord is not about what we do, but rather knowing Him personally and being obedient to His Spirit leading us personally.

Pilgrim

How do you know you follow Jesus? If it is not through His oral or His written Word? What do you use to know that you are following Him?

The Bible says that the "Spirit of God will lead us into all truth".

I knew about the truth of John 8:12 as a new Christian even before I ever read it. How did I know that truth? Through the Spirit of Truth. We don't have to read it first to know it. When I did eventually read it, the Scripture confirmed the truth that the Holy Spirit already had spoken to me.

Let me ask you a question, too. Why were the Pharisees so sure that they were of God and following God? What did they use to know that and be so sure about it?

Kindly,
Pilgrim

pilgrim777.

So anything that you believe that the Lord has shown you is ok and from Jesus?

Please, enough with the Pharasee comparisons, unless you want to start hearing the "heretic" comparisons. :-)

So anything that you believe that the Lord has shown you is ok and from Jesus?

I did not say that. And I don't believe that. True, the Spirit of God is authoritative, but I don't always hear correctly. When we hide the word of God in our heart, God will give it life by His Spirit. God by His Spirit (which is the 3rd person of the Trinity) will give the letters I have hid in my heart, life (understanding, meaning).

The Living Word gives the Letter, life.

Without the Spirit of God, I am just abusing people with the Bible the same way that the _____________ did.

:-)

Pilgrim

Without the Spirit of God, I am just abusing people with the Bible the same way that the _____________ did.

lol. Made me smile. :-)

by Miccah:
Please. Stop the attacks that have no bearing on the conversation.

I thought this was a thread about to go or not to go to a church where women are teaching Sunday school but has since become a debate about women not being allowed to preach. And I admit that I did say, “Yes, I minister,’ you caught me!! (just joking) But within the context of the thread and in the firestorm of opposition, I did not believe that admitting three little words, “Yes, I minister,” would be considered “boasting” by you (or anyone). I apologize for boasting, that was not my intention at all.

And when I said, “I wonder if half of those who disagree actually leave their computer room or church to work with the lost to actually apply what they believe first hand...” After reading your list of accomplishments, obviously that statement was not meant for you, I don’t even know why you even bothered answering! You’ve way out done anything I have done for the Lord. That statement was not meant for you.

God bless you and God bless your expanding family brother!!
Lisa

Glad you smiled. That was the intended and hoped for reaction. :-)

I know we all love God and love each other and keeping a good-heartedness towards each other is so important in maintaining healthy conversations. If I stumble, please let me know, it is not my intention.

The whole Bible to me is JESUS versus RELIGION or the TREE OF LIFE versus THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL. God's ways versus Man's ways.

In the end, JESUS TRIUMPHS over everything.

Great talking with you,
Pilgrim

Lysa. Believe it or not, I am enjoying the conversation here on this topic with you and the others. It may not seem that way at time. It is also hard to convey "feeling" on a keyboard. :-)

I do not hold punches. So if I come off as brash, I appologize. The Lord is still working in me, teaching me His ways.

It is when those of us (yes, I include myself in this category) that believe that the Bible is clear on a subject, are placed in the boxes of legalists, immature in the faith, etc... tends to get me worked up.

I see so much of the Word being thrown away these days. So when I see Christians (you and others) who I believe are throwing out the Word, it bothers me to the point of rebuke.

Please forgive me for being harsh. Even if I believe that I support the correct side, I do need to learn mercy and grace better and better.

Blessings sister.

What is your question OJ? I am not understanding what you are asking. Never once have I claimed to be good.

What am I railing against? If it is non-Biblical teachings you are talking about, then yes. I do rail against those, since they are unscriptual.

In what? In life? In these conversations?

No.

I am being obediant to the Lord's calling. Call it what you will, but it is not a "good or bad" answer that can be given.

OJ. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and repost what I wrote to Lysa.

Please forgive me for being harsh. Even if I believe that I support the correct side, I do need to learn mercy and grace better and better.

OJ, I too am still being molded into His image. I fail every day, including this conversation. I am not above correction or teaching.

And, I am not above God's Word. The whole point of this conversation.

Blessings

Thanks for stooping down to offer me the pat on the head, but it is unbecoming for a wretch to pat another wretch on the head. Why join Job and I with "behold, I am vile", not WAS but AM.

OJ. You lost me. If I have offended you, I am sorry.

Be Blessed.

Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, If ye do whatsoever I command you.

Great scriptures from Jesus-is-God.

What should a born-again person having God's Spirit living in them, think about when they read the word "commandment" in the Bible?

What do you think Jesus thought about?

Blessings,
Pilgrim

What do you think Jesus thought about?

