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The doctrine of having a spiritual covering: by Eddie L. Hyatt

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sermonindex

Warning: This is a very long article about submission and authority, which seems to be central now and then to SI, but may not interest most. I though it was so well done, and so right on, it was worthy of posting....and crosses over into reformed theology, head-coverings, and the Pastoral roles also.

In light of recent discussions about the limits of control a Pastor may have, or for that matter a husband may have, I found it enlightening and welded into holy scripture and doctrine. I think it is the most lengthy article I have ever posted...but I'm sure a few here will enjoy it's thoroughness.....Tom


Who's Your covering?

Eddie L. Hyatt
Breaking Free of Doctrines that Bind & Oppress.

I recently heard that a well-known female Christian leader, who assumed leadership of the church she and her husband founded after he succumbed to cancer, had announced that she was now under the “covering” of a certain well-known male pastor in another city. I was disappointed to hear that she felt the need to have a male “covering,” but it confirmed to me how deeply ingrained the “covering” doctrine is among Pentecostals and Charismatics. This doctrine, of course, purports that God works through delegated authority and everyone must, therefore, be submitted to a human authority, which functions as their covering” or protection. It has been especially applied to women as needing to be under the authority or “covering” of a man.

The problem with this teaching is that it places a human mediator between the believer and God and there is only One Mediator between God and humanity—the Lord Jesus Christ (I Timothy 2:5). This teaching also undermines the Biblical truth of the priesthood of all believers by putting an individual or an organization between the believer and Christ. It also diminishes the redemptive work of Christ for it implies that Christian women are not able to relate to God on their own apart from male mediation.

This Teaching is not found in Scripture

In light of its popularity and acceptance, one would think that it would be easy to document this teaching with Scripture. The truth is, however, that it is glaringly absent from Scripture. We never hear of Paul talking about his “covering,” nor do we hear him claiming to be anyone else’s “covering.” Instead, in Galatians 1:1, he speaks of his independence from the Twelve and other Christian leaders, declaring his apostolic calling to be, Not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead. To the Colossian believers who were being led astray by false teachers, Paul reminds them that they are complete, not in Paul, but in Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him (Colossians 2:9-10).

Jesus too is silent about the need for a human “covering.” After cleansing the temple he was confronted by the religious leaders who demanded to know, By what authority are you doing these things? And who gave you this authority? They knew he was not ordained or authorized by them, so they wanted Him to explain His right or authority to carry out such an act? In contemporary terminology, they were asking, “Who’s your covering?”

Jesus responded by asking them a question and when they would not answer, he told them he would not tell them the source of His authority (Matthew 21:23-27). Jesus, of course, derived His authority directly from God. The Pharisees and Sadducees, however, could not accept this for they believed, like many preachers today, that God mediated all spiritual authority through the institutions they had established. In their minds, they were the “covering” for all Israel and Jesus was functioning outside their covering.

This Teaching Unheard of Before the 1970s

In light of the Biblical silence about this issue, we must ask how this teaching has gained such a stranglehold on the Pentecostal-Charismatic movement. The answer is a historical one and can be traced back to events within the Charismatic Renewal of the 1970s-80s.

Before the 1970s the “covering” doctrine was unheard of in the Spirit-filled movement. I grew up in a Pentecostal pastor’s home and never heard the idea of a “covering” ever mentioned or even alluded to in the way it is taught today. It was not until the 1970s when I attended a Bible school that was at the forefront of the Charismatic Renewal that I heard this word “covering” used in the authoritarian sense and particularly applied to women and their need for a male covering (this school actually opposed this teaching at that time). It was through the Charismatic Renewal of the 1970s that traditional teachings from the older churches about Spiritual authority being mediated through hierarchical leadership (which is the basis of the “covering” doctrine) were introduced into the Pentecostal-Charismatic movement.

The Charismatic Renewal Became a Bridge
with Doctrinal Traffic Flowing in both Directions

The Charismatic Renewal of the 1970s was a powerful work of the Holy Spirit and was very ecumenical with Catholics, Pentecostals, Episcopalians, Lutherans, etc. participating together in great conferences. Pentecostals, such as David Duplessis, Gordon Lindsay, and Oral Roberts, went out of their way to reach out to those in the older churches and denominations. As a result, many in the older churches experienced the baptism in the Holy Spirit and reached back across denominational and theological lines. Bridges were thus built between Pentecostals and those of the older churches.

We must remember, however, that a bridge carries traffic in both directions. And although the Pentecostals were able to carry their message of the baptism in the Holy Spirit and the present reality of Spiritual gifts to those in the older churches, they were recipients of traditional teaching coming from the other side about hierarchical leadership and the importance of being submitted to spiritual authority and under its “covering” or protection. They also received traditional teaching from the older churches about why women should be excluded from leadership roles in the church. These were new concepts to Pentecostals for, from the beginning of the revival in 1901, there had been an amazing openness to the gifts of women and a flattened sort of leadership in which leaders were called “brother” and “sister,” but never “father,” “bishop,” or other flattering, hierarchical titles.

Traditional Doctrines Intrude into the Movement

Many Pentecostals as well as the newer independent charismatics seemed awed at being in the presence and dialoguing with priests and theologians from the older denominations. And having little knowledge and training in historical theology, this made some of them (especially those desiring institutional power) susceptible to the traditional doctrines touted by those from the older, traditional churches.

An example of this came out of the Catholic-Pentecostal Dialogues, established in the early 1970s by David Duplessis and involving a number of Roman Catholic theologians and Pentecostal leaders who came together on a regular basis to seek common ground in their traditions. In 1976, after several years of involvement in these Dialogues, three Pentecostal leaders, Earl Paulk, John Meares and Robert McAlister, decided to adopt the Catholic/Episcopal form of church government for their churches. They began wearing clerical collars and made arrangements to have themselves consecrated as bishops. Another participant in the Dialogues, Dr. Jerry Sandidge, says that their decision to adopt traditional offices, titles, clothing, and doctrine was perceived by those on both sides of the Dialogues to be a direct result of the Roman Catholic influence in the Dialogues.[1] These men became very influential in the Pentecostal-Charismatic movement and helped promote a Catholic, hierarchical form of leadership that provided the theological basis for the “covering” doctrine. Yes, the traffic runs in both directions on a bridge and this certainly occurred in the Charismatic Renewal of the 1970s.

Out of this emphasis on spiritual authority that flowed from the older churches into the Charismatic Renewal, there emerged the Discipleship movement of the 1970s-80s that took the hierarchical “covering” doctrine to its extremes. In this movement it was commonly taught that a woman must always be under the “covering” of a man. If she needed to leave her home to do some shopping and could not get in touch with her husband to obtain his permission, then she must contact another man and get his permission so that she would always be under authority and “covered.” I remember hearing of one Christian man who decided to divorce his wife because he “could not bring her into submission.”

Although the Discipleship movement was eventually discredited, the same authoritarian spirit keeps reappearing dressed in different religious garb and called by different religious names. It is showing up today in places like the apostolic movement with its claims of governmental authority over God’s people, and the convergence movement that seeks to merge traditional high church liturgy and priestly order with the freedom of the Spirit.

The Fallacious Biblical Argument Exposed

The one Scripture that is used more than any other to try and validate the “covering” doctrine is I Corinthians 11:10 which, in the NKJV, reads, For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head because of the angels. If you are reading the NKJV you will notice that the phrase a symbol of is in italics. This is the translators’ way of letting us know that these words have been added and are not in the original Greek text. The same is true of the NIV which has a sign of which is not in the Greek text. In other words, this passage has nothing to do with a symbol or sign of authority as so many have made it out to be.

The Greek text literally reads, For this reason the woman out to have authority on (or over) her head because of the angels. The preposition translated “on” is epi and ordinarily means “over.” This has led some New Testament scholars, such as Dr. Gordon Fee, to conclude that Paul is here saying that the Christian woman ought to have authority over her own head to decide if she wants to wear a covering or not. He, therefore, suggests that a more accurate translation would be, For this reason the woman ought to have the freedom over her head to do as she wishes.[2]

This entire passage is obviously about a cultural issue in Corinth where the wearing of some sort of head covering or veil is a customary practice. Some have speculated that this passage is related to a situation in the Corinthian culture where only the temple prostitutes of Aphrodite, whose magnificent temple was in Corinth, went about with shaved and uncovered heads. Be that as it may, Paul is addressing the question of whether Christian women must adhere to the cultural norms of the city in which they live. The best interpretation of the passage is that Paul is affirming the right of Christian women in Corinth to decide for themselves if they want to wear a head covering. The passage has nothing to do with being under someone else’s authority

What about the phrase because of the angels? New Testament scholar, Philip Payne, has suggested that the answer lies with I Corinthians 6:3 where Paul says that in the future world the saints will judge angels. Paul’s point would be that the Christian women of Corinth, who would one day judge angels, should be exercising authority now over such insignificant matters as whether to wear a head covering.[3]

God Himself Will be Your Covering

Through Jesus Christ our One Mediator, we can have a personal, intimate relationship with our Creator and know Him as our “covering,” as David spoke of in Psalm 91. Psalm 91:1 reads, He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. Under the shadow is a metaphor or word picture for “a protective covering.” The protective covering is not a pastor, church or denomination. It is, instead, a personal thing between the individual and God. God Himself—El-Shaddai—will be our covering when we live in that secret place—that place of intimacy and fellowship with Him. This passage is clearly saying that the one who dwells continually in a place of personal intimacy with God will live under His protective care and be nourished and sustained by His own life.

Concluding Thoughts

Respect Christian leaders, Christian institutions, and fellow believers, but do not allow anyone to become a mediator between you and God. Maintain the Biblical truth of the priesthood of all believers (I Peter 2:9; Revelation 1:5-6). Remember that the redemptive work of Christ applies equally to both men and women as Paul so aptly states in Galatians 3:28, There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

As a Christian leader, I believe that an attitude of genuine humility and security in our calling will eliminate the need to promote oppressive “covering” doctrines that paralyze the body of Christ. I believe that as believers in general practice a mutual love and respect toward one another, the need and desire for an authoritarian “covering” will dissipate like the morning dew for we will realize that we are all under the covering of Christ and in mutual love we will hold one another accountable and be a protection for one another and for our brothers and sisters around the world.

Who’s your covering? It should be Jesus Christ! It should be God Himself!

By Eddie L. Hyatt

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pilgrim777

I do remember the whole Bob Mumford, Derek Prince and Jose Luis Ortiz discipleship/covering error. They showed themselves to be humble men of God in repenting for that error, too. It is interesting how it all happened and that is a story in itself. I may write a bit about it.

Bottom line is that we have liberty in Christ to follow Christ and there is no law we have to follow if we are walking according to the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus...against such there is no law.

We have no other mediators. The accountability movement is also in error. We are to be accountable to God only. If we concentrate on that, then our relationships with men will be as God wants them to be. Conversely, you can be "accountable" to men, but still not be accountable to God. That is the error of the Accountability Movement and the fact that we get our orders from heaven, not men.

Good article.

Thanks,
Pilgrim

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roadsign

Many thanks Brothertom for posting this article. The “covering” doctrine reminds me of medieval Catholicism. However, I suspect that it is more related to fleshly nature between the genders than to religious tradition.

It is always tempting for males to find ways to serves their fleshly power drives, BUT it is also appealing for women to have a “covering” ….. or rather a “knight in shining armor”. I wonder how many charming-type males in this movement found themselves needing to be “spiritual coverings”. I wonder how many questionable relationships were spawned in this doctrinal environment – where healthy relational boundaries were compromised by a misuse of scripture. I wonder how many marriages were broken.

And, to be honest, I can think of one: A close relative of mine by marriage is a direct descendent of one of the names mentioned in the article. Whatever happened, and if it relates to her parent’s divorce, remains a mystery. She refuses to talk about this entire movement. She doesn’t want to relive the pain. As she said, “It’s better to put it out of my mind.” All she disclosed is that the movement took precedence over the family. The full story remains hidden… for now.

False teaching, like this one, reaps its fruit, but sometimes it is the subsequent generations who must eat it.

PS: I found Fee’s commentary most refreshing. Rather than turn scripture into a (yet another) prohibition, it liberates the believer (women) to be responsible and mature members in God’s kingdom. This is bound to create effective mutual accountability - and a spiritually healthy church.

