Contending for the Faith; False Doctrines murder the Lambs.

"I am not permitted to let my love be so merciful as to tolerate and endure false doctrine. When faith and doctrine are concerned and endangered, neither love nor patience are in order when these are concerned, neither toleration nor mercy are in order, but only anger, dispute, and destruction - to be sure, only with the Word of God as our weapon."....Martin Luther

And Jesus, and all of the Apostles preceded with the exact same sentiment....Acts 20-30.

Do we confront the lie?...or do we tolerate it and let it spread?

And exactly what false doctrine are we talking about here? Are we turning ourselves into the doctrinal police or something?

Blaine Scogin

It's good to have you posting again BrotherTom.

"And exactly what false doctrine are we talking about here? Are we turning ourselves into the doctrinal police or something?"

Blaine Scogin

Yes,in a way; It's basic Christian Shepherding followed by ALL the Apostles.

"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

This is what Luther was responding to in spirit. However this may apply to the individual.

I like how Miccah put it;
"If you do not confront it, you are guilty by association.

It is impossible to do this with everything that you come across, but when the Spirit prompts you to speak, you need to speak."

This is a frightening philosophy to hold!

Tell that to Jesus, Paul, Jeremiah, and numerous others from the past. They seemed more concerned that a lie would spread, than just letting a lie sort itself out. Is it possible that they should have not confronted the lies, and just kept their mouths shut and let God sort things out? If you saw a small child trying to put a fork in an electrical socket because someone told them that if they get it in in just the right way that they socket will spit out candy, would you try to tell them that it's not true? Or would you just let the electricity sort them out?

We have a really messed up version of love these days, that doesn't involve confronting and standing against lies. This version of love can't seem to be found in the Scriptures though.

Reading the edit you've done on your post, I want to also say that I agree we shouldn't seek to be confrontational, however many times the truth confronts. If Jesus had just kept His mouth shut about all the lies of the pharisees, and just said, "well I disagree, but God can sort you out" they probably would have never killed Him.

Just saying.

Great post Diane. I love the way the Apostle Paul dealt with early gnosticism. There was no lenghty dissertaion on the evils of gnosticism, there was an expounding of the truth. Every single Christian who holds fast to the truth of the word and the leading of the Spirit will have trouble enough. They wont have to go looking for trouble, it will come knocking on their door. Consider what Diane shared about believers baptism, those believers were trying to live out their lives in truth and simplicity and evil hunted them down. The best way to confront evil? Follow fast after Jesus and live in the light of what the Spirit has revealed to you through His word........bro Frank

And exactly what false doctrine are we talking about here? Are we turning ourselves into the doctrinal police or something?

This question hasn't been answered. So I ask the same, exactly what false doctrine?

What seems very righteous to you is a complete lie to the next brother. Christianity is the only religion I know of that does not agree on a specific doctrine. They can't agree!

They are all wrong.

Funny... that is what the enemy would have us think

Miccah, the Seventh Day Adventist for some strange reason believe that they are the remnant because they go to church on saturday instead of sunday. (that's as far as they go concerning the Laws).

The Catholics believe they started Christianity, hence they are the true church; as such, everyone should worship Mary the queen of heaven or they'll perish.

Some Christians believe in eternal Sonship and the pre existance doctrine, others believe it's a fallacy. The list goes on, the state of confusion is apparent.

The enemy has Christianity in a choke hold and she's squeezing the life out of it. Do you still think it's funny?Wake up.

Many religious persons have a dread of controversy and wish truth to be stated without any reference to those who hold the opposite errors. Controversy and a bad spirit are, in their estimation, synonymous terms. And strenuously to oppose what is wrong is considered as contrary to Christian meekness.

Those who hold this opinion seem to overlook what every page of the New Testament lays before us.

In all the history of our Lord Jesus Christ, we never find Him out of controversy. From the moment He entered on the discharge of His office in the synagogue of Nazareth till He expired on the cross, it was an uninterrupted scene of controversy...Robert Haldane....By Savannah

Thank-you Savannah...I am so thankful. This is the ministry of the Shepherd-Watchman...and brother or sister...."AM I MY BROTHERS KEEPER?"

We should be swift to stand against the dark flood lest our children, or brother or sister be swept away.

Miccah

Let me ask you, if "they" are all wrong, what makes you think that you are right?

You misquote my posted, I never said I was right. So for your sake I'll clarify;

Every christian denomination has a doctrine different from the other. Surely, they can't all be right can they?

John the Apostle confronts the usurper and bad doctrine, for the sake of the Church. 3John

No where in scripture does it say that God will sort out the wicked; expose them, and rebuke them. All of the Apostles, and every prophet of old had as his primary ministry this task...to root out and destroy, and to turn God's people back to Himself.

"Because that for his name's sake they went forth, taking nothing of the Gentiles.

We therefore ought to receive such, that we might be fellow helpers to the truth.

I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.

Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.

Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God."

.....so, do you think that John followed up on his word, and actually CONFRONTED the wolf Diotrophes? Of course he did.

Paul in one of many quotes;.[ Why was this written then?....and to the SHEPHERDS of Ephesus he spoke;

"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. "

Was this to "allow God to sort it out", and not to confront these false teachers and Shepherds? It is ludicrous to think so...it is what it is.....a command to contend, confront, and root out the wolf, liar and usurper who would take over God's heritage as their own.

As Everestosama [ Grant ] so aptly pointed out, it is absurd to assume that one actually could read the Bible, and not see this reality. God has always had shepherds, watchmen [ and watch-women ], prophets and holy men that confronted the agents of the Devil to protect God's people, while turning their hearts back to Him.

