What I have against The Baptist Doctrine: From 1 Baptist 2 Another

Last week my Brother in Law was remarried in a cave and they had very strange wedding vows. Instead of acknowledging God, they acknowledge "Mother Nature!"

My wife noticed this and said what about God?

My brother in law got a little nervous... "well we wanted to make the vows so they wouldn't offend anyone".

My brother in law was raised in the southern baptist church. Gave his life to Christ and almost became a Baptist minister, until he found collage and became a lawyer instead. Yet he holds true to this one baptist doctrine...
Once saved, always saved!

If there is any thing that I am at war with it is this Doctrine that Baptist have in their faith & message. In the B.F&M, it states that if you hold different views keep them to yourself.

I do not hold to that doctrine. I believe that if you have been soundly saved then it is impossible for men or angels to make you fall from the faith. However, You can fall from the faith and your first love (Christ Jesus)by conforming to the world and living like devils.

God has called us to be in the world and not part of it.

Does this make me a bad Baptist?

Hello sonship, You may find this article helpful for your situation. It relates to marginal conversions in Africa, but I believe it has implications for conversions in the western church too:

http://www.wmausa.org/page.aspx?id=83837

Diane

sonsigns wrote:
If there is any thing that I am at war with it is this Doctrine that Baptist have in their faith & message.

When I used to go to the jail and ask if any of the women were saved, 99.9% ALWAYS raise their hand. The people who teach this obviously has never seen the other side of this ugly teaching. i.e. like trying to help someone who needs help but you can't get through to them because THEY'RE SAVED! (EDITED)

There is this one guy who goes around to all the schools here in our county and has a morning Bible program for the kids and his one main goal is to get the kids to say the 'sinners' prayer. I believe he thinks his job is done.

I asked him if he knew the names and number of any of the kids that got "saved" so he could check up on them and he just looked at me like I was crazy (edit: he did say one time that that was someone else's job). It might be different if every person who led someone to the Lord ACTUALLY discipled them for a year or more but no.

I still go to the jail but I don't ask them anymore, I just assume they are not saved or that they are backslid and need to what?? That's right.... repent!! LOL

God bless you,
Lisa

hi, there is no osas doctrine. this is what those who do not know what eternal security of the believer means. your security is in the hands of God and is very important. why do people argue that their God is not great enough to keep them . why do they argue that the covenant cutter, Jesus,is not enough as He forever makes intercession for us to His Father. what sin is greater then the shed blood of the Lamb?i have run into many people who have fallen into this trap and felt they had no more chance with God for they have fallen away.the problem is not eternal security; it is false security... if one truly gets saved and has a loving personal relationship with Jesus ,he is eternally secure.jimp

if one truly gets saved and has a loving personal relationship with Jesus ,he is eternally secure.jimp

If one truly get's saved... Who am I to say that someone is not saved? That is the work of the Holy Spirit only.

Let me see if I can say this more plainly.

I believe that man or angels or demons or satan himself can not make a believer fall from Gods Grace or Mercies.

However, I believe that the man or woman that professes to be saved... any man that claims to be in Christ, can himself pull away from God and there leave the Grace and mercies of God in Christ and become back sliden.

Therefore, if they stay in this back sliden state and die, do you believe that they will inherit eternal life?

Doesn't God call us to be Holy as he is Holy?

Can I honestly believe that if I decide to live like the world, giving no thought to God, that if I die in that state I will inherit the kingdom of God? Read Roman's chapter 6, particularly 12-23

This doctrine is mans license to sin, I do not think they will get away with it at the Judgement seat.

This is the doctrine that I am at war with...

thats why its called persavernce of the saints

becasue he who is born of god keeps himself
and the evil one does not touch him 1john5 ;18

a truly born againg christan ,does not fall away, into apostacy

he who is born of god does not sin for gods seed remain in him and he can not sin 1 john 3;9

who ever abide in christ does not sin
who ever sins has neither seen him or knowen him,,1 john 3;6

who ever falls into apostacy ,alife of sin and seems to have lost there salvation ,has neither seen him,, not even once ,,nor has he ever knowen him in the contex of a true relationship ,based on the regenration of the new birth

hi, this doctrine gives us the license to sin... someone loves me so much that even though i deserve a sentence to an eternity in hell and while i was a sinner died for me and forgave me gives me a license to love Him more. do you sin because your husband or wife trusts you and has demonstrated great love for you or do you respect him or her and love them .license to sin is sooo stupid when on the cross Jesus looked down the ages and saw me and loved me so that sin is forever conquered in my life for i trust in His covenant keeping power.if you would do a study on covenant you will better understand. mephibosheth hated david and feared him ,yet because of covenant david honored this man and gave him his inheritance and allowed him to eat at the kings table.jimp

Thanks for those scriptures And a hearty Amen.

I am not mad @anyone or even @ my denomination, I just really do not like "the once saved always saved" doctrine.
It seems many friends and family members use it as a trump card to do what they want and sin without repentance.

I do not believe that the Baptist threw this doctrine into their faith and message to be used in this manner. With that said it is a hard doctrine to understand and one that I can not find in the scriptures.

The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in loving kindness and truth; who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no
means leave the guilty unpunished.

I don't believe when the Baptist faith & message was written that they included the "once saved, always saved," doctrine to mean what many friends and family believe that they can live like the devil and the world.

This I do not understand and can not find in the scriptures.
I live in Missouri, so Show Me...

Thanks for standing with me on this doctrine. I will pray for your jail ministry and that you will touch many lives for the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Keep up the good and faithful work.

Your Brother in Christ,
William

yea im with you brother ,,i realy hate the doctrine ,osas,,,,,,,,,,,and believe it or not from what i understand about brother jims back round ,he also does not believe in once saved always saved to sin ,,,,,being close to lenard ravenhill as he said he was ,,lenard believed that a christan can lose there salvation ,,which is obviously not the doctrine i believe in , but ithink most of us that are active in the form are againsts ,the once saved alawys saved to continue in sin doctrine

paul washer is famous for preaching againsts that doctrine when conbined with the sinners prayer , as people combine it nomaly,, it rips the power of regenration out of the gosple ,watering it down ,into a muddy cup of sweet herasy,, that goes down sweet,but has no vital spiritual vitamines or mineral ,needed for a healty rebirth ,and growth in christ

yep my father uses it as a licence to sin also

from what i understand ,which isnt much

the doctrine mutaited from the pesaverence of the saints ,which is not a excuse to sin but a licence to examine your self to see weather you realy are in the faith ,,
to the popular heracy of once saved allways saved

which is the ticket to contine in sin
sad

Thank you for standing with me on this subject. As I had stated before, I do not think that the early Baptist added this doctrine to their faith & message to be used in such a manner. At least I hope not.

I am researching where this doctrine may have come from... I have not had much luck. Any information will be greatly appreciated.

