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The vileness of the saint

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It is regularly seen as a profane offense here to see oneself as vile in one’s own eyes. This has not been something that has been profane but rather something that has been regularly owned by saints of old when viewing themselves in the light of God.

Here are a couple of links and quotes on the subject to comfort those who see themselves in this way.

http://christianbookshelf.org/watson/the_beatitudes_an_exposition_of_matthew_51-12/4_blessed_are_the_poor.htm

“He that is vile in his own eyes is precious in God's eyes.” – Thomas Watson


http://www.newblehome.co.uk/manton/vol15/self-denial-signs.html

“[3.] When a man is vile in his own eyes, and reflecteth with most indignation upon his own sins. There are none that pass a severer doom than the children of God do upon themselves when they have sinned against God; they need no other judge than their own consciences to pass a sentence upon them. Men naturally are apt to favour themselves; they are slight in self-humiliation, and deep in censure of others. With indignation they reflect upon the sins of others, but with indulgence upon their own. As Judah, when it was told him, 'Tamar thy daughter hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. Judah said, bring her forth, and let her be burnt,' Gen.38.24. But when she showed him the tokens, and that he had defiled her, then he was calm enough. It is otherwise with God's children, no sins so odious to them as their own: 1 Tim. 1.15, 'Jesus Christ came to save sinners, of whom I am chief.' Oh, there is no such sinner in the world as I am, saith Paul. So Prov. 30.2, 'Surely I am more brutish than any man, and I have not the understanding of a man.' How could a godly man say so? It is the fruit of spiritual indignation. A godly man spends the most of his revenge and spiritual indignation upon himself. Oh, there cannot be a more brutish person than I have been, that have sinned against so many mercies, so many obligations, and so much light! These are not compliments, but they speak them with bitter feeling. Saith Chrysostom, They do not only speak it in humility, but in truth. They can but know the sins of others by guess and imagination, but they feel their own sins, they know them by sense. As in sorrow we are apt to say, There is none like mine. Why? Because we feel the gripes of our own pains. So the children of God, they feel how grievously they have sinned against God. Saith David, Ps. 73.23, 'I was as a beast before thee.' They know they have more mercies than others, and more obligations than others, therefore their offences seem to them to be more grievous. Well, if the heart be brought to this pass, that the heat of indignation is spent upon thy own sins, and these things be spoken not by rote and imitation, but out of deep sense and feeling, it is a comfortable sign that self is dethroned in thee.” - Thomas Manton

“You ought, therefore, to be so dead to such human affections as to wish as far as lies within you to be without the fellowship of men. Man draws nearer to God in proportion as he withdraws farther from all earthly comfort. And he ascends higher to God as he descends lower into himself and grows more vile in his own eyes. He who attributes any good to himself hinders God's grace from coming into his heart, for the grace of the Holy Spirit seeks always the humble heart.” - Thomas A Kempis

“Behold, I am vile” - Job

Upon a meeting of self and God in all His perfection, my question would be "How on earth can one not see oneself as vile?"


OJ

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Here are a few more:

Sermon 17 - The Circumcision of the Heart (Romans 2:29)
“I am, in the Second place, to mention some reflections that naturally arise from such an inquiry, as a plain rule whereby every man may judge of himself, whether he be of the world or of God. And, First, it is clear from what has been said, that no man has a title to the praise of God, unless his heart is circumcised by humility; unless he is little, and base, and vile in his own eyes; unless he is deeply convinced of that inbred "corruption of his nature," "whereby be is very far gone from original righteousness," being prone to all evil, averse to all good, corrupt and abominable; having a "carnal mind which is enmity against God, and is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be," unless he continually feels in his inmost soul, that without the Spirit of God resting upon him, he can neither think, nor desire, nor speak, nor act anything good, or well-pleasing in his sight. No man I say, has A title to the praise of God, till he feels his want of God; nor indeed, till he seeketh that "honor which cometh of God only;" and neither desires nor pursues that which cometh of man, unless so far only as it tends to this.” - John Wesley

Sermon 92 - On Zeal (Gal. 4:18)
“From hence it follows, that the properties of love are the properties of zeal also. Now, one of the chief properties of love is humility: "Love is not puffed up." Accordingly, this is a property of true zeal: humility is inseparable from it. As is the degree of zeal, such is the degree of humility: they must rise and fall together. The same love which fills a man with zeal for God, makes him little, and poor, and vile in his own eyes.” - John Wesley


A humbling confession

I. THE SELF-ACCUSATION. "Behold, I am vile."

1. The quality acknowledged. "Vileness." "Behold, I am vile." "Vile," says Johnson in his Dictionary, is "base, mean, worthless, despicable, impure." There is nothing in the world to which this will so much apply as sin; and to sin Job referred when he said, "Behold, I am vile." He does not call himself vile because he was a man reduced, poor, and needy; no man of sense ever would do so. Character intrinsically does not depend Upon adventitious circumstances. If poverty were vileness, as by their discourse some people seem to think, how vile must the apostles have been, who said, "Even to this very hour, we hunger, and thirst, are naked, are destitute, and have no Certain dwelling place!" How vile must that be which leads God to hate the work of His own hands; which leads a God of love to threaten to punish with everlasting destruction from His presence and His power, and which would not allow of His pardoning without the sacrifice of His own Son!

2. Who made this confession? Surely it was some very gross transgressor? No. It was some newly-awakened returning penitent? No. It was Job; a saint of no ordinary magnitude. What, then, do we learn from hence, but that the most eminent saints are the most remote from vain thoughts of themselves? We know that the nearer a man approaches to perfection in anything, the more sensible he becomes of his remaining deficiency, and the more hungry and thirsty he is after improvement. Take knowledge; advancement in knowledge is like sailing down a river; it widens as you proceed, till you are out at sea. A little knowledge puffs a man up, but Sir Isaac Newton was the most modest of men. Not that there is no difference between a saint and a sinner. Job does not mean to intimate that he loves sin, or that he lives in it. His friends accused him of this, which he denied, saying, in his address to God, "Thou knowest that I am not wicked." "Behold, my witness is in heaven, and my record is on high." But he knew that sin, though it did not reign in him, yet lived in him, yet opposed him, yet vexed him, yet defiled. him; so that he could not do the thing that he would.

3. When was the acknowledgment here uttered, "Behold, I am vile"? It was immediately after God's interview with him, God's intercourse with him, God's addressing him. "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man, for I will demand of thee, and answer thou Me." It was after God had further displayed Himself in the perfection of several of His works; it was then that "Job answered the Lord, and said, Behold, I am vile." And what does this teach us but this -- that the more we have to do with God, the more we shall see and feel our unworthiness. Those who have never been abroad to see great things are pleased with littleness, but travelling expands and enlarges the mind, furnishes it with superior objects and images; so that the man is no longer struck, upon his return, with the little rivulet and the little hill, which seemed to astonish him before he went from home, and during his infancy. And when a man has gone far enough, so to speak, to be introduced to God Himself, he will be sure to think afterward very little of himself. Yes, if anything can make us feel our littleness, it must be a view of His wisdom; if anything can make us sensible of our weakness, it must be the view of His almighty sovereignty; if anything can make us feel our depravity, it must be the view of His spotless purity, -- the spotless purity of Him "who is of purer eyes than to behold iniquity, and in whose sight the very heavens are not clean." - The Biblical Illustrator


OJ

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Brother I recommend this in gentle love. Get out of these writings. Get a New Testament and immerse yourself in it. For Paul says to the Ephesian elders that I commit you to God and to the word of his grace which cam build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

Brother you need buiding up in Jesus. I pray he touches your heart with his love and healing.

Blaine

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sermonindex

I think the problem comes when you can only see yourself as vile and there is no joy or testimony in your life apart from looking at your vileness, then it becomes something very destructive. The balance is always love and joy, this is why we have 1Cor 13 where Paul reminds us that that we can all things, but without love, we have nothing. The problem with the people who are imbalanced in this way is that they believe that their ministry is to prove others vileness and they believe that this is their love.............bro Frank

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Behold, I am vile!

(James Smith, "Daily Bible Readings for the Lord's Household")

"Behold, I am vile!" Job 40:4

JOB did not always think so. While at a distance from God—he could boast, argue, and contend with God! But when brought into the presence of God's holiness—the contrast was so striking, that he sunk down in astonishment, clothed with shame, and filled with self-loathing!

The manifestation of God's glory to a sinner—always produces the same effect!

ISAIAH felt as Job did, and exclaimed, "Woe is me, for I am ruined! My eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty!" Isaiah 6:5

Pride and self-righteousness can never live in God's presence!

The nearer to God—
  the more we discover our depravity,
  the more we loathe ourselves, and
  the more precious does the person and work of Jesus become!

Proud people have never been brought into God's presence!

Only clear, correct and humbling views of SELF—will make Jesus precious to us!

It is only as we see our own vileness—that we shall value the Savior's righteousness!

Precious indeed!!

OJ

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Compton

they believe that their ministry is to prove others vileness

I admit this is one of my pet peeves; extolling the virtue of your own vileness is pointless if it leads to stingy contempt rather then gracious humility. If we aren't careful, "Worm's pride" can become fashionable!

I'm reminded of a funny story...

One day at Synagogue, a Rabbi stands up before the congregation and cries aloud "Lord, I am nothing!" The Chazzan, not to be outdone, then stands up and also cries aloud, "Lord, I am nothing!" Feeling the need to be a good exemplar for the congregation, the Gabbai rises and proclaims, "Lord, I am nothing!" Meanwhile, in the rear of the synagogue, a janitor was so moved that he drops to his knees next to his mop and bucket, and with tearful trembling prays quietly, "Lord, I am nothing!". The Rabbi, upon spying the kneeling janitor, elbows the Chazzan and Gabbai, and under his breath says to them indignantly, "Look who thinks he's nothing."

MC

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I am also reminded of a story. In Puritain New England a young lass presented herself before the stern elders for church membership. The ruling elder asked her sternly. Young woman describe your experience in the slough of despond. She courtseyed and said. Honorable sir. I came over the slough of despond by the stepping on the stones.

I have no idea if the young maiden was ever admitted to church membershio. My guess would be she was cut off from the assembly for choosing to believe in Jesus.

Blaine

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"Then Job answered the Lord and said, Behold, I am vile."—Job 40:3-4.

SURELY, if any man had a right to say, I am not vile, it was Job; for, according to the testimony of God himself, he was "a perfect and an upright man, one that feared God and eschewed evil." Yet we find even this eminent saint, when by his nearness to God he had received light enough to discover his own condition, exclaiming, "Behold I am vile." We are sure that what Job was forced to say, we may each of us assent unto, whether we be God's children or not; and if we be partakers of divine grace, it becomes a subject of great consideration for us, since even we, although we be regenerated, must exclaim, each one for himself, "Behold, I am vile."" C.H. Spurgeon

Continue reading here
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0083.htm

OJ

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Ah brother Mike, you made me laugh out loud.

""Look who thinks he's nothing."

Thats exactly what I have run into in my travels time and time again. Its a competition to see who is the vilest and it robs of all joy while they compete to see who can crawl under the biggest rock.

"I admit this is one of my pet peeves; extolling the virtue of your own vileness is pointless if it leads to stingy contempt rather then gracious humility. If we aren't careful, "Worm's pride" can become fashionable!"

This would be a good measuring device for any who may have become imbalanced. Do you have stingy contempt for others? Do you walk in gracious humility? The Truth spoken in love is the most powerful way that we can walk our walk. "Worm's pride," is the opposite equivelent of " cheap grace." Both are dilluting and destructive to the true Gospel meassage. I am reminded of so many of the stories from Foxes book of Martyrs where the cruel inquisitors went about their business and were completly convinced that they did the Lord's work, as "unpleasant," as it was. ............ bro Frank

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roadsign

In Puritain New England a young lass presented herself before the stern elders for church membership. The ruling elder asked her sternly. Young woman describe your experience in the slough of despond. She courtseyed and said. Honorable sir. I came over the slough of despond by the stepping on the stones.

Praise God for the stones! “… he set my feet on a rock and gave me a firm place to stand. Psalm 40: 2

Food for thought from NETBible - regarding the word for “vile” in the KJV:

“The word (qalloti) means “to be light; to be of small account; to be unimportant.”

Notice how other translations render it:

"See, I am of small account; how can I reply to you? I put my hand over my mouth.” NRSV

"I am unworthy—how can I reply to you? I put my hand over my mouth.” NIV

“Behold, I am insignificant; what can I reply to You? I lay my hand on my mouth. NASB


This doesn’t appear to be a reference to total depravity as much as to Job’s renewed sense of self in comparison to a mighty God who now appears far mightier than Job had realized before: “He must increase; I must decrease.”

Diane

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More from the same sermon.

IV. And now I come to the fourth point, which is, THE DISCOVERY OF OUR CORRUPTION. Job said, "Behold, I am vile." That word "behold" implies that he was astonished. The discovery was unexpected. There are special times with the Lord's people, when they learn by experience that they are vile. They heard the minister assert the power of inbred lust, but perhaps they shook their heads and said, "I cannot go so far as that;" but after a little while they found, by some clearer light from heaven, that it was a truth after all—"Behold, I am vile."

OJ

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Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan,

"Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?"


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Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan,

"Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?"

That is considerably better than any of us here and yet this man who was all these things boldly proclaims, "Behold, I am vile" upon a meeting with God. If he owns this to be true of him, what of you and of me, or anyone else???

OJ

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pilgrim777

That's good roadsign and appolus.

Self is what is vile to God. What is vile is when we turn away from the Lord and trust in ourselves having no need of Him.

Trouble was brought to Job to drive him to God and to show him that his strength was found only in the Lord and not in himself.

The Lord has His ways of showing us what areas of our lives we are not trusting Him with and then bring us to a place of willing dependence and trust.

Pilgrim

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Have you had an encounter like these men had, including righteous Job?

Job 38:1-4 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding............ - Job's reply in 40:4.

Isa 6:1-5 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

Eze 1:26-28 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it. And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about. As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD.
And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.


Read the whole of the First Epistle of John [the one who laid his head on Jesus' chest] and then this ...

Rev 1:10-18 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: ..........
And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; and in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; and his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
*And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead.*
And He laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

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Lotis

You were vile Old Joe, but thanks to Christ you no longer need to be. Whether you believe that or not doesn't matter, you are the righteousness of God in Christ.

Job didn't exactly have a New Covenant understanding, so pulling a view of yourself from his words is all but worthless. We Christians can sometimes have MORE faith in our own past "vileness" than we have in Christ's righteousness in us. I feel like you enjoy calling yourself vile ha, get your eyes off yourself an onto Christ...

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pilgrim777

Joe, Lotis is right.

If God called Job, "Righteous Job", how much more would He call you "Righteous Joe"?

And of course it's all because of WHO is living inside you.

You are accepted in the Beloved.

Was Job perfect because he had no sin?

Was Job perfect because he abided in God continuously?

Was Job perfect because he obeyed all of God's commandments outwardly and performed all of his sacrifices, even those on behalf of his children?

Whatever the reason that the Lord said Job was perfect, something was lacking and only God knew this and He dealt with it in His own inimitable way.

But wherever Job was lacking, he was considered righteous in God's eyes.

How much more are those that are "In Christ" considered righteous (though they may be lacking in some areas)?

Pilgrim


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roadsign

There is nothing in the world to which this will so much apply as sin; and to sin Job referred when he said, "Behold, I am vile."

Interesting, it was Job’s three friends who believed that his problem was sin - and they were in the wrong. Are we not being asked to agree with them by interpreting "vile" (KJV) as the epitome of sinfulness? (Or is this a slant influenced by Calvinism?)

Where does God say this about Job in his speech to Job?

What exactly was it that Job repented from (42:6)?
Is "repent" a word only used for sin?

Diane

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sermonindex

What exactly was it that Job repented from (42:6)?

Here you go Roadsign, it's the answer of Job's repentance.

http://www.gotothebible.com/HTML/except2.html

"But God was not yet through. He speaks again, bringing before Job's soul a sense of His greatness and power, of His glory and omniscience. As Job contemplates it all he gets a new conception of the holiness and the righteousness of God. His own littleness is accentuated. That God should look at all upon sinful men now amazes him. "The end of the Lord" is reached at last, and he cries out: "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes" (42:5-6).We know the rest and need not dwell upon it here. The great object of the Lord has been attained. Job changes his mind -- his whole attitude -- both as to himself and as to God. Humbled to the dust, he condemns himself and glorifies the Lord. And this is what God had in view from the beginning. And it is what all must reach in one way or another who are saved by His grace."


OJ

ETA noticed the quote was cut short.

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Roadsign

This is not a "denominational" issue and crosses denominational boundaries, that is why Wesley, Watson, Spurgeon and Smith all preach it.

Read Spurgeon again:

"Then Job answered the Lord and said, Behold, I am vile."—Job 40:3-4.

SURELY, if any man had a right to say, I am not vile, it was Job; for, according to the testimony of God himself, he was "a perfect and an upright man, one that feared God and eschewed evil." Yet we find even this eminent saint, when by his nearness to God he had received light enough to discover his own condition, exclaiming, "Behold I am vile." We are sure that what Job was forced to say, we may each of us assent unto, whether we be God's children or not; and if we be partakers of divine grace, it becomes a subject of great consideration for us, since even we, although we be regenerated, must exclaim, each one for himself, "Behold, I am vile."" C.H. Spurgeon


The rest of the sermon should be read to help shed some light on the issue.

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0083.htm


OJ

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roadsign

His own littleness is accentuated. That God should look at all upon sinful men now amazes him. "The end of the Lord" is reached at last, and he cries out: "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes" …. he condemns himself and glorifies the Lord.

Is this saying that the sin Job repented from was: not abhorring himself and failing to condemn himself. Was God’s aim to instill in Job a sense of self-condemnation and a perception of himself as “vile” (to use the KJV rendering) – that is, a despicable loathsome sinner. Yet why does God himself not condemn Job as such, and why are Job’s three friends condemned for accusing Job of sin as the cause of his suffering. Or were they simply too easy on Job? I might consider that a possibility, being that a deficient view of God is indeed a vile sin. And I suspect we could all put ourselves in that category.

PS: I readily stress, along with Spurgeon, the importance of recognizing our capacity to commit the vilest atrocities against others. We are capable of the worst of sins. Yet, is this theology of sin to be drawn from Job in this particular account? It seems that Job is in actuality recognizing his littleness and God’s greatness in comparison. His former misconception is shock to him and he despises himself after his encounter with God. That reminds me of Peter’s encounter with the Lord: “Depart from me, for I am a sinner.” But, we wouldn’t want to make that a virtue in itself, would we? It's simply human reaction to an encounter with God (see Jesus-is- God's earlier post)


Just some thoughts...


Diane

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timg

I think I understand where you are coming from oj. I have been praying for an encounter with the living God such as Isaiah had. I know to most this might be strange but, I think without a better understanding of the Holiness of God we will never understand how sinfull we are. Hence we never will understand His mercy and then His grace. I could be wrong but I don't see anywhere in scripture where God rebukes a man for recognizing his wickedness. Perhaps we would do well to pray that God would open a man's eyes to understand His grace in His time rather than trying to convince someone he is just, when God might be wanting the person to travel to the depths of despair first.
When I read the accounts of the revivals it seems as if takes a man to the oint where he feels so wicked that he is utter fear of God before He shows him His love.

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Is this saying that the sin Job repented from was: not abhorring himself and failing to condemn himself. Was God’s aim to instill in Job a sense of self-condemnation and a perception of himself as “vile” (to use the KJV rendering) – that is, a despicable loathsome sinner.

Job's sin was justifying himself at the expense of condemning God. He so much as said that he did not deserve what God had sent, making God an unjust Judge. One sin of ANY kind DESERVES the worst and Job wasn't sinless, it is only by grace that we do not get what we deserve.

God did what he did to prove that the BEST of men need a change of mind about self and God.

EXAMPLE: I still work out regularly and see a lot of young kids come into the gym. They get their first taste of weights and a month or two later they think they are very strong because they now lift a bit more than when they came in, but they still can't fill up a bar. After 30+ years in the iron game, even though I lift a 425 lb triple on the deadlift I look around the gym and see that there are 1000's of pounds of weight and equipment there that I cannot lift. Then I go outside and look at the building, then the parking lot, then think that this whole big ball is just hanging out in the middle of nowhere at the command of God. God is holding me, everything I am lifting, the planet I am lifting it on, and some galaxies besides. Even though I may be one of the strongest guys in the gym it is then that I realize just how weak I actually am. Why? Because when I stopped comparing myself to other men, and compared myself to omnipotence the difference was so vast as count my strength as nothing.

Like the young kids in the gym, men think they are holy and righteous because they compare themselves to other men, or unwisely compare themselves with themselves (2 Cor 10:12) and judge favourably in their own case on top of it. But when you stack your righteousness up next to God's you can come away with nothing other than that you are vile. That is what a meeting with God causes, and it is only the saints that meet with God.

If you are a saint and have met with God, you will be thankful His righteousness is imputed to you because you realize that any practical or imparted righteousness you claim is too vile to measure up to perfection. Even your best prayers are loaded with sin...

This right sight of God is what causes the saints to cry out, "Behold, I am vile", and is the stumblingstone that enemies of God loath to embrace...

Sure, many will own their regeneration, their holiness, their kindness, their love, their whatever it is that puffs them up, but this doesn't puff up, it deflates, and is too hard to take for those who must justify self at the expense of God. This is what Job (among the best of men) was to teach us.

Further reading
http://www.gotothebible.com/HTML/except2.html

"But behind all this there is another and a deeper problem; it is the evil in the hearts of the best of men and the necessity of judging oneself in the light of the holiness of God; and this is repentance."

OJ

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sermonindex

"Men think they are holy and righteous because they compare themselves to other men, and judge favourably in their own case on top of it."

Not sure what circles you travel in Joe, but Christians, genuine Christians ,know that they are made righteous by the blood of the Lamb. If by your above statement you are saying that genuine Christians are not righteous in the sight of God, then you have exposed a deep error in the theology that you follow.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

Joe, have you received an abundance of grace? Have you received the gift of righteousness? And if you have received these things, did you receive them because the Lord owed you something, did you work for these things? By despising yourself and having a ministry of pointing out the vileness of men, are you owed by God?

All genuine Christians seek to walk deeply with their Lord. "As the deep panteth for the waterbrooks so my soul longeth after thee." And in that longing and searching to go deeper, the Lord is found by those who diligently seek Him. Its not a one time deal, we pursue and seek out the Lord all of our days. We encounter Him and in that encounter we certainly see ourslves in the light of Christ and if it were not for the blood of the Lamb we would despair. Yet, praise the Lord we also see the train of His robe filling the temple. We are filled to overflowing by His joy, and there is strength in that. Joy that we have been counted worthy to enter into His sufferings. Joy that we are known by Him and that we know Him.

If a Christian can only testify of their misery and their foulness and they have no conception of their deliverence and their state before a Holy God, then something is seriously wrong and that one would have to examine His heart, beware when he claimed to stand, see if he is indeed in the faith........... bro Frank

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Well Appolus lay it out on the table, tell us how righteous you are compared to God.

OJ

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Answer to Joe.......

"Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ."

You can try and change the question to suit your agenda Joe, but the above Scripture is what I gave you, not the straw man question that you asked. You can subjectivly say all the day long that when men and woman claim to be made righteous by the blood of the Lamb that they are puffed up, but that is just your opinion Joe. As far as I know, no one on this site has ever claimed to be righteous in comparison to God, that is just being silly, unless you can give examples that I am unaware of. Joe, do you consider anyone on this site to be saved?........ bro Frank

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sermonindex

Joe, do you consider anyone on this site to be saved?........ bro Frank

Yup, and having met Him, they own their vileness before God. For the Christian there is nothing somber or dark about owning our own vileness in comparison to the righteousness of God, it is joyful to know that by owning what we are, we have judged ourselves and will not come under judgment. This is grace, we are vile and God receives us anyway because we are marked with the Blood of His dear Son.


OJ

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brothagary

i think it is verry intersting , to read in the gosple of luke i think ,,,that jesus said ,we should not call our selfs righteous servents ,,, but unjust servents ,,doing what is our duty ,,,,,now i believe this is speaking in contex ,with the vilness ,or unjust atatude that we should have that is spoken of by the propherts ,and what joe is talking about


do you brothers and sistes of the word ,no about what jesus said about this ,,,,im wonder are you aware of the scripture regarding this

i was going to do alittle message about this scripture a few weeks back ,,,,but for some reason i was holding back

ill go through the gosple of luke to show the scripture

unless one of my beloved brothers and sisters ,might like to post the scripture im talking


tho i may be righeous
i will as jesus said and i agree with him ,,call my self an unjust servent ,,,,,,,scripture says , not even the heaven are pure in his sight

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roadsign

Old Joe, I think your analogy of weight lifting is fitting. You use it to draw out the idea of comparison. And isn’t that what Job experienced? By his encounter with God, he came to see himself against a new measuring stick. Here’s where modern English translations may be more accurate to Job’s experience than the KJV: Ex the “I am insignificant” NASB; “I am unworthy” NIV; “I am nothing” NLT; “I am of small account”.

