The law - The Gospel

I am excited that God in Christ has already accomplished everything that I have listed that the law could not do.

That is the key. What the law cannot do, Jesus can and does do.

The Person of Jesus Christ is the only ANSWER and hope for man.

Amen, Amen, TUC.

Will someone who is saved at one point, become lost and go to hell if they do not keep the law?

James 2: 12-13
Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

What is the "law that brings freedom"?

Diane

James 2: 12-13
Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

What is the "law that brings freedom"?

Diane: I think it is important to look at this one in context, both of what James is saying here and what the remainder of the New Testament says about this topic. Here is they way I see it.

Jas 2:8-14
(8) If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
(9) But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
(10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
(11) For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
(12) So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
(13) For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
(14) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Notice the contrast that James makes here. First that we do well to fulfill the royal (noble) law that we should love our neighbor as ourselves. Recall that Paul said that all the law is fulfilled in this. Then James makes a statement that is made over and over again in the New Testament. If we offend in one part of the law we are guilty of it all. The law, Paul said, brings bondage. So instead of living according to the old covenant law we should live and walk as those who are judged by that law that set us free, the law of liberty, that is as those who will be judged by what we have done with what Jesus did for us. Notice just before this statement James says that if you think you are keeping the law but offend in one small point you are condemned.

Question: What is the "law that brings freedom"?

Answer: Rom. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? No; but by the law of faith.

Gal. 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live by them.

Php. 3:9 And be found in him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:

Hear me, you who that know Righteousness, the people in whose heart is my Law...

For the Law of the Spirit of Life in Yeshua HaMashiach has made me Free! from the law of sin and death.

That the Righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit!

Isaiah 51:7a
Romans 8:2,4

"One of the greatest miracles of God; is to take an unholy man out of an unholy world, make him holy, then put him BACK IN AN UNHOLY WORLD, AND KEEP HIM HOLY!" L. Ravenhill

Yes, but you always have to maintain a balance between objectivity and subjectivity neither of which contradict each other in Christ. Some parts of Christendom have moved all the way to one side of objectivity (Letter) while the other part is complete subjectivity (Spirit). Neither of which is liberty.

Remembering that the "letter of the law" kills, we know that true liberty is in the life (hearing His voice both by the letter and in our spirit) of Jesus Christ.

- II Cor. 3:17 - "where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty"

Where the Spirit of the Lord is not, there is no liberty.

The law that James is talking about is the "law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus"

This is not the the Law he is talking about.

- Rom. 6:14,15 - "you are not under the law, but under grace"
- Rom. 7:2,6 - "we have been released from the Law"
- Gal. 5:18 - "you are not under the law"

We have been made to die to that law (law of sin and death).
- Rom. 7:3,4 - "you were made to die to the Law"
- Gal. 2:19 - "I died to the Law"

In these verses Jesus Christ is our Pre-eminent RESOURCE, the One that is helping His children by HIS SPIRIT.

Pre-eminent Resource
- Rom. 8:31 - "If God is for us, who is against us?"
- I Cor. 10:13 - "God will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able"
- II Thess. 3:3 - "He will strengthen and protect you from the evil one"
- Heb. 2:18 - "He comes to the aid of those who are tempted"
- I Peter 1:5 - "protected by the power of God"
- II Peter 2:9 - "Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation"
- I John 4:4 - "greater is He who is in you, than he who is in the world"
- I John 5:18 - "Jesus keeps him and the evil one does not touch him"

Preserving Power
- Rom. 14:4 - "Lord is able to make stand"
- I Cor. 1:8 - "Jesus shall confirm you to the end"
- Phil. 1:6 - "He who began a good work in you will perfect it"
- I Thess. 5:24 - "He will bring it to pass"
- II Tim. 1:12 - "He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him"
- Heb. 12:2 - "Jesus, the author and perfector of faith"
- Jude 24 - "Him who is able to keep you from stumbling"

Christianity is Christ! Christ is the Gospel!!

Pilgrim

Many excellent posts in this thread.

hi, the law is the leaven that leavens the whole lump and makes grace of no strength.

What is the spirit of the Psalmist in Psalm 119?

The longest psalm, and it is the love song of a man who lived long before "the Gospel." It is not the wailing of a man trapped in the confines of the law, but one whose heart is in great liberty as he appreciates the eternal value of the law, he has learned to live the law of God from his inmost being- but more than that he is able to see the law for what it really is, the transcript of the character of God.

That's a glimpse of the reason Jesus said He came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. Psalm 119 is His love song, because having the character of God was His highest pursuit.

Actually, the gospel can't function without the law. Without the law, the gospel becomes emotional chaos- no standards for righteousness, no walls, no way to aspire to holiness, no sense to the death and resurrection of the Savior.

Yes to the salient points in Galatians, no man is justified by pursuing perfection in the law, good works cannot supplant Christ's atonement. But God expects, and reasonably so, that His children be obedient to all the standards in the ten commandments. In Deuteronomy 30:11 and again in Romans 10, the law is not too hard for you.

It comes back to the character quality of a repentant heart. When you transgress, He demands you repent, turn away from your sin, and do the righteousness that demonstrates here and in heaven that you are being transformed into the image of Christ.

Just do it, as Nike would say.

Think about the words of Jesus to the woman taken in adultery: "Go and sin no more."

Was this just a platitude, or did the the King of Glory have a reasonable expectation that she would stop sinning?

The law of God is so holy, He Himself has no authority to violate it. Be clear when you teach others that they are no longer under the law that if they violate the law- they are back under it and the guilt they have is God calling them to fresh repentance.

He is looking for holy people with His law written on their hearts.

dear sidewalk, do a bible study in galations...it will bless you

James 2: 12-13
Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

What is the "law that brings freedom"?

Matthew 11-28:-
“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Law of Liberty is exactly discribed by Jesus in Matthew 11-28. As Christians we need to walk like how Jesus walked and to obey his commands. But this commands does not become a yoke upon us like how the laws of Moses became to Jews. It will be easy and light like how Jesus Promises us.
So if a person is a true born again believer then he will find the commands and teachings of Jesus as easy and light and pleasure to keep. We do not keep the exact law but the requirements (spirit) of the law by the power of Holy Spirit living inside us. If anyone believes he cannot keep it and it will be a burden then he lacks faith and is not saved.

Look at Pauls faith:- Philippians 4-13
I can do all things [i]through Him who strengthens me.

So even keeping the spirit of the Law should be possible by faith in Jesus, if anyone feels he cannot then he is lacking faith.

For all those who support the Original poster of this thread, ask him whether a believer has to keep the commands of Jesus, he will say no as he believes that the teaching of Jesus are OT.

Sree wrote: "For all those who support the Original poster of this thread, ask him whether a believer has to keep the commands of Jesus, he will say no as he believes that the teaching of Jesus are OT."

And he happens to be correct.

Jesus was born a Jew, and all Jews were under the Mosaic Covenant with 613 Laws, and all laws have judgement and penalties to suffer for each Law that one failed to keep.

Thus Jesus lived His entire life under the Mosaic Law. If Jesus failed on even one point of the Law, Jesus would no longer be the Lamb Of God whose shed blood on the cross takes away all our sins.

During Jesus entire life from birth to His death on the cross, Jesus was a Jew and therefore obligated to keep the entire Mosaic law. And Jesus did keep the entire Mosaic Law. Do you agree with this Sree?

I'll assume you said 'Yes'.

So what is the New Covenant of Jesus Christ?

And when does the New Covenant come into existence?

Do you believe Christians are under both Covenants?

If not, When was the Mosaic Covenant annihlated?

Keep in mind that the word Covenant in Hebrew has the same meaning as our English word 'Contract'.

Thank you jimP.

There is no book in the Bible, no passage that is not full of more revelation than what I have. Believe me, this book has not escaped my study. Do you have something in mind that God has shown you in Galatians that might be that blessing for me?

(It's the Sunday school teacher in me- I want to know what you are seeing!)

Post deleted due to "fleshly" harshness detected afterward. My sincere apologies to any who may have been offended by it.

Sidewalk wrote: Quote: """But God expects, and reasonably so, that His children be obedient to all the standards in the ten commandments. In Deuteronomy 30:11 and again in Romans 10, the law is not too hard for you."""\\

God also knew that no man could keep the Law perfect, except Jesus Christ the Son of God. Thus the death of the Law. That is why even before the foundation of the World the Lamb was slain. God in His love and mercy by His Grace sent His only begotton Son into the world not to condemn it but to save it. That is why we are free from the Law of the old testament, I am sure Galations will uphold this truth in Christ Jesus who has been born again in all those that believe, that He is the Son of God.