Moses, Samuel, Elijah, Jehu, all the prophets, David and each and every Apostle recorded in Scripture did so.

Because of the pulpit that separates, and the clergy class it seems, there has been a disconnect with God's flock and their Shepherds. I think that this is being reversed by God, with the emergence of the House Church and the realization that we are ONE body....equal with equal honor...and that by love, we are our brothers keeper.

The plurality of unpaid elders emerging in local bodies....[ the Bible way..] serve from down under that the Holy Spirit be not quenched and Shepherd the flock with more security as a united front. The false prophet and teacher has a much harder time deceiving this united front, rather than one man.

"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

We are in the midst of the Great Falling Away...and we need to beware, for ourselves and our friends and families...that they survive...but they, and we must CONTEND, for the battle is heated.

Again, well put Brothertom.

"In essentials, unity, in non-essentials, liberty, and in all things, charity."-Augustine-posted by Oracio.

Though there is merit here, this quote is so general that it almost sounds humanistic, and impractical, and in all areas it expels personalities, a huge factor in the heresy realm.

Yes, I agree that one group cannot legislate faith to others in order to unify, but at what point does the leadership of one group resist, and say NO! This is evil and we vehemently oppose you?

This is precisely what the Reformation Fathers decided, in a myriad of issues, that cost many of them their lives; by flame, sword and torture.

Of course, love SHOULD be our motive, but their are real deceivers with wicked motives that are void of life and love, and the Church had to resist, and stand....as it is today. By doing so, though with a heavy cost by contending for the faith; the gospel was established. They had overcame.

"Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection;

"Others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated .... (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground."

So, if you were given responsibility in the day of the Mormon founder Joseph Smith, How would you respond to him visiting your town to convert a few young ladies to the flock?

This is the issue today, and though maybe not as evidently wicked, the end often is the same; Perdition to the deceived.

"We should be swift to stand against the dark flood lest our children, or brother or sister be swept away. "BT

Of course, how you look at this statement will make all the difference in the world to our children.

If you are looking at it through fear-driven eyes, you will focus on the dark forces and then you WILL lose your children. You won’t win in your own strategies, and you’ll merely join the hordes of fear-driven casualties. And your children will try extra hard to NOT be like you.

If you are faith driven, then you will be focused on God – his sovereignty, his power, and his program for you. And you will be submitted to God And then you will be effective for him. And you will save your children.

Consider this thread title here: FALSE DOCTRINES AND MURDER OF THE LAMBS” in the context of Ezekiel 34 where we read God’s indictment to the shepherds of Israel:

“You do not take care of the flock. You have not strengthened the weak, or healed the sick, or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost. “… so they were scattered … and they became food for all the wild animals.”

"Indeed false movements are murdering our lambs today, but these little lambs would not have gone looking for food if they were well-fed in green pastures". .....Roadsign...

Amen; Thank-you Roadsign ...but have you ever considered FEAR as a good thing?, a necessary thing? THE FEAR OF THE LORD IS THE BEGINNING OF WISDOM!

The Fear of the Lord, and the Love of the Lord, walk Hand in Hand. In reality , you cannot have one without the other...It is the Nature of God's holiness and Power, reflected in the Light of Human Frailty.

I regret and pine that I could not instill the Fear of the Lord inside my children...but I appreciate your insights and discernment....with the sorrow of regret.....I go on.

The Single Pastor.

There is only one place in the entire New Testament where the leadership of a Church is consigned to ONE MAN, and that is 3John; and this one is identified as a Heretic, a divider...[ who loves the preeminence. ]

Each and every other mention of Pastor is in the plural; an unprofessional, unpaid, wotking class of shepherds. There was never one man given authority over a church; never.

Meditate on this a bit considering the system we live in and consider how far we have fallen. Add in the unscriptural tithe, that keeps the gears slicked to operate this system, and the bulding that alienates the body to accept a drone/pew class as the norm....to elevate a Priest/Minister class as the norm, and behold! the destruction of all Spirit infused body life.

The Church is designed so that we need the least of the sisters and brothers, that we and they may be fed, edified, and each member honored equally. Each one of us has gifting, testimony and faith...and are meant to give that in body life and community life...and until we do, the Spirit will be quenched.

When faith and doctrine are concerned and endangered, neither love nor patience are in order when these are concerned, neither toleration nor mercy are in order, but only anger, dispute, and destruction - to be sure, only with the Word of God as our weapon."....Martin Luther

I appreciate you posting this quote from Luther. It may help explain what happened to Luther. Through all the resistance he encountered, he himself became bitter and hostile. You can see that in some of his writings. When the Jews did not listen to him he permitted them to be persecuted and murdered. He refused to compromise with Zwingli regarding the Eucharist, and insisted on consubstantiation as the only right way (that is, the physical presence of Christ in the Eucharist). That divided the entire reformation movement. Zwingli himself, in his zeal to expunge a dangerous heresy had some believers drowned. What was the dangerous heresy: believer’s baptism. And the reformation went downhill from there – all in the name of confronting false doctrine.

Do we confront the lie?...or do we tolerate it and let it spread?

This is a frightening philosophy to hold! The mission to “confront” has no breaks when it is driven by fear and a sense of righteousness – and when mercy and love are no longer restraints. And the wheat gets damaged even as the tares are being plucked out.

God is quite able to manage evil. That is his job. We have our own job.

Having said that, I admit, even last Sunday I shared a theological concern with a minister whose trust I had gained through the last ten years. Had I been "confrontational" I would have lost more ground then I may have gained.