Your Brother and servant in Christ Jesus,
William

P.S. I have just started to listen to John Piper. As a matter of fact I am looking over his web site and his churches web site as well. I like what I am hearing from this dear Brother.

blunt but i would agree in christ jim

john piper is a verry humble saint , sermon index has many of his sermons

from what i under stand ,which isnt much

the reformed faith believed in the persarevence of the saint doctrine men like spurgen , calvin , john bunyan, piper ,washer ,edwards, whitfield ,,,,men like

reformed baptised like spurgen taught this

but im thinking hypacalvinists ,,were probaly believing in once saved allways saved verry early in the piece

,but how it moved in to the arminian baptise belife system is is beoned me ,im not sure it has

so hypa calvinism would be to blame as an influnce regarding todays vervion of once saved always saved ,in my limated opinion

Just finished reading the article "A Review of Christian Conversion In an African Context", I found the article some what intimidating, because I know nothing about the African religion or even about Christian beliefs in African tradition.

Yet I read on and found it intriguing in the different aspects of conversion for the African and how they mixed their Christian beliefs with their traditional superstitions.

I can throw a lot of judgement on this subject as stated in the article, however, the Holy Spirit is pulling me to my chamber to intercede for the brothers and sisters in Africa.

As in my case of the once saved always saved doctrine, some of this may play into this subject yet, I do not think so.

We will see what God will show me on the subject.

Thanks for the great article it has open my eye's to the culture of the African Christian.

Your brother in Christ Jesus,
William

hi,the bible teaches us clearly ...be sure your sins will find you out...it also teaches about walking in the Spiit and in the flesh.when Jesus conquered sin and death on the cross it allowed us to have eternal zoe life in the spirit.when we sin in the flesh we pay for these sins in the flesh.if you drink and live a sinful life you will have job problems, family and financial problems.if you overeat you will wind up with joint problems and heart trouble. i have seen people backslide for a few weeks and get fired ,loose their children, jailed ,become homeless and a few extras.but Jesus said ,niether do I condemn you ...go and sin no more.His blood either payed the price or it did not.if it was up to you to live a perfect life ,He did not need to die for you. if you are guilty of one sin then you are a sinner.be careful , His grace is sufficient for you.jimp

are you saying once saved allways saved ,weather you live a life stile of sin or not it makes ne difference

if that what you are saying ,i can say lenared raven hill would rebuke you for false teaching ,regardless of how long you were friends with him jim

jim i noticed you didnt use any scripture in its oridginal contex to valadate you word

jesus also said repent or perish
that is the contex of him saying go and sin no more

nether does he condem those who have true repentance

begins with a changed mind ,and leds to a changed life
and a hatred for sin ,,,,

his grace is not sufficient for those who will not repent and carry there own cross ,and denie them selfs and there carnal desires

but for those who do the will of my father which is in heaven ,not all who say lord lord will enter into the kindom of heaven

idont think any one in this thred is pushing the sinless perfection doctrine jim

just growing in holness ,with out which no one will see the lord

just the doctrine that a good tree will not produce bad fruit
and vica versea,

a bad tree cannot produce good fruit

if christs in us the hope of glory is a reality in us
if we are born again ,gods seed is in us and we will not produces a life slile of bad fruit

the apostal said he who sins is of the devil

if you are living like the devil it is becasue you are not of god

i dont know jim are you advocating a lifeslile of practicing sin with no repentence

if the son sets you free you will be free indeed

he died to set us free from the power of sin over our lives

if we live a life of slavery to sin it is becase we are dead in our sins ,,it doesnt matter if we profess him as lord ,it doesnt matter if we hav had spiritual experance and extacys ,,christs has hade us free from the law of sin and death ,and our life will bare the evedence of good fruit ,because god has transformd us into a good tree

and his seed remainth in us

hi,i do not worry about sin for it does not enter in my thought pattern. i am looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of my faith. during the cleansing period of preachers who fell;most were sin centered preachers who preached hard against those who sinned around them but lived a life riff with sin .a lot have repented and have admitted their error.Jesus said it when He said "depart from Me you workers of iniquity for I never knew you" Lens emphasis was on Jesus and walking in the Spirit and if you sin you have an advocate with the Father.keeping a personal love affair going with Jesus is my emphasis.....a man applied to be a river boat captain here in louisiana in the mississisppi river(these men take over ships that are to come into and up the river)he was asked if he knew where all the problems were in the river were and he answered with a resounding ,no. they said then why should we allow you a river pilot license. his answer was " caus i know where the channel is". my stand is that talking about sin has no power so my power is in Jesus who directs my steps as i follow Him.jimp preach Jesus...He has already won the victory over sin.

Jimp you are right to say Christ had victory over sin and true believers should believe this and rest in Him and His abudant grace, love and mercy. We are not neglect this knowledge when we do we have full confidence in Him. Having said this OSAS is a false doctrine that has many believers decieved into thinking they are in right standing with God and continue to willfully sin.

Jesus did indeed say narrow is the way that leads to eternal life and very few will find it. Grace is not a license to sin. Looking back to the OT only 8 were saved in the flood a very small number for all the earth.I am just giving an example of God's judgement (for the OT was written for our example) which many of us don't deem as important in our lives. We no longer have balance in our belief. When we tell a little lie here, or gossip a bit here,or are lusting after the opposite sex we deem these little sins and get comfortable because we did not act on them and then prayed Lord forgive me only to go and do the same again. My point is Jesus said if a man looks at a woman and lusts after her he has commited adultery in his heart, If you hate your brother you are a murderer. Note how higj the bar has been set for believers. Most significantly if you love Me you will obey my commandments

As we grow in grace and knowledge we will soon learn how much God hates sin it cost Him his beloved Son. It is this knowledge that creates a desire in true believers to abhorr sin and strive against it. Now the lukewarm believer will live after the flesh believing he is safe yet he is wretched naked and blind and of this one Jesus says repent ye therefore and buy from him eye salve that he may see orelse he will spew him out of his mouth and BLOT HIS NAME OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE

The bar is set so much higher for true believers. To whom much is given much more is required. We must strive against the fleshes tendecy to sin and by the spirit put to death the deeds of the body. We must strive against sin until death. Drawing our strength from above. Jesus would not have said go now and sin no more if He knew we could not do it hence He gave us the Holy Spirit to help our struggle.This is war the flesh lusts against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh. Walk in the spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. No adulterers, fornicators, sorcerers, drunkards, liars, idolaters etc will inherit the kingdom of heaven. We must live a life of repentance bearing fruit worthy of repentance for we shall all stand at judgement seat of Christ and give an account of our lives. He who is unjust, let him be unjust still, he who is filthy let him be filthy still, he who is righteous let him be righteous still, he who is holy let him be holy still........12 And behold I am coming quickly and my reward is with me to give EVERYONE according to his work Rev 22; 11-12

As in my case of the once saved always saved doctrine, some of this may play into this subject yet, I do not think so.

