The battle of sexuality

My post is more towards homosexuality and maybe bi sexuality. The bible tells us homosexuality is wrong. It is somewhat even explicit in the OT as well and it is reaffirmed in the book of Romans.

I notice more and more that homosexuality is quickly becoming an accepted way of life through media outlets and through surfing the internet. Christian thought is quickly becoming an outcast and castigated as bigotry, hate speech, homophobe and all that other non sense.

I have sat back and taken all of this in and wondered what is really causing this to happen? It is an easy thing to say it is Satan doing this and really I think it is cop out answer. Yeah, the general idea may be true but we end up doing alot of damage by saying it is all satan.

I reflect back on my women's studies class about something my professor told me and I wonder if it translates to this. He stated that as men get older they lose testostrone and their estrogen levels rise in their senior years. Women have the same thing happen to them in their bodies with testostrone rising in their later years. So I wondered, those who say they are homosexual and really show the flamboyant signs, meaning, listening to their speech and their mannerisms and you will know that they are 'different'or probably a homosexual.. Do you think this could be caused by an unbalancement of hormones and this is causing these people to practice homosexuality?
How does this relate to the bible precedent of homosexuality being wrong. When it comes to hormones it becomes a natural imbalance and maybe there is some influence of the supernatural in some cases.

I see 2 camps on this debate. Those who use the bible to say homosexuality is wrong and those who say they were born that way type of thing and they were always inclined to be that way. How do we take the bible and make it relateable to understand why people are naturally inclined to practice homosexuality? Yes, people loved sin rather than loving God can be introduced but does that really answer the question? Seems it needs to go even deeper than that.

However you go about analysing this, I think if you don't have a worldview that includes the three heavens (and heavenly battles) then you're bound to end up with a natural (i.e. partial) analysis leading to skewed conclusions.

'Satan is doing it' is simplistic yet misleadingly so. For instance, I heard an account in one of Derek Prince's sermons of a mother who had dabbled in the occult while pregnant (trying to divine the gender of her baby) who (as it turns out?) later fell to homosexuality. Of course, I'm not drawing a hard-and-fast relationship. . . what I am saying is don't discount curses, open doors to demons, and sins themselves as God's judgement (a la 'God GAVE THEM OVER to their lusts and passions' in judgement. . .)

ET101

I hear what you are saying.

On the one hand a person can say that those who are saying they are homosexual are saying they are born that way so it is natural for them and they know no other way. The other hand could say it is all a spiritual battle and these people are led by satan. I think both of them are flawed personally. I don't think satan can be blamed for it all and I don't think 'being born' that way is the answer to it. I think it is somewhere in the middle.

I have a homosexual uncle and I have wondered why and how he went this way. At one time he was engaged to be married and she just ran away. Not long after this he became a homosexual yet I don't know if it was a natural tendency for him or if he was conditioned for it.
I had a friend of mine who confided that he struggled with homosexual feelings. He was the worship leader in a small church I attended. We became fast friends but he didn't talked about relationships with girls. He was a bit of a recluse but he would stay in his bedroom and preach to the angels. A few times I spent the night at his house we took turns doing that very thing-preach to the angels. I broke friendship with him because his attitude became one of control. Not long after that I found out that he succumbed to his feelings of homosexuality. He spoke to me over the phone only once after our split and spoke to me about his heartbreak of his boyfriend leaving him. I haven't spoken to him since that time.

I also wonder, has the land sinned so much that God is allowing this parade of homosexuality to run rampant among our society to give us up to what we want in our hearts. This becomes a spiritual origin of sin but in the personal lives of homosexuals how much of it is spiritual and how much of it is natural?

I don't know how much is 'natural' and how much is 'spiritual.' I know there are Christians who struggle with homosexual thoughts on an ongoing basis who don't identify as homosexual - so they acknowledge it is sin and run from it (thoughts and actions) yet the temptation is there.

My (completely unresearch and unsubstantiated) sense for what some people describe as 'being born that way' is that for as far back as they can remember they've had this sort of inclination. . .and they might give in to it at some point. . .or not have a moral reason to resist it. So they weren't born 'homosexual' per-se but born with an inclination to it. . .then nature+nurture+spirit = manifest homosexual.

How much natural/spiritual? I don't know. . .also along with 'natural' it's accurate to include psychological/sociological factors (along with physiological ie. hormones etc). For instance, I've come across a sense of a higher proportion of cross-dressing in some Pacific Island countries. . . it's accepted.

Has the land sinned so much for God to give it over to its lusts and passions? I can only say there is so much sin in the land and God has done it before. . .

PS: I think many of us (Christians) are still so conditioned to thinking in a non-spiritual worldview. We look for cause and effect in the confines of atoms, ideas and historic pattern. I personally believe we need to break out from this and learn to see the world from the heavens inward - from God's purposes, from God's agenda and from spiritual heavenlies where our enemies reside.

Do you think this could be caused by an unbalancement of hormones and this is causing these people to practice homosexuality?

It is a very Good Question. I wanted to post this question and answer it myself so that the Christians would understand the truth. But somehow I missed to let my view on this topic. I want everyone to read my full post as I feel God has given me light in this area.

First of all no mater what science says, we Christians have to believe that Homosexuals are not born as they are. We might be looked down like fools, I believe many posters here will look down on me for saying this. But it is a fact, just how Evolution and Bible cannot be true same way Born as Homosexual and homosexual sin cannot be true. I heard many pastors saying that these people are born like that still they have to give up this life and follow God because God's word says so. This is not true. Such pastors only show their lack of scripture and lack of fellowship with God.

As a young man my sexual drive (for women) was high right from the age of 13, I wanted to experience it and I know it is true with many Boys and girls. But does that mean premarital sex is not sin? God lets us have sexual desires at young age so that we will learn to control it and be master over our sexual desires to apply them only in marriage bed. If God has designed us in such a way that we will have sexual desires only after marriage then after marriage we would have all gone wild with our desires. I believe my dependency on God to control my sexual desires before marriage is helping me in my day today married life. So one should not blame God for the desires that come in our heart, having a desire to do something does not mean you are allowed to do it. If a man is born with desires to kill then is it lawful for him to commit murder?

Back to Homosexuality, the origin of it is very clear in Bible. Romans 1 blames that people lost their reverence for God and exchanged their NATURAL desires which is opposite sexual attraction with unnatural sexual desires which is same sex attraction. So Bible is clear that natural desire in any man or women is to be attracted to opposite sex and Nature also proves it. Two same sex couple cannot have a baby and produce mankind in Natural way.