Again, MANY THANKS for posting this article. I had no idea that this "feature" was part of the movement's package.

Diane

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pilgrim777

PS: I found Fee’s commentary most refreshing. Rather than turn scripture into a (yet another) prohibition, it liberates the believer (women) to be responsible and mature members in God’s kingdom. This is bound to create effective mutual accountability - and a spiritually healthy church.

"Responsible and mature members in God's kingdom"!

If this were baseball, your statement roadsign, would be a homerun.

Why do we need men controlling us if we have the Holy Spirit?

The "control" of men is so different than the harmonic "control" and "leading" of the Holy Spirit.

Once you know the Lord you resist any control by devil or man as it violates your will and God's Spirit in us loathes that violation. Indeed, loathes and recoils at any violation of His children.

Pilgrim

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learjet

This is an excellent article! Thank you very much for posting this.

Coming from a pentecostal background I never felt good about the teaching, it never set well with me for some reason. I always felt that it put my pastor between me and the Lord and I could never find that in the Bible. Additionally, it set up an authoritarian rule in the churches that I attended and generally leads to much bondage, trust me, many personal scars.

Here is the scripture that is often used out of context that keeps people in bondage:

So Jesus went with them. But just before they arrived at the house, the officer sent some friends to say, “Lord, don’t trouble yourself by coming to my home, for I am not worthy of such an honor. I am not even worthy to come and meet you. Just say the word from where you are, and my servant will be healed. I know this because I am under the authority of my superior officers, and I have authority over my soldiers. I only need to say, ‘Go,’ and they go, or ‘Come,’ and they come. And if I say to my slaves, ‘Do this,’ they do it.” -Luke 7:6-8

What authority is this man talking about? It's the Lord's authority over sickness, and demonic influences. The soldier recognized that when Jesus said 'go' or 'do this' it happened just like his experience with soldiers and slaves.

Who was Jesus submitted to? The Lord directly!

It says in Revelation 1:5b-6 that we are a 'kingdom of priests'

To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

and 1 Peter 2:4-6 that we are a 'royal priesthood'

As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house[a] to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For in Scripture it says:

Who do priests answer to? The Lord directly, Christ alone is our mediator, AND PRAISE THE LORD FOR THAT!!

Nearly every week I see an article or hear a message who talks about 'coverings' and spreads around the dogma. I'm so thankful that I truly know in my heart now that NO ONE stands between me and Jesus, that's freedom!

I just heard a pastor that I have a great deal of respect for tell his congregation this week that 'if you aren't submitted UNDER a local pastor you are in rebellion' and it saddened me. There is no over and under in the New Testament, we all stand on the same level, with that being said I go out of my way to make life easy for them so that their 'accounting for my soul' will be an easy yoke to bear for them. :-)

Thanks again!

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sermonindex

"PS: I found Fee’s commentary most refreshing. Rather than turn scripture into a (yet another) prohibition, it liberates the believer (women) to be responsible and mature members in God’s kingdom. This is bound to create effective mutual accountability - and a spiritually healthy church."....Roadsign

Amen! My sentiments exactly. Sisters have been reduced to second class citizens within this servitude/submissive role that quenches their gifting and ministry.

Ministry is in THE HOLY SPIRIT and Christ is neither male nor female, or of the racially elite [ Jews ], and when Jesus ascended, He gave gifts to men, male and female. I believe in ALL of Isaiah 61 for all of our sisters and brothers. We are a body, and members one of another, and when we assemble, we come together in holiness as members one of another.

"How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying."

When all of you come together, not just the males. That's body life, and how we ought to be functioning, in the community, and the meetings. I really liked the liberty exposed here for sisters with this unique and scholarly approach to the "Head Covering"/Submissive" role of sisters.

[ Here is the core of Fee's study that Roadsign found so "refreshing", and so do I. [ A main reason why I posted this..]

"HAVING THE FREEDOM OVER HER OWN HEAD TO DO AS SHE WISHES!"

The Greek text literally reads, For this reason the woman out to have authority on (or over) her head because of the angels. The preposition translated “on” is epi and ordinarily means “over.” This has led some New Testament scholars, such as Dr. Gordon Fee, to conclude that Paul is here saying that the Christian woman ought to have authority over her own head to decide if she wants to wear a covering or not. He, therefore, suggests that a more accurate translation would be, For this reason the woman ought to have the freedom over her head to do as she wishes.

This entire passage is obviously about a cultural issue in Corinth where the wearing of some sort of head covering or veil is a customary practice. Some have speculated that this passage is related to a situation in the Corinthian culture where only the temple prostitutes of Aphrodite, whose magnificent temple was in Corinth, went about with shaved and uncovered heads.

Be that as it may, Paul is addressing the question of whether Christian women must adhere to the cultural norms of the city in which they live. The best interpretation of the passage is that Paul is affirming the right of Christian women in Corinth to decide for themselves if they want to wear a head covering. The passage has nothing to do with being under someone else’s authority."..............................

This might be a hard nut to crack for many reformed sects that have culturally been here for centuries....but we are one body.


[ I want to add that any freedom can be taken away by the flesh...by men and women. I also firmly believe that the Apostolic and Shepherd ministries with the holy Church are always male...and at the same time believe that women ARE the weaker vessel.....but the ministry is of the Holy Spirit...Christ Jesus emanating from within a vessel, be it male or female. ALL OF ISAIAH 61, WITHOUT ELDERING OR SHEPHERDING OVER MEN, OR THE CHURCH.]

We have deprived ourselves of one half, 50% of the ministry by shutting out our sisters....and remember, the meeting has always been a body functioning together as one...with gifting, revelation, faith, utterances and teaching. Together, we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit...not just one male teacher or Pastor.

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brothagary

this artical seems to take all athority from the husbane who IS THE HEAD of the wife ,and all the athority from the pasters and elders ,who were ascribed spiritual athority in the churches , to rubuke, corect ,reprove ,teach, exort,excomunacate

and raises the athority of the baby in christ to that of an elder

the bible talks about ascribing double honer to working elders where due

i dont think i agrree with ,this so called covering doctrine as taught by the romanizes ,,,but what i read seems to be a neejerk reaction in an unbibilcal direction as well
it make us all elders and laws unto our selfs ,acountable to no one ,,,,,thats friends in all pride ,and is a verry dangerous doctrine ,,,,,,

i believe this artical is clearly a falty interprtation

of head ship, and submission

now ,for me at this time due to bad experance with finding a church in my town ,,,,,finding my self in a oneness pentacostal church in the begining of my walk and becoming verry susipious of churches ,due to contact with liberalisim in our churches

i have never been under the athority of any pasters in reality ,,,,,so iam ,not using any preconceived ideas wrougt by the way i was taught in church

only a short ,12 years of bible study ,and a walk with christ,,who is my only true covering

athority and submission to deliever rubukes and exortation with spirtual athority is a clear theam of newtestament life ,,,i dont feel i need to insult a persons bible inteligents ,by posting what paull wrote about this ,,unless im asked

bless you all


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roadsign

but what i read seems to be a neejerk reaction in an unbibilcal direction as well
it make us all elders and laws unto our selfs ,acountable to no one ,,,,,thats friends in all pride ,and is a verry dangerous doctrine ,,,,,,

Brothagary, Would you mind quoting the lines from which you arrive at this observation?

Many thanks,

Diane

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brothagary

the whole artical in one line

a reaction ,to pharsaical athorarian type rulers in the so called church

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sermonindex

"We are, male and female, a Spiritual house, and a Royal Priesthood."....

"You also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

"Who do priests answer to? The Lord directly, Christ alone is our mediator, AND PRAISE THE LORD FOR THAT!!

"Nearly every week I see an article or hear a message who talks about 'coverings' and spreads around the dogma. I'm so thankful that I truly know in my heart now that NO ONE stands between me and Jesus, that's freedom!"....Learjet

This issue may be the decisive battle in these last days over who rules the Church....the Priest-Class; the Pastor over the Pew class, or the Lord Jesus over a jointly fitted body where each joint, male and female, provides and is used; members of one another.

Jesus was murdered for this exact issue; WHO would rule the Church.........

Then the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, “What shall we do? For this Man works many signs.

48 If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation.”

"Then, from that day on, they plotted to put Him to death."

I call this the religious spirit, which I see as Satan within the church, to tempt men to rule, because they think they deserve it. I have a maxim; when man is in control, Jesus is driven out...and it is always true....whether the service is orderly, or "blessed".

Ambition is the twin sister of Pride...and our duty is to allow the Holy Spirit to rule, and realize that it is Jesus' Church; He paid for her,. and loves her. The duty of the Pastors [ always plural ], elders, is to assure that He, the Holy Spirit is not quenched, and given free reign to rule and reign, as He is glorified within His Living Temple.

Believe it or not, He is quite able to do this all by Himself if we are willing to lay our agenda down, in love, and unto the least of the brothers or sisters, whoever that may be.

Thanks Learjet for you testimony.

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sermonindex

In all honesty I almost shuddered when I saw the title if this thread. I thought here we go again. But after reading iti found the article to be very liberating. Bottom line Christ Jesus is our ultimate covering and authority.

The danger I see is those who advocate a covering doctrine in the body of Christ are doing what the Moslems do. In Saudi Arabia western educated women cannot go out in oublic without the berka and a male escort of their family. Sound familiar? Before the U S led invasion of Afghanistan women were kept in prison in their own homes and could not venture out without being veiled head to foot in black and family male escort. Women were denied education. Still the same in most parts if the M E. If the extremist gave their way, all of the M E and the world.

This is why I shudder when I see pro coverings in this forum. In all honesty I do not know what is more unnerving. The rabid Moslem or the rabid Christian.

Blaine Scogin.

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brothagary

this athority mentioned here by paul was not apointed to every believer,,, but certaint male believrs

the task is cleary showns here in scripture ,,and who is to fulfill the tasks

pulling scripture out of contex doesnt change cotexual letter written to deal with this presice situation ,in question

Qualified Elders

5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you— 6 if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination. 7 For a bishop[b] must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, 8 but hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled, 9 holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.

The Elders’ Task

10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth. 15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

Footnotes:a.Titus 1:4 NU-Text reads and Christ Jesus.
b.Titus 1:7 Literally overseer

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roadsign

raises the athority of the baby in christ to that of an elder

I don't see how this can be deduced from the article. I do not believe the author is suggesting this at all. As I see it, it's an issue of personal responsibility for one's spiritual maturity. When certain people are kept in a state of spiritual/emotional dependency, willingly or not, that person cannot mature.

Strangely, this has been a gender issue. You don't see this in the parent-child relationship. Maybe that's because children are expected to grow up and become mature adults, not dependent children the rest of their lives. (That's not to exclude the need to learn from the more mature elders)


That's how I understand it, brother. Does that make sense?

Diane

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sermonindex

This article seems to take all authority from the husband who IS THE HEAD of the wife ,and all the authority from the pastors and elders ,who were ascribed spiritual authority in the churches ,to rebuke,correct ,reprove ,teach, exhort, [ and ]excommunicate. .....Brothagary..[ spellchecked ]

Not at all Gary. Of course a woman is to submit to her husband as head, and as Sarah who went so far as to call her husband lord....BUT...a woman is only to submit to her husband IN THE LORD...meaning, she still has every responsibility to submit to Christ first. The head of every man, and woman is Christ. Without this, there is no faith at all, but a blind faith that will not enable you to know God at all.

Without Godly Pastors the Church will perish, if it were possible. These are always plural; never singular and do three basic things;

FEED THE CHURCH OF GOD.

PROTECT THE CHURCH OF GOD.

MANIFEST THE LORDSHIP OF JESUS IN THE MEETING, AND COMMUNITY.

True Pastors will enhance body-life, and see that all are loved equally, and encourage, both men and women, to glorify Jesus by giving all in Godly order.

Colossians 2:4-6
King James Version (KJV)

"And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

"For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

"As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him."

Not all order is the kind that has a church bulletin that tells you beforehand everything that the Holy Spirit is going to do and say...and not all ministry in the world originated with the male only.

Remember, there were 120 men and women in the Upper Room...when they received Christ through the baptism of the Holy Spirit.....not just men. Ministry comes out of vessels that He lives in.