I am sorry, sonship, that you did not see any connection between the issue of marginal conversions in Africa, and this very issue in America. I have come to believe that the osas debate will remain irresolvable (and is resurfaces repetitively here, and you just spin in the same circle) There is never a clear agreement of the meaning and implications of conversion. You are just talking about different phenomena.

If you really wish to come to terms with this, I strongly suggest that - before you toss out what is an important God-given promise in Christian assurance - you look into the issue of marginal conversions. Many are writing about it these days, and God can lead you to sources if you ask him to. I merely posted what was at my fingertips, what I am using it in another context in my own ministry involvements. But really, there is an absolutely direct link between the spiritism in Africa and the worldliness in America. It is an issue of deeply rooted worldviews never being recognized or dislodged wherever marginal conversions are characteristic of the Christian practice.

I was a Baptist for many years, so your concerns are very real to me too.

May God bless your search,

Diane

hi, adam and eve were perfect and sinless and did not have any law to bother with except one small item.they had total freedom and dominion of the earth.they chose in perfect innocense to eat of that tree of the knowlege of good and evil and reject the tree of life.how are you, born with a sin nature in a wicked world filled with religeon and temptation everywhere you turn claim to live a life that is without sin so that you who began in grace are removed.Jesus is the last adam and He took the wrath of the Father on Himself at the cross for sin forever. if you will repent from control of your life and reckon yourself dead with Him and buried with Him so that Jesus is your life and your LOrd and Master you are eternally secure because it is not your life but His,and He is able.

Diane, for my benefit, can you define "marginal conversions in relation to salvation." I think I understand what this term defines, I'd just like to make sure I'm following on the same page.

define "marginal conversions in relation to salvation."

Likewise, conversions in our churches may not touch on any of the core values assumed from our own culture. And let’s admit, we are much more focused on behaviors than on the beliefs and values that drive behavior. And, let's admit, our evangelical salvation testimonies often leave a lot to be desired. They can be quite superficial.

I believe it can be hard to tell just how authentic a conversion is until one’s faith is put to the test. That’s why I think discussions about the theoretical certainty or guarantee of theoretical people's salvation is rather fruitless.

Even for sonship’s brother: The story of his life is not finished yet. It’s not time to make the final conclusion about his eternal destiny. Perhaps someday, his present life choices may be exactly what God uses to change his direction. Remember the Prodigal Son.

Diane

Hello Jimp,

you wrote:

"hi, there is no osas doctrine. this is what those who do not know what eternal security of the believer means. your security is in the hands of God and is very important. why do people argue that their God is not great enough to keep them . why do they argue that the covenant cutter, Jesus,is not enough as He forever makes intercession for us to His Father. what sin is greater then the shed blood of the Lamb?"

What would you say is the purpose of the warning passages in scripture?

russ

hi jim, your scripture quote is my point. instead of arguing for the power of sin in a so called christian i choose to argue not to spurn the Son of Godand not to profane the blood of the covenant by which we are santified so that we do not outrage the Spirit of grace. this is a problem and was in galatia where paul pointed out that the law was and is the leaven that leavens the whole lump and leaves grace powerless through unbelief in the finished work of Jesus as the only means of salvation. not of anything you do or maintain lest you boast.i have been around for over 70 years and i have never seen the righteous forsaken. i have seen a few backslide and be severely dealt with (reaping what they sowed)by God and repent and come back to Christ. the only ones that have not are those who went into religeous activity that replaced grace.jimp

it think you are right that is the direct contex of the verse

but it can probable be widend to include those who trampled the blood of the covernent ,by not doing the will of the father whom is in heaven even tho in the last day they will say lord lord ,did we not perform wonders in your name
those whom jesus mentioned ,, denined christ as apostates ,by professing him ,but having no repentence ,hence they neverr did the will of the father

being hipocreates ,

i dare say that those who jesus talked about when he said not everyone who calls me lord will enter into the kingdom of heaven but he who does the will of my father who is in heaven

many will say to me in the day did we not perfom wonders and your name and cast out demons in your name

i will say to them ,i never new you
you workers of iniquity
deprt from me into evalsting fire prepared for the devil and his angles

these sinned willfull after recing the knowlage of the truth
and wile they lived in repobation ,there no longer remained a scacrafice for sin ,,but and expectation ,of judgment ,that will devour the adversers

now im not saying i can tell who these people are in my generation ,,,but these are living with us today no doubt ,perforing signs ,and casting out demons

tho by their fruits you will no them ,if you get to no them well enough

I've been reading along this thread with interest. God gloriously saved me when I was 11 years old. I thank God that I wasn't taught OSAS by those who first introduced me to the gospel. I would probably have been as some that I have seen on this forum, inclined to want to defend it.

When I was but a teenager, I had many conversations with many Baptist fellow students. At that time in my life I believed that if a person believed OSAS he was certainly headed straight to the flames of hell. What brought me to that conclusion? The very concern that sonsigns is expressing in this post ... the FRUIT of that doctrine. Most of the Baptists that I went to school with lived like the devil, but affirmed that they were on their way to heaven. That was back in the 1970s and 80s ... it is even worse now.

Since that time I have come to realize that there really are some OSAS believers who are on their way to heaven. The old-time Baptists believed that if you are living a habitual life of sin then you never were saved in the first place. Paul Washer preaches that way, and I admire that Baptist preacher.

The sad reality that I have seen in north Louisiana is probably the sad reality all over the USA, and that is the fact that MOST people who believe OSAS take it for a license to sin. As one Baptist told me one time unashamedly: "I do my fawnicatin' but I aks de Lawd to forgive me". I am still shocked that those words came out of the mouth of an intelligent human being! Another horrible case that happened when I was young was that in a huge local Baptist church a very well known deacon who also taught young people got in financial trouble, put a gun inside his mouth and blew his brains out of the top of his head. At the funeral, with thousands of people there, that Baptist preacher proclaimed "if you don't think that ________ _______ is in heaven, something is wrong with your faith".

That Baptist preacher's faith is in another gospel because God's word clearly states: 1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

The old-time Baptists would have wept and said: "all this time we thought that our brother _________ was really saved, but now we realize that he was not", but this modern Baptist effectively (in the name of Christianity) told thousands that day that it is OK to go ahead and kill yourself if things get bad, Jesus is there waiting for you on the other side.

Paul himself was concerned that even after preaching Christ, he could become a reprobate:

1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Recently I read in our local paper that the Southern Baptist convention was discussing a name change. One of the facts that the article mentioned was that it is the largest denomination in the USA. From what I have seen of most Baptist's interpretation of OSAS, I cannot help but believe that the OSAS doctrine (and the way that the majority of Baptists have interpreted it) is one of the main reasons that our nation is in the moral decay that it is in. It is the largest and most popular denomination in the country, yet its failure to communicate a half-way correct version of that one doctrine has crippled Christianity in America. Many plain sensible sinners don't see any reason to become a Christian because most of the "Christians" that they know live no different than they do. They continue in sin thinking that grace will abound (Rom. 6:1-2). They only claim a fire insurance with a little repetition of a brief prayer.