In the NIV The word “vile” is used several times elsewhere. But none of these examples are applied to an honest humble self concept:
“No my friends, don’t be so vile” (the homosexuals at Lot’s door);
“Ashtoreth the vile goddess”
“the enemy is this vile Haman”;
“a vile and corrupt man who drinks up evil like water (Job. 15:16);
“The Lord…. despises a vile man but honors those who fear the Lord”;
“vile images” (ie, idols),
“ungodly and wicked, every mouth speaks vileness” Is. 9:17

In today’s English usage “vile” means:

Vile:
1. wretchedly bad: a vile humor.
2. highly offensive, unpleasant, or objectionable: vile slander.
3. repulsive or disgusting, as to the senses or feelings: a vile odor.
4. morally debased, depraved, or despicable: vile deeds (ex the Laodecian church)
5. foul; filthy: vile

Was Job actually repulsive to God because of a sinful life/ vile nature? I raise this point because there is a sense of “vileness” that is highly destructive spiritually, emotionally, and relationally. The historical church itself has at times exploited this - monopolized on this self-concept of “vile”. The aim is to keep people feeling condemned. Then you can have power and control over them. They’ll keep on needing the church to absolve their guilt. Even apart from a religious background, a generalized self-concept of vileness has imprisoned many in emotional disorders. For these people their measuring stick was not a God-encounter, but an encounter with humans who never loved them as worthy beings. (ex abuse, etc) And THAT is a key difference!

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

I would say that we are dealing with a paradoxical reality: Our God-encounters drop us to the ground with a sense of utter wretchedness and smallness, and in that position we find our restored place through God’s mercy: lifted up –seated with him in the heavenlies. (Eph)

Here’s my caution: Let God bring this about for others – because when we humans either debase or absolve others through our distorted theologies (or whatever), we destroy faith.

Our calling is to bring Life not death. Job 4 is a case where modern translations seem more in keeping with the other God-encounters found in scripture. And it may be more helpful for today’s church – many who perhaps have come out of a debasing kind of Christianity.

PS: brothergary, would any of this resonate with you, in your vision for a message.

Diane

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roadsign

A wee observation: The Hebrew word used for "vile" is used 81 times in the OT, and seems mostly used in reference to "cursed", but also a wide array of other renderings. Context would be key here wouldn't it?

Peter's words "Depart from me for I am a sinner" - seem to apply too: "God - I can't stand looking at myself!" In such God-encounters his bright light exposes our unholiness to us. Isn't that why Adam and Eve went running for some fig leaves?

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pilgrim777

We become what we were not before.
We do not cease to be what we were before.

This syllogism pertains to those who are Christians, addressing the subsequent condition of those who have been regenerated by the receiving of divine life. As stated, the two statements are again illogical due to their apparent contradiction, but Theo-logic provides explanation of spiritual realities which natural logic cannot consider.

As Christians, “we become what we were not before.” The spiritual condition of the Christian is such that “if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come” (II Cor. 5:17). We have “put on the new man” (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10), allowing for a new spiritual identity as “Christ-ones,” Christians, who are “in Christ,” being “joined in one spirit with Him” (I Cor. 6:17). As “partakers of the divine nature” (II Pet. 1:4), we are considered spiritually righteous (Rom. 5:19; II Cor. 5:21), holy (Col. 1:22) and perfect (Phil. 3:15; Heb. 12:23), deriving such spiritual character identity from the indwelling presence of the righteous, holy and perfect Trinity. The risen Christ has become our life (Col. 3:4), and we can say with Paul, “It is no longer I who lives, but Christ lives in me” (Gal. 2:20).

In “becoming what we were not” prior to our spiritual regeneration, the Christian personally experiences a new spiritual condition. This does not mean that the Christian becomes God, or becomes Christ, or becomes Holy Spirit in some form of monistic merging or absorption. Some have so emphasized the first premise to the denial of the second. Even the Eastern Orthodox churches who refer to the deification of Theosis, indicate that the Christian does not become essentially divine, but participates in the energies of the divine life of the Trinity.

Though “we become what we were not before, we do not cease to be what we were before.” How can this be? “All things have become new” (II Cor. 5:17) in terms of our spiritual condition, but the Christian remains a human being. In like manner as the non-Christian is not to be considered sub-human, neither is the Christian to be considered super-human. We do not want to lapse into Platonic and Gnostic dualism, or engage in mystical flights, thinking that we can transcend our humanity and be “no longer human.” The Christian continues to function spiritually, psychologically and physiologically as a human person. As a contingent and dependent human, the Christian remains a responsible choosing creature, responsible to be receptive in faith to derive character expression from the divine presence within. In the midst of the common trials of life (I Cor. 10:13), the Christian continues to be tempted by the tempter (I Thess. 3:5), and should not expect to be exempt from such temptation. Vulnerability to such temptation is intensified by the residual patterns of active and reactive selfishness and sinfulness that remain in the behavior mechanism of the Christian’s soul. The behavioral conflict of “the flesh setting its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit setting its desire against the flesh” (Gal. 5:17) is a constant crucible in the Christian life. When the Christian succumbs to temptation and “lives according to the flesh” (Rom. 8:12,13), he misrepresents his spiritual identity “in Christ,” and sins. “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves” (I Jn. 1:8).

The contradiction of this syllogism becomes a dialectic that must be kept in tensioned balance in Christian thought. Protestant Christianity, in general, has shied away from, or sometimes completely denied, the first premise statement. In an overly objectified understanding of the condition of righteousness as a standing or status forensically or juridically declared by God, and conferred by legal imputation to the believer, Protestant theologians have emphasized a concept of “alien righteousness” that disallows that the Christian can subjectively “become what he was not before.” Instead, they have often emphasized that the Christian “does not cease to be what he was before,” a depraved and vile sinner with a deceitfully wicked heart (cf. Jere. 17:9), a no good worm of a creature, “just a sinner saved by grace.” Sinful behavior is justified by the excuse, “I am only human,” and “the old sinful nature gets the best of me sometimes.” What an inadequate understanding of spiritually regenerated “saints” of God, and the resource we have received in Christ to live as He lived.

by James Fowler
MAKING THE IRRATIONAL RATIONAL
Some Christian Syllogisms
http://www.christinyou.net/pages/irrational.html

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Pilgrim

Fowler doesn't get it, he denies the two natures of a believer and tries to explain with Barthian psycho-logic.

The believer has two natures, his own vile nature, and the new nature of Christ. The first is his own and all that the believer can claim as emanating from himself, the second nature though resident in him, emanates from and belongs to Christ.

OJ

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pilgrim777

Hey there Joe,

That is a very interesting characterization of Jim's thoughts on the subject.

I would call it a mischaracterization and would submit that you "don't get it".

He believes in the body of sin and the "flesh". This dual nature, schizophrenic madness was introduced by the NIV in our Bible version but in the 5th century by Augustine.

Shall we let Jim speak for himself?

The "flesh" is not related to one's spiritual condition, and is not equivalent to spiritual depravity. The "flesh" is not to be personified as the presence of Satan in the individual, whether non-Christian or Christian. The "flesh" is not substantive or partitive, meaning that it is not an entity, like a "hunk of evil," within the individual. The "flesh" is not a generative source of evil within the individual. The "flesh" is not inherent or intrinsic to humanity, even fallen humanity. The "flesh" is not nascent or congenital, meaning that no person is born with the "flesh," and there are no hereditary patterns of fleshliness. The "flesh" is not eradicated at conversion or during the Christian life. The "flesh" does not become better or reformed. The "flesh" is not to be identified with, equated with, or used as a synonym of "inherent sin, sin-principle, law of sin, old man, old self, old nature, sin-nature, self-nature, Adam-nature, human nature," etc.

Conversely, the "flesh" is related to behavior, and relates to the psychological function of the soul. The "flesh" is related to the "desires" of man within the soul, allowing for the phrases "fleshly desires," and "desires of the flesh" (cf. Rom. 13:14; Gal. 5:24; Eph. 2:3; I Peter 2:11). The "flesh" refers to how these desires are patterned toward selfishness and sinfulness within the soul. The "flesh" patterns are developed throughout the experiences of our lives, and are individualized in idiosyncratic patterns of selfish action and/or reaction. Some of these "flesh" patterns become deep-seated habituated patterns of addictive, obsessive, and compulsive behavior, sometimes called "besetting sins" or "strongholds of sin." All human beings have developed these patterns of "fleshly desires," with the sole exception of Jesus Christ. Every Christian still has these "flesh" patternings of selfishness and sinfulness in the desires of their soul, even though completely regenerated spiritually, and these patterns and propensities will remain throughout the Christian's earthly life.

As "flesh" is connected with desires, it is necessary to recognize that God creates every person with a full set of God-given human desires in their soul. These desires are amoral; they are not wrong in themselves. They are God-given behavioral conduits - intended to be pipelines that allow God's character to be expressed in human behavior. Examples of such needs, drives and desires are: the desire to be loved and accepted, to belong, to be nurtured, sustained, and provided for. We have a desire for security, order, communication, belief, meaning and purpose, contentment, excitement, uniqueness, and identity. In addition we have a desire for freedom, worship, appreciation of beauty, creativity, motivation, and responsibility. We even have a desire to work and achieve, a desire for significance, a desire to possess, to give, to serve, and a desire for hope and expectancy. The basic desires to eat, drink, sleep, and for sexual expression must also be included. There is nothing wrong with any of these God-given desires.

The Greek language had two primary words for "desire." The first of these was epithumia, which meant "to be moved upon, to urge upon, or to have passion upon." The second word was epipotheo, which meant "to yearn upon, to experience upon (usually from outside)." Our God-given desires could be "urged upon" or "yearned upon" by the Spirit of God, or they could be "urged upon" or "yearned upon" by the tempting influence of Satan as he sought to fulfill the God-given desires in God-forbidden ways. Though every person is born with clear, pure, and sinless desires, our desires are "urged upon" and "yearned upon" by "the spirit that works in the sons of disobedience" (Eph. 2:2). "Dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph. 2:1,5), and "slaves to sin" (Rom. 6:6), this is the only "operating system" that the unregenerate have work with. They are caught in the vortex of satanically inspired self-orientation that inevitably develops selfish and sinful patterns of action and reaction in the desires of their soul. The desires of every person become bent, warped, twisted, and kinked in individuated patterns of selfishness and sinfulness - personalized patterns of selfishly indulgent desires. The particular warp of the various desires, and the strength of the selfish twists are unique and different in every person, but there is no doubt that some selfish patterns of desires have more social consequences than others. Everyone seems to have one or more deep-seated and habituated patterns that become "besetting sins" (cf. Heb. 12:1) which we cannot conquer, try as we might.

When an individual becomes a Christian by spiritual regeneration, and the Spirit of Christ comes to live in the spirit of that individual (Rom. 8:9), their spiritual condition is complete (Col. 2:10) and "all has become new" (II Cor. 5:17). The "flesh," the selfish and sinful patterns of action and reaction in the desires of the soul, remain in the new Christian, however. This sets up the conflict whereby "the flesh sets its desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh" (Gal. 5:17). This is not a conflict of contrasting natures in the Christian, but a motivational conflict between our old patterns of selfish action and reaction, and the prompting of the Spirit of Christ to express His character in our behavior.

In like manner as Paul explained that we are "dead to sin" (Rom. 6:11) and 'freed from sin" (Rom. 6:7,18,22), he also declares, "those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires" (Gal. 5:24), and "the members of our earthly body are dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed" (Col. 3:5). Christians are "no longer in the flesh" (Rom. 7:5; 8:8,9), in the sense that they are enslaved to the satanically inspired "operating system" that makes them "slaves of sin" (Rom. 6:6,17) and "sinful passions" (Rom. 7:5). Converted "from the dominion of Satan to God" (Acts 26:18), the "flesh" patternings, energized as they are by the tempter, have no legitimate claim or mastery over our behavior as Christians for we have received the greater power (cf. I John 4:4) of the Lord Jesus Christ within our spirit. Christians are "under no obligation" (Rom. 8:12) to respond by means of the selfish action and reaction patterns of the "flesh," but are instead to "make no provision for the flesh" (Rom. 13:14) by capitulating and catering to those selfish desires.

Underlying the particular selfish bent of our desires is a twisted mind-set that pervades and provides a selfish motivating perspective to the self-concerns of our "flesh." Alienated from God in our unregeneracy, all fallen men have developed the premise that they are an "independent self" that is inherently capable of self-generating character and behavior that is self-righteous, and that by means of their own self-sufficiency and self-reliance. This presupposition of human potential to perform and produce all that man needs is the humanistic lie that fallaciously prompts man with a self-motivation to "be all he can be." When an individual becomes a Christian this fallacious humanistic mind-set of being an "independent self" is the most difficult part of the "flesh" to overcome, because we cling tenaciously to this fallacy of auto-generative human performance and self-effort, even transferring this thesis to the alleged Christian ability to live the Christian life by performing in accord with God's expectations. This foundational premise of all fleshly thinking can only be overcome as the Christian submits to the Spirit of Christ within, allowing Him to generate His character expressed through our desires in godly behavior. When that liberating transitional process begins to take place we can experience the freedom that God intended for man.

It is not the responsibility of the Christian to identify and fight against the "flesh" mind-set and patterns. That would of necessity entail the self-effort that is intrinsic to the selfishness of the "flesh." In the midst of the motivational conflict of the "flesh" and the Spirit, Paul advises that "the Spirit sets its desires against the flesh" (Gal. 5:17). The "battle is the Lord's" (I Sam. 17:47); for the living Christ is the only Victor Who can overcome sinfulness and selfishness in the Christian life. Evangelical Christian teaching has often failed to understand this basic premise of divine action in the Christian life. Admonishing Christians not to "walk according to the flesh" (Rom. 8:4) and "live according to the flesh" (Rom. 8:12,13), by manifesting the "deeds of the flesh" (Gal. 5:19-21), the religious teachers often advise the human resolve of commitment to overcome the "flesh" and live the Christian life. In a dyslexic reversion of Paul's gospel of grace, they read Galatians 5:16 backwards: "Do not carry out the desires of the flesh, and you will be walking in the Spirit." What an abominable mistranslation. Paul says, "Walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh, .for the Spirit sets its desires against the flesh" (Gal. 5:16,17). By the indwelling presence of the Spirit of Christ (cf. Rom. 8:9; Gal. 4:6; II Tim. 1:14), the Christian is "led of the Spirit" (Rom. 8:14; Gal. 5:18) in order to "walk by the Spirit" (Rom. 8:4; Gal. 5:16,25) and manifest the "fruit of the Spirit" (Gal. 5:22,23).

As a final statement about the "flesh," it is important to note that the "desires of the flesh" do not tempt us to act out in sinful behavior. The patterns of selfish and sinful action and reaction are well entrenched in our soul, but they have no inherent power to energize and actuate sinful behavior. The Evil One is the only energizing source of the evil character that actuates sinful expression. Many English translations of James 1:14 appear to indicate "we are tempted when we are enticed by our own desire." A more careful translation will read, "Each one is tempted (by the tempter), being enticed and lured under his own desire." Satan, the tempter, goes fishing under our idiosyncratic patterns of fleshly desires, which he knows so well, seeking to attract and ensnare us to make a choice that will employ his evil character via those old patterns of selfish action and reaction. There is nothing in scripture that indicates that the Christian is self-tempted by the desires of the "flesh," by an old-nature, or by some evil "self."

Here is the rest of the article.
http://www.christinyou.net/pages/christatworkinyou.htm

Sadly, this dual-nature teaching has wreaked havoc in individual's lives.

Most of the Christians I have ever heard with the exception of a few teach that a Christian has two natures and cannot help himself but to sin because their identity is the old man.. They do not teach the true gospel. The true gospel teaches that we are not only saved from the penalty of sin but also the bondage to it. Sin shall not have dominion over you.

Current teaching in Christendom gives people a defeatist mindset. "I can't stop sinning".

That is not the mind of Christ. The mind of Christ is a victorious mindset. The old man is dead, he has passed away & all things have become new! Believe it & receive it!

You can have faith and confidence in the absoluteness of God's Word. Hopefully it will finally "stick" with you that you have been given A NEW IDENTITY! You no longer identify with Satan but with Christ.

Pilgrim


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As I said, Barthian psycho-logic.

Unless you produce any sinless believers, Romans 7 is depicting a believer, and the war he is in.

OJ

ETA Pilgrim are you James Fowler, if not what is your relation to him?

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pilgrim777

Hi Joe,

I am not James Fowler and I have no relationship with him.

All the best,
Pilgrim

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sermonindex

Here is what Fowler said:

"I recall one teacher who explained that when a person becomes a Christian, they now have 2 natures in their spirit – the “old sin nature” and the “new Christ nature.” Can you imagine? It is inconceivable that a person could be half‐regenerated. Such teaching leads to a schizophrenic understanding of ones spiritual identity; to a paranoid uncertainty of what/who is prompting and motivating my behavior; and a convenient excuse for blaming that old sinful part of me for sinful behavior. Is it any wonder Christians throw up their hands, and do not concern themselves with holy behavior?
Many who espouse “two natures” within the Christian individual are failing to differentiate between the spiritual and the psychological. What they are calling “two natures” is really the admitted conflict of “spirit and flesh” within Christian behavior. NOT “two natures,” but the desires of the Spirit of Christ within our spirit, contrasted with the patterned desires within our soul that are inclined toward previous action and reaction responses of selfishness and sinfulness."

The teacher mentioned at the beginning would be Spurgeon. He stated that in the sermon I linked to.

OJ

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Now compare that to what Spurgeon said below and you should see the difference, and why even regenerate man should see himself as vile.

"It is a doctrine held by all the orthodox, that there dwelleth still in the regenerate, the lusts of the flesh, and that there doth still remain in the hearts of those who are converted by God's mercy, the evil of carnal nature. I have found it very difficult to distinguish, in experimental matters, concerning sin. It is usual with many writers, especially with hymn writers, to confound the two natures of a Christian. Now, I hold that there is in every Christian two natures, as distinct as were the two natures of the God-Man Christ Jesus. There is one nature which cannot sin, because it is born of God—a spiritual nature, coming directly from heaven, as pure and as perfect as God himself, who is the author of it; and there is also in man that ancient nature which, by the fall of Adam, hath become altogether vile, corrupt, sinful, and devilish. There remains in the heart of the Christian a nature which cannot do that which is right, any more than it could before regeneration, and which is as evil as it was before the new birth—as sinful, as altogether hostile to God's laws, as ever it was—a nature which, as I said before, is curbed and kept under by the new nature in a great measure, but which is not removed and never will be until this tabernacle of our flesh is broken down, and we soar into that land into which there shall never enter anything that defileth."

OJ

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brothagary

resonates verry much road sign

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sermonindex

I think the problem with Joe's position is, for example, when I admitted to him privately that I am indeed vile in comparison to God, that, on the other hand I am redeemed, washed clean and made righteous bu the blood of the Lamb and a child of the most high who calls His Father abba, he would not acknowledge my acknowledgment.

Again I would state, or ask, who is arguing that they compare well to God? Its so preposterous that no one would even make the argument, no one who made serious claims of Christianity. And so, if I, and every creature, saved or otherwise is vile in comparison to God, then what has that to do with the righteousness that was imputed for my justification or the righteousness that was implanted for my sanctification?

I guess what I am saying is, is Joe simply in the condemnation game because he ignores acknowledgement of one's vileness in comparison to God? I have met many Christians who are stuck in a Romans 7 experience, and often times seemingly quite " happy," to be so. And their mantra is, and only can be because they walk under condemnation " oh wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death?"

They simply never discover the walk in the Spirit where there is no condemnation. And that would be tragic enough, but when they spy our others liberties from that condemnation, they try with all their might to bring that one who has been freed from such a cry, back ensnared in the chains of condemnation..............bro Frank

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rbanks

Excellent post brother Frank!!!

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White_Stone

Brother Frank,

You said, "I think the problem with Joe's position is, for example, when I admitted to him privately that I am indeed vile in comparison to God, that, on the other hand I am redeemed, washed clean and made righteous bu the blood of the Lamb and a child of the most high who calls His Father abba, he would not acknowledge my acknowledgment."

How can it be a problem with Joe's position? You say that you are "vile in comparison to God." But, by omission, not so vile in comparison with other Saints and or Sinners? No wonder you have a problem with Joe's position. You see his position as below yours. That is a shame, too. Hopefully it is not a permanent viewpoint and you will realize how you are coming across. There are none of us above Joe's position and I find it a most comfortable one because it is in Jesus.

white stone

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sermonindex

I think the problem with Joe's position is, for example, when I admitted to him privately that I am indeed vile in comparison to God

Frank, actually you said no such thing, and have continued to deny it until this point. The most you have ever claimed is that you 'were' vile, never that you 'are' vile. This is just as the Pharisee (the new Frank) thanking God that you are not like this here publican (the old Frank). Who went down justified?

BTW as the quotes have shown, this is not just Joe's position, it is Spurgeon's, Wesley's, Watson's Edwards, Ironsides etc. THIS is what the gospel produces in a man!

OJ

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sermonindex

You say that you are "vile in comparison to God." But, by omission, not so vile in comparison with other Saints and or Sinners?

And THAT is the point!!

Paul saw himself as "CHIEF of Sinners", and that he is because his sin AFTER salvation was against the most grace shown to ANY man!!! Sin against grace is more heinous than sin against law, but the most heinous sin is that which is against the most grace!!

OJ

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rbanks

You say that you are "vile in comparison to God." But, by omission, not so vile in comparison with other Saints and or Sinners? No wonder you have a problem with Joe's position. You see his position as below yours.
-quote

How did you get this from Frank's post! that is not what he is saying.


Many are misunderstanding. The title of this thread "the vileness of the saint", the saint is not vile but is sanctified.


I am vile within myself but in Christ I am a new creature, I am a new man and the new man is not vile.

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sermonindex

Hi rbanks, I think you will find that words do not carry much meaning in this discussion with Joe I am afraid. Anything more I would add to this discussion would be mere sophistry. One has to know when ears are closed and hearts are hard as the rocks in the pharisees hands. I told Joe and made it clear to him, and again repeated in the previous post that in comparison to God,all men, all creatures are vile, whether saved or unsaved.

Yet, and this is the part that Joe can hardly stand, I am not ashamed of the fact that my Jesus died for me because He loved me with an everlasting love. My wonderful Father in Heaven sent Jesus because He loved the world so much. I rejoice in my salvation. I could not even get Joe to give me his testimony, and he stated that only one person on this site was a Christian, and that's the man who invited him here. Even the founder of this site falls foul of Joe's eye, Joe saying that he was as bad as me. There is just no fathoming this, apart from, and I regret to say this, the accuser of the brethren. I shall bow out of this discussion as I try and not stay involved in fruitless conversations. I will let others judge my last post and see if they come to the same conclusions as white_stone and Joe. God bless the all the saints who rejoice and are glad in thier salvation and who rejoice in the fact that they are adopted sons and daughters of the most High God and are priests in a royal priesthood............... brother Frank

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Christinyou

Old Joe, I am able to accomplish that Grace in Christ by Faith and the renewing of my mind by the Holy Spirit teacher of the Christ that has been birthed into my spirit, which is satan out and Christ in, the new creature Paul is speaking of. My Spirit is perfect before Our Father, because it is the Spirit of His dear Son that now lives in me. The old man mind is still with me, but it is by revelation being renewed to the mind of Christ that taking place in my mind will and emotions, which is my soulish part. This is separate but connected to the Spirit of Christ that now lives in me, which overwhelms and takes place by His Spirit that is now in me, being taught this truth by the Holy Spirit Teacher sent by the Father at the request of the Son and His Prayer to Send Him, not to be just with us but to be in us forever. This is where the dividing asunder takes place; Hebrews 4:12-16 For the word ( Logos)of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

These Logos Words are not just the written word but the Living Word of God, from Jesus Himself taught by revelation of the Holy Spirit Teacher. Peter says we are born again into, the Incorruptable Seed of the Father rebirthed into us, making us born from above, perfect in Spirit, being perfected in Soul and will be perfect in the resurrection body like Jesus Christ.