[ PS ] Your spelling is really bad. Download a google toolbar, for free, with a spell check button. I use it every post, and it makes me look like I got an edumucation! lol It's real easy....tom

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brothagary

so are you saying that the elders dont have the resonasability to feed the baby in christ unto maturity ,

as you said it is a personal resonsability for ones spiritual maturity

bless you diane

im going house hunting with my preious wife ,,so i would love to continue this thread later

i agree an elders task is not to keep a baby in spirtual depedence there whole life


but i also believe a believers task is not to take the athority of the elders upon them selves ,,,

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sarahsdream

Gary, can you tell me what the authority of your elder is in your life and your wife's life? Glad you are taking yur wife house hunting with you. Big mistake not to. You have wisdom. The Bible says to dwell with your wife in wisdom. :-)

Good job!

Martyr,

In all honesty I almost shuddered when I saw the title if this thread. I thought here we go again. But after reading iti found the article to be very liberating. Bottom line Christ Jesus is our ultimate covering and authority.

Me too Martyr, then I saw it was Tom and knew it would be good.

Pilgrim

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learjet

Glad you are taking yur wife house hunting with you. Big mistake not to. You have wisdom. The Bible says to dwell with your wife in wisdom. :-)

LOL, had to agree here! :-)

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sermonindex

As I reflected upon the article and the good post in this thread I was prompted to the above verses in Galatians. Under the New Covenant we are sons and daughters with God as our Father. We live by faith in him. Bottom line he is our authority. He is our covering. Yet the Spirit who lives on our hearts enables us to call out Abba Father. We live in a beautiful love relationship to him as father to child. This I find so beautiful, refreshing, and freeing. Any thoughts.

Blaine Scogin

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sermonindex

"As I reflected upon the article and the good post in this thread I was prompted to the above verses in Galatians. Under the New Covenant we are sons and daughters with God as our Father. We live by faith in him. Bottom line he is our authority."

"He is our covering. Yet the Spirit who lives on our hearts enables us to call out Abba Father. We live in a beautiful love relationship to him as father to child. This I find so beautiful, refreshing, and freeing. Any thoughts."..........Martyr....[ Galatians 3:26 and 4:7 ]

Thanks Blaine. Our responsibilities in life end up, as sons and daughters, as to whether we please our Heavenly Father, or do not. It is He alone that "TRIES THE REINS AND HEARTS "

"The LORD shall judge the people: judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me.

"Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.

"My defence is of God, which saveth the upright in heart."


......."And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."....Some works are wicked, and we must be careful to keep our hearts right.

Not only is this relationship a loving one, but a responsible one. It is not to be taken advantage of, through a wrong understanding of our position. If we do not have holiness of heart as our standard in the midst of this love, nor endure the discipline required to allow Him adapt us, change us, we will not gain Him.

Some, he will kill their children with death. In his love we must also fear Him, with real fear.

[ PS ] I just returned from Israel a few months ago and lived their in a Jewish household and community.[Moshav ].

The Jewish men seem to be much more involved with their families than Americans, and there was a school on the property also [ Neve' Ilan ].

I heard the cries and calls many times there, ABBA!. Still, the Hebrew word for father. FATHER!

I like that sound, and also cry that name out often..HELP! I need Him, and I want Him.

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learjet

I was listening to Brother Zac today and he brought up this very topic. Here's what he said:

"Every preacher who comes between the child of God and Jesus Christ is a deceiver, a spiritual adulterer who is coveting another person’s wife"

It's a great message that was just added to the CFC site here: http://cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/sermon.php?video_id=2048

Blessings

M
myfirstLove

Head Covering for Women - Zac Poonen

We begin this study with the conviction that the entire message of the Bible is the Word of God without any error.

There are two fundamental truths that we must bear in mind as we seek to understand God’s Word for us today.

On the day of Pentecost (Acts 2), God abolished the old covenant and began to deal with man thereafter under the terms of the new covenant (Heb.8).
There are historical and teaching sections in the New Testament. We must find the basis for new covenant doctrines only in the teaching sections. The historical sections merely tell us what the apostles and early Christians did. Many false teachings have developed from doctrines based only on the Acts of the Apostles - two examples being: (i) all believers must speak in tongues (based on Acts 2:4); and (ii) all believers must share a common purse (based on Acts 2:44).
Jesus told His disciples just before He went to the cross, “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear (understand) them now. But when the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth” (Jn.16:12,13). Jesus wanted to teach His disciples many more truths than He did while He was on earth. But they would not have been able to understand them until the Holy Spirit came to dwell within them and renewed their minds and gave them revelation. Some of these truths are what we find written in the New Testament epistles. So the epistles also contain commands from the Lord Jesus – but given through His apostles.

If we reject any command in any of the New Testament epistles, saying it was only for the time and place when it was written and not for us today, then in order to be consistent, we must give equal freedom to other people to reject other commands in the epistles and in the teachings of Jesus as also being only for that time and not for us today. For example, we must, in that case, give freedom to people to teach that forbidding homosexual behavior and same-sex marriages and divorces and premarital sexual intercourse, etc., were only for the first century and not for us today. Otherwise we will be inconsistent.

It is inconsistent, therefore, to say that every command in the New Testament is relevant for us today, and then to reject just this one command to women to cover their heads when they pray or prophesy (1 Cor.11:1-16).

(Note: We must distinguish between commands given by God and mere greetings given by the apostles. For example, the apostles give greetings and good wishes such as these in their letters: “Greet one another with a holy kiss” (Rom16:16) and “I pray that in all respects you may prosper and be in good health, just as your soul prospers” (3 John 2). These were obviously mere greetings and good wishes – and not commands or promises given by God – for there is no Divine principle taught in those verses, as is the case with head-covering, water-baptism and breaking of bread(Rom.6; 1Cor.11)).

Meaning of head-covering

There are at least three reasons given in the New Testament why a woman should cover her head when she prays or prophesies in the meetings of the church:

First: The Bible says, “A man should NOT cover his he…” – and the reason given is: … because he is the image and glory of God”. In contrast, we are told, “but the woman is the glory of man” (1 Cor.11:7). The glory of man must be covered in the church – and since woman is the glory of man, she testifies to this fact by covering her head. This is the plain and simple meaning of this verse.

Second: The Bible says, “A woman’s long hair is her glory” (1 Cor.11:15). The glory of the woman also must be covered in the church, just like the glory of man. And so she must cover her head which has the glory of her long hair. Almost all women are conscious that their long hair is a major part of what makes them look attractive – and that is why even among those women who do put a covering on their heads, most of them cover only a part of their hair!! If a woman does not want to cover her head, then the only alternative that the New Testament offers is to remove that glory, by shaving her head completely: “If a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head” (1 Cor.11:6).

Third: TheBible says: “Man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake. Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels” (1 Cor.11:10). The head-covering symbolizes the fact that a woman accepts her God-appointed role as having been created “for man’s sake” as his helper and therefore her willingness to be submissive to male authority – whether as a wife to her husband, or as a daughter to her father, or as a sister in the church to the church-elders. It is significant that the disappearance of the head-covering from women in Western churches (on a large scale) coincided with the time that the movement for “Women’s Liberation” (a phrase used in a book in 1949) began to spread in Western countries – about 60 years ago. The “angels” mentioned in this verse could refer either to the fallen angels or to the angels in heaven. So it could either be a reminder to women to bear in mind that the fallen angels fell because they were not submissive to authority. Or it could mean “A woman should wear a covering on her head as a sign that she is under man’s authority – a fact for all the angels (in heaven) to notice and rejoice in” (as The Living Bible paraphrases that verse).

1 Corinthians 11:16 says that every church that is a church of God, will insist on this head covering for women when they pray or prophesy. The Holy Spirit recognized that 20 centuries later this would become a controversial issue; and so He made Paul to state (in this same verse) that if anyone was going to be argumentative about this matter, he would not argue with such a person. He would just allow that person to continue on in his/her disobedience and inconsistency.

Some Questions

Some may say that the head-covering is only a symbol and therefore not so important. But baptism and the breaking of bread are also only symbols. The first half of 1 Corinthians 11 (v.1-16) explains the meaning of the symbolic head-covering for women. The second half of the same chapter (11:.20-34) explains the meaning of the symbolic breaking of bread. In the same way, Romans 6 explains the meaning of the symbol of water-baptism. Would we say that the Lord’s table and baptism also are unimportant, because they are only symbols? If we insist on baptism and breaking of bread as essential for believers, then we are inconsistent if we say that head-covering for women is not essential.

Some may say that head-covering for women is mentioned only once in the New Testament. Breaking of bread also is mentioned only once in the epistles. Likewise, the truth that God loves us as much as He loved Jesus is also mentioned only once in the whole Bible (Jn.17:23). But once is enough – to know this glorious truth. If Almighty God has given a command, then even if it is given only once in Scripture, that is sufficient. The importance of a command is determined by the importance of the Person Who gave it.

In ancient Babylon, Daniel stood for a law (Dan.1:8) that had been commanded only once in the Scriptures (about food in Lev.11; and wine in Prov.23:31). In the same way, in the midst of Babylonian Christianity today, we also stand for the commands of God – whether small or big, whether mentioned once or many times.

Some say that since we are commanded to pray at all times (Lk.18:1; 1 Thess.5:17), therefore a woman should cover her head all 24 hours of the day. Scripture must always be read in its context, if we are to understand it aright. The entire section (1 Cor.11:1-34) is dealing with the meetings of the church (Verses 16 and 18 make that clear). So it is obvious that the Holy Spirit was referring to church meetings when He gave this command. If we add to that, and insist that women should cover their heads at all times, then we will be adding to the Scriptures.

And further: If those who preach a 24-hour head covering are consistent, they must also teach that men (who should also be praying at all times) should never cover their heads at any time – and therefore should never wear a cap or a hat, at any time – whether it be hot, raining, or snowing. Such teachers must also then teach that women should keep their heads covered even when sleeping or showering/bathing (=24 hours). But they do not preach that – proving that they are inconsistent in their teaching. We can safely ignore such inconsistent teachers.

I have also observed that many sisters who practice a 24-hour head covering do not cover their entire heads. They cover only the back portion of their heads or just the small part of their hair that is tied up in a bun at the back of their heads – so that the glory of their hair is still visible. A small piece of cloth at the back of the head however is only an excuse for a head-covering – and not a head-covering at all, because the head and the glory of the hair are still not covered. Such “namesake head-coverings” are worn by legalists only to ease their conscience and to appear “holy” before others. But their teachers do not object to this, because they themselves are inconsistent in their teaching.

Some say that the hair itself is called the head-covering for women in 1 Cor.11:15. If one has understood the Divine principle taught in the first 14 verses of this chapter, then this verse will not cancel out the need for a woman with long hair to still cover her head with a covering. Paul could not possibly have taken 15 verses merely to teach that a woman should have long hair! That could have been stated in just one sentence! What does not come out in the English translation of the Bible is the fact that in the original Greek language (in which Paul wrote his letters), the Holy Spirit prompted him to use a different Greek word for “covering” in verse 15 than the one He used in verse 6. The Greek word used in verse 6 is katakalupto; whereas the word used in verse 15 is peribolaion (which is translated as “mantle” in Heb. 1:12). This makes it crystal clear that the mantle of hair referred to in verse 15 is not the head-covering referred to in verse 6 or in the rest of the chapter. Another proof of this is: If hair is the “head-covering” being referred to in this section, then every man who prays or prophesies would have to have his head completely shaved, if he is to obey this Scripture that tells him not to have his head covered!! The clear teaching of the Holy Spirit in this chapter is that the “mantle of hair” that nature has given a woman as her glory must be covered with a covering, when she is praying or prophesying.
Finally, we must bear in mind that:

- If we ignore any command of God in Scripture (however small) we will suffer some eternal loss (Rev.22:19).
- Those who cancel (or teach against) the smallest command of Scripture will be called “the least in the kingdom of heaven” (as Jesus said in Matt.5:19).
- The truths of Scripture are hidden from the clever and the intelligent and revealed only to the humble (“babes” - Matt.11:25 with Matt.18:4). The teaching of 1 Cor.11:1-16 will be simple and clear to the humble, childlike person. But one who depends on his human cleverness and intelligence will argue against the plain meaning of these verses.
- God tests our honesty in the way in which we deal with such verses of Scripture. He does not see whether we understand everything in His Word, but He does see if we are honest in dealing with His Word. The Lord says, “To this one I will look, to him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word” (Isa.66:2).
If a sister is still in doubt about what this passage of Scripture teaches, let her consider this: Isn’t it better for her to do more rather than less – and especially so, when there is no inconvenience or cost involved. What will she lose by covering her head when she prays and prophesies? Nothing. But think of what she will gain by covering her head, if she discovers at the judgment-seat of Christ that this was indeed God’s command? She will have the joy of having pleased her Lord on earth, in spite what other Christians taught and practised. So, every woman, if she is wise, will cover her head with a covering, when she prays and prophesies.