This is that fulfillment of the Word of God; Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

His working in us, not the Law killing us by the letter, which Jesus kept perfectly. How can we now depend on our own flesh to keep and defend the Law. We cannot.

We were in Him when He was crucified and all our sin put Him on that Cross, now He is the only One that can give us life and "this life is in the Son" 1 John 5:11-12

My death on the Cross in Him has set me free from the condemnation of all the Law and Now I can only hope to keep any simulance of righteousness by He that is in me.

1 Cor 1:30 He is my righteousness.

Galatians 2:19-21 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

He is the only life I now have. Praise God for His own suffering and putting His Son through all humility just to get me as a son of God. How can we do anything under the Law to give thanks for what He has done.

I can now love the Father by the Love of His Son that is in me, can I never give enough thanks for what he has done?

Not by me, but by the Son that is in me, through His thanks and glory by faith, I can thank God in Him only and also know this by His Faith that in me by which I now live in this flesh.

In Christ: Phillip

Eph 1-3 is the epitomy of all Pauls epistles in which Paul preaches nothing but Christ and Him crucified, that we might be saved by the Grace that is in Him from the Father, who stood by and even being pleased that Jesus was marred more that any man and Crucified even to the Crufixion of the Cross. Know that then and then only could God our Father look upon his elect sons and daughters in pure Grace that was attoned completely by the Blood of Jesus Christ, the price paid to get you and me, what a price. Think about how the Father felt, when He saw His sinless only begotten Son bloodied, beaton, His flesh torn from His body, spat upon, made fun of and ultimatly killed by one of the most terrible most painful deaths contrived by man. Now we think that the Law will pureify us. Think about how the Father feels now when we don't completely depend on Jesus Christ and His Holiness to save us and keep us saved. In Christ, with Christ in you. This is our perfection, never the Law.

In Christ: Perfect before the Father by the work of the Cross accomplished only in the Son of God Jesus Christ, my life: Phillip

J-I-G, that is the key, the whole counsel of God. When we alienate certain parts or truths and overlook or dismiss others we will always get in deep trouble. God's Word is crystal clear we cannot be saved from God's wrath by keeping the Law, only by God's free grace through the atonement of Christ. But it is also clear that once we are saved we are to delight in God's Law and Word and follow it as our moral compass, by the power of God's Spirit at work in us. Psalm 119 is indeed a good example of how we are to esteem and view God's Word and Law as blood-bought children of God.

The begining of the OP seems to be implying that, for the Christian, there is nothing good to be found in God's Law or the preaching of it. But notice what the New Testament writers say to Christians about it:

"9For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,”“You shall not covet,”and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.(Rom.13:9-11)

"9Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."(1Cor.6:9-11)

"25Therefore, putting away lying, “ Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,”for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil. 28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. 29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you."(Eph.4:25-32)

"3But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience."(Eph.5:3-6)

"8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,”also said, “Do not murder.”Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty."(James 2:8-12)

Those are just some examples. The NT is filled with such exhortations to turn from all wickedness and put on the Lord Jesus Christ making no provision for the flesh.

The devil on the other hand will tell you, "Hey what's the big deal, you don't have to worry about obeying God's Law or commandments. All that was taken care of on the cross. All you have to do now is believe in Jesus atonement for your sins and it does not matter how you live."

Don't let the devil fool you. He is a liar and the father of all lies. Stick to God's Word and you will not go wrong. He will guide your steps through His Word by His Spirit.

theEphah wrote "Trying to make a point is one thing, blasphemy is another. It's not too late to repent. You won't have forever though"

Amen. I saw the same kind of thing in the thread about God's Word. Disheartening.

The law has no good news for mankind. (False)

Why is there a tendency to pit divine Law against divine Spirit as if the two are mutually incompatible? God’s Spirit presumably replaces our need for law (among any number of other faculties and disciplines). Is it that humans have a tendency to see only in black and white, either/or; if one way is right, the other must necessarily be wrong. Don’t you and I see that habit of thinking a lot, – even in our discussions here? (Well… let’s admit, it does keep discussion going.)

Gal. 3:10 says: “All who RELY on observing the law are under a curse.” This is truth, not because the law is bad or redundant, but because every person relying on it is hell-bound - condemned for legal violation!

In the parable of the Good Samaritan account, Jesus does not tell the legal expert to banish the law, but to live it. In this account we see that observance of law is synonymous with receiving eternal life. The priest and Levite failed to observe the Great Commandment because for them the letter of the law took precedence over the spirit of the law: The two travelers were incapable of fulfilling the law because they were incapable of living by the spirit of the law. They were restricting OT purity laws to religious ritual (don't get defiled by touching dead bodies), and failed to understand the spirit of those very laws: purity of heart enacted though perfect love. “Be Perfect therefore as your heavenly Father is perfect” Matt. 5:47 Therefore, they passed by the wounded man - in case he was dead!

A thought: Trying to extract law is like trying to extract the backbone: Living effectively becomes impossible. (And you just end up making substitute laws.)

Another thought: The person who sees only the letter of the law also holds to a definition of the word “law” which restricts this word from crossing over into the fuller essence of “law”. There is then a problem in the very definition of the word “law”: It’s too narrow! And based on THAT narrow definition - yes - law itself is problematic.

Does that make any sense?

Diane

Amen Diane I understand what you are saying. Great post.
Another thought came to mind. God's moral Law reveals the very character of God. He is holy, and He commands us to be holy as He is. But through the fall man is depraved and does not really delight in holiness and righteousness, but rather in sin.

Therefore it is natural for man to dumb down and despise the holy character of God and to try to picture Him as someone like himself, having a low standard of righteousness. We despise the idea of God requiring us to live holy lives. And we try to do away with His commands and say He is not interested in us keeping them. So we end up creating an idol in our minds, a false god that we are more comfortable with.

Every Christian will admit that the great sin of the world is that they have exchanged the true God for an idol that they are comfortable with in their sins. But could it be that that type of idolatry has also affected many in the Church? To to point that, even though we may have way more truth than the world, much of their philosophy regarding God has stuck with us?

Why is there a tendency to pit divine Law against divine Spirit as if the two are mutually incompatible? God’s Spirit presumably replaces our need for law (among any number of other faculties and disciplines). Is it that humans have a tendency to see only in black and white, either/or; if one way is right, the other must necessarily be wrong. Don’t you and I see that habit of thinking a lot, – even in our discussions here? (Well… let’s admit, it does keep discussion going.)

Gal. 3:10 says: “All who RELY on observing the law are under a curse.” This is truth, not because the law is bad or redundant, but because every person relying on it is hell-bound - condemned for legal violation!

In the parable of the Good Samaritan account, Jesus does not tell the legal expert to banish the law, but to live it. In this account we see that observance of law is synonymous with receiving eternal life. The priest and Levite failed to observe the Great Commandment because for them the letter of the law took precedence over the spirit of the law: The two travelers were incapable of fulfilling the law because they were incapable of living by the spirit of the law. They were restricting OT purity laws to religious ritual (don't get defiled by touching dead bodies), and failed to understand the spirit of those very laws: purity of heart enacted though perfect love. “Be Perfect therefore as your heavenly Father is perfect” Matt. 5:47 Therefore, they passed by the wounded man - in case he was dead!

A thought: Trying to extract law is like trying to extract the backbone: Living effectively becomes impossible. (And you just end up making substitute laws.)

Another thought: The person who sees only the letter of the law also holds to a definition of the word “law” which restricts this word from crossing over into the fuller essence of “law”. There is then a problem in the very definition of the word “law”: It’s too narrow! And based on THAT narrow definition - yes - law itself is problematic.

Does that make any sense?

That is the problem in a nutshell, Diane.

People are pitting the law against the Spirit and the Spirit against the law showing that they understand neither one and the role that they play.

Jesus said it much more simpler. "The letter kills but the Spirit gives life".

Pilgrim

what is the law that brings freedom?

Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: THEREFORE LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW. ~ Romans 13:10

For ALL THE LAW IS FULFILLED IN ONE WORD, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. ~ Galatians 5:14

If ye FULFIL THE ROYAL LAW ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURE, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: ~ James 2:8

God bless,
Lisa

Jesus was born a Jew, and all Jews were under the Mosaic Covenant with 613 Laws, and all laws have judgement and penalties to suffer for each Law that one failed to keep.

I never said Jesus did not live under law. Please read my post clearly before posting. I said what Jesus preached is not Old Covenant. He preached the spirit of law not the exact law. He did not sin by not preaching the law, as he defends himself by saying on sermon on the mount that what he preaches will strengthen the law and not weaken it. If you have ever understood any of his teachings, you will clearly see it is all the spirit behind the word, Jesus wants us to keep the spirit. The Pharasees missed the spirit and kept only the external word and that is why Jesus said their internal cup is unclean.

