Who is Zac Poonen?

I wonder...

I welcome you to the SI forum albeit with a bit of trepidation due to the question that you ask and the reply to your own question. I hope my concerns are unfounded.

If you are here to bring a brother's perceived shortcomings to everyone's attention then I would ask you to reconsider, we have enough of that type here already and they bring no fruit to bear here.

But to answer your question, Zac Poonen is one of the best Bible teachers I have ever heard. He is what I would truly call a "teacher" and the Lord's anointing is clearly upon his ministry. I thank God for Zac Poonen.

In Christ,

Ron

Dear Krautfrau

I find your observations very interesting, as it touches my life rather personally. I experienced freedom from sin, and it's power over me after my conversion, and for almost 6 months. Then gradually I started to fall into religiousness (too many church meetings, Bible school classes, following a Pastor etc, without spending time with Him alone) luke warmness, and eventually into sin again.

To be totally honest, I desire a "deeper work of Grace", and I would love to know how to receive it. I have fasted, repented, confessed, gone for deliverance, you name it … I can not say that I am on the other side of the Jordan at the moment.

Blessings

zarqon or is it zarqun? I think you know more than you reveal.

Is this you? What is your game? Did you forget the Internet is public?

http://forum.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=53001&page=2

I do not understand your post clearly. I know Brother Zac personally and I thank God everyday for his life witness. Zac speaks in tongues and he has accepted this. He does not do it in public. Once my church Elder asked Zac whether he has attained complete deliverance from Sin and he answered "close to attaining it". This is his personal answer and not something that he talks about in pulpit. Also I do not believe that one needs to become like Jesus to talk about Holiness. 1 John 3-9, clearly says that we will be like Jesus only when we see him face to face during his second coming. But till then our attitude should be to purify our self with this Hope. Even apostle Paul did not achieve it during his time of leadership.

Salvation has three parts and the first two parts that we experience on earth are Forgiveness and Freedom from sin. Jesus summed this up when he spoke to the Women caught in adultery (John 6) saying "Neither do i Condemn you, Go Sin no more". Zac believes in leading people into this second part of salvation which is currently hidden by Babylonian Churches.

Next time you see Zac tell him from me that he should test the spirits and stop the tongues then he might achieve his aim.

1 Corinthians 4-4:-
My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.

Having a clear conscience towards God does not mean we became Holy. I am sure Brother Zac has a clear conscience like Paul. Even I achieve it many days. But that does not mean I am holy. There are so many Sins that I commit unconsciously. The Holy Spirit reveals them to us as we continue walking with Spirit. So once you have been revealed of a new sin you repent of it and then by the power of Holy Spirit you overcome it. So it is a continuous process of sanctification. It cannot be done in 1 day. It was same for Paul, John and everyone who is born of Flesh (initially). This is called Growth in Jesus. Anything else that you preach is not what the Bible tells us.

If Brother Zac starts sharing such sins that the holy Spirit has revealed to him then we will all be so discouraged because we have been committing them unknowingly everyday and we are so far behind to reaching it. It will be like a PHD student sharing his question paper to a 3rd grade student. Even the men whom you think have had complete victory they will also be discouraged by Zac's standard.
For example once he said 'he considers even entertaining the thought that another women cooks better than his wife is adultery'. How many of us have such a high standard? This is God's standard for us, and we will get there as long as we keep walking in the Spirit keeping a clear conscience.

What I am trying to say here is Zac is in the process of Sanctification like how Paul, John and other men of God were on this earth.

Speaking in Tongues is not wrong. Bible encourages us to do it. God gifts us. But it should be inspired by Holy Spirit. You cannot speak whenever and where ever you want. There are some conditions and restrictions. It is a Gift that we get from God same as other gifts like prophesying. Please give me a Bible Quote that saying speaking in tongues is Wrong?

Sree,

Do you think Holy means sinless?

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

These men were not sinless.

Is Peter talking about the Church here or just a few select Christians?

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

I am sure Brother Zac has a clear conscience like Paul. Even I achieve it many days. But that does not mean I am holy.

Don't you see how dangerous it is to keep likening Zac to Paul or John?

If Brother Zac starts sharing such sins that the holy Spirit has revealed to him then we will all be so discouraged because we have been committing them unknowingly everyday and we are so far behind to reaching it. It will be like a PHD student sharing his question paper to a 3rd grade student. Even the men whom you think have had complete victory they will also be discouraged by Zac's standard.

For example once he said 'he considers even entertaining the thought that another women cooks better than his wife is adultery'. How many of us have such a high standard? This is God's standard for us, and we will get there as long as we keep walking in the Spirit keeping a clear conscience.