Somehow the churches that believe and teach OSAS should examine the overall interpretation of it, and the FRUIT of it in its congregants. For the sake of Christianity in America, they should at least re-educate their millions who are SO deceived and let them realize (as Paul Washer does) that if you are living a life of habitual sin that you are continuing in, you are not really saved ... you are on your way to eternal damnation in the blazing flames of hell, and the only hope for you is to TRULY REPENT of your sins and turn away from all sin.

2Co 13:5 Examine and test and evaluate your own selves to see whether you are holding to your faith and showing the proper fruits of it. Test and prove yourselves [[1] not Christ]. Do you not yourselves realize and know [thoroughly by an ever-increasing experience] that Jesus Christ is in you--unless you are [counterfeits] disapproved on trial and rejected? [Amplified Bible]

hi, that is why we people in south louisiana claim you as yankees who live north of alec for we are all perfect like you down here.why do people argue for law and judgement and against grace and mercy? Jesus said He came not to condemn the world but to save those who call on His name. rahab the harlot was in the lineage of Jesus. we sometimes judge things before there time.He said "i will never leave you or forsake you" when He said depart from Me , you workers of iniquity,i NEVERknew you.false security is the problem for when a preacher invites you to come to the altar,he is inviting you to come and die for altars are places of total sacrifice.this is the problem with evangelist who tell sad emotional stories or make hell hot. if you are coming to get a get out of hell free card or because you are afraid or because you want to join in the happening, you are going to remain lost as that feller who is asked for forgivness before he goes to sin.jimp salvation is in knowing Jesus and Him knowing you;intimate personal relationship that produces a new creation.you in Christ and Christ in you...the hope of glory.

I had been a Christian for many years before I actually found out that there were a bunch of Christians who believed the OSAS doctrine, and I was STUNNED! This is not what I had believed, as I understood the teachings of Jesus and His disciples.

So many times Jesus warns about hell! - He speaks of the lake of fire, of hell MANY times. And mostly when He is preaching it is to His disciples, to His followers - not the unsaved, unbelievers. Please take the time to read John 15:1-8 VERY carefully. First He says that HE is the vine. Then He tells us believers that we are the branches. That means we ARE IN the vine! You can be sure that if we are not born again we are not "in the vine". We are receiving life from the roots and trunk, which is is Him. From Him we receive the "nutrients" to bring forth much fruit. That is from our abiding in Him. Can we abide in Him if we are NOT born again? However! - He says that if we do not ABIDE IN HIM, if we do not bring forth much fruit, the vinedresser (Jesus) will CUT US OFF, we will then wither because we no longer attached to the Vine, are no longer abiding in Him, and we will be gathered, cast into the fire and burnt! Now, give much thought to what Paul says in Romans 11:13-26. He is talking about Israel being "cut off" - the natural branches, and us (the Gentiles) being grafted in, but take careful note of verses 20 and 22.....'Do not be haughty, but FEAR. For if God did not spare the natural branches, HE MAY NOT SPARE YOU EITHER. Therefore consider the goodness AND the severity of God; on those who FELL, severity; but toward you, goodness, IF YOU CONTINUE in His goodness. Otherwise you also WILL BE CUT OFF." I have accented parts of these verses simply to bring to your attention that this is a serious matter. How often we take scripture that encourages us, scripture that reveals God's great GOODNESS and MERCY, uplifting scripture that makes us feel good.... but HATING to stop and consider that He IS a righteous, holy and JUST GOD, who HATES sin so much, that HE gave HIMSELF to cleanse us from our filthy mess and restore us to right relationship with Him.....but that we must CONTINUE to be cleansed, CONTINUE to repent, CONTINUE in righteousness, CONTINUE striving against sin, as Paul admonishes us. God FORBID that we should continue in sin! God says, "Be holy as I am holy!" How can we have relationship with Holy God when our lives are continuing in sin that we THINK has been covered by the blood without our repentance? Adam also walked and talked with God - but FELL. God did not cover his sin, but exposed it - Adam tried to hide it just like we do. "Oh, God won't mind a little bit of this and that...!"

In Paul's first letter to Timothy he urges Timothy to flee ungodliness, pursue righteousness, FIGHT the GOOD FIGHT of faith to lay hold on eternal life - that he KEEP this commandment WITHOUT SPOT, BLAMELESS, for He is coming back for a bride, "that is that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish." (Eph.5:27)

6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light [exposing and dealing with sin!], we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. (1 John 1:6-10) There is no cleansing without repentance! There IS a promise of forgiveness IF we confess our sins.

Jesus in Matthew 24 spoke of His return. In the next chapter (25)He gives HIS DISCIPLES grave warnings. Once again He talks about US! The virgins prepared for the wedding (the church) What did He say to the 5 foolish virgins who did not keep their lamps filled and trimmed? - "I don't know you!" He WARNS - "WATCH therefore; for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming." Why would He warn His followers to WATCH if there was to be NO danger of them entering in? - That is SUCH a graphic illustration....as is the next. Who is entrusted with His goods? - HIS SERVANTS - US! What happened to the unprofitable servant?(v30)"And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Oh, there are many more illustrations.......

Let me just finish by bringing to your attention Jesus' admonition to the CHURCH of Laodicea in Rev.3:14-21. He IS talking to the Church, not to a bunch of unbelievers - people who are NOT born again, but to His church in a place called Laodicea who have BECOME luke-warm - stagnant. Just like the church in America today. Did you know that stagnant water is very toxic, that is why animals steer clear of drinking it. It has stopped running, and stinks. This is what the LORD Himself says:
14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,

‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I WILL VOMIT YOU OUT OF MY MOUTH. 17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments [spotless], that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, THAT YOU MAY SEE. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

22 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’” (Rev.3:14-22)

Oh, no, once saved is NOT always saved! "Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, LEST WE DRIFT AWAY. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, 3 HOW SHALL WE ESCAPE IF WE NEGLECT SO GREAT A SALVATION, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, (Heb.2:1-3 Accents again mine for your attention.)

I believe we have TRULY LOST the FEAR of God! YES He is a God of indescribable love....but He is HOLY, He is JUST, He is RIGHTEOUS, He is PURE, He is ALSO a God of wrath against ALL unrighteousness and filthy sin upon which He CANNOT look. Repentance is ongoing. Cleansing is ongoing. Forgiveness is ongoing.....we do not enter through the Gate INTO eternal life, but onto the path that LEADS to eternal life. May the Holy Spirit truly open our eyes to the truth, the WHOLE truth of Who He Is. His Word is there for ALL of us to read, if we will ask the LORD for hearts and minds to receive the Truth. The truth is God's Word, not this doctrine or that, following the teachings of this man and that....but you have One Teacher, the LORD Jesus Christ. Amen.