It is true that we are no longer under the Mosaic law and we are under grace. But that does not mean we can live as lawless creations. One should not go to the extreme and reject law totally. If we become lawless creation then call that living by Faith then how can we be Holy like our Father in Heaven?
Even in Romans Paul says, Romans 2-14:-
For when Gentiles who do not have [m]the Law do [n]
instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

This is the law of New Covenant, Law of Spirit where we keep the requirements of Law. The SPirit will guide us to maintain the requirements of Law. Do you have a clear conscience before God all the time? If not then you will be Judged according to the true Gospel, irrespective of what Jesus has accomplished. But there is Hope Repent. Where then is your so called SAVED theology? Salvation is a daily process, every day we need fellowship with God and have a clear conscience with him.

You who say the teachings of Jesus is Law and we do not need to follow it, in Matthew 11:26 which I have quoted before, Jesus talks about putting a different burden from what Moses put on them, what is this?

In John 6-35:- Jesus says that I am the bread that came from heaven and if you do not partake in me you will not have eternal life How is this a OC? Jesus said unless you are born again you cannot enter the Kingdom of God and how is this OC (John 3-3) ? If it was a law that Jesus was telling to Nicodemus then he would have understood it clearly, better than any of the scholars of this day.

I can post 1000 questions that you cannot answer, so please stop streading such false teachings.

I have to quote this before you wake up and erase it.

It is a scriptural truth that if one is truly keeping the spirit of the law, then one will not break the letter of the law. It is the law itself that breathes the spirit in us. You can't claim to be led by the spirit while disreguarding what brings forth the spirit to begin with.

This is the most blatant judaizing agenda post I have seen from you and thank you for posting it. You have just deified the law and given attributes of God to the letter.

"The law breathes the spirit in us."

What?!?!

You have rendered yourself incapable of logical spiritual dialog.

Now I know why Paul used the word "beguiled" in Galatians.

beguiled - past participle, past tense of be·guile (Verb)
1.Charm or enchant (someone), sometimes in a deceptive way:

If the law breathes the Spirit of God which is grace then it would have done that in the OT, right? Why didn't the law bring grace in the OT if "the law breathes the Spirit", which is the "spirit of grace? (Heb 10:29)"

Why would God deliver us from something that "breathes the Spirit?" and then say the "letter is oldness" and the spirit is "newness"?
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

You say the "law breathes the spirit", then why can't we receive the spirit from the law?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

If the Spirit works miracles (which we all know He does), then the law which breathes the Spirit should work miracles.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

If we are led by the Spirit we should be led by the law, too. According to your logic! For the "law breathes the spirit" so being led by the spirit should be asking to being led by the law.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Do you see how you have just deified the letter? Do you see how you have given attributes of God to the letter? According to you the letter saves, guides, gives grace, provides freedom, works miracles, etc, etc. Because after all, "the law breathes the spirit".

I have never heard a more ridiculous statement.

Pilgrim

I hope this doesn't turn into a sinless perfection debate. I am completely against that extreme heresy. As Christians we will still sin and need to repent of sin. We are not sinless but sin less and less as we grow into His image.

We do not lose our salvation everytime we sin. Otherwise we would need to be born again, and again, and again, you get the drift, everyday.

theEphah,

You are quite mixed up.

The law does not identify sins of the inward heart of man. The law cannot circumcise the heart. That is an operation of the Spirit of God. The law was given to identify sin (outward sin) but it does more than that. It also condemns sin because no man can keep the law. The law was also added as a Schoolmaster to guard the Jews until Christ came. The law was a necessity until the time of Christ but to go and live back under the law would be to go back to the time before Christ.

Again, another erroneous statement.

The Law includes both letter and spirit

Paul (by the Holy Spirit) says the Law is the letter alone without the spirit.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Yet another erroneous statement:
quote]We are not being judged by how perfect we become, rather by how much genuine effort we put into overcoming.

We are not being judged by either perfection or our genuine effort.

For Paul, something has drastically changed since his experience on the road to Damascus. The risen Christ has replaced the Torah as the central theme of his life, and as the primary identity marker of all Christians. After laying out the nature of the dispute in chapter 2, "who is a sinner?" Paul begins to argue his case in Galatians 3.

Paul pursues two different courses as he makes his case here. First, he denies the charge that he is a sinner for proclaiming this freedom in Christ. He does this by turning the charge on its head and asserting that going back to law observance was itself sinful. Secondly, after thoroughly assailing the law, Paul then must find a place of value for it. He introduces this discussion in Galatians 3 by asking, "what then is the purpose of the law?" (19)

Paul's Proposition

Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
Gal 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The Role of the LAW.
So the law was added to label, identify, and condemn sin as something contrary to God.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

It is now possible fully to grasp the intent of Paul as he considers the law in this passage. Since Paul has diminished the importance of the law, he needs to find a positive role for it, and needs to answer why turning back to the law would make the Gentile believers in Galatia flirt again with sin.

First, Paul answers that the law was added to identify sin as transgression against God. In doing so, the law did more than just identify sin, it condemned those who did these acts. And while the world was under the power of sin, the Jews were imprisoned and guarded by the law (3:22). The law was meant to guard Israel until the arrival of Christ.

Second, Paul is desperately trying to sway the minds of the Gentiles in the Galatian church. When the law was in effect, not only were the Jews guarded, but the Gentiles were excluded from the promises of God. The Jews had so hoarded the promise of God by living it in a legalistic manner, that Gentiles were looked at with contempt and considered slaves like Ishmael. To return to the law willingly would place the Gentiles in the position that the Jews were once in, to be condemned by the law, and to find themselves excluded by the very nature of the law. Being in Christ means freedom from the condemnation the law naturally brings. Paul yearned for the Galatians to remain in the freedom of Christ and removed from the restraint of the law that had formerly enslaved them as Gentiles.

According to Paul then, the law was neither positive nor negative; it was merely a necessity. More importantly it was a necessity for only a limited time, a time that had come and gone. Since that time had been superceded with the arrival of Christ, to continue to live under the law would go back to the time before Christ. No longer would the Gentiles be free, but the law that had condemned the Jews for centuries would now condemn the Gentiles.
Selections taken from: http://www.crivoice.org/gal3law.html

Pilgrim

by theEphah on 2012/1/17 13:41:37

Oracio--

We are not sinless but sin less and less as we grow into His image.

I agree, it's a daily affair. We can overcome sin if we know exactly what it is. Not what we feel sin is or what the church tells us it is, sin is what the Creator of Heaven and Earth say it is.

1 John 3:4 sin is the transgression of the law.

Heaven and earth can pass away and this statement will never change.

We are not being judged by how perfect we become, rather by how much genuine effort we put into overcoming.

So Ephah, you are reducing Jesus, The Only Begotten Son of God, to a mere Cheerleader. I guess you are saying:

"Jesus is an example to us, if HE can keep the Mosaic Laws in their entirety throughout His entire life, so we should follow His example and keep the entire Mosaic Law too, just as Jesus did. We just need to follow His example. All Jesus asks is that we keep the Mosaic Law, and we will have eternal life."

Are there any parts of the Mosaic Law that was cancelled by God when Jesus died on the cross?

And please explain this Prophecy in Zecariah 1: 7-14 mean to you?

Zec 11:7-14

7 So I pastured the flock doomed to slaughter, hence the afflicted of the flock. And I took for myself two staffs: the one I called Favor and the other I called Union; so I pastured the flock. 8 Then I annihilated the three shepherds in one month, for my soul was impatient with them, and their soul also was weary of me. 9 Then I said, "I will not pasture you. What is to die, let it die, and what is to be annihilated, let it be annihilated; and let those who are left eat one another's flesh." 10 I took my staff Favor and cut it in pieces, to break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples. 11 So it was broken on that day, and thus the afflicted of the flock who were watching me realized that it was the word of the LORD. 12 I said to them, "If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but if not, never mind!" So they weighed out thirty shekels of silver as my wages. 13 Then the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them." So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD. 14 Then I cut in pieces my second staff Union, to break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
NASU

I pointed this scripture out many times, and not one person who believes Jesus days we must keep the Mosaic Law to be saved (enter Heaven and receive many great blessings. So tell us Ephah, what bilateral contract God made with the peoples is God annihilating, for the price of Thirty Shekels of Silver.

Feel free to anybody else who agrees with Ephaha.

As for me, my salvation is not based upon making myself sinless by keeping the whole Mosaic Law.

