Hey,
So can anybody answer the above question? My friend believe that it is only a recent phenomena that is unbiblical and says that tongues ceased after the early church..
However I speak in tongues and he believers that people who speak in tongues are either deceived or of the devil.
If you could help me and link me to books/ websites that would be MOST helpful!
In Christ
Evangel
I don't have the resources at my fingertips but a good friend shared with me that several of the early Presbyterian had the gift despite it scorned at the time. I'll have to ask him for some links.
http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/articles.php?display=article07
I hope this will help :)
hi, luther wrote a great hymn:a mighty fortrace is our God. in the 4th stanza he wrote that the Spirit and the gifts are ours.jimp
It sounds like your friends mind is made up.
Here is a link...
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Glossolalia
When he has a need someday, offer to pray for him and allow him to experience your gift, the Lord might work mightily through that.
God bless,
Lisa
Let's not get carried away... praying for someone's needs in tongues is no more powerful than not. God does not honor prayers offered in tongues anymore than He does the simple plea of a child or an adult who approaches Him as a little child.
Which one of us has had the impact of someone like Billy Graham, or Charles Spurgeon, or Billy Sunday, or etc etc? Not even close. And imagine... none of them spoke or prayed in tongues.
Some people are given the gift of tongues, and some are not. Scripture is VERY plain about that. Let's not be ignorant.
1 Corinthians 12:27-31 "Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all possess gifts of healing? DO ALL SPEAK WITH TONGUES? DO ALL INTERPRET? But earnestly desire the higher gifts."
Two things here...
1) Paul is asking a question that has an obvious answer in order to make a point... and the obvious answer to all of his questions is: "NO"...
2) Paul conlcudes this line of questions with "earnestly desire the higher gifts". TONGUES is the LOWEST gift, and Paul goes on elsewhere to proove that point.
If you back up to verse 10 Paul even says: "to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, TO ANOTHER VARIOUS KINDS OF TONGUES, to another the interpretation of tongues."
So this gift, regardless of what some churches teach (in error) is NOT for every believer. God NEVER intended it for every believer, nor does He GIVE it to every believer. And having that gift does not make a believer special. In fact, that gift all too often gets ruined by that believers inability to control his or her own pride. And this is the whole reason why Paul wrote this portion of scripture. To deal with believers pride. It's not really even about tongues or gifts, it's dealing with sinful pride and believers who think they are something special.
And then Paul nails it down hard in verse 11 when he says: "All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as HE (the Holy Spirit/GOD) WILLS."
It's all according to HIS WILL, not ours. Pray till you're blue in the face, but if God has something else in mind for you OTHER than giving you the gift of tongues... thats HIS decision and He will not give it to you.
So if He has given you the gift of hospitality and not tongues... rejoice. Dont let those who have the gift of tongues lie to you and tell you it's for every believer and that it is THE sign that you're truly born again or baptized in the Spirit. Thats not true.
To say that is to say that Billy Graham is not born again or baptised in the Spirit. Or Spurgeon... or Billy Sunday... etc etc.
And then there are those who "speak in tongues" that really are not, and they are deceived and/or abusing "tongues". Personally I believe that would apply to the majority of those who claim to speak in tongues. I believe just like with people who are actually saved, there are few who actually have the gift of tongues.
Narrow is the gate and FEW are those who find it.
I do not go around judging who is really speaking in tongues and who is not. If you claim to have the gift great! I hope you do. Now be quiet about it and use it according to HIS WILL... use it in your prayer closet. Be humble about it. LOVE is the greatest gift, practice that one in public.
Krispy
By the way, some may read what I wrote and take that to mean I am saying people here are "lying". Thats not what I mean. I am, however, calling it "error" and "unbiblical" to assert that tongues is the evidence that someone is born again or baptised in the Spirit.
If someone claims that I do not think they are purposely lying, I know many sincerely believe that. But the Bible makes it clear that that is sincerely wrong.
So... it's not my intention to call into question anyone's character. I'm just trying to point out truth.
Krispy
Because clearly u have cornered the market on truth. It's amazing to see how u discourage people when they are looking for truth. Sometimes your opnions about things should remain to yourself. Spirit calls out to spirit not flesh. Brother I know u mean well but sometimes we should just be silent. And Krispy I know u love the Lord and His Word but honestly no man can have an answer for every scripture.
For someone who rejects the "speaking in tongues" you seem to know a lot about the subject.Let's not get carried away... praying for someone's needs in tongues is no more powerful than not. God does not honor prayers offered in tongues anymore than He does the simple plea of a child or an adult who approaches Him as a little child.
Since you don't believe that this gift (tongues of Angels) exist today and believe that those who speak in tongues today are deceived, and frankly you don't know what your talking about when you say that God does not honour prayers offered in tongues.
1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all possess gifts of healing? DO ALL SPEAK WITH TONGUES? DO ALL INTERPRET? But earnestly desire the higher gifts."
The obvious answer is not your "NO". The answer is "NOT EVERYONE".
When you say that the gift is the lowest, your putting also everything else on that list. Apostles, Prophets, Teachers, Miracle Workers, Gifts of healing.
Make sure you include all the gifts in that list because that is what your doing. If you remove one you remove them all. What about the gift of the Holy Spirit, are we to say we don't need that one either? I know your answer is no, but still, that is what your doing. What you don't understand you should leave alone lest you find yourself fighting against God.So this gift, regardless of what some churches teach (in error) is NOT for every believer.
Smith Wigglesworth believed like you. Against the gift, but eventually fell into "error" as you put it.
Too Late!I do not go around judging who is really speaking in tongues and who is not.
Your instructions are, to be quiet about it, use it according to His will and use it in your prayer closet.If you claim to have the gift great! I hope you do. Now be quiet about it and use it according to HIS WILL... use it in your prayer closet.
Your encouragement is very weak brother, "I hope you do" is so so lame coming from you. It's like the baptist who believes that tongues should be in order in Church but don't allow it to manifest. Good one man!
"Now be quiet about it". Ah yes, you did say love is the greatest of the gifts. And yet, "Faith worketh by love".
Faith is not how the world defines it, a tenet of beliefs. The faith of the bible operates in the realm of love and is an action word. Jesus would say often, "Where is your faith". Basically saying, "why is it not in operation, do you not love me?".
When God moves on an individual to speak in tongues in a service because He wishes to encourage the body through this gift, it takes love from the individual who loves God to act in faith to obey Him.
Even though this is the least of the gifts, God has highly esteemed it because it's one of those gifts that men of reason can't get their minds around.
The natural thinking mind is enmity against God, it's not subject to laws of God neither indeed can be.
"Be humble about it. LOVE is the greatest gift, practice that one in public."
The act of speaking in tongues in a church or home or where ever it might be, is a humbling experience. And love is the greatest of the gifts. Practising love in public is doing the will of God which includes all the gifts, even the least of them for they all come from God and because something is least should we despise one of Gods attributes because we think it's lesser?
Jesus was made a little lower than the angels, should we think less of Him because He was lowered to our pitiful state? Of course not.
We'll let others decide, especially those that are in the same 'error' as I.
God Bless
Because clearly u have cornered the market on truth. It's amazing to see how u discourage people when they are looking for truth. Sometimes your opnions about things should remain to yourself. Spirit calls out to spirit not flesh. Brother I know u mean well but sometimes we should just be silent. And Krispy I know u love the Lord and His Word but honestly no man can have an answer for every scripture.
What I wrote was based on scripture, friend. Scripture is plain and so there you have it.
And no, when I see something being said that is not true I wont be silent. Thats about the worst piece of advice I seen on this site yet.
Krispy
The Evidence and Results of the Baptism With the Holy Spirit
An experience so great and so important as the baptism with the Holy Spirit undoubtedly will be accompanied by unmistakable evidences, so that the recipient will have no doubts whatsoever that he has indeed received the promise of the Father. Some of the evidence is manifested immediately, while others continue on a permanent basis as one walks in the fullness of the Spirit.