And in conclusion, as to the practice in our churches: We do not force any sister to cover her head (against her wish/conviction) in our meetings – because if she does this under compulsion, it will be a dead work; and God wants only cheerful givers of obedience (2 Cor.9:7). We will not judge such a sister either. We will graciously assume that she does not have light on this subject. But at the same time, if she does not cover her head, we will not permit her to publicly pray or prophesy in our churches – because we understand this to be the command of God – as explained in this article. We also believe that this is how it is practiced “in all the churches of God” (1Cor.11:16). We do not judge other churches that do things differently from us, in this or in any other area. But we fear God and desire to obey Him fully, even if some sisters (or their husbands) are offended by our stand on this matter and as a result, leave our churches.

“If anyone is truly determined to do God’s will, he/she will definitely know whether this teaching is from God” (Jn.7:17).

Those who have ears to hear, let them hear.

Amen.

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rbanks

With much respect for Zac’s ministry, I must say that this quote along with this article is disappointing.

quote-
“If we reject any command in any of the New Testament epistles, saying it was only for the time and place when it was written and not for us today, then in order to be consistent, we must give equal freedom to other people to reject other commands in the epistles and in the teachings of Jesus as also being only for that time and not for us today. For example, we must, in that case, give freedom to people to teach that forbidding homosexual behavior and same-sex marriages and divorces and premarital sexual intercourse, etc., were only for the first century and not for us today. Otherwise we will be inconsistent.

It is inconsistent, therefore, to say that every command in the New Testament is relevant for us today, and then to reject just this one command to women to cover their heads when they pray or prophesy (1 Cor.11:1-16).”
-quote

I find it very hard to believe that he would take clear teachings from the bible regarding sins that are called works of the flesh that would keep one from inheriting the kingdom of God to enforce his understanding on head covering for women. Then at the end of the article he lightens up and says this and then twisted back to the beginning of his forced argument:

quote-
"And in conclusion, as to the practice in our churches: We do not force any sister to cover her head (against her wish/conviction) in our meetings – because if she does this under compulsion, it will be a dead work; and God wants only cheerful givers of obedience (2 Cor.9:7). We will not judge such a sister either. We will graciously assume that she does not have light on this subject. But at the same time, if she does not cover her head, we will not permit her to publicly pray or prophesy in our churches – because we understand this to be the command of God – as explained in this article. We also believe that this is how it is practiced “in all the churches of God” (1Cor.11:16). We do not judge other churches that do things differently from us, in this or in any other area. But we fear God and desire to obey Him fully, even if some sisters (or their husbands) are offended by our stand on this matter and as a result, leave our churches."
-quote

Brethren, there is a big difference in the sins of the flesh that will cause one not to inherit the kingdom of God than in his understanding of a head covering. I am disappointed that he would place it in the same category.

That's all I need to say. I haven't posted in a while and may not post again in a long time. I don't know why I even posted this time although I have really enjoyed some of the posts recently by Dianne, Frank, and some others. It blesses people when people post with a excellent spirit that is of and led by the Holy Spirit.

Blessings to all!

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learjet

I just reread the article and the points that brothagary and the gal who inserted Zac's article here. Zac's article is probably the best laid out case, and it specifically deals with the issue in the context of marriage, and church meetings. It has nothing to do with 'spiritual covering' that is mentioned in the article. To me, these are two separate issues that are not related to one another, the link comes where he tries to explain 1 Cor 11:1-16.

The other day while browsing the site I was researching the early brothers like Polycarp, Ignatius and Clement. While researching the subjects I stumbled onto the issue regarding head coverings and if you read their quotes compared to what Zac has written there are no differences whatsoever.

Frankly, this is an area where I lack revelation and I've asked the Lord about it, He'll answer me. I had the same lack of wisdom regarding 'ornaments' and got light on the subject.

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sermonindex

"Brethren, there is a big difference in the sins of the flesh that will cause one not to inherit the kingdom of God than in his ["ZAC POONEN" ] understanding of a head covering. I am disappointed that he would place it in the same category."

That's all I need to say. "

Me too Rbanks...Tom

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roadsign

It is likely no coincidence that we have here two articles about coverings for females even though on the surface they seem to address different issues: a human covering for the conscience, and a cloth covering for the head. The articles can both help us address a practice that is far more reaching than these articles encompass.

Poonen, of course, did not invent his views. He has obviously accepted a long standing tradition which he attempts to support biblically. But his exegesis is highly problematic. You can see yourself the many times he uses shaky assumptions and human reasoning to support his conclusion. If his doctrine was sound, he would not need to do that. His rationale here is the characteristic black-and white thinking we see in legalism. Here he treats scripture like a book of rules, deliberately divorced from context, authorial intent, or the spirit of the law. For him, a rule is a rule; don’t think further. Yet he does think further, as in this advice:

Isn’t it better for her to do more rather than less

Okay, why not be super-spiritual and wear a burka. It can’t hurt. It might bring you extra rewards when you get to heaven. Paul himself put forth a male counterpart: “I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves.” Gal. 5:12 While you might find a reference to Islam offensive, keep in mind that in essence it is no different. It is legalism. And it obstructs salvation. It is a yoke around the neck (ie: on the conscience) – a damnable “head covering” which Jesus condemned it in his day.

The tragic outcome of this faulty “head-covering” philosophy is well-documented in evangelical history. However, it is not well-preached. I guess, that is because, while preachers are busy promoting this hellish teaching, the Christian counselors are busy in their offices cleaning up the mess. We don’t hear enough from them. Women share among themselves; some write. But the males who dictate the doctrine often do not hear. It doesn’t help that being the “head” they may regard themselves as beyond revelation from “below”.

We cannot deny that there are many godly women truly liberated in Christ who practice head-coverings in some way or another. But there are many, many, many who are paying the price. The entire church of Jesus Christ suffers – not just the 50% women. When women are kept in a state of emotional/spiritual dependency on males you have all kinds of immaturity issues and relational problems. Then there is indeed a reason to worry about them taking over and running the ship. The solution is not more heavy-handed restrictions, but Jesus Christ. You can be sure that women truly submitted to Jesus Christ will grow in godly submission in human relationships – and will assume appropriate responsibility for their “neighbor” – male or female, young or old.


Poonen’s article indirectly underscores the need for women to get their covering in order. They need to submit to their Lord, get their head well-covered with discernment, thinking skills, and a rigorous knowledge of good biblical exegesis. Here is where truly Godly male leaders can indeed serve as a covering for women – and shelter them from spiritual abusers.

When women take responsibility for their spiritual maturity and their intellectual growth, they will strengthen the church protect the men themselves from assuming ungodly roles. But it is often a costly obedience for women. They may even be labeled “feminists” or “Jezebels”.

On that final Day there will be no man standing between her and her God to defend her. Her only secure covering will be Jesus himself.

Thank you again to Brothertom for posting the article. It shows that there are men who really do understand and care. It benefits all.

Diane


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learjet

Poonen, of course, did not invent his views. He has obviously accepted a long standing tradition which he attempts to support biblically. But his exegesis is highly problematic. You can see yourself the many times he uses shaky assumptions and human reasoning to support his conclusion. If his doctrine was sound, he would not need to do that.

Hi Diane,

I couldn't help but notice that Zac's belief on this subject is a thorough study of scripture, and your take on the issue mentions no scripture at all. In doing so, your analysis boils down to the same thing that you accuse him of: "shaky assumptions", you provide no "exegesis" based on scripture, in the end we are left with your personal opinion. Which is fine, no worries there.

My problem with your take on it is the core(secular) assumption hidden inside the issue (please don't take this as me accusing you of 'worldliness', I'm not, but I used that word to make a point):

"The wearing of a head cover is oppressive"

If we start from this point of reference then the Lord, since His word instructs this, is oppressive.

Since I believe that the Lord is NEVER oppressive, never unkind, and always loving (this is my starting point of reference), what does this scripture mean?

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sermonindex

Wow, Roadsign...sometimes your logic shocks me, even though we disagree, this last post was brilliant, and I must say amen!

In it though, I would like to address another related issue to you, Roadsign, and to sisters here; whoever.

The issue of modesty, and dress. At what point does a woman's dress become unacceptable? I, obviously am male, and attracted to the female by my nature. This does not mean I lust though. I must walk in the Spirit , and deny my nature, which allows fellowship. I must not, and will not, know any man or woman after their nature, physical or soulish.

Often it seems, that women with the head-dress ARE the more modest, and there is a plague today that allows our sisters to dress with seducing intent, after the nature of their bodies. THE BLUE JEAN. How many women wear pants today....and I notice it...tight seductive, curve revealing clothing designed to arouse male intention.

This is a plague, I tell you, and it draws men into their old nature. As I said, I am not promoting the head dress, nor am I against it...let a sister be free...but I wanted to interject the Word here. This is the goal;[ about Godly womanhood.]

"Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;

"But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

"For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:"

This places the intent of the Holy Spirit clearly where it should be, IN THE HEART!..Not outward legal adornment.

The second issue that can be related to the head covering, as a symbol to remind and obey, that it is a MEEK AND QUIET SPIRIT that God desires, and especially that in Submission to their own Husbands.

Paul even goes so far as to say "That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed."

So, in a general way, not to any one person at all, I ask to the Christian sister;
ARE YOU INDEPENDENT AND BRASSY?..it will show.

Are you meek and quiet? and love God...it will show.

Are you chaste, and for the married, obedient to your husbands? To many reformed sisters, especially, the head covering represents this, and to many it is not legal, but voluntary, and helps them, reminds them of their daily walk to perform it. I didn't read Zac's article, but in this light, it may be interpreted differently I bet.

There is a great battle going on against women in general in the spirit realm...on one side, Jezebel is waiting as queen of the kingdom enticing her to be all that you can be, and take command, and the Throne...subtly manipulating all the way....and the other...meekness and submission. This is where the joy of womanhood is displayed, or stolen by a life of lust and power over all.

And the head-covering can be death to, for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.

Your Thoughts?

J
jimp

hi, the important thing is ; do not put anyone in bondage that God did not put them in. my pastor has a church that i think is one of the great churches in the world and he has asked an elder who is proven in the Christ as faithful to watch over my pastor in case he drifts into error or danger of error.it has worked well. but to say that someone musthave someone like this could move into the area of bondage. same with women... if a husband is loving his wife like Christ loved the church and is leading his family as a Godly man in the LOrd than his wife would be proud to have this covering...if her husband is a critic or an immature idiot, it would b e bondage for her.jimp

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roadsign

Learjet, you refer to my:

core(secular) assumption

Would you mind noting what you see “secular” in what I have written? Many thanks.

Also, I avoided an exegetical dissection of Poonen’s article, being that others have already alluded to that, and I wished not to make an even longer post. I hope it’s not “secular’ because I left out bible verses!

You include this quote in your post:

"The wearing of a head cover is oppressive"

I did not write this, so I trust you are not referring to me. I am addressing an unhealthy relational dynamic among God’s people that is often validated by headcovering teachings (be that human gender, fabric, or merely in ideology).


Often it seems, that women with the head-dress ARE the more modest, and there is a plague today that allows our sisters to dress with seducing intent, after the nature of their bodies.

I say Amen to this! Interestingly, even our secular society is raising the issue. In a recent MacLean’s edition ( a magazine similar to Times) the front cover has a Muslim women entirely covered in black except her eyes - standing beside a Western women with (obviously) nothing covering her except an identity-obscuring black strip over her eyes. The article title reads: “Veils: Who are we to judge. Extreme modesty or freedom gone wild?”. The Muslims are, it seems re-sensitizing us to the issue of modesty.