Hello Krispy you wrote:

"2) Not all Baptists teach this. (especially southern Baptists which primarily teach Semi-Pelagianism... as do most evangelical churches today)"

Could you expound further giving examples of what you consider to be semi-pelagian in their doctrine?

One more question: in your view what are the warning passages in scripture for?

Russ

hi clarebare

i think you will find the parrable of the vine that jesus spoke ,was spoken in the contex of israle and the jews who were allways conciderd conected to god in an special way , not the born againg christan

it is in relations to old testament parable of the vine

as gentiles who are to be grafted in , one can taste of the sap of the vine ,the heavenly gift but if the graft does not take as we no in reality not all grafts take properly to the stem of the plant and do not grow properly and bare fruit these are allways cut of to make room for more grafts ,, thse who are cut of and fall away in to apostace are not true bornagain branch christan

as one of our brothers krispy said ,the letter of johns states

they went out from us

becasue they were not of us

if they had been of us they would have continued with us

but they went out from us that they

might be made manifest ,they were never with us

they went out from christ

because they werer not of christ

if they had been of god they would have continued with god

the book of acts has a special verse also showing ,gods soveren degree to save those ,in the boat with paul ,it was sure promise from god to save every soul

but later a warning was added

but the warning did not dimish or take away from the decree spoken by god but acted like a rod ,to led and gard the men so they would stay in the boat and the prophecy would be fulfilled that none would be lost

warnings act as the rod to gard the elect,,so that jesus prophetic word ,come to pass ,, and to casue the unregenrate to repent

this is the will god ,,that all whom the father shall give me ,i should lose none ,,but raise him up in the last day

my sheep hear my voice
and they follow me
and i know them
and i give to them eturnal life
and none of them shall perish
they do not follow the voice of strangers

blessing to all my brothers and sisters

isarel and the jews being the branches them gathering there sorce of life was from christ he was the true vine ,any of those who did not find life giving sap from the true vine were broken of and cast aways

he did warn those to watch and those that did proved them selfs to be deciple , those that did not watch were not were not true deciples

you need to remember that the churches were filled with weat and tares so all warnings went out too both types of people

To all the saints,

BE ENCOURAGED!!!

John 6:37-39 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Heb 10:39 But we are not of [the ones] shrinking back to destruction, but of [the ones having] faith to [the] preserving of [the] soul.

Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back to perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

To answer in part, the following query;

...what are the warning passages in scripture for?

I offer the following:

The Scriptures have brought certain marks not only to test, but also to comfort God's people. But in order to keep them tremblingly alive to the fear of being deceived; in order to set up an effectual beacon lest their vessel should run upon the rocks, the blessed Spirit has revealed such passages as we find in the sixth and tenth chapters of the Hebrews. They seem set up by the Spirit of God as a lighthouse at the entrance of a harbor. Is it not so naturally? Some shoal or sand-bank often lies near the entrance of a port, which the mariner has to guard against. How is he guarded? A light-house is erected on or near the spot, which warns him of the shoal. Now I look on the sixth and tenth chapters of the Epistle to the Hebrews as two light-houses standing near the entrance of the harbor of eternal safety. And their language is, "Beware of this shoal! Take care of that sand-bank! There are gifts without grace; there is profession without possession; there is form without power; there is a name to live while the soul is dead."

The shoal naturally often lies at the very entrance of a harbor—and as the ship makes for the port, the sandbank lies in her very course; but when the harbor is neared, the friendly beacon not only warns her of the shoal, but also points out the safe passage into the haven. And so spiritually, from these two chapters many of God's people have seen what shoals lie in the way, and have, perhaps, before they were warned off, come near enough to see the shipwrecked vessels. The gallant barks that sailed from the same port with themselves they have seen wrecked on the rocks, the freight lost, and the dead bodies and broken fragments floating on the waves.

But these never looked for the lighthouse, nor saw the bank; they were intoxicated, or fast asleep; they were sure of going to heaven; and on they went, reckless and thoughtless, until the vessel struck on the shoal, and every hand on board perished. These dreadful warnings and solemn admonitions seem to me so written that they may scrape, so to speak, as nearly as possible the quick of a man's flesh. And they appear couched in language of purposed ambiguity that they may be trying passages; no, the very beauty and efficacy of them, and the real good to be wrought by them, is in their ambiguity, so that the people of God may take a more solemn warning by them, and may cry unto the Lord more earnestly that they may not be deceived.

Then it is not the poor, desponding children of God who are tried by these passages, that have reason to fear them; their being thus tried shows that their conscience is tender in God's fear, and that they are "the earth which drinks in the rain that comes often upon it, and bringing forth herbs fit for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God;" and that they are not that "which bears thorns and briers, which is rejected, and is near unto cursing, whose end is to be burned." And thus, these very fears and suspicions, by which many of God's people are exercised, causing strong cries unto the Lord, that he would teach, guide, and lead them, are so many blessed marks that they are not graceless persons, but partakers of the grace of God, and at the same time prove, "that he who has begun a good work in them" will carry it on, and "will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ," and bring them into the eternal enjoyment of God, that they may see him for themselves, and not another. - Philpot

Dear saints,

Won't you please listen! Go to the following link.

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=71707143854

brother Krispy, then why makes statements like that when you know it will spark further dialogue....

Russ

hi, who said i believe in osas? i believe in the eternal security of the BELIEVER.jimp

hi, we are saved by grace thru faith. biblical faith is hearing a word from God personally and receiving it and believing it and OBEYING it.if you are saved you are walking in the Spirit and not in the flesh and by walking in the Spirit than you are walking in obedience.jimp of course you fail...that is why you need a redeemer and Someone to make intercession for you.jimp john 3:16 God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son wo whosoever believe into (eis) Him should have eternal life.

hi, then he was no longer a believer.
it is (eternal security of the BELIEVER)jimp

I believe in the insecurity of the unbeliever.

would that be eturnal insecurity

hi, you said unbeliever so they are condemned already.

Let me put a slightly different thought out there for consideration-

Let's say we have a man that makes a profession of faith in Christ. Obviously we can not see into his heart. However, from all appearances he truly repented of his sin, believed the Gospel, and has walked with good and growing spiritual fruit for several years. He now has a testimony in his community born out by his daily example of being a wonderful Godly man.

One day he engages in sin and it starts spiraling into more. Within 3 months he is back living in total sin as bad or worse as he did before he made a "profession of faith, repented, and believed". After 3 more months he is living in open sin.

Was that man actually ever "saved"? He did appear to repent, believe the Gospel, publicly confessed Jesus as savior, and lived a life of bearing wonderful fruit and love for years.

The Calvinist will spend a great deal of time trying to prove that the man was never really saved or born again in the first place. The Arminian will say that he may not have been saved...although his fruit says otherwise. However the Arminian will also say it is possible that he was saved and for some reason determined he would no longer follow God.

Here is what blows me away- BOTH OF THEM AGREE THAT THE MAN IS NOW HEADED FOR HELL!