Some of your friends might say they never got attracted to opposite sex so they are born with same sex desires. Do not believe them, these people are influenced by already Homosexual friends and this influence has caused them to believe that their nature itself is different. For example, a baby boy who is raised by two Gays will also have high chance of Growing into Gay. Because this is what he sees everyday and he thinks this is natural. So I would encourage Christian parents not to let their kids to be with Gay or homosexual kids. It might influence their sexuality as well.

Another reason for high number of Gays in US is the increase in number of Single parents in US. Young Girls and Boys Grow with high attachment to opposite sex parent (either Single Mom or Dad) and hence the same sex becomes an unknown entity. We always have an attraction to unknown entity. That is why we see Old men and women who had sex with opposite sex partners all their life gets to try the unknown which is same sex partner at their latter age. This is not some Hormonal issue.

Deadn, Here is a Christian website related to the homosexual issue.
http://exodusinternational.org/

Click on FAQ - and you may find answers to your questions.
You'll find some stirring testimonies here too.

You raise a huge topic which has many ramifications (and volatile emotions). There is no lack of people with more opinion than helpful knowledge. Becoming informed is an important way to meet the challenge appropriately.

May God bless you with insight and Holy Spirit compassion as you work your way through this concern that is pressing on your heart.

Diane

Diane
I know this issue can be volatile but it really needs to be dealt with and examined very carefully. I bring it up because I see it more and more in society and more people who are not homosexual seemingly helping to lead the parade while labeling christians and those who do not agree with negative labels. Christians are seen as bible thumpers with this issue because the 'bible' says.......

Yet, I Know we have to take what the bible says and follow it up with compassionate humanity in order to reach the hearts of homosexuals BUT if homosexuality has to do with hormones or other 'natural' activity going on within the body I don't think necessarily declaring something in the Name of Jesus is going to correct the problem in most cases. This makes me sound unchristian on paper but I think the reality of it is true.

I see an assault on christians on this topic and I see it creeping up to my doorstep to the point where I really need to undersand it and know how to deal with it properly without causing undo harm to the soul of a person beyond what is already there.

I am finding very often that people accept homosexuality more and more and the 'nature itself tells you it is wrong' is quickly going out the window. Animal kingdom examples are brought forth to show it exists there. I have my own answers for that mess, lol.

I will look at exodus international and see what they have to say as well.
Do you see where I am going?

Oh one more thing, someone mentioned desenitization. There is the show 'Modern Family' which is an ironic name for the content. The Gay couple on the show makes me laugh. It is the reason why I watch it if and when I do yet how many watches are getting desensitized by it? Is it happening to me? I don't know but I Guard my heart on it. btw, I see that show maybe every other week to every 3rd week if that.

Yet, I Know we have to take what the bible says and follow it up with compassionate humanity in order to reach the hearts of homosexuals BUT if homosexuality has to do with hormones or other 'natural' activity going on within the body I don't think necessarily declaring something in the Name of Jesus is going to correct the problem in most cases. This makes me sound unchristian on paper but I think the reality of it is true.

This is the exact view I am opposing in my previous post. Can you please read my previous post?
Brother, both of them cannot be true. Either Bible should be true or Science. One cannot take the stand you are taking.
Do you believe in Evolution? No right then what makes you believe in Science?
Either Jesus is God and he came back from dead, as we all believe or he should have been a mad man claiming that he is Son of God. But there cannot be a balance between the two, saying he is a good teacher but not actually God etc.

Oh one more thing, someone mentioned desenitization.

But note: The Romans epistle quickly moves (in Chapter 2) towards a different kind of desensitization – something insidiously more evil: That of the desensitization among God’s people. These people are acutely adept at registering societal evils as sin – but they are unable to register their own sins. Their consciences are blind, and so they merrily set out to help others eradicate sin, but they themselves break God’s law. As you read on in Romans, you see what that law is, which God’s people are required to observe.

In your mission, Deadn, the best way to avoid getting derailed in the Romans 2 predicament, is to precede forward through the chapters in Romans. Let them sink into every fiber of your being. And then…. clothed in the Lord Jesus, you will be well-equipped to proclaim Jesus Christ into the hearts of those who do not know his abundant life, and are trying to make life work in their own strength – yes even your homosexual relative. And then you will not be a stumbling block, as so many zealous Christians have become, who are blind guides, and who aggressively and ruthlessly take a stand against this one most glaring societal sin: homosexuality.

What could be more sinful than God's people abandoning their attentiveness to the only Hope for our fallen world (and hiding their sin behind a preoccupation with the sins of others).

May Rom. 15:19 be true in your life:

“Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you,
but I want to you to be wise about what is good and innocent about what is evil.”

"… to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ....
that the nations might believe and obey him.. (:26)

Diane

"First of all no mater what science says, we Christians have to believe that Homosexuals are not born as they are. We might be looked down like fools, I believe many posters here will look down on me for saying this. But it is a fact, just how Evolution and Bible cannot be true same way Born as Homosexual and homosexual sin cannot be true."

Science is a field of love and hate relationships. Science gives us so much in the advancement of society that a person really has to be careful when that advancement crosses the line into falsehood. How much do we rely on science to help us in so many areas? Than one wonders how they get some things so seemingly wrong? According to christian doctrine.

"Some of your friends might say they never got attracted to opposite sex so they are born with same sex desires. Do not believe them, these people are influenced by already Homosexual friends and this influence has caused them to believe that their nature itself is different. For example, a baby boy who is raised by two Gays will also have high chance of Growing into Gay. Because this is what he sees everyday and he thinks this is natural. So I would encourage Christian parents not to let their kids to be with Gay or homosexual kids. It might influence their sexuality as well.

Another reason for high number of Gays in US is the increase in number of Single parents in US. Young Girls and Boys Grow with high attachment to opposite sex parent (either Single Mom or Dad) and hence the same sex becomes an unknown entity. We always have an attraction to unknown entity. That is why we see Old men and women who had sex with opposite sex partners all their life gets to try the unknown which is same sex partner at their latter age. This is not some Hormonal issue."