I have been round the mountain on this issue more than I care to recall. However, since you asked, I will attempt to go around the mountain yet once more – hopefully this time a rung higher. Here’s my thoughts:

When a church teaches its members the full implications of salvation then you will see a growing maturity in attire choices. The choices will reflect an awareness of one’s effect on others. You don’t get that kind of maturity in a highly legalistic environment. It's too self-focused. (It took me many years to figure that out)

Females want to please males, but many today have fallen for the lie – that their bodies must be sexually appealing. The male-driven fashion industry, the video music industry (run by white males), and so forth are exploiting females, who in turn have been seduced by feminism into believing that this is indeed liberation. I quote from MacLean’s regarding the slavish exploitation of teen girls: “How did those steeped in the women’s lib movement produce girls who think being a sex object is powerful?”

When females learn the value of being responsible, mature, decision-makers, and become less dependent on male approvals (be that secular or in church), they will dress accordingly.

The solution for God’s people regarding attire, I firmly believe, is the ancient law that Moses taught, Jesus taught, Paul taught, and James taught. “Love the Lord ….. love your neighbor as yourself.”

(That’s developed in my submission thread – and maybe I’ll get to the attire issue)

Thank you for raising a valid concern. Let’s keep our eye on the REAL solution: Jesus Christ. We’ll have better results. And they'll last for eternity.

Diane


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sermonindex

This thread started out with such great promise. And now it has degenerated. Honestly. Why bother????

Bkaine Scogin

L
learjet

The tragic outcome of this faulty “head-covering” philosophy is well-documented in evangelical history. However, it is not well-preached. I guess, that is because, while preachers are busy promoting this hellish teaching, the Christian counselors are busy in their offices cleaning up the mess.

Hi Diane,

I actually went out of my way to be step very lightly in my earlier reply, which is why I wrote the following:

(please don't take this as me accusing you of 'worldliness', I'm not, but I used that word to make a point)

I couldn't help but notice that you skipped that part but I digress.

Can you please tell me which part of 1 Corinthians 2:1-16 is 'hellish'? Was the apostle Paul teaching hellish things there? The apostle Paul was teaching hell? He was teaching a "faulty “head-covering” philosophy"?

How else can you take the scripture as written then?

If someone preaches that it isn't for today, then that man is esteemed to be a forward thinker and concerned about the state of the sisters in the church, a real man of God. If someone preaches that it 'says what it means and means what it says' then all of a sudden they are responsible for 50% of the church suffering (well you said it better than I can):

The entire church of Jesus Christ suffers – not just the 50% women. When women are kept in a state of emotional/spiritual dependency on males you have all kinds of immaturity issues and relational problems.

If you don't like the scripture, or the teaching why not just call a spade a spade and be honest about it?

I made the earlier points that you skipped as well; were these men (especially Polycarp, a direct student of the apostle John) men who had a "faulty “head-covering” philosophy"? They all said that head coverings were in fact the original doctrine of the apostles (as recorded in 1 Corinthians 11:2-16) read what I wrote:

The other day while browsing THIS(edit: originally I said 'the') site I was researching the early brothers like Polycarp, Ignatius and Clement. While researching the subjects I stumbled onto the issue regarding head coverings and if you read their quotes compared to what Zac has written there are no differences whatsoever.

So what is a man of God to do? Ignore the scripture or preach it and just suffer the consequences of women not accepting it?

This in fact was the ministry of Jezebel and she succeeded very well in it, 'the ministry of shutting the mouth of the prophet'. Her ministry caused Elijah to run into the desert in fear, the same fear that causes 'men of God' to remain silent on the issue. I would humbly submit to you that this silence has done more harm than good.

I've heard many people, preachers, prophets, so called apostles talk about how wanting they are of revival, how they yearn for the days of the early church where they would lay people in the pathway so that Peter's shadow would pass by an the person would be healed (Acts 5:15). I mean it's all romantic and wonderful sounding but the fact of the matter is these same men are ashamed of the very scripture that we are addressing here.

They are ashamed 1 Cor 11:1-16 and of 1 Timothy 2:11-15:

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Maybe ashamed is the wrong word, maybe I should have used the term 'live in fear' fear of their wives and families living in the gutter because 'wise', 'more learned', 'more socially astute' men will decide to 'vote them out' of their salaries in favor of someone who is more in line with 'the board's' 'wise' positions.

I don't judge them, I'm telling you of the realities of everyday life these folks.

For YEARS this has bothered me, and I didn't complain or fault find, I simply understood the reality of the predicament that a 'pastor' or 'prophet' is in. But I did one more thing, I prayed to the Lord many times, with many tears, that He would put me in a position where I could speak the truth and not have my family hurt financially for speaking the truth, and the Lord has heard my prayer. Just like He did regarding the request of Naaman:

"But may the LORD FORGIVE YOUR SERVANT FOR THIS ONE THING: When my master enters the temple of Rimmon to bow down and he is leaning on my arm and I HAVE TO BOW THERE ALSO—when I bow down in the temple of Rimmon, MAY THE LORD FORGIVE YOUR SERVANT FOR THIS.” “Go in peace,” Elisha said. -2 Kings 5:18-19

With that said, you can pigeon hole me into the neanderthal crowd and immature men group, I get that, it makes sense.

However, know this:

My wife is a rape victim, from the time that she was 6 years old, until she was 12 years old, she was raped continuously by 'a friend of the family' and her 'sister' (by her moms marriage). Out of 'fear' of me leaving her, she never told me anything about this for the first 16 years of our married life, I knew 'something' was wrong but she never told me. As you might imagine this caused SERIOUS problems in our marriage. I wish that I could put into words the pain that I went through (not that I was going through pain but I could feel that she was going through pain, and it made me hurt for her) and there were times that I would go to the Lord with nothing more than many tears and groanings because frankly I didn't even know what to pray.

Finally, through God's great mercy she confided in me and the Lord LITERALLY ordered her steps to a counselor that He could work through. He helped her through unforgiveness, hatred of men, fear and everything else.

In the end Jesus has been incredibly faithful and TOTALLY HEALED her from these deep emotional scars to the point where she is comfortable to tell everyone about her struggles and how He set her free and more importantly how He will set them free too. Shes' an amazing, beautiful woman, I hope you get to meet her one day!

As for me, I'm thankful that I got to be a bystander to watching the Lord work out, right before my own eyes, His amazing grace. By His grace I was able to endure many stripes, survive many irrational arguments, separations, being ridiculed by her, being ridiculed by my family because I should have known better and moved on, but I would have missed it all if not for His grace.

Frankly, my testimony about myself is in fact worthless. I wish that you could meet my wife and kids, talk to my neighbors and ask them.

I'm not a neanderthal, just a short, fat man in Michigan whose only desire in life is to see the church fulfill her calling.

With that said Good night and I hope that I haven't offended you, that sincerely wasn't my intent!

Blessings!

God bless all of you folks

M
Miccah

I'm not a neanderthal, just a short, fat man...

I prefer vertically, horizontally and forhead challanged. This is what the writer meant, in my opinion.

This is how it is stated in the original Greek.

S
sermonindex


"My wife is a rape victim, from the time that she was 6 years old, until she was 12 years old, she was raped continuously by 'a friend of the family' and her 'sister' (by her moms marriage)."

Out of 'fear' of me leaving her, she never told me anything about this for the first 16 years of our married life, I knew 'something' was wrong but she never told me. As you might imagine this caused SERIOUS problems in our marriage.

I wish that I could put into words the pain that I went through (not that I was going through pain but I could feel that she was going through pain, and it made me hurt for her) and there were times that I would go to the Lord with nothing more than many tears and groanings because frankly I didn't even know what to pray.

Finally, through God's great mercy she confided in me and the Lord LITERALLY ordered her steps to a counselor that He could work through. He helped her through unforgiveness, hatred of men, fear and everything else.

In the end Jesus has been incredibly faithful and TOTALLY HEALED her from these deep emotional scars to the point where she is comfortable to tell everyone about her struggles and how He set her free and more importantly how He will set them free too. Shes' an amazing, beautiful woman, I hope you get to meet her one day!

As for me, I'm thankful that I got to be a bystander to watching the Lord work out, right before my own eyes, His amazing grace. By His grace I was able to endure many stripes, survive many irrational arguments, separations, being ridiculed by her, being ridiculed by my family because I should have known better and moved on, but I would have missed it all if not for His grace.

"Frankly, my testimony about myself is in fact worthless. I wish that you could meet my wife and kids, talk to my neighbors and ask them."

"I'm not a neanderthal, just a short, fat man in Michigan whose only desire in life is to see the church fulfill her calling."

With that said Good night and I hope that I haven't offended you, that sincerely wasn't my intent!

Blessings!......[Learjet..]

God bless all of you folks!".............Learjet.

Frankly, Learjet, this testimony makes my few years on the Internet worth it. You cannot assess HOW powerful and impacting this testimony is. Thank You, Thank you so much, and your wife, for your bravery. I am humbled and overwhelmed as I type. Thank you and your dear...DEAR wife again.

I am widowed, but married 25 years. My wife was affected by exact trauma, but never healed completely. Yet, by your testimony, many will be healed. I have lived your sorrow.


I am overwhelmed...and again, Thank-you.

"God looks upon the Heart; Man upon the outward appearance."

Please see this, and let the children be free.

My love, and thanks, Tom


R
roadsign

Frankly, my testimony about myself is in fact worthless.

Oh, brother, please!!! Not at all!!! Such words shared from a male’s perspective are more fragrant than could ever be imagined. While the deepest woundings are usually caused by males because of their natural strength and power, in like manner, the deepest healings can come through males by such powerfully tender words as your own. What a glorious “covering” - in the true sense.

Many can be blessed by your OWN testimony. Indisputable your faithful love to your wife helped her in her own journey. I believe women’s groups who share these matters together should invite men like you. This could help break down the astronomical gender barriers….

…for the glory of God!

PS: I am deeply touched by your testimony!!


Diane

L
learjet

I am widowed, but married 25 years. My wife was affected by exact trauma, but never healed completely.

Precious Brother,

I read this and it totally crushed my spirit, I know this intimately, please know that I am now, and will continue to pray for you. If you ever need anyone to talk to, click my profile link and send me an email with your phone number and I will (with great joy) give you a call. You can call me ANYTIME, DAY OR NIGHT to talk and it will be my pleasure to pray, chat, laugh or anything else with you, know this!

Much love and grace to you!

L
learjet

I believe women’s groups who share these matters together should invite men like you. This could help break down the astronomical gender barriers….

Diane,

Thank you for your gracious words!

To be honest, I share this with very few people because every time I try to talk about it I usually can't compose myself because the story is so incredible, this is the way that I feel:

"what is mankind that you are mindful of them, human beings that you care for them?" -Psalm 8:4

But if the Lord spoke to me about it I would, there's a kind of joy that is unspeakable when you see a person totally set free from all of the internal garbage that used to bind them, it's amazing to say the least.

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was BRUISED (bled internally) for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. -IS 53:5

So few people realize that this YOKE BREAKING, WONDER WORKING, ABSOLUTE POWER is available to them, we don't hear much about how the Lord cleans the inside of our cups. Yet THIS PRESCRIPTION is exactly what people need to hear. :-) This area is where HE comes in like a flood, a flood that rinses all of the trash away, He is so wonderful!

Here in America, we aren't beaten so much, there are very few stripes on our backs but internally there are wounds that are as great OR GREATER that folks deal with daily.

The old proverb:

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me"

Personally, I'll take the 'stick' or the 'stone', those wounds will heal in a few days but the internal things are much harder to deal with.

HOWEVER, we serve a gracious, kind and loving Jesus who just happens to specialize in this kind of healing, and the results are more beautiful than words can express!! HE IS PRECIOUS!!

Much love to you and your family!

L
learjet

I prefer vertically, horizontally and forhead challanged. This is what the writer meant, in my opinion.

This is how it is stated in the original Greek.

Thanks Christaan I needed the good laugh! LOL :-)

S
sermonindex

As this thread was started about authority and submission. That begs the question, who is our ultimate authority? Who is it we ultimately submit to? Who is our ultimate covering?

Blaine

R
roadsign

Learjet, I suddenly realize that I forgot about the first half of you post earlier. I was so taken by your testimony! Really - I hope not to convey the idea that any scriptures can be set aside. There are valid principles in it all which when understood and applied as God intends, will serve to strengthen the Body of Christ – even in our contemporary world.