My salvation is the same salvation given to the Jews, redeemed from their sins by an annual sacrifice of an unblemished with one exception. My salvation comes from the Blood sacrifice of the Lamb of God, His only begotten Son, who kept the entire Mosaic Law from birth to death, but as Paul wrote, there is no further need for any additional annual sacrifice:

Heb 10:1-18

For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,

"SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED,
BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME;
6 IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE.
7 "THEN I SAID, 'BEHOLD, I HAVE COME
(IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME)
TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.'"

8 After saying above, "SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, NOR HAVE YOU TAKEN PLEASURE in them" (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL." He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time,SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, 13 waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. 15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,

Heb 10:16-18

16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART,
AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,"

He then says,

17 "AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS
I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."

18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.
NASU

Jesus was sent to the Jews to save them under the Mosaic Law, and not to the gentiles. Jesus was under the Mosaic Laws until His death. Jesus did not ever preach the gospel to anyone, nor did Jesus attempt to preach to gentiles prior His death on the cross. Upon His death, God annihilated the Mosaic Covenant with its 613 Laws.

God annhilated the Mosaic Covenant with the New Covenant of Jesus, salvation by accepting the atoning blood of Jesus, by this faith we are saved, that we believed God by accepting Jesus as our Lord and savior, whose blood has washed away all our sins for all time.

Read 1 John 1-10 before you reply.

theEphah-"We are not being judged by how perfect we become, rather by how much genuine effort we put into overcoming."

Good point. There will be a Judgment Day for the saved where rewards will be distributed accordingly. God does not force His children to desire and strive for the best rewards, though that is His desire for us. He leaves it up to each one whether they want to build with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw(1Cor.3:12). When He sees that we sincerely desire and strive to please Him in all things He provides the power of His Spirit to enable us.

"For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building."(1Cor.3:9)

So there is a "co-laboring" or "cooperating" together with Christ. We are not passive robots who have no choice in the kind of Christian life we live, whether victorious or defeated. Some will bearly escape the fires of hell(1Cor.3:15)

All that to say this. As believers, If we dumb down or despise God's moral Law in any way, instead of striving to honor and keep it by His Spirit, we may bearly be saved in the end. We need to say to the Lord, "Please give me the grace to honor You and Your Word in all areas of life and conduct." He promises to give us that grace, and He is not a man that He should lie.

To Pilgrim:

Very nice post. I'm glad you used Galatians which plainly states we are not saved by the Mosaic Law, but by faith.

And that "we are now dead to the Mosaic law, ... for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Romans and Philippians cover this also. When we become Christians, we receive the Holy Spirit. It is the indwelling Spirit by whom we are transformed, we do not transform ourselves. God instills a new Godly nature in us as we walk by faith with God daily.

pilgirm777-"The law does not identify sins of the inward heart of man."

Brother, as much as I respect and admire you, I have to point out your mistake there.

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet."(Romans 7:7)

Jesus came to reveal the true spirit of the Law because it had been distorted over the years. But that spirit of the Law was always there, and God's spirtitual people, the true seed of Abraham by faith, kept the spiritual nature of God's Law all along, though not as powerfully as we are now able to in the New Covenant era.

Rickyyearle, Thanks for posting this url, it is spot on about the true Gospel of Jesus Christ.

http://www.gotothebible.com/HTML/whatisgospel.html

Hey there Oracio,

Yeah, maybe that was a bad example.

There are many others inwards sins that are good and I think you know what I am talking about.

Lust, smugness, bias, pride, respecter of persons, any kind of lack of love towards our neighbor.

Not helping an injured person on the Sabbath because you can't work according to the letter.

I think you get the idea but thanks for the correction on covetousness, although many would say that "I did not VERBALLY covet anything (but in their heart they are doing it). Again the legality of the letter.

Pilgrim

Braking one little part of the Law, also breaks the big part, that being saying as Israel did, we will keep the whole Law, which they never did.

The law does not identify sins of the inward heart of man.

I have found this to be profoundly true for me! Here’s my own story:

I grew up in the Christian Reformed Church and was raised with an acute sense of Biblical law. In my formative years I carefully aimed to please my authority figures, because to me that was synonymous with pleasing God. It had benefits: It kept life in order and gave me a sense of belonging. Approvals were signals to me that I was keeping God’s laws. I carefully avoided anything that would cause me disapproval – from man and God – as I understood the law.

Then as a teen, at a youth retreat, I heard that I needed to “ask Jesus into my heart”. I had never heard about that, but now I was eager to do that. The preaching convinced me that this procedure would please God. I decided to comply. And not wanting to be the only one who did not have a salvation date, I prayed aloud in my cabin of girls, saying: “Jesus come into my heart and forgive me for my sins.” I meant it. Yet I distinctly remember thinking to myself, ‘But I can’t think of any sins”. As far as I knew I was obeying God’s laws. I had nothing to forgive.

God honored my fragile imperfect offering of myself. Over time he would awaken my conscience to countless violations of the law - through a process of spiritual awakening. I had to discover who I was underneath the layers and layers of facades. I came to see that on an unconscious level I violated the first commandment. I could not love God with all my heart, because much of my heart was locked away – even from my own awareness. There was much darkness yet to be brought into the light.

The most significant period of Holy Spirit conviction occurred in my mid 30’s. By that time, I had been a Baptist for many years, and I was well acquainted with Biblical law. I had been exemplary Christian …… until life crashed through a complicated intertwining of family illnesses, a personal debilitating illness, and other crisis - all at once. Then I discovered a level of sin that I could not see before. My greatest sin was self-reliance. I had been depending on my self to be a Christian. When everything about myself came crashing down – my strength - emotional, physical, religious, cognitive capacities, and so forth, I was left naked in God’s presence. I could merely cry for mercy. After that, for a long, long, long period of time, the Spirit would expose ever–deepening layers of sin. They were too many to write in a book. At times God seemed to abandon me. But always before I would sink into utter hopelessness over my sin, he would come along and breathe his grace into me. And then I would say, Oh God, thank you, it was all worth it!

Only God’s Spirit knows the deepest recesses of our hearts – our conscience, the values that drive us, our false trusts. The Bible is not a conclusive, comprehensive diagnostic manual for the heart. If it was, none of us would be able to carry it. Besides, we would not make the connection with our own heart anyway. (It’s always the other guy, right?) We still need the Spirit.

The Bible points to the one who exposes sin and cleanses us: God – Father, Son, and Spirit. It is the process of death in Christ’s baptism – and resurrection in his life.

Diane

Thank you very much for sharing a little of your story, Diane. It illustrates what the letter could never do and will never be able to do.

Blessings to you,
Pilgrim

Thank you Pilgrim. My own story reminds me of the need to exercise mercy towards others. God works in their lives in his timing - not ours.

We don't make very good surgeons when it comes to extracting other people's sins. On the other hand, we may praise what looks very righteous- yet may have sin at its root.

God can manage people's spiritual condition far better than we can. In the mean time, our calling is to exercise the law of love.

What is love?

Diane

Oracio. you took Romans 7:7 totally out of its' context. Allow me to return the context to that verse that the Apostle Paul intended in His long argument.

Ro 7:1-8:11

Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

14 The Conflict of Two Natures

For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8

8:1 Deliverance from Bondage

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
NASU

Paul says in Romans chapter 7

7:3 For what the Law could not do, WEAK AS IT WAS through the flesh, GOD DID: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

What the Mosaic Law could not do, GOD DID, by sending Jesus, His only begotten Son, The Lamb of God, as an offering of sin. HE didn't condemn the sinners, God condemned sin in the flesh.

7:4 Therefore, my brethren, YOU WERE ALSO WERE MADE TO DIE TO THE LAW THROUGH THE BODY OF CHRIST, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

"WERE MADE TO DIE TO THE LAW THROUGH THE BODY OF CHRIST"

Are you dead to the LAW, being part of the body of Christ, Oracio? Or are you still living by The LAW?

7:5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.

The LAW aroused our sinful passions, that is what the LAW actually did, by working in our flesh, thereby working in in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.

7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

We are now released from the LAW, having died to the Law to which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the [Holy] Spirit and not in oldness of the Letter [The Mosaic Law].

By quoting Romans 7:7 totally out of context to justify your claim that we are still under the Mosaic Laws, what you wrote is exactly the opposite to what Paul actually saying.

7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

Now let's add the context you left out: Romans 7:8, which is actually the 2nd part of the same sentence that begun in verse 7

8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.

Putting 7 and 8 together, Paul is saying that the Commandment "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." focuses the mind on coveting itself, but sin, taking opportunity through the Law, the very commandment that tells us "YOU SHALL NOT COVET.", thereby producing in us every kind of coveting. If there was no commandment, our minds are freed to think of non-sinful things, more positive things.

