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Obama; son of Islam?....Raymond Ibrahim..[ well done ]

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sermonindex

Many in the media are indignant with Reverend Franklin Graham, head of the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association. Invited on "Morning Joe" last Tuesday to discuss Christian persecution, the hosts turned the focus to interrogating Graham on whether he thought President Barack Obama was Christian or not.

Though the Reverend concluded that Obama "has said he's a Christian, so I just have to assume that he is," he appeared skeptical, suggesting Obama's policies disagree with Christian principles, and thus earning the full ire of much of the fourth estate.

Intrinsically trivial on many levels, this incident nevertheless brings several important points to the fore.
First, Graham was absolutely right to say that, "under Islamic law, the Muslim world sees Barack Obama as a Muslim, as a son of Islam": according to Sharia, if one's father is Muslim, one automatically becomes Muslim.

In fact, the reason behind last week's church attack in Egypt, when thousands of Muslims tried to torch a church and kill its pastor, is that a Christian girl fled her father after he converted to Islam: she did not want to be Muslim, and was rumored to be hiding in the church.
(This would not be the first time in recent months that churches were attacked on similar rumors.)

Because of this automatic passage of Islam from father to son—with the death penalty for those seeking to apostatize, the condemned Iranian pastor being just the most visible example—and because Obama attended a madrassa (a Muslim religious school) during his youth in Indonesia, many Muslims are convinced that Obama is a "secret" Muslim.

In a Forbes article, "My Muslim President Obama: Why members of the faith see him as one of the flock," writer Asma Gull Hasan elaborates:

[S]ince Election Day, I have been part of more and more conversations with Muslims in which it was either offhandedly agreed that Obama is Muslim or enthusiastically blurted out. In commenting on our new president, "I have to support my fellow Muslim brother," would slip out of my mouth before I had a chance to think twice.

"Well, I know he's not really Muslim," I would quickly add. But if the person I was talking to was Muslim, they would say, "yes he is." …. Most of the Muslims I know (me included) can't seem to accept that Obama is not Muslim. Of the few Muslims I polled who said that Obama is not Muslim, even they conceded that he had ties to Islam….

The rationalistic, Western side of me knows that Obama has denied being Muslim, that his father was non-practicing, that he doesn't attend a mosque. Many Muslims simply say back, "my father's not a strict Muslim either, and I haven't been to a mosque in years." Obama even told The New York Times he could recite the adhan, the Islamic call to prayer, which the vast majority of Muslims, I would guess, do not know well enough to recite. [Read the entire article, which is more eye-opening than the author probably intended.]

Another reason why many Muslims believe Obama is Muslim (a reason Ms. Hasan's article understandably omits) is that, under the Islamic doctrine of taqiyya, Muslims are permitted—in certain contexts even encouraged—to deny being Muslim, if so doing secures them or Islam an advantage.

Accordingly, Islamic history is full of stories of Muslims denying and publicly cursing Islam, even pretending to be Christian, whenever it was strategic.
In other words, if an American president was a secret Muslim, and if he was lying about it, and even if he was secretly working to subvert the U.S. to Islam's advantage —not only would that be justified by Islamic doctrines of loyalty and deception, but it would have ample precedents, stretching back to the dawn of Islam.

Such as when Muhammad commanded a convert from an adversarial tribe to conceal his new Muslim identity and go back to his tribe—which he cajoled with a perfidious "You are my stock and my family, the dearest of men to me"—only to betray them to Islam's invading armies.


Graham further upset "progressive" sensitivities by saying "All I know is under Obama, President Obama, the Muslims of the world, he seems to be more concerned about them than the Christians that are being murdered in the Muslim countries," adding that "Islam has gotten a free pass under Obama."


Yet who can deny this? Whether by expunging any reference to Islam in U.S. security documents, or enabling Muslim persecution of Christians, or ordering NASA to make Muslims "feel good" about themselves, or bowing to the anti-Christian Saudi king—the President has made his partiality for Islam very clear: Islam is undoubtedly getting a "free pass" under Obama.


What Franklin Graham's critics fail to understand is that, when it comes to Obama's religious identity, the Reverend probably has Jesus' dictum in mind: "By their fruits shall ye know them"—that is, pro-Islamic actions speak louder than Christian words.

Raymond Ibrahim is a Shillman Fellow at the David Horowitz Freedom Center and an Associate Fellow at the Middle East Forum.

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This article is very penetrating and would certainly explain a lot if the Presidents actions. Even is not admitted publically, Mr. Obama's heart certainly leans toward Islam. Or so it would appear.

The disturbing thing is the American voter may have to choose between a Mormon or a Moslem for President. Both of which are undesirable. At the moment Jesus is looking better. I agree with the psalmist who said better to trust in the Lord than princes.

Blaine Scogin

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This article is very disturbing. I believe the christian right is far more dangerous than islam or any liberal could ever be. A white republican claiming to be a christian, with no fruit to suport it, gets full allegiance from americas sick christendom. Not the black democrat though, we have more "discernment" than to fall for that.

Here is something I wrote a while back.