1.\tImmediate evidences.
a)\tSpeaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance (Acts 2:4; 10:44-46; 19:6). The question of the initial evidence of the reception of the gift of the Holy Spirit is one of paramount importance to all who hunger to be filled with the Spirit. It is logical that the supernatural experience of the baptism with the Holy Spirit would be accompanied by some definite and unmistakable sign by which the seeker would be assured that he had received it. There are many operations of the Spirit, but only one baptism with the Spirit. If there were no particular supernatural evidence of the baptism with the Spirit by which it could be distinguished from all other operations of the Spirit, how could anyone be assured of the experience? We believe that the initial evidence of the baptism with the Holy Spirit is that of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance. The evidence of the Spirit's fullness on the Day of Pentecost was that of speaking with other tongues by the prompting of the Holy Spirit: "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance" (Acts 2:4). The manifestation of the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost was the original outpouring of the empowerment of the Church. It was the pattern for the Pentecostal experience. What the disciples did when they were first filled, we reasonably expect all who are filled in the same sense to do. Inasmuch as the purpose of the anointing was to give power to witness, it is not surprising that the sign of the experience was manifested in their utterance.
In addition to the initial outpouring of the Spirit as recorded in Acts 2:4, we have the account of the reception of the Spirit by the believers in the house of Cornelius, given in Acts 10:44-46:
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them that heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
It is interesting and important to note how the Jews who came with Peter knew that these Gentiles had received the Holy Ghost experience that the disciples received on the Day of Pentecost. The Scripture says that they knew because "they heard them speak with tongues." This verse reads literally, "For they, hearing them continuing to speak with tongues." Their speaking in tongues was no brief confusion of syllables, but a full and flowing use of a language, which brought amazement to the hearers. Now, if those present were convinced that the Gentiles had an equivalent Holy Ghost experience to that enjoyed by the Jews on the grounds of their speaking with tongues, then tongues must be the unmistakable sign or initial evidence of the Pentecostal experience. One can know today that his baptism is a genuine Pentecostal experience, equivalent to that of the disciples, when he experiences speaking with other tongues by the power of the Spirit. One does not seek the tongues, but the Spirit Himself. However, he does seek such a sign as will make him sure that he has been filled in biblical fashion.
A third such account of believers receiving the fullness of the Spirit where it is specifically mentioned that they spoke with tongues is recorded in Acts 19:6: "And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied." This was in the city of Ephesus. The theory that some have advanced is that the Spirit's anointing with the evidence of speaking with other tongues was only given when a new racial group accepted the gospel, such as the Jews at Pentecost, the Samaritans in Philip's revival, and the Gentiles in the house of Cornelius. But this theory breaks down here in Acts 19:6, where no new ethnic group can be distinguished. The same could be said of the Corinthians, who certainly spoke with tongues.
Some oppose tongues as the exclusive initial evidence of this baptism on the grounds that tongues are not always mentioned in the Bible in connection with the baptism with the Holy Spirit. It is true that three accounts say nothing of tongues, but the omission is due to the brevity of those accounts. In the record of the outpouring on the Samaritans (Acts 8:14-19) no mention is made of an accompanying sign, but the fact that Simon was willing to pay money for the power to impart the gift of the Spirit shows that some audible or visible sign made the gift spectacular. It is logical to assume that he heard them speak with tongues.
In Acts 4:31 there is no mention of tongues: "And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness." But this could well have been a refilling of those who were initially baptized on the Day of Pentecost.
In Acts 9:17 we do not read that Paul spoke with tongues when he received the Spirit. Nonetheless, that he did is quite certain from his testimony: "I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all" (1 Cor. 14:18).
In this connection, two thoughts should be noted. First, the first and last biblical accounts of the reception of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4; 19:6) mention that the recipients spoke with tongues. Secondly, in every account of outpourings of the Holy Spirit where any sign is mentioned, tongues is signified. Where no signs at all are spoken of, there is strong evidence that the recipients did so speak.
The Pentecostal Fellowship of North America is an association of twenty-two of the largest Pentecostal denominations in North America. The statement of faith to which all member groups must agree has as its sixth point: "We believe that the full gospel includes holiness of heart and life, healing for the body and the baptism in the Holy Spirit, with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance."
There are some who teach that the initial evidence of tongues is not always necessary to assure that one has received the fullness of the Spirit, but that any of the other gifts of the Spirit could be the evidence of the Pentecostal experience. These sometimes mention Acts 19:6, where we read, "They spake with tongues, and prophesied."
It is never claimed that all that one will do when filled with the Spirit is to speak with tongues. Other gifts may well be manifested. All that is claimed here is that the newly baptized believers at Ephesus did speak with tongues, as well as prophecy. Why is it claimed that speaking with tongues is the sign of the filling more than any other gift of the Spirit? Because all of the gifts of the Spirit were more or less manifested in Old Testament times, with the lone exception of speaking with other tongues and its accompanying gift of interpretation of tongues.
•\tThe word of wisdom—Joshua (Dt. 34:9) and Solomon (1 Ki. 3:9-12)
•\tThe word of knowledge—Bezaleel (Ex. 31:3)
•\tFaith—Abraham (Gen. 15:6)
•\tGifts of healing—Elijah (1 Ki. 17:17-23) and Elisha (2 Ki. 4:18-37)
•\tWorking of miracles—Elijah (2 Ki. 1:10), Elisha (2 Ki. 6:4-7), and Moses (Ex. 7:10, 20)
•\tProphecy—Isaiah, David (2 Sam. 23:2), and Balaam (Num. 24:2)
•\tDiscerning of spirits—Ahijah (1 Ki. 14:1-6) and Moses (Ex. 32:17-19)
God was doing a new thing at Pentecost—something never experienced before—and the sign accompanying it was something never witnessed previously. Thus, it was a most significant sign.
b) Important points to note:
(1) Speaking in tongues is not the baptism with the Holy Spirit. It is the initial evidence, but not the only one.
(2) Do not seek to speak with tongues as though it were the baptism with the Holy Spirit—seek more of God and yield to Him. He will take care of the rest.
(3) It may well be true that some have apparently spoken in tongues who have not received the baptism with the Holy Spirit—the word apparently is used because it is believed that many of these are not real languages at all. The devil has a counterfeit for this gift, as he does for all others, but the earnest seeker for more of God need have no fear whatever that he is going to receive anything but God's best (Lk. 11:11-13).
c) Other immediate evidences of a new experience of the anointing of the Spirit in the life will include praise to God (Acts 2:11; 2:47; 10:46), an overflowing joy (Acts 2:46), and a deep burden and desire to preach or testify about Jesus (Acts 1:8; 2:14-18; 19:6).
2. Permanent evidences.
a) Jesus Christ glorified and revealed as never before (Jn. 14:21-23; 15:26; 16:13-15). The Holy Spirit centers all things in Christ. A new love is born for Him that will increase as one follows on in the Spirit-filled life. The Holy Spirit imparts the ability to comprehend the greatness of the Savior—His person and provisions (Eph. 1:17-23). It is recognized that many of these Scriptures are realized through the ministry of the Holy Spirit as the Comforter who indwells all believers, but experience demonstrates that all ministries of the Holy Spirit are enhanced as a result of the Pentecostal baptism with the Spirit.
b) A deeper passion for souls. One cannot read the history of the early Church immediately after Pentecost without realizing how there was a burning desire to proclaim the way of salvation (Acts 2:14-41; 4:19-20; 5:29-33; 6:8-10; 11:22-24; 26:28-29).
c) A greater power to witness (Acts 1:8; 2:41; 4:31-33; Jn. 15:26-27; 1 Cor. 2:4-5).
d) A new power in, and spirit of, prayer (Acts 3:1, 4:23-31; 6:4; 10:9; Rom. 8:26; Jude 20; Eph. 6:18; 1 Cor. 14:14-17).
e) A deeper love for, and richer insight into, the Word of God (Jn. 16:13).
f) The manifestations of the gifts of the Spirit (1 Cor. 12:4-11).