Old Joe; Thank you so much for this truth, it is the only way it can work in my understanding with my mind and by His Spirit that lives in me taught by every word given to Him; the Holy Spirit who is my teacher.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. He has already received us unto Himself, that is why we are seated in the Heavenlies in Him.

This is our Teacher; John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Jesus speaks, the Holy Spirit brings truth to our minds, (soul).

What does He say? John 15:26-27 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

Assurance of this truth; John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

John 16:13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

John 14,15,16,17 show plainly what the Holy Spirit is in the believer for, to teach us Christ. This is where Christ the Chruch the Body of Christ makes its most serious mistake, making the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit the same Person. They are not and plainly divided in their work in the believer, but also One God with the Father who makes His abode with us also.

Thanks again for truth of how the believer is to have faith in what the Word plainly speaks to.

In Christ: Phillip

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Now that those who reject this have had their say, back to the original intent of offering comfort to those who behold this great truth.

A few gems from John Owen on the matter.

"Now, of all things in our condition, there is nothing so suited unto this end and purpose as that which lies before us; namely, the vile remainders of enmity against God which are yet in our hearts and natures. And it is no small evidence of a gracious soul when it is willing to search itself in this matter, and to be helped therein from a word of truth; when it is willing that the word should dive into the secret parts of the heart, and rip open whatever of evil and corruption lies therein."

"In walking with God. His delight is with the humble and contrite ones, those that tremble at his word, the mourners in Zion; and such are we only when we have a due sense of our own vile condition."

"The man that understands the evil of his own heart, how vile it is, is the only useful, fruitful, and solid believing and obedient person. Others are fit only to delude themselves, to disquiet families, churches, and all relations whatever."

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/owen_remainderssin.html


OJ

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Jer 17:9,10 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Psa 139:23,24 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: and see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.


http://www.ellerslie.com/Eric_Ludy_Sermons/Entries/2012/1/1_Spiritualized_Selfishness.html

GOD Bless!

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Psa 139:23,24 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: and see if there be any wicked way in me

He hasn't done it yet, but I pray that that the Lord does this for you ma'am and soon, when He does you will finally be silenced. Until then you will just keep blathering on...

OJ

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Elibeth

My friend Joe,

I was thinking on some things as I have been keeping up with your post.

Would calling something GOOD,( comparing it to the way Jesus is saying in this word ,...and thinking on the word vile ......?

I was thinking of when ,in Mk.10:17,..where this man ran and knelt down at Jesus feet, and called Jesus "Good Master"..Jesus said unto him,why
callest Me good ? there is none good but One,that is God.

And in Rom.7:18,..it says, "For I know that in me (that is,in my flesh),
dwelleth NO GOOD THING;....
but to go on to chp.8:5,.."For they that are after the flesh,do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit,the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally minded,is death,but to be Spiritually minded is LIFE and PEACE.
(But how many of us are "yet carnally minded "?)
This is most serious !
Wouldn't we have to love the Lord with all our heart, soul, mind ,strength,
To be truly Spiritually minded ?
( to love Him,is to love His Word, because He is the Word.)

As for the word "vile", ..I see it used in (2) places in the new Testament,...
it is getting late, and I really need to continue maybe later..forgive me.

elizabeth

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Elibeth

Continue:,

Here is the (2) places I have found in the new testament mentioning
The word: "vile"

(1).. Rom.1:26,..(in this place,..It is talking about a very "vile" person.)
The Strongs # for this word 819----women to women, men to men lusting after each other, wickedness,unrighteousness, covetiousness,envy,
haters of God,strife,murderers,etc,etc,etc...

(2)Phil.3:21,...(the way in which this word, "vile" is used,is different.)
The Strongs # is 5014,-----
The verse,20,21,...For our citizenship is in heaven,from which also we look for the Saviour,the Lord Jesus Christ,(vs.21),who shall change our
[ vile] [ lowly] body,that it might be fashioned like His glorious body,
according to the working by which He is able to subdue all things unto Himself.
* in this the word vile, or lowly is being used,...
It is the same word used,when The Mother of Jesus,is magnifying the Lord,
#5014,..(Lk.1:48),.. "For He hath regarded the ' low ' estate of His handmaiden;...
Also Eph.4:2, (same # lowliness),and Phil.2:3

I know you have been talking in the Old Testament,..I did not check there,
But wanted to look in the New Testament.

Yes, we have a Lively Hope,..and aren't we so very thankful ?
Blessings Joe,
elizabeth

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Another John Owen gem on the subject:

“And hence we may see what wisdom is required in the guiding and management of our hearts and ways before God. Where the subjects of a ruler are in feuds and oppositions one against another, unless great wisdom be used in the government of the whole, all things will quickly be ruinous in that state. There are these contrary principles in the hearts of believers. And if they labor not to be spiritually wise, how shall they be able to steer their course aright? Many men live in the dark to themselves all their days; whatever else they know, they know not themselves. They know their outward estates, how rich they are, and the condition of their bodies as to health and sickness they are careful to examine; but as to their inward man, and their principles as to God and eternity, they know little or nothing of themselves. Indeed, few labor to grow wise in this matter, few study themselves as they ought, are acquainted with the evils of their own hearts as they ought; on which yet the whole course of their obedience, and consequently of their eternal condition, doth depend.”

OJ

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Yes, we have a Lively Hope,..and aren't we so very thankful ?

Indeed we do Elibeth, in spite of our own vileness! Now THAT is grace!!!

The vileness of the saint is simply the estimation he has of himself after having been humbled in the presence of God, such that he can say no good thing about himself. If there is anything good to be said it is to be left to others.

Prov 27:2 Let another man praise thee, and not thine own mouth; a stranger, and not thine own lips.

Same principle in the New Testament

Luke 14:8-11

8 When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;

9 And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.

10 But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.

11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


Or here as well.

1 Cor 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

This is one thing that the natural man simply cannot do, it is the stumblingstone in coming to Christ.

Blessings in return Elibeth,

OJ

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Elibeth

Joe,

Thank you for your kind response.

The Lord bless you as we grow up unto Him,

Who is all deserving of all praise forever and always.

elizabeth

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AdamPaul

You know a great personal testimony on this subject can be found in the Audio book section under Jonathan Edwards. Go to the Biography of David Brainerd Part 1. His testimony on this struggle is a great encouragement. Thank you for sharing, it's so true.

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Here is how Jeremiah Burroughs says it.

"Christ teaches the soul this, so that, as in the presence of God on a real sight of itself, it can say: 'Lord, I am nothing, Lord, I deserve nothing, Lord, I can do nothing, I can receive nothing, and can make use of nothing, I am worse than nothing, and if I come to nothing and perish I will be no loss at all and therefore is it such a great thing for me to be cut short here?' A man who is little in his own eyes will account every affliction as little, and every mercy as great. Consider Saul: There was a time, the Scripture says, when he was little in his own eyes, and then his afflictions were but little to him: when some would not have had him to be King but spoke contemptuously of him, he held his peace; but when Saul began to be big in his own eyes, then the affliction began to be great to him."

OJ

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UNFAILING AND RELENTLESS LOVE.
My favorite song; poem.


"My strength is gone, my nature dies;
I sink beneath your weighty hand.
Faint to revive, and fall to rise;
I fall, and yet by faith I stand.


I stand, and will not let you go, until your name ,
your Nature know.


Lame as I am, I take the prey;
Hell , Earth, and Sin, with ease overcome.
I leap for joy, pursue my way
and as a leaping hart fly home;
through All Eternity to Prove,
YOUR NATURE AND YOUR NAME IS LOVE!"


Charles Wesley.

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vile (vl)
adj. vil·er, vil·est
1. Loathsome; disgusting: vile language.
2. Unpleasant or objectionable: vile weather.
3.a. Contemptibly low in worth or account; second-rate.
b. Of mean or low condition.
4. Miserably poor and degrading; wretched: a vile existence.
5. Morally depraved; ignoble or wicked: a vile conspiracy.
[Middle English, from Old French, from Latin vlis, cheap, worthless; see wes-3 in Indo-European roots.]

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and JUDGE YOURSELVES UNWORTHY of EVERLASTING LIFE, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Job was under the Old Testament of laws and curses. If you obeyed it great, if not, your cursed. The law could not take away the consciousnesses of sin, though they sacrificed and did all the requirements that the law demanded, it never took away the sin, it never took away the consciousness of sin like we have today under the blood Christ.

So yes, a man under such a system can look at himself as vile seeing that his sins were not purged until the day of Christ.

Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

We have a Full Assurance of faith that our hearts have been sprinkled from an evil conscience so that we no longer live in such a vile condition and having to loathe that which Christ has purchased with His precious blood.

We do enough loathing of ourselves in our own strength because our feelings of inadequacies, our short comings and our falling short.

We are no longer falling short of the glory of God if we come to Him by faith through the merits of Jesus Christ. We can touch God now, before we could not because the demands of the law through the flesh weakened our ability to reach God.

Now through the merits and work of the Father through His Son Jesus, we are able to come boldly into the throne room of grace and obtain mercy in the time of need. If we looked upon ourselves with contempt,, there would be no faith to come boldly to the throne room because we'd be ever believing that we have no self worth. Nay, God would have to save us from such a state and encourage us and cause us to be worthy so we can run to Him in full assurance. That alone is a great undertaking because the Church world already feels the burden of condemnation, the sense of being cheap and worthless.

I for one am against the notion that saints need to look at themselves as vile. The saints that I know of in my city already think that way and it's heavily mixed with condemnation. If God were for it, why would He see the need to send me to them to encourage them that they are not vile, that they are not worthless and cheap?

It was a lambs blood that was mopped on the lintels of the doors in Egypt.

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


E
Elibeth


Yes,

The words that am reading ,....the words that you brothers have put forth

by Jeremiah Burroughs,

..David Brainerd,..and Charles Wesley,...they are so good to my taste,

this most beautiful morning that the Lord has gave us to enjoy.

And yes,the Words came up into my spirit this morning,..

* We are to decrease,..and He is to increase

Blessings this day,
elizabeth

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White_Stone

Approved, you said.

"So yes, a man under such a system can look at himself as vile seeing that his sins were not purged until the day of Christ."

and

"I for one am against the notion that saints need to look at themselves as vile. The saints that I know of in my city already think that way and it's heavily mixed with condemnation. If God were for it, why would He see the need to send me to them to encourage them that they are not vile, that they are not worthless and cheap?"


In reply to the first quote. . .

Nothing within man has changed, we still have the same nature. Without the Nature of Jesus Christ indwelling us there is still no good in us.

In reply to the second quote. . .

This is covered very well here: Prov 27:2 Let another man praise thee, and not thine own mouth; a stranger, and not thine own lips.

For myself, I would prefer to be included in the group of Saints you mention in your city. Rather than to be lifting up myself in my own eyes.

Lord willing you will come to see things from the perspective of being at the feet of Jesus.

Kind regards,
white stone

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Whether someone sees themselves one way or the other - their eyes are "still on SELF" and that's where the Church Triumphant stands apart and walks in the "Overcoming" covering of The LORD!

Paul could say to the Saints, "follow me as I follow Christ".

There will be a Triumphant Church that have their eyes on Him alone and not caught into one self 'conscious' state nor the other.

Quotes from The Word and men like Watchman Nee would be beneficial, to learn of the Victorious walk of the redeemed, that know that in their flesh, dwells no good thing - but in Christ - their old man has been crucified with Christ and it is now HIM that dwells and works in and 'through' them ... eyes Off of self entirely and looking unto Jesus, The Author and Finisher of our faith. More than Conquerers through Him that loves us and paid 'that price' to make us new creatures - His Bride - His Body - with eyes off of self and completely on her Beloved.

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For myself, I would prefer to be included in the group of Saints you mention in your city. Rather than to be lifting up myself in my own eyes.
Where did that come from Sister? I hope that wasn't inferred.

When I said that God sends me to them to encourage them, I am saying that in all meekness and sincerity of spirit. I do not go to them having all the answers, I look at them as beloved of God and myself as nothing. I am in my own pit of despair. I hear what other brothers say about me. I hear things like, "he never seems to have a problem, he always has a smile, he's a good brother". People covet my presence, and believe me, I don't know why. If they only knew me. If they only knew what kind of a person I am alone. But that is God for you. He takes what we pray in secret and rewards us openly.

I look at myself as vile, but the scriptures tells me that God does not see us that way. And I struggle to believe that.

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As a Grand-mother with grand-children that I want to see come to know Jesus in His fullness and His Truth by the Whole counsel of GOD's Word and experiential knowledge of HIM .....

Can you picture where the Church would be over these last two thousand years if all that Paul or John or the others that penned the New Testament wrote to the Early Church was ...

"You're vile." and nothing more?

Christianity would have died out before the first year was up [if not sooner] - if that was their "Good News" with nothing more written of what Christ had done for mankind but tell them - "You're vile", nothing more.

Despite how many Authors or Scriptures posted from various sources - that was not ALL that they wrote about our state in Christ.

I've been around these type folks and they do not win one soul to Christ nor do they do anything other than live from day to day to tell "others" that they're vile.

Paul speaks at least twice about those with a false humility.

A person that truly believes that they are vile, sees all others as better than themselves and couldn't even lift their head up to spue out cursings and insults at others, as Joe finds so easy to do.

Hogwash, Joe. If you truly saw yourself as "vile", you'd barely be able to open your mouth, nonetheless judge most of the Christians here by saying that you can't call the most "Brother".

Humility, my foot! You're just an accuser of the brethren and this thread is laughable, considering how you've treated many of us, over the yrs, while claiming to be a humble man by saying that you see yourself as "vile".
Pure laughable hogwash ... nothing more.

Ah, to be a fly on the wall for a week or two of these self-proclaimed "humble because they see themselves as vile" folks. All of the grace that pours out of them to others on a public forum would probably be only the mild side of what we see of them, and their thought life as well.

"From such, turn away." 2 Tim 3:5

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brothagary

im not taking sides here at all

but a verse comes to mind also "where paul calls our bodies vile" these will be changed into glories bodies

So Paul saw himself as in a vile body and called himself the cheif of sinners.

I think since the fall of creation and coruption entering the world we have become vile creatours compared to what we will be we stink ,we fart ,we get rotton teath we get old and feel wreatcherd ,our hair falles out ,we have hormonal problems that effect our moods ,we sweat and stink ,this is vile in ascence and is not gods oridginal creation,,it is courptions ,,and that is a vile things,sin is a vile thing we are still prone to fall into sin and argure that is a vile thing. tho we have been given a holy spirit which is pure and perfect we are still in a vile earthern vesel.

we still fall short of gods glory ,its vile

ohhh how terable is sin that jesus was slaughterd on the cross for our sin "OUR SIN" that is vile on our part


there is a scence that the saints still vile in body and in actions but haliluya we have a savour that is not vile and he laid his perfect body and life on the cross as propisation for our vilness ,and imputes is perfectness to us and takes our vilness and cancels it out on the cross ,OHHH WHAT A SAVOUR WE HAVE BRETHERN

IM NOT SAYING THIS TO agree with joe

i dont like the spirit joes has ,,sorry joe

but there is truth in our vilness ,and it should only act as a catalass to cause us to praise god more ,and glorafie his holyness

but we long to be fully conformed to the image of christ ,,when we see him we will be like him for we will see him as he is. in the twimkling of an eye come lord come

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pilgrim777

Hey Gary,

Strongs says this about the word "vile" in the scripture you were using.

G4983
σῶμα
sōma
so'-mah
From G4982; the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively: - bodily, body, slave.

"very wide application".

The human body is good and that is what God said after He created it. Fleshly and Carnal desires are not.

The human body is what God has chosen to transmit His truth and love through. First through Jesus and now through His Church (via the Holy Spirit). He uses the human body to preach the Gospel.

Following after the flesh should be differentiated from the human body. The human body by itself is a beautiful and wonderful creation.

The human body is just our container, or carton. It is harmless until it is yielded, either to Satan or the Holy Spirit. You can yield it to holiness or sin, righteousness or unrighteousness.

Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Catholic in the Dark Ages thought the human body was evil and sought to torture it into submission (flagellation, penance, etc.). The Battle is Spiritual not with flesh and blood can apply to this subject, also.

Pilgrim


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Hi Brother Gary. We know and have posted several times over the years what Paul had said and we say of ourselves, that we know that in our flesh, dwells no good thing.
I also don't believe that Joe is referring to our physical body.
What has broken the camel's back with some of us - maybe you weren't here for - but it was the accusations being thrown at those that believe in obedience to Him and His Word. One such thread was about the Lordship doctrine.
I don't believe that these Biblical beliefs need a 'name' with '-isms or -ships' at the end of them - but they were discussing mere obedience to Him as our LORD, which is what I witnessed and experienced - where Joe showed us his true colors. We were mocked and belittled for believing in obedience to Him and His Word. Not just on that one thread, but other threads as well - whenever obedience would be mentioned by some of us. Mainly some Brothers got a lot of Joe's railing against them for believing these things - going way beyond any acceptable reproofs, but cursing the vast Majority of us all to Hell - literally.

As far as I'm concerned, that is a fulfullment of the entire chpt of 2 Tim 3, and not just verse 5 that I quoted part of above.
Only wolves in sheep's clothing would tear at His Sheep in the fashion that this man has.

Vile is only mentioned 3 times since Christ came to earth and only Romans 1 comes close to what some of us have seen on these threads.

That's it.

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As stated in the beginning, this thread was for those who see themselves as vile. For those who are above this there is really no need for you to come back to the thread. You have taken your seat at the front of the wedding, and none here will move you. 

The thread is for those who see themselves as Spurgeon, Wesley, Watson, Ironside, Owen, Job, Paul, Isaiah, and others saw themselves. 

It has always been a strange thing within christendom, often the chaff sees itself as wheat, and the wheat sees itself as chaff. Much time is spent on dealing with the former, but here we are comforting the latter....

OJ

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pilgrim777

I certainly see myself vile in respect to ME. Christ is not vile, Christ in me is not vile. But, I, me, my am always vile. What credit can I take for anything?

So, what's the big problem here? Doesn't everyone believe this about THEMSELVES? Christ makes all the difference. We are containers and He is the contents. When we try to be the contents we are vile.

Pilgrim

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Pro 29:25 The fear of man bringeth a snare: but whoso putteth his trust in the LORD shall be safe.


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I think brother Compton's story from earlier on in this thread bears repeating..........

"One day at Synagogue, a Rabbi stands up before the congregation and cries aloud "Lord, I am nothing!" The Chazzan, not to be outdone, then stands up and also cries aloud, "Lord, I am nothing!" Feeling the need to be a good exemplar for the congregation, the Gabbai rises and proclaims, "Lord, I am nothing!" Meanwhile, in the rear of the synagogue, a janitor was so moved that he drops to his knees next to his mop and bucket, and with tearful trembling prays quietly, "Lord, I am nothing!". The Rabbi, upon spying the kneeling janitor, elbows the Chazzan and Gabbai, and under his breath says to them indignantly, "Look who thinks he's nothing."

You see how this story reveals how coniving the sin of pride is? The more a man speaks of his own vileness the more pride floods in. The man who has encountered the manifest presence of God will not only know that he is undone, he will be taken up by the majesty and the glory of God and he will marvel how God could love him, but the revelation is that he does.

I have seen people competing to see who was the most vile, usually they add the word " worm,' so we have " vile worms." I have even seen people crawl under pews to prove that they were more vile than the next guy. JIG is right, the focus is always on the man, always. Jesus and the beauty of His holiness and the joy of His love is lost to people who go down this road. Just once I would like to hear some of the folks who have the ministry of vileness talk about the joy of the Lord and His glory.There is always balance in the saints who are led by the Holy Spirit. The good news of the Gospel is that Jesus our lord came to heal the brokenhearted, to seek and to save the lost, to set at liberty the captives because our Father so loved the world, while they were yet in their sin, that He sent His precious Son to die on the cross for the whosoever. Praise the Lord for His full Gospel.....bro Frank


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pilgrim777

That is very good Frank!

Act 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

We are converted from “sinner” to “saint,” as the living Lord Jesus becomes our life, and we become man as God intended man to be.

“I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me” (Phil. 4:13)

May we cease to be preoccupied with death and focus on the LIFE that is ours in Jesus Christ.

Pilgrim


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I certainly see myself vile in respect to ME. Christ is not vile, Christ in me is not vile. But, I, me, my am always vile. What credit can I take for anything? 

So, what's the big problem here? Doesn't everyone believe this about THEMSELVES?

Actually Pilgrim as you can see by the thread very few people actually see themselves this way. 

Since he keeps popping his head in to a thread meant for those who see themselves as vile let's take Frank as an example. He gives himself a user name of 'Appolus', who in the scriptures was called 'mighty in the scruptures'. So Frank, rather than taking his place at the back of the wedding, barges down in front to take a seat next to Appolus with a presumptuous self-commendation. In doing this he denies the scriptures that that tell us not to commend ourselves but leave that to others, and therefore forfeits his title.

There are other good examples as well, but from the war going on so far you should get the idea that this is not a popular subject, it hits to close to the heart for most people. In days of old this was preached from most pulpits, today people only want to hear good things about their religious ways. The end-times apostasy that began over a century ago is now almost entirely worked through professing christendom, it's deep, very deep....these kind of subjects bring that out.


OJ

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pilgrim777

I don't know Joe. Your remarks concerning Appolus and others sound like a severe and unrighteous judgment to me. Something just doesn't "feel" right in the Spirit to me about all of this.

How do you reconcile Paul's seemingly contradictory statements?

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief ." I Tim. 1:15.

I suppose if you just take this verse from Paul you will never get beyond being a sinner. But Paul commended himself, too.

Paul says this:

2 Cor 11:5 For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.

And here, though he is the least of all saints, he still describes himself as a saint.

Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

Here Paul is saying that he is a "holy Apostle". This does not sound like "chief of sinners".

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Paul told the Thessalonian church, "Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe." I Thes. 2:10. I notice that he did not add "chief of sinners" here. I wonder how the Thessalonians would have reacted.

Here, the "Chief of Sinners" is talking about being perfect. "Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded." Phil. 3:15

And, how could Paul have the audacity to say that a crown of righteousness is laid up for him?
"For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith; henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day; end not to me only, but unto them also that love His appearing." 2 Tim. 4:6-8.

It's all about context, Joe and I don't witness to what you are doing to your brethren. It is also about knowing someone's heart. Do we have that knowledge?

Kindly,
Pilgrim

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brothagary

i agree with what you said pilgrim about our self being vile ,but christ being perfect and he lives in us by his perfect spirit ,,,,,it is all about contex defenitly ,,supurgen and weasly knew that ,,,,,im not advocating sin at all ,i believe in real repentance from sin ,,,,but tht was not the point i was empemisising ,,,,,,,\\

vile might have a wide definition it still doesnt justafie defining away the meaning in the contex spoken

what god created was good till sin entered into the world and death through sin ,,and couruption permeated all things ,,,,,,,,can we call coruption in the world good ,,,,,i think not ,,, till we recieve our glorius bodies in the resarection of the just,,,,we are still in bodies of coruption ,,,,
the whole of creation grone in courption waiting for the revalation of the son of god ,, the death and destuctions and plages are not good but a vile reaction to sin

i see you and frank as presious brothers in christ coverd in the blood i dont see things like joe ,,,,so please dont put me in the same boat

the blood clenses us of all wages of coruption , tho we will remain in thses vile bodies till he comes or we sleap ,,brother im saying that in the contex that paul was speaking in , i believe

what do you think he meant when he said our bodies are vile

blessings and love

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brothagary

hi jesus is god ,i also believe in obedience to him and his word which is law toward christ

i seen joes conversation ,,he said i was worst then hitler once ,,,,i dont say what i said in the contex of how joe sees him self and others with that spirit,,,,no i see that as a problem too and dont stand in the same cort as he ,,,,,,more so with those of old and of new ,,weasly spurgen, whitfield ,edwards ,brainhard,, washer and even ravenhill

sis i believe in ,,,im not sure if im using the right word ,,,, inigma ,,,,,, where both are true the saint is vile still ,,but holy set apart new creations

god is sovern ,and works all things according to the councel of his will ,,yet man has a will to choose accoring to the councel of his own partial free will

god can cause a nation to invaid and destory another nation through his souvern judment ,,,yet at the same time a nation chooses to over take and destory that nation

some one can do us evil ,yet god can mean it for good ,as said joseph

i see two sides to the coin yet one coin

so to see my self as vile ,and chief of sinneres,not worthy to be called a saint ,and at the same time holy ,new creation transformed ,bornagain ,indwelt by the holy spirit ,,,,repentent ,and faithfull ,,clensend washed in the blood of god ,,and righteous, gentile , loving ,gifted , hating sin ,,,is nomale to me

and is a balanced way to see my self ,,not to mention see other as better then i

for me this i see is bibilical truth

it was when i was a wretherd abomniable sinner in gods eyes ,,,i saw my self as a good person in my own self ..and that is an abomination ,,,,,,,,,now is is all grace ,every good gift comes down from the father of lights with whom there is no varation in turning ,,befor iwas alll flesh and evil to the core of my being every thing i did was utter filthy rags ,,but now im a new creation,,old things have passed away ,behold all things are new especialy that way i see my self ,,i praise god for this revalation of his holiness ,which showed me my wretcherdness and unholyness

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pilgrim777

Amen, Brother Gary,

I am not putting you in any "boat". I appreciate your writings and your heart for the Lord.