My American evangelical friends. Have you prayed for president Obama at all? You know, like you use to pray for president Bush on Wednesday nights at steeple house? Have you only grumbled about him instead, maybe even suggested that he is the antichrist, yet never prayed for him. For his marriage, for his family, for his leadership, that he would come to a saving knowledge of faith in Christ Jesus? Such actions seem to be more fitting for a pharisee then a christian.

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. ~1 Timothy 2:1-6

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"What Franklin Graham's critics fail to understand is that, when it comes to Obama's religious identity, the Reverend probably has Jesus' dictum in mind: "By their fruits shall ye know them"—that is, pro-Islamic actions speak louder than Christian words."

For sure - we all know that Jesus was a greedy, conservative, white middle class republican that started wars for oil and blew up abortion clinics while pursuing the american dream. I learned much 'discernment' in my evangelical church and know the fruit that Jesus taught about... and black democrat aint it. Can I get an amen?

What we need is a good moral, white, bible believing roman catholic in office to bring this country back to 'god'.

-Jim

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Brother I agree with the thrust of your article. I would suggest you refraim from the racial labels. But to answer your question, I do pray for President Obama's salvation. As a matter of fact President Obama stands a greater chance of coming to faith in Christ than Rick Santoriium or Mitt Romney. Both of the republican front runners come out of religious systems that are satanic inspired and demonically controlled. One is a hard core Catholic. The other a hard core Mormon. Both of these are hard to reach with the gospel.

Even if President Obama is a closet Moslem, he may be more open to the gospel than Santoriom.or Romney. So yes, let us pray for the President's salvation.

Blaine Scogin

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Brother please clarify your post. Are you being sourcastic or serious? I will say upfront that racism is a sin. Like I asked, are you being cynical or serious?

Blaine Scogin.

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Lysa

martyr wrote:
Brother please clarify your post. Are you being sourcastic or serious? I will say upfront that racism is a sin. Like I asked, are you being cynical or serious?

Brother,

He's being sarcastic (as only a democrat can be!!) LOLOL

God bless,
Lisa

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You mean there are such in the forum.......chuckle.......

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I am not a democrat or republican. I long to see Gods people freed from these world systems. To answer blaine, I am serious and sarcastic. Jesus saved me from evangelical christianity and the so called christian right. Before that I believed all of those subtle lies. I live work and minister in one of the most racially divided areas of the country. There is rampant racism in the christian right. There is also rampant idolatry in evangelicalism that thinks Jesus is a republican. That is why so many will vote for a white republican but not a black democrat.. Even if neither bares fruit as a true believer we will still accept the one. To not mention the race issue would be to let my conscience down. Blaine, you know the answer is in prayer and not in men. May Jesus bless you as you pray for our president. Jim

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Brother your answer was very clear and concise. I do agree and stand with you. Prayer to Jesus is our only answer. Lord bless you much brother

Blaine.

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iceman9

jimdied2sin - Are you serious?

The Scriptures say that "you will know them by their fruit." Matthew 7:16

The fruit of your writing shows you clearly are a super left leaning liberal. You are throwing race around in your comments like a mad man.

It appears you have a major issue with race. Repent!

I don't care what color a candidate is I look at the issues, you apparently do not. I will vote for the candidate that best represents the foundation of my faith from the Scriptures.

You should try that too.

Your type of liberalism is much more dangerous to our country that any Christian has ever been jim.

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"The fruit of your writing shows you clearly are a super left leaning liberal."

You are judging from the flesh. I am not a liberal or conservative.

"You are throwing race around in your comments like a mad man."

Because I believe there is a racial issue involved in this topic.

"It appears you have a major issue with race. Repent!"

Wow - a false call to repentance, seriously iceman. Shall I repent of what the Lord has shown me? I have no issue with race, I fellowship with romanian brethren, caucasian brethren, african american brethren. Maybe I am striking at a deep issue in your heart that you have with race?

"Your type of liberalism is much more dangerous to our country that any Christian has ever been jim."

This is such a lie. Here are some previous thoughts I have shared that show that. Do you serve the kingdom of america or the kingdom of God, the christian right or the church of the first born whos names are written in heaven? I am sorry for being unclear and contributing to whatever it is that drove you to write such misguided lies.

http://fleebabylon.wordpress.com/2010/09/25/liberal-and-conservative/

http://fleebabylon.wordpress.com/2010/08/19/a-false-reformation-called-emergent/

in Christ -Jim

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"Brother,

He's being sarcastic (as only a democrat can be!!) LOLOL

God bless,
Lisa "

Sister-

Do you see how we are programmed to pick things the Lord never intended for us. Since I'm not a republican, I must be a democrat? Since I'm not an armenian I must be a calvinist? The world gives us these things to choose from - even its religion.. baptist, nazarine, methodist, etc. No thanks - none of the above! Jesus is my king and His is my kingdom. I think that is a good mind to have brethren, that which was given from heaven and not false choices given from men.

God bless you sister - Jim

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Lysa

jimdied2sin wrote:
Do you see how we are programmed to pick things the Lord never intended for us. Since I'm not a republican, I must be a democrat? Since I'm not an armenian I must be a calvinist? The world gives us these things to choose from - even its religion.. baptist, nazarine, methodist, etc. No thanks - none of the above! Jesus is my king and His is my kingdom. I think that is a good mind to have brethren, that which was given from heaven and not false choices given from men.