Foundations of Pentecostal Theology.
Approved...
For someone who rejects the "speaking in tongues" you seem to know a lot about the subject.
Really? You know this? Did you even read what I wrote?
Since you don't believe that this gift (tongues of Angels) exist today and believe that those who speak in tongues today are deceived, and frankly you don't know what your talking about when you say that God does not honour prayers offered in tongues.
Wow... you totally did not read what I wrote. Go back and read what I wrote and you will see that what you just said in that paragraph is foolish.
The obvious answer is not your "NO". The answer is "NOT EVERYONE".
Uh... yea... thats what I said. The answer to the question of "do all speak with tongues" is NO... not all do. Thats what I said.
When you say that the gift is the lowest, your putting also everything else on that list. Apostles, Prophets, Teachers, Miracle Workers, Gifts of healing.
Read Chapter 13 (the very next Chapter... of which Paul introduced in the last verse of Chapter 12 with "now I will show you a better way")
Your instructions are, to be quiet about it, use it according to His will and use it in your prayer closet.
You got that part right! Yea!
Your encouragement is very weak brother, "I hope you do" is so so lame coming from you. It's like the baptist who believes that tongues should be in order in Church but don't allow it to manifest. Good one man!
Again, you are making foolish assumptions about me.
Even though this is the least of the gifts....
Wait... you scolded me for saying that...
I could respond to more, but whats the point? Your whole response is based on two things:
1) I dont believe you carefully read what I wrote. You could not have and reacted to it and me the way you did.
2) You have made assumptions about me and what I believe when in fact you really have no idea what I believe on the matter.
Love ya brother but your reaction was baseless, judgemental and frankly rather foolish because you've never asked me what I believe on this, altho it was stated and/or implied in what I wrote.
Notice I have never made statements declaring what YOU believe. Why? Because I am wise enough to realize I dont know you well enough to know what you believe.
Krispy
rbanks... that speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of being baptised in the Spirit is an opinion based doctrine. Not every case in scripture shows it being so. It's a stretch. Interestly this is the difference between Pentecostalism and Charismatic... Pentecostals believe it is the initial evidence, and Charismatics generally give room to the fact that it is not always accompanied with it (just as Paul wrote in Corinthians 12).
I would mention what Baptists teach, but lately there has been a lot of hostility and hatred of Baptists on this site... so I wont go there.
Krispy
krispy wrote:
Let's not get carried away... praying for someone's needs in tongues is no more powerful than not. God does not honor prayers offered in tongues anymore than He does the simple plea of a child or an adult who approaches Him as a little child.
First: I didn’t say that God honored tongues more than anyone else’s prayers, you assumed that.
Secondly: In my experience, praying in tongues for someone’s need is indeed more powerful than praying in English. I support that with what Jesus said in John 16.13, “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but WHATSOEVER HE SHALL HEAR, THAT SHALL HE SPEAK...”
The Holy Spirit speaks what He hears so I am confident that whenever I am praying in tongues, God is honoring it. When we pray in the Spirit, He is the one praying, brother, not us! And thank God for it!
God bless,
Lisa
Lysa, I did not say God does not honor it. If you look at what you just wrote you will realize that we said the exact same thing.
This is what happens when people expect me to say one thing because of assumptions they've made about me, and then I dont say what they expect. What I really am saying gets completely by-passed.
Krispy
Please forgive me. My reply was not fitting and I truly apologize. Not worth keeping.
"Without the Holy Spirit there is no power."
Amen.
Joyful heart, a testimony...:-) I was in the back of this small church one Sunday evening and worshipping the Lord before the pastor came and spoke. Well during the worship he asked for an altar call and the majority of the people left their seats and moved up front. About that time I sank to my knees and was continuing to worship the lord. My son who is now 8 was 6 then, crawled into my lap at that time and the next thing I know I look down and he is praying in tongues as fluently as any grown adult can speak their native tongue. It was such an amazing time. One that I will always cherish.
EvangelTam, please forgive me for taking part in hijacking your thread. I didn't start it but I would hope to bring it to a close. God bless, Lisa
Some people are given the gift of tongues, and some are not. Scripture is VERY plain about that. Let's not be ignorant.
And it’s here in this “public gathering” that God has set first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
Please read the above again.... Paul states very clearly what a healthy public assembly should look like and what is definitely listed or included? Different kinds of tongues are and no exceptions are made.
In verses 29 & 30, Paul continues on talking about the healthy public assembly and who is included... Can all be apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?”
Paul is saying that not every single person (all) in the public assembly can be an apostle, nor can they all be a prophet, nor can they all be a teacher, nor can they all be a worker or miracles, nor can they all have the gifts of healing, nor can they all be a speak with tongues,.
Brother, I humbly submit that what Paul is commenting on here is that ALL cannot give messages PUBLICLY in tongues to the church. I submit that because all the other gifts that he listed with it are gifts that are used publically; you can’t teach alone, you need people to learn; you can’t be an apostle alone, you need to build a churches with people; you can’t heal alone, you need sick people to heal. Does that make sense?
Another reason for my believing that is in 1 Cor 14.28 Paul states very plainly that IN THE CHURCH it is OK to speak in tongues to yourself and to God if there is no interpreter.... “but if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.” We are meant to speak in tongues in our homes and in the public assembly.
I believe that God means for all his children to speak in tongues “IF” they want the gift and I believe that our adversary, the devil, has taken that one statement “do all speak with tongues?” and robbed the children of God from having a full Spirit-filled life.
God bless you all,
Lisa
Obviously some of this I agree with you, sister Lisa... but some of it I do not. I am rock solid on what I believe scripture teaches concerning this topic... so while I appreciate you writing this all out for me, it was not necessary.
:-)
Krispy
by KrispyKrittr on 2012/3/6 8:31:40Lysa, I did not say God does not honor it. If you look at what you just wrote you will realize that we said the exact same thing.
This is what happens when people expect me to say one thing because of assumptions they've made about me, and then I dont say what they expect. What I really am saying gets completely by-passed.
Your original copied statement:
God does not honor prayers offered in tongues anymore than He does the simple plea of a child or an adult who approaches Him as a little child.
I should have written:
First: I didn’t say that God honored prayers offered in tongues more than anyone else’s prayers...
For that I apologize.
But, correct me if I'm wrong! but I think you replied to my statement of:
When he has a need someday, offer to pray for him and allow him to experience your gift, the Lord might work mightily through that.
(I know you probably won't see this, because I think we just posted something at the same time!!!) and I have to work a double tonight so you won't hear back from me after 3 pm today!
God bless you, brother
Lisa
by KrispyKrittr
Obviously some of this I agree with you, sister Lisa... but some of it I do not. I am rock solid on what I believe scripture teaches concerning this topic... so while I appreciate you writing this all out for me, it was not necessary.
It was for any and all who might have questions about that scripture. (edit: and another logical explanation)
:-) !! Back at cha, brother!
You are correct, I did reply to this:
When he has a need someday, offer to pray for him and allow him to experience your gift, the Lord might work mightily through that.
Because I believe as scripture teaches; that not all will speak in tongues (i.e. it is not a gift God bestows on all, according to Corinth 12), the implication of what you are saying will lead someone who God has gifted with some other gift to think that you may be saying that God will not honor or work through their prayer because it's not done in tongues.
And my point was... a prayer spoken in a known tongue is just as honored, answered and effective as a prayer prayed in tongues.
Case in point: Billy Graham. Never spoke or prayed in tongues, and not one person on this forum has been used of God in such a mighty way. How does one explain that?
I explain it by saying that God gives the gifts as HE sees fit. And He will honor a prayer prayed in earnestness and love toward Him.... tongues or not.
I find it telling that whenever I bring up Billy Graham, or Spurgeon, or Billy Sunday no one has ever addressed that head on. Why? Because no one can. Some of the mightiest men of God never uttered a word in tongues, but spiritually they were heads and shoulders waaaay above any of us. The only explanation is that God gives the gifts as HE WILLS.