Diane

-----------------------------------------------------

Diane 'roadsign' wrote the above.
because only God the Holy Spirit could have revealed such to you Diane, and it carries with it, the Sweet Truth of Christ.

i dont think a lot of believers, Gentile, can really apprehend the damage Luther did, to us Jews, and the ministry of outreach TO Jews. (definitely the roman institution played a hideous earlier role, Luther just gave it that PUSH)..."On Jews and Their Lies"?...which btw was used a perverted demonic "covering" by hitler and his minions.

what in God's Name has happened to this forum?

there is just so much confusion, and anger, and diviseness. i must be either stupid, or desperate, or loyal, but i keep coming back, looking for fruit, for sweet fellowship, and i have been blessed with such in the past.

the many hours, Brother Frank appolus and i have spent on the phone, praying talking, getting to know one another, Mike Compton, a brother dear to my heart, the same thing.

and it just seems like everything is so fear based and strident, talking about 'wolves' and the 'enemy', as if they are the Big Deal...its almost like testifying and focusing on the dark power of the devil, whilst ignoring the King of Kings, Jesus, and His Glory and Beauty, and Majesty.

Instead, foolishly, we muck about with this doctrine and that doctrine, lambast and argue over the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, or the all too familar "KJV only" cyber scrum, and lest we forget, the ever present "DIVORCE/REMARRIAGE" mud pit to wallow in.

what happened to REVIVAL?

can we answer that?

or we shedding tears over this, are we tarrying on our knees late into the night, asking God to come down in Power, Love and Mercy?

what happened to Revival?...personal....community, or district?

lets consider our ways, please.....bring dry wood, it burns better.

Brother Neil writes........

"its almost like testifying and focusing on the dark power of the devil, whilst ignoring the King of Kings, Jesus, and His Glory and Beauty, and Majesty."

Amen brother, its a terrible mistake to give our enemny too much air time. Its the Truth that sets men free. Its the Light of Christ that dispels the darkness. Stand in the light, walk in the Truth, and all the troubles of the world will come to you, you will never have to go looking for it. There is a spiritual battle and the darkness detests the light. The enemy could care less for shades of grey. If we could study all the little groups for the last 2000 years who have stood outside of religion, it was they who were hunted down and killed as they tried to live peacably amongst men. Thier life and the Truth attracted others too them, much like the early church who were observed to be loving one another and living exemplary lives. This would bring down the wrath of the spirit behind religion.

Shall we curse the darkness? Is their such a ministry that curses the darkness? To simply walk in the light of Christ and to speak the truth in love will bring upon us the persecution that is written off....... bro Frank

Coming to terms with this great contender of the faith is challenging. He had outstanding qualities, like his own spiritual conversion and his brilliant theological writings. Yet he had a dark side. I believe he was a tragic victim of his own world, not just his own doing. Luther exposes the best and the worst of human nature, personally and societally. He himself has been both deified and demonized, but neither is honest or helpful. After doing a project on Luther, I have come to believe that, beneath all the surface stuff, the stuff that gets the attention, we see a man who shares the same human nature as we do. We too have dreams and expectations. And we too can get bitter when our ideals fail to materialize. If Luther, who was one of the most truly repentant sinner and recipient of God’s grace could become so bitter and cruel to fellow humanity – who are we to assume we can escape that possibility – given enough stress.

It doesn't even take much stress, there is a Hitler nature resident in even the very best of redeemed men, only the grace of God restrains it; yet it is allowed to show enough in all, so that we will always remember our place in need of a Saviour.

OJ

"And Jesus, and all of the Apostles preceded with the exact same sentiment....Acts 20-30.

Do we confront the lie?...or do we tolerate it and let it spread?"

The idea that we curse the darkness, while throwing out the Shepherding aspects of Holy guidance and Protection is felonious. The Contending in itself, is always for the sake of the body, as bad doctrines arise, and evil usurpers, like the Pharisees, mark themselves as the true leaders.

Overseeing shepherds follow the body, observing where food and comfort, and guidance is needed, and also protection, and then serve. It is not their duty to journey throughout the world, rebuking every act and stronghold of Satan...and to what good? It is always for the sake of the body, the church, and is most necessary.

The war always follows the gospel, and the religious, and the controllers will always hate, and resist the Gospel. It is here that we contend.

TAKE HEED!-----"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears!"

AND....simply as a brother or a sister do we warn, and expose....

Then the LORD said to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?” And he said, “I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?”

He said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to Me from the ground."

If we do not warn, exhort and expose....in some instances, we will not be "our brothers keeper". This means we really do not care for him or her, and if they die, it's all right with me.

Consider a mother and the scorpion. Does she allow her toddler to play with the bug in the sand-box? If I love my brother or sister, and see them stumbling or falling into a ditch, will I pull them out?

Of course, and this is the Christian command to all of us....and in the end, Deceivers murder, false doctrines can kill, and all of those who do not love the truth will be judged.

Brothertom [ reposted because of spam attack...]

"And Jesus, and all of the Apostles preceded with the exact same sentiment....Acts 20-30.

Do we confront the lie?...or do we tolerate it and let it spread?"

The idea that we curse the darkness, while throwing out the Shepherding aspects of Holy guidance and Protection is felonious. The Contending in itself, is always for the sake of the body, as bad doctrines arise, and evil usurpers, like the Pharisees, mark themselves as the true leaders.

Overseeing shepherds follow the body, observing where food and comfort, and guidance is needed, and also protection, and then serve. It is not their duty to journey throughout the world, rebuking every act and stronghold of Satan...and to what good? It is always for the sake of the body, the church, and is most necessary.

The war always follows the gospel, and the religious, and the controllers will always hate, and resist the Gospel. It is here that we contend.

TAKE HEED!-----"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears!"