The Calvinist argues that the man never had salvation... the Arminian says he may not have... but he may have and has now forsaken his first love. They then often argue for hours and hours over this particular point.

DOES IT MATTER IN THE LEAST! If anywhere near the effort was made to reach, or restore, the man as there is to prove a theological position of Calvinism or Arminianism then he would come to, or back to, the faith.

Just endeavor to get the man right with God. Whether he had salvation and lost it or whether he never had it makes no difference except to a person who would rather argue than reach the world and restore those who have fallen.

We are so easily turned aside to arguments that will bear no fruit. Reach the lost, restore the fallen, those things matter far more than trying to convince someone to agree with out theological bent on a topic that has scriptures that "prove" both sides. That is why there is disagreement... both sides of this can be clearly "proven" by scripture. There is ample evidence on all sides..... and while the "churchy" folks argue over it people remain disconnected from God... .. and the world laughs at us. We are then shocked and wonder why they think the church is intolerant , irrelevant, and they want nothing to do with it. The devil rarely needs to attack us ... we seem perfectly capable of destroying our credibility by our own prejudices and pride without his efforts.

Good word, Solomon.

And I believe if you are walking in Christ, you are secure.

For those who once were and are not now walking in Christ, we have our marching orders.

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

The love of many will wax cold as iniquity abounds and they shall be offended, but he that endures unto the end, the same shall be saved. (Mt 24).

We should be helping each other endure, not trying to figure out who is saved or not. One thing for sure: Our doctrines will not save us! Only Christ will. He that hath the Son hath life and he that hath not the Son hath not life. (1 John)

Satan divides and conquers and we help him.

Pilgrim

Krispy you wrote:

"Because the truth is be declared, brother... not debated."

So now declare the truth that backs up your statements and answer the below.

2) Not all Baptists teach this. (especially southern Baptists which primarily teach Semi-Pelagianism... as do most evangelical churches today)

Could you expound further giving examples of what you consider to be semi-pelagian in their doctrine?

One more question: in your view what are the warning passages in scripture for?

Russ

solomon,, i think you might be representing cavivists wrongly ,and maby even arminians

with your example calvivists say it is verry posable that the man is not saved , but not allways

if he has not denied his confesion and is still broken over his sins wile he he sins ,,,it is verry posable he is a bornagaing christian

and as far as i know arminians hold to that as well

but as i was say ,that would be according to the one example that you just gave in your post

there are other examples of sin in so called christans ,and calvinists would treat that examples as different

brother you are puting all calvinists ,and arminians in your own littel box you made

we shouldent do that with god we say
so we shouldnt do that with gods children

blessings brother

Is this what you are talking about, Krispy? ...

http://carm.org/semi-pelagianism

Krispy the following are the 6 tenants of Pelagianism and for one to be considered Semi-Pelagian, they would have to hold to 1 or more:

1. Even if Adam had not sinned, he would have died.
2. Adam’s sin harmed only himself, not the human race.
3. Children just born are in the same state as Adam before his fall.
4. The whole human race neither dies through Adam’s sin or death, nor rises again through the resurrection of Christ.
5. The (Mosaic Law) is as good a guide to heaven as the Gospel.
6. Even before the advent of Christ there were men who were without sin.

Now based on your following statement:" 2) Not all Baptists teach this. (especially southern Baptists which primarily teach Semi-Pelagianism... as do most evangelical churches today)", can you demonstrate how southern baptist and/or evangelicals adhere to the above, one, a couple, or all of the points.

Russ

Thanks brothergary,
I have done a little research on this and haven't found once saved always saved in 1680's england baptist faith & message.
Although that was the first faith & message that I have found.

hi, why i think security is important... i have ministered to the dregs of new orleans on and off for 40 years and have seen many a sick man or woman give their lives to christ go back to living on the streets which are sometimes safer than a shelter. it is hard for a drunk or drug addict or mentally chalenged person in the same atmosphere to change very much but some(very few have). if God isn't saving them while we are feeding and clothing and spending many hours ministering then what is the use.if they had your lives and homes and support and jobs and mental ability they would have a greater opportunity.jimp

Amen. I believe what you just said whole heatedly. However, it is a southern baptist church that I have attended actually was born again and baptized there that teach and believe "the once saved always saved doctrine".

Also, how do you feel about the great falling away of the church?

...well, every time I consider this issue my conclusion has to be the same: The essential matter is who saves us, ("before the foundation of the earth"). If it is His work it can't be "undone", of course.

A youth pastor explained to me once, characterizing congregations, that to many their salvation like an insurance policy. "Now I'm saved, and can continue on living as I wish...".

Nothing could be further from the Gospel.

True hunger for Christ's Life (the very work of the Holy Spirit), is the surest evidence of having been drawn to Christ. Anything else is just sad religion.

This Life is imparted (as we learn to forsake our "flesh") and not gained by will or works. See Rom 9:16.

So the question of whether one can lose his/her salvation is, really, a non-issue... The real matter is whether they have ever really been brought into His Life.

Thank you...

That was an even better testimony than what I have given with my brother-in-law.

Thanks again;)

I was just asked by a friend about Hebrews 6:4-6. John Bunyan had the same struggle in his testimony - for YEARS! But if you read it carefully, the writer of Hebrews is talking about a BORN AGAIN, Spirit Filled BELIEVER.....I quoted her from The Living Bible which makes it a bit clearer to understand.....

"There is no use trying to bring you back to the Lord AGAIN if you have once understood the Good News and tasted for yourself the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, and know how good the Word of God is, and felt the mighty powers of the world to come, and then have TURNED AGAINST GOD. You cannot bring yourself to repent again if you have nailed the Son of God to the cross again, by rejecting Him, holding Him up to mocking and public shame." I think this is REALLY good. But it also acts as a warning to those who believe that once saved is always saved, because nobody who is not TRULY SAVED and not born again cannot experience the things that is described in these verses! And it is obvious that if he makes a very BAD choice to trample underfoot the blood of Jesus, he surely is going to be rejected by God.

God has promised His children that He will NEVER leave us nor forsake us. But we can surely turn our backs on Him, and ALL that He has done for us, and spit on Him and He is not going to allow that person to be with Him for all eternity as our Holy God hates and cannot look on sin. And we have the choice even after we have received the gift of Salvation, to willfully sin and return to our old ways "like a dog returning to its vomit" (as the Bible says.)

the problem with saying it is talking about bornagain christans ,,is that it contradicts ,,for he who is born of god keeps him self and the evil one cannot touch ,as john wrote in his letter

Clarebear says,

"God has promised His children that He will NEVER leave us nor forsake us. But we can surely turn our backs on Him, and ALL that He has done for us, and spit on Him and He is not going to allow that person to be with Him for all eternity as our Holy God hates and cannot look on sin. And we have the choice even after we have received the gift of Salvation, to willfully sin and return to our old ways "like a dog returning to its vomit" (as the Bible says.)