What I am trying to say here is Zac is in the process of Sanctification like how Paul, John and other men of God were on this earth.

To say such things about a brother is to do them a great disservice and elevate them higher than I think they would want. We should not want to be elevated at all. We must decrease and He must increase.

Pilgrim

Do you think Holy means sinless?

Don't you see how dangerous it is to keep likening Zac to Paul or John?

What is dangerous here? What makes you feel we are different from Paul? Paul and John are also sinners who were saved by the grace of God. I did not compare anyone to Jesus. If I did you can accuse me.
Brother this is what I am trying to prove here, we can also be like any other men of New Testament. There is nothing preventing us other than our unbelief.
What I explained there is Paul's standard might be very higher than you, me and even Zac but that does not mean that we cannot reach that standard. If Paul can have clear conscience then why can't I have.

To say such things about a brother is to do them a great disservice and elevate them higher than I think they would want. We should not want to be elevated at all. We must decrease and He must increase.

Obviously Brother Zac does not want anyone to think highly of himself, just like any Christian should be. This does not mean that we should not look up to him. I look up to him. Paul said follow me as I follow Christ. So if you look up to Paul and share it with others, is it wrong? I know he (Zac) has higher standard based on what I witnessed in his life and in his teachings. I shared it here. I did not say that he became like Jesus or that he is the most perfect man in world etc. I just said his standard is much higher.

Again you may not agree with me and think that you have got all the answers. I have responded to every single thing that you posted. If you seriously have any questions to be answered then please post. If you think you already have an answer then I don't have time to argue. Thanks for your post.

Even the men whom you think have had complete victory they will also be discouraged by Zac's standard.

For example once he said 'he considers even entertaining the thought that another women cooks better than his wife is adultery'. How many of us have such a high standard? This is God's standard for us, and we will get there as long as we keep walking in the Spirit keeping a clear conscience.

I can certainly see why many are in awe of Zac. I must admit that is quite a high standard. My cooking would definitely make others sin (hope it did not). Fortunately, my wife's cooking is very good or according to this standard I might be in serious trouble.

But then you say "this is God's standard for us". Is that true? I have never thought that if I considered another wife cooked better than my wife that it would be considered adultery.

Certainly, there must be a way to compliment the cooking of a brother's wife without going over the line. You can simply say, "Your lasagna was very good". And then your wife can always ask for the recipe.

When I think of the standard of Jesus, I think of grace through faith. I think of love, mercy, forgiveness, holiness, gentleness and meekness.

Your thoughts are most welcome, but the standard of Jesus seems more attainable to me, for I have already violated Zac's. I do know some women that cook better than my wife, even though her cooking is excellent.

Blessings,
Pilgrim

But then you say "this is God's standard for us". Is that true? I have never thought that if I considered another wife cooked better than my wife that it would be considered adultery.

Pilgrim, I hope you had nice fun.
The Pharisees might have laughed when Jesus said getting angry at your brother is equivalent to murdering your brother (Matthew 5). How else will these men who did not repent for killing Prophets will react to anger? But that does not mean what Jesus said is not truth.
Indeed it is God's standard and I am answering you assuming you want to know the answer. Jesus said if you lust after another women you already committed adultery. So if you admire another women's body you have already committed adultery. How different it is if you admire another women's cooking skills and think it is better than what God has provided for you?

You are again agreeing on my point that there are unconscious sins in our life. The more we walk with Spirit we will get to know the unconscious sins in our life and become more like Jesus.
I am not here defending Zac, my point is that one does not need to be perfect to teach Holiness. We are all being perfected and will be perfect one day when Jesus returns. I want to end it here. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, too.

Pilgrim

And if you admire someone else's cooking you are now accused of being discontented "with what God has provided you".

I did not know that "admiring" a quality or trait or gift in someone else was a sin?

Dear Father,
Thank you for the price that was necessary to purchase all of your children. From my human view, it wasn't easy, I do not fully understand it, but thank You!
Thank You, also, for raising up brother Zac Poonen to preach Your Word. Thank You for your faithful servants the world over. Please uphold them by Your victorious right hand. Please protect them from the strivings of men, from the scourge of the tongues of men. Encourage their hearts when the going gets tough.
Would You also open their eyes to spiritual reality as You see it?

Please Father, help all of us, Your children, to be about the things that really matter. L
Thank You, Father, I ask these things in the name of Jesus, of Nazareth. Amen.

Amen to your prayer, Theophila.

Zac Poonan does not preach gradual sanctification

I am not saying I have heard all his sermons. But based on what I have heard he teaches Gradual Sanctification. Please read his book on -'Good Foundation'. He explains the 3 steps in Salvation clearly. The example I quoted comparing the Grade of Student to Growth in Christ was actually taken from him. Even Paul agrees there are different standard among believers that is why he says some can take only Milk and some take solid food. The standard I quoted earlier is a solid food and it cannot be had by all.