AND....simply as a brother or a sister do we warn, and expose....

Then the LORD said to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?” And he said, “I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?”

He said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to Me from the ground."

If we do not warn, exhort and expose....in some instances, we will not be "our brothers keeper". This means we really do not care for him or her, and if they die, it's all right with me.

Consider a mother and the scorpion. Does she allow her toddler to play with the bug in the sand-box? If I love my brother or sister, and see them stumbling or falling into a ditch, will I pull them out?

Of course, and this is the Christian command to all of us....and in the end, Deceivers murder, false doctrines can kill, and all of those who do not love the truth will be judged.

"This is a frightening philosophy to hold! The mission to “confront” has no breaks when it is driven by fear and a sense of righteousness – and when mercy and love are no longer restraints. And the wheat gets damaged even as the tares are being plucked out.

God is quite able to manage evil. That is his job. We have our own job."...Diane

It is not a philosophy. It is the word of God and a command....and it is our job to be our brothers keeper.

"Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.

WHY?.... "For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ!".....AND MANY, MANY OTHER SCRIPTURES OF TESTIMONY AND HISTORY..[ Jesus' words and all of the Apostles and prophets. ]

Of course you are going to have evil fanatics and the devil himself twist his expulsion from holy doctrine as a witch hunt! The Roman Catholics, and their murderous popery, slaughtered tens of thousands of believers for the exact same cause; That THEY, the believing Saints, dare to stand by Faith, and reject their diabolical Doctrines.

Rail on Luther as you may, but those 95 thesis nailed, were as the nails in Satan's religious coffin, and he knew it. Which is worse? Remaining in the lie, and worshipping darkness?...or Contending for the true faith, and living in Christ? One is death, and one is life...for multitudes I might add. Luther's courageous holy stand led the way to freedom, [ at a cost ] for millions.

The entire reformation was founded on this principle, and not only did it have to be contended for, exposed, and resisted, it was done so by the blood of many resolute believers who chose Jesus, no matter the cost of the war.

I cannot understand how some can read the Bible, and not see this as fundamental. Jesus surely did.

Maybe if you were more specific of exactly what doctrines you have in mind that would murder HIS Lambs - we here on this site could better focus with you.

Those doctrines that you feel that would either prevent salvation or shipwreck someone's faith?

Listing the doctrines that concern you for other's salvation would greatly clarify this thread because so far it's staying a bit nebulous.

Thanks!

"Rail on Luther as you may, but those 95 thesis nailed, were as the nails in Satan's religious coffin, and he knew it. Which is worse? Remaining in the lie, and worshipping darkness?...or Contending for the true faith, and living in Christ?"

"Brothertom, I admit, I feel a bit fuzzy regarding your drift, or how you are reading my posts.

"Do you think some posts here suggest “remaining in the lie or worshipping darkness”? "..Roadsign

My reference was to Luther's stand, and a general root of why we DO resist darkness, expose and contend for the faith. If Luther had NOT stood as he did, how many millions would have perished serving the
Catholic Devil? Because he did, among many others, [ but he was a catylist ]...multiple millions saw they could walk with God by Faith.

This is what I mean when dividing "worshipping Darkness", and "LIVING in Christ".

There seems to be a tendency for some here to take everything personal...as they were the security guard of the forum...and confront much that they disagree with as wrong because they see it another way. This stirs up a spirit of dissension; and not discussion.

Let us "keep our eyes on the ball..not the player"...and that is what I try to do, at least not get into religious mud-slinging to prove I'm right.

[ hope I succeed ]..grace...Tom

"Shall we curse the darkness? Is their such a ministry that curses the darkness? To simply walk in the light of Christ and to speak the truth in love will bring upon us the persecution that is written off? bro Frank; Appolus.

Yes, we should curse the darkness, and those who carry false and deceptive lies as the truth. Below, Paul expresses his sentiments.

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed!"

"As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed!"

For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ."..Paul the Apostle in Galatians

This is Shepherding 101. A true Shepherd must PROTECT the Sheep while feeding them, otherwise you fail God, and your ministry. there is such a thing as a wolf, and deceivers, whose motivation is to devour the flock of God.

Also: 28Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

29For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

30Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

31Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

A shepherd of God, [ Elder or Pastor] Must Watch. Why do we watch?

"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

"Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them."

This is a holy duty expressing God's love to the sheepfold.

Well I guess your talking to me Tom. Okay, let me explain where I am coming from. I am all for standing for the truth, no matter where that takes or if I have no reputation or lose friends and so on, speaking the truth in love is very important to me and having been born and raised in the Catholic church, you and I share the same thoughts in regard to their doctrine. Again, if this was 30 years ago and there was an SI, I am positive we would be warning about Jim Jones and I definately feel there is a place for that. Where I think the line is crossed is when we sanctify our own thoughts, where our opinions is elevated. An example would be our difference of opinions on Jean Guyon. Many on here, including myself, have been blessed by much of what she wrote, yet you consider her to not only not saved, but demonic. Now, that's your opinion Tom and your definately have a right to it, but anyone who disagrees with your opinion is then classified by you in your own personal category. That is where I think you go to far. Many love and appreciate Tozer, yet he does not pass your test of orthodoxy either Tom, and the list goes on. Sometimes we confuse our opinions and agenda's as being gospel, and I have certainly made that mistake. Yet, when it leads to the demonizing of people who may well be Christians, I believe that we are on dangerous ground.

There has to be balance in our walk. If all we ever do is curse the darkness, and that is the totality of our walk, then I think there is a problem. I am not saying that is you brother, I am just saying that the majority of what we say, and think about should be glorifying and lifting up the name of Jesus. Way too often we give the devil too much air time.........brother Frank

Yes, we should curse the darkness, and those who carry false and deceptive lies as the truth. Below, Paul expresses his sentiments.