My concern is over the exploitive way scripture has been used to hurt the Body, as in misuse of power over women. I admit, when I was writing earlier I had specific examples in mind. There is a tragic kind of spiritual rape (as well as emotional/physical) that happens among God’s people – even under the cover of scripture. I never cease to be amazed how much of this lies well-hidden beneath the surface – until a woman has enough courage to disclose her story. Therefore, even in defending scripture, I believe we would be wise to acknowledge its misuse and label it for what it is: evil (not merely “error”) .

If you don’t mind, I would like to keep your testimony (and also Brothertom’s brief words) on file. This is the first time in my life that I have heard anything from a husband’s point of view. I believe it can be helpful and healing for women to experience evidence that males are not all brute unfeeling beasts. In a real way we share together in the pain of sin’s ravaging destruction – even as we share in the hope. But that sharing cannot happen when there is a thick barrier (ie ungodly “spiritual covering”) between the genders.

Diane

M
Miccah

Are children under a spiritual covering?

L
learjet

My concern is over the exploitive way scripture has been used to hurt the Body, as in misuse of power over women. I admit, when I was writing earlier I had specific examples in mind. There is a tragic kind of spiritual rape (as well as emotional/physical) that happens among God’s people – even under the cover of scripture. I never cease to be amazed how much of this lies well-hidden beneath the surface – until a woman has enough courage to disclose her story. Therefore, even in defending scripture, I believe we would be wise to acknowledge its misuse and label it for what it is: evil (not merely “error”) .

I would definitely agree with you here, the subject is very touchy (to say the least) legalism, and the letter of the law does kill. If done in the right spirit, it's a beautiful thing.

My own personal opinion is that as the body starts to take little things like this seriously, and done in the right spirit (in brokenness), we will start to see the victorious church arise, with great power. I'm soo looking forward to seeing it! In fact I look at this as a promise:

Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. 11 So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? 12 And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else’s property, who will give you property of your own? -Luke 16:10-12

Amen to that!

If you don’t mind, I would like to keep your testimony (and also Brothertom’s brief words) on file. This is the first time in my life that I have heard anything from a husband’s point of view. I believe it can be helpful and healing for women to experience evidence that males are not all brute unfeeling beasts. In a real way we share together in the pain of sin’s ravaging destruction – even as we share in the hope. But that sharing cannot happen when there is a thick barrier (ie ungodly “spiritual covering”) between the genders.

Before I wrote that post last night I asked my wife for her permission to write it and she replied "Absolutely, please do share it, maybe someone else will get set free from it and God will heal them".

By all means, use it to glorify the King!! To Him alone be the glory! :-)

~Blessings!

R
roadsign

My own personal opinion is that as the body starts to take little things like this seriously, and done in the right spirit (in brokenness), we will start to see the victorious church arise, with great power. I'm soo looking forward to seeing it!

My conviction too! For now, the church is noticeably inattentive to this. We are also weak and unpracticed in the language for relationship, for hurting and healing, for forgiveness and mercy, and so forth. We are much more adept in the language of law and of Christian ideals. Yet all that is useless in the face of suffering (as Martyr would remind us).

legalism, the letter of the law does kill.

Yes, legalism kills our language too, and also our sensitivity to other’s pain and joy. I discovered this when I fell victim to suffering. A legalistic frame of mind was a hindrance – in me and in those who wanted to help. Interestingly, those who had walked their own journey of despair and healing could help me best. They had the language and heart of empathy. They would speak with tenderness and understanding - such that I have never known before. I would like to become like that. I know your wife would be like that. What a gift to the church!

------------------------
And now…. back to the Hyatt article. It promotes liberty in Christ for women. Yet I am reminded of Luther’s attempts to teach liberty in Christ. He was misinterpreted by those who preferred political liberty. Likewise I’m sure there are some who misconstrue the Hyatt article and see it as condoning self-autonomy. (We do live in an anti-authority era, after all) The article could be complimented, I think, by something that addresses the issue of boundaries: What of her personhood belongs to human authorities and what rightfully belongs to God. In other words, what might actually be vicarious faith (living it through husband, pastor or priest) and needs to become her own faith journey with Christ? A false trust, after all, is idolatrous – even if this is a godly spiritual authority figure. In that sense “spiritual covering” doctrine is intensely idolatrous.

Diane

S
sermonindex

"What of her person-hood belongs to human authorities and what rightfully belongs to God? In other words, what might actually be vicarious faith (living it through husband, pastor or priest) and needs to become her own faith journey with Christ?

A false trust, after all, is idolatrous – even if this is a godly spiritual authority figure. In that sense “spiritual covering” doctrine is intensely idolatrous. "................Diane

I think that these issues will be confronted when we are forced into them, much the same ways the early the early Jerusalem had to. The true church will be a grass-roots thing, that sets the body above the meeting, and Jesus's love for the individual will be proven NOT to be vicarious.

Consider the amazing Mary/Martha scenario at Bethany. How could either of these lowly women relate to the King of All without permission from their covering?.....but they did, and quite boldly, too....and How? could Jesus so intimately speak out "Mary!", on Resurrection morning, if she did not know His voice....[ no covering there either....].

Both men and women are responsible to live their lives by Faith, and please God in their decisions with all of their might. This is how the "just" live.

P
pilgrim777

Amen, Tom and roadsign!

"Suffer the little children to come to Me."

S
sermonindex

Thanks Pilgrim. My point is obviously that the Father loves His daughters equally with His sons, and He desires maturity in them as well as sons.

The idea of covering for them, is different than Earthly submission, though this is true for us all, a married woman must submit to her husband, "IN THE LORD!"..[ NO SIN SUBMISSION..]

Any woman born may become as close to Jesus as any man ever born......and this must involve intimacy and knowledge of Him alone through submission to Him alone.

Much of the Earthly doctrines concerning these issues has hurt women, binding them in Christ, as they believe the legalistic aspects of submission is God's way; it is not.

But, this idea of submission to authority was not only dictated to sisters, but men too. In my early walk, our Jesus People Church was high-jacked by extreme control; submission and authority "Shepherding" movement. I broke away, but felt I had lost my faith for a while. The aricle below will help explain;

www.cultwatch.com writes;

Their teaching was known as the Shepherding or Discipling Movement and effectively acted as a Christian "wrapper" for Mind Control, giving these practices a veneer of biblical respectability. They taught a covenant love that evidenced devotion to God by submission to a man; shepherds ruling over sheep in a pyramid structure.

Down through the pyramid went the orders, and up through the pyramid went the tithes. Some shepherds even started placing personal revelations (rhëma) on a par with Scripture. However the excesses of the movement soon became evident even to those who had started it.

Derek Prince was the first to break away, repenting publicly in 1981, saying, "I feel as though I have offended the Lord Himself", and "these particular emphases very easily lent themselves to an unhealthy submission resulting in perverse and unbiblical obedience to human leaders".

Anyway, they were my "covering", and when this happened, Jesus Himself no longer was. I about died.

R
roadsign

Anyway, they were my "covering", and when this happened, Jesus Himself no longer was. I about died.

Brothertom. I suspect you were unaware of the insidious danger when you submitted yourself to this “covering” system. I wonder if it seemed right at the time, and helped you feel spiritually secure. You must have endured a significant spiritual upheaval as you came into this awareness. I say that because that was my own experience. It was THE most revolutionizing experience in my entire life. It was the same problem, but a different religious context. I’ll share a bit:

A Fragile Covering:
In my formative years, I relied heavily on the approvals of authority figures for my sense of worth and belonging – and above all, to avoid the pain of rejection. And it worked well. I used my natural capacities to please: I could be a good girl, I could excel in school. I did a lot of good in church. My many successes along with the many approvals from authorities served to COVER my fears and insecurities. I expected God to be pleased too. But I was still held hostage by besetting insecurities. I didn’t know why.

Then my Covering Cracked:
For a time my covering-system kept my life together, much like the shell of an egg. I was Humpty Dumpty on a wall, but it was a shaky existence. Then an earthquake rocked my life, I fell off, and the shell broke. I spilled out all over. I about died! (to borrow your words).

The spark that set this all in motion was my Baptist pastor. He was a fine teacher and preacher, and I relied heavily on his strong leadership. But then he deteriorated, and began doing things that, I felt, hurt the church. I became intensely disturbed. Finally I cried out to God and asked God what I could do about it. I opened my bible in desperation, and saw blazing from the page these words: MINISTER TO THE MINISTER. The Spirit swept over me with powerful conviction, and I realized that I had had no interest in my pastor’s own well-being. I didn’t really care about him at all. I cared about myself. Really I needed him to hold up my humpty dumpty wall: the church. My understanding of “submission” was extremely perverted – although just as he taught it, and just as the church typically teaches. That day, the Lord gave me a brand new meaning of “submission”. And that day, I realized that I failed in the greatest commandment in the Bible: love my “neighbor”. I began to see my pastor, not merely as a shepherd, but as a sheep too. And more significantly, I began to look to God to be my Shepherd.

However, surrendering the church as a “covering” would take a long time yet.

Leaving and cleaving: A new Covering:
Many years later, the Lord used a powerful dream to signify my liberation from childish dependency on church to grown-up Christ-dependency. Here it is:

A little girl was standing in front of a large stained glass window laid out like a table in the center of a large room. She was thrashing wildly at the table with her fists. Then an adult female came up behind her and restrained her in a tight grip. The girl was upset, and desperately wanted to be freed. In the next scene in the dream an adult woman was seen at the bottom of a stairway – fallen, bloodied, and dead.

This was not my dream. It was given by God to a fellow poster on a Christian forum. The dreamer shared it without knowing the meaning of it. I knew exactly what it meant because it harmonized perfectly with how God had been working in my life: I was the little girl desperate to break my conscience free from the restraints of religion. The woman was my conscience trying to hold me back – lest I crack the stained glass (representing the church system). The dead woman signified the final liberation: I died – so that I could live anew.

That day, on that forum, I claimed the dream as God’s revelation about me; and then I shared and confessed my story to faith. Then others shared and confessed – and then a mini-revival broke out. It was so amazing, no words could describe. As one poster said, “You could feel the electricity” It was the Spirit of God touching down on a few scattered saints over a few days.

Summary: This false “spiritual covering” of the church – it’s leaders, husbands… is a powerful idolatrous force among God’s people. It is a way of meeting the need for security (more in women) and significance (more in males) apart from seeking God to meet those needs. It usually operates unconsciously (as for me). At times God’s people unwittingly take advantage of this besetting human tendency: They systematize and baptize it, believing this is God’s way. But it is the way of death. And praise God for that! Only in that death, can new Life spring up!


Diane

S
sermonindex

roadsign: Reading your post was like reading a testimony from one of the great saints of old! and written well enough to be a #1 christian top seller! I enjoyed reading it, and was excited to see what was coming as I did.

It confronts something that has attacked our Church from day one; THE SPIRIT OF RELIGION. I call it, THE BREATH OF THE DRAGON...which the Lord also revealed to me in revelation.

It is derived from the great red Dragon himself, and it is infused in the church, that she would fail, that grace would be removed from her as they took their trust away from Him on the Throne, and placed it into the hands of mortal man.

Man is convinced that he is qualified, called, and ordained to be the husband of the church, and that the "ministry-class" itself ought to take the reins and rule and reign over her. This is the at the root of the Pulpit Pew mentality, the Pastor class, vs: the Drone class.

I think it is THE crucial battle of the church in these last days; and those who will not bend to the mandates of One Body and One Spirit in equal love, will be rejected by God Himself; to love as brothers and sisters....even unto the very least. Why?.."As much as you have done it to these, the least of my brethren..[ men and women..], you have done it unto me.

This Pastor, Ministry class see themselves as the designated rulers, and you said it so well, as "HUSBANDS" over God's heritage. These are not ministers at all, but usurpers; The "Preacher" class...over the "lay" class.

This is at the root of the Greek word NICOLAITAN. "VICTORIOUS OVER THE PEOPLE"...Yes, the Pastor class, or Priest class. Really, it does not exist in holy doctrine...........................................