God bless you sister - Jim


I am sorry that I offended you; my heart was not to make fun of your political standing. I should have stopped with the explanation, “He’s being sarcastic,” and left it at that. Because if only you knew how many times I’ve been called a “liberal Christian” here in East TN because I don’t agree that often with the “religious right” of the Republican Party. I lean heavily toward the Libertarian Party. Anyway, please forgive me.

God bless you,
Lisa

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"I am sorry that I offended you; my heart was not to make fun of your political standing"

You didnt offend me at all dear sister! Plus, I can see how what I wrote could be misread. This is actually the first time I have been suspected of being a liberal! Our unity is in Christ and His gospel, not in a political philosophy. God bless you Lysa.

Jim

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I went to the David Horowitz Freedom Center site and what I saw is the same spirit that fueled the crusades.

-Jim

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I see where Jim is coming from and agree with him. We are called to be citizens of the heavenly kingdom and not of a political territory. Our respidibility is to obey the governing authorities provided that such laws fo not conflict with the gospel.

The mandate for the believer is to preach the gospel not elect a republican or tea party or democratic president. Our destination is a heavenly city. We do not worship the U S Constitution or the Declaration of Independence. We worship Jesus. We do not pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth. We pledge our allegiance to Jesus. To pledge allegaiance to the flag is idolitry. To worship the United States of America is idolitry.

Their is a new idolitry emerging among evangelicals. It is worship of America, worship of the flag, worship of the Constitution, worship of Israel, and so on. Our loyalty is not to Caesar but to Christ himself. Yet a number of Christians are forgetting this.

I stand with the Annabaptidt who saw their loyalty to Christ and not to the state. They would obey the laws of the state but would not be involved with the activities of the state. The early Christians would obey Caesar but not worship him.

It would have been unthinkable to see the Roman eagle which represented the power of Caesar standing in a first century church. Yet we have the American flag in front of most American protestant churches. Again a new heresy is emerging. The worship of America.

Just as the Chineese have the Three Self Patriotic Movement Church with government backing, we have the 501c3 government backed church. For the mostt part this is the church that worships America.

Again our citizenship is above in. the kingdom of heaven. We have another King, one called Jesus. Our mandate is to preach his gospel.

Blaine Scogin

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savedtoserve

I stand with the Anabaptists who saw their loyalty to Christ and not to the state. They would obey the laws of the state but would not be involved with the activities of the state. The early Christians would obey Caesar but not worship him.

It would have been unthinkable to see the Roman eagle which represented the power of Caesar standing in a first century church. Yet we have the American flag in front of most American protestant churches. Again a new heresy is emerging. The worship of America.

Just as the Chineese have the Three Self Patriotic Movement Church with government backing, we have the 501c3 government backed church. For the most part this is the church that worships America.

Again our citizenship is above in. the kingdom of heaven. We have another King, one called Jesus. Our mandate is to preach his gospel.

Amen, martyr! Praise the Lord.

savedtoserve

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ccchhhrrriiisss

Hi Brother Jim,

I understand where you are coming from in terms of your perspective -- even if I might disagree with the full extent of it. If anything, this is where I have to disagree with your claim that you are "impartial" in all of this:


"This article is very disturbing. I believe THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT IS FAR MORE DANGEROUS than islam or any liberal could ever be. A white republican claiming to be a christian, with no fruit to suport it, gets full allegiance from americas sick christendom. Not the black democrat though, we have more "discernment" than to fall for that."

If there was impartiality here, you would have lumped them all -- Democrats or Republican elected representatives, Muslims, Mormons and Catholics -- into one single "dangerous" group. However, you insisted that the "Christian right" (which is a broadly painted term -- that you would be quickly lumped together with by most of the people that I live around given your faith and views on matters like abortion, homosexuality, etc...) is "FAR MORE DANGEROUS THAN ISLAM OR ANY LIBERAL COULD EVER BE."

I think that your sense of urgency may be resultant of the notion that you see many Christians meander into politics or a particular legislative persuasion over another (whether candidate or party). Now, I suppose that there are some individuals who may get "full allegiance" because they are a "white Republican" with certain individuals. However, that is far from the "rule" or even the "norm."

There are many believers who do vote...with a prayerful, clear conscience...who aren't "bowing their knees" or "declaring allegiance" to a candidate, party, or system of man. They are simply voicing an opinion -- through a vote -- about which current candidate (or even party platform) is best at this particular time.

Over time, I have noticed that those who are most concerned about participation in voting, politics, etc... are most vocal when it comes to those who trend toward the political "right." Some of the individuals who loudly opposed President Bush or even openly questioned his eternal status were a little less vocal (or even silent) during the last election.

Again, this could be because they feel that there is greater danger in supporting "angels of light" over the more obvious immorality of a party that supports abortion, homosexual activism, or other causes that molest the consciences (in regard to issues of "justice," "righteousness" vs. "unrighteousness") of certain believers.