People tend to go where they are looking. Any bicycle or motorcycle rider knows that. Even people who drive cars have that experience, a police car pulls a car to the side of a highway, and drivers passing by focus on the police action and they suddenly finding themselves steering into the passenger car or the police car, cause they drove their vehicle into the direction he was looking.

And this is the real problem with the Mosaic Law. In attempting to keeping focus on the Law, we get enticed by what we shouldn't do, our mind is not on God and good things, but rather, those who keep their eyes on keeping LAW of Moses are constantly focused on sin, and they become enticed by the Law, causing sin to increase. God never wanted to give the peoples of the Exodus The LAW, but the people did not want to walk by faith, they wanted to walk by sight asking for a set of Laws which God wanted them to keep in return for great blessings from God. Moses read them THE LAW, and they shouted we will keep them as Moses certified their contract with God with the Sprinkling of blood upon them as they said 'I Do'.

The Laws of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ are not negative, they are positive Laws that focus us on doing what is good and kind.

The Royal Law of Love.

Mt 22:37-40
" 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' 40 " On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." NASU

The Law of Liberty. Mercy Triumphs over Judgment.

The Law of the Spirit of Life (Romans chapter 8)

God never wanted to give the peoples of the Exodus The LAW,

Diane

ArtB, the context of Rom.7 tells us that Paul, as a Pharisee, thought he was keeping the Law, because he only thought of it as an external Law. But once he considered the 10th Commandment he realized it was not just external but also internal and he was "slain" by that Commandment.

ArtB wrote: "The Laws of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ are not negative, they are positive Laws that focus us on doing what is good and kind."

Not so. The Law of Christ has both negative and positive aspects. Here are just a few examples of multitudes from the N.T.:

"Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. 13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts."(Rom.13:12-13)

"25 Therefore, putting away lying, “ Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,”for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil. 28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. 29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you."(Eph.4:25-32)

"22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth"(2Tim.2:22-25)

So there is both a putting off and a putting on. We see this throughout the N.T.

But even in the O.T. we see positive moral laws given to Israel, like laws having to do with looking after the widow and the orphan(Deut.10:18-19; Isa.58:6-8, etc).

God did not, does not, nor ever will allow His children to be a lawless people. He has set boundaries for us, just like any good father does.

If we want to be lawless He leaves it up to us, but there are serious consequences, both in this life and the next.

Ok it says we are dead to the Law, correct? The Law kills, correct? How then do we look to the law for eternal life and salvation?

If Christ is in me and He is the law keeper, how does He transfer this keeping of the Law to me. Is that Grace or what? No one in Christ can be lawless, for He fulfills the Law in us. How is this accomplished in the believer?

Do we live in fear of our lives, which is supposed to be in Christ but by the inability to keep the Law, which the scripture says no man has kept except Jesus Christ the incarnate Son of God, loosing our salvation because we cannot keep the Law?

I don't see any way out of this delima except trusting in Christ to keep me and fullfill the Law in me by Faith. I see in Col 1 where it says it is His work that works in me to keep me pleasing to God. That is all I want, to be pleasing to my God and Father.

If there is another way, I would like to know it. Please lay out the Plan of Salvation for me so I can keep the Law.
Which altar must I use to sacrifice the unblemished Lam, Ram, Pigeon and where must I put the blood. I really want to keep my salvation.
In Christ: Phillip

He fulfills the law in us by conforming us to His image to walk in love before man and God.

He fulfills the law in us by leading us to put to death the deeds of the flesh and walk after the Spirit.

He fulfills the law in us by leading us to be a pleaser of God rather than man.

He fulfills the law in us by leading us to walk in forgiveness.

He fulfills the law in us by leading us to show mercy and compassion and not be self-righteous (God be merciful to me a sinner).

And on and on it goes...

Just keep adding to it.

Pilgrim

As born again Christians, we all know and agree that we are not saved by keeping God's "moral" Law or any law. We are saved by grace through repentance and faith in Christ alone. And we do not keep our salvation by keeping any law/s. We maintain saved by the same grace that saved us in the first place.

That said, Christ's commandments are binding on us in the sense that we are to obey them. In the New Covenant we are under the Law of Christ(1Cor.9:21). Esentially it is the same "moral" Law or code as in the O.T. but expounded in much more clarification than in the Old. We see this throughout the N.T. epistles where we are commanded and exhorted to keep the same "moral" laws as in the O.T. In an earlier post I posted some N.T. passages as clear examples. So God's moral Law is still binding on Christians today.

And on and on it goes...

Just keep adding to it.

This can be very dangerous and misleading. A lot of people "add" to scripture all the time, and they are wrong.

I am not saying anything you posted is, but there is a limit to what can be added. If not, you end up with some wild beliefs, like the JW, LDS etc..

I don't mean add to scripture, Miccah.

If you will notice, I have basically paraphrased some scriptures regarding how the Spirit leads us.

Please don't take what I say out of context or twist it.

I'm sure you probably did not mean to.

Pilgrim

Sorry, Miccah,

I read your second sentence too fast.

Yes, you are right. Many new thoughts that don't agree with scripture are added by the Evil One all the time. He adds new contradictory thoughts and He perverts existing scripture.

Pilgrim.

Please don't take what I say out of context or twist it.

I'm sure you probably did not mean to.

Thank you for clarifying.

Christinyou, as far as I know, no one is saying we are to look to the Law for eternal life or salvation. We are saying we are to delight in keeping God's Law as re-born Christians. We cannot keep it in our own strength. It is Christ by His Spirit who strengthens us.

Christinyou wrote-"If there is another way, I would like to know it. Please lay out the Plan of Salvation for me so I can keep the Law."

The bottom line is we need to be doers of the Word and not hearers only deceiving ourselves(Matt.7:24-27;James 2:22-25). You won't go wrong then. For the Christian, it's not as mystical as some would have it to be. If the Word says, "Don't do that", just obey and don't it. If it says, "Do that", obey and do it. We have God's Spirit and He will lead us to obey His Word with simplicity, through child-like faith. Very simple. Resist the devil and he will flee from you, etc. God bless.
Oracio

Every one seems to be of one mind. Now, I know people and friends and myself who are into drugs and other sins of the flesh, they cry out to God with tears believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and in all the script that says what Christians are supposed to believe in. They don't have the will power to stop sinning. Are we all lost and headed to eternal damnation in Hell fire, to burn forever?

I take drugs for a heart problem and High blood presure, and terrible pain because of Diverticulitus, ruptured discs in my low back, titainium plate in my neck, stent in my heart etc, is this my lot in life or because of sin in my life. I am 72 years old, not many years left and I am completely waiting for death, to be absent from this body and present with the Lord. The only peace I have is when I am with Christ in oneness by the Spirit of God and the presents of My Father. Am I still saved? If God gives any an answer please share it with me.

In Christ: Phillip

---this post has been edited----(tuc, I apologize for my harshness toward you)

Christinyou, God will let you know by His Spirit. His Spirit will bear witness with yours that you are His child.

If there is any doubt about your salvation, go to God and His Word in prayer. Examine yourself in light of His Word like it admonishes us to do(2Cor.13:5).

True believers have new desires to forsake all know sin in their lives and to please the Lord. We do not have our own will power but God's Spirit enables us to overcome any sin in our lives as we forsake it. If there is any known sin in your life, repent, confess it to God and forsake it like His Word says to do.

I will share this quote from Spurgeon on repentance:
"There must be a true and actual abandonment of sin and a turning unto righteousness in real act and deed in every day life. Repentance, to be sure, must be entire. How many will say, Sir, I will renounce this sin and the other...but there are certain darling lusts which I must keep and hold? Oh, sirs, in God's name let me tell you, it is not the giving up of one sin, nor 50 sins which is true repentance. It is the solemn renunciation of every sin. If thou dost harbor one of those accursed vipers in thy heart and dost give up every other, that one lust like one leak in a ship will sink thy soul. Think it not sufficient to give up thy outward vices, fancy it not enough to cut off the more corrupt sins of thy life, it is all or none which God demands. Repent, says He, and when He bids you repent, He means repent of all thy sins otherwise He can never accept thy repentance as real and genuine. All sin must be given up or else you will never have Christ. All transgression must be renounced or else the gates of heaven must be barred against you. Let us remember then that for repentance to be sincere, it must be entire repentance. True repentance is a turning of the heart as well as of the life. It is the giving up of the whole soul to God to be His forever and ever. It is the renunciation of the sins of the heart as well as the crimes of the life."