I used to think this same way myself but I wondered how much credibility it held. I used to think that many of those who say they are homosexual went this way as a result of molestation in their early years. It seems more and more I don't hear those stories anymore. I Hear stories of 'I was just a different person from the other kids when I was younger'.
I remember being in elementary and there was this kid who seemed just weird in his ways. He didn't act like the typical boy and as a result sometimes was made fun of. Later, when he got into high school I found out that he came out of the closet and his mannerisms came out even more. It was as if they were boxed in as a kid. He had parents and I actually worked with him on a project in elementary school and I cringed a bit because of his mannerisms. I think back to his life and wondered what happened there? Naturally speaking his make up seemed to be this yet I also wonder does he have a hormone imbalance?

I know in Romans it talks about homosexuality yet how do we reconcile those who do know how the single parent thing, don't have the molestation thing going on in their lives that could have caused them to become homosexual? We do run a danger of making this thing too much of an emotional issue and allowing ourselves to accept homosexuality as normal as a result of touching emotional stories and we can't go down that road. Yet, it would not be right to point the finger using the bible in a hard way as well- would it? Too many christians have pointed the finger of blame in this area.

My parents divorced when I was 13? My brother and I lived with mom. Dad was 6 blocks down the street but always criticized us for going with mom. In his words we were going to hell for going with a divorcee. Meantime, mom made it a point to work her tail off and raise us up with morals and such whereas dad lived in pain. I didn't have any sexual attraction to any males at all and if I did it was subtle stuff and never went into action.

Lastly, Sree- do you know for sure that what you say in this last paragraph is correct or are you making a good guess that it has got to be true? The arguments that I see steer away from this and as a result I am trying to understand how to understand this thing and what is exactly happening with homosexuality.

This is the exact view I am opposing in my previous post. Can you please read my previous post?
Brother, both of them cannot be true. Either Bible should be true or Science. One cannot take the stand you are taking.
Do you believe in Evolution? No right then what makes you believe in Science?
Either Jesus is God and he came back from dead, as we all believe or he should have been a mad man claiming that he is Son of God. But there cannot be a balance between the two, saying he is a good teacher but not actually God etc.

Sree
What should we throw Science out for anything? We use science for so much in the advancement of society. That doesn't mean we can believe science for everything because sometimes it goes off the road. Sciences uses only the natural world for its results yet should we see the bible glorified through it for if God made this natural world surely we would see His fingerprint in it whether we choose to acknowledge it or not.

Do I believe in evolution? No, but I also am not settled that the Earth is 6000 years old either.I am just not sure what is going on there but for me it really doesn't matter. Proving who Jesus is easier than proving that the Earth is 6,000 years old because of evidence of history. We only have the Bible to show the Earth might be 6000 years old based on our study of the verses from the original manuscripts but then if that is the case what is science missing that it says the Earth is Millions of years old?

Can you tell me that you really throw science out the window in all regards because it doesn't always match up with the Bible? Just curious.

In your mission, Deadn, the best way to avoid getting derailed in the Romans 2 predicament, is to precede forward through the chapters in Romans. Let them sink into every fiber of your being. And then…. clothed in the Lord Jesus, you will be well-equipped to proclaim Jesus Christ into the hearts of those who do not know his abundant life, and are trying to make life work in their own strength – yes even your homosexual relative. And then you will not be a stumbling block, as so many zealous Christians have become, who are blind guides, and who aggressively and ruthlessly take a stand against this one most glaring societal sin: homosexuality.

The very last beginning with 'zealous' is one key factor why I have pursued this a bit. zealousness in the scriptures can do ALOT of harm to people.
'Aggressively and ruthlessly'- Should those even been terms associated with Christians? Maybe Agressively in wisdom but ruthless has no part. It is my opinion that some Christians will take the Romans road and use it as a machine gun to kill people with it instead of calling them to repentance. It is a 'natural' tendency to do such a thing when one gets a 'religious' spirit.

My whole intention is to understand why homosexuals, and specifically the ones who are very flamboyant to the point that you don't have to hear them speak, their mannerisms show you they they are 'different' and how to approach this in accordance to the gospel.

I will be looking at exodus international to see what they have to say about it as well.

hi, the gay lifestyle is a lifestyle of sin but so is the heterosexual lifestyle outside of marriage. i will stand up with the homosexual people and love them and witness to them and demonstrate the love of Jesus to them for they need a redeemer like everyone else. their sin is against natural life and is declared worse then your sin or mine. ido not understand the attraction of a man with another man romanically and i know that they will be delivered up as reprobates but i have seen some converted(saved) and delivered. i will myself to love these people for i believe that Jesus died for them ,also.

Jimp
I agree with what you say and I stand with you in what you have said.

My whole intention is to understand why homosexuals, and specifically the ones who are very flamboyant to the point that you don't have to hear them speak, their mannerisms show you they they are 'different' and how to approach this in accordance to the gospel.

This looks like an honorable goal, Deadn. You wish to understand gays so that you can meaningfully engage the good news of Jesus Christ in their lives. I might be able to provide some direction. I took a seminary course called ‘Human Sexuality in a Christian Perspective” taught by Dr. Ephraim Radner of Wycliffe Seminary, Toronto. He might be able to direct you further. Dr. Radner has been defending the position against ordination of gays in the Anglican Church, and he is very much a leader in this. He is well-equipped with knowledge and research, and his defense is well-secured Biblically (I believe). You get meaty content from him,putting it mildly. Don't expect to be spoon fed with instant answers. As far as the behaviors you mention, I’m sure you may get some help there too. (I cannot post the course content here, because it would be a copywrite infringement.)

BTW, Dr. Radner has written a commentary on Leviticus in which he demonstrates how homosexuality is a violation, not merely of an outdated OT law, but of the nature of God as a God of life. In other words, he brings the purity law code forward into the gospel of Christ – and the purpose of Christ - to give Life. (Of course, that principle has implications for other contemporary issues which have to do with the restriction of life.)

we Christians have to believe that Homosexuals are not born as they are.

Deadn, you mention the various social conditions that are “blamed” for homosexuality, and you also note that those conditions may be absent for some. So true! Statistics merely reveal tendencies. I don’t think they are necessarily always used as an “excuse”.

We can all point to gays who were raised in good Christian families. Yet if we could look closer, we would have to say that even “good” families can be fractured in many ways. Also, we can’t see the countless other factors that affect the shaping of an individual.