Pilgrim

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brothagary

and i truly enjoy reading you powerfull writings too pilgrim ,,god bless us all with unity of the spirit in the bond of peace

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pilgrim777

Amen, bro. We don't always say the correct words or even interpret one another correctly all the time, do we? Love believes all things so we should always be generous in spirit when talking to each other through this limited medium of non-verbal communication. The Lord knows,,, your prayer is my prayer, too. We are all learning. I know I am. I am constantly being challenged to keep a teachable and humble spirit. I have failed in this from time to time and I appreciate those who forgive and don't hold anything against me. It keeps the lines of communication open so that we can continue to learn together.

Pilgrim

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brothagary

AMEN

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sermonindex

I think good things can come out of attacks and the last few posts prove that. Gary, you are a precious brother in Christ as is Pilgirm and many of the saints on this site, and I boldly call them saints and children of the Living God. You guys are priests in a royal priesthood. We dont always get it right and none of us has a perfect theology but whether its Jig or Gary or Pilgirm or Diane or Steve or Greg or Alan or Mike or Paul, so many others, they are all precious in His sight. Every true saint knows in their hearts how far they are from being like Christ, but they strive towards that high calling. They know that they would be nothing without their Lord, but they also know that they are redeemed by the blood of the lamb and that is something to rejoice in, praise the Lord. The joy of the Lord is our strength, let us rejoice in our salvation today and may the love of God fill the heart of Joe today.........bno Frank

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Pilgrim

Paul is a beautiful study on this, and I have posted much before on it. When Paul says “sinners of whom I am chief” he claims it present tense as also not a whit behind the chiefest of the apostles, yet considering himself the least of the apostles. Why? Because Paul and only Paul can rightly claim that title. His sin AFTER salvation was against the most grace ever shown to a man! The more grace a man is shown the greater his sin against God, and since no man was ever shown more grace than Paul, no man can take that title from him. He alone is chief of sinners! Those who have been shown little or no grace cannot see themselves in the same light because one needs the light of God on the matter to see. Now Paul as chief of sinners, is ALSO of the holy apostles, the difference is that the holiness he proclaimed was not his own but that of Christ. This is where an understanding of the two natures of the believer is required to go further. In Paul were two natures, one that was his own which was entirely vile, and another that was Christ’s which was entirely holy. Christ’s nature in a believer, though imputed to a believer is still OWNED by Christ, it is not the believer’s. The believer is instructed to submit his own nature (considered the old one) to the nature of Christ (considered the new nature), because these two will war against each other until the believer dies. That is what the Bunyan’s ‘The Holy War’ was about.


Now Frank, come on be honest, you know that what was pointed out was just a blatantly obvious truth that someone who truly was ‘mighty in the scriptures’ would be able to see in an instant. I agree that the hard part can sometimes be admitting it, but that is only because one wants to hold on to a reputation. You need to know though that the person who wants to hang on to his good reputation, must do so at the expense of the reputation of God. When one finally places their reputation at the cross, they find no need to defend it, or have any concern about it because they have given it away. That is the lesson of becoming nothing in Christ that Burroughs was speaking about.


OJ

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sermonindex

Gary

Paul is even worse than you, me or Hitler, that is how he could claim the title CHIEF of sinners. His sin AFTER salvation was against more grace than you, me, or Hitler were ever shown.

OJ

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sermonindex

Hi guys, you will notice that i do not reply directly to Joe as he has already stated that I am not saved. Apparently there are only two people saved on this forum, Joe being one of them and the person that invited Joe here too, well I guess, to save us. So I really do not see the fruit in debating with Joe, but I would urge love and prayer.

On the plus side, Joe told me that if he is mistaken and I am actually saved then it is a reproach for which I will receive a blessing for in heaven. I would say that I have already been blessed. It is a samll thing for someone to say I do not Jesus :) It would be like saying I do not know my wife. It just creates a saddness in me.

I admit to smiling when Joe accused me of pride when choosing the name appolus. I took the name just a few years after coming to Christ because this person apollos needed to be taught more perfectly:) I am sure that Joe would agree that I need to be taught more perfectly.....bro Frank

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Elibeth

My dear and precious bro. Joe,

You said, "Paul is worse than you,me or Hitler,that is how he claimed
The title CHIEF of sinners.His sin AFTER salvation was against more
grace than you,me or Hitler were ever shown."

How can I say this ?

No,no,no,....please NO
Paul was talking about before his conversion,...when he thought he was right in what he was doing,...BUT he was oh so wrong....beating up the Saints,...killing them,..draging them in,that is when he was the CHIEF of sinners.
But then God sent His GRACE upon Paul,..

* GRACE
* " The DEVINE enflence upon the heart, "
And Paul then sought " the kingdom of God, and His righteousness. "
Remember,what he said,when grace drawed him to the Lord,..."WHAT WOULD THOU HAVE FOR ME TO DO LORD ? "

* GRACE
* And Grace' reflection in the life,...( the doing of the Word )
He Repented, ..and turned completely around and started following the Lord.
Remember,...he said a lot about ' this Grace ' ,...he did not take this Grace in vain,..it did it's Devine work in him.
Do you remember all of what Paul said about Grace ?...I do not remember
It all,..I know it was a lot,...I really need to read back up on this.
You may could bring some of this back to remembrance for me ?

From the time ,the grace of God came upon Paul,....he was a changed
man ,..and that same Grace continued the Devine influence upon his heart,..just like He will do for us,to continue to change us.

So now, may our studies be blessed,
elizabeth

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White_Stone

Dear Elizabeth,

In Romans Paul wrote: Chapter 7:14b -- But I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

This does not fit with your picture of Paul. How do you reconcile that?

You also said,"From the time ,the grace of God came upon Paul,....he was a changed
man ,..and that same Grace continued the Devine influence upon his heart,..just like He will do for us,to continue to change us."

If this were so, there would be some Saints who were 'better' than others because they had had more 'change' exerted upon them. Maybe they will get a report card with a grade? Will there be a grade curve? Will some be able to get a passing score for special reasons?

The only good done by any of us is done by Jesus, through us. There is no good in ourselves. We are not even able to praise the Lord except by the Holy Spirit. If it was left up to us, we would have reason to boast of our own abilities. Don't you see that?

Kindly,
white stone

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sermonindex


Sis WhiteStone, it's dangerous to remove Romans 7 from chpts 6 and 8. Paul didn't put those divisions of chpts in his letter to the Romans ... it was one continuous flow.

As far as taking just one verse here or there about how Paul felt about himself - I think that there also - we need to know the whole of His N.T. and not pull verses.

That's where the contention has come from on this thread and others - is when only a few verses are pulled out of context of the minds of the Apostles and leaving the other side of their teachings out.
Learning from a man is dangerous sometimes - unless he can answer the Scriptures that balance out his over-emphasis on his pet verses and if he can do more than quote verses to the saved that were written to or about the unsaved.

This list is not exhaustive but for just a glimpse into the parts that you disagree with our sister over ....


Concerning Paul's guilt and why he said what he did about himself ....

Act 22:4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.

Act 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:
Act 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.


Act 26:9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
Act 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
Act 26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.


1Cor 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, BECAUSE I persecuted the church of God.


Gal 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it

Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, *persecuting the church*; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

How he saw himself as an Apostle .....


2Cor 11:5 **For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.**

2Cor 12:11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you:
*for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles*, though I be nothing.


1Cor 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but *I laboured more abundantly than they all*: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.


Gal 2:6-9 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me: but contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:) and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

Concerning 'us' [and report cards] ....

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


2Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.


Eph 6:8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.


1Pet 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear....


Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot......


Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


In His Peace & Love.

M
mguldner

When we are in the presense of the King we will be put in our place, we must never forget the place we are put. We must always keep in mind that Paul's focus was Spiritual rather than Physical. Where we run into trouble is individuals use the scriptures to chase away their true state and numb the conviction of the Holy Spirit. "We're the King's kids" is a phrase I have heard used and these individuals use such phrases to elevate themselves above "sinners" and completely forget they were once ignorant and very likely still are.

This I believe is what Old Joe is getting at, we must never EVER forget our vile state that is still attached to us as humans. We will live with it till we die and are given glorified bodies. So it would be foolish to elevate something that is beneath the earth.

Where does Joy come in? Not in my standing or my Holiness but the Holiness of Christ Jesus who is my holiness and this doesn't make me a better person above sinners. And that is the difference.

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sermonindex

Where does Joy come in?

No one on this thread has claimed their own righteousness, Matt.
I signed off on one post with Phil 3:7-15 and the others said as much by their own posts - everyone of them.
If you believe that those from page 1 on to pg 9 that have seen "what Old Joe is getting at" and you disagree with them as "self-righteous", than maybe you'd do better to read from page 1 on and see how many that would be.

Easy believism has destroyed the church and many lives and marriages and so has bitter-spirits.

M
mguldner

While I didn't in detail read every single post of this thread, I have had personal conversations with Old Joe and know what page he is on. Many misunderstand what he is getting at by Vileness of the Saint.

If you look at the Holiest men of the past you will find that many of them agree with Old Joe's thought process of vileness or undeserving entitlement.

Take Peter for example, made new in Christ Jesus and was a very close disciple of Christ Jesus, that Christ called him friend. You would think he would honorably die the very same martyrs death. Though he was forgiven and understood the Righteousness of Christ he had Rome crucify him upside down. Surely he would have been okay with a normal cruxifiction had he idenitified himself with Christ and claimed his sainthood then and there. But he didn't.

We must never forget that we are lowly, and we will find our Joy comes from what Christ has done for us, the forgiveness and mercy shown to us. I am no saint but I am a joyfilled sinner because there is mercy and grace for me.

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White_Stone

Ditto to EVERYTHING mguldner said in his post.

Agree with him and Old Joe.

ws

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White_Stone

Hello JiG, I didn't want to leave your reply unanswered.

In the following verses I hear Paul speaking in the 'Present Tense,' not about the Saints he persecuted before his salvation but about issues troubling him in his current state.

Romans 7:15
For that which I do I allow not:
for what I would, that do I not;
but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not,
I consent unto the law that it is good.

7:19
For the good that I would I do not:
but the evil which I would not, that I do.

7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

__________________________________

Concerning 'us' [and report cards] ....

I said
"If this were so, there would be some Saints who were 'better' than others because they had had more 'change' exerted upon them. Maybe they will get a report card with a grade? Will there be a grade curve? Will some be able to get a passing score for special reasons?"

I was speaking of in reference to Elizabeth's words:
"From the time ,the grace of God came upon Paul,....he was a changed man ,..and that same Grace continued the Devine influence upon his heart,..just like He will do for us,to continue to change us."

Guess I did not make that clear enough.

ws

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sermonindex

Hi WS. Many scholars differ on chpt 7 and I do as well. I side with Clarke, Wesley and others that do believe that Paul is using himself as an example of a pre-Gospel person trying to be justified by the law.
I agree because of everything else that he's written.
We'd be going around and around on this - but so do all of the scholars - so I always opt out of that debate and hold what I believe to myself. Reading all of what Paul has written leads me to believe that the man was very secure in his walk with GOD and didn't suffer from sin as some folks would love to think that he did - because if he had - he could never be so hard on it in all of his letters. He was a very secure man in Christ, in other words, he did not serve the law of sin with his flesh - and preached against doing such.


GOD Bless, Sis!


Correction: it was Clarke I had open not Barnes.

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White_Stone

JiG, oh, JiG,

One can not talk with you, you know. You say, "so I always opt out of that debate and hold what I believe to myself." After you wrote that, what did you do? Stated what you believe in such terms to make it appear indisputable.

If only you had done as you said you do. Oh, somehow I seem to have heard these very words being spoken by the Apostle Paul in that disputed Chapter 7 of Romans. But then that can not be, for only a vile person would do such a thing. If the shoe fits, we must convict.

ws

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sermonindex

Read 1Corth 13.

What I meant was, that this Romans 7 debate has been on this forum countless times since I've been hanging around since 2005 and I never would enter those debates, but did tell you what I believe.

Blessings back at ya!

Ann

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sermonindex

I think too in our generation and what we have seen and experienced over the years that we may by fear are keeping ourselves 'down' so that we dare not 'share the glory' of any kind.

It would be prudent that we judge ourselves as to how we view this word 'vile' and the way the saints of old dealt with it and how we apply it to us. The results may astound some of us.

What we should never do is loathe ourself. Paul made the distinction between who we are in Christ Jesus and this flesh. "In me (that is my flesh) dwelleth no good thing". It's this flesh and our connection to it that causes us to cry out, "Oh woe is me, what a vile thing am I."

The flesh has been disconnected spiritually from us, we are no longer under it's power as Paul said, "For in that He died, He died unto sin once: but in that He liveth, He liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

But oh look at what comes after that, So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

What makes this whole thing disgusting is this flesh and the wiles of it trying to lure us away from walking after the Spirit. It's no wonder that such great men of the past all considered themselves to be loathsome because of the flesh factor, but they themselves were not rotten folk, though they had felt like they were.

Paul found that every time that he went to do good, evil was present with him and he cried out, O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

S
sermonindex


How many times did Paul write that we are not to serve the flesh. Wouldn't that make him a hypocrit, if he said he 'serves it'?


It's this "look at self" that's become of the church and misapplying His Word that has watered down what the church was supposed to be - as Paul was the example to follow as he followed Christ.

No power in the church as long as it's eyes are on itself - either bemoaning itself or exalting self because they can't take what He's written for us and eat the whole of it.
No, self finds excuses to stay in it's miserable state.

S
sermonindex

"The same love which fills a man with zeal for God, makes him little, and poor, and vile in his own eyes.” - John Wesley

Quote from the very same John Wesley whom JIG claims to agree with. According to Wesley JIG is missing this love.

Matt has got it though, White Stone too, others not so much.

Frank I see you are defending yourself again, doesn't matter if it is in first, second or third person. BTW Your blog bewrayeth your Apollos comment....


OJ

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mikey2

I would not expect your wife (White_stone) not to agree with you Old_Joe.

Mike

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sermonindex

What is this body of death that the Apostle Paul talked about in Romans 7. Are unregenerate men the ministers of condemnation?These words are found in Paul’s impassioned argument on the reign of the law, which dooms the unregenerate man to continuous disappointment and convinces him of the terrible power of indwelling sin. In ancient times, in some cases, if one committed murder, the actual dead corpse was chained to the guilty one. This was a torture that led to a horrendous death. Can you imagine, chained to a rotting corpse? And yet, this is perfect imagery for the Holy Spirit to use.

If the old man is dead, and if we are forgiven, justified before the throne of Grace, then we walk in freedom, freedom from the curse of the Law. If we do not reckon the old man to be dead then we carry him with us, he is chained to us, even although he is dead and the putrid smell of the rotting corpse of the dead man will get worse and worse. It will take enormous self-effort to drag this corpse around. It is a very sad thing to see with your spiritual eyes, men dragging corpses around with them. It is one thing to have a dead body chained to you, it is quite another to voluntarily drag a corpse around with you when the Son of God Himself has set you free from the law of sin and death. It is very sad to see people whose eyes remain on themselves and and their sin and their vileness and consequently only every talk about whatever the passion of their lives are, themselves and their sin and their ministry of condemnation. This is the opposite of how the prophet felt in the presence of God, how he saw the King of glory high and lifted up, how after having coals of fire sear him he shouts out to God " Here am I , send me." One can only imagine what the ministers of condemnation would make of the prophet being so bold as to say " send me." Or another man of God say " imitate me."

Men are so determined to do it themselves that when a man is saved, that is not the end. He now has to be broken, he has to know that everyone of his efforts will lead to nothing but defeat. It may take one year, it may take fifty years, but every genuine follower of Christ will be broken and when the brokenness comes and total surrender comes, then, and only then do they realize that it is all God and none of them. We are the recipients of mercy and grace, not of wages. And the irony of course is that the man who discovers this, who simply kneels at the feet of Jesus, is the man who is transformed and changed daily into the image of Christ. Its not by might, nor by power, nor is it by our striving nor is it by our efforts, its by our brokenness and its by our surrender and it is by nothing else. This is the righteous man, this is the Holy man….God’s righteousness….God’s Holiness……God’s work, its all His work and it is His good pleasure to do it.

So one man preaches the message of righteousness from a prison cell, the other preaches the message of righteousness from freedom. One preaches from “Oh wretched man that I am,” the other preaches from “There is therefore now no condemnation.” One will enslave the other will liberate. One is focused on sin and condemnation, the other is focused on Jesus. One accuses others of having a license to sin, the other speaks of Jesus. One tells others how bad they are, the other speaks of Jesus. One tells others how Holy he is(although he would never use these actual words, it is veiled in how vile he is, just simply pride with one of its many masks) , the other tells people how Holy Jesus is. One tells people how much he has suffered, the other tells people how much his Jesus suffered. One tells people about the outward appearance, the other tells people that Jesus looks at the inner man. One preaches the sermon of righteousness with the human power of guilt, the other speaks of Christ’s righteousness and the Spirit of conviction works. One judges all according to his own standard, the other says “look to Jesus.” One tells people to cast their eyes upon their sin, the other tells people to cast their eyes upon Jesus. One proclaims himself a prophet, the other says he is simply a voice crying in the wilderness. One stands and proclaims “God, I thank you that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers or even like this tax collector, I fast twice on the Sabbath and I tithe all that I possess, the other thanks God for His mercy and bows his head low and considers others more highly than he considers himself. One thought himself righteous because of his actions, because of his works, the other knew that he stood justified before God because of Jesus. One cries “who will deliver me from this body of death?” the other cries “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain.”

Life or death. Eye is dark and sees all things darkly or the eye is full of light, the light of Jesus which is the life of men. Are you a minister of life? Or, a minister of condemnation that allows you and justifies you taking up residence in Romans 7 and never moving beyond that. Some are Romans 7 dwellers as unsaved pharisees, some are Romans 7 dwellers as brothers passing through, and some are Romans 7 captives, brothers who are stuck in a life-time of no victory, where sin reigns over them and the best that will happen is that thier works will be burned.........bro Frank

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I would not expect your wife (White_stone) not to agree with you Old_Joe.

Mike

Nice try Mikey, but White Stone is not my wife, we don't even live in the same country. She is a sister in Christ though!

OJ

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" We are sure that what Job was forced to say, we may each of us assent unto, whether we be God's children or not; and if we be partakers of divine grace, it becomes a subject of great consideration for us, since even we, although we be regenerated, must exclaim, each one for himself, "Behold, I am vile."" C.H. Spurgeon


"Behold, I am vile!" Job 40:4

JOB did not always think so. While at a distance from God—he could boast, argue, and contend with God! But when brought into the presence of God's holiness—the contrast was so striking, that he sunk down in astonishment, clothed with shame, and filled with self-loathing!

The manifestation of God's glory to a sinner—always produces the same effect!

ISAIAH felt as Job did, and exclaimed, "Woe is me, for I am ruined! My eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty!" Isaiah 6:5

Pride and self-righteousness can never live in God's presence!

The nearer to God—
  the more we discover our depravity,
  the more we loathe ourselves, and
  the more precious does the person and work of Jesus become!

Proud people have never been brought into God's presence!

Only clear, correct and humbling views of SELF—will make Jesus precious to us!

It is only as we see our own vileness—that we shall value the Savior's righteousness!" --James Smith.


So Spurgeon, Owen, Wesley, Ironside, and Smith (note the doctrinal and denominational borders crossed) all preach the same thing in agreement. These were men who KNEW God, and whose ministry followed them. Others here preach something entirely different. This is of course the age of apostasy where this is expected, but the opposition to the old truth really is getting fierce.

OJ

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These were men who KNEW God, and whose ministry followed them.

This indeed is true of them, 'Joe', but the only problem with this thread is that you also are known since you've been here, for your "ministry" here as well.
Had anyone else posted these very same quotes that you have, and those that began this thread - no one would have objected -- but it's the fact that you truly believe that about 99% of the members here are not your Brethren and you treat them with contempt.

The quotes are fine - but we know how viscously you turn on anyone that doesn't agree with you. Extreme viscousness.

Let's be truthful here - you are trying to gather a following and I can say from having emailed with you last year, that that is indeed what you are looking for. I've watched you and so have others and we can see when you're setting your web for yet the another victim.

Your behavior on this forum has been very "vile" and as I already said earlier - if you were the humble man that you profess to be - you could never be as cruel and obnoxious as you've been to so many Brothers and even Sisters.

If you were humble, you also wouldn't think that everyone here is so intellectually lacking that they can't see that you believe that this last post of yours will be read by someone that doesn't know your tactics and some other poor creature will come under your wing - because they don't know you as we unfortunately have come to.
I've seen this action only once before on the net - on another forum - where a man came on with his website to gather a following by quoting other Good men.

Others here preach something entirely different.

The Quotes from the Authors that you've posted are just fine. It's just who's quoting them and all of his own harsh words to many of us here since you've joined.

the opposition to the old truth really is getting fierce.

This site was founded on the Old Paths - but now you've set yourself above the whole of this site as well and not just the members here with this last remark.

If only you did love others, the way He commanded you to, 'Joe'.


Take care, 'Joe'. Take really good care.

M
mguldner



I would not expect your wife (White_stone) not to agree with you Old_Joe.

Mike

Nice try Mikey, but White Stone is not my wife, we don't even live in the same country. She is a sister in Christ though!

Suppose that makes me your son ;)

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Lotis

If anything this thread is vile, and many attitudes on it sickeningly vile, absolutely void of love and compassion. We argue with fools and make ourselves look like fools, anyone who knows the grace extended to us through Christ knows the truth in this debate. The out of context scriptures and quotes run in opposition to the greater over arching reality of the gospel and the character of God as displayed through Christ and expressed by Paul. I don't care what great saint of old is quoted; just because they are a dead hero doesn't make them right.


The humblest thing (and one of the hardest for many) we can do as human beings is agree with God that we are his righteousness, it's pride to disagree with his word on the matter, though many here feel it's more prideful to agree with his word than their own opinion! Old Joe you have a horrible attitude and you need a hug buddy. Much love to all!

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Suppose that makes me your son ;)

Sure Matt, might as well keep it all in the family! ;-)

I wonder if there are any other relatives out there I don't know about??


OJ

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Had anyone else posted these very same quotes that you have, and those that began this thread - no one would have objected.

Now THAT is ABSOLUTELY classic!!! Objecting to the truth for my sake now? Bravo, bravo!!.....see how that works out for you in the end.


OJ

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  Luke 12:51   Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

As anyone who has viewed this thread can see, the Gospel polarizes. It lets none stay in the middle gray ground but moves to divide and divide properly.

OJ

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Lotis writes..........

"If anything this thread is vile, and many attitudes on it sickeningly vile, absolutely void of love and compassion. We argue with fools and make ourselves look like fools, anyone who knows the grace extended to us through Christ knows the truth in this debate. The out of context scriptures and quotes run in opposition to the greater over arching reality of the gospel and the character of God as displayed through Christ and expressed by Paul."

I agree with that Lotis and I apoligise for my own part in keeping it going. My excuse is that I have seen young people, good young people, caught up in the vileness movement and saw all love just seep away from them and it is heartbreaking, but now I take your advice with this last post.........bro Frank

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Compton

If anything this thread is vile

Agreed.

I don't think we need to lock this thread. For those who know they are vile, could they not make such a public show of it?

MC

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I have seen young people, good young people, caught up in the vileness movement and saw all love just seep away from them and it is heartbreaking

Your target and motive was/is good, Brother Frank.

Sis Lotis, your post would read much better on this particular thread if you had left the two times you added "many" out of the good that you wrote - only because by putting that one word in, it sounds too much like what we've been dealing with for quite some time - 'the one against the many' here - this Big family of GOD that we're a part of.

Blessings to you both for your good intentions!

M
mguldner

I am a young people and I am vile but far from seeped of love. My wickedness only causes me to focus on the true source of Love, Christ Jesus. It is always my desire to love with the Love of Christ because my love is well vile. It's selfish and unlovely. My dependance on Christ is what keeps me going.