Still, I agree with your notion that we must pray for elected leaders. Like many, I disagree with certain policies of President Obama. To a lesser extent, I disagreed with certain policies of President Bush. However, my wife and I have remembered BOTH of these men in our prayers. We try to make no public assumptions about their respective eternal conditions -- regardless of what might be "apparent" reasons to do so. In fact, I pray that the Lord would do in these men what I so desperately want the Lord to do in my own life.

However, I do fear that we meander beyond mere politics by linking it to some sort of "evil" simply because a believer will (gasp) feel a need to voice support for one man over another in an election.

Moreover, I do think that we must be careful about this election season. This forum is not about politics...even if it is so easy to link such matters into what we feel to be the current condition of the Church or as a cause behind why Christ-centered revival is sorely lacking in the Church. There are many reasons why the Church is asleep (or worse), but even if you believe that ANY participation in the process is wrong, it is merely a "symptom" of that slumbered or deathly condition and not an actual "cause."

May the Lord turn our eyes upon Jesus. May we follow Him wholeheartedly...and without being led astray by the concerns of this world as we follow Him with a clear conscience.

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Chris-

God bless you brother, sorry if I came off as condemning those who vote. That is not my heart. I am not strongly political or anti-political. My comments were based on the fact that there is a lot of thinly disguised hatred towards our current (seemingly) lost president while previous (seemingly) lost republican presidents get a free pass. A lot of rhetoric about Obama, but little love and prayer for him.

You said: "If anything, this is where I have to disagree with your claim that you are "impartial" in all of this"

Luke 12:47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Those who profess to be Gods party while exploiting wage earners, teaching them to hate others, and sending Gods children to kill arabs overseas to secure american interests will have the greater damnation. Muslims and the typical liberal are just lost people following the agenda that lost people follow. I am not sticking up for them at all, but according to scripture it appears that they will be beaten only with a few stripes while the christian right will be beaten with many.

Also, because I have been taken captive by the christian right in the past and have repented of it I am more outspoken about that. I have never been a muslim or a liberal though. Sort of like how others on SI who came out of bad legalistic background are the most outspoken against legalism. Even if going a little overboard sometime.


You said: "I think that your sense of urgency may be resultant of the notion that you see many Christians meander into politics or a particular legislative persuasion over another"

Brother, that is not it. It is something much bigger. Pledging allegiance to king ceaser over king Jesus. Striking hands of unity with the baals (glen beck, bill o'rielly, etc) to keep america a "christian" nation. I have nothing against a believer voting republican or democrat if they think they must choose the lesser of two evils. Though I don't join in the voting I do not condemn anyone who does. I am talking about something much bigger that substitutes the gospel of america for the gospel of the kingdom.

You said: "There are many believers who do vote...with a prayerful, clear conscience...who aren't "bowing their knees" or "declaring allegiance" to a candidate, party, or system of man."

I know - sorry if I made it sound that I felt otherwise!

You said: "Over time, I have noticed that those who are most concerned about participation in voting, politics, etc... are most vocal when it comes to those who trend toward the political "right." Some of the individuals who loudly opposed President Bush or even openly questioned his eternal status were a little less vocal (or even silent) during the last election. "

Then we must travel completely different circles. Most church people I know are taken captive by the christian right.

You said: "Still, I agree with your notion that we must pray for elected leaders. Like many, I disagree with certain policies of President Obama. To a lesser extent, I disagreed with certain policies of President Bush. However, my wife and I have remembered BOTH of these men in our prayers... May the Lord turn our eyes upon Jesus. May we follow Him wholeheartedly...and without being led astray by the concerns of this world as we follow Him with a clear conscience."

Amen brother - God bless you and your wife in Christ Jesus.

Jim

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I suppose the issue of Obama being a Muslim or not upsets me in the issue as to being an enemy to the church in Jihad, and that he is subtly dismantling every vestige of American power, treasure, and morality. I believe that he is.

He testifies of is very early, formative years, when his mind was forming in the madrassas; the radical Muslim educational systems, as "LEARNING HOW TO PRAY".....I heard him say this. Add in his ideas of the anti-Christ radical left.....Saul Alinski-ism....a "progressive Marxist "nibble your way to takeover" philosophy.

He was the first President to have a Muslim pray in his Presidency;
http://www.haaretz.com/news/muslim-chosen-to-speak-at-obama-inaugural-prayer-allegedly-tied-to-hamas-1.268359

and Rick Warren pray in the name of the Muslim Jesus...[an Earthly prophet ] ISA.....similar to the Mormon Jesus.

He was the only President to bow in subservient honor to a Muslim leader, in his bowing gestures to the Saudi kings, and to greet them in the Allah Praise greeting: 'Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatu Allah"...about Allah being the honored God of gods.

The first thing that one should know and clearly understand about Islam is what the word ‘Islam” itself means. The Arabic word “Islam” means the submission or surrender of one’s will to the only true God, known in Arabic as “Allah”.

One who submits his will to God is termed in Arabic a “Muslim”. Obama's submissive etiquette in obeisance was set to identify himself as one; a devout and orderly MUSLIM, along with the unmistakable greeting...similar to a Christian Greeting " Jesus is Lord!" Hallelujah!"