Here’s contact info: Wycliffe College Faculty Page

http://www.wycliffecollege.ca/faculty.php?aid=8 Click on Dr. Radner’s “Show Details” link. I don’t see much in the publications per se on homosexuality, but his email address and phone number is here.
(you probably should give him my name: Diane Eaton)

Roadsign
Thanks for the link. I have sent an email to him. I was also sent a link from a moderator which I am looking in to.

Normally I wouldn't care about this whole thing but I noticed it is becoming common place in America and I am seeing it much too often even in blogs and I want to be able to confront it but be intelligent and not lean on emotional nonsense to rebuke it.

Normally I wouldn't care about this whole thing but I noticed it is becoming common place in America and I am seeing it much too often even in blogs and I want to be able to confront it but be intelligent and not lean on emotional nonsense to rebuke it.

Deadn, I’m happy about your desire to wade through the mountains of visible evidence and intelligently discern the issue of homosexuality. And yes, keeping free from emotional influences is a challenge. I’ll share one story to illustrate your concern:

My course assignments included writing critical reviews of various books related to the topic of sexuality in the Christian perspective. One book was a debate between two biblical scholars – one for and one against homosexuality. They each used the Bible to support their positions. In my observation the nay-sayer used a substantial amount of shaky biblical support – proof texting and reading into passages what is not there. He was, in my estimation, colored by his emotions and rationalizations. This merely gave his opponent points to argue against, and thus lend credence to his argument that homosexuality is a biblically acceptable lifestyle. So then - the position one supports may be right, but the defense might be in error. In such cases, silence may be safer.

If you are keen, you may wish to broaden your investigation of social issues. For example, anorexia is a growing concern. Anorexics ban together, especially on the internet, to support their condition and to glorify it.It's like their own Pride Movement. And they have the fashion industry on their side.

Yet anorexia is a life threatening condition. Many are dying from it. Three of my students are anorexics in treatment. Yet there is nothing in the Bible that says anorexia is an abomination. That’s because that did not exist in Bible days - nor a lot of our social abominations that are unique to an affluent culture like ours.

So, while homosexuality is a legitimate concern, there is a host of social ailments that are at the present far more destructive and dangerous. We Christians must ask why there is so little said about, say, anorexia and far more about homosexuality? What does that say about our approach to scripture?

Deadn, God bless you!
Looking forward to hearing more from you,

Diane

We Christians must ask why there is so little said about, say, anorexia and far more about homosexuality?

Because God abhors homosexuality in scripture, not anorexia. One is a sin, the other is not.

We need to be careful in claiming that the two are equals. They are not. If so, the Lord would have said so.

So, while homosexuality is a legitimate concern, there is a host of social ailments that are at the present far more destructive and dangerous.

Sister, this is just plain false and unbiblical. The Lord tells us in His Word what will lead to Hell. A homosexual lifestyle leads to Hell. What can be worse than that?.?.?. unless it leads to Hell as well, which would make it equally as bad.

We need to remember to not add to the Lord's Word. He has this thing figured out.

If you are keen, you may wish to broaden your investigation of social issues. For example, anorexia is a growing concern. Anorexics ban together, especially on the internet, to support their condition and to glorify it.It's like their own Pride Movement. And they have the fashion industry on their side.

Hmm, although anorexia is a trouble child it doesn't match the movement of homosexuality across America and the world in general.

One of the major debates that I see in this field is that people throw out the bible and use buzz words to shun out Christians to cause them to look like bigots as well as other words.
I recently asked a group of people on a blog what foundation do they stand on to say that homosexuality is ok and good. I told them that I stand on the precepts of the bible as well as the physiology of gender.

one last thing, Speaking of anorexia, have you seen the girl in the T mobile commercial? She seems very tall but also Very think. I have noticed that when she walks she walks with her elbows inward and her forearms move outward, which is not naturally. I wonder if she practiced this? I call her 'arms' for which my wife laughs. She doesn't look healthy at all yet the fashion industry wants them that way. Yuck!

I recently asked a group of people on a blog what foundation do they stand on to say that homosexuality is ok and good. I told them that I stand on the precepts of the bible as well as the physiology of gender.

I use the same strategy when talking with gays, they usually come across in many words that society and their acceptance of the lifestyle is their foundation.

To which my reply is:

'Society' used to justify their hatred of people with black skin in the form of slavery'

'Society' justified the drowning (murder) of 19 men and women in the town of Salem, Massachusetts for being 'witches'

'Society' used to support segregation in the South

The one clear thing that we can see in 'society' is there track record in getting things wrong, and in another 100 years (if Jesus tarries that long) people will look back at today and say the same thing.

I have gays on my Facebook list, in fact my little cousin is now saying that he's gay. In the last year and a half I've watched him go from 'heterosexual' to 'bisexual' to now he says he's full on gay. It didn't happen overnight, it took awhile, I've watched the progression. It makes no difference to me because the same Jesus who set me free from my sin can change him in 1 flat second.

I find NO BASIS WHATSOEVER in science to support that people 'are born this way'. In order to accept that line of thinking I have to believe that the Lord somehow created something that was not perfect and that there is 'another class' of society that somehow exists where God made people gay and since He made people this way it has to be acceptable. This will NEVER be, the Lord makes this clear from the start of the bible until the very end.

It worries me when people start making 'medical' justification for sin.

Reading these last few posts brings grief to me. It exposes a disturbing reality: There are people in the world who understand the nature of sin and its ravaging impact better than the people of God – and yes – better than even some who know every jot and title in the Holy Book.

Because God abhors homosexuality in scripture, not anorexia. One is a sin, the other is not.

We need to remember to not add to the Lord's Word.

Not in the bible

We need to be careful in claiming that the two are equals. They are not. If so, the Lord would have said so.

God abhors homosexuality in scripture, not anorexia.

She doesn't look healthy at all yet the fashion industry wants them that way. Yuck!

But we can’t stop at merely expressing our aversion – as in: Yuck! God forbid! May God turn our repulsions into compassion – so that we can see beyond the ugliness and see the hidden heart crying for something that only God can give.

Anorexics use starvation as a survival tool, a means of having some measure of control, and note also: They hate their own bodies. They starve themselves in order to obliterate their sexuality - any sign of their femininity. Do you see here some possible similarities with homosexuality?