Oh Philup,
Why ,..always did Paul and all the others say, "Grace and Peace to you" ..?(first,Grace,...then Peace,in that order,...God is truly a God of order.
The Spirit of God ministers Grace to us,..His Spirit drawing us to Him,..
His Will,..this Grace gives us the needed Power to turn to God / His Will.
We have a will,..we know it is so prevelant in us,..But we have a choice,..
We can,..with His Spirit,..( Grace ) keep His Will / Words,..or we can
throw His Words to the ground,..and keep our Will / word,..The Lord wants to Save Us from ourselve. 'His arm is not shortened,that He cannot save'
Without this Grace doing His work,..we cannot have true Peace.that is why we always heard them say,.'.Grace and peace to you.'
He does not want us to shun this most Precious gift.

Yes, Christ in us,the hope of Glory.(Him being Glorified)
As His Spirit / Word comes up in us,.. His leading /guiding,..like a fountain of Living Water,..He is offering us Life,...and that more abundantly.
And He is Glorified.
Philup,be blessed with Himself,..and His workings in you mightily,
Elizabeth

Dear brother theEphah,
Yes, the Commandments were once wrote-up,..and they were read ,..and the people were to obey. But that failed,..so God made us a WAY,...
through His Precious Son,..and to reject His Way is to reject God.
When Jesus died for us,..He sent back to us His Way ,..who is The Way,..
Through the Holy Spirit,He teaches us and commands us,through the
Spirit....Don't we remember,..in Jn.,..He said,..'the words I speak unto you,they are Spirit,and they are Life. (Everlasting / Eternal),...He said,..
' I come to give you Life and that more abundantly' ?
His Words,/ Commands come with the Holy Spirit.
He is Word / Spirit. ...?His Words are commands to us.And through the Power of the Holy Spirit,..He gives us the enabling ability to do His Will.
He offers us Life,..He gave us a will,...we can choose to obey/ keep His Word,....Life or to throw His Word to the ground,and use ours,..death.
He will never lead us in an unrighteousness way...never.

And so we reach ,and press on for the mark of the HIGH CALLING of God.

In His Love for Him and of Him,
Elizabeth

Philip,

A verse that God spoke to me during some especially difficult days and speaks to me personally whenever I hear a testimony of suffering like yours.

Jer 12:5 If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with horses? and if in the land of peace, wherein thou trustedst, they wearied thee, then how wilt thou do in the swelling of Jordan?

God was answering Jeremiah's complaint.

If thou art not able to encounter lesser dangers, how wilt thou be able to overcome greater?

I have greater dangers for thee to encounter than those at Anathoth; if you are so disturbed with them, how will you be able to grapple with those at Jerusalem .

Once again, God reminds me, through the testimony of an overcoming Saint (Philip), that our total and complete trust must be in Him in the land of peace and the swelling of the Jordan . I would say, doubly in the land of peace. Because it is in the land of peace that we are deceived in letting down our guard and taking it easy. And if we don't pass the test in the land of peace, we will surely fail in the "swelling of the Jordan".

Philip you are in the "swelling of the Jordan ", and clinging to the Lord with every fiber of your being. You are standing strong and proclaiming the faithfulness of God. According to this scripture in Jeremiah, you are evidently doing this because the footmen did not weary you when you ran with them in the "land of peace". Here you are in the swelling of the Jordan and you are proclaiming Christ.

I pray for you that God will continue to uphold, strengthen, comfort and see you through this with victory, Philip. And He will!! So that you may stand in the congregation of the righteous and testify of His faithfulness and love. There are many more battles and from faith to faith and glory to glory, the Lord will lead you.

The swelling of the Jordan will not last forever and those of us that are running with the footmen in the land of peace, need to be reminded what God is doing in the lives of His people that are enduring tribulation and that "greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world."

Bless you dear brother for fighting the good fight, and not giving into self but rather proclaiming the love and mercies of God.

Thank you for your example of faithfulness and love for our Lord in the face of adversity.

Those of us that are running with the footmen are inspired to to see and hear of the Reality of Christ in those that suffer.

God bless you, richly,

You are in my prayers.
Pilgrim

Rom 8:33-34 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

tuc, I edited my last post and apologized for my harshness.

maybe I need to take another vacation from this forum

[quote by Oracio on 2012/1/18 12:46:38]

ArtB, the context of Rom.7 tells us that Paul, as a Pharisee, thought he was keeping the Law, because he only thought of it as an external Law. But once he considered the 10th Commandment he realized it was not just external but also internal and he was "slain" by that Commandment.

ArtB wrote: "The Laws of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ are not negative, they are positive Laws that focus us on doing what is good and kind."

Not so. The Law of Christ has both negative and positive aspects. Here are just a few examples of multitudes from the N.T.:...

"Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. 13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts."(Rom.13:12-13) ...

Apparently, Oracio, you have a problem differentiating between exhortations by Paul, with Jesus Laws of the New Covenant and the Laws of Moses. Exhortations are not laws because there are no trials or judgements associated with them. Exhortations are encouragements to have the right mind set in establishing love bonds between people.

[quote by Oracio]"Romans 25 Therefore, putting away lying,..."

The LAWS of Moses does not forbid lying. It forbids false testimony in a Court of Law where penalties are an issue. The ancient Jewish Midrash contains Jewish teachings on the proper times and situations when it is proper and righteous to tell a lie, or lies, or mislead.

Paul is simply stating that Christians ought not lie to one another, because that would damage the love, the fellowship, that we have in God and with one another. Paul's Exhortations are encouragements, they are not Laws. Paul's exhortations are wise encouragements, but have no legal penalties or provisions for enforcement.

by theEphah on 2012/1/18 19:28:28

Our Savior said --IF YOU WANT TO RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS." Matthew 19:17

He said these very same words on the way to the cross "IF YOU LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS" (John 14:15)

You could ignore what I wrote in replies to these statements all you want, but it is you who are doing all the ignoring.

1. Jesus never preached to gentiles prior to His Crucifixion. Jesus said the gentiles were like dogs unworthy of the bread for His children Israel.

2. Jesus was under the Mosaic Law until His death on the cross. Had Jesus preached the New covenant prior to His death, He would have violated the Mosaic Covenant, making Him a sinner. The Jews accused Jesus of violating the Mosaic covenant, Jesus with strong words denied this.

3. In all His public speeches, Jesus addressed them only to Jews, and He taught them to keep the Mosaic Laws. That is why He said what is written in Matthew 19:17 and John 14:25.

4. In Romans Paul writes the the Mosaic Law causes sin to increase, tat he would never known about coveting apart from the Mosaic Law, but the Mosaic commandment 'Thou shall not Covet' worked in the flesh to cause coveting of all sorts.'

5. Read the book of Galatians, Paul tells them that if they put themselves back under the Mosaic Law, they are nullifying their being saved by God's Grace.

6. In Hebrews Paul tells us that the Mosaic Law was useless and worthless in that it could not save anyone.

7. In Hebrews Paul declared that Jesus is not a Priest according to Levi, which was a temporal priesthood. But that Jesus is a Priest of the far superior everlasting Priesthood of Melchizedek. And that where there is a change of Priesthood, there is also a Change of Law. The New Covenant is not an extension of the Old Testament Covenant of Moses, it is a completely different Covenant. Anyone who embraces the works of the Mosaic Laws, forfeits salvation by grace through the sacrifice of the unblemished Lamb of God and His shed blood that washes away our sins for all time. Read Hebrews, you can not miss this.

8. And then there is Zechariah who predicts that God will annihilate the Mosaic Covenant when the Messiah dies on the cross. The Mosaic Covenant is completely replaced by the New Covenant, which has its' own set of Laws.

Read Zechariah 11: 1-6 = The prophecy of the burning of Herod's Temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD. Many Jews agree this is the fulfilling of that prophecy.

Read Zechariah 11: 7-14 = The prophecy of God annihilating His bilateral Contract with His peoples, the Jews. The only Bilateral Contract God made with the peoples is the Mosaic Covenant. What do you think Zev 7:

Zechariah Chapters 12 and 13 are happening now, right before our eyes.

Jesus declares That first will be last and the last will be first. The Israelis were first, but they shall be last saved. And in Romans 11 Paul writes that all Israel shall be saved. God has not abandoned the offspring of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

ArtB wrote: Apparently, Oracio, you have a problem differentiating between exhortations by Paul, with Jesus Laws of the New Covenant and the Laws of Moses. Exhortations are not laws because there are no trials or judgements associated with them. Exhortations are encouragements to have the right mind set in establishing love bonds between people."

Again, not so. These are just a few of multitudes of N.T. scriptures where Paul gives "commandments", not just exhortations and encouragements, from the Lord:

"Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband."(1Cor.7:10)

"Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters."(1Cor.7:19)

"If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord."(1Cor.14:37)

“Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise"(Eph.6:2)

Notice that the last one from Ephesians is a direct quote of the 5th Commandment, and that Paul applies that commandment to Christians. And there are many other such examples which I have posted and which you seem to be ignoring or avoiding. Friend, don't tell believers they are not obligated to obey God's moral laws.