So....what may you think? could he really be Muslim?

God set Obama in our country as Judgment, and we deserve him, and more....as we soon will be diminished and destroyed. He is doing his part with both hands...he's a busy guy. Very sad. There also may be the strong possibility of choosing between a Mormon or a Muslim in this next election. Anti-Christ spirit...or anti-christ???

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you've gone too far, this is a terrible witness, delete it.

and tom, you should be ashamed of yourself, this is all just a terrible terrible witness, and i know all about your activity on other forums, forums that were closed down, because the saints who formed could not bear the terrible devouring.

this is all sinful.

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2 Corithians 5:20

We are therefore Christ's ambassafors, as though God were making his appeal through us.


In the U.S Foreign Service when one is stationed abroad in an American embassy these personnel are representing the interest of the United States in the country in which they are assinged. From the U S ambassador on down to the support staff the personnel are American citizens. They represent the interest of the United States, their home is the U S. Embassy staff realize their soljourn in the host country is temporary. Realizing at some point they will go back home. Another thing is they do not do involve themselves in the affairs of the host country. The embassy personnel are not citizens of that country but American citizens. They only represent the interest of the United States of America. To the host country.

Carrying this analogy into the spiritual realm we are citizens of a heavenly kingdom by virtue of the new birth (Jm 3:5, Ph 3:20). We have another king called Jesus whose kingdom is not of this world (Ac 17:7, Jn18:36). We are ambassadors of that kingdom (2 Cor 20). We represent the interest of our King (Oh 2:21). We are inviting others to become citizens of that kingdom (2 Cor 5:18-20). We obey the laws of the temporal kingdom and pray for temporal rulers, namely they know Jesus (Rom 13:1, 1 Tim..2:1-6). We do not involve ourselves in the affairs of this temporal kingdom ( 2 Tim 2:4). We realize our assignment in this temporal kingdom is short and we will be called home to our heavenly city (Heb 11:13-16).

Tragically the American church has forgotten her heavenly citizenship. She had gone native in the temporal kingdom. When believers forget their heavenly calling anf focus more on their political temporal citizenship the message of Jesus becomes blurred. Honestly some saints do look at Jesus as a white Anglo Saxon protestant. The agenda of some Christans is not the gospel but the Tea Party or Republican platform. They know far more conservative rhetoric than the truth of Christ.

Reflecting upon the question whether President Obama is a Moslem or not. The question should be does he know Jesus. If not let us pray he does come to saving faith in Jesus. For we are commanded ny scripture to do this.

Blaine Scogin

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ginnyrose

Whether one agrees with Tom's evaluation is not the issue. The issue is that we are seeing a serious erosion of a Christian mindset in America. Very few know the ten commandments. It used to be one can use a Biblical phrase or story to illustrate a point and it would be understood, but is this the case where you now live?

We read in the news about Christianity cozing up to Islam and telling them we all worship the same God. Where will this put those of us who believe otherwise? It will mean that not only will Muslims come after us, it will mean they will enjoy the benefit of the assistance of "Christians". Of course, that is nothing new - it did happen in during the Reformation period. The Catholics persecuted their distractors. Eventually when those gained political power they were worse in their persecution of those that disagreed with them then the Catholics ever were.

Some things are coming full circle - the players just have different names.

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onemite

Whatever is not of Christ, is disqualified, regardless of its appearance or form. Do any suppose that those who call themselves Christians but are not found IN CHRIST are better in Gods sight than those who call themselves by any other name?

"We have another king called Jesus whose kingdom is not of this world (Ac 17:7, Jn18:36). We are ambassadors of that kingdom (2 Cor 20). We represent the interest of our King (Oh 2:21). We are inviting others to become citizens of that kingdom (2 Cor 5:18-20). We obey the laws of the temporal kingdom and pray for temporal rulers, namely they know Jesus (Rom 13:1, 1 Tim..2:1-6). We do not involve ourselves in the affairs of this temporal kingdom ( 2 Tim 2:4). We realize our assignment in this temporal kingdom is short and we will be called home to our heavenly city (Heb 11:13-16).
Tragically the American church has forgotten her heavenly citizenship. She had gone native in the temporal kingdom. When believers forget their heavenly calling anf focus more on their political temporal citizenship the message of Jesus becomes blurred. Honestly some saints do look at Jesus as a white Anglo Saxon protestant. The agenda of some Christans is not the gospel but the Tea Party or Republican platform. They know far more conservative rhetoric than the truth of Christ.

Reflecting upon the question whether President Obama is a Moslem or not. The question should be does he know Jesus. If not let us pray he does come to saving faith in Jesus. For we are commanded ny scripture to do this."

AMEN! LET HIM WHO HAS AN EAR HEAR.

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Jer2

Just because we are citizens of heaven, I don't believe that we can close our eyes and ears to everything going on in society, or that we can wash our hands of responsibility toward our communities.