"Is there a FULLER meaning to the word?
The full meaning of Nicolaitan, in its native tongue and in its ecclesiastical setting, is that the bishops and prelates of the Church have gained a triumphal victory or conquest over the LAITON, the laity, until they have been compelled to submit to the arbitrary dominion of men who have become that thing which God hates - 'Lords over God's heritage':

"The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed: Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; NOR AS BEING LORDS OVER THOSE ENTRUSTED TO YOU ('lords over [God's] heritage' in the KJV Bible), but being examples to the flock;" (1Peter 5:1-3).
www.biblestudy.org

Yes, their intent is to husband the church, unto their own power lusts, and call it the Pastorate. It is controlling and hateful, and when left unchecked, will steal your crown as their own.

This is precisely what Jesus confronted in the Pharisee's, who loved the praises of men, the chief seats, and to be called Rabbi. These are they also, who murdered the King of Glory, as they do today...[ Protestant and Catholic..]

] more later..]

S
sermonindex


Thought relevant.

Slay the Church to save the ministry.
roadsign: Reading your post was like reading a testimony from one of the great saints of old! and written well enough to be a #1 christian top seller! I enjoyed reading it, and was excited to see what was coming as I did.

It confronts something that has attacked our Church from day one; THE SPIRIT OF RELIGION. I call it, THE BREATH OF THE DRAGON...which the Lord also revealed to me in revelation.

It is derived from the great red Dragon himself, and it is infused in the church, that she would fail, that grace would be removed from her as they took their trust away from Him on the Throne, and placed it into the hands of mortal man.

Man is convinced that he is qualified, called, and ordained to be the husband of the church, and that the "ministry-class" itself ought to take the reins and rule and reign over her. This is the at the root of the Pulpit Pew mentality, the Pastor class, vs: the Drone class.

I think it is THE crucial battle of the church in these last days; and those who will not bend to the mandates of One Body and One Spirit in equal love, will be rejected by God Himself; to love as brothers and sisters....even unto the very least. Why?.."As much as you have done it to these, the least of my brethren..[ men and women..], you have done it unto me.

This Pastor, Ministry class see themselves as the designated rulers, and you said it so well, as "HUSBANDS" over God's heritage. These are not ministers at all, but usurpers; The "Preacher" class...over the "lay" class.

This is at the root of the Greek word NICOLAITAN. "VICTORIOUS OVER THE PEOPLE"...Yes, the Pastor class, or Priest class. Really, it does not exist in holy doctrine...........................................

"Is there a FULLER meaning to the word?
The full meaning of Nicolaitan, in its native tongue and in its ecclesiastical setting, is that the bishops and prelates of the Church have gained a triumphal victory or conquest over the LAITON, the laity, until they have been compelled to submit to the arbitrary dominion of men who have become that thing which God hates - 'Lords over God's heritage':

"The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed: Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; NOR AS BEING LORDS OVER THOSE ENTRUSTED TO YOU ('lords over [God's] heritage' in the KJV Bible), but being examples to the flock;" (1Peter 5:1-3).
www.biblestudy.org

Yes, their intent is to husband the church, unto their own power lusts, and call it the Pastorate. It is controlling and hateful, and when left unchecked, will steal your crown as their own.

This is precisely what Jesus confronted in the Pharisee's, who loved the praises of men, the chief seats, and to be called Rabbi. These are they also, who murdered the King of Glory, as they do today...[ Protestant and Catholic..]

] more later..]

R
roadsign

#1 christian top seller

I had to laugh when I read this, Brothertom. It reminded me of the time I wrote my testimony out and gave it to the pastor, asking if he would like me to share it. He read it, but then told me that it was not possible for me to share because the deacons did not accept females speaking in church. (not true!) I had no difficulty reading between the lines: The testimony was threatening to the entire establishment. I graciously accepted that decline as from the Lord. Sometimes the best treasures remain tenderly hidden in our hearts. So much for a #1 best seller!

The full meaning of Nicolaitan, in its native tongue and in its ecclesiastical setting, is that the bishops and prelates of the Church have gained a triumphal victory or conquest over the LAITON, the laity, until they have been compelled to submit to the arbitrary dominion of men who have become that thing which God hates - 'Lords over God's heritage':

This is a fascinating bit of information. Of course! Really, it is the way all religious branches of the church tend to drift. The Spirit gets straight-jacketed pretty fast – one or two generations. And soon humans set down their own territorial “flags”. Males are naturally the more powerful, and the will turn their god-given calling into an exploitative control. Today females are doing it too.

I’ve encountered these besetting “spiritual coverings”. It can develop in a short time – perhaps through an insecure fledgling pastor, or it's a titanic institutional hierarchy. But I have also learned that you can graciously submit in such contexts anyway. I don’t mean jumping to the game like an automaton. That merely feeds the problem. I mean serving the people in a way that gives a taste of hope and Life. That’s what ministering (submitting) is supposed to mean. (Just remember your life boat –ie, Jesus Christ)

As I see it, as long as the idolatrous system is working “well”, there is no point in trying to knock it down. You just meet resistance. People get extremely defensive. And frankly, when people are invested in this system, and it holds their sense of identity together, they won’t see objectively. They can’t. To them it’s the best church around – maybe the ONLY one. Trying to strip it off prematurely is like stripping off the “fig leaf”. That “covering” serves a purpose for them, and you have to accept that. When we try to tear people’s “covering” off of them we do damage. We can even destroy people – and make it much more difficult for them to accept Jesus. When God works in hearts, in his timing – he does a thorough job. He provides his new covering in Christ.

I think that’s where our calling comes in: when the fig leaf “coverings” start to crumble. After all, it’s not the healthy, but the sick who need a doctor.

Is that not so?

Diane

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pilgrim777

I have been reading this thread and reading 1 Cor 11 and I believe I finally understand what Paul was saying.

I believe what I am seeing is not that the Apostle is talking about "veil" being a cloth or "covered" being a cloth, but he is talking about hair the ENTIRE time.

That is why he finishes with this:
1Co 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a dishonor to him?

1Co 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

This troublesome passage (for which there are not 2 or 3 other witnesses in scripture) is now very clear to me and Paul was indeed dealing with customs in Corinth, but this can be used in a wider sense.

Let's read through it. I am substituting "long hair" or "short hair" for covering or veil.

1Co 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having long hair (having his head covered), dishonoreth his head.

And long hair defintely covers a man's head and is seen as effeminate even in Paul's time.

1Co 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a dishonor to him?

1Co 11:5 But every woman praying or prophesying with her head unveiled (short hair) dishonoreth her head; for it is one and the same thing as if she were shaven.

Matthew Henry says, "Should there not be a distinction kept up between the sexes in wearing their hair, since nature has made one? Is it not a distinction which nature has kept up among all civilized nations? The woman's hair is a natural covering; to wear it long is a glory to her; but for a man to have long hair, or cherish it, is a token of softness and effeminacy.”


1Co 11:6 For if a woman is not veiled (does not have long hair), let her also be shorn (just shave it all off): but if it is a shame to a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be veiled (have long hair).

1Co 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to have his head veiled (have long hair), forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

1Co 11:8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man:
1Co 11:9 for neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man:
1Co 11:10 for this cause ought the woman to have a sign of authority on her head (long hair distinguishes a woman from a man), because of the angels. (long hair is sufficient to show that she is not trying to be like here husband in terms of authority and gender).

1Co 11:11 Nevertheless, neither is the woman without the man, nor the man without the woman, in the Lord.
1Co 11:12 For as the woman is of the man, so is the man also by the woman; but all things are of God.
1Co 11:13 Judge ye in yourselves: is it seemly that a woman pray unto God (with short hair) unveiled?

And to explain it all and it fits perfectly with what I have substituted, above.

1Co 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a dishonor to him?

1Co 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

1Co 11:16 But if any man seemeth to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

We have no custom in the churches where men have long hair like a women and women have short hair like a man.

Thanks to Matthew Henry for helping me to see this.

Matthew Henry:
He enforces his argument from the natural covering provided for the woman (1Co_11:13-15): “Judge in yourselves - consult your own reason, hearken to what nature suggests - is it comely for a woman to pray to God uncovered?

This is really cool. Paul was never talking about outward clothing to prove inward submission.

He was always talking about long hair on men and short hair on women.

And a final comment by Matthew Henry.
The woman, on the other hand, who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered (short hair) dishonoureth her head, namely, the man, 1Co_11:3. (He goes on to explain) She appears in the dress of her superior, and throws off the token of her subjection. She might, with equal decency, CUT HER HAIR SHORT, or cut it close, WHICH WAS THE CUSTOM OF THE MAN IN THAT AGE. This would be in a manner to declare that she was desirous of changing sexes, a manifest affectation of that superiority which God had conferred on the other sex. And this was probably the fault of these prophetesses in the church of Corinth. It was doing a thing which, in that age of the world, betokened superiority, and therefore a tacit claim of what did not belong to them but the other sex. Note, The sexes should not affect to change places. The order in which divine wisdom has placed persons and things is best and fittest: to endeavour to amend it is to destroy all order, and introduce confusion. The woman should keep to the rank God has chosen for her, and not dishonour her head; for this, in the result, is to dishonour God.

Does this make sense to you? It makes perfect sense to me. I don't feel like I am trying to fit a square block into a round hole anymore.

Prayerfully look at this and tell me what you think.

Pilgrim

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sermonindex

This is where the IM comes in handy. You'll need to correct your sentence here when it says,

"And long hair defintely covers a man's head and is seen as effeminate in Paul's time."

You need to insert the word, "even" so it would be rendered, "as seen as effeminate "even" in Pauls time".

It avoids the nagging question of "what do you mean Paul's time? it's in our time as well". With the word "even" it includes both.

Excellent post brother.

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sermonindex

Thanks Pilgrim: I wanted to add a couple of ideas in the mix. You may well have hit on something ..[ thanks Bro. Henry too..] that needs to be addressed.

Every manifestation of holy angels in the Bible were sent by, and under the authority of God...there is not one that is manifested that is not. They were all messengers, under the Headship and direction of God Himself. "Because of the ANGELS....."; This is the symbol of being directly under that authority; the Headship of Christ.

1Co 11:10 "For this cause ought the woman to have a sign of authority on her head (long hair distinguishes a woman from a man), because of the angels." (long hair is sufficient to show that she is not trying to be like here husband in terms of authority and gender)......

But, couldn't long hair also represent a woman's submission to God Himself?...just as the angels are wholly submitted to Him? Does God call women to belong to Him, and directly communicate with Him? Of course He does, and it is quite evident that many women will remain virgins, unmarried, widowed or divorced, or as is the case of some...married to an unbeliever.

In this case I must agree...that AS A WOMEN, they are displaying their submission to God...which must be. It is a different characteristic of the female, that she must be bound to, to be bound to God, yet in her obedience to God Himself, she must also be submissive to her husband, even as Sarah called him lord, and to Church Shepherding. She cannot usurp herself over.

She is not permitted to usurp authority over other men, nor to teach doctrine over other men, nor to supplant male Eldership; but to be in submission to it.

1Co 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having long hair (having his head covered), dishonoreth his head. This, in assuming the male role; IE: shorn hair, would do so.

The end of it is that IT IS NOT A LAW!...or legalistic. NO!...but a matter of the attitude of the heart.

"Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;

But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:"


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pilgrim777

Thanks for the IM, Approved. ;-)

Correction made.

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pilgrim777

You know, I should have just asked my wife about this.

I told her about this discussion and how we have come to the conclusion Paul is talking about long and short hair and she said, "Yeah, that's exactly what I was taught growing up".

Reminds me of a story.

Men in Heaven - Who is the Head of the Household?

At the end of the age when all the believers were standing in line waiting to get into heaven, God appeared and said, "I want all the men to form two lines. One line will be for the men who were the true heads of their households. The other will be for the men who were dominated by their wives."

God continued, "I want all the women to report to St. Peter."

The women left and the men formed two lines. The line of men who were dominated by their wives was seemingly unending. The line of men who were the true head of their household had one man in it.

God said to the first line, "You men ought to be ashamed or yourselves. I appointed you to be the heads of your households and you were disobedient and have not fulfilled your purpose. Of all of you, there is only one man who obeyed me. Learn from him."

Then God turned to the lone man and asked, "How did you come to be in this line?"

The man replied, "My wife told me to stand here."

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sermonindex

"Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;

But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:"

There is a "macho" spirit in much of the church, that see women as creatures to be controlled, and dominated....or...in a marriage, much the same way as the Moslem, as property.

This could not be further from the spirit of truth, for GOD looks upon the hidden man of the heart to see trusting faith, in the man, and in the women. I think of holy Abigail, who became the wife of David the King.