Homosexuality is the apex of sin that brings down a nation, it seems it's God's measuring stick

Let’s admit: Many homosexuals to a large extent are functioning quite well. They are our doctors, lawyers, musicians, clergy. They can be quite polite. In fact, in many ways they aren’t much different than many among the people of God: upstanding, righteous.. proud, and have no need of a thing. They are not blind, wretched, naked, and poor – no… not in their own eyes. But who will be held more accountable before God? Is it not those who have been given much – that is the good news of Christ, the Scriptures, a rich heritage of leaders, literature, etc. Is it acceptable, in our own state, to give ourselves a clean bill of health and expect some “gentile sinners” to be the lightening rod for God’s wrath?

It worries me when people start making 'medical' justification for sin.

More trouble is coming, …. but it won't hurt our mind, we will endure it.

we who trust in Him will be protected

Now that I have rambled on, I admit, I realize how pitifully lame my words really are. Who am I to break through our spiritual darkness, our coldness – even my own! That’s God’s job. And so I plead with God to soften our hearts. May he enliven our zealous passion for the things of God with a vibrant compassion for the HEART of God.

Diane

Anything that is not of faith is sin. Anorexia is not of faith...

I agree. I stand corrected on Anorexia not being sin. If it is not of faith, it is sin.

My issue is that claiming there are more destructive things in the world then homosexuality. Homesex leads to Hell. At least put all sin in the same category...

Who am I to break through our spiritual darkness, our coldness – even my own! That’s God’s job. And so I plead with God to soften our hearts.

Sister, please tell me why we should soften our hearts towards sin? That is exactly what the world is asking us to do.

If we are to soften our hearts, it should be softened towards people, not their sin.

Sister, please tell me why we should soften our hearts towards sin? That is exactly what the world is asking us to do.

Just curious, Miccah, How do you read this from my writings?

Diane

Anorexia and Bulimia is a spirit of fear.
... a host of other spirits more wicked

Approved, Your explanations about eating disorders raise my curiosity. Would you mind passing to me your information sources? Is there a website, book?

And, my apologies to deadn. I do not wish to divert your theme. I have merely set homosexuality in perspective with the wider range of symptoms associated with society’s spiritual malady – and in that way put a check on the tendency towards overly-narrowed focus. I raised Anorexia merely as a token example of many – and especially our own issues with pride and self- righteousness.

We don’t want to miss the forest for one tree - do we!

Diane

Just curious, Miccah, How do you read this from my writings?

The first thing that came to mind after reading your quote,

Who am I to break through our spiritual darkness, our coldness

...Is that we are talking about homosexuality, and that those who feel it is sin are in "spiritual darkness/coldness. Sister, I could just be reading too far into what you are saying I admit.

It would have been proper for me to ask this instead. Do you believe that being a homosexual is a sin that damns you to Hell? Do you believe that we should speak out against being homosexual to those who profess Christ and to those who don't?

Thanks

Brother Miccah,

After I wrote my lengthy post it occurred to me that I was not just airing my thoughts to you SIers – but to people in my wider experience. Maybe that’s how most of us write: We also "talk" to those whom we have encountered in our lives – people we have met or maybe simply ideas that have concerned us. So, when I addressed you, I was also sounding off my burden to an undefined “audience”. You, bro, just happened to be sitting in the front row.

Do you ever do that? With that in mind, I can honestly say that I empathize with your concern regarding the massive denial of sin –or rather, of the full-orbed implication of human sinfulness - ultimately hell. And, to be sure, homosexuals have been a visual aid of a much wider truth about humanity – that is, truth about the inner most place.

What troubles me is not merely the denial of sin, but the Christians' preoccupation with their scrawny compilation of superficial sin-symptoms. Jesus did not come merely to patch up the most “obvious” sins, but to make new people. Jesus also said that the ones who would come to him first were the worst ones of that day – the prostitutes and tax collectors.

Mercy is not leniency. Neither is a soft heart permissiveness. It is patience with the sinfulness of others – because that is how God is towards us. Why! He loved us and cared for us even when we were his outright enemies!

And about speaking against other people's sins as our mission, I say: It will merely wear us out. And we'll miss most of the sins anyway - including our own. Better to stick to our true calling - lest we be held accountable for failing in that. Furthermore, speaking against sin does not mean you have lifted even a finger to help extract it.

Diane

This may have been suggested already, but anything by Joe Dallas would help. His book, A Stong Delusion, even has their arguments in there along with how you would respond. This is a very difficult thing. I went through it a few weeks ago with a lesbian that says she's a Christian. The encouragement I had was after placing the truth there and trying to make sure she knew I wasn't out to get her the Lord burdened my spirit to pray for her...which means to me that He was working and invited me to participate.

Nope. There is only one sin that damns you to hell, unbelief! ALL other sin (including sodomy, murder or sins of omission) just emanates from degrees of unbelief.

By this thought, Satan is saved then. He believes. He stood next to the Lord.

Sorry OJ. If your living in unrepented sin, you are damned.

If you have an issue with this, please take it up with the Lord, it is His rules, not mine.

There is only one sin that damns you to hell, unbelief

By this thought, Satan is saved then. He believes

Joe and Miccah, It sounds like you are each referring to a different shade of meaning of the word “believe/belief” and in that sense your thoughts about belief are not mutually exclusive. I see no need to disagree – just get on the same page.

Consider the two shades of meaning as we see in this verse: “Lord I believe, help me overcome my unbelief”. Mark 9:24

Just think: Many who believe are believers. It's true isn't it!

Diane

hi, satan is not a man and he does not believe...he knows ...for he has been defeated byJesus already and the only power he has is deception e.g. discouragement,prideetc.he has been before the throne of God in heaven often. these are statements that sound cool but are not. only believe, all things are possible to those who believe. Jesus put the cookies on the bottom shelf so that a child can understand.do not put the onus on man for the work that Jesus did on the cross is a finished work and when He forgave your sin, He for gave all of your sin for they were all in the future from the cross.when He rose from the dead ,He gave you the ability to have eternal life. He did it all and His grace is all you need.jimp

So I guess there is no more need for repentance of sin then?

I'm all for grace, but I believe that man has a responsibility as well. Just like when Jesus spoke to the woman caught in adultry when He said, "I will not condemn you either, but do not sin again."

Don't wish to get into the whole cal v. arm debate though.

hi, the real repentance is the turning from your rule of your life to Gods rule of your life. if you confess your sins He is able to forgive and cleanse from all unrighteousness.the only way to walk in victory is to walk in the Spirit and trust in the victory already won by Jesus on the cross. Jesus is our redeemer, not our ability to hang on.jimp

jimp. We agree.