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pilgrim777

There is much confusion in this thread on what and who a Christian is.

Pilgrim

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There is much confusion in this thread on what and who a Christian is.

Pilgrim

"There is much confusion in this 'forum' on what and who a Christian is."

There, fixed that for you.

As quoted, there has been little confusion on what and who a Christian is in days of old, it's only today that the 'confusion' has arisen. If any one of the preachers quoted actually showed up here, they would be tarred and feathered too, that is just the way it is today. The apostasy is nearly entirely complete, so much so that very few are not 'confused' on what and who a Christian is.


OJ

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I am a young people and I am vile but far from seeped of love.

Matt

Good statement, but just so you know, statements like that will make you an enemy of the state around here. Actually knowing who you are is frowned upon in these here parts.

OJ

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pilgrim777

"There is much confusion in this 'forum' on what and who a Christian is."

There, fixed that for you.

Thank you, Joe.

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sermonindex

"There is much confusion in this 'forum' on what and who a Christian is."

Joe, you're talking about the apostasy and yet one of the main reasons given in His Word for the apostasy is "because iniquity abounds, the love of most will grow Cold" - and yet, when a bunch of us were posting that we desire to obey His Word 'because we love Him', that was when you went on your big rampage against us last year. You mocked the posters desire to obey GOD out of their love for Him alone.

'The one against the many' mentality is the opposite work that quite a number of us have been praying against - as we've been praying for unity on "this forum".
We've come a long way over the yrs but you have set aims to be that cog in the wheel against His Love here among us.

That is part of the apostasy. As much as 2Tim 3 is.


I'll add: GOD forgive you.

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sermonindex

Can someone tell me why this thread is vile?

I hear calls to lock er up! Is it really that bad? I've seen a whole lot worse threads that keep going without being padlocked.

There is scripture that support this, it's not a teaching, it's just something that men go through. It's not something that anyone of us longs to do or be apart of. It's simply a state in which we see ourselves and the wretchedness therein. It's not all the time, there are moments in which we find ourselves in this place and it may be fleeting or it may last for sometime but most of the time we are not.

So why the passion to eagerly denounce?

Did you know that anger only helps solidify a persons stubborn nature?

Did you know a soft word turneth away wrath?

Did you know that love worketh no ill toward it's neighbour?

Did you know that rebuking someone is not tearing them apart, or slandering them in public?

Did you know that we all don't agree on everything and the things that we believe could be wrong or simply misaligned?

Did you know that when we point the finger we are pointing the finger at ourselves as we find ourselves engulfed in the very thing that we have pointed the finger at?

Did you know that if we all met together that we'd see each other differently, and that we'd probably be embarrassed and apologetic? It's easy to squeal our wheels in a neighbourhood that we don't know and be all big and bad and another thing to meet those neighbours to apologize, it's humbling.

Did you know it's better to listen than it is to talk?

Did you know that in listening to other people we begin to understand one another? If we are talking all the time, how can we be listening? God has more to say than we do.

Did you know that we don't love one another?

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Compton

Approved,

Your question is a fair one. I would like to respectfully attempt a constructive answer.

As you have noted, there is established history and doctrine of the topic of whether Christians should see themselves as vile. From Paul calling himself the chief of sinners, to many puritans who practiced unflinching critiques of themselves in their writing, preaching, and prayers, we can see this idea being upheld.

And certainly, even if some don't agree with vileness as an attitude to maintain, all of us, or at least most, can relate to experiencing a "dark night of the soul" where we were confronted with some terrible glimpse at who we really were without Christ. Who here can say they came to Christ out of the goodness of their heart? None, I would venture. Instead we all come to Christ or mature in Christ though a crisis that shatters our ideal illusions about ourselves.

So if we can agree n this point, then why would some call this thread vile? Well, not because of the doctrinal debate.

The thread demonstrates a common problem in many internet forums, where we stop talking about a topic and instead turn our flame throwers on one another in personal attacks. We insinuate that the other party is not a true believer, or that they are of the world, and other unnecessary personal provocations.

I think overall these forums are gracious in their tolerance for a variety of perspectives and convictions. The one thing that triggers "moderation" of a thread is when that thread begins to be characterized by intensely personal attacks. At least that is the guiding policy we try to uphold here.

Even so, this thread is still active. Which, to your point, means that it is not as disrespectful as some doozies have been in the past. Yet there is still the question...why do we have to be even slightly disrespectful to each other to make our points?

Thanks Approved,

MC

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Mike

You are writing this off as though it was ONLY a Puritan thought, but neither Spurgeon, nor Ironside, nor Tozer (quoted below) were Puritans, they were simply Christians.

"In the light of this it is not hard to see why the Christian's attitude toward self is such an excellent test of the validity of his religious experiences.
A good rule is this: If this experience has served to humble me and make me little and vile in my own eyes it is of God; but if it has given me a feeling of self-satisfaction it is false and should be dismissed as emanating from self or the devil."

To be vile in one's own eyes is a Christian thought, because others cannot bear to see themselves this way.

OJ

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Compton

OJ,

In all sincerity I was not writing it off. Within the limited space of two paragraphs I was trying to validate your perspective. My point was that many Christians throughout history, have in common a testimony of agonizing with their own lowliest before the Lord. I only mentioned the Puritans as a well understood example.

So there is a level of agreement between us. And, when there is not agreement, there is a charitable spirit between us.

The gentlest appeal I would make to all of us is to try and recognize the difference between disagreement and disrespect. It is much harder to have conversations like this in writing then in person. (we could at least agree on that!) Although a forum like this can be somewhat impersonal, we are attempting to engage deeply personal subjects! It is a recipe for volatility:)

From time to time I am reminded that the SI forums are not just a place to build my cases, but to build one another. I am embarrased to admit, I barely have an idea of what that might look like in an Internet forum. I know i dont have nearly the experience or wisdom to answer that by myself. But I think it's a question we could answer together.

Thanks Old Joe,

MC

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pilgrim777

Nice post, Mike. I'm certainly with you on your sentiments.

This bears repeating:

"When there is not agreement, there is a charitable spirit between us".

Pilgrim

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twayneb

I have been reading through this thread with some interest and have wanted to weigh in several times but felt I should not at that point. But now I feel like I can put in my two cents on the matter.

The question being debated is whether a saint should see himself as vile in the sight of God. Before the atoning work of Christ I would say yes, although some men, such as King David, had a glimpse of things to come. Time and time again David speaks of his own righteousness before God, and not out of arrogance. His statements are justified by the prophet in 1 Samuel and Luke in Acts when David is called a man after God’s own heart. David understood a righteousness, a right standing before God, that comes as a result of repentance and regeneration. Look at the multitude of prophecies David was given concerning righteousness by faith.

The only picture we have of the born again believer in the New Testament is that of one righteous in God’s eyes. Some have referred to Paul’s statement that he was the chief of sinners. But lets look at that statement in the context of the rest of what Paul is saying rather than pulling it out as a soundbite.

1Ti 1:12-16
(12) And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
(13) Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
(14) And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
(15) This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
(16) Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Paul says I am now a faithful minister whereas I was vile. You see, it was for the purpose of saving people like me, the chief of sinners, that Christ came into this world and I am an example of God’s longsuffering so that others might say, “Wow, if God had mercy on Saul who was a murderer, then God will also have mercy on me.”

When we look at the verse in context we do not see a man seeing himself as vile at all.

How long would the list me if we tried to enumerate the scriptures that speak to the righteous nature of the born again believer. One simply has to look up the words righteousness, righteous, saint, etc. in a concordance and then write down each scripture that speaks to the righteous standing of the believer to be convinced of how God sees us.

True humility is not self debasement. True humility is thinking not of self at all. It is readily accepting and proclaiming what it is that God says about us regardless of how we feel about or see ourselves. Humility might be thought of as the obedience of self-image and self-thought to God. When we read that God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us so that we might be made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, we should say, “Yes Lord. I feel like an unworthy worm, but because You have declared me righteous I accept that perspective and proclaim that I am righteous.”

We cannot say that because some men of old saw themselves as vile that they were right or that we should do the same. We do not know those men other than their writings, and we cannot always see the true spiritual condition of a man through writings alone. My writing may sound pious, but do you know my life?

That being said, I have found that often those who view themselves as vile and continually cast that opinion upon themselves are those who struggle with trying to please God in their own power or strength. (Please do not assume I am referring to anyone on SI when I say this. It has been my observation over the years.) If they can only see themselves as vile then they can put themselves in an emotional state that will remind them always of their proximity to hell and help them to discipline their actions. This never bears good fruit. But to grow in the righteousness that we have been given. To allow righteousness to bear the good fruit of holiness is the key.

We need to see ourselves as God sees us, righteous and truly Holy.

M
MaryJane

by twayneb on 2012/4/1 4:33:17

True humility is not self debasement. True humility is thinking not of self at all. It is readily accepting and proclaiming what it is that God says about us regardless of how we feel about or see ourselves. Humility might be thought of as the obedience of self-image and self-thought to God. When we read that God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us so that we might be made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, we should say, “Yes Lord. I feel like an unworthy worm, but because You have declared me righteous I accept that perspective and proclaim that I am righteous.”

We cannot say that because some men of old saw themselves as vile that they were right or that we should do the same. We do not know those men other than their writings, and we cannot always see the true spiritual condition of a man through writings alone. My writing may sound pious, but do you know my life?

That being said, I have found that often those who view themselves as vile and continually cast that opinion upon themselves are those who struggle with trying to please God in their own power or strength. (Please do not assume I am referring to anyone on SI when I say this. It has been my observation over the years.) If they can only see themselves as vile then they can put themselves in an emotional state that will remind them always of their proximity to hell and help them to discipline their actions. This never bears good fruit. But to grow in the righteousness that we have been given. To allow righteousness to bear the good fruit of holiness is the key.

We need to see ourselves as God sees us, righteous and truly Holy.
________________

Thank you for coming and sharing this. I was always led to understand that before we came to CHRIST we are sinners, lost and completely corrupt but "after" coming to JESUS, it is no longer I that leave but JESUS who lives in me so when the Father looks upon us HE does not see the lost and corrupt sinner, HE sees HIS son!

Apart from CHRIST, I am nothing, but in JESUS I am a saint! Saved and made a new creation in HIM, by HIS blood and sacrifice.

God Bless
maryjane

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White_Stone

twayneb, May I ask how you reconcile Romans 7:15-25 with what you posted?

Romans 7:
15 For that which I do I allow not:
for what I would, that do I not;
but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not,
I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it,
but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,)
dwelleth no good thing:
for to will is present with me;
but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not:
but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not,
it is no more I that do it,
but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that,
when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members,
warring against the law of my mind, and
bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God;
but with the flesh the law of sin.

For myself, I know I am incapable of any good thing. However, the marvelous Spirit of my God Jesus Christ has come to dwell within me. I draw strength (by faith) and comfort from the Apostle Paul's statement, Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

This awareness of my inabilities is not natural to my nature. It fights the recollection of it at every occasion, seeking to lift up self. The evil one is so very tricky, be very careful. He is much smarter than we are. In my heart I can say, because I am vile, incapable of doing good. Any good done by this body is not of me. When I receive my new body and am with Jesus in the place He is preparing for us, then I will be righteous but not in this lifetime. That is what I see this thread trying to convey. We should exercise caution and not jump the gun on claiming righteousness or we can miss the boat.

Kind regards,
ws

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TwayneB

How long would the list me if we tried to enumerate the scriptures that speak to the righteous nature of the born again believer. One simply has to look up the words righteousness, righteous, saint, etc. in a concordance and then write down each scripture that speaks to the righteous standing of the believer to be convinced of how God sees us.

This is pretty explicit on the matter.

“There is none righteous, no not one.”

David as do New Testament believers had a righteousness that was not his own. It belonged to another and was imputed to him. Neither you nor I have a physical righteousness of our own to claim either, the only righteousness that we can claim is that of Christ, but it still is HIS righteousness, not ours. For the sake of HIS righteousness believers are COUNTED righteous, but as per Romans 3:10 none are actually righteous. That section of scripture (Romans 3:10-12) kills all hope of a righteousness ingrained in self.


If they can only see themselves as vile then they can put themselves in an emotional state that will remind them always of their proximity to hell and help them to discipline their actions. This never bears good fruit.

This nothing to do with emotion, just simple fact, and it has born good fruit for centuries. Even up to the time of Tozer, only now is it being rejected.


We need to see ourselves as God sees us, righteous and truly Holy

We just need to see ourselves as we are.

John 2:24-25 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

And then the work continued of getting man to see what was in himself.

ETA

Rom 4:3-8 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

David's righteousness was the same as Abraham's and is the same as mine, not because of what I do, but only because of what I believe. And in the sake of all who believe, this believing is not a physical righteousness but is only COUNTED for righteousness. That is GRACE!!


OJ

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Although a forum like this can be somewhat impersonal, we are attempting to engage deeply personal subjects!

Aye, but without getting there, we may well leave someone content in a state as an ‘Almost Christian”, who can talk about any subject with the exception of the deep matters of the heart; which is not a chance I am prepared to take. Much rather have someone hate my guts (probably succeeding a little too much with that part) than coddle them off to hell with flattery.

The TOC from Matthew Mead’s “The Almost Christian Discovered”

Question I. How far may a man go in the way to heaven, and yet be but almost a Christian?

Section I. A man may have much knowledge, much light; he may know much of God and his will, much of Christ and his ways, and yet be but almost a Christian.
Section II. A man may have great and eminent gifts, yea, spiritual gifts, and yet be but almost a Christian.
Section III. A man may have a high profession of religion, be much in external duties of godliness, and yet be but almost a Christian.
Section IV. To come yet nearer; a man may go far in opposing his sin, and yet be but almost a Christian.
Section V. A man may hate sin, and yet be but almost a Christian.
Section VI. A man may make great vows and promises—he may have strong purposes and resolutions against sin, and yet be but almost a Christian.
Section VII. A man may maintain a strife and combat against sin in himself, and yet be but almost a Christian.
Section VIII. A man may be a member of the church of Christ, he may join himself to the people of God, partake with them in all ordinance, and share of all church privileges, and yet be but almost a Christian.
Section IX. A man may have great hopes of heaven, great hopes of being saved, and yet be but almost a Christian.
Section X. A man may be under great and visible changes, and these wrought by the ministry of the word, and yet be but almost a Christian, as Herod was.
Section XI. A man may be very zealous in the matters of religion, and yet be but almost a Christian.
Section XII. A man may be much in prayer—he may pray often, and pray much; and yet be but almost a Christian. So did the Pharisees, whom yet our Lord Christ rejects for hypocrites.
Section XIII. A man may suffer for Christ in his goods, in his name, in his person; and yet be but almost a Christian.
Section XIV. A man may be called of God, and embrace this call, and yet be but almost a Christian.
Section XV. A man may have the spirit of God, and yet be but almost a Christian.
Section XVI. A man may have faith, and yet be but almost a Christian.
Section XVII. A man may go further yet: he may possibly have a love to the people of God, and yet be but almost a Christian.
Section XVIII. A man may obey the commands of God, yea, and many of the commands of God, and yet be but almost a Christian.
Section XIX. A man may be sanctified, and yet be but almost a Christian.
Section XX. A man may do all, as to the external duties and worship, that a true Christian can; and, when he hath done all, be but almost a Christian.

OJ

C
Compton

Old Joe,

From my perspective, there are some spurious connections drawn here between the dfficulty of personal topics, flattery, and "The Almost Christian."

Nevertheless, I do feel that defining what seperates an "Almost" from an "Altogether" Christian is the honest burden in your heart for this thread. It is a discussion with great importance!

Consider John Wesley's sermon of the same name,"The Almost Christian". First off, none would accuse John Wesely of ducking his own vileness; if any man was brutally objective with himself, it was John Wesely. Yet, he concluded his sermon by defining the "Altogether Christian", not in terms of vileness but in terms of justification, grace, redemtion, peace, rejoicing, hope, and love acordingly:

"May we all thus experience what it is to be, not almost only; but altogether Christians; being justified freely by his grace, through the redemption that is in Jesus; knowing we have peace with God through Jesus Christ; rejoicing in hope of the glory of God; and having the love of God shed abroad in our hearts, by the Holy Ghost given unto us!"

I do not think the arguments here are over our response to "vileness" but over our response to the Gospel. Admitting our iniquity is a precious doorway to the cross, but it is not the Gospel. I can believe in my heart of hearts that I am the most vile creature to have ever lived, and still be eternally lost and separated from God. Seeing all my vileness layed out like a dissected frog under a microscope may make me sorrowful and horrified, but still only an "Almost Christian."

Still, we must admit that even after we are a Christian we may still be recovering from the destructive effects of sin. We may feel as dirty as we were before, either because of the knowledge of own actions or those of people in our lives. Such horrible scars in our inward parts may indeed be vile, but they are no longer our indentity in Christ.

As we walk through this world, some of us may indeed continue to feel dirty and stained. And so we have a need for washing after the blood, but not in the same manner as before the blood.

"Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.” “Then, Lord,” Simon Peter replied, “not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!” Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean."

So our sense of vileness can be met by Jesus and other spiritual saints by their ministry; not just reminding you of your vileness, but washing your feet with the ministry of the word. Perhaps we feel we must continue to remind ourselves of our "vileness" every minute of every day, just to remind ourselves we need Christ every minute of every day. Amen. Even so, are we not also bound by God's Word to remind ourselves of the justification, grace, redemption, peace, rejoicing, hope, and love we have with God every minute of every day?

None of this is offered as an argument or belittlement to any other perspective. I am only discussing the matter as someone who acknowledges the guilt the bible abscribed to me before Christ, as someone who knows something about feeling shame and guilt, and as someone who has walked a short time in the peace of the Lord.

MC

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sermonindex


None of this is offered as an argument or belittlement to any other perspective. I am only discussing the matter as someone who acknowledges the guilt the bible abscribed to me before Christ, as someone who knows something about feeling shame and guilt, and as someone who has walked a short time in the peace of the Lord. 

We have some grade 1 page 1 issues, and then grade 1 page 2 issues. This thread was the grade 1 page 1 of Christianity, which if we don't get past we didn't go to page 2.

Some see themselves as vile only, that is when we get to page 2. 

To err and be an 'almost' Christian, one could consider themselves 'only' as vile, it is just as great an error as considering oneself as 'only' beloved. The Christian is BOTH vile AND beloved at the same time, THAT is grace!! To deny either is the error of the 'almost' Christian. 


OJ

M
mguldner

There is a song that I sing that is based on the Song of Solomon it was written by Sarah Edwards, but the chorus goes.

Though I'm poor You say I'm lovely
Though I'm dark You say I'm beautiful.

This song acknowledges the fact that yes we are undesirable but by HIS grace Christ desires us.

In the times of Solomon, to have dark complexion was an undesirable thing because it meant you have worked in the sun long hours. Pale complexion was a mark of wealth and beauty. The bride in the Song of Solomon exclaims I'm dark! but you still call me lovely and beautiful.

This was the Love and Grace of Solomon to look beyond his beloved's undesirable features. This is what Christ does with us, we are undesirable but by Grace we are desired.

S
sermonindex

David's righteousness was the same as Abraham's and is the same as mine, not because of what I do, but only because of what I believe. And in the sake of all who believe, this believing is not a physical righteousness but is only COUNTED for righteousness. That is GRACE!!
Abraham yes, David no. David's righteousness and Abraham's righteousness were not the same. Abraham and ours is the same, but David is not.
David was under law and the law demanded that they practise it in order to be righteous. Their faith was wrapped up in what they did in the flesh, but our faith is wrapped up in Christ in what He did.
Because of Him because of His righteousness we have been made righteous by faith, but for David all those that died under law it was not so, faith was shut up between the time the law was given and when Christ came.
When the BRANCH came faith sprouted because life had returned. David sat under the shadow of death, and in order to maintain his righteousness he had to keep performing the law. Grace was meted out to certain individuals, it was not freely given like we have today. Their salvation was not by faith, it was by practising the law, there is no faith in law, no righteousness by faith. It stands alone by itself demanding that it be obeyed in order to be righteous. But thanks be to God that our Big Brother Jesus fulfilled it's requirements and has set us free from the act of having to obey it. Faith cometh now by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
This is not a new concept but an old thing renewed. Before the law, certain men heard the voice of God and believed and because of that they were made righteous by faith. After the law and before Christ if men wanted to be righteous they had to go through the requirements of what the law demanded.
Thank God for grace! Amen!

S
sermonindex

Approved

You might have skipped over this one a bit but it clearly recognizes David's righteousness is by faith (note vs 6-8). Good thing too because with his adultery, murder and the like David certainly didn't keep the law, but he is certainly among the saints by faith. 

Romans 4

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight...

  Galatians 2:16   Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, ....by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Not Abraham, not David, not Isaiah, not Paul not anyone. 

OJ

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sermonindex

This was the Love and Grace of Solomon to look beyond his beloved's undesirable features. This is what Christ does with us, we are undesirable but by Grace we are desired.

Exactly!!!

As quoted earlier the understanding of BOTH our vileness and our belovedness grows as we get closer to God, making Christ ever more precious to us.

"The nearer to God—
  the more we discover our depravity,
  the more we loathe ourselves, and
  the more precious does the person and work of Jesus become!"

OJ

P
pilgrim777

"The nearer to God—
the more we discover our depravity,
the more we loathe ourselves, and
the more precious does the person and work of Jesus become!"

This is so true.

The more I just want to behold Him because there is nothing else worth looking at or for.

Even in my brothers and sisters who I no longer know after the flesh (and I don't want to know after the flesh), I am looking for Jesus in them, His Spirit, His grace, His character. He manifests Himself in vessels of flesh.

Wondrous and amazing!

Pilgrim

E
Elibeth

White Stone

I will now try to answer some of the things you asked.

As for the statements Paul made in Rom.7:14-25,..I do not understand
all things,...(he may have been talking of his foremer life,I do not know.)

I DO Know, that the Holy Spirit has came to do a WORK in our lives,
through the Grace of God.

Let me give a little example:Jesus,..it says in Jn.,was full of Grace, (He was full of God drawing Him to Himself.,..Grace has power,.it is a Devine Drawing,..Jesus did / said / spoke,ONLY what God showed / told Him.
( It was THAT Strong in Him.)

Jesus said,it is the Father that did the WORKS.( because whatever the Father showed / told Him,He did. It was the Fathers work,He just was obedient .
Same goes for us that is the work the Holy Spirit has come to do in us.

So I do know that Paul,when he was converted,made a complete turn,was filled with the Spirit of God,...and I believe,with all my heart , and through his testamonies that he walked pleasing to God ....being Led by the Spirit of the Living God.,...a follower of Jesus Christ.

Because,we must read on farther,..
Chap.8:1,..There is therefore,Now no more condemnationTO THEM who
Walk NOT after the FLESH,but after the SPIRIT.

Verse 2,'For the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus,hath made me Free
From the law of Sin and Death.(because the Life of God had came into Paul,..the Power of the Living God.)
(note,in this next verse,he says ,the law was weak and could not work the things of God in us, but God sent His Son,..and His Son sent back the Holy Spirit into our hearts,.Power,..an enablement,..that the righteousness of God might be worked in us....the Holy Spirit which Paul had already received.
Verse 4,That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled IN US,WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH,BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.
Verse 5,they that are after the FLESH Do Mind the Things of the FLESH;
but they that are after the SPIRIT The Things of the SPIRIT.

Do you not believe that Paul was after the things of the Spirit ?
He said, at one time in the scriptures,'but we have the Mind of Christ.'

Next verse,he says,to be carnally minded IS DEATH,But to be SPIRITUALY MINDED IS LIFE AND PEACE.
....goes on to say,they that are in the FLESH CANNOT PLEASE GOD.

But ye are Not in the flesh,but in the Spirit,IF SO be The SPIRIT DWELL
IN YOU.( don't you believe the Spirit dwelled in Paul ?)

He goes on to say, we all ,are DEBTORS, not to live after the Flesh,
Because,if we live after the Flesh ,we shall Die...but if we live after the Spirit we shall live ( or have Life )

Goes on to say, For as many as are LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD,They Are the sons / children of God.

Do you not believe Paul was led by the Spirit of God ?

As for being vile,...I never really think about that word much,..IDo think of the word that was used with Jesus,when this man called Him GOOD,..
and He said, Why calleth Me good,..there I ps NONE good ,but the Father.
So,..I am NOT GOOD,I am but apiece of clay / dirt.
But the Holy Spirit that is in me is GOD', who is WORD /SPIRIT IS
EVERYTHING that is good and perfect.