"Now the name of the man was Nabal; and the name of his wife Abigail: and she was a woman of good understanding, and of a beautiful countenance: but the man was churlish and evil in his doings; and he was of the house of Caleb."

So, David watched and protected Nabal's herds, and when he then asked for some provision, Nabal refused. Abigail knew the results, and was a strong prophetic woman; she appeased, and prophesied to David;

"And when Abigail saw David, she hasted, and lighted off the ass, and fell before David on her face, and bowed herself to the ground,

And fell at his feet, and said, Upon me, my lord, upon me let this iniquity be: and let thine handmaid, I pray thee, speak in thine audience, and hear the words of thine handmaid. "

"Let not my lord, I pray thee, regard this man of Belial, even Nabal: for as his name is, so is he; Nabal is his name, and folly is with him: but I thine handmaid saw not the young men of my lord, whom thou didst send.

"Now therefore, my lord, as the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, seeing the LORD hath withholden thee from coming to shed blood, and from avenging thyself with thine own hand, now let thine enemies, and they that seek evil to my lord, be as Nabal."

"And now this blessing which thine handmaid hath brought unto my lord, let it even be given unto the young men that follow my lord.

I pray thee, forgive the trespass of thine handmaid: for the LORD will certainly make my lord a sure house; because my lord fighteth the battles of the LORD, and evil hath not been found in thee all thy days.

Yet a man is risen to pursue thee, and to seek thy soul: but the soul of my lord shall be bound in the bundle of life with the LORD thy God; and the souls of thine enemies, them shall he sling out, as out of the middle of a sling.

...."And it shall come to pass, when the LORD shall have done to my lord according to all the good that he hath spoken concerning thee, and shall have appointed thee ruler over Israel!....!

"That this shall be no grief unto thee, nor offence of heart unto my lord, either that thou hast shed blood causeless, or that my lord hath avenged himself: but when the LORD shall have dealt well with my lord, then remember thine handmaid!"

"And David said to Abigail, Blessed be the LORD God of Israel, which sent thee this day to meet me!" and soon, upon Nabal's soon death, they married., and bore David a son, Chileab, also called Daniel.

I want to focus on her marriage to Nabal, This appears to have been a stench of a union to her, as it seems she despised him. Women , at that time, and today in Hindi and Moslem cultures, were given by the fathers, often in their extreme youth. I have met some, who were promised in marriage at five years old, and knew it as friends, and consummated at a ceremony at 20 or so. [ and very happy, believe it or not! ]

Not so with Abigail. I would bet she begged God every night for deliverance, a he must have disgusted her. Yet, by faith, she submitted and performed her womanly duties to this pig of a man. This is faith; submitting to your lot, as God has ordained it, by faith. Remember Joseph; these faiths intersect...Remember Naomi too.

Reading between the lines, it seems that she knew that God was going to deliver her, and it seems she was a Godly prophetess also. She knew that her husband would die, and that David would marry her....yet she had never laid eyes on him until that day.

She submitted to her husband, and trusted in God. HIS faithfulness to her delivered her.She submitted to authority in harsh circumstances, and believed.

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sermonindex

Why must we resist another over us? Why should we resist another covering over us, than Christ?

Jesus must be our head over us all, in an individual way, or, we are not His. The Pharisee of old, often is the Ministry class of today, and the "ministry is seen, as "heading up a work", or "MY" church...."He has a church" is often head, and the ministry then becomes another acquisition, another rung in the ladder to step up attainment, as your own spirituality and reputation become your motives, and means of making a living.

The true pastors...[ always and undeniably plural and unpaid non-hirelings ] will always work for the opposite than becoming the head....they will always fling themselves into others to establish Jesus as their head....to instill faith towards God, and dependence towards God in others as a good steward of the holy mysteries, not to empower themselves.

This is the only path to maturity in anyone, and their desire is to see
Christ formed in others, not control.

THE PASTORS COMMAND AND CODE.

"But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good thing, and not only when I am present with you.

!!! "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you. !!!

This is always the attitude of the true Godly Pastor, and control and salaries are profane to them,and they see both as wicked, and avoid them.

HOW THE PASTORS ATTITUDE SHOULD BE ABOUT MONEY AND SERVING.

"And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

"I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.

Yea, ye yourselves know, that THESE HANDS have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.

I have shewed you all things, how that so LABORING ye ought to SUPPORT the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to GIVE than to receive."

THIS WAS THE FOUNDER OF THE ENTIRE GENTILE CHURCH; PAUL..

This was the leading Apostle in all of the Hebrew Church...Peter.

The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed: Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; NOR AS BEING LORDS OVER THOSE ENTRUSTED TO YOU ('lords over [God's] heritage' in the KJV Bible), but being examples to the flock;" (1Peter 5:1-3).

Yes, their intent, the modern ministry class is to husband the church, unto their own power lusts, and call it the Pastorate. It is controlling and hateful, and when left unchecked, They will steal your crown as their own.

This is precisely what Jesus confronted in the Pharisee's, who loved the praises of men, the chief seats, and to be called Rabbi. These are they also, who murdered the King of Glory, as they do today...[ Protestant and Catholic..]...and why we must oversee the church unto Jesus as Lord for all, and resist any other spiritual covering than Jesus the Lord. He bought the Church, paid with His blood, and is the only one worthy, able and responsible to be a covering for any man or woman.

He alone is our covering, and the one who deserves our worship alone.

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sermonindex


He alone is our covering, and the one who deserves our worship alone.

S
savannah


Who said this:

Quote: "The head of every man, and woman is Christ. Without this, there is no faith at all, but a blind faith that will not enable you to know God at all."

Who said this:

Quote: "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

And this:

Quote: "For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the Savior of the body."

Where are we headed?

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sermonindex

Savannah: I apologize but I have failed to get your point. You quoted Paul the apostle, and then this?

Quote: "The head of every man, and woman is Christ. Without this, there is no faith at all, but a blind faith that will not enable you to know God at all."

That seems fair to me...and then,
"Where are we headed?"

Some are headed into this truth, and some are not. Men and women must be covered by God alone, in their individual faith, or there is no faith, but blind religion. This is the nature of controlling doctrines and religious institutions that would have you submit to them, tithe to them, and submit, "be covered by them."

Men and women are both subject to this true faith, and submission to the Lordship of Christ.


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sermonindex

The writer of Hebrews says no longer will a man teach his neighbor or a man his brother saying know the Lord. He goes on to say all will know God. Thus implying in the new covenant their covering is God himself and not men.

Blaine

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murrcolr

Brothertom

God has a plan to deal with very issue you are bringing to attention in this post.

In the next Move of God, God is going to raise up his people...

When this happens a lot of Pastors are going to struggle with it because they "control the people" God’s words not mine. But God is going to “raise up his people”....

The first night I attended the church, God told me what wrong within that church was the Pastor he was controlling, God told me he was so controlling that he held people back from developing, anytime anyone stood up to do something for God he would do everything in his power to put them down.

I was forever under correction or under church discipline; I endured it as I knew God wanted me at that church. I remained in that church for around 10 years and kept what God told me close to my heart and didn't share with anyone and but I never really got close to the pastor because of what God said.

I have been away from the church for a long time and the only contact I have with Christians is here on SI. But don’t feel sorry for me I am not after pity as it was all a part of my calling……..

There is a four part vision posted on SI by Frank aka apollos it touches on this very subject. If I remember correctly it’s in part 3 of the four….

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sermonindex

murrcolr said:

"God has a plan to deal with very issue you are bringing to attention in this post."

"In the next Move of God, God is going to raise up his people..."

"When this happens a lot of Pastors are going to struggle with it because they "control the people" God’s words not mine. But God is going to “raise up his people”....

"The first night I attended the church, God told me what wrong within that church was the Pastor he was controlling, God told me he was so controlling that he held people back from developing, anytime anyone stood up to do something for God he would do everything in his power to put them down."....murrcolr

This is typical in the laity/clergy church where man is the head. I believe brother, that you are hearing what the Spirit is saying to the churches, and the primary thing God is doing, is pulling His people out of that Nicolaitan system, and that by severe discipline.

He is driving the Bride into the wilderness, where bewilderment and uncertainty force her to depend on Him alone, which she does, and will do, and when she comes out of the desert, She will be like an army with banners.[ earned in battle ]

The Priest/class, or "ministry class" despise this Godly order, for it deprives them of power and income when they must become just another brother serving out of love....which GOD ORDAINED...unto the least of the Brethren....be he leper or prince.

Hang in there...for the first sprout will be seen soon, of that holy church, and the controllers and despots will be left out at the rear of the line, unless they repent, and become a good brother to the church, and a good son to the Father.

"The hireling will flee, because he is a hireling." Hired for money and power, and the honor of men.

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sermonindex

Brothers agree with what you are saying. No where in scripture do we see the distinction of pastor/laity. The New Testament affirms our calling as saints and priest. All of this with only Jesus as our covering.

Mat.23:8-12 Jesus teaches there is no religious structure in his kingdom. Bottom line all are brothers and sisters with him as the leader. Or covering if you will.

Blaine

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sermonindex

Without Godly Shepherds the church would perish, if it were possible. The Biblical Shepherds in the New Testament were always plural, always unpaid non-hireling non-professionals, appointed by God, and given authority witnessed by men; an office if you will.

Their duties were to see that the Holy Spirit of Promise was not quenched, either in the meeting, but primarily in the community, and their duties were tri-fold.
1. Feed the Church of God
2. Protect the Church of God
3. Manifest the Lordship of Jesus in doctrine and in deed, and serve the church to the end that Christ
Jesus is manifest in Her to an end towards maturity.

Timothy was instructed by Paul to ordain them [ Pastors, Shepherds, Bishops; all the same word..] as he travelled. It was necessary for if Godly men were not appointed to oversee the church, and given the authority to do so the holy church would be devoured...and in many cases, was....such as most of the churches of the 7 Asian ones in REVELATION 2 AND 3; LAODICIA EVIDENTLY BEING THE MOST CORRUPTED.
Blaine stated this below:
" Brothers agree with what you are saying. No where in scripture do we see the distinction of pastor/laity. The New Testament affirms our calling as saints and priest. All of this with only Jesus as our covering."

Mat.23:8-12..... "Jesus teaches there is no religious structure in his kingdom. Bottom line all are brothers and sisters with him as the leader. Or covering if you will."...Martyr....[ Blaine ]

" But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.

Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.

But the greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted." Matt: 23:8-

I agree with you martyr: We are a NATION of Priests, and we are all brothers....There is no Priest Class...and by the way, this spirit, the spirit if the Pharisee, the Nicolaitan.,..[ conquerors of the Lay....the ones below...] was the focus of much of His ministry, in exposing their controlling and arrogant spirit, and these are the very one who counseled how they would murder him, and his greatest living testimonial, Lazarus. They eventually succeeded, and thank God he laid His life down, Heh?

"Now there was also a dispute among them, as to which of them should be considered the greatest. And He said to them,

“The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and those who exercise authority over them are called ‘benefactors.’

....... "But not so among you; on the contrary, he who is greatest among you, let him be as the younger, and he who governs as he who serves."....... Jesus.

So it is in the Priest class today. They love to think of themselves as the "Ministry Class"...and thereby actually hinder the true "body ministry" where everyone contributes as "each joint supplies", and where in the meeting "all would prophesy"...and one has a testimony, one a song, one a teaching".

An Elder/Shepherd IS a brother first, and acts as an elder brother to lay His life down so that the local body dwells in safe rich pastures, and he gardens also. It is often necessary to weed the garden of God, and it is always necessary to feed the flock...

He is ordained to see that:"For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he! "
THE STATE OF THAT BLESSED AND ORDERLY CHURCH.

"Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow together to the goodness of the LORD, for wheat, and for wine, and for oil, and for the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all."
WHEN THE BODY IS IN ORDER, AND FLOWING TOGETHER IN LOVE...[ a Shepherds charge to facilitate...a highly spiritual matter...].....

Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, both young men and old together: for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow."

Healing and joy. God's desire for His people that is the result of true Godly Shepherds that come under the church, to love Her and serve her.

Everyone in this body, men and women, have Jesus Himself as their covering and Lord. It's called ABIDING in Him!

He, as Blaine said, is our covering, or we do not know Him.


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