And I'll be totally honest with you, tongues is NOT a sign of someone being more spiritual... and tongues does NOT make a person spiritual. I've known many (not all) tongues speakers who live like dogs and are completely carnel. So much so that I wonder if they are even saved.
Krispy
After The Apostles & Before 1900:
1. Justin Martyr (AD 100-165) wrote "The prophetical gift remains with us even to the present time" (Dialogue with Trypho, Volume 1.) In his work called "The Second Apology of Justin," he speaks of the ability of Christians in his day to cast out demons and administer healing.
2. Irenaeus (AD 125-200) In his "Against Heresies," Volume 1, he describes Christians as those who cast out devils, have visions, prophecy, lay hands on the sick, and raise the Dead. He also testified that believers were still speaking with tongues.
3. Tertullian (AD 160-240) In “A Treatise On The Soul,” Tertullian wrote, “For seeing that we acknowledge the spiritual charismata, or gifts, we too have merited the attainment of the prophetic gift.” In his “Against Marcion, Tertullian revealed his acquaintance with speaking with tongues, and viewed the gifts of the Spirit as a sign of Orthodoxy.
4. Origen (AD 185-284) In his work “Agains Celsus,” Origen spoke of miracles being performed. He defends speaking with tongues. He links praying in the Spirit with praying in tongues. Origen was the first early church father to express concern over a diminishing of spiritual gifts in the church. However, he saw this being a result of a lack of holiness and not the will of God.
5. The Monastic Movement (AD 300 - ) Anthnasius wrote about the life of Anthony (the father of Monasticism). He wrote of Anthony as being a man who was filled with the supernatural.
6 (The Middle Ages) A significant Jealousy arose between the church at Rome and the common people. Around AD 1000 the Roman church declared that speaking in tongues among the common people were to be considered evidence of demon possession. However, among the church hierarchy it could be considered evidence of sainthood.
7. The Waldenses (1176 – beyond the 16th century) This group sought to find the biblical pattern for a New Testament church. Divine healings as well as the gifts of the Spirit were part of their ministry
8. Martin Luther – Stanley Frodsham’s book entitled “With Signs Following” quotes a work in German by Souer who described Luther as one who spoke with tongues and was endowed with the gifts of the Spirit. It has also been shown that the Anabaptists of the 16th century had a great interest in the gifts of the Spirit as also did the Morovians.
9. The Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee) This Pentecostal movement began in 1896. During a revival in Cherokee County, North Carolina. It is said that many spoke with tongues during this revival. This belief and practice continues today in this denomination.
Oh dear. LOL. I am going to have a big smile for you brother when the day that this "rock" solid belief of yours becomes like water. Many men have said the same thing and fell into what you call 'error'.I am rock solid on what I believe scripture teaches concerning this topic...
Let me say further though. Just because you think it's truth doesn't mean it is truth. We have thousands of denominations worldwide that all claim that they have truth and they are "rock solid" in what they believe. And they too all say, "what I have written is scriptural". Those words carry very little significance. We've even hear people say, "I did a study on it". I guess that's suppose to mean that that their conclusions are final. Dear God help us!
Well done Docseth!
Oh dear. LOL. I am going to have a big smile for you brother when the day that this "rock" solid belief of yours becomes like water. Many men have said the same thing and fell into what you call 'error'.Let me say further though. Just because you think it's truth doesn't mean it is truth. We have thousands of denominations worldwide that all claim that they have truth and they are "rock solid" in what they believe. And they too all say, "what I have written is scriptural". Those words carry very little significance. We've even hear people say, "I did a study on it". I guess that's suppose to mean that that their conclusions are final. Dear God help us!
And if you knew anything about me or my history since becoming a Christian you would probably not say that to me.
Once again, get to know someone before you make assumptions.
The funny thing is that if someone wants to get to know me I can be an open book. Yet, when someone (like you) thinks they have me figured out... it is then that I become ellusive and coy. I dont want to let you know me, I'd rather enjoy watching you think you do. It's entertaining.
:-)
By the way, thats a very post-modern "nobody can really ever be sure of what to believe" statement that you made. Be careful lest you sound like the emergent church. Thats the sad thing with the church today... someone who is confident in what they believe is scorned and ridiculed not just by the lost world... but by Christians.
The funny and ironic things is... you are condident that I am wrong! lol ...you do see the hypocricy in that, right?
You do not even see the pride in the things you say to me, brother. You call me prideful? And you think I am blind?
Krispy
Are you an advocate for the truth and really want genuine revival for the people of God? Then don’t try to explain away the written word of God because you haven’t experienced something that is clearly written in the Word of God.
Let’s be about contending for the faith once delivered unto the saints. Let’s study the words of the original apostles rather than the words of men who are hung up on some “ism” and yet can’t seem to believe what the original apostles have already written.
Acts 1:4-8 (KJV)
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Acts 2:4 (KJV)
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 2:14-21 (KJV)
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Are you an advocate for the truth and really want genuine revival for the people of God? Then don’t try to explain away the written word of God because you haven’t experienced something that is clearly written in the Word of God.
Here we go again with the assumptions.
In almost 8,000 posts on here I challenge you to find ONE post where I have claimed to never spoken in tongues. Just one.
While you are at it... find ONE where I said tongues were not for today. Just one. Should be easy, right?
This is what I am talking about. People are responding to me thinking I believe something that I have NEVER ONCE said I believe.
You're playing the man, not the ball.
Krispy
PS: ...and I certainly did not say it today in this conversation.
Thanks docseth1,
I am very grateful! If you have any references for the info whether in a book or online that would be helpful!
Lysa, its ok no worries =) thanks for your help as well!
In Christ
Evangel
Hey brother Krispy thanks for replying!
Have you received the baptism of the Holy Ghost since you believed like they did on the day of Pentecost?
I received the Holy Ghost, yes... on the very day I was born again. Just like you did. :-)
You can not be born again without being sealed with the Spirit, it's impossible.
What are you asking me exactly?
Krispy
You have studied the bible Krispy and it is obvious that being immersed or filled with the Holy Spirit is distinct from being born of the Spirit.
I repeat have you been immersed or filled with the Holy Spirit like they received it in Acts 2.4?
No, thats not really as obvious as you think. There is a school of thought that the reason God operated that way (giving the Holy Spirit after they were saved) was to make it obvious to the Apostles that gentiles were truly being saved.
Do I believe that God takes us to a new level subsequent to salvation? I think He takes us to new levels all the time.
But what you really want to ask me is if I have spoken in tongues.
Krispy
To be totally honest I am grieved by how christian folk can bludgeon one another just to prove a point. I do not see how you can even go into a prayer closet and have answered prayer... Brothers put this to bed. You have hijacked yet another thread... ya'll act like children. Seriously it is annoying I'm sure to more than just me.
Quote-
"There is a school of thought that the reason God operated that way"
-Quote
This is the problem other men "thinking" taking them away from clearly what is written. Pride always gets in the way.
I have heard men preach and say how much they believe the bible and the words of the apostles but don't want to experience what the apostles experienced.
Actually... it looks like we might be making some headway here finally. We finally got people to stop making judgements about each other...
Krispy
I don't know if it is a good thing or not but alot of the conversation here reminds me of my construction days working on a job site and trying to outdo eachother with witty comments. I have been laughing a little.
If it wasn't so serious a topic (the unity of the body)it would be funny. Let us all pursue truth with humility, and fear and trembling before a Holy God.
In Christ,
Tim
I have heard men preach and say how much they believe the bible and the words of the apostles but don't want to experience what the apostles experienced.
I for one will take all He decides to give me, but we must also keep in mind that it's up to HIM... Clearly Paul taught that HE gives the gifts according to HIS plan.
It's gets into that sticky topic of God's sovereignty that people hate so much.