John the Baptist cried out to Herod about his sin and lost his life because of it. We have some God-given obligation to cry out against that which is dangerous and anti-Christ. Think of the "witness" of those churches in 1930's Germany that thought it wasn't their place to interfere with government matters. They remained separate from political things and gave silent assent to the holocaust happening just down the street. If we don't speak up about leaders who would enslave, increase murders through abortions, bring in ecumenicism or give equal status to Islam, then we are letting the world go to hell.

This cuts across any political party; however, President Obama has more grossly anti-God "czars" in his administration than anyone I have read of. One has promoted pedophilia; most seem to think abortions should be freely available; most believe in giving homosexuality status equal to God's idea of marriage; most believe that homosexuals should be able to father or mother children; most find opening an oil field to drilling more offensive than abortion; and so on.

As an aside to HezWelling, I was on a site with Tom that got closed down. The issue was that the man who ran the site put down the people on his forums en masse, and was called out about that by Tom and others, and asked to back down from what he'd said. It came as a shock to everyone when, instead of just saying that he'd gotten heated in the debate and he was sorry for the demeaning remarks, he shut down the whole forum. HE shut the site down to save having to apologize to his members.

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There has to be a context about speaking against injutice. The context has to be the gospel. If the gosoel of the kingdom, the gosoel of Jesus Christ does not define our speaking out then we are no better than the liberal. The left speak out on matters of poverty, racial injustice, the environment, etc. For the right wingers it immorality, homosexuality, abortion, etc. For the most part these are matters of injustice. But these are matters that stem from sinful hearts.

Our respisibility as citizens of a heavenly kingdom require a gospel approach. We nay speak out against unjust issues. But unless we speak a just gosoel to an unjust heart from which flow injustice then we are missing the mark.

Blaine Scogin

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Jer2

I agree that the context for a Christian is the gospel. I don't think I've said anything other than what you are saying here.

True Christianity has been the primary force that has taken up matters of poverty, racial injustice, stewardship of the earth, as well as homosexuality, murder, and so on. Where people live, speak, and follow the gospel of the kingdom, they impact all of society around them for what is good.

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onemite

I'm sure to be out of my league here. Please excuse me if I am ignorant on this subject, bt wasnt herod an Israelite?

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Sorry. Did not thouroughky read your post. I think we are aknowledging the same thing. For that I say Amen to your last post. Woukd that we woukd be as William Wiberforce who was converted under John Newton. He saw the evil of slavery oh his day and spoke out against it. On his death bed England repealed the slave trade. Truly a man impacted by the gospel if the kingdom.

Blaine

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Yes, Wilberforce is a fantastic example! He was a Member of Parliament and impacted all of the world through standing for his Christian beliefs.

Back to the subject--speaking about what is against God, as Tom has done, is not out of line for a Christian.

EDIT: I've always thought Herod Antipas was not Jewish, but can't find anything quickly on a web search to prove one way or the other.

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"Reflecting upon the question whether President Obama is a Moslem or not. The question should be does he know Jesus. If not let us pray he does come to saving faith in Jesus. For we are commanded ny scripture to do this."

Amen

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Brohter Tom said: "God set Obama in our country as Judgmet , and we deserve him, and more....as we soon will be diminished and destroyed. He is doing his part with both hands...he's a busy guy. Very sad. There also may be the strong possibility of choosing between a Mormon or a Muslim in this next election. Anti-Christ spirit...or anti-christ??? "

Tom - do you feel the same way about the republicans in office before him? Are you speaking as a prophet of God or as a republican?

In Christ -jim

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Compilation: Americas last call (Wilkerson, Conlon, Ravenhill, Reidhead)

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=15045&commentView=itemComments

"Gods only plan is through the preaching of His Gospel... Folks it's not through politics and everyone who is running around telling me that we are going to organize and legislate holiness - you don't know your bibles! God raises up annointed fearless prophets and preachers of His word to bring a nation or generation to its knees, or to harden their hearts before judgement comes." - David Wilkerson


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"Tom - do you feel the same way about the republicans in office before him? Are you speaking as a prophet of God or as a republican?"...jimdied2sin.

I am speaking as neither a prophet or a Republican; but as a brother on a great Christian forum, with just an opinion. I may, or not be particularly impassioned about a subject; but do try see things in God's heart.

I know we will probably never agree about this issue in the near future..and I refuse to strive about it, sensing your near anger that I would dare attack our current President. I am not attacking him, I am assessing him as I see the facts; my opinion.

I believe he is a Muslim/Marxist; despises Capitalism, and American Imperialism, as he sees it, and in that context he is tearing down every standard that would oppose his agenda.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuXxtg4M_z8

As far as honoring Republican Presidents in office before Obama..[ "Do you feel the same way?" ] ...I don't believe there has been a Christian President in America in this century, and certainly not in my lifetime...Truman was in office when I was born...but the major difference between all Presidents before Obama, is that they were FOR AMERICA!....not trying to tear her down while hating her as....Obama is.

I do not believe that it matters one whit whether a Republican wins this election, or Obama remains. America has slaughtered 57 million infant children or so; promoted vile immorality around the Earth, and has became a God-Hating Nation, rather than a God loving one.

Now, I will respond to you as a prophetic brother...since you asked. America will soon come to financial ruin, with millions of souls from the middle class homeless. America will be invaded by foreign armies that will dominate our air power,and destroy every military defense we have.