Saying we sin unconciously is against the witness of the scripture which says that He keeps us from falling Jude 23

No it is not. Then 1 John 1-8 is also contradicting to Jude 24. 1 John 1-8 says that "If we (believers) claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."
See Jude 24 talks about Stumbling. Stumbling is different from falling. Anyways Stumbling means committing a Sin that you know is a Sin which is Conscious sin. God protects us from that by the Power of Holy Spirit. John 1-8 talks about unconscious sin, though God protects us from conscious sin and helps us to have clear conscience towards him, it does not mean that we are sinless. We still need blood of Jesus for God not to look at our unconscious sin.

For example when I came to Christ from Hindu background I knew that talking low of someone is Pride. Once I overcame that by the power of Holy Spirit the Holy Spirit revealed to me that even if I entertain the thought that I am superior to another person in any area say education or athleticism, money, power etc, I have pride in my heart. Because Bible says that -'all I have is received from God'. Now I have to overcome that by his power. God gives power but I should be seeking his power to give up that attitude of Pride. This is growth in Christ. I am just giving you an example with Pride as sin. There are so many areas and we need to be Christlike in all these areas.

So when I stopped talking low of others my conscience might be clear that I have not sinned but that does not mean that I became Perfect and sinless. I have sins but I am unware of it. Once the Holy Spirit makes me aware of it I immediately seek to overcome that and repent as explained in 1 John 9.

See if you do not want to agree on unconscious sin then it is fine with me, you posted a question and I responded with another scripture and explained the answer. Lets stop here, I do not want to argue as I find Christ will never argue with someone who believes he has all the answers. Jesus did not speak a word to Herod, because he knew that Herod was not truly seeking an answer.

Dear Krautfrau

Thank you for your prayer, advice and references. I appreciate them all, and will look into them tonight/soon. I have one more question. How do you understand praying and singing in the Spirit.

Blessings
Joch

Why do you think that God does not warn us before we sin (unconsciously)?

Good question. Sanctification is a gradual process. Taking my life example, when I as a believer was struggling with speaking low of others, how will it benefit me if the Holy Spirit shows me that I should not even think low of others? Only when I overcome one I will be revealed next. It is like a Kid has to pass 1st grade for it to take the lessons of 2nd grade. What will happen if we give the lessons from 1st to 10th Grade at a stretch and then expect the kid to pass all at 1 time? The kid will lose interest and will be heavily discouraged. It is like feeding solid food to a new born baby which will kill the baby.

Also look into nature created by God, every growth happens progressively and that is why it is strong. For a plant grows slowly and it becomes tree and then bears fruits. If the seed becomes a tree with fruit directly then will the tree be strong? will it not break? A strong foundation is made by digging deep with lots of effort.

God wants us all to be in the image of Jesus and it is his promise, we are all in this process including those who preach. But we might be in different stages in this process.

Now it is not wrong for a kid to be in 1st grade, but what if the kid sits in 1st grade for 40 years? will his father be happy with him? Same way more than 99% of Christians today have their christian life standstill because the do not know this truth. They are happy that they are in school but there is no improvement.

They are not willing to see if the Holiness teachers of old were actually right on this one, and the evidence is that they do not have the witness of entering His rest and living without sin.

Hi krautfrau,

The doctrine that you are referring to here is the false teaching of sinless perfection. It was a major stumbling block to John Wesley, in fact it was the core of the falling out between George Whitfield and John & Charles. Later Charles was reconciled to George but he never was with John.

If you believe that you are without sin, you are deceiving yourself:

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." -1 John 1:8

No one has 'entered' this state, except Jesus himself. The 'holy people of old' never entered into this sinless state either because it's unattainable in the flesh. Furthermore these 'holy people of old' are not our examples, we have one example, His name is Jesus Christ.

The good news for us is that we all fall short of this and He is merciful.

I'm not going to defend the man (for obvious reasons). But, I thought I'd share this ad lib interview of Zac recorded 3 years ago in which he speaks candidly on some of the very questions that are raised here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKMWj01nJG0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNsCA-okdVk

Here's a video snippet that helps me remember how much Jesus loves me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kj2QIQNk4eY

And then there is the testimony of having observed Zac's personal life closely for many years; but I won't speak on that.

Hi Santosh,

I'm sure your dad is used to worse than this :-)

And then there is the testimony of having observed Zac's personal life closely for many years; but I won't speak on that.