Krispy
quote-
"I for one will take all He decides to give me"
-quote
me to Krispy! Pray for me that I want miss out on all that He has for me in Christ Jesus. You have my love and prayers for you and yours also brother!
To the original poster:
Here is an interesting book on the topic of "tongues:"
It was written by John Sherrill, an author who helped assist in the writing of many classic Christian books. He assisted David Wilkerson with THE CROSS AND THE SWITCHBLADE, Corrie ten Boom with THE HIDING PLACE and Brother Andrew with GOD'S SMUGGLER.
John Sherrill was quite skeptical when it came to the various topics and views of modern Pentecostalism. Thus, he takes an interesting approach by documenting the history of the "tongues" phenomenon from the time of Christ through the time he was conducting the research into this book. He interviews many Christian men (including David Wilkerson) as well.
The history that is contained within the book (along with the citations) may assist you in finding what you are looking for (pre-20th century anecdotes regarding "speaking in tongues").
Probably not, however, I am going by what you write and I know that you say you believe in the gifts and you say you believe this that and the other but your words speak a lot of doubt that you actually do believe in any of it.And if you knew anything about me or my history since becoming a Christian you would probably not say that to me.
I have no reason to attack you, in fact I feel that I am not attacking your person Stephen, again, I am only going by what your saying. I consider you my brother whether you believe in the gifts or don't, it makes no never mind to me, I have my own walk to consider.
Again, I am only going by what you say. If you don't want to be known, dear Lord that is your business brother. We are all coy and elusive, we all hide behind a fake name and none of us really know one another. But we do know one another through what we post.Yet, when someone (like you) thinks they have me figured out... it is then that I become ellusive and coy. I dont want to let you know me, I'd rather enjoy watching you think you do. It's entertaining.
But let me take a wild guess though. You started out and may have even gone forward to some degree believing in the baptism of the Holy Spirit or may even had experienced it but was burnt about some issues surrounding it. You saw the disorder or nonsensical side of Pentecostalism which turned you off to the whole idea so you went to searching the scriptures to see if any of what you were involved in had any merit. But since you were involved to some degree you hold to some of the things that some people reject. You believe in the gifts of the Spirit but you also cherish the idea of order and you don't want to get out of order and miss what God is doing. You believe that speaking in tongues is possibly for us today but you haven't really found anyone that fits the bible description therefore and so far those that speak in tongues today are in error or at least a vast majority are. Since you were brought back from the dead, you do believe in miracles and have prayed for healing and seen healing in yourself, your family and those around you. In summary, you do believe in the gifts and the power of God but since you don't see the true evidence today, your in doubt that any of it is real.
I hope my guess was generous and gracious Brother.
I don't hate you Stephen.
Praise Him!
And I'll be totally honest with you, tongues is NOT a sign of someone being more spiritual... and tongues does NOT make a person spiritual.
YAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYY
Finally something we both agree on. YIPPEEE!!
@ EvangelTam -
YOU STATED/ASKED: So can anybody answer the above question? My friend believe that it is only a recent phenomena that is unbiblical and says that tongues ceased after the early church...... If you could help me and link me to books/ websites that would be MOST helpful!
I RESPOND; There is a book that I have read that traces historical references to glossolalia (tongues) from the book of Acts to modern times. Very interesting read. I will post the information from Amazon below. The book is titled " The Glossolalia Phenomenon" by Wade Horton.
Begin Amazon Review -
This book is a must have for those of the Classical Pentecostal position (that speaking in tongues is the initial, physical evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit).
The book is edited by the late Wade Horton, former General Overseer of the Church of God (Cleveland, TN). The various authors reflect the traditions of the Church of God and offer different insights into speaking in tongues.
The book traces the history, practice, and biblical understanding of speaking in tongues. It also presents a sound doctrine of the person and work of the Holy Spirit.
End Review
Hope this is helpful Evangetam. There are many posts on this thread by folks claiming to have a solid Biblical basis for their positions but they are obviously only using 60-70 percent of the actual scriptures. Always let the entirety of God's council be a guide.... not just the 70 percent that agrees with our theology and then bypass the rest.
oops! we're supposed to use a fake name?
Again, I am only going by what you say. If you don't want to be known, dear Lord that is your business brother. We are all coy and elusive, we all hide behind a fake name and none of us really know one another. But we do know one another through what we post.
Part of the problem with posting and communicating soley thru a forum like this is that since you dont know me you can sometimes miss when I am being humorous... such as my comment about being ellusive and coy. That really was not a serious statement.
But let me take a wild guess though. You started out and may have even gone forward to some degree believing in the baptism of the Holy Spirit or may even had experienced it but was burnt about some issues surrounding it. You saw the disorder or nonsensical side of Pentecostalism which turned you off to the whole idea so you went to searching the scriptures to see if any of what you were involved in had any merit. But since you were involved to some degree you hold to some of the things that some people reject. You believe in the gifts of the Spirit but you also cherish the idea of order and you don't want to get out of order and miss what God is doing. You believe that speaking in tongues is possibly for us today but you haven't really found anyone that fits the bible description therefore and so far those that speak in tongues today are in error or at least a vast majority are. Since you were brought back from the dead, you do believe in miracles and have prayed for healing and seen healing in yourself, your family and those around you. In summary, you do believe in the gifts and the power of God but since you don't see the true evidence today, your in doubt that any of it is real.
I know I have an extensive list of posts, but if you had the time to go thru everything you would be able to put together my history.
Some of what you guessed is true, some is not. Actually I know many very mature believers in the Pentecostal side of things, and I am completely convinced they are saved and have the gift of tongues. Conversly I know just as many people who are not Pentecostals and have never spoken in tongues and are very mature in the Lord and put me to shame when it comes to living a life of holiness and service to the Lord.
Thus by observation, experience and what I see in the Bible... I am convinced that it has never been God's intention for every single believer to speak in tongues. Nor does God regard one believer over another based on tongues. Nor will God use one person over another based on tongues.
I know several missionary couples who have told of their experiences and/or observations of other missionaries where they were able to communicate with people of another language... never having learned the language. I have no problem believing that.
See, some people on here can not stand me because I believe in the Doctrines of Grace (which some call Calvinism). The thing about that theology that most people dont get is that it teaches that God is sovereign... in other words, He does what He wills. Everytime. And if wants the gospel to go to a people where there is no interpretor... He will be the interpretor. And He will do it thru someone who cant speak the language.
Why? Because He is all powerful. Other theologies limit God, Doctrines of Grace say that God is limitless.
And I will add to that, I believe some people are gifted according to God's will to pray in tongues. But when people start talking about "getting my prayer language"... there is not one single mention of special "prayer languages" in scripture. Thats a man made fantasy.
I dont say that to be mean, or out of hatred. I say that because thats a fact. It's truth.
Now, to validate that even further for you... I could tell you things about my walk with the Lord that would convince you that I am not against tongues and gifts. But I choose rather to just say what the Word says. I did that with what Paul said about "do all speak with tongues?".
See, brother... it's not about me. I could go on and on and tell you about my walk and my experiences. Not gonna do that. This is what God said. The giver of gifts. Tongues was never intended for all believers.
Email me sometime and we can talk more personally about my experiences.
Krispy
EvangelTam,
onemite posted this link:
The Truth About Speaking In Tongues - Zac Poonen
http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/articles.php?display=article07
I printed it out last night and read it at work; it is a marvelous study on the Holy Spirit, there were a couple points that I disagreed with him on (based on experience) but 99% of it was 'spot on'!!
Maybe you could start with your friend there because so much of history is not written and truth be known, he is using the 'time-line' as an excuse anyway. I have a die-hard baptist friend that came to love the Holy Spirit in me when we started praying together and she experienced Him first hand. (The main reason she won't seek after it is her husband's adversity to it).
That is why I say to pray together with him instead of these useless time-line discussions that most likely won't go anywhere, he'll just dig his heals in on another topic. Let him experience the supernatural power of God firsthand and he will not be able to gainsay nor resist Him!! (Because when we do that, it's up to God not us)
God bless you brother!!