Again, we are not under any obligation to obey any ceremonial or civil laws of the Old Covenant. But we are clearly bound by the Lord as His servants to obey His moral laws.

And again, we are not saved nor do we keep our salvation by keeping God's moral laws, but only by God's grace(unmerited favor). That grace that saves us also changes us from the inside out, giving us new desires to obey God's moral commandments found in both the Old and New Testament.

ArtB wrote: "The LAWS of Moses does not forbid lying. It forbids false testimony in a Court of Law where penalties are an issue. The ancient Jewish Midrash contains Jewish teachings on the proper times and situations when it is proper and righteous to tell a lie, or lies, or mislead."

That's seeing only the letter of the 9th Commandment. It goes further than that. Here are just a few examples:

"You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man."(Ps.5:6)

"Lying lips are an abomination to the LORD, But those who deal truthfully are His delight."(Prov.12:22)

Again, our Lord came to point out and expound on the spirit of the moral Law, and it is still binding on Christians today.

Also, the teachings and commands of both Christ and Paul are applicable to Christians today. They do not contradict one another. We cannot pit one against the other, for that is serious error. And we cannot simply brush off and do away with all the moral commands from the O.T.. We must take and heed the whole counsel of God for what it is.

1. Jesus never preached to gentiles prior to His Crucifixion. Jesus said the gentiles were like dogs unworthy of the bread for His children Israel.

He did not preach to Gentiles because a Covenant was not made with Gentiles until the Death of Jesus and Not because his teachings are not applicable to Gentiles. But to Jews God already made a covenant, so Jesus preached to them the Good news of Kingdom of God.
Secondly if Jesus has seriously called the Gentile women Dog then he has sinned. He was testing her faith to see whether she had the faith needed to get the healing that she was seeking. This he did in all his miracles. He healed a centurion's slave without any rebuke or dog calling (as per your argument).
The Problem with you is, you take one scripture and try to make a theology out of it. Compare it with other scriptures, like how Jesus did when Satan quoted a scripture to tempt Jesus (Luke 4), he balanced the arguments by quoting another scripture. If he had your attitude then he would have fallen to the tricks of Satan.

2. Jesus was under the Mosaic Law until His death on the cross. Had Jesus preached the New covenant prior to His death, He would have violated the Mosaic Covenant, making Him a sinner.

One part of this is true, Jesus lived according to Mosaic law. But his teaching is not Old Covenant. He did not sin by teaching New Covenant. He told in Sermon on Mount that what he is teaching will not abolish the law but strengthen it. Which means what he is teaching is actually not law, but something else that strengthens the law. This is the spirit of Law.
Jesus told Nicodemus that unless you are born again you will not enter the kingdom of God (John 3). Is this Old Covenant? if it was then Nicodemus would have understood it immediately as he was a teacher of it.
I can show you all the teachings of Jesus and show you how it is different from OC.
Jesus was put to death for claiming that he was Son of God and not for teaching something wrong.

3. In all His public speeches, Jesus addressed them only to Jews, and He taught them to keep the Mosaic Laws. That is why He said what is written in Matthew 19:17 and John 14:25.

Since your point 2 is proved wrong, point 3 is also wrong. Also Matthew 19:17 is not Old Covenant and it is only your assumption. If it is OC then what is John 3:3? John 3:3 is obviously NC teaching. I call classify a part of Jesus teaching as OC and another part as NC is childish and it only shows lack of maturity.

I don't have time to discuss rest of your bullets, misunderstanding Paul is fine compared to misunderstanding the teachings of Jesus. First read the 4 Gospels seeking God to show you revelation.

Acts 28:28 Be it known that the salvation of God is sent to the Gentiles, They will hear it.

This was one of the last times Paul spoke to the Jews, speaking from the Old Testament and the Gospel of the New Testament concerning Jesus Christ. These Jews wanted to know what Paul had to say concerning, what they called a sect, which everywhere was spoken against.

Some believed and some did not. That is when Paul envoked the salvation of God be sent to the Gentiles.

To this day the nation of Israel does not believe in the salvation of God, the Gospel, which Paul declares, "My Gospel". This Gospel which changed the whole application to salvation. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". John 3:16 etc. Now that we gentiles hear the Gospel of Paul, which is the mystery revealed to the saints, which is the new birth, which is "Christ in you the hope of glory". Now Grace gives us all that is necessary for salvation and keeping it, which God in His perfect plan by the Lamb slain before the very foundation of the world, put His Own Son, the Spirit of Christ in the believer. "Born Again". Let us live in that life which we now have. Knowing that our heart is not waxed gross, but has been filled with the Life of Jesus Christ our only life, and our eyes open to see Him and our ears to Hear Him, that we are converted and understand with our hearts, that we are healed by His Stripes and given life by His Life that is now in us.

In Christ: Phillip

Oracio wrote:

Again, not so. These are just a few of multitudes of N.T. scriptures where Paul gives "commandments", not just exhortations and encouragements, from the Lord:

"Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband."(1Cor.7:10)[

Oracio, you are using the KJV.

In the NASU, here is how that verse is translated:

Even in the KJV, this alleged ‘commandment’ is not a commandment from the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law allowed a Husband to divorce his wife.

1 Co 7:10 (NASU)
10 But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband 11(but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.

The Greek word being translated into English is ‘parangello’. KJV translated ‘parangello’ to mean ‘commandment’. The NASU translates ‘parangello’ I Cor 7:1 as ‘gave instructions’. Which is correct. Here is what the greek word ‘paragello’ actually translates in English:

NT:3853 parangello (par-ang-gel'-lo) : NT:3853 – TO TRANSMIT A MESSAGE.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Parangello does not mean command nor does it mean commandment.

"Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters." (1Cor.7:19)

Circumcision is a Commandment of the Mosaic Law. Paul informs us that it is not a Law of the New Covenant of Jesus Christ. So Paul is clearly describing the Law of the New Covenant we have in Jesus Christ, and is not endorsing the Mosaic Law, which Paul stated that the Mosaic Law was useless and worthless in that it could never save anyone. That what the LAW could not do, Jesus did on our behalf. Through Jesus blood sacrifice we are saved for all time for we who accepted Jesus blood as washing away for all time. The Bible declares that No Human (except Jesus) is sinless, and there is no other merciful sacrifice for the removal of Sin other than Jesus blood shed on the cross.

Oracio wrote:

"If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord."(1Cor14:37)

“Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise"(Eph.6:2)

‘commandment’ is the Greek word ‘entole’: injunction, an authoritative injunction,. Therefore ‘commandment’ is a legitimate translation of ‘entole’ in both bible verses..

Oracio wrote:

”Notice that the last one from Ephesians is a direct quote of the 5th Commandment, and that Paul applies that commandment to Christians. And there are many other such examples which I have posted and which you seem to be ignoring or avoiding. Friend, don't tell believers they are not obligated to obey God's moral laws.”

True, but Paul is not telling anyone to return to keeping the Mosaic Law, Paul merely wrote a truism that was listed in the Mosaic Law. Salvation is a gift from God to us through the finished work of His only begotten Son on the cross. If we put ourselves back under the Mosaic Law, we nullify God’s gift and salvation through His only begotten Son, our Lord, Jesus.

Oracio wrote:

“Again, we are not under any obligation to obey any ceremonial or civil laws of the Old Covenant. But we are clearly bound by the Lord as His servants to obey His moral laws.”

And how long have you been keeping all the moral laws?

And you are bound to keep the moral laws by what?

Is it possible to sin all your life, and also keep the moral laws?

Consider this: 1 Jn 1:5-10
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us. NASU

John, the Apostle Jesus loved, wrote that we will never stop sinning as long as we live. I know I have. Like, I do not like to sin, it embarrasses me. I want to be perfect. But, as many here already know, I am far from being perfect. On the other hand, I am humbled by my sins, and for this very reason I am so much more dependent on, and trusting in God, and not on my self and my will and ability. I’m so glad to know that when I confess my sins, that God is faithful to forgive me, and that HE WILL CLEANSE ME FROM ALL UNRIGHTOESNESS. And He did so through His son, The Lamb of God, whose blood has washed away all my sins - past, present, and future.