God says,

"And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me." Jeremiah 32:40

"and I have made for them a covenant age-during, in that I turn not back from after them for My doing them good, and My fear I put in their heart, so as not to turn aside from me" Jeremiah 32:40

It is not only true that, "He will NEVER leave us nor forsake us", but also that He, "will put His fear in ourr hearts, that we shall not depart from Him."

It is all His doing. He saves He keeps. It is His Faithfulness to us. It is His promise. It is His Everlasting Love. It is to the praise of His Glorious Grace.

"I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me." — Jer 32:40

As the fear of God springs up in a believing soul, and is maintained and kept alive by the influences which come out of Christ as a covenant Head, it produces, as its effects, an abiding in him. We cannot depart from him, because the fear of God is in our heart. It is therefore called "a fountain of life to depart from the snares of death." If a fountain of life, it must be fed out of him who is the life; and as it departs from the snares of death, it cleaves more fully and closely to him as these snares are broken to pieces and left behind.

If we examine the movements of godly fear in our hearts, we shall see that all its tendencies are toward life and the Source of life; toward hatred of sin and love of holiness; toward a desire after the enjoyment of heavenly realities, and a deadness to the things of time and sense; toward a knowledge of Christ in the manifestation of himself, and a longing to live more to his praise, to walk more in his footsteps, and to be more conformed to his suffering image.

Now, as none of these things can be produced but by union with Christ and abiding in him, we see how the fear of God helps forward and is needful to this abiding. For directly that the fear of God burns low in the soul, there is a gradual withdrawing from, and a sensible declining of this abiding in Christ. - Philpot

Note: The living bible is more a paraphrased commentary than a translation of the Scripture from one language to another.

"It is written, man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

And in regard to the partial quote from 2 Peter,""like a dog returning to its vomit", nowhere does our Father in Heaven ever refer to His dearly beloved children as dogs.

Thank you Krispy, your definition is tied to point 4. I'm in agreement with you, I thought you were trying to go down the road of labeling noncalvinists semi-pelagians.... Russ

Krispy, I hope in the future you actually arrive at your conclusions by actually reading the sources of Arminian Theology( pre and post nicene, etc), instead what your favorite calvinists have to say about it. If you do you won't arrive at your current conclusions.

Russ

Krispy you make statements and do little to actually support them.

hi, isn't it strange that when all the big preachers fell into discovered carnal living that they were all armenian.i am amazed that anyone would argue against the love and mercy and grace of God.Jesus demonstrated these vurtues to all the sinners He met and said if you have seen me you have seen the Father.jimp

Hey Jimp
"hi, isn't it strange that when all the big preachers fell into discovered carnal living that they were all armenian"

And who would these big preachers be that fell that held to arminianism?

you must not remember the 80s when there were more preachers on 60 minutes than politicians.

Jimp, are you saying these preachers held to your definition of arminianism or the historical account of arminianism?

your starting to sound like Krispy

hi, leave me alone in my dilussion and krispy also and try to offer wisdom of your own. i knew some of these men and they were not grace men at that time. i live at jimmy swaggart ministries andam tiring of this . i have had a wife chased by one of these men.your head knowlege without any life experience is not going to lower my faith in a BIG God who is able to keep me by His grace and mercy.jimp

Hi Jimp, all I'm saying is that swaggart and the others didn't hold to historic arminianism, but rather a form of semi-pelagianism.

Hi,

I haven't really posted much before, but I've been reading this thread with interest. I thought the following teaching by David Pawson might be helpful. This is the first part of a teaching called "Once Saved Always Saved?" which is excellent. Once you've listened to Part 1, follow the links for the remaining parts of the teaching.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFEjt6fV1Xk&feature=BFa&list=PLD0F25A630B899B44&lf=results_main

I started really digging into the Word and seeking God about all this,

This may sound strange, but after seeing this topic go by hundreds of times (It just seems like it) I admit, I appreciate seeing how people work through this tough issue. For me, with each trip “around the mountain”, something new comes to my mind.

Here’s what’s on my mind: The real challenge for us is in discovering the right questions and abandoning the wrong (fruitless) questions. Here’s a better question: “What are the implications of salvation?” I’m convinced Ron Bailey’s book, “The Better Covenant” (which is being promoted here) can be a real treasure – or rather, show us more clearly to the REAL treasure – the broad-scoped gift we have in Christ.

When I first “got saved” in the Baptist church at 17 yo, I had no idea what it really implied. I had never been a Baptist. I just trusted what I was being taught - that this is how you obey God. And I was eager to obey God. In my prayer, I thanked Jesus for forgiving my sins, although I couldn’t think of any sins that needed forgiving. I had been a good person. Furthermore, by “getting saved” I could join the choir and have a place to belong. Frankly, I would not have endured the rejection of not “belonging” – not being allowed to participate in the church’s life -ex communion, etc. I could not have endured honesty - not yet. For me “getting saved” as shallow as it was, was important for my wellbeing as an insecure teen. It gave me a positive peer group – so vital to teens. It was God's provision.

Of course, my “salvation” did not hold me up when trials came – because I was still self-reliant. But unlike those who eventually fall back to the secular life they always knew, I tried to fall back to the church. (the church was really my savior). But it was a much a straw foundation as the world is. There’s really no difference, is there?

So was I then unsaved? That is not the question to ask. God’s Spirit blows where it wills and we can’t see it blowing. God’s Spirit worked in my life over a long course of time, and led me away from my reliance on the church, and more solidly into HIS promises.

A few years ago I confessed my spiritual journey to the missionary lady who had “led me to the Lord” as a youth. I spoke to her about the possibility of a superficial conversion. She said that my own journey over the years proved that I belonged to him. God took the little I could offer him initially, but he did not abandon me. He led me along all those years.

The point: It is best to trust God for our own calling and his provisions for us. Questioning God's capability to preserve us is not an expression of faith. We must leave people’s final destiny to God, and get on with our own business. We are called to love our neighbor. Redeemed or not in the end, our neighbor is deserving of our expressions of love. That's the debt we owe him.

Diane

Sorry ,

With draw comment.

Forgive me.

elizabeth

Krispy you wrote
"As for Paul calling calvinist or arminians "carnal", I think perhaps you need to invest in a dictionary. So far you didnt know what Semi-Palageniaism is, and now you apparently dont understand what "carnal" is."

When and where did I state that?

Krispy when I stated " Krispy you make statements and do little to actually support them"

I was speaking to this current post, not in regards to every post you have ever made. The reason I questioned you is because you were making statements and didn't support them. And you still have not supported your semi-pelagian comments.

" Let's just say that I hold to what Paul clearly taught in Ephesians and Romans, as well as all his other books. I believe in what Jesus taught, and what we see demonstrated all thru the Old Test."

Me too election is corporate nations in OC, His Church in the NC, Ephesians backs up the Romans emphasizing "in Him, in Christ, etc" and union in Christ, with His church being the object of His predestination.