Lisa
edit - double posted
Let me also throw this into the discussion-
In scripture there are clearly THREE DIFFERENT AND DISTINCT kinds, styles, purposes, or gifts of tongues. They are very different in application, purpose, and manifestation. It is all clearly in scripture but very, very , very rarely ever noticed as SO MUCH of what people hold to on this topic is based on preconceived ideas.
When you read about "tongues" in scripture you must determine which of the three kinds it is to actually understand what is being taught. If not you will come to the conclusion that scripture actually contradicts itself.
Of course scripture does not contradict itself.... but if all "tongues" were the same... as many believe... then it does contradict itself. Much of the misunderstanding is because most all people think there is only one type of "tongues" and thereby misapply an interpretation to a type of tongue that does not apply to it.
I know that will cause many to say, "What?!?!" However, it is all clearly in scripture... but not just sitting on the top. It requires some study, digging, and application. If due diligence is done then all the pieces of that puzzle snap together and the confusion over the subject evaporates.
Blessings!
Solomon... can you expound on that?
Krispy
I would agree with you on this however, I didn't look at the other posts until after I submitted that last post. When I come into an active thread I start from the post that I left and read from there and when something of interest arises I stop there and don't read anything more beyond that until after I've posted. Such was this case. When I went back to read after that post, I thought, "He is going to think that I surmised all that by what he posted". And I would have too, so no biggie. But to be honest, it seemed to flow and without the need to think.I know I have an extensive list of posts, but if you had the time to go thru everything you would be able to put together my history.
Okay you've just parted my hair the wrong way. LOLOLOL. I agree with you somewhat but not totally, and not so totally that I would break fellowship which in my opinion is childish to do so. I have often wondered about those things myself.Thus by observation, experience and what I see in the Bible... I am convinced that it has never been God's intention for every single believer to speak in tongues. Nor does God regard one believer over another based on tongues. Nor will God use one person over another based on tongues.
I have to know by revelation regarding this matter and all things must come by revelation anyway if we are to be enlightened on a matter.
I can go along with the idea that it was not God's intention that everyone speak in tongues and that God will use anyone that is willing or not who do not speak in tongues.
The hair splits when it comes into the evidence when one receives the Holy Spirit. For example, my Mother and Father received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit spoke in tongues but never spoke again because they didn't have the gift of tongues. In every instance that I have seen in the book of Acts where anyone receiving the Holy Ghost there was some sort of a manifestation of tongues or prophesying, save Paul, but he later confess of speaking more in tongues than anyone else.
My dilemma is to marry together the one who is justified by faith and the one who has been baptized in the Holy Spirit. For example, the thief on the cross. He was justified by faith but did not receive the holy Spirit.
As far as I see the word to be is that we are all saved by Grace through faith. (and thank God for this common ground that we all share) The hair splits further because I can't see how anyone can say they have the holy Ghost without having that initial evidence of speaking in tongues or prophesying. My prayer is to see beyond what I currently see with my natural eyes in the word and see with my spiritual eyes.
It's a touchy subject and I don't want to be the one to offend anyone with this.
Our family believes that too, God is Sovereign.See, some people on here can not stand me because I believe in the Doctrines of Grace (which some call Calvinism). The thing about that theology that most people dont get is that it teaches that God is sovereign... in other words, He does what He wills. Everytime. And if wants the gospel to go to a people where there is no interpretor... He will be the interpretor. And He will do it thru someone who cant speak the language.
I agree. We can throw in that same bag the words, "Plead the blood". I hate it when people say those words. Or they sing the song during service, "I'm just a sinner, saved by grace" and at the end of the service, "Ain't no sinner now, yeah, ain't no sinner now". Well which is it?"getting my prayer language"... there is not one single mention of special "prayer languages" in scripture. Thats a man made fantasy.
Approved... let me ask this, do you think that perhaps if your presupposition is that people speak in tongues when they are baptised in the Spirit that that ends up being what you look for? And if so perhaps if you dont see that evidencee then you assume they have not been baptised in the Spirit?
In other words, if what you look for is if someone has prayed in tongues... and someone has not, do you assume they havent been baptised in the Spirit?
Does my question make sense?
I know for some people speaking in tongues is synonomous with baptism in the Spirit.
Krispy
Did King David speak in tongues? I am not sure, but I do not remember reading anywhere that he did.
Mar 16:17 "And these signs will follow THOSE WHO BELIEVE: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
Repent of your idle chatter, Brothers\\Sisters, and maybe also from your unbelief - contradicting even the words of our Lord.
Again I say, Repent.
Joch
by jochbaptist on 2012/3/7 8:16:50
Mar 16:17 "And these signs will follow THOSE WHO BELIEVE: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
Repent of your idle chatter, Brothers\\Sisters, and maybe also from your unbelief - contradicting even the words of our Lord.
Again I say, Repent.
Joch
___________________
Its threads like these that make me just want to give up completely here. To imply or say that only those who speak in tongues have received baptism of the Holy Spirit is so hurtful. I spent months on my knees begging and pleading with GOD, tears streaming down my face until the early morning hours to receive this gift because people just like some here have done made me feel like less of a christian because I did not speak in tongues... why do we do this to one another, why do we say such things to bring heart ache and cause sorrow? Just breaks my heart to read some of the comments. You really have no idea how your words cut and make someone like me feel like a failure and their walk is somehow lacking.
mj
gators52, you cried out:
To be totally honest I am grieved by how christian folk can bludgeon one another just to prove a point. I do not see how you can even go into a prayer closet and have answered prayer... Brothers put this to bed. You have hijacked yet another thread... ya'll act like children. Seriously it is annoying I'm sure to more than just me.
i dont know who that was directed to, but you're not alone in what you wrote. i saw the heading to this thread, and knew, that it would turn into yet another cyber scrum, a TERRIBLE WITNESS.
its not edifying, nor is it a safe enviroment to post, to share, to open up and just be real, quit the religioustic posturing......i think, in these days, there are dear souls out there, alone, that just feel the need to tear at and devour one another, because one CAN do that on the internet, and get away with it. God have mercy on such, coz He is watching.
Mar 16:17 "And these signs will follow THOSE WHO BELIEVE: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
Joch... repent of wrenching verses out of context.
Read on, brother: verse 18 "they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
Are you a snake handler? If not... why?
Krispy
i dont know who that was directed to, but you're not alone in what you wrote. i saw the heading to this thread, and knew, that it would turn into yet another cyber scrum, a TERRIBLE WITNESS.
Actually we're getting somewhere here... this is a good conversation. Leave it be.
Once everyone stopped accusing everyone else of believing things they really dont believe we have actually found some common ground and getting somewhere.
Whenever there is a discussion where some are voicing points of view that a couple of people here dont like... they yell to shut it down.
Krispy
its your brother neil here, right after i posted to gators52, about what he wrote, i read your heart cry:
Its threads like these that make me just want to give up completely here. To imply or say that only those who speak in tongues have received baptism of the Holy Spirit is so hurtful. I spent months on my knees begging and pleading with GOD, tears streaming down my face until the early morning hours to receive this gift because people just like some here have done made me feel like less of a christian because I did not speak in tongues... why do we do this to one another, why do we say such things to bring heart ache and cause sorrow? Just breaks my heart to read some of the comments. You really have no idea how your words cut and make someone like me feel like a failure and their walk is somehow lacking.mj
MJ, beloved, i am SO SORRY, its all come to this, THIS is why i have begged Greg repeatedly, SHUT THE FORUM DOWN...its turned into a stench and a reproach, and if it stumbles just ONE of God's Blood bought children, its full of sin...i hope Greg sees this, or one of the moderators. SHUT THIS FORUM DOWN.
take heart though my sister, This Most Holy Faith is a Precious Thing, its Simple and full of Grace, and Peace and Love, and anybody that tells you otherwise....well, God the Holy Ghost will complete my sentence for me, in Jesus' love, neil
Neil... if you want the forum shut down then why are you here posting on it? Just leave if you feel that way.