I am with you on this one BT. The John Lennon gospel of "all you need is love" just doesn't cut it.

OJ

I know this is difficult, but we must take our eyes off of the individual, and focus it on the topic.

In Appolus' case, he implied "Is there really a ministry of cursing?" I quoted Paul who said; "LET HIM BE ACCURSED, WHO BRINGS ANOTHER GOSPEL!" Yes, there is a ministry of confronting, and cursing the lying wolf. The clear quote from Paul was ignored, as was my response, in favor of past conflicts in which opinions differed.

Then, it seems, my character comes into question in general, stating that I categorize people?? No, I just try to address the issue, and personalities are not the issue, as they are not here. Do we confront evil, to protect the church as deceivers come into our midst? I say yes, and have attempted to prove this through Apostolic scripture, and Jesus' word.

It's OK if everyone does not agree with me. Is it OK if I don't agree with you? I hope so.

Roadsign. Enough. I am not going to be drawn into a personal scuffle, it is unprofitable, and let us try to discuss issues, without dissension.I am not distressed about anyone here....just giving my opinion, and discernment, right or wrong, about issues. You really never came into my thoughts...just the issue.

I stand by my assessment of Guyon, that she is demonic, but what does that have to do with this?; exposing and confronting the wolf....except possibly to gain sentiment as right because I do. I love Tozer, and quote him often yet you say that I do not.

Was this because I studied his mystic appreciation? I guess. Am I now the heretic? and must be defamed, because I test all things, and reject the Catholic mystics? The Bereans did also, testing all things, and all men.

Luther is not the issue either, but his brave stand against the Roman Catholic Dragon is..and the ensuing liberation of millions of souls, regardless of what you may think of his life. He boldly confronted the lie, at great personal risk. His catechism is yet read today, as is His profound translation of the New Testament.

You must also consider that your assessment is but an opinion, not the gospel truth, as is mine. Eat the meat, and spit out the bones, and try not to get emotional and reject, if someone may cross you. It's OK if you, or I, have another take...and letus try and set the scripture as our compass, not accusation.

Hi brothertom,

What I was trying to say is that there are some that all they do is " heresy hunt." A couple of years ago on here, there was a thread that really tore brother Yun down, and all because of claims of the supernatural.

Many on here, inculding myself on many occasions, have confronted what we believe to be error and things that would lead God's people astray, Mr Todd Bentley comes to mind.Catholicism for me is another. Yet what we see down through the centuries is people contending for the truth by living it and dying for it. They are the ones who are being hunted down. Doctrinal zealots go looking for people who do not agree with them, and when they find them, they condemn them as heretics, or demonic, then they kill them. This is the undisputed truth of the last 1900 years. There is a spirit to it. This is my objection to those who have a ministry of cursing what they believe to be darkness.

Many of you may not know of Mary Dyer. It may be worth some time doing a little study of what happened to her as an example of doctrinal purists who cannot accept any other opinion but their own. And the key point to this is the violence that it has led to down through the centuries. Mary Dyer believed that God spoke directly to people and not only through the clergy. Bible studies were organized. Dyer had become a Quaker. This did not sit well with the puritans. Long story short, banishment, torture and eventually hung.

What would have happened to Guyon or Tozer if they were unfortunate enough to be born in 1600s American colonies? Someone would have shouted " demon," and then there would be a hanging.

Brothertom, I do not know many on this site who would not want everything tried by Scriptures, but you must acknowledege that good men of differing persausions and better minds that us, studied the Scriptures diligently and came to different conclusions on many different subjects. When do we make the leap to pronounce " heretic," or " demoniac?" If you and I can agree that we are brothers in Christ, one believing that Guyon and others of that ilk were Christians, and the other believing that they were demonic, and agree to disagree, then I think we have resolution and no need to go back and rehash old threads like the Guyon one or the "Tozer reconsidered,' one that you posted........brother Frank

Brothertom, I do not know many on this site who would not want everything tried by Scriptures, but you must acknowledge that good men of differing persuasions and better minds that us, studied the Scriptures diligently and came to different conclusions on many different subjects. When do we make the leap to pronounce " heretic," or " demoniac?" If you and I can agree that we are brothers in Christ, one believing that Guyon and others of that ilk were Christians, and the other believing that they were demonic, and agree to disagree, then I think we have resolution and no need to go back and rehash old threads like the Guyon one or the "Tozer reconsidered,' one that you posted........brother Frank

Thank-you for that Frank: I respect and appreciate your stand for Christ. Tom

"Thank-you for that Frank: I respect and appreciate your stand for Christ. Tom"

As do I you brother. We agree on so much and I respect your unwavering stand on Catholicism which is going to be much needed in the not so distnat future. Perhaps we will have adjoining cells? That would be a good thing brother. God bless you........... brother Frank

" Let us try to discuss [ the ] issue."

Brothertom, I'm not sure if in my last post I really touched on the issue you are raising. But, I admit that I did touch on the issue as it is for me.

"I have had a tendency to look on the darker side and get quite cynical and gloomy about where the church is today, and I myself need a prod to keep centered on Christ and his good news gospel - and all that entails. That's a large order in itself."...Roadsign.

Maybe we can help each other see Christ in the gloomy mess that mostly appears. I'm serious...when assessing the devastation we see, and looking for order and life...well...it can be a lonely road out there, and seem nearly hopeless.

Thank you for your humility and honesty....we all need more of what you display....Tom

Thank you for your gracious reply, Roadsign.