"False doctrine and worldliness always go hand in hand. Worldliness usually leads the way. The early modernists did not aim at destroying biblical Christianity. They simply tried to make Christianity palatable to an unbelieving world. It cannot be done. When Christianity becomes acceptable to unregenerate people--it has ceased to be Christianity!" - Kevin Turner

hi, when i first got saved , iwas walking down canal street in n.o. with my 8 pound red scofield bible under my arm and i might have run into kevin turner... a man came up tp to me looking very mean and asked me " are you saved?" for the first time in my life a could say yes and with excited lips did so... he then said " do you speak in tongues?" and i said that i have not heard of that yet... he then said then "your going to bust hell wide open" i quickly turned away from this mean, harsly speaking man and walked away sad and confused for all i knew was Jesus and john 3 :16 ...very true story in my life i became an evangelist (s.baptist) and because i had a hard time fighting lust of the flesh as a young man quit preaching so that i would not bring reproach on the gospel or Jesus by falling into sin. i went back in the jazz nite club busines on bourbon street where i might have met kevin a few times ...he might have been one of the deacons that kicked me out of the local church i attended because they served booze where i worked or maybe one of the many hard nosed christians that told me i had commited the unpardonable sin of taking the gospel into the guuter... it surely was not kevin but ron who asked me if he could by my lunch and coffee around the corner and told me that Jesus loved me as much now as he did when i was preaching because instead of feeling disgusted and discouraged ,i felt the prescense of a Holy God come all over me and in that restaurant began to sob tears of joy and love and repentance.it is the goodness of God that leads to repentance.two weeks later i was confessing all my sins beforew the Lord on my knees and i told the Lord i was a better sinner than i was a christian and i needed special help and was instantly bapized in the Holy Spirit having never been in a pentecostal church. yes we need to make God mean and following Him miserable to be what peole think a christian shoul be.notjimp

I do not believe the Bible preaches OSAS. Blessings!

hi, neither do i ,i believe in Jesus and trust in Jesus and every day choose who i will serve ,Jesus.these belief systems will never do anything to save or sanctify and you can do nothing... Jesus is what it is all about.jimp

by DEADn on 2012/1/19 2:01:23

My post is more towards homosexuality and maybe bisexuality. The bible tells us homosexuality is wrong. It is somewhat even explicit in the OT as well and it is reaffirmed in the book of Romans.

I notice more and more that homosexuality is quickly becoming an accepted way of life through media outlets and through surfing the internet. Christian thought is quickly becoming an outcast and castigated as bigotry, hate speech, homophobe and all that other non sense.

I have sat back and taken all of this in and wondered what is really causing this to happen? It is an easy thing to say it is Satan doing this and really I think it is cop out answer. Yeah, the general idea may be true but we end up doing alot of damage by saying it is all satan.

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Indeed, it is not all the fault of the Adversary, much as I think we would like for it to be so.

Having read the entire thread, I see much understanding of the sins of others, and many attempts to reach out to those who are in homosexuality. There is much compassion here, but there is also I think a forgetting of the simplistic in favor of the complicated.

We live in a broken world, in broken bodies, caused by the first sin...Adam's disobedience.

We have long left Eden, and innocence is not our portion, but please, remember that every choice that is made on this planet, even the simplist, has a consequence, on ourselves, and on others.

God gave us freewill choice, and we make those choices, but so do others, some in ignorence, or in indifference, and others led by their own sinful nature and sinful experiences, and they affect all of us in one way or another.

The choices by an unrepentant homosexual can cause soul threatening blows to the spirits of a young boy. There need not be contact...a simple witness of the wrong behavior can confuse and twist a young mind. And that young boy (or girl) will no longer see the simplicity of love and sexuality in a family group, but also worry about that other choice of life that has been exhibited to them.

In their broken body in a broken world, the child may begin to compare that which is good to that which is not-good, and perhaps seek out in his blindness to understand why there are two choices now...one of nature, and the family and of God, and the other of perverted nature, a lack or twisting of family that is forbidden of God, and the society in which the boy lives.

All of this is understandable. The choices of those more into the evil of homosexuality may see the open curiousity in the young boy, and use it, and him to feed their twistedness, taking pleasure even in hurting the young one, and leading him into their own hellish path.

But in the beginning, and in the end, we are working within a broken and twisted world, with brokenness in us
from the moment that Adam ate the forbidden fruit.

All good and evil is the result of the choices we make, based on what we have learned as we grow from birth to death. Without a loving protective family, the child is at risk, open to outside influence. That influence may not even be acting in deliberate evil, but making choices out of the impulses of kindness from their limited, or even twisted understanding of how to live.

But still, the child is tainted, and without good instruction and better protection from a Messiah centered family, that boy will be more and more open to making bad choices. And the consequence of the choice may lead quickly away from innocence, natural love and desire, and YHVH to all that is perverse and twisted until the boy is submerged in the evil choices of others.

Can he be rescued? In Yeshua, anything is possible.

All that we need to do is to offer The Way to the one on the wrong path, and make the narrow path of rightousness filled with those on it to love him, and give him a hand up when he falls, and boost him upward and onwards.

All that any of us do is either good and of YHVH, or it is not. The 'not good' is sin, whether it be an unkind word, or a blow with a sharp sword. Homosexuality is indeed a terrible and deeply planted behavior of sin, as is any action that hurts the self, the personal temple of Yeshua.

Anorexia is a pattern of behavior to destroy the body. It is a sin. So is anything we do that is not loving towards YHVH, or ourselves, or others.

It is good to understand the progression of choice that lead one to a life of perversity and self-destruction, but the sins are just that...imperfections created by poor choices within our freewill.

With Yeshua, our Kapparah, our Redeemer, what the sin is doesn't matter. He has taken the curse already for all sin, and when we choose to leave off following sin, and begin to follow Yeshua, well, we are saved, and will be made new in Him, as our Righteousness is in Him.

Yeshua wants us not merely to understand all that is involved in a lifestyle like homosexuality, but to fight against it, protect others from it as we can, to hate the sin and the twisted desires that prompt the sin, yet love and reach out in loving kindness to those that are sinning, and tell them that Yeshua loves them anyway. He hates their sin, as we all hate our sins, and the sins of theirs, especially as they impinge on us all so much more each day in this world.