Who else could attest better, save sister Annie? lol

Hi SPoonen, Can't believe you are here. We have met in Bangalore Conference. I am from Atlanta CFC. Nice to see you here.

one thing iv noticed obout those who preach sinless perfection ,is that they them self have never reached that state yet but say that it is possable

they preach a standard ,but dont live the standard

and the bible seems to point to hipocreats ,,when one does not practice what one preaches

to say brothers you can and should be sinless ,and then not practice total sinlessness ,is a contradiction

if i say brethen you should be sinless

and then slip up once after i preach that word ,,im a hipocreate

can any one here say they are sinless and can garenty that they will continue this ,,,,,,,,,,iv nevver herd of anyone like that except our lord

Sorry if the below is a digression but...

1. If somebody is GENUINELY concerned that somebody is guiding people in the wrong way (and your intention is that only and not to tarnish anybody's image out of immaturity/jealousy/time-pass/personal offence/any other reason), please fast and pray about it first.

2. Whom are we fixing our eyes on? Zac? Wesley? Finney? Paul? All these people are a few among that great cloud of witnesses and are just pointing to us the Blessed One. There may be areas in which somebody is not right. But God is still able to lead His children into all truth. Yeah, ultimately it is God who leads us into truth and not man.

3. Each one is going to give an account only for himself/ herself and his/her assigned tasks and not for somebody else or for somebody else's children.

4. Peter in one place says that some of Paul's teachings are hard to understand. In another place Paul and Barnabas split up due to difference in opinions. And in another place Paul was offended because Barnabas was siding with the Jews. So, are we here to judge who was right or who was wrong, and form a case and pronounce our verdicts? There are better ways to waste time.

5. And we always ought to tremble and fear of what Jesus said - Judge not so that we are not judged. The same measure we use on others will be used on us too. And it is always good to think "Perhaps, it is MY understanding that is wrong and he/she is right." and pray about it and pray for the other person too. If the thing REALLY matters and if our attitude is humble, God will set it right in due time - in whichever party that is wrong or perhaps in both!; if the thing does NOT matter, well no worries...it just won't matter.

6. In discussion forums such as this one, if you want to share something which you think will be profitable to others, please share. If you have any specific questions, please post it to the point - eg. "What does the Scripture say about attaining holiness?". That way it is simple and keeps us focussed. If you think that somebody's teaching is wrong and is doing you harm, please post just the teaching (after doing Point# 1). And if you think that it is important to mention the preacher's/author's name, just say it in the very first post and thereon focus only on the teaching and not the person (and dont put the person's name in the subject line).

Sorry for the tone. No offence meant at any one. We ALL want to get there and be with the Lord.

Angelin

Dear krautfrau,
With all due respect to your person, you have put the cart before the horse. You should have relayed your concerns directly to bro Zac himself instead of starting a discussion that won't move anyone further along the path of righteousness. Instead, it has all the potential of dividing the brethren and causing offense.
This may not be your intention but do you see how this could happen?

If after discussing with him, as Scripture guides, and you can't resolve your differences, then, you may involve the larger Body.

May all of Jesus' siblings become more like Him everyday. Amen.

Dear Krautfrau,

No matter what your question is, I don't think you will be the first person to ask him that. This man is doing God's service for over 40 years. He has seen people questioning him from all corners. I have not seen his doctrine change even a little because of these men.
My general advice to you is not to debate with his doctrine. He identifies such debates and quickly backs out of it. Which is wise as such debating people have very strong hold on their doctrine more than the word of God. If you have a genuine question he always entertains it.

Sree

This man is doing God's service for over 40 years. He has seen people questioning him from all corners. I have not seen his doctrine change even a little because of these men.

Krautfrau

I have emailed him with my questions but am a little dismayed to hear that he has not changed at all in 40 years.

To be honest I could not help but think the same thing as Krautfrau.

How long have you been knowing Zac that you can make a statement like that on his behalf?

God is always having us make adjustments to our way of thinking and doctrinal stances. I expect many more adjustments in the future.

How long have you been knowing Zac that you can make a statement like that on his behalf?

God is always having us make adjustments to our way of thinking and doctrinal stances. I expect many more adjustments in the future.

By Doctrine I meant the core of his teachings. He spoke against sin in all these years. And he is still. Nothing changed.

Please take effort to understand in what Context one is saying something. You tend to be giving more importance to individual words instead of the whole context.

No one will want to hear a preacher who keeps changing his doctrine. May be you are an exception.

I am not here defending Zac and neither I am I worthy of it. I know him only for past 3 years, but I have heard testimonies of elderly people who once challenged his doctrines and ended up finding the truth. Now they are serving God as a part of CFC church.

Please stop taking some words out of my post and post some new meaning. I do not have time to keep explaining your misquoted comments.