Though I be noththing,..He is everything

Am I being too strong, ..I do not want to offend,...but this is where I am
at.

Lovingly from my very heart,
elizabeth
,

Verse 3,..Says God CONDEMNED SIN IN THE FLESH.
(note above,he had just said,"There is therefore Now NO 'CONDEMNATION' to THEM Who Are IN Christ Jesus,WHO WALK NOT
AFTER THE FLESH,BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.

S
sermonindex


Here's Wesley's take on Romans 7 -

"Rom 7:7 What shall we say then - This is a kind of a digression, to the beginning of the next chapter, wherein the apostle, in order to show in the most lively manner the weakness and inefficacy of the Law, changes the person and speaks as of himself, concerning the misery of one under the Law. This St. Paul frequently does, when he is not speaking of his own person, but only assuming another character. The character here assumed is that of a man, first ignorant of the Law, then under it and sincerely, but ineffectually, striving to serve God. To have spoken this of himself, or any true believer, would have been foreign to the whole scope of his discourse; nay, utterly contrary thereto, as well as to what is expressly asserted, Rom 8:2. Is the law sin - Sinful in itself, or a promoter of sin. I had not known lust - That is, evil desire. I had not known it to be a sin; nay, perhaps I should not have known that any such desire was in me: it did not appear, till it was stirred up by the prohibition."

J
JFW

"While he cries out, O what love have I to thy Law! all the day long is my study in it. He sees daily, in that divine mirror, more and more of his own sinfulness. He sees more and more clearly, that he is fullness a sinner in all things -- that neither his heart nor his ways are right before God, and that every moment sends him to Christ. Therefore I cannot spare the Law one moment, no more than I can spare Christ, seeing I now want it as much to keep me to Christ, as I ever wanted it to bring me to Him. Otherwise this 'evil heart of unbelief' would immediately 'depart from the living God.' Indeed each is continually sending me to the other--the Law to Christ, and Christ to the Law."

"The second use {of the Law} is to bring him unto Life, unto Christ that he may live. It is true, in performing both these offices, it acts the part of a severe school master. It drives us by force, rather than draws us by love. And yet love is the spring of all. It is the spirit of love which, by this painful means, tears away our confidence in the flesh, which leaves us no broken reed whereon to trust, and so constrains the sinner, stripped of all to cry out in the bitterness of his soul or groan in the depth of his heart, 'I give up every plea beside, Lord I am damned but thou hast died.'"
These quotes by John Wesley seem to reflect an awareness of the "vileness" of the saint.
Wesley also contends heavily against the "almost Christian" and clearly states that the true measure is wether one is "born again" as it is only one who has been born again that can please God in that they reward Christ in His sufferings with faithful obedience to His Lordship. The scripture clearly states from beginning to end that he who is lowly/meek/humble will be exalted by God, but he who exhalts himself will be abased by God. Having followed this thread, praying God will reveal the truth of His Spirit through it as it truly seems to reflect the Kingdom perspective. "blessed are the poor of spirit for theirs IS the Kingdom of Heaven" not blessed are the righteous, because to say so is to require a work from us, not being content to rest in faith on the finished work of the cross. God has already answered our every question/need/prayer with Christ and Him crucified! tho' only the one who counts himself less than all others (hence vile) can receive it. It's simply a matter of sheep and goats; sheep will follow but goats want to lead-
Wesley illustrates the principal at the end of the first paragraph above in the "proper" use of the Law; law brings me to Christ who in turn brings me to the law that the work may continue bringing salvation unto eternal life+:)
Old_Joe, thank you for your perseverance on this thread+:)


Phl 3:9\t \tAnd be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Phl 3:12\t¶\tNot as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Phl 3:16\t \tNevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Phl 3:18\t \t(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, [that they are] the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Phl 3:21\t \tWho shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
In Faith,
James Fletcher Whaley

M
murrcolr

A little testimony of mine basically I was a thug who was marvelously saved and delivered from violence, drugs and the whole lifestyle that goes along with it.. I did attended church for 10 years I was personally discipled by one of the pastors and for two of those years I attended bible school.

Most people go from Bible school to ministry not so with myself as after attending bible school, I walked out of the church because of what I saw going on in it. On the day I decided to leave the church I walked across the road I started to pray about the calling of God on my life and why I was leaving the church… at the end of the prayer I said this God I don’t know how your going to do it (the calling on my life) but I believe you’ll do it but I am not going back to church. The Holy Spirit spoke to me he said “you’ll be like Job”


Years later on a Oil rig of the coast of West Africa parts of my body broke out in blisters. This took me right back to the words the Holy Spirit said to me “you’ll be like Job” This led me to go into a time of fasting and praying during my time off work, when it was time to come back to work at the end of fasting and praying, I had this thought what makes a Man of God that does great things for God different from your normal Christian. In my search I came across Duncan Campbell’s testimony, which I down loaded ionto my IPod so I could listen to it on the plane. (That’s how I became a member of sermon index)

As I sat on the plane listening to Duncan testimony amazed at what I was hearing of revival there was a few words that Duncan said “Go for God whatever it takes” these words cut me to my core. I had to get up and go to the toilet with tears streaming down my face, on entering the toilet I cried out to God, I will do it God just help me…



For that month in Africa everytime I went to pray all that I could do was get on my knees and weep, during that time God made me aware that that my old man was very much alive and is so closely intertwined with Sin that we think it’s us our nature but it’s not me, it’s Sin, but at the same time that Sin tricks you into believing it’s is you…

So here is a guy who before even going to church was filled with the Spirit one night as I was wanting to be changed from the violent person he was and by a simple prayer the Holy Spirit came as physical wind and blew into me and I started to talk in tounges, when I did attend church around a month later God send a man from India, I mean the preacher traveled from India to the Pastor’s House and knocked on the door and said God told me I have to preach at your church and I was delivered from the violence, then Ex-triads from Jackie Pullenger church in Hong Kong came to the church to testify of what God had done in there lives and I was delivered from drugs, I wept so much that night as God made me aware of just how much Jesus loves me…

Now I tell you all these things not to boast in myself but to give you an idea just what God has done in me and for me, just how good God has been to me….

But after all that God has done for me, he has went one step further to show me “I am rotten to the very core of my being” By my core of my being, I don’t mean my Spirit it has been born of the incorruptible seed, what I mean is my mind, my will and my emotions which is my soul. That is what basically makes me me.

But at the same time he gave me hope through Duncan Campbell’s testimony that there is a cure for my condition, and because Job also testified “but now my eyes see you” which would say to me that God purified his heart (soul) because blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God…

M
mguldner

Beautiful testimony brother, thank you for sharing.

I am the exact opposite in lifestyle but found that to my very core am vile. I was a holy roller, bible thumping, worship leading, prayer warring, all around likeable guy. What was my problem? I didn't know what was in me. The day I saw a glimpse of how Holy God was, was the day I saw who I really was, all my righteousness becamse filthy rags and I had no choice but to cast them off.

Only Christ is Righteous, Holy, and True. I have learned that whether you live a good life or have a rough life, whether you are drug free or a drug addict, whether you are a good citizen or a criminal, when standing before God we are all the same, Nothing. It took me a long time to learn this lesson and now I'm no better than hitler, Stalin, or any other individual.

The beauty of Our Lord is His blood has the same cleansing and atoning effect on ALL sinners. We battle the flesh till the day we are given glorified bodies but until then there is grace upon grace.

T
twayneb

White-Stone:

May I ask how you reconcile Romans 7:15-25 with what you posted?

Absolutely. Again we must see that Romans 7 is to be read and interpreted in the context of chapters 6-8 as well as in the context of the remainder of Paul's letter to the Romans. Paul is making a very strong case for salvation by grace through faith and not through works of the law. Again and again he has pointed to the law as utterly incapable of bringing about true righteousness.

In Romans 6, Paul demonstrates that we are baptized into Christ's death and resurrection. We are dead to sin and alive unto God. The body of sin has been crucified with Christ. So he asks the question, how shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein. A couple of observations from this passage. First, if we are truly dead to sin, if the body of sin has been put to death, if we have been resurrected with Christ, if it is no longer us but Christ that lives in us, how can we be vile? Second, he tells us to reckon ourselves dead indeed to sin but alive unto God. We are to consider the reality of the situation and reckon it to be so.

As Paul continues into chapter 7 he brings up two important points. The first is that we are now dead to the law so that we might be married to another, that is Christ. Second, he makes a distinction that he teaches in other places and that Jesus taught to Nicodemus. That is that although we are born again we still live in a body of flesh.

The wretchedness that Paul describes in Romans 7 is not that of a born again man with two competing natures. If we are dead to sin as he states in chapter 6 then how can we still have a sin nature? To assume that we have duality of nature is to negate what he said in chapter 6. This duality is also negated by Paul's own words in chapter 7. Read carefully the context of the first 5 verses. Paul is setting us up to show the utter futility of trying to do good, to be good, to please God by keeping the law. The problem was that he was trying to keep the law carnally. He was not empowered to live by the Spirit of God, but was attempting it through unregenerate flesh. Paul continues his though in chapter 8 by saying that what the law could not do in that it was weak in the flesh.... You see, Paul's conundrum is not a born again man trying his best and finding within himself a vile nature that keeps confounding his best efforts, but rather Paul is describing, in context of contrasting death to flesh and life in the Spirit, the wretchedness of attempting to please God in the flesh as he had previously done.

Then Paul goes on in chapter 8 to speak of the born again man's need to walk in the Spirit and to put the flesh to death. You see, we are not born again in our flesh. Our spirits are born again. But we, as righteous and truly holy believers, must still battle the flesh including our body, mind, will, and emotions. We must continually submit those things to God and allow Him to transform us as Paul goes on to speak of in Romans 12.

Another note: When Paul says in Romans 3 that there is none righteous we must again take this verse in context to understand what Paul is and is not saying. His contrast is between the Jews and the Gentiles. He is not speaking of born again believers made righteous by the blood of Jesus. He is talking of two groups. One who, because of being "God's chosen" might consider themselves righteous and another who might look at the Jew's unfaithfulness and consider them unrighteous. The key is verse 9. We have proved both Jew and Gentile under sin. There is none righteous.... Again, context is everything. To simply claim that Romans 3:10 speaks to even believers and points to the vileness of the saint is to create a tremendous Biblical problem for then for the sake of one private interpretation of one verse we must attempt to reinterpret a great host of other scriptures where Paul and Peter proclaim that we have been made righteous. We cannot be both righteous and unrighteous at the same time. The two are mutually exclusive.

Hope that helps.
Blessings.

T
twayneb

Old-Joe:

You are pointing out an important distinction that is true. There are two types of righteousness. One is of the flesh and is filthy rags. The other is not of myself, but is imputed. Absolutely true.

But when righteousness was imputed to me I became, nonetheless, righteous. Not of myself by ANY means. But still righteous. And not false righteousness that is of self, but TRUE righteousness that is of God. Praise God I am righteous through HIM. What I could NEVER obtain He has given me through faith. And I stand before Him in righteousness and true holiness. He no longer sees me as sinful or vile. He sees me as righteous. Praise God for His great grace on me who was worthy of DEATH and CONDEMNATION, but am now given LIFE and LIBERTY.

S
sermonindex


I am a dog!

S
sermonindex


I am a dog!

Waiting to see who will or can be next to surpass this one.

This thread has to out-do any Easter Parades I've ever seen.

S
sermonindex

[quoteI am a dog!

I am a beloved dog, very thankful for grace to dogs!

OJ

S
sermonindex

...as a dog returns to it's vomit ....


Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.


If we keep stepping out of what the New Testament says about us and not quoting Only from what Christ has made of us - I don't see how we'll make it unto the end.

Learn to rightly divide The Word and live!

S
sermonindex

Ah,those who are ONLY dogs may be on the outside, but the beloved dogs are on the inside!!

"There is NONE righteous, no not one!" Not David, not Abraham, not Old Joe, no not even JIG.

OJ

C
Christinyou

Quote:

"""We cannot be both righteous and unrighteous at the same time. The two are mutually exclusive."""

Amen; that is why anything I do outside of Christ and in my own flesh, nothing I do is righteous. Walk in the Spirit and your walk with God will be righteous. This is by faith also.

That is also, "The life I now live, I live by the faith of the son of God". I live for God by the life of Christ in me.

Again and Again, the center piece of the crucified life.

Galatians 2:16-20 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Don't build the Law again, it only leads to death, be justified by the Christ in us. He is our only justification and righteousness.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

In Christ: He is my glory; Phillip


S
sermonindex

John 1:12
Yet to all who recieved him, he gave the right to become children of God.

2 Corithians 6:18
I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters says the Lord almighty.

Romans 8:16
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.


The above verses say we are God's children. Nowhere is there language saying we are vile. Those of you who have children? A question? Do you love them? Do you address them as my little darling reprobate? My little vile sinner? My little depraved dog?

I hardly think so. I doubt that God addresses his sons and daughters the same way.

T
twayneb

Amen; that is why anything I do outside of Christ and in my own flesh, nothing I do is righteous. Walk in the Spirit and your walk with God will be righteous. This is by faith also.

Phillip: Amen. NOTHING I do in my flesh counts for righteousness. When we finally stand before the Lord and lay our crowns at His feet, it will only be those things that were of His Spirit that we did through faith that we will possess to lay there. All that is of our own flesh will burn up. Oh, I want so much to have nothing of myself and everything of Him. I remember it being said of Smith Wigglesworth. He said that God spoke to him and said, Smith, I don't have all of you yet. Smith replied, burn me up Lord until nothing of me remains and all that is left is You. (misquoted I am sure but the thought is maintained.)

If I thought for a moment that I have ANY righteousness OUTSIDE of Him I am most terribly deceived. But if I think that I have anything IN HIM that is not righteousness, equally so.

S
sermonindex

The wretchedness that Paul describes in Romans 7 is not that of a born again man with two competing natures. If we are dead to sin as he states in chapter 6 then how can we still have a sin nature?

In your understanding of being dead to sin, why do you still sin? Is this sin charged to Christ's nature or yours?

OJ

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sermonindex

"There is NONE righteous, no not one!" Not David, not Abraham, not Old Joe, no not even JIG, nor Philip nor Twayneb!

We may have a faith that COUNTS for righteousness as did Abraham and David and any other saved person, but since God through the Apostle Paul and his servant David excluded Peter, James, John and the rest of the apostles from BEING righteous, certainly none of us can claim to be righteous. .

OJ

N
NeedHelp

1 John 3:9 (KJV)
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

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sermonindex

Eccl 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

And that in spite of grace, how vile is that??


OJ

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sermonindex

We may have a faith that COUNTS for righteousness as did Abraham and David and any other saved person, but since God through the Apostle Paul and his servant David excluded Peter, James, John and the rest of the apostles from BEING righteous, certainly none of us can claim to be righteous. .

OJ

This is junk, Joe. Have you really read what you wrote in this quote?

If you're going to quote Romans 3:10 again and again, wouldn't it be wiser if you'd come to understand what Paul is saying in that Chpt by reading ALL of it and see what he is quoting and to 'whom' -- as this again being one of the other verses that you post often, that regards the unsaved and those that are trying to be saved according to The 613 Laws. As are the verses you quote from the O.T., as you have above.

Abraham and David, etc were declared righteous.


I fear for you, as you are posting like a Biblically illiterate or is it intentional ?
We've had some rather intensive teaching threads on 'control-cults' and one of their tactics is to make the people feel as though they're nothing but dirty dogs, by only quoting verses out of context to "break the person's spirit, in order to gain control of the person."
Those were informative threads btw.
Heb 5:13 "For every one that useth milk is unskillful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe" [or a cultish guru]


GOD also calls them that 'do' righteousness, "righteous", and also, "holy" [and that bothers you?]


1Pe 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.


1Jn 2:29 If ye know that He is righteous, ye know that every one that 'doeth' righteousness is born of him.


1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that 'doeth' righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous.


1Jn 3:10 'In this' the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever 'doeth not' righteousness is not of God, 'neither he that loveth not his brother.'


Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
1Jn 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.


2Pe 2:21,22 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


1Pe 1:14-17 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: but as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; because it is written, "Be ye holy; for I am holy."
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear


We should fear adding to or subtracting from HIS WORDS.

How can we 'be' something that Joe is saying that we can't do and be?


P.S. Read Phil 3:9 and notice that Paul says, "which is of the Law", and then on through the rest of that Chpt.

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twayneb

Joe:

Brother, you really must take Romans 3:10 in context. Lifting it out of context causes it to be devoid of all meaning.

Let me answer your question about Rom. 7 a little bit more completely. I am a tripart being, Spirit, soul, and body. My spirit is the eternal part of me, my body is the shell I live in, and my soul can be thought of as the working of my mind, will, and emotions to think, choose, and feel.

When I was a lost man my spirit was dead toward God if you will. I was incapable of right relationship with Him. When I was born again, as Jesus taught Nicodemus, it was not my flesh that was born again, but my spirit. My soul and body were not born again. Paul teaches in Rom. 12 that my soul is in the process of being transformed by the renewing of the mind and my body eagerly awaits its own redemption which will occur when Jesus returns.

So, according to Rom. 8, it is possible to walk in the Spirit or to walk in the flesh. When I walk in the Spirit I will be governed by the Holy Spirit and I experience what Paul speaks of in 1 Cor. 2. When I walk in the flesh I give in to temptations and desires. To think that I will walk in the Spirit perfectly is not born out scripturally.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Righteousness is right standing before God. Nothing more, nothing less. When God looks at me He does not see sin, vileness, defilement, but rather He sees the righteousness of His Son, Jesus Christ. I am, in His eyes, right and in right standing by faith in Jesus Christ. It is, if you will, a positional statement. It is nothing I could ever earn, but a standing that I have been given by grace through faith.

If I sin, I am convicted by the Holy Spirit within and I repent and receive the grace and forgiveness that has already been given to me. My right standing before God has not changed as I am still trusting in what Jesus did rather than what I did.

But, some might say, what you are saying is license to sin. Not by any means. A born again man does not have a nature of sin. God has written His laws in my heart (Jeremiah and I believe Hebrews) and my hearts yearning cry is to be holy as He is holy. But I still live in a fleshly body and my mind, will, and emotions are not transformed.

So the battle, as Paul speaks of in Rom. 6-8, is not with another nature within me but rather with my flesh.

Brother, believe me when I say that I know where you are coming from when you speak of the vileness of the saint. Unfortunately a thorough study of scripture just cannot bear that out. It is absolutely true that the righteousness I possess is NOT my own righteousness. It is true that in my flesh dwells no good thing. But my spirit is born again and made truly righteous. Old things are passed away and ALL things are become new. This is a reality that is true of my spirit, not my flesh. You and I will still battle with our flesh, and we will from time to time feel a sense of despair at our weakness. But our attitude must be, "Wait a minute. I have been made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. I am a new creature. I am dead to sin. Sin will no longer have dominion over me. I praise God that I am born again and made righteous and a righteous man does not do that (whatever the sin). I repent of that and thank you Lord that I have been made right in Your sight. Give me strength by Your grace to walk out that righteousness that the fruit of holiness might be borne in my life." You see we have an advocate that has, by His own blood, declared us in right standing with the Father.

I know this is not an exhaustive list by any means but here are some verses that bear study and consideration.


2 Cor. 5:21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Hebrews 10:14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Romans 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 9:30
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Romans 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

2 Corinthians 6:14
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

Ephesians 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

James 5:16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

1 Peter 3:14
But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

Brother, I am not desiring to argue or debate with you. If you are convinced that the saint is truly vile and determined to believe that then I can simply lay what I have said before you and ask you to consider it. In any case my God bless you.


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sermonindex

So the battle, as Paul speaks of in Rom. 6-8, is not with another nature within me but rather with my flesh.

If by flesh you mean skin and bones, false! If by flesh you mean soul, true, but in the soul of the man lies the nature of man. Therefore what you refer to as flesh can only be the nature of man.

OJ

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sermonindex

Abraham and David, etc were declared righteous.

Actually it is declared that their faith was "COUNTED for righteousness". Romans chapter 4 explains how the saint can be counted as righteous in spite of being vile.

Read it again:

Romans 4:3-5 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was COUNTED unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, HIS FAITH IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

OJ

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twayneb

OJ:

When we are born again, we take on the divine nature. You see, your spirit is who you are. It is the eternal part of you. If you want to use the term nature, which is really not a Biblical term at all, then I would say that the nature of a man is bound up in the condition of the spirit of the man. I have a regenerated spirit and am become a partaker in the divine nature. However my soul and body (my flesh) is not born again. It still retains many of the same lusts, passions, desires, memories, etc. So the battle is to bring the flesh into submission to the spirit that is in communion with the Holy Spirit. This does not effect my righteousness (right standing) before God. But now I have the power of the Holy Spirit to enable me to walk according to the grace that has been bestowed upon me.

That is what I mean.

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sermonindex


Yes, I do understand Rom 4, but do you understand the verses that I posted in my last post and Hebrews 11 & James 2:14-26?

We need to widen things a bit and maybe include Matthew 25 as well.

TFYR

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sermonindex


I am trash!

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pilgrim777

Joe, twayneb has got it. Where do you find this biblical term of human nature?

When we are regenerated, we are not 50% regenerated. After regeneration we are partakers of the Divine nature not the Satanic nature, anymore. We have been translated out of the Kingdom of Darkness. Of course patterns and imprints of sin are in our flesh and memory and that is why we must be renewed in our mind and abide everyday in Christ, learning to yield our members unto righteousness and to resist the Devil and flee temptation.

The NIV introduced this dual-nature conflict as if we are schizophrenics. Maybe, it was introduced earlier by men's writings.

There are not 3 natures in this Universe. There are two. The Divine Nature and the Satanic nature/character. We are containers and simply derive our nature/character from God or Satan.

We choose to abide in one of them and then we produce fruit based on which nature we are deriving our "life" from.

If man had his very own, nature, then the New Agers are right. But they are not. We have no self-independent nature that allows us to stand fully apart from God or Satan as a 3rd independent entity in this Universe.

We yield our members to Righteousness (God) or Unrighteousness (Satan).

Pilgrim

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NeedHelp

Here is what the apostle paul said:
1 Thessalonians 2:10-12 (KJV)
10 Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:
11 As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children,
12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

I feel so sorry for you people who are so happy that you are so vile even worse than hitler because you shouldn’t want to disgrace the Lord in such a way on this forum. I guess you can stay disgraceful because hitler and others have done so but God does not want us to stay that way and thank God because of his marvelous grace and the sacrificial work of Jesus on the cross and the cleansing of his precious blood we can be made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. In the flesh we are vile but we are not to be in the flesh anymore but in the spirit if so be that Christ dwells in you and if any man have not the spirit of Christ then he is none of His.

M
murrcolr

Humility is often identified with penitence and contrition. When it is thought of like this, there appears to be no way of fostering humility but by keeping the soul occupied with its sin. But humility is something else and something more. In the teaching of our Lord Jesus and the Epistles, often the virtue of humility is urged without any reference to sin. Humility is the very essence of holiness and of blessedness, whether in the very nature of things or in the whole relation of the creature to the Creator, or in the life of Jesus as He lived it and imparts it to us.

Humility is the displacement of self by the enthronement of God. Where God is all, self is nothing.

Man's sin and God's grace give new depth and intensity to the humility of the saints. We have only to look at a man like the Apostle Paul to see how, through his life as a ransomed and a holy men, the deep consciousness of having been a sinner cannot be extinguished. We know the passages in which he refers to his life as a persecutor and blasphemer:

"I am the least of the apostles, that am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the Church of God...I labored more abundantly than they all; yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me" (1 Cor. 15:9,10).

"Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, was this grace given, to preach to the heathen" (Eph. 3:8). "I was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious; howbeit I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief...Christ Jesus came unto the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief" (1 Tim. 1:13,15).

God's grace had saved him. God remembered his sins no more forever. But never, never could Paul forget how terribly he had sinned. The more he rejoiced in God's salvation, and the more his experience of God's grace filled him with joy unspeakable, the clearer was his consciousness that he was a saved sinner, and that salvation had no meaning or sweetness except as the sense of his being a sinner made it precious and real to him. Never for a moment could he forget that it was a sinner God had taken up in His arms and crowned with His love.

The texts we have quoted are often appealed to as Paul's confession of daily sinning. One has only to read them carefully in their connection, to see how little this is the case. They have a far deeper meaning. They refer to that which lasts throughout eternity, and which will give its deep undertone of amazement and adoration to the humility with which the ransomed bow before the throne as those who have been washed from their sins in the blood of the Lamb. Never, never, even in glory, can they be other than ransomed sinners.

Never for a moment in this life can God's child live in the full light of His love, but as he feels that the sin out of which he has been saved, is his one only right and title to all that grace has promised to do.