Why don't you tell us pilgrim777, you apparently know it better then He who wrote it.

Well, someone once asked me the same question. I thought it was a fair question and wanted to learn. His question to me was: "What do I think about when you read the word "commandments" in the Bible. I said, "the written commandments of the Bible" (of course)! This is the same mistake the Hebrew Roots Movement makes and why people can be so easily beguiled by them if the written word is more authoritative to them than Jesus Christ.

He continued, "what do you think about when you come across words in the Bible like "precepts, statutes, word" etc? I thought, well, the Bible of course!

Maybe these verses by Jesus can shed some light on what I am getting at.

Jesus said this:

John 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

He did not say, "for what scriptures that I am not keeping, do you stone me." He healed the sick, raised the dead, spoke words of life to people, explained parables, spoke prophetically, etc, etc.

From John 10:32 we can assume that His Father was speaking to Him apart from the letter for there is no place in the letter that told Jesus to put mud on someone's eyes. He got that directly from His Father.

These good works came from His Father as Jesus indicated.

Notice, that Jesus is not pointing to the Bible, here.

John 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

"That the Father is in me, and I in Him".

John 16:3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor ME.

He did not say the "because they have not known the Bible" here. He said, "they will do these things unto you because they have not known the Father nor me".

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

As Jesus hears His Father, He acts.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Blessings to you,
Pilgrim

"The Bible is not an end in itself, but a means to bring men to an intimate and satisfying knowledge of God, that they may enter into Him, that they may delight in His Presence, may taste and know the inner sweetness of the very God Himself in the core and center of their hearts." (A. W. Tozer, The Pursuit of God. Christian Publications. 1948. pg. 10).

Jesus IS the Word. Why is it so hard to understand this?

Miccah,

Probably time to let this rest.

I agree, Jesus is the Word of God.

Take care,
Pilgrim

As you wish.

Be blessed.

Thank you, brother.

I would like to let others weigh in on this subject.

I am sure there are many that can explain what I am talking about much better than I and I need to let them share their perspective.

Like you I am always learning and may have to adjust my views. I have had to adjust my views many times in my walk with the Lord and know I will have to many more times.

Much love to you in Christ,
Pilgrim

Always appreciate your point of view Old_Joe.

And that is a great quote:
"Faith allows you to do things that law doesn't."

Such as having mercy and compassion.

Here is what Law allows. The death penalty for an assortment of crimes.

Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:11,13-14)
Contacting spirits (Leviticus 20:26-27)
Working on the Sabbath (Numbers 20:26-27)
Worshipping false gods (Deuteronomy 17:2-5)
False prophets who deceive the people to reject God (Deuteronomy 13:1-5)
Influencing others to worship false gods (Deuteronomy 13:6-10)
Disobedience of a child including gluttony and drunkeness (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)
A new bride not being a virgin (Deuteronomy 22:13-14,21)
Adultery (Deuteronomy 22:22)
Rape and fornication of an engaged (married) woman (Deuteronomy 22:23-24)

Old_Joe,

We could also turn it around and say that LAW allows things that Faith will try to stop.

There was nothing in the commandments of God that allowed Jesus to heal on the Sabbath. Law did not allow that or going through the corn fields to eat. He also interfered when an adulterer was being stoned (Deut 22:22).

"Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God..." Heb 11:6

Take care bro,
Pilgrim

Just backing up a page. I was intrigued by Pilgrim’s question:

"What do I think about when you read the word "commandments" in the Bible.

As in here:

I said, "the written commandments of the Bible" (of course)! This is the same mistake the Hebrew Roots Movement makes and why people can be so easily beguiled by them if the written word is more authoritative to them than Jesus Christ.

Diane

The true "Spirit" or man of GOD will reverence and lift up The Word and jealously guard it ... not replace it with their own words.
That's been a true safeguard against being deceived by men or the enemy. A protection against deception and deceivers.

I’m sure you have noticed this – even today:

There are those who are so sure they are right, that in their view, all who think differently are surely wrong - and even enemies of the Bible itself; they are surely using scripture for their own ends.......

And the mental thoughts may go like this: It can never be me who is wrong because I defend truth. What I feel is right.

Sis, I really admire your love for God’s truth. I intensely love the truth too. I know you would love this book: "How to Read the Bible for all its Worth” by Gordon Fee. This book is effective in guarding against subjectivity. I admit, it does me good to review it periodically.

No, I surely haven't forgotten anything that we've discussed.

I must say, my memory is not near as reliable! Oh… Might it be possible that your brother is concerned about something that you are not seeing – in spite of your strong feelings otherwise?

Diane