Yeshua cannot but love all those who are trying to understand, and tolerate these sinners, but we cannot tolerate the sin. We too must choose to protect our own first against being drawn into bad choices that lead to sin. Then, in kindness and compassion, we must reach out to those that are not yet hardened in their sin, but are confused, and torn, and wretched in their life because of their own choices, and the choices of others that have left them confused, and twisted in the desires that afflict them.

Yes, there is a propensity to homosexuality in some 5% of mankind, because we are in a broken world, and are broken ourselves. After that, all is choice, both ours, and those around us, that affect us, and give us more and more difficult choices to make as we make our way through this life. We must remain clear that the repetition of the sin of homosexuality is mady by choice, as is all our sin.

The brokeness, and the actions of others affect us, but in the end, it is still a choice, our choice, and with freewill, there are consequences.

Q

there is a propensity to homosexuality in some 5% of mankind

Compare that to these recent statistics:

- One of every four adolescents in the U.S. is currently at serious risk of not achieving productive adulthood.
- 21 percent of U.S. children ages nine to 17 have a diagnosable mental or addictive disorder associated with at least minimum impairment.
- 20 percent of students report having seriously considered suicide in the past year.
- Our waiting lists are too long.

Imagine the effects this will have on our civilization in a very few years! I'm wondering if God's people shouldn't be giving more attention to correcting these issues - or rather, ministering hope into the lives of suffering people?

I agree with the above reference to the fallen nature. It is really the starting place, isn't it - beginning with ourselves.

Diane

by roadsign on 2012/1/24 14:15:58

there is a propensity to homosexuality in some 5% of mankind

Funny, I expected the statistics to be much higher – in view of the attention homosexuals get.

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Some claim that 10% is more accurate these days...perhaps because more among the GLBT community are so open about their lifestyle choice, particularly in the Western countries, but I think the 5% of the world population remains relatively constant.

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by roadsign on 2012/1/24 14:15:58

Compare that to these recent statistics:

- One of every four adolescents in the U.S. is currently at serious risk of not achieving productive adulthood.
- 21 percent of U.S. children ages nine to 17 have a diagnosable mental or addictive disorder associated with at least minimum impairment.
- 20 percent of students report having seriously considered suicide in the past year.
- Our waiting lists are too long.

Imagine the effects this will have on our civilization in a very few years! I'm wondering if God's people shouldn't be giving more attention to correcting these issues - or rather, ministering hope into the lives of suffering people?

I agree with the above reference to the fallen nature. It is really the starting place, isn't it - beginning with ourselves.

Diane

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Is this not part of our duty...to protect those that we have contact with through the Assemply, and then to offer relief in Yeshua for those that are torn into pieces by their desires and bad choices?

All are fallen...all have choices to make moment after moment, some adding up to tragic consequences such as homosexuality, suicide, depression, anorexia...it really matters very little what we call the sin.

We make choices, others make choices, and the ripples of all our actions affect one another. All we can do is choose to act in a way that is loving, kind, and compassionate to those caught in a large, encompassing sin such as homosexuality, reaching out in love, to protect the young ones among us, and pray to be able to intervene in someone else's confused life, and help them see that their sin can be abandoned, repented from, and that they can be free in Yeshua the moment they choose to.

Q

We make choices, others make choices

Once a pastor’s wife shared with me her struggle with homosexuality as a youth. For her trying to resist was extremely difficult. She told me how her arms ached to fulfil her longing. Fortunately the object of her drive was a female who happened to be a godly Christian leader who, she realized, would never fulfill her craving. She told how she was finally able to say “No” and eventually the desire faded – and she went on to live for God. This woman, it should be noted, was surrounded by strong Christian influence, which both helped and harmed. Her father, a zealous Charismatic, believed in literally following the Bible, but in his efforts, he severely deprived his daughter of the love she needed. It was a sickly form of “denial” - not what Jesus was talking about.

The point is, we assume that homosexuals always make a conscious choice to be one. But it is more likely that they don’t. Instead, they have failed to make a choice to resist becoming one, and so their initial participation in it ultimately reinforces their orientation and helps make it become a way of life. If I understand correctly, many who explore homosexual behavior in youth, do not end up being one. It’s not likely because they are less “sinful”, but due to other factors.

It is also important that we put less focus on those presenting behaviours which repulse us, and consider other issues - like a failure in a healthy formation of sexual identity. As I noted earlier, that weakness also underlies the anorexic condition …. and many other prevalent conditions and behaviors in our present society and church. Christians can be hampered by it too.

The statistics I raised refer to those who are at immediate risk. Not all homosexuals are in that category. I don’t know what percentage. Regardless, trying to tell anyone they have a sin problem when they are doing quite fine – is like trying to doctor someone who is not sick.

Jesus himself said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.” If we want to walk with Jesus on the dusty paths of life, we need to give up any overly narrowed focus on what disturbs US, and have the heart of Christ for others. Or we will merely be trying to remove speaks from people’s eyes, and increase the resistance to the gospel.

Meanwhile the harvest is white ...

I was told once: We are to be in a place in people's lives that when, down the road, they do find themselves in the place of need, they will know we can be trusted.

Otherwise, we will not be able to help them spiritually and emotionally when they most need it. We will not have earned their trust.

Diane

by roadsign on 2012/1/25 1:43:38

We make choices, others make choices

Once a pastor’s wife shared with me her struggle with homosexuality as a youth. For her trying to resist was extremely difficult. She told me how her arms ached to fulfil her longing. Fortunately the object of her drive was a female who happened to be a godly Christian leader who, she realized, would never fulfill her craving. She told how she was finally able to say “No” and eventually the desire faded – and she went on to live for God. This woman, it should be noted, was surrounded by strong Christian influence, which both helped and harmed. Her father, a zealous Charismatic, believed in literally following the Bible, but in his efforts, he severely deprived his daughter of the love she needed. It was a sickly form of “denial” - not what Jesus was talking about.

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Odd how the choices of this girl's own parent fostered her quest for love in the wrong places, presumably because he chose to follow a strict form of fundamentalism with strict behvior patterns, rather than bend a little, and love his child in the way she needed to be loved. Not that he probably ever knew her need, nor perhaps even expected her to have such desperate need of love and fulfillment. We all act so much in ignorance and carelessness that without Yeshua making all things to work out for us that love Him, and are indeed called according to His Purpose, we would find no righteous fulfillment without Him. But we can pray to be used of Him to help these young ones.