The humility with which first he came as a sinner, acquires a new meaning when he learns how fitting it is for the creature. Then ever again, the humility in which he was born as a creature, has its deepest, richest tones of adoration in the memory of what it is to be a monument of God's wondrous redeeming love.

The true impact of what these expressions of St. Paul teach us comes out all the more strongly when we notice the remarkable fact that, through his whole Christian course, we never find from his pen anything like confession of sin. This is true even in those epistles in which we have the most intensely personal confessions coming. Nowhere is there any mention of shortcoming or defect, nowhere any suggestion to his readers that he has failed in duty, or sinned against the law of perfect love. On the contrary, there are not a few passages in which he vindicates himself in language that means nothing if it does not appeal to a faultless life before God and men.

"Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily, and righteously, and unblameably we behaved ourselves toward you" (1 Thess. 2:10). "Our glorying is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in holiness and sincerity of God we behaved ourselves in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward" (2 Cor. 1:12).

This is not an ideal or an inspiration; it is an appeal to what his actual life had been. However we may account for this absence of confession of sin, all will admit that it must point to a life in the power of the Holy Ghost such as is but seldom realized or expected in these our days.

The point which I wish to emphasize is this--that the very fact of the absence of such confession of sinning only gives the more force to the truth that it is not in daily sinning that the secret of the deeper humility will be found. Rather it is in the habitual, never-for-a-moment-to-be-forgotten position, which only the more abundant grace will keep more distinctly alive, that our only place, the only place of blessing, our one abiding position before God, must be that of those whose highest joy it is to confess that they are sinners saved by grace.

With Paul's deep remembrance of having sinned so terribly in the past, before grace had met him, and the consciousness of being kept from present sinning--there was ever coupled the abiding remembrance of the dark, hidden power of sin ever ready to come in, and only kept out by the presence and power of the indwelling Christ.

"In me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing"--these words of Romans 7:18 describe the flesh as it is to the end. The glorious deliverance of Romans 8:2--"The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath now made me free from the law of sin, which once led me captive"--is neither the annihilation nor the sanctification of the flesh, but a continuous victory given by the Spirit as He mortifies the deeds of the body.

As health expels disease and light swallows up darkness and life conquers death, the indwelling of Christ through the Spirit is the health and light and life of the soul. But with this is the conviction of helplessness and danger which tempers the faith in the moment-by-moment and unbroken action of the Holy Spirit, making it a chastened sense of dependence. This makes the highest faith and joy the handmaids of a humility that only lives by the grace of God.

Grace, Not Sin Keeps Hearts Humble

The three passages above quoted all show that it was the wonderful grace bestowed upon Paul, and of which he felt the need every moment, that humbled him so deeply. This grace of God that was with him enabled him to labor more abundantly than they all, and to preach to the heathen the unsearchable riches of Christ, and was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. It was this grace, of which it is the very nature and glory that it is for sinners, that kept the consciousness of his having once sinned, and being liable to sin, so intensely alive. "Where sin abounded, grace did abound more exceedingly" (Rom. 5:20).

This reveals how the very essence of grace is to deal with and take away sin, and how it must ever be--that the more abundant the experience of grace, the more intense the consciousness of being a sinner. It is not sin, but God's grace showing a man and ever reminding him what a sinner he was, that will keep him truly humble. It is not sin, but grace, that will make me indeed know myself a sinner, and make the sinner's place of deepest self-abasement the place I never leave.

There are not a few who, by strong expressions of self-condemnation and self-denunciation, have sought to humble themselves. But they have to confess with sorrow that a humble spirit, a "heart of humility," with its accompaniments of kindness and compassion, of meekness and forbearance, is still as far off as ever. Being occupied with self, even amid the deepest self-abhorrence, can never free us from self.

It is the revelation of God, not only by the law condemning sin, but by His grace delivering from it, that will make us humble. The law may break the heart with fear; it is only grace that works that sweet humility which becomes a joy to the soul as its second nature.

It was the revelation of God in His holiness, drawing nigh to make Himself known in His grace, that made Abraham and Jacob, Job and Isaiah, bow so low. It is the soul in which God the Creator, as the All of the creature in its nothingness, God the Redeemer in His grace, as the All of the sinner in his sinfulness is waited for and trusted and worshipped--that will find itself so filled with His presence, that there will be no place for self. So alone can the promise be fulfilled: "The haughtiness of man shall be brought low, and the Lord alone be exalted in that day" (Isa. 2:17).

It is the sinner dwelling in the full light of God's holy, redeeming love, in the experience of that full indwelling of divine love, which comes through Christ and the Holy Spirit, who cannot but be humble. Not to be occupied with your sin, but to be occupied with God brings deliverance from self!

From Humility, The Beauty Of Holiness by Andrew Murray

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twayneb

Great quote by Murray. Thanks for the post.

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sermonindex

If man had his very own, nature, then the New Agers are right. But they are not. We have no self-independent nature that allows us to stand fully apart from God or Satan as a 3rd independent entity in this Universe.

Who do you lay the responsibility for your present sin on? God, Satan or yourself? If you lay it on the first two, your shirk your responsibility for it. If you lay it properly on the third, you find your answer.

OJ

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sermonindex

"For I delight in the law of God after the inward man"

Anyone ever see a lost man delight in the law of God after the inward man?

I doubt it, so why do you think Paul was speaking of himself as lost when he said it?

OJ

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sermonindex

Quote:
"The nearer to God—
the more we discover our depravity,
the more we loathe ourselves, and
the more precious does the person and work of Jesus become!"

Pilgrim, you wrote:

This is so true.

Can I ask why you say this is so true and then deny that it is true?

Certainly your new nature isn't depraved, so what is?

OJ

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sermonindex

"Sinners, of who I AM chief"

No matter how many people try to put it in there, there is no WAS, only an AM. That is present tense. If you don't believe it, you don't take the Bible for what it says, you impose your own beliefs upon the Bible.

OJ

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sermonindex

This does not effect my righteousness (right standing) before God.

That is what is so gracious about God in the matter.


But now I have the power of the Holy Spirit to enable me to walk according to the grace that has been bestowed upon me.

And even with this power working in and for you, you still sin against grace, pretty vile of you don't you think?

OJ

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sermonindex

For those interested this is Spurgeon on understanding the two natures of the believer.

http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols25-27/chs1459B.pdf

OJ

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sermonindex

by Old_Joe on 2012/4/3 20:51:03

"Sinners, of who I AM chief"

No matter how many people try to put it in there, there is no WAS, only an AM. That is present tense. If you don't believe it, you don't take the Bible for what it says, you impose your own beliefs upon the Bible.

OJ


Joe, I do understand that you are not into hermeneutics by how you pull scriptures without the context of everything else that Paul has written.
You could muddy up anyone else, myself included, which you do quite fluently - but for us to sit back and watch you accuse Paul of what he was not quilty of and what would make his preaching totally hypocritical is unexcusable.

In the the context of what he was saying in 1Tim 1:15 - he is saying - of all that GOD had saved before he was saved - he is the worst. That if GOD could save Saul of Tarsus, HE could save anyone. In other words - he's saying - 'I am the chiefest sinners of all those other sinners that He has saved before He saved me'.

Because Paul preached so very hard against sin - that rules out your opinion that this one verse means that Paul considered himself, present tense, an active sinner of the chiefest sort. By putting that guilty sentence on Paul - you are wresting scripture to form a picture of Paul that is not found anywhere in the New Testament and that's literally a dangerous charge to make against someone that GOD commissioned to write almost half of the NT and bring the Gospel to the Gentiles and teach them what "sin" is.

To how he truly felt - these verses below were just a few of the verses from Paul and why he of all that were saved was the chiefest of sinners that GOD had saved - if you read the whole of 1 Timothy, from where you get your one sentence and see what Paul is referring to and NOT that he was living a lifestyle of sin that made him the chiefest of sinners. All of his writings put sin behind him and exhorting us to do the same.

Paul's guilt is what he is referring back to and why of all those that GOD had saved before He saved Paul - Paul could say "He is the chiefest of sinners of them all" ...


Act 22:4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.

Act 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:
Act 22:20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.

Act 26:9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
Act 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
Act 26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.

1Cor 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, BECAUSE I persecuted the church of God.

Gal 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it

Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, *persecuting the church*; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Others that have posted to this thread, gave other verses of how Paul spoke of himself - such as, 2Ti 4:8 "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

2Ti 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
2Ti 3:11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

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sermonindex

All of his writings put sin behind him

Are you telling us that after Paul was saved he was sinless?

OJ

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pilgrim777

Who do you lay the responsibility for your present sin on? God, Satan or yourself? If you lay it on the first two, your shirk your responsibility for it. If you lay it properly on the third, you find your answer.

God does not yield for me. Satan does not yield for me.

I yield myself either to righteousness (GOD) or unrighteousness (Satan).

Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

When I yield myself to God or Satan, I partake of their nature, I am abiding in one or the other.

Pilgrim

M
mguldner

Brother Pilgrim does that mean you are both Righteous and Unrighteous? Meaning at times you yield to God and other times you yield to Satan? Wouldn't this form of system require perfect yielding to God to be righteous?

1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."

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sermonindex

Are you telling us that after Paul was saved he was sinless?

Paul never put onto 'us', what he didn't live up to himself.

It would be good, not only for you but for those that you try to 'teach', if you could get away from merely quoting one verse and get into the whole of all that Paul had written. The whole counsel of GOD that he delivered onto the Saints.
I see that is what causes the most tension between your attempts to conveying your message to us - is that you either depend on partial quotes of authors or partial quotes of His Word.
In this particular case - you're making more of a case 'for' sin and thus misrepresenting Paul the Apostle and the words that he wrote under Divine inspiration.

2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To Him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

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ginnyrose

QUOTE:
"It took me a long time to learn this lesson and now I'm no better than hitler, Stalin, or any other individual."

I take issue with this statement. To compare oneself with Hitler or Stalin in deeds is, well, not Biblical, is it? But to be lost is being lost. Anyone not a child of the LORD is lost, just plain lost.

Remember when Jesus referred to the a person who he described as not being far from the kingdom of heaven? (Mark 12:34) He never used this phrase to describe the Scribes and Pharisees...

Still, the LORD can redeem vile men - consider Judah's king Manasseh...but there was a sore reaping for his sins. God did not cancel the consequences of it. So it still is today,
"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. Gal.6:7,8

OK, I will bow out of this doctrinal discussion.

ginnyrose

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pilgrim777

Mguldner,

Jesus is implying that the Pharisees are partaking of their father's (Satan) nature. That is why He uses the term "father".

John 8:38
I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

Also, you stopped one verse short in I John.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

and

1 John 2:1
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Pilgrim

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Christinyou

Study this word; "quickened", then apply it to Eph 2, and understand where we stand with God our Father and The Word made flesh and by His Spirit, life now living in us by the Spirit of Christ birthed in us because God our Father gave rebirth by the incorruptable Seed Jesus Christ rebirthed in us. Jesus Christ is not vile, to make what God has declared Holy vile, makes me stand before God and declare, You are wrong God, I am still vile no matter what you do.

The Born again incorruptable Seed of the Father, Jesus Christ that is in me by His Spirit, is not vile.

Psalms 119:50 This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.

Psalms 119:93 I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me.

1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Ephesians 2:1-22 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

I was vile, and without Christ in me would still be vile, but God has declared and made me righteous in His Sight, by making Jesus Christ my righteousness, PLUS!!!!!

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Like Paul, who will, who has, set me free from this vile person? Romans 8:9-11 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

This vile body has been quickened to contain the Spirit of Christ by whom God has made us righteous by His Son that is Born again in us.

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Even I cannot separate from the Law of God in Christ Jesus who now is My Spirit and the Holy Spirit who teaches me in my soul, to be unbirthed is to make God an abortionest, which He is Clearly Not, which make me a quickened one, a son forever in Christ Jesus my Lord and Savior by The God Seed which is not vile but Holy and Completely Perfect in me.

God has declared me righteous, not by what I do but by who I Am=now I can show you my faith by my works.

In Christ: Phillip

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murrcolr

1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

Bong Bong

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I am filth!

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OJ writes:
Are you telling us that after Paul was saved he was sinless?

JIG replies
Paul never put onto 'us', what he didn't live up to himself.

I ask again, are you telling us that after Paul was saved he was sinless? Yes or no answer please.

OJ

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Repeated since not addressed:

"For I delight in the law of God after the inward man"

Anyone ever see a lost man delight in the law of God after the inward man?

I doubt it, so why do you think Paul was speaking of himself as lost when he said it?

OJ

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When I yield myself to God or Satan, I partake of their nature, I am abiding in one or the other.

That is not what 1 Cor 10:21 teaches, neither Matt 6:24, neither John 15:6.


OJ

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murrcolr

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Do we know him, do we keep his commandments, this how we know if we are in him..

Whats does he mean commandments well just take the main two...

Do you love God with all you heart?
Do you Love your neighbour as you love yourself?

Is not love the fulfilling of the law.

Are we in Him or are we deluding ourselves...

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Well Colin, do you keep His commandments? IE are you now sinless?

Delighting in the law of God after the inward man with the recognition that these commandments reveal your sin, they do not justify you, IS the keeping of the commandments. Any who sees a commandment and says to himself, "Yup, I have got that one covered", like the rich young ruler, reveals his ignorance of the depth of the commandment.

OJ

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pilgrim777

That is not what 1 Cor 10:21 teaches, neither Matt 6:24, neither John 15:6.

1 Cor 3:16 agrees with John 15:6. How do you defile the temple of God, Joe.

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Pilgrim

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The carnal man can delight in that law which he believes justifies him, but only a saved man such as Paul can delight in that law which he knows condemns him.

OJ

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Pilgrim

There is no biblical example of a believer abiding in Satan, as you suggest.

HOWEVER, even if such an example of a believer abiding in Satan could be invented, would that not prove the vileness of such a critter that has the opportunity to abide in Christ and yet chooses to abide in Satan?

OJ

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How do you defile the temple of God, Joe.

By sin.


OJ

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murrcolr

Joe

Did you read my short testimony I posted earlier...

Gal 4:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The point of the my post was not to condemn anyone as I will be the first to say "I am carnal"

I don't love God with all my heart and I don't love my neighbour as I love my self.

The Love of God is ever beyond the reach of self, but when the heart and mind are emptied of self then the selfless Love, the supreme Love, the Love that is of God becomes an inward and abiding reality.

And this inward realization of Holy Love is none other than the Love of Christ that is so much talked about and so little comprehended. The Love that not only saves the soul from sin, but also lifts it above the power of temptation.

Smith Wigglesworth said "I believe God's ministers are to be flames of fire. Nothing less than flames. Nothing less than mighty instruments, with burning messages, with HEARTS FULL OF LOVE. They must have a DEPTH OF CONSECRATION, that God has taken FULL charge of the body, and it exists only that it may manifest the Glory of God. A Baptism into death in which the person is purified and energised.

That's where I want to go in my walk with God...

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pilgrim777

By sin

That is true, brother Joe.

And what does this verse tell you?

1 John 3:8
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Pilgrim

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The carnal man can delight in that law which he believes justifies him, but only a saved man such as Paul can delight in that law which he knows condemns him.

OJ

I'm not trying to be rude by not answering sooner - it's just that you already know that I firmly believe from ALLLL that Paul wrote on sin, that Romans 7 is Paul putting himself in the place of what he once was [when he 'did' delight in the law - as David did in Ps 119 and other OT Saints] and whomever else that tries to be justified by The Law and what happens to them.

I've always held this view, but thanks to you, I did find Wesley's view since this thread, 'after' I first answered WhiteStone on it, requesting that Romans 6 and 8 be read first to see if Paul considered himself "a slave to sin or the flesh".

Wesley expresses it very well and I couldn't agree with him more.
If you have fed yourself on the New Testament fully-fully - I do believe that one would see this in Paul and not himself in Rom 7.

Wesley again:

"This is a kind of a digression, to the beginning of the next chapter, wherein the apostle, in order to show in the most lively manner the weakness and inefficacy of the law, changes the person and speaks as of himself, concerning the misery of one under the law. This St. Paul frequently does, when he is not speaking of his own person, but only assuming another character. The character here assumed is that of a man, first ignorant of the law, then under it and sincerely, but ineffectually, striving to serve God. To have spoken this of himself, or any true believer, would have been foreign to the whole scope of his discourse; nay, utterly contrary thereto, as well as to what is expressly asserted, Rom_8:2."

Good day!

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murrcolr

Jig it just does make sense

Quote: Paul putting himself in the place of what he once was

Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Paul says that touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Why would he say he was blameless when touching the righteousness in the law and if there was any man who could have confidence in the flesh it was him.

Then turn around and say he in misery of being under that law.

No what happened to Paul on the road to Damascus is what took away his confidence in the flesh and the righteousness in the law, it was after his conversion as the truth came to him that he found out that "in him there was no good thing"

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Brother Colin, "Spain"? I didn't know that. When did that happen? Now who can I ask what's happening in that country that I was concerned over?

Well anyway - that's why I love Phil 3:7-15 so much. Just posted that elsewhere, so as usual - repeating myself, but at my age, we're allowed to, they say.

GOD Bless and appreciate your posts. Love 'is' the fulfillment of the law. Thanks for posting it!

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murrcolr

What country are you concerned over? Scotland

Edited profile and this post: I will be in either of these countries, in fact I am traveling back from Spain to Scotland as I write this I am sitting in Paris.

Then on Tuesday I will travel to Nigeria...

Think of it this way you now have three countries you can ask about.

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twayneb

Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Paul says that touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Why would he say he was blameless when touching the righteousness in the law and if there was any man who could have confidence in the flesh it was him.

Then turn around and say he in misery of being under that law.

Paul never said that "concerning the law, I have become righteous in God's sight by my ability to keep the law."

Notice that he said, "If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:" and then goes on to list his fleshly accomplishments. The things that come next are all things that Paul accomplished in his flesh, apart from God. He was an honorable and true Jew. He was a Pharisee (Which made him virtually walk on spiritual water to the unwashed masses). He was zealous of very orthodox Judaism. He lives so that no man could bring blame against him concerning living under the law. So he could glory in his flesh before men. But not before God. Look back to Romans 4 and the context under which Paul is writing this letter. He, like Abraham, had whereof to glory, but not before God because he was doing these things out of his own flesh rather than out of the Spirit.

Second is the term wretched. Paul never said, "I was miserable under the law." as we would think of emotional misery. He says, "Oh wretched man that I am. Who shall save me from the body of this death?" Paul recognizes now that he is born again that to continue to try to please God through attempts at keeping the law is vanity and leads to death, eternally. This means that the man who is trying through the flesh to obtain righteousness is in a wretched condition.

So the righteousness he speaks of here is not right standing before God, but rather right standing before men through the flesh. You see, Paul is describing the utter futility of trying to be right in God's eyes by works of the flesh. He says, "Look guys, if I, who have so much going for me in the flesh, could not be found right in God's eyes through my own goodness, then where does that leave anyone?"

And yes, when Paul encountered Jesus Christ for who He really was it did demolish everything Paul had built on his own effort. He did come to the end of himself. What I praise God for was the faithfulness of Annanias who obeyed God and ministered to Paul.

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I am Rot!

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I praise you because I am fearfully and
wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
Psalm 139:14

Thank you God that you do not make junk.

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That is true, brother Joe.

And what does this verse tell you?

1 John 3:8
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Pilgrim

That verse says and means several things, but in regards to current context it tells me that residing in any man who is not sinless (and none are) lies a nature very much like the devil, which though subdued is still capable of any evil.

The verse below says that we must acknowledge and take full responsibility for this evil and can neither blame it on the devil nor ask forgiveness on his behalf for doing it in us.

1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Without even committing a sin, even the proneness to sin is a grievous evil.

OJ

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JIG

FWIW

I have read most of Wesley's sermons, did you ever notice that by his own admission he was lost when he preached many of them. It wasn't until hearing Luther's commentary on the Romans where he was finally saved, that he even began to understand who he was and who God was. Towards the end of his life his views changed as he started to see a little more clearly, so when reading Wesley it will do you good to know Wesley at the beginning is not the same as Wesley at the the end.

Here is from the mature Wesley for you.

“The same love which fills a man with zeal for God, makes him little, and poor, and vile in his own eyes.” - John Wesley


ETA
Lost men delight in the law of God after the outward man, the inward man has to do with the heart, and no lost man ever delighted in the law of God from the heart.


OJ

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Recapping a bit here. The respected men of yesteryear (quoted below) whose ministries have passed the test of time, have crossed denominational boundaries to agree on the Christian’s recognition of his own vileness as a distinctly Christian endeavour; whereas most of those here loudly proclaim “I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked”. Let each reader decide for himself, as each will be responsible for his own soul.


“Man draws nearer to God in proportion as he withdraws farther from all earthly comfort. And he ascends higher to God as he descends lower into himself and grows more vile in his own eyes. He who attributes any good to himself hinders God's grace from coming into his heart, for the grace of the Holy Spirit seeks always the humble heart.” - Thomas A Kempis

“The same love which fills a man with zeal for God, makes him little, and poor, and vile in his own eyes.” - John Wesley

“And when a man has gone far enough, so to speak, to be introduced to God Himself, he will be sure to think afterward very little of himself. Yes, if anything can make us feel our littleness, it must be a view of His wisdom; if anything can make us sensible of our weakness, it must be the view of His almighty sovereignty; if anything can make us feel our depravity, it must be the view of His spotless purity, -- the spotless purity of Him "who is of purer eyes than to behold iniquity, and in whose sight the very heavens are not clean." - W. Jay

“JOB did not always think so. While at a distance from God—he could boast, argue, and contend with God! But when brought into the presence of God's holiness—the contrast was so striking, that he sunk down in astonishment, clothed with shame, and filled with self-loathing! The manifestation of God's glory to a sinner—always produces the same effect! – James Smith

"We are sure that what Job was forced to say, we may each of us assent unto, whether we be God's children or not; and if we be partakers of divine grace, it becomes a subject of great consideration for us, since even we, although we be regenerated, must exclaim, each one for himself, "Behold, I am vile."" C.H. Spurgeon

“The great object of the Lord has been attained. Job changes his mind -- his whole attitude -- both as to himself and as to God. Humbled to the dust, he condemns himself and glorifies the Lord. And this is what God had in view from the beginning. And it is what all must reach in one way or another who are saved by His grace."- H.A. Ironside

"The man that understands the evil of his own heart, how vile it is, is the only useful, fruitful, and solid believing and obedient person. Others are fit only to delude themselves, to disquiet families, churches, and all relations whatever." –John Owen

"In the light of this it is not hard to see why the Christian's attitude toward self is such an excellent test of the validity of his religious experiences.
A good rule is this: If this experience has served to humble me and make me little and vile in my own eyes it is of God; but if it has given me a feeling of self-satisfaction it is false and should be dismissed as emanating from self or the devil." A.W. Tozer

“The light that comes in a special way from Christ, is humbling, abasing, and soul-emptying light; by it a man feels the vileness of his own nature and practice, which begets self-loathing in him; but natural light, on the contrary, puffs up and exalts, makes the heart swell with self-conceitedness (1 Cor 8:1).” – John Flavel

“The clearer the discoveries which Christ makes of Himself, the more humbled shall we be under a sense of our own vileness.” – W.Cardall

“Why are true and sound believers so ready to profess their unworthiness? They have a deeper sense of God's majesty and greatness than others have, and also a more broken-hearted sense of their own vileness by reason of sin. They have a more affective light and sight of things; God is another thing to them than before, so is sin and self.” –Thomas Manton

“The more we think of His patience while we are rebelling, of His mercy in pardoning us and adopting us into His family after all our provocations, the more shall we be affected with our vileness in offending Him.” W. Jay

“The truly humble man, since the fall, is also sensible of his moral meanness and vileness” –Jonathan Edwards


OJ

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If the title of this thread were the Vileness of the Sinner then I woukd agree there is merit in saying the sinner is vile. But this thread presupposes that you are speaking of those redeemed in Christ. Saints in other words. The word 'saint' meaning 'sanctified'. The implicatiion being one who is set apart for God. Holy in other words.

In reading through this thread I see either some willfully or ignorantly choose to exalt their vileness. In some perverse way you think you are exalting Christ. But you are exalting yourself. You are forgetting the cross and the work of Christ to redeem sinners, yes, vile sinners. But not to make vile saints.

I have heard of meetings where people would out do one another to see who was the most vile. They would hide under the pew or crawl down to the altar. Probably shouting 'I am vile. I am vile'. How is this exalting Christ?