The Law sets the mind on the flesh, and it planted seeds in my flesh that caused me to sin more and more, and the more and more I tried not to not sin, the more sinful and weak I became, until I cried out to Him and confessed to God that I can not stop sinning, for my mind was set on sin continually. And I threw myself on His mercy. And I stopped trying to stop sinning, I told Him I can’t stop, and I kept myself before God and called upon Him to fulfill 1 Jn 1:5-10. And today, I have a great fellowship with God, a true love relationship, even though I still sin but it’s nothing as like as before. I do confess my known sins to Him, knowing that He loves me and that He will cleanses me from all righteousness. I believe God. He is my true love, He has my heart, Our love binds us.

If I were to use words to say what my relationship is with God, I would use these words from a 1946 song.

When He takes me in His arms
He speaks to me so low
I see my life en rose

He tells me words of love,
Every Day these words,
And this does something to me.

He has entered my heart,
With a happiness,
Of which I know the cause,

It’s Him for me, and me for Him, in my life,
He tells me this, everyday, of my life,

And these things become apparent,
Then I sense in me,
my beating heart.

I thought that love was just a word
They sang about in songs I heard
It took your death to reveal
That I was wrong and love is real

And again, we are not saved nor do we keep our salvation by keeping God's moral laws, but only by God's grace(unmerited favor), it is His grace and the indwelling Holy Spirit that saves us and also changes us from the inside out, giving us new desires that naturally conforms our nature God's by which we will naturally keep His moral commandments simply because we find it a great pleasure to do so.

The Mosaic Law sets our minds on sin and sets us off on tangents away from God.

The Laws of Jesus Christ draws us to God. His commandments are no burden, but a true gift from God to us, and true fellowship with God.

1. The Royal Law of Love. Love God with all your heart, mind and soul, and your neighbor as yourself. And we are to be that neighbor to others.

2. The Law of Liberty. Mercy Triumphs over Judgement. Measure for Measure for as you measure others, so will you be measured, the standards by which we each Judge others, so shall we be judged. Forgive and you will be forgiven, pardon and you will be pardoned.

3. The Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus: Read Romans Chapter 8, which is the ultimate conclusion of the previous chapters of Paul's long argument on the state of salvation of Christians.

Quite often when Paul references 'Commandments' He is referring to these Commandments of Jesus Christ, and not the commandments God gave Moses.

Oracio on 2012/1/19 9:41:06 wrote:

ArtB wrote: "The LAWS of Moses does not forbid lying. It forbids false testimony in a Court of Law where penalties are an issue. The ancient Jewish Midrash contains Jewish teachings on the proper times and situations when it is proper and righteous to tell a lie, or lies, or mislead."

That's seeing only the letter of the 9th Commandment. It goes further than that. Here are just a few examples:

"You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man."(Ps.5:6)

"Lying lips are an abomination to the LORD, But those who deal truthfully are His delight."(Prov.12:22)

Scenario:

Oracio, in the goodness of your heart, you decide to follow your neighbor choice to hide a Jewish family, in his home. In order to protect them from the Nazis, and you decide this is good and you take in a Jewish family too.

You're in town buying a few necessities, when two SS Nazis walk up to you and ask you if you know of any homes that are hiding Jews in their home.

Is your answer really going to be: "Oh darn, I was hoping you wouldn't ask me that. Yes, there are Jews in my home and at my next door neighbors house." and you say this because: "Lying lips are an abomination to the LORD, But those who deal truthfully are His delight."

Now, will you concede that what I wrote has merit, namely:

"The ancient Jewish Midrash contains Jewish teachings on the proper times and situations when it is proper and righteous to tell a lie, or lies, or mislead, in some situations."

Now I do not believe you would do that, but then, you would be agreeing that there are occasions when boldly lying is a good moral choice.

ArtB, thanks for taking the time to reply in such detail to my posts. For the most part I see we are in much agreement. On some things we will have to agree to disagree at this time brother. The Lord bless you and make His face to shine upon you.
In Christ,
Oracio

If we put ourselves back under the Mosaic Law, we nullify God’s gift

Circumcision is a Commandment of the Mosaic Law. Paul informs us that it is not a Law of the New Covenant

Likewise the reverse is true.
Even though Paul rebuked the “Judaizers” for demanding circumcision, he required it of Timothy - for the sake of some Jews. Obviously the difference was purpose: In the one case it violated the spirit of the law, and in the other it supported the spirit of the law. In one instance it was legalistic righteousness; in the other love.

As I ponder this whole topic of law vs grace/gospel/spirit, I am seeing that the issue is not the law per se, but one’s approach to it. One can have an OC approach to the NT – and then NT is approached as a legal code (Did you catch that in my testimony earlier? I was hoping someone would.) Martin Lloyd –Jones addresses that problem in his commentary on the Sermon on the Mount. He says that it is not a list of instructions as much as a portrayal of a person who is a true Christian. The Sermon on the Mount can never be approached as a list of rules, or applied to unbelievers.

I was once reminded that the Bible is not a comprehensive book of rules for living for all time and cultures. Even for ancient Israel, the Mosaic Law didn’t touch on everything going on in their lives. It was representational. Furthermore, we see laws (instructions) in scripture that are archaic today. They no longer apply because culture changed. For example today prostitutes don’t distinguish themselves by having short hair. Today we observe many laws which could never have been written in scripture. Imagine Paul’s readers trying to understand instructions regarding praise and worship wars, the use of pharmaceuticals, or some contemporary issue. Yet no instruction in scripture can be overlooked because they all support a principle which we do wish to retain.

Does that make sense?

you would be agreeing that there are occasions when boldly lying is a good moral choice.

We can see the folly of observing laws without any sense of consciousness to the over-all law of love. So, why would we insist on keeping the letter. This was a serious issue during WW2. My grandfather who hid Jews in the underground movement found himself running against those who believed one must never tell a lie – regardless of the circumstance. This issue divided the church when unity could have helped save so many more Jews. And look how many times even today damage results when the Great Commandment is eclipsed by disputes over smaller laws .

PS Hope you didn’t mind me butting in here – after I’ve slipped away for a while. This is a worthy subject to battle over. I’m still working on it in my own mind.

God bless you all,

Diane

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Righteousness is obtained by faith. The 10 commandments and their true meaning have been written on our hearts where all sin comes from. Our hearts.

Out of the good treasure or evil treasure of the heart we bring either one.

The outward commandments have become internalized within, written on the heart as well as all the commandments of God in Christ Jesus. We are now led by the Spirit who fully agrees with the Word. Even the Sabbath, which has become Christ, is now Christ within.

Pilgrim

There have been some "Christians" that have had a difficult time with Brother Andrew who would "deceive" nations by secretly smuggling in Bibles. This is done by many today and they smuggle in many other useful things, too, while smuggling out lives if they can. Of course, they are breaking many laws of the governments of this world.

The Law of Liberty or the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus is the highest law that trumps all of men's laws and the Holy Spirit never leads God's children to sin.

The circumcision of the heart, is an operation of the Spirit and not the letter.

Jesus showed us all the commandments of God are written on our hearts and we are now led by the Spirit who always agrees with the Word as the Holy Spirit interprets it fo us. That is why Jesus could travel and work on the Sabbath (Heal) and allow His disciples to work (travel and pick corn).

Psa 89:14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.
Psa 89:15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance.

Many do not know the "joyful sound" of liberty in Christ.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Blessed is the people that know the JOYFUL SOUND!

Pilgrim

by Oracio on 2012/1/20 10:52:44

ArtB, thanks for taking the time to reply in such detail to my posts. For the most part I see we are in much agreement. On some things we will have to agree to disagree at this time brother. The Lord bless you and make His face to shine upon you.
In Christ,
Oracio"

Oracio, you are my brother in Christ, thanks for sharing your views. What I write is simply meant to be food for thought, and some Iron sharping Iron, I'm far from being infallible.

May God pour His Spirit upon you and bless you many times over.

Diane, I have read your posts, they were good in many ways, but I usually do not respond to posts I have no issue with. But I write now because I want you to know I appreciated your very well thought out and sincere responses.

As Jesus said: 'Ask and you shall receive,'

Most pleased to meet you via this forum.

I broke my silence to let you know this.

May God's blessings rain down upon you.

Art, I am deeply touched and encouraged by your words. It's true that the squeaky wheel gets the grease; and when wheels are working okay, nobody notices (as it should be). So words of encouragement are especially precious.

May God delight you with his tender presence in your days ahead. May he be near, during your times of solitude.

Diane

If you are born again, and possess His Holy Spirit, I suggest you "get out of the box", so to speak, and see the body of Christ as God does...because by cutting off as many souls as you do, you may be found to be cutting off Christ Himself.

One body, One faith, One Baptism, One Lord...unto all in the World.

Good words BrotherTom. Glad you did not say, "If you are born-again and have all the right doctrines".

He that hath the Son hath life and He that hath not the Son, hath not life. (1 John)

Pilgrim