Krispy
Its threads like these that make me just want to give up completely here. To imply or say that only those who speak in tongues have received baptism of the Holy Spirit is so hurtful. I spent months on my knees begging and pleading with GOD, tears streaming down my face until the early morning hours to receive this gift because people just like some here have done made me feel like less of a christian because I did not speak in tongues... why do we do this to one another, why do we say such things to bring heart ache and cause sorrow? Just breaks my heart to read some of the comments. You really have no idea how your words cut and make someone like me feel like a failure and their walk is somehow lacking.mj
MJ... thank you for posting this. I would like to hear from those who claim all who have the Holy Spirit will speak in tongues address what you just said.
Seriously... I'm not being sarcastic at all.
Krispy
Actually we're getting somewhere here... this is a good conversation. Leave it be.
Krispy
where you getting? stumbling folks? passing some idle time?
oh, i'll "leave it be".....keep it up, and one day, you'll call out, "Lord, Lord".....and i pray you never hear the rest of what Jesus says in that passage......
Read on, brother: verse 18 "they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”Are you a snake handler? If not... why?
Great answer. One group or the other will be silenced with a few cups of poison, the hard part will be finding any willing to drink it....
OJ
Neil... if you want the forum shut down then why are you here posting on it? Just leave if you feel that way.Krispy
oh Steven, i HAVE left....but hoping against hope, i come back to the 'fig tree', hoping for fruit...and there is none....should we give it another year?
nice witness.
nice witness
I agree, krispy's witness has been very good in this thread. Others, not so much.
But who cares what I say ;-$
OJ
The fact is that if you would read the conversation in context you would see that Approved and I did get sideways over a few things... but at this point common ground has been found, and we are actually have a good discussion.
I dont think the thread should be locked just because it's me who is in it, and you dont like my position.
It IS a good witness when Approved and I can bring this around and work thru some misunderstandings and begin to hash out some theological differences.
Thats what has happened here. It would be a shame to shut it down because you popped into the middle of something and decided that it should be shut down. We're making good ground here... and MJ brings up a very valid point and is represenative of a whole lot of believers... and her concerns need to be addressed by those who oppose what I've said here.
Krispy
One book that has been a blessing to me concerning the Holy Spirit and a 'Second Blessing' is Martyn Lloyd-Jones' book "Joy Unspeakable".
In the latter half of Bro. Lloyd-Jones' ministry he became convinced of the blessing, or baptism, of the Holy Spirit as different from the receiving of the Spirit at salvation and the great need of the modern Church.
It's a scholarly as well as a devotional teaching on the subject of the Holy Spirit.
Bro. MLJ was the last of the Calvinist Methodists. This was a belief-the Baptism of the Holy Spirit-he did not hold early on but came to in the course of his life. He did not believe that tongues is the 'initial physical evidence' or that there necessarily is the need for an initial physical evidence though he believes this may happen. However he did believe that it is a definite personally discernible event that may happen only once to a believer and it may happen a thousand times over the course of their Christian life. He also believed the gifts of the Spirit were for today.
I know this doesn't answer the original question. There are historical books that trace the operations of the gifts but this should never be used to confirm or deny the teaching of the Bible. Scripture is sufficient to deny or confirm a belief or practice in the Church.
i dont think you understood what i wrote, i wasnt talking about THIS thread, i'm talking about the forum, SHUT THE FORUM DOWN....not just a thread.
The sermons will be here to continue to edify.
this forum has turned into a terrible witness, thats truth.
Ahhh.... Husley, very well done! Martyn Lloyd-Jones is one of my favorites, and while I had already come to pretty much the same conclusions on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, he did articulate my position perfectly.
I had not mentioned this book yet, but was headed in that direction. It is a fantastic book (as is "Preachers and Preaching").
I just had not gotten around to declaring (for all to hear) that I do believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and I do believe that it is generally a separate experience from salvation.
There... I said it. However, like Martyn Lloyd-Jones I do not believe it is mandatorily always accompanied by tongues. I believe it can and does happen, but more often than not it doesnt.
There ya go folks, bookmark this post so next time no one has to waste time telling me that I do not believe in it.
Krispy
I totally agree with Neil! I used to refer many to Sermon Index but not any more. I just cannot stand it any more. It has become so polluted. This thread in particular. I am not a writer and cannot say what is really in my heart but I am so, so wounded. Where is the love of God in your writings? What a mockery this forum has become.
I would ask God to forgive them as they don't know what they are doing but, in reality, they know exactly what they are doing and as long as they have this platform they will continue to spit out their venom.
REPENT!!!!
Wayne
Yeah, that book is amazing. It's even a blessing for our brothers who are classic Pentecostals. I had come to the conclusion that tongues are not taught as the initial physical evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the Scriptures. I used to believe that and I can see why others do believe it.
I can see from the Scriptures as I understand them that the gifts are active and not only are still for today, but also very much needed.
There are many giants of the faith who are and were Pentecostal. Their lives continue to be a channel of God's blessing to me.
The biggest thing to remember, Husley, is that people will always read the same scriptures and for whatever reason draw different conclusions. (altho there are some things upon which we all must agree)
For instance, Martyn Lloyd-Jones was a huge influence on John MacArthur... but on this topic they are far apart. Why is that? It's a mystery.
Like I said on another thread about Calvinism... the fact is we can disagree on this and still be saved. Our salvation is not based on what we believe about tongues.
As long as a Pentecostal or Charismatic has been truly saved by God... we're brothers.
There is enough grace.
That is how Approved and I can misunderstand each other completely... hash it out... and come back around and find common ground.
Grace. God's grace.
Krispy
Amen Krispy,
Let every man be convinced of the Lord, and not of Jeremy Hulsey or any other brother or sister on SI.
We all at our best in this age only see in part and prophecy in part. Therefore we should offer an abundance of grace to other brothers and carefully weigh and consider our words knowing that we'll be judged by every one of them that proceed from our mouths.(Or in this case from our keyboards)*edit*
What an amazing gift from our Father that we can now minister grace to one another by our words even more so when we don't agree.
hi, speaking in tongues doesn't make me better or more holy than someone who does not;it does help me to be better than i was.one day i was confessing my many sins to the Lord and told Him that i was not worth shooting as a christian and that i did not much like most christians ,but i was a good sinner who needed special help. immediately i began to speak in tongues like a river having never been in a pentacostal or charismatic type church. i did not know what it was but i knew Who i was talking to and have been speaking in tongues for 47 years.i do think that the behavior of tongue talkers in a church situation is often unbiblical and an understandable reason for folks to be afraid of it.jimp
What an amazing gift from our Father that we can now minister grace to one another by out words even more so when we don't agree.
Amen... let me say that I recognize that some just dont like me. I'm ok with that because you dont know me. If you did you probably would not feel that way. SI is the only place in my life where I feel like some people see me as an enemy or someone mean. I actually find it kinda humorous... but you have to understand my personality and my sense of humor in order to get that.
But the fact is that while I do speak out strongly about what I believe... I do it because I love you people. Sometimes I goof up and play the man, and not the ball... but in those times I ask for grace and forgiveness.
For those who hate this forum and the conversations, I need to state that for the past 6 months to a year I have rarely been here, so I guess I dont see what you're seeing. I do have issues with the forum, but it's because I have seen some rather strange teachings enter in here. Thats why I havent been around much, among other reasons.
Anyway... GRACE... let's let GRACE reign supreme.
Krispy
Quote-
Read on, brother: verse 18 "they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
Are you a snake handler? If not... why?
End quote-
Jhn 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and [they] are life.
Pro 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes.
So I am a fool for quoting the rest of that passage in context and asking you a question about it?
Wow...
I love you too, brother.
It's a dangerous thing to use scripture in the way you did in that last post, my friend.
Matthew 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire."
Grace to you.