The New Testament says 'It is because of him we are in Christ Jesus who has become for us wisdom from God. That is our righteousness, holiness, and redemption. Therefore as it is written let him who boast boast in the Lord.'

Ok. Some may want to boast in their vileness. I choose to boast in Jesus who is my righteousness, holiness, and redemption. Halleujah! What a Savior!

Bearnaster standing down.

C
Christinyou

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

Is this not where we are to keep our praise, thinking on these things.

Ps 37:37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace.
Isa 26:3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.
2Co 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

What is a perfect man?

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

The Christ in me is perfect and where the Lord dwells must be perfect. If the perfect Christ does not dwell in us then we are according to scripture as vile as it gets and sentenced to death and eternal Hell.

So now we live in perfect peace by Him that is born again in us. How can He that is perfect live in a vile person?

This is our standing before God, this is who I am, this is not what I was or what I am now. This is who I am in right standing before God. I still can get rid of this vile flesh that I still live in and that will be the total completeness of who I am in Christ. In whom we are also called sons of the living God. Not the only begotten of Mary but by the Spirit of Christ in me, who is perfect.
Not as though I have attained perfection in the flesh, but by the perfection who now lives in my spirit, I press on for the upward calling in Christ Jesus who gave Himself for me and now lives in me by His own Spirit.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I live because He lives, and I fall He is my Advocate who lifts me up. When convicted of sin, all we have to do is confess our sin and He who is faithful to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteous allow me to keep going forward to that upward calling that "as He is in this world so are we," being change from glory to glory, line upon line, precept upon precept being conformed to the Image of Jesus Christ who is now my Spirit.

In Christ: Phillip as a son by the Son that is in me in whom there is no vileness.

Who gets all the Glory for changing me from a vile sinner to a son?

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How can He that is perfect live in a vile person?

By grace!!

OJ

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If the title of this thread were the Vileness of the Sinner then I woukd agree there is merit in saying the sinner is vile.

Sinners definitely are vile, are you not a sinner? I haven't met anyone who wasn't a sinner. I have met lot's of people who didn't believe they were sinners, but just a little digging usually brings the truth of their sinnership out.

But this thread presupposes that you are speaking of those redeemed in Christ. Saints in other words. The word 'saint' meaning 'sanctified'. The implicatiion being one who is set apart for God. Holy in other words.

Remember the Pharisee who thanked God that he wasn't a sinner 'like this publican'. He couldn't bring himself to see that he had the same vileness in him that the publican did. The reality is that he WASN'T like the publican, the publican was saved, the Pharisee was not.

  Luke 18:11   The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

OJ

C
Christinyou

And by Grace are we not perfect before God and this is our striving, to be in our labour as Christ is in this world, so are we?

Luke 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

It is impossible for me to rid myself with the vileness you speak of. All that God has done in Christ has made the deliverance of this vileness possible. It truly is by Grace and the work of Christ on the Cross, cleansing me from all unrighteousness by His own Blood.

In Christ: Phillip

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NeedHelp

Yes Joe we can all agree with you that you are the vilest person on the planet but to make vile the precious word of God to your vile understanding is to desecrate the word of God in using it in a way to persecute and try to weaken the people of God is a vileness that you shouldn’t want to have to answer to God for so be not high-minded but fear and repent of this thy wickedness before God.

J
JFW

OJ
Yes sir I had read Wesleys' admission, and it seemed apparent by the fruit of his ministry after "hearing" the word of God.
While listening to Paris Reidhead again last night this thread and your stand here came to mind, "oh dear heart, when you see yourself you'll know you'll never be anything other than what you are" the defeated tone of his voice itself confessed the humility of finality in his revelation, as if to say-the only thing fitting for me is crucifixion.
Once our associate pastor had responded to me by saying,"it's not a bad thing to want to be,...but it's a bad thing to try to be the Holy Spirit. He is really good at His job and doesn't need you to do it for Him" this was said in response to my trying to "prove a point","bring conviction" which it would appear that some here have fallen into that ditch also,...
If I may be permitted to ask that any/all on this thread who are truly vested in the Love of the Truth ( 2 Thess 2:10-12) to join in asking the Lord to answer this question of ours,...
R.A. Torrey had a technique, if you will, for addressing just this sort of thing and helped saints grow in maturity bringing a greater harvest to the glory of God, which I trust is our "common ground"
Torrey's method, and I'd ask that we all participate in this, is to agree to offer this prayer each day; "Lord, show me myself" once we have entered into His presence having seen ourselves there is another prayer that Torrey would then offer, which for any interested would be humbly offered here as well. I have hope in my faith that He will receive a mature return on His investment in us, until then...
In Faith,
JFW

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hmmhmm

Any one that is under the new covenant is more perfect than anyone in the old.

verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greather than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater then he.

The most vile person in the new covenant is still less vile then the holiest man in the old.

Although we may in many aspects be vile and horrible creatures, in some ways i can agree to this having seen my own nature and what i am capable of, yet i thrust my entire being upon this word of God

Joh 17:23...and that the world may know that hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou has loved me.


in spite of my or any childs vileness, God loves me/us in the exact same way as he loved His son Jesus Christ.

So no matter how vile we where or are, if we are born again the wonderful thing is i am loved by God in the same way God loved his son, and God will do for me what he did for his Son.

God bless you all.

christian

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sermonindex

I posted this elsewhere, but it applies here as well.

“Again in 7:14 the Apostle says: “I am carnal, sold under sin.” That is the proof of a spiritual and wise man. He knows that he is carnal, and he is displeased with himself; indeed he hates himself and praises the Law of God, which he recognizes because he is spiritual. But the proof of a foolish, carnal man is this, that he regards himself as spiritual and is pleased with himself.” Martin Luther Commentary of the Romans Chapter 7.


OJ

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I posted this elsewhere, and it still applies here, more than ever.

"What shall we say then - This is a kind of a digression, to the beginning of the next chapter, wherein the apostle, in order to show in the most lively manner the weakness and inefficacy of the law, changes the person and speaks as of himself, concerning the misery of one under the law. This St. Paul frequently does, when he is not speaking of his own person, but only assuming another character. The character here assumed is that of a man, first ignorant of the law, then under it and sincerely, but ineffectually, striving to serve God. To have spoken this of himself, or any true believer, would have been foreign to the whole scope of his discourse; nay, utterly contrary thereto, as well as to what is expressly asserted, Rom_8:2."
John Wesley, commentary on Romans Chapter 7.


Thank GOD ~ Paul Knew Victory through The Victor! Amen :)

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Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Rom 13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

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Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Great exhortation, except it is not needed for the righteous, it is only needed for those who recognize the vileness of the lusts of the flesh still resident in them (that whole exhortation is meant for the saved only, it has nothing to do with the lost).


OJ

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As I was making some hummus I started thinking about this thread and about our salvation. I began to wonder how many of us who think of ourselves so vile and after condemning ourselves for falling short of the glory of God still believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are saved? I mean be honest. Anyone who thinks of themselves as wretched and unfit would have a hard time believing that they are saved at all. If anyone says yes, I would have a hard time believing you. I've been there and believe me, you don't think your saved at all when you think your vile. Now to find those rice crackers.

Blessings and Good Night.

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sermonindex

As I was making some hummus I started thinking about this thread and about our salvation. I began to wonder how many of us who think of ourselves so vile and after condemning ourselves for falling short of the glory of God still believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are saved? I mean be honest. Anyone who thinks of themselves as wretched and unfit would have a hard time believing that they are saved at all. If anyone says yes, I would have a hard time believing you. I've been there and believe me, you don't think your saved at all when you think your vile. Now to find those rice crackers.

Good to see you are thinking about it. :-)

"Anyone who thinks of themselves as wretched and unfit would have a hard time believing that they are saved at all."

Sure, if they believed that their fitness or righteousness were requirements for their salvation.

The funny thing is that it goes the opposite. It is when you start thinking about your fitness, worthiness, changedness etc for salvation that you come to depend upon these things instead of Christ. This is what Paul addressed with the Galatians and is what the whole LS house of cards ministry is based on. Take away the card of personal righteousness and the whole thing crumbles.

Once one has an understanding of grace, the matter of fitness and worthiness falls by the wayside, and all that is left is to fall on Christ. The reality is that there are examples here of the most vocal people on the other side of this issue who actually struggle with assurance (for privacy sake I won't quote them). There was a time when I struggled with assurance as well, it was when I fell into the same trap as they are in, but having escaped that trap the struggle is long gone, and there is nothing left but full assurance.

The issue of the vileness of the saint, is only opposed by those who feel they must contribute something to attain or maintain their 'salvation'. These people have to trust what they are doing, and if it were to be considered vile, that which they have placed their hope in becomes crushed. That is where the big opposition to this issue comes. As you can see with Wesley though, he came through his thoughts of perfection to understand his own vileness, so escaping from that trap can be done!


OJ

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And HE gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
That we henceforth be no more children,
tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine,
by the sleight of men, and cunning *craftiness,
whereby they lie in wait to deceive

You don't represent Wesley and that was shown by the quote from Wesley regarding Romans 7 on the bottom of the previous page.
Wesley never preached against "obedience" as you have and are doing in your own subtle way, as was shown last year.
You do not teach according to Wesley and especially not what Paul wrote/taught. You have you're own 'mix' [typical tactic of false teachers] that has caused others to stumble. The deception has been birthed by your desire to be followed, so you put your own twist on Paul's very words - The Word of GOD - by short incomplete quotes from Scripture or authors and accusations leveled against His saints.
This has been ungoing and the whole counsel of GOD's WORD is what is being wrested by you and that is the where you will find your trouble, eventually.
Not with any members here or even the moderators - but with The LORD Himself.
No one wrests HIS WORD with His Sheep without serious consequences, unless they do it out of pure ignorance of His Word and without any ulterior motives.
They are HIS sheep, so fear GOD and HE has delivered HIS Word through His prophets and apostles for them. You represent none and pervert all, thus Eph 4:14 above and 2Pe 3:14-16 "Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of Him in peace, without spot, and blameless and account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

Pray for mercy, Joe. The LORD is a very jealous & protective GOD.

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"To confess that we are rotten, good for nothing, useless and foolish, is not humility, but unbelief!! If we keep on confessing that, we will remain useless forever. False humility like that is often mistaken for the genuine thing by undiscerning believers! But Jesus told us to learn humility from Him (Matt.11:29). And where do we find Jesus ever confessing that He was useless and good for nothing? Never.

True humility is taking the place of entire nothingness before God, so that God might be all in all. This is the place that Jesus took as a man. This is what we must do too. In that lowly place, we can trust God to do a mighty work in us and through us, and to crush Satan under our feet."

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=44164&forum=34&0

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Christinyou

Quote: """"To confess that we are rotten, good for nothing, useless and foolish"""

Is this what we are to keep our minds on? NOT!!!!!

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

This is the lowliness we we should attain to.

Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Not this.

Quote: """"To confess that we are rotten, good for nothing, useless and foolish"""

But this;

""""
is what we must do too. In that lowly place, we can trust God to do a mighty work in us and through us, and to crush Satan under our feet."

Yes:::: with Data's fist. Amen JIG

In Christ: Phillip

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I love Spurgeon, but the basis of his sermon on us being vile is based upon his belief that Romans 7 was of Paul speaking of himself - which Wesley and others do not believe, and neither do I.
And his second reasoning is that we still have "Adam's old nature" ... the two natures belief.
We battle the flesh but our old natures were crucified with Christ.

The thread about 'where are the Godly men' comes to mind - because until a man comes to understand what he has been given in Christ and what is available to him, he'll never experience the fulness of GOD. He'll be short-changed by his own beliefs alone.
Why it's best to learn doctrine from His Book with His help alone first, before reading other's doctrines.
He holds us responsible for deriving our doctrine in that manner only. We'll never be able to blame anyone else for our falling short in His truth and our usefulness to Him.

Amen, Brother Philip.

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Interestingly enough Wesley stands not very far from Tozer theologically speaking, yet neither of them will stand with any as brothers or sisters, who do not recognize their own vileness.

“The same love which fills a man with zeal for God, makes him little, and poor, and vile in his own eyes.” - John Wesley

"In the light of this it is not hard to see why the Christian's attitude toward self is such an excellent test of the validity of his religious experiences.
A good rule is this: If this experience has served to humble me and make me little and vile in my own eyes it is of God; but if it has given me a feeling of self-satisfaction it is false and should be dismissed as emanating from self or the devil." A.W. Tozer


OJ

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Have you read much of Watchman Nee, OJ?

If so, do you feel that he ever taught the exaltation of "self"?

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Not much Watchman Nee for me, but that is a thread derail.

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/2694-watching-out-for-watchman-nee

http://thebereans.net/arm-wnee.shtml

OJ

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Christinyou

Is Christ vile?

Is Christ in you?

In Christ and Christ in me: Phillip

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hmmhmm

I think the closer we come to God the more sinful we become, the more vile one might feel or see, but if one stays there one has missed it... one can never be clensed without first being filthy.

I belive as Tozer says and John Wesley, but both of them did also preach press on towards perfection. If we stay with our eyes focused on our own vileness we will never have victory.

God exposes our own self and nature for a reason that we can overcome and fullfill the very reason he saved us, to become like christ.

When God exposes the vile in me it is not so that i should linger upon it and stay in that place, it is so i can press on and become more Christlike.

B
brothagary

amen and amen , who would want to dwel on them selfs for long ,,,only takes a few minutes and ,spontainous, prayer

blessed are the poor in spirit for theres is the kingdom of heaven


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Christinyou

There is only One Love the Father can rejoice and glory in, the Love of the only obedient begotten Son of the Seed of His Father, given proof by His obedience of ultimate Love, even to the death of the Cross, that Jesus Christ might present to the Father many sons'.

The Love of Christ coming forth from us through us and as us, is the only Love God can receive. The vileness of the son's of God is killed out and the perfect righteous Love of the Christ that is in us and been made in us to be the Glory the Father wants and receives from me by the Christ Love in me.

1 Corinthians 1:27-31 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

I am the week and vile thing in this world that confounds the mighty, thinking they can be what God wants by their good works, I that was despised am chosen which was not and could not bring glory to God unless the Only Son was made in me His righteousness, His wisdom, His sanctification, His redemption, by His prefect Love in me by His Spirit that now lives in me, which without I am none of His, a total and complete vile person headed for Hell and damnation, but praise God I am now headed to the Father's House by Jesus Christ who presents me to the Father without spot or wrinkle.

This is what our new husband has done and is doing to present us to Himself and "Our Father".

Ephesians 5:26-28 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

Ephesians 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Ephesians 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

The Mystery revealed to Paul;

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Praise God this is my striving: by His working, which worketh in me mightily and is not vile.

In Christ, Standing prefect before the Father by the Son:

Phillip

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When God exposes the vile in me it is not so that i should linger upon it and stay in that place, it is so i can press on and become more Christlike.

I guess the question begging to be asked is how Christlike are you?

0%
Less than 1%
About 10%
About 25%
About 50%
About 75%
Surely not 100%

It comes down to the math, when you trend them out 1/infinity = 10/infinity and both ultimately trend to zero or at least as small a number as you can imagine. Christ is infinite, you and I are not. Christ is infinitely good, you and I are not. You, me, and Hitler could be 9,10,11 (doesn't matter who is who) and as far as our Christlikeness goes we are all relative zeroes.

When God exposes the vile in you it actually has a different purpose than having you become more Christlike, what is that purpose?


OJ

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Is Christ vile?

Is Christ in you?

In Christ and Christ in me: Phillip

No.

Yes.

Continuing on:

Does Christ sin? No

Do you sin? Yes

With Christ in you, who you going to blame for that? None other than you. Pretty vile of us to still sin in spite of God working in us. In fact it is even more vile than those who sin without God working in them, because our sin is against grace.

Just like you can't charge Christ with sin, you can't say that His righteousness is physically yours, only that his righteousness may be imputed to you for faith's sake.


OJ

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Christinyou

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


How are we righteous? We are righteous because of Christ, not because of me not sinning. Christ can never be the minister of sin. If I build upon the law again, I fall into the trap which Christ came to destroy, so I cannot be resurrected into the Law and condemnation ever again, or Christ died in vain. If I sin or when I sin, only confession is necessary to receive God's Grace in Christ Jesus, He is the only reason God is faithful to forgive and cleanse from all unrighteousness.

Romans 8:35-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

There is only vileness left in the flesh and it is dead before God and this is how we are to see ourselves, alive unto God by His Spirit that is now in us.

Romans 8:35-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If you want to stay in the vileness of condemned sinners in the flesh, that is your choice.. That is not why Christ went to the cross, He went to the cross to redeem this vile sinner, He by His Spirit which is perfect gives me this perfection by; Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Not teaching the vileness of the saint anymore. But by the Christ in you the Hope of Glory. This teaching is in the wisdom of Christ who is now our wisdom, made unto us by the Father.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Not vileness.
"He who's mind is kept on Me, I will keep him in perfect peace" Not the corrupt mind of vileness.

In Christ: Phillip

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Those two links about Nee are inaccurate.

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sermonindex

{thread de-rail on}

Do you believe this site then?

http://www.watchmannee.org/major-teachings.html

From Watchman Nee’s own words:
“He also resurrected from the dead and was transformed from God's only begotten Son to God's firstborn Son. Furthermore, in resurrection He became the life-giving Spirit to enter into the believers…”

“His resurrection also transformed Him into a life-giving Spirit, the Holy Spirit, the reality of life, who enters into His believers to regenerate them, to bring their humanity into divinity…”

“He is the reality of the Triune God, the reality of Christ, the reality of all the truths, and the reality of the resurrection of Christ.”

“After His death, His whole being was resurrected, and in resurrection He was transformed into a life-giving Spirit.”


According to Watchman Nee, Jesus Christ (second person of the Trinity) became the Holy Spirit (third person of the Trinity) at the resurrection, and he repeated it several times to be clear; this is patently false. When a person has made a wrong turn at the person of Christ, it matters not how big of house they have built, it is built on sand and will be crushed at the judgment. I learned very early on that Watchman Nee was a false teacher, in reading a book of his, can’t remember which one, but it ended up in the trash within a few chapters.

{thread de-rail off}


OJ

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"We are COUNTED AS righteous because of FAITH IN Christ,"

Note the additions, they satisfy Romans 3:10 which clearly states "there is none righteous, no not one" not even Philip in his newborn state. But according to Romans 4 Philip is allowed to be COUNTED AS RIGHTEOUS for faith's sake.

"Christ can never be the minister of sin."

But you and I sure can be, in spite of the work of Christ. That is what is vile about us.

What is merciful and gracious about Christ is that He will receive us anyway.

OJ

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mguldner

Not to stir any strife with this thread but the Holiest man that ever walked the earth can be reliably quoted as saying:

“Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone." -Jesus

This is not to say Christ is denying His Godship by pointing to the fact that not one of us is good. Only God.

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Who's calling 'themselves' good, Mathew?
Incredible!

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OJ - this is the quote from the link you just posted...

The Spirit
He pointed out that the Spirit is the application of the Triune God. The Spirit reaches those who have believed into and received God the Son. The Spirit applies to them God the Father who is in God the Son. He is the Spirit of life and the reality of life; He is also the life-giving Spirit, dispensing life to those who believe into the Son. As such, He is the regenerating Spirit who regenerates the believers with the life of God the Father in God the Son, making them the children of God. He then becomes the indwelling Spirit within them as the reality of all things. He is the renewing Spirit who renews the man of the old creation into God's new creation with God's eternally new and never-aging life. He is also the sanctifying Spirit who separates and sanctifies the believers with God's sanctifying nature. He is the transforming Spirit who transforms them with the life element of Christ into His image. He is the firstfruits, the foretaste, of God as the eternal portion of those who have believed into the Son. He is the Spirit of power poured out on the believers of the Son as the authority for their work. He is the reality of the Triune God, the reality of Christ, the reality of all the truths, and the reality of the resurrection of Christ. Only by receiving Him will a man possess the Triune God, the truths, Christ, and the resurrection of Christ.


I don't know if you understand that The Three Are ONE GOD but it doesn't appear that you do understand that.


Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one. [Does that leave out The Spirit of GOD or The Spirit of Christ Jesus?

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him,
and WE will come unto him, and make OUR ABODE with him.


Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth **the Spirit of his Son** into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Eph 3:17 **That Christ may dwell in your hearts** by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

The OT Prophets -- 1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time **the Spirit of Christ which was in them** did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the **Spirit of God** dwell in you. Now if any man have not the **Spirit of Christ**, he is none of his.

Rom 8:10 And **if Christ be in you**, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Php 1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the **Spirit of Jesus Christ**

Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by **His Spirit** in the inner man

1Jn 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of **His Spirit**

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by **the Spirit of God**, they are the sons of God.

1Cor 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but **the Spirit of God.**

**1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of **the Spirit of God:** for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.**

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mguldner

This was posted to reinforce Old Joe's point Not one is righteous.

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That verse, is one that we use in "The Romans Road" pertaining to the UnSaved - Not the Saved.

Joe uses other verses that are directed to the unsaved to the saved as well.

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I see you are defending his aberrant view of Christ JIG, not surprising though. However we are trying to stick to the subject of this thread which is the vileness of the saint in his own eyes. You attempt to dominate nearly every thread on the forum, but this one isn't for you, it is for those who see themselves as vile, because they have met with God, have seen His glory and are left with nothing of themselves to brag about.

OJ

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Not to stir any strife with this thread but the Holiest man that ever walked the earth can be reliably quoted as saying:

“Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone." -Jesus

This is not to say Christ is denying His Godship by pointing to the fact that not one of us is good. Only God.

PRECISELY!!!!

NONE are good, NONE are righteous, only some have faith that is COUNTED for righteousness!!!

OJ

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Those Scripture verses have everything to do with how we should "see ourselves 'in' Christ" - so not off topic!

Lie #2 - There are few threads that I get involved in - if you look down the index pages of any section.

WE do not "own" threads, regardless if we've started them or not.


If you only truly knew what you have said and are saying about some of us here. Sad for you, truly, but thanking GOD there's no longer the PM service for you to do what you've done with it in the past. It's all out in the open now and the vulnerable are safer. This is not a tit-for-tat Lee, this is reality time.

Ann

P.S. - if you're going to quote Rom 3:10 - could you please read the whole chpt before you use it wrongfully again. It's HIS Word.

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The page that you posted is by Witness Lee who is writing what Nee believed from Lee's own perspective. The wording of it, now that I've read the whole of it, does not sound like anything I've read of him, as far as what you posted.

I'll quote a Brother from SI here -

Most of Nee's books aren't really "books" in the formal sense of the term. I think he only actually wrote one or two books. Most of the "books" written in his name are just transcribed sermons or a random assortment of short essays that he wrote that others have transcribed and compiled.

I've also posted here in the past, that there are things that Nee believed, mainly his eschatology and a few minor points that I haven't agreed with and I believe we could probably say the same about most of the Classic authors as well.

But Nee was great with teaching the crucified life -- Not walking after our own human abilities [flesh] but how to become dependent on His Spirit. He truly understood the concept of Gal 2:20.

---

Brother Philip, I appreciated that you ended your post with this verse - 1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Thank you!

C
Christinyou

""Christ liveth in me.""

Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, ((((((but Christ liveth in me:)))))) and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

2 Corinthians 6:15-18 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

YOU cannot have it both ways, either you are vile and don't have the Spirit of Christ living in you or you are precious in His sight, because "Christ liveth in me". Christ cannot live in a vile person, so how are we to consider ourselves if we know that Christ lives in us?

Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

He that is in me is not vile, He cannot live with belial. So how do we present every man perfect in Christ?

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

""""Christ in you"""", is the only way.

In Christ: Phillip

S
sermonindex

If you only truly knew what you have said and are saying about some of us here. Sad for you, truly, but thanking GOD there's no longer the PM service for you to do what you've done with it in the past. It's all out in the open now and the vulnerable are safer. This is not a tit-for-tat Lee, this is reality time.

This isn't reality time, reality time comes at judgment Ann, then you will learn that you have denied the person of Christ, but until then you get to reign here.


OJ

S
sermonindex

I am amazed that this thread is still going on.

Can it get any more viler than this? (hehe)

C
Christinyou

Romans 8:28-39 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I will not continue to be a vile person, even as I once was.
I am that I am by the Christ that lives in me.

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

I was vile, but by the Son of God in whose image I am being formed from glory to glory, I am not vile anymore. It is God that justifies me by the Son, not even I can make God a liar, He will accomplish what He has begun in me. I would be vile if I did not believe this, by the Faith of the Son of God that lives in me, because as He is in this world so are we.

This is the only Law we are to live by.

Romans 8:2-14 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

A vile son of God? That is not possible.

In Christ: Phillip

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