They will occupy America in numbers that are mind-boggling....and in the midst of that....America will possess a beautiful remnant that will shine as Jesus, with a true Apostolic company that will do exploits with amazing power in holiness, and maturity.

In this, by the Word of the Lord...I say, "Thus says the Lord."....so...you can take it jim, or leave it...I have no agenda...just my opinion....really.


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"sensing your near anger that I would dare attack our current President."

Sensing my anger that the visible church has been taken captive by the christian right and slanders the president but dosn't pray for him as commanded by scripture would be a better way to put it.

"I don't believe there has been a Christian President in America in this century, and certainly not in my lifetime"

Thank you brother for answering my question.

"I do not believe that it matters one whit whether a Republican wins this election, or Obama remains. America has slaughtered 57 million infant children or so; promoted vile immorality around the Earth, and has became a God-Hating Nation, rather than a God loving one."

Not to mention America exports it apostate christianity around the globe. I think that is worse then everything else combined.

"and in the midst of that....America will possess a beautiful remnant that will shine as Jesus, with a true Apostolic company that will do exploits with amazing power in holiness, and maturity."

We should be sensitive to the Spirit to prepare ourselves now and our children. The simpler we live, the more we deny ourselves, the more faith the more we are filled the Spirit, the easier it will be for us then and we will be able to minister and strengthen our brethren who were not as prepared.

I will only say that I lay the blame for this at the feet of americas christendom. It is a bigger curse to this country then every abortion clinic combined.

In Christ -jim

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Christinyou

Quote:

"""I believe he is a Muslim/Marxist; despises Capitalism, and American Imperialism, as he sees it, and in that context he is tearing down every standard that would oppose his agenda. """

I agree with you Tom, he also is a progresive socialist, and if he could get away with it he would turn the whole nation over to Islam. He is chipping away at our foundation a little at a time like the frog in water slowly brought to a boil and still won't get out of the pan until it is to late.

In Christ: Phillip

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"I agree with you Tom, he also is a progressive socialist, and if he could get away with it he would turn the whole nation over to Islam. He is chipping away at our foundation a little at a time like the frog in water slowly brought to a boil and still won't get out of the pan until it is to late."Christinyou...Phillip.

Will we ever "get out"?, before we are cooked? I don't think so. He is instituting LAW...embedding his dictates woven so deep into the fabric of American life that soon it will become impossible to root them out without great damage to other institutions.

The Obama health care MANDATE is a good example; it is National Socialism in a pure way, [ Once called NAZI-ism] where the citizens and businesses are forced to participate , or face stiff fines...and possibly prison.

He promised the gays to champion the sodomite agenda, and delivered, forcing the end of "Don't ask, Don't tell" in our once proud military, reducing our defense to embrace this humiliating doctrine.


On his first day in office, he nixed the development of 160 of the most elite stealth fighters ever conceived on Earth...? why? He now wants to reduce our Nuclear resources by 80%...Why? He wants to, and is currently, in the process of decimating our Navy, Army, and Air forces by another 80%....mini-armies.Why?

He has purposely spent us in oblivion, complicit with an owned Democratic Congress into a bottomless pit, [ along with other Presidents ]...where we now BORROW over 50% of our spending...Why not balance the budget and chip away? There is a reason.

He has a profound hatred for the Family, and especially the Christian Family...with his recent endeavors to force Abortion and contraceptives upon ALL hospitals and clinics, as a part of his hideous "health-care" agenda.

It is pure Socialism, mirroring satanic Red China's doctrines of total control...forced abortion...and the "legal" church...and the utter destruction of the illegal one..; US!.

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2.] continued from below:

"It is pure Socialism, mirroring satanic Red China's doctrines of total control...forced abortion...and the "legal" church...and the utter destruction of the illegal one..; US!."

There are many more facts that forcefully prove Obama's agenda mirrors that of the anti-Christ's, or is anti-christ in nature. Our children are mandated to learn Darwinism....which in foundation Natural selection is based...which morphs into an idea that man is animal..equivocated with evolved mud-worms...which in turn, molds all creation, and science, and social actions as but a random evolution that cries; "I am who I am!"...and "I must do as I will!" [ The satanic Bible's motto..]

Lesbian families and sodomite parents are just as natural as Abraham's and Sarah's, and all expression flowing out of this sanctioned rebellion then in turn is sanctified as normal, free, and natural. Light becomes darkness...darkness becomes light. Then, the worship in life....monsters like "Lady GaGa" become the Priests and Priestesses of Expression as to what we are, and relate morality as to what we DESIRE.

Then, we see the end fruit..where we as America are heading. Two innocent men stray into a city, where armed thug gangs await, to sodomize them to death, as a sanctioned sport that would satisfy their creature lusts; Just another night on the town. This of course, is Sodom, but Sodom is a spirit...stemming from the exact same permissive Socialism engulfing the world.

I believe that by this same spirit, the Old world was consumed.....Each man "Did as he willed", and this one and same anti-Christ spirit...turning men into animals...had consumed all. God witnessed generations of innocent beautiful children sucked into the vortex of extreme wickedness and these one and same beautiful innocent ones become dragons.