"It is our Christian responsibility towards ourselves as a Body, to keep on encouraging each other in the glorious hope – so that no bitter root may grow up.

“Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.” Heb. 10:23-25

"Is that not a contending for the faith?"....Roadsign

Absolutely this is contending for the faith, and is at the core of our duties, to establish the Lordship of Christ in His Body. This, metaphorically, is The Pasture land of God.

"The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.

He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake."

But the sad fact of the nature of the Universe, is there is a real Devil whose being is warped to destroy these lambs, and to prohibit them from ever entering in. There is such a thing as the shadow of death within men, motivated by Satan.

"Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever."

When the shadow spirits come, we must resist. All of us have witnessed friends fall away; it is real. I'm simply saying is that when the lie or the liar presents himself, he should be exposed and confronted. God is not going to do this for you. We must resist evil, and the Shepherd must do so for the sake of the flock. Consider Adam, and Eve...Cain and Abel.

The Spirit and the Word agree; and this is why we must devour the Bible as the Word of God, and believe it as Truth...and act upon it in the Pasture Land, and the Valley of Death equally.

I am not defending Luther, or Calvin, who some say did the same. I am simply stating the need to contend for the true faith; confront ,expose, and expel when necessary.

Jesus, Paul, Peter and all of the apostles did the same. We certainly cannot hold the Reformation as our standard, though much liberty came from it, as you implied, so did much bondage and error when men began to establish their doctrines as God's.

I never implied that such abominations as murdering your detractors was the same as confronting the heretic. Obviously this is horrid sin, and must be rejected.

Jesus confronted them as such:

"But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you."

"But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. "

"Woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye love the uppermost seats in the synagogues, and greetings in the markets..."

...multiple times and multiple ways....but he never touched them.

"I believe we should pray that the one deceived be restored wholly; but, tolerating any lie is damnable, therefore not in the least should a lie be tolerated.
All liars will take their own place in the lake of fire."
Yeshuasboy

Yes. And the key here is repentance. There must be repentance before mercy comes. Of course we hope a deceiver would be restored, but they must realize their error, confess it, and forske it before restoration is given.

Until then, they are counted as the wolf.

"If you do not confront it, you are guilty by association."

"It is impossible to do this with everything that you come accross, but when the Spirit prompts you to speak, you need to speak."

Amen Miccah, otherwise, would not their blood be on your hands?

Thanks Ginnyrose; You have always been so solid here, and right on. I know your going on, as I hope I am, to know the Lord.

"Have you ever seen or know of a false prophet make a real turn-around in matters of belief, faith and come to the LORD? I know there are those who held to doctrines that were off-center and repented but I am talking about people who really left the simple teaching of the WORD and came back to Faith." Question by Ginnyrose.

"But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. "..Paul to Titus...3

" Reject a factious man..[ heretic..] after a first and second warning, knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned."

This can only be done within the structure of a local functioning New Testament Church. The Pastors unite in one mind, and with a spirit of restoration, and attempt to persuade the deceived back into the fold. He appears to repent and believe the truth.

He does ok for a while, and then his deception resurfaces, say, in some doctrinal utterance where he denies the Lordship of Jesus alone.

The Shepherds, plural, confront him again, with the same result...he appears to repent. After a while, the same scenario...except that now, there is no repentance in the Church....he is condemned, marked and rejected, as it is evident that a root of evil unbelief owns him. Anathema.

This is the Apostolic pattern, mixed with mercies as defined. It seems very harsh to some, but there is a reason. Jesus holds the body above the offender. The offender MUST repent to the pure body, who HE HIMSELF OWNS, not the other way around...or it would be LEAVEN to Her...poison.

The problem today is that we have so very few actual functioning church bodies today...and the Church is ripe with MOVEMENTS and Para-Church organizations that in the end, have no real compass other than their own vision. Add to this the Mega-Church and the one-man show..Pulpit Priest-class...and we see further fragmentation in the functioning, loving and holy church bodies.

So, I can only mostly discern after the fact today, as we all must, not really knowing most of the prominent false prophets and teachers...except by what they have written, and what they say. This is something very, very important...because Jesus Himself said that what we say will either condemn us, or redeem us.

The Internet, with it's vast media available, let's us see and hear men, as they say it! Here is General Booth over a hundred years ago preaching.
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=16

The question in my mind about the deceived is did they have the lie in them before they were saved? What about false conversions? These are very hard to see, and some take a lot of time too. Was the seed of God in them Choked out, or dried up?...and they fell away? but went on in christian tradition?

I have seen false conversions, where people received another spirit, a religious personality. Consider the vast numbers of these poor souls bound in the satanic monastic systems of the Roman Church. Most of these, I believe, received another spirit..that drove them to to believe that sacrificial works please God, along with the doctrines of the devils..[ another feminine Mediator for instance. ]

Whatever the root cause, the answer to "Have I ever seen one repent, back to true faith?" is No. It seems that over the years their belief system is reinforced, rather than repented of.

I think this has to do with the Cross as central to their lives...We must deny our satanic natures, that we all have, and submit ourselves to be slain by Him, that He may sit upon the Throne of our being. Those that I have known, see themselves as right, and will hear no other.

The Three that I have known are yet active today...and two of them , I believe, have been turned over to Satan.....and may not know it. I do not believe they can repent, and have been given strong delusion as their bread, yet they are still being used by God, as magnets for the cursed of the Lord.

The other has more grace, and I have hope for him....but he has not, nor seems he will, repent. Yes, I have warned directly with the Word of the Lord in revelation to him...and no response.

Baalim seems he could not repent, and was slain with the infidels at Jericho. It is a very scary gift to live in...and brings double judgment , especially when you begin to lead the lambs to the devil for lunch.