Brother I was not attacking you, I read your post and questioned it. Thats all, no agenda. All I'm saying is if you make statements like you did, back them up, if you don't have time, don't state them.

I wish the best for you, Russ

dear jim, the scripture you are using for carnal is about following a person or a peronnality. what we are talking about is two minsets of understanding the Word. one emphasizes the power of God (calvin)the other the power of man.is God soveriegn?was His blood enough?did He woo you? is He able to keep you?did He love you from before the foundations of the earth?just these simple questions bring tears into my eyes because of His love for me and my mindset is to love and worship Him (normal) not run off and offend Him with sin (abnormal)which makes no sense whatsoever to me.jimp

brother russ with all due respect

i think you should not expect kirispy to back up the statments he has made in this thredd,,if you are not willing to back up your own statments ,,example,,,,you made a stament about swaggart with out any references to show or back you up ,,,,,,brother that is a contradiction

bless you

yea i think jimp is right

the contex in the verses in corinthians is one of

creating division ,by elavating paul and appolas up the the standared of christ

this is why paul said im glad i baptised no except crispus
unless you would have said i baptises in my own name ,cotex ,own athority

i sincerly think , holding to slighty diferent donctrines ,as what is inderstood as the teaching of calvinism ,and the teaching of ariminaism ,,, is not the same in any way , to the situation in the corinthian church ,,,,

we can safe assume ,that paul taught exacly what appolas taught ,, this division ,was not about doctrinal variations
, but somthing much worse
blessings

brother what goes on in those debates ,is no different to what you are doing to krissry and me ,,,,,you are pushing your doctrinal opinion , and assuming that we are wrong ,, it is no different ,and brother im saying that with a broken and contrite spirit ,,if that is a strait face

in this fourm we are bless by the blessed one to be able to love and felloship ,with out harsh division over these doctrinal matters ,with most of the active members ,,,,,,,
unity and diverity , in the comunity of christ

brother as i said ,in my last post ,,apolas and paul would have undoubtable taught the same doctrine , ,what we have is a compleatly different situation ,regarging interpratation ,of scripture

bless you to brother

The superficiality of our culture has permeated into the mind-set of the Western church. The "cheap grace" that Bonhoeffer warned about has fostered an "easy-believism" that has allowed a superficial assent to Christianity that requires no real change or sacrifice. In a culture that advocates "safe sex," we have similarly developed a "safe" form of Christianized religion wherein no one is responsible for his actions. There is no doubt that God hates this farcical masquerade of role-playing, for it is totally alien to the dynamic reality of the living Lord Jesus manifesting His life in receptive Christian people.

Hundreds of thousands of people have responded to the evangelistic invitations of Billy Graham and other evangelists or preachers. They have joined various churches, attending catechism and new member classes where they learned the basic facts of Christian doctrine. Baptized and confirmed, they became "voting members" involved in their churches. They serve on committees, in leadership positions, and even behind the pulpit, but their faithful, loyal and dedicated "service" is often but a sterile form of "churchianity" that is devoid of the Christ-life that constitutes Christianity.

How can genuine Christians be content with going through the motions of ritualistic religion? How can they be content with cultural accommodation that adapts to the world's ways under the pretext of "relevance" and seeking to "be all things to all people" (I Cor. 9:22)? How can they be content with periodic "highs" of emotional experience that are inspiring, exciting, and "moving"? How can they be content to have their ears tickled with inspirational pabulum and the panacea of peace that proclaims, "All is well?"

Many who call themselves "Christians" seem to be oblivious to and unconcerned about the fact that the character of their behavior is selfishly misrepresentative of Jesus Christ, and fails to manifest the "fruit of the Spirit" (Gal. 5:22,23). Jesus clearly indicated that a person's spiritual condition would be evidenced by the "fruit" of his behavior (Matt. 7:16-23). Since a Christian is a "Christ-one" in whom the Spirit of Christ dwells (Rom. 8:9), if the character of Christ is not being evidenced in a person's life then it is legitimate to question whether that individual is a Christian despite his profession of such. It is not possible to be a nominal Christian "in name only," or a depository Christian who claims to have received Christ into his heart but has no evident desire for intimacy with the living Lord Jesus and no apparent growth in character expression. Those who seem to be content with a false hope that they have a ticket to heaven, or a pass to wave at St. Peter when they get to the pearly gates of Paradise must be confronted with the fact that it is possible to be a professor of Christ who is not a possessor of Christ. Christian salvation is not a static transaction whereupon one "got saved" at a particular point in time by engaging in prescribed activities. Salvation involves being "made safe" from the dysfunction of satanically abused humanity, in order to function as God intended as the expressive vessel of divine character. Genuine Christianity must not adapt itself to the games that the world plays with names, labels, and positions. Christianity is the dynamic reality of the living Christ within us functioning as Savior, continuing to save us from the dominations of sinful patterns in our lives as He overcomes such by His character.

Christian literature throughout the ages has consistently explained that the superficiality of easy-believism does not constitute genuine Christianity. A.W. Pink cautioned,

"Do not suppose that the Gospel is magnified or God glorified by going to the worldlings and telling them that they may be saved at this moment by simply 'accepting Christ' as their Savior, while they are wedded to their idols, and their hearts are still in love with sin. If I do so, I tell them a lie, pervert the gospel, insult Christ, and turn the grace of God into lasciviousness."

The missionary statesman, Norman P. Grubb, wrote,

"The only infallible, inexorable consequence of a sinner receiving salvation is not always made plain by Gospel preachers. It is often easy to get the impression that it is certainly necessary to have our sins forgiven, to be delivered from the wrath to come, to receive an assured entrance into heaven; but to submit to the total control of Christ is something which may and should follow, but does not necessarily do so; and even that it is possible to enjoy the former without the latter. Nothing could be more false or absurd. There is no salvation conceivable, possible or actual, other than God's way in infinite grace of destroying the false form of life in which man lives, and replacing it by the true. The false form of life is that which has "self" in the centre; the true form of life is that which has God at its centre - Christ living in me."

Though some who call themselves "Christians" seem to be oblivious to the misrepresentations of their lives, there are others who suspect there is "something more" to the Christian life than they have experienced. In the words of the song made popular by Peggy Lee, they are asking, "Is that all there is?" Sometimes they meet a Christian person who has a vital and vibrant personal relationship with the living Lord Jesus, and they make comments like: "Jesus seems so real to you. It's as if you believe that Jesus really talks to you, and walks with you, day by day." They ask questions like: "Do you really think that God is personally orchestrating your life? How can you be so sure that Jesus lives in you, and that God is working in your life?" The Spirit of Christ is often working in these individuals causing them to hunger and thirst for the fullness of what He wants to be and do in their lives.

James Fowler - Christ at Work in You
"The Continuiing Function of the Living Lord Jesus"

agree

hi, so what you are saying is all these people with this easy believism aren't as great as i am who