So...He ordained Noah...and today...Someone said, "But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be!"...Jesus

Obama is just a bit player in it all, but AMERICA HAS SINNED, WIPE THEIR MOUTHS, SAY ALL IS WELL..."GOD BLESS AMERICA!" ....BOTH ON THE LEFT AND RIGHT.

President Barak Hussein Obama is God's agent; he is what we deserve...and unless there come a National repentance to the roots of our bowels...Wrath is coming. As I have said; There is utter destruction coming....unless....and I see America giving God the finger...while at the same time breathing His Holy Name.

Below, is a link that has published a prophecy of mine, that more defines my thoughts...Respectfully...tom

http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2009/08/09/justice-and-glory/

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And so America will fall. Any empire has a short life span in the temporal realm. I said in an earlier post that our citizenship is in heaven. We are ambassadors of the heavenly king. President Obama is not the enemy. Certainly the antichrist spirit is. Our prayer is that he be free of that spirit be coming to Jesus.

We have got to stand against this idolitry of America. The American flag did not die for your sins and the Constitution will not bring you to Christ. Our focus must be on the cross of Christ.

It is better to trust in the Lord than in princes. Yet some are looking at Rick Santoriom as the savior instead of Jesus. I remind you that many evangelucals worshipped a man from Texas who was hailed as God's gift to America. Go back and look at this Republican President's record and tell me if things were better under him. After two ears, an ecomic down turn, and losing our liberties the record speaks for itself.

Saints your hope has to be in Jesus Christ. It is not America under judgement but the church. And we are the church. Look America is going to fall and that may be what God intends to deliver us from the idolitry of America. Just as God destroyed the Jewish temple in Jersukem in 70AD to deliver Israel from idolitry. I believe be us going to destroy or allow America to fall to deliver us from our idolitry, the worship of America.

Some if the posters are right. Right wing ideogy is just as dangerous as left wing ideology. It takes our focus off Jesus. Saints your eternal home is not America but heaven. Your king is Jesus not an earthly political leadr.

Blaine Scogin

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It is so important to understand that conservative and liberal american christianity are both forms of Constantinism. Mix this with some romantic notion that america is a 'christian' nation and is the equivalent of OT isreal and you end with a lot of heresy.

You have shared much unpopular truth Blaine.

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My brother, in these end times any who follow Jesus will be unpopular. For his truth will be unpopular. Do agree with your last pist, bro.

Blaine

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Just a few scriptures of how God feels about His people, Israel. How much the same for the ones that are called by His Son's Name.

Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Ex 22:25 If thou lend money to any of my people that is poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury.
Ex 34:9 And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us; for it is a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance.
Nu 21:2 And Israel vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou wilt indeed deliver this people into my hand, then I will utterly destroy their cities.
Ru 4:4 And I thought to advertise thee, saying, Buy it before the inhabitants, and before the elders of my people. If thou wilt redeem it, redeem it: but if thou wilt not redeem it, then tell me, that I may know: for there is none to redeem it beside thee; and I am after thee. And he said, I will redeem it.
2Ch 7:13 If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people;
2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Christ is our head and we must see the enemy for who he is, even if God is using the enemy to get Christ-ones, Christians to come to their senses and turn from their wicked ways, does not this Scripture pertain to the son's of God whom He has given to the Son, His Body the Church?

I see nothing our President has done giving glory to God or His Son. If we come together and pray, and seek His face what does God say He will do. Obama does not have a chance if we are one in His Son and ask for deliverance.

Is God not speaking to the Body of Christ the Church the same way God spoke to Moses? I hear Him do you?

Exodus 8:20-24 And the LORD said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh; lo, he cometh forth to the water; and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Let my people go, that they may serve me. Else, if thou wilt not let my people go, behold, I will send swarms of flies upon thee, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people, and into thy houses: and the houses of the Egyptians shall be full of swarms of flies, and also the ground whereon they are. And I will sever in that day the land of Goshen, in which my people dwell, that no swarms of flies shall be there; to the end thou mayest know that I am the LORD in the midst of the earth. And I will put a division between my people and thy people: to morrow shall this sign be. And the LORD did so; and there came a grievous swarm of flies into the house of Pharaoh, and into his servants' houses, and into all the land of Egypt: the land was corrupted by reason of the swarm of flies.

Are we not responsible as Moses was and stand for the Glory of God in Christ Jesus? As I said, "Obama does not have a chance". Unless he hears from God and obeys.

We are just as responsible to God as Moses was. "Stand fast therefore in the Liberty wherein Christ has set us free".

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Philippians 4:1 Therefore, my brethren dearly beloved and longed for, my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

We do have a responsibility to God. This is not politics, but a remembering of who God has made us in Christ Jesus our Lord, His brothers and sisters and son's of His Father.

Edit: Added, Are we going to be like Israel and spend 40 years in the desert until all who did not obey God parished?

In Christ: Phillip

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Christinyou

Matthew 12:18-21 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

Do we trust as servants of the Servant?

In Christ: Phillip

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