Old_Joe responds to me;
"Yes, we should curse the darkness, and those who carry false and deceptive lies as the truth. Below, Paul expresses his sentiments."...BT.............

"I am with you on this one BT. The John Lennon gospel of "all you need is love" just doesn't cut it." OJ..

I suppose the rub comes when "the witch hunt " arises. There are several of them out there...John Ankerburg, Hank Hanigraf, and the granddaddy of them all; Walter Martin.[ and a hundred more on the internet..]..THE KINGDOM OF THE CULTS....[ I read it and others...] I too, have been accused of such.

So, where does apologetics fade away, and discernment begin, and what is the value of it all? Is it sensationalism? A kind of a reverse accusation that authenticates one's righteousness by exposing the error of another?

On a discussion forum like this, it becomes a topic, therefore inviting opinions, and truth be told, these doctrines rarely confront our lives where we live, outside of the cyber-information world....but..Are they valuable?

Yes..I say. I think of the Holy Spirit's admonishment..."WITH ALL YOUR GETTING, GET UNDERSTANDING!"
As we look into the light, we see light, and the darkness becomes more and more obvious...This is wrong.

For whatever it is worth, my life has been centered around reading and meditating in the Bible, as the Word of God. I can see almost instantly that this is wrong, and this is peace.

Today, so many rely on information as their rudder to discern, and information alone will fail you. It is the Spirit and the Word that agree..and this is wisdom.

John Lennon was dreadfully wrong in his assessment about life..."ALL YOU NEED IS LOVE"...

God is love, yes, but God is also Holy, and he is just. He never said that without love you would never see God, but Jesus did say that without holiness, you would never see Him.

This is why discernment is necessary, and the revealing of what is not holy. Others are involved than you.

He never said that without love you would never see God

You won't have holiness nor true-truth unless you love the LORD your GOD with all of your heart, mind, soul and strength and love others as well - even your enemies.

Last night, I had quite an experience with The LORD and you can either take my word on it or just read the verses in this link below - or better yet, do both.

He repeatedly spoke to my heart and said, the first thing that you will have to answer to Me is "Did you love as I loved?"

My heart began to pound within me and I knew that it was His mandate and warning - again and again.
I knew that I need more work in this area, although the LORD had given these verses below more than 7 yrs ago.
I know that was indeed The LORD that spoke that to my heart, repeatedly within a few seconds of time last night, because that awesome fear/reverence yet assurance came with it. Assurance that if I continue to get to where His heart is, that I won't fear the day of judgment when that's the first question His Eyes alone will ask me.

Truth or Holiness without His Love is nothing. It's synthetic truth & holiness [that won't stand the tests of time nor persecutions] and it's not from The GOD that 'is' Love and has done ALL things out of His Love, from before the foundations of the earth - His reason behind All that He does - The most unimaginable Purest of Eternal Love Personified and He is perfectly Holy because He is Perfect Love and His Love loves His Own Truth Only. He is the Only One that can Perfectly Love Himself.

All sin and error comes from love of self. Only that purest Love that He is willing to pour into us, if we are willing, will be able to discern perfect Truth and perfect GODlike Holiness.

Please read these verses and see if love is not absolutely essential for salvation ...

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=43158&forum=36&11

"...as thyself" - yes, it's quoted from the O.T. enough times in the New, but as with all the laws of GOD, Jesus ramped them all up quite a bit, at the Sermon on the Mount, etc. through the rest of the New Testament testimonies.

Reading the rest of the verses on love and reviewing the lives of Jesus and His Saints - this love is now better seen as "Love others more than you love yourself - even your enemies." - in context of the whole of the New Testament's teachings and examples.

Bless you!

"Reading the rest of the verses on love and reviewing the lives of Jesus and His Saints - this love is now better seen as "Love others more than you love yourself - even your enemies." - in context of the whole of the New Testament's teachings and examples."

I tend to agree with this interpretation....as self-idolatry has been amply exposed in these two books alone;

"YOUR BEST LIFE NOW!"...OLSTEEN

"THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIFE"....WARREN.

A philosophy, that God exists solely to bless you, and enhance your life, has created a narcissistic faith that is all about loving yourself. Surely Jesus never meant this kind of loving your self. In a strong sense, it is much like the original sin of Lucifer, to overcome God Himself.

We love as we are known by God, and self-less Agape is conformed in us, as God Himself loves through us. This love is formed by DENYING our self, not loving our own being; that's Narcissism.

As we are crucified to ourselves, and live unto Him, we manifest Love through us, by us, yet not of us.

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Amen, BT. I know experientially the quickest and surest, yet the hardest way to death to self, is to love with His love. They say that agape is 'a choice'.
Loving those that hate you. Being a servant filled with love to those who 'make' you serve them. Oh boy! Even Elisabeth Elliot and Corrie Ten Boom spoke about those things. It's something that we need to hook into now, before our faith means our lives and quit majoring on the minors, because time is truly short.

I believe that we've entered a time where we won't change anyone's mind on things. But we need to get as close to Him as humanly possible, as Bro Frank wrote last night about getting into "His Presence". We ourselves need strengthening for those things that are about to come upon the earth.
I've come to a mind to let each man work out his 'own' salvation with fear and trembling - as I shore up my own heart with Him, before it's too late for any of us.

GOD Bless you!

Lucifer loved himself...and he loved others to worship him too; as today.

"Reading the rest of the verses on love and reviewing the lives of Jesus and His Saints - this love is now better seen as "Love others more than you love yourself - even your enemies." - in context of the whole of the New Testament's teachings and examples."