The sexual side of the matter I am sure did not come up in the beginning for her either, but merely the longing for a truly satisfying love. She was blessed to find her way out of the intricate pattern of choices she would have to have made to foster, much less remain in any homosexual relationship, and the more blessed that she recognized the object of her initial desire would never accept the sinful side of love that she thought would fulfil her.

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by roadsign on 2012/1/25 1:43:38

The point is, we assume that homosexuals always make a conscious choice to be one. But it is more likely that they don’t. Instead, they have failed to make a choice to resist becoming one, and so their initial participation in it ultimately reinforces their orientation and helps make it become a way of life. If I understand correctly, many who explore homosexual behavior in youth, do not end up being one. It’s not likely because they are less “sinful”, but due to other factors.

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Actually, I am sure that in the earliest stages of a improperly directed love interest the reality of there being anything deliberately chosen by the child is few and far between. The choices for ill are made by the actions and modeling of others long before the end result in the wrong kind of seed takes root, much less before it blossums in a recognizeable form to the child.

Confusion and despair are usually the lot of any child coming up against any complex set of feelings and behavior patterns that are a stumbling block for the child, and that long use and practice with the ill choices of those older than the child are necessary to develop into anything sinful at all. Unfortunately, the choices being made and acted upon can leave much damage behind without anyone meaning any ill to the child at all.

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by roadsign on 2012/1/25 1:43:38

It is also important that we put less focus on those presenting behaviours which repulse us, and consider other issues - like a failure in a healthy formation of sexual identity. As I noted earlier, that weakness also underlies the anorexic condition …. and many other prevalent conditions and behaviors in our present society and church. Christians can be hampered by it too.

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Truth, Sister, although I am surprised that anyone truly loving a child young in the pattern that leads to sin would be repulsed by the presenting behaviors in someone acting out. Saddened certainly, particularly when one is the only person noticing the occasional wrongness in the presentation behavior.

I have been blessed by sufficient exposure to wrong modeling and behavior while young myself to have grown to be relatively unaffected by homosexual and bi-sexual behavior patterns, but I find that in the confusion of the young still trying to find their way that I am hurt by the behavior, for their sakes, rather than repulsed by it.

The difficulty even after recognizing the pattern is connecting in an appropriate way with the child in danger, for the child generally understands too little to avoid bad choices to begin with, while those around the child are oblivious to the danger, or hiding from the knowledge of it.

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by roadsign on 2012/1/25 1:43:38

The statistics I raised refer to those who are at immediate risk. Not all homosexuals are in that category. I don’t know what percentage. Regardless, trying to tell anyone they have a sin problem when they are doing quite fine – is like trying to doctor someone who is not sick.

Jesus himself said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.” If we want to walk with Jesus on the dusty paths of life, we need to give up any overly narrowed focus on what disturbs US, and have the heart of Christ for others. Or we will merely be trying to remove speaks from people’s eyes, and increase the resistance to the gospel.

Meanwhile the harvest is white ...

I was told once: We are to be in a place in people's lives that when, down the road, they do find themselves in the place of need, they will know we can be trusted.

Otherwise, we will not be able to help them spiritually and emotionally when they most need it. We will not have earned their trust.

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Yes, very difficult for any of us to act directly when the issue is so sensitive and awkward to open a discussion about.

But for those that are old enough to read these pages, and are already in relationship with some child at risk, they can know that choosing to be waiting in love for an opportunity to give comfort and right teaching can be a very valuable thing. To be walking in love around those in danger of wrong choices, and modeling correct action and behavior, while remaining friendly and kind without fail to the child at risk is the best choice that a Believer can make.

Acting upon that belief in gentleness and with a caring and compassionate heart by simply reaching out to that child while demonstrating strong personal boundaries is a choice that will be blessed and aided by the Ruach haKodesh.

Q

But for those that are old enough to read these pages, and are already in relationship with some child at risk, they can know that choosing to be waiting in love for an opportunity to give comfort and right teaching can be a very valuable thing. To be walking in love around those in danger of wrong choices, and modeling correct action and behavior, while remaining friendly and kind without fail to the child at risk is the best choice that a Believer can make.

So true. Good, healthy relationship is one of the most powerful deterrents to bad ones.

Hello everyone again,

Reading this interesting topic and wondered what DEADn meant by "preaching to the angels".

Which angels? And why would you need to preach to the angels?

----"Reading this interesting topic and wondered what DEADn meant by "preaching to the angels""

This is when you just begin preaching and no one is in the room. This guy I referred to earlier said he used to do it all the time in his bedroom and he would tell me about it. When I stayed at a his house on a few ocassions we both began doing the same thing. Don't let the phrase cause you to think it is some spiritual or super spiritual thing. It is just a label he and I used to define what we were doing.

------"Which angels? And why would you need to preach to the angels?"

Are you really serious with this question? Does it matter? In essence it would be the heavenly host since the message of the gospel if somewhat of a mystery to the angels of heaven.
I don't know that I should respond to the last question because it is really rhetorical. Seemingly being too fundamentalistic becuase the action may be line up with scripture somewhere. Does that really matter?

I am curious as to what you asked that last question. Is there a motive there or are you just simply curious? Also, if you had a kid who said they preached to the angels would you think there is cause for concern there or would you think the kid may be used of God?

[quote DEADn]
Are you really serious with this question? Does it matter? In essence it would be the heavenly host since the message of the gospel if somewhat of a mystery to the angels of heaven. I don't know that I should respond to the last question because it is really rhetorical. Seemingly being too fundamentalistic because the action may be line up with scripture somewhere. Does that really matter?

I am curious as to what you asked that last question. Is there a motive there or are you just simply curious? Also, if you had a kid who said they preached to the angels would you think there is cause for concern there or would you think the kid may be used of God?

Methinks you are over-reacting to the poster's post, Deadn.

I never heard of preachings to angels, it is new to me too. Now that I read this post of yours, I may now understand what you were saying.

I too had friends who practiced their preaching by going into State Parks where they preached out loud to the TREES, in order to polish their delivery of the gospel message. As a matter of fact, after a while, he got so good at it, that when he gave the alter call, two trees came forward.

Art

Yeah, you have some humor with your post about the trees, don't you? lol

Carter may mean well, I don't know. I do know that if christians get serious with questions such as that then there is trouble in the camp.

Yeah Deadn,

But it is true that two of my friends had indeed, separately at different times, preached out load in State Parks to practice giving sermons.

May God richly bless you!