I tend to agree with this interpretation....as self-idolatry has been amply exposed in these two books alone;

"YOUR BEST LIFE NOW!"...OLSTEEN

"THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIFE"....WARREN.

A philosophy, that God exists solely to bless you, and enhance your life, has created a narcissistic faith that is all about loving yourself. Surely Jesus never meant this kind of loving your self. In a strong sense, it is much like the original sin of Lucifer, to overcome God Himself.

We love as we are known by God, and self-less Agape is conformed in us, as God Himself loves through us. This love is formed by DENYING our self, not loving our own being; that's Narcissism.

As we are crucified to ourselves, and live unto Him, we manifest Love through us, by us, yet not of us.

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Thanks ArtB., Of course there is a necessary attribute of self love, or we would never be able to live with ourselves, or feel anything good about ourselves. Consider things like integrity, or an infants glowing smile as he peers into your eyes. Everyone here reading this was once there.

I am not talking about that in itself; it is an attribute given to each child born on Earth. I am talking about a spiritual condition when this ascends to dominate one's motives, and then, however subtly it occurs, our magnificent obsession is no longer God, but our well being and promotion. I quote my RE: below.

"A philosophy, that God exists solely to bless you, and enhance your life, has created a narcissistic faith that is all about loving yourself. Surely Jesus never meant this kind of loving your self. In a strong sense, it is much like the original sin of Lucifer, to overcome God Himself.".................

This has become a plague in our modern fellowships, and has led many into the jaws of the "Great Falling Away" itself. Why? Because when you cease to serve Jesus as Lord, but insert another god you worship, be it yourself on the throne, or demons, you lose the Graces of life and faith, that will only come from Him. "In Him is light, and He is the light of all men."

This is also the fundamental issue in the statement "Jesus is Lord"......not ourselves.

"We ought to be sincerely seeking the good for many others. And when we all do that, it results in delightful and a unique reality; we all end up having many people seeking what is good for us too. If we were all loving servants to each other, then we will have many servants seeking our best interest too."

"We all wish to be loved and noticed. Give we love generously and we will generously receive love. Love from the heart will bear its' fruit."....ArtB

Yes! Absolutely true, Art! This is our future as a body, as a church.

"But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

"From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love."

We are on the way...as this new-life body is emerging from the ashes of dead religion.

"Tell that to Jesus, Paul, Jeremiah, and numerous others from the past. They seemed more concerned that a lie would spread, than just letting a lie sort itself out. Is it possible that they should have not confronted the lies, and just kept their mouths shut and let God sort things out?

If you saw a small child trying to put a fork in an electrical socket because someone told them that if they get it in in just the right way that they socket will spit out candy, would you try to tell them that it's not true? Or would you just let the electricity sort them out?

We have a really messed up version of love these days, that doesn't involve confronting and standing against lies. This version of love can't seem to be found in the Scriptures though.

Reading the edit you've done on your post, I want to also say that I agree we shouldn't seek to be confrontational, however many times the truth confronts. If Jesus had just kept His mouth shut about all the lies of the pharisees, and just said, "well I disagree, but God can sort you out" they probably would have never killed Him."
EverestoSama

One of the motives of Satan is to defile mankind, to deceive mankind, and stain him with his own evil. He uses man to do this, actual agents of himself who promote the lie to do so. This began in the garden, as Eve, end Adam "ate of the fruit" of the knowledge of good and evil.

The prominent sign of the end times IS deception, not revelation towards God. This is accomplished by MIXTURE; even as Jesus' temptation by Satan was...A word mixed with God's, but not fully. or slightly twisted...like..."Allah and Jehovah are the same God of Gods."

If we are not grounded in the Spirit that bears perfect witness to the Bible, The written Word; then we are susceptible to deception, and the thing about this that makes it so important is, that your Eternal Home is decided about how you respond to the deceiver. Jesus HIMSELF RESPONDED TO SATAN; IT IS WRITTEN!

MATTHEW 24.....ABOUT TODAY.
"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Behold, I have told you before."...Jesus of Nazareth.

Jesus wept over Jerusalem because He saw their end coming; Wrath because they recived not the love of the Truth...Himself. Titus annihilated the city, with tens and thousands of crucified innocents lining the highways.

Paul warns:
"For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears."

Why did they warn? Because they loved, and true love is wanting someone to be with Jesus forever, not in the awful fire with Satan and his. Jesus wept as He warned. Paul wept as he warned...because people must know when they are being decieved.

This was as important to Jesus as was His wonderful teachins about Truth and life and the Cross....otherwise....His sacrifice would be to no avail, if ignored and the truth of it twisted.

religion counts too.

"We have a really messed up version of love these days, that doesn't involve confronting and standing against lies. This version of love can't seem to be found in the Scriptures though....EverestoSama..

It seems, Grant, that Paul the Apostle agrees with you.

"Wherefore I witness to you this day, that I am clean of the blood of all men. "..[ through love, he warned..]

For I fled not away [For I flew not away], that I told not to you all the counsel of God!"

Take ye attention to you [Take attention to you], and to all the flock, in which the Holy Ghost hath set you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he [hath] purchased with his blood.

I know, that after my departing, ravening wolves [snatching wolves] shall enter into you, not sparing the flock;

and men speaking depraved things shall rise of yourselves [and of yourselves men speaking wayward things shall rise], that they lead away disciples after them.

For which thing wake ye, holding in mind that by three years night and day I ceased not with tears admonishing each of you."...[ He wept out of passionate love that none would perish..]...Wycliffe Bible

We hate our brother if we see him perishing in the lie, and do nothing to rescue him.

"AM I MY BROTHER'S KEEPER?".....Cain