Krispy
Well Sister, your words were very much like mine experience. I felt very much less of a Christian when I was told that I didn't have the holy Ghost unless I spoke in tongues. I don't like it any more than you do and I hope I didn't say that in my post. If I did say it, I am saying it in the way like Krispy has been saying regards to his standing that he sees his position to be scriptural.Its threads like these that make me just want to give up completely here. To imply or say that only those who speak in tongues have received baptism of the Holy Spirit is so hurtful. I spent months on my knees begging and pleading with GOD, tears streaming down my face until the early morning hours to receive this gift because people just like some here have done made me feel like less of a christian because I did not speak in tongues... why do we do this to one another, why do we say such things to bring heart ache and cause sorrow? Just breaks my heart to read some of the comments. You really have no idea how your words cut and make someone like me feel like a failure and their walk is somehow lacking
I am trying to make sense of my scriptural standing as I come from a United Pentecostal background which I had no say when I was kid as to what Sunday School I was to attend and things were different in those days anyway, as I got older I left that organization willingly because I didn't agree with their hardline ways.
As for speaking in tongues, there has to be a happy medium and I tend to find out. Currently I am somewhat on the fence about the whole thing. And at the same time I don't want to say something is when it's not. Like you all, I want truth even if it means having to repent of error which is not a delightful path to take let me tell you, it's painful.
So don't be discouraged, we are just talking, at least I can say of Krispy and myself.
I had to read your question over several times to make sure I was understanding what your were asking.let me ask this, do you think that perhaps if your presupposition is that people speak in tongues when they are baptised in the Spirit that that ends up being what you look for? And if so perhaps if you dont see that evidencee then you assume they have not been baptised in the Spirit?
Let say that I met up with MaryJane in the mall and we sat down and had a coffee and talked about the LORD. In my mind, I am not sitting there thinking, "I wonder if she speaks in tongues". To be frank, I never think about if the person received the holy Spirit or not let alone speak in tongues. If MaryJane said to me that she has the holy Spirit as far as I would be concerned she has the holy Spirit, I wouldn't ask her if she spoke in tongues, I leave that up to the individual to want to add that to their testimony. I automatically assume they have spoken in tongues at some point. But it's not important to me if they did or not, it goes with the territory when someone says that they received the Holy Ghost. Do you see where I am coming from?
Now, if I was in a service where someone is laying hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit, I just expect them to speak in tongues. If they don't, I don't say they didn't receive Him.
Do you get what I mean? Let me use myself as an example. I was prayed over to receive the Holy Spirit and nothing happened. I didn't speak in tongues but in my mind I was expecting it to happen but it didn't happen. But that didn't stop me from praying to be filled. It was sometime later that I was filled with the Spirit and I did speak with other tongues. It was expected.
Personally, I don't judge (I try not to anyway) about who has received the holy Spirit and who hasn't. It's not my place. I have met Pentecostal and non Pentecostal people that have not spoken in tongues and are wonderful people and I have met people that have and they are no different than the world. Now don't get me wrong, I know many that do and are wonderful people of faith.
Hi All,
So thanks for all your help, I was able to find the info I needed thanks especially to ccchhhrrriiisss and Solomon101 for the book referrals!
Yea, I wasnt sure I was wording my question very clearly. Sorry about that. I talk with my hands a lot, it helps me verbalize, and I cant do that on here.
It's interesting that your back ground is what you saw in a Pentecostal church. That is what UP teaches, thats their doctrine, so naturally thats what everyone expected to see. And thats what you were conditioned for.
Others that did not grow up in that environment have a hard time with that.
And then there's me... your basic knot-head.
This is why we really have to be careful with our "experiences" because they are so tinted and tainted by the environment that conditioned us, know what I mean?
One thing you kept saying is concerning "having the Holy Spirit", as if some Christians dont have the Holy Spirit. Brother, thats an impossibility. I know this is probably just an issue of semantics, and you probably mean something else. I dont know. But every believer has the Holy Spirit. How can a believe even begin to live a life of holiness without the Holy Spirit? How can they learn scripture if they dont have the Holy Spirit to teach them as scripture says?
Now, I prefer the term I've heard called "Second Blessing".
I know there are accounts of believers in Acts who had not heard of the Holy Spirit and received the Holy Spirit when they heard. There seems to be a contradiction there that I dont quite understand. I know it's not a contradiction, I just dont know the answer. And I have never heard a convincing answer from any Pentecostals on this.
So here is where I am at with this, bro... I believe when God reaches down and saves a person He seals them with the Holy Spirit. Jesus does not come and live in their heart (He is on the thrown in Heaven), the Holy Spirit enters in. Thats the seal, the deposit if you will. The dowry.
Now, I am also convinced, as Martin Lloyd-Jones was that there is a second event subsequent from salvation. It is kind of like taking the relationship with God to a new level. A new level of surrender and intimacy with God.
SOMETIMES it is associated with tongues, and sometimes it is not. I know many people who have had this "second" experience with tongues, and many who have had this "second" experience without tongues.
I have witnessed the lives of both and I am convinced that God chooses to give some the gift of tongues and some He chooses not to... and all are by His will and not given based upon any of our own merit.
And I think my observations and experience coincide with scripture.
And that is how I have arrived at where I am at with this.
Brother, I like what you said about being more concerned about finding truth, even if it means repenting of our unbelief. Man, I am right there with you. This may surprise you, and some others, but I have done my share of repenting. I have had to seriously humble myself even here on this forum... a lot of people have forgotten about that, I guess. I haven't. I have also had to admit that I was wrong about some of my beliefs and understanding of the Bible.
A few years ago Reformed Theology was widely accepted on this forum... and I despised it. It was actually because of this forum and the loving brothers and sisters here that I began to seriously study it out and try to understand it, all the while planning to prove it wrong.
Fast forward to now... and most of those people are not active here anymore, and there is a new crowd of people that absolutely HATE Reformed Theology. And here I am... completely changed from my former stance on it! lol
God does have a sense of humor.
My point is we have to be willing to change when we discover we are wrong. I hope that I become more like that.
Anyway, so here we are... you now know more about me than you did a couple days ago. Wish you were closer, we could sit down over coffee and open our Bibles and talk scripture all day long. I would like that, brother. And I know for a fact both of us would walk away from that experience with completely different impressions of each other than we have this evening.
And your face would be sore from laughing so hard. That happens to people when they are around me for any length of time.
...I bet there are some people on this forum that find THAT hard to believe... lol (but it's true!)
Krispy
Oh boy, someone started a thread on this topic, what have we done? LOL
Exactly!I know there are accounts of believers in Acts who had not heard of the Holy Spirit and received the Holy Spirit when they heard. There seems to be a contradiction there that I dont quite understand. I know it's not a contradiction, I just dont know the answer. And I have never heard a convincing answer from any Pentecostals on this.
I know that there is no contradiction either, the contradiction is in me not being able to understand whats going on. There is an answer for everything that is in the word of God.
Sometimes in these cases, the Lord may never open our understanding to give us an answer even if we sought Him for it. What He will want us to do instead is just to love His people.
Why?
Well, our motive might be wrong. Maybe I (I'll say 'I' because you may not) want to know so I can put people into boxes (God forbid) but you know what I mean. And I hate doing that. The purpose of knowing I suppose is so that we have no doubt about what we are talking about. Our lack of knowledge on this becomes a free for all so to speak of all kinds of error to creep in. Every time we say, "I don't know", problems enter in. If we do know then we can enter in and stamp on it or strengthen it. Paul was able to do that, we are not because we lack in so many different ways. I suppose when Paul said, "when I depart ravenous wolves will enter in and will not spare the flock". I think that means that when he is taken out of the way, there will not be many to stand in the gap and make up the hedge. Guards will be let down. Another guy that has his fathers wife will have no trouble staying in the Church because there will be no one that will stand up against the storm. Kind of like today, eh? The church has taken a beating since those days and still has. And from time to time God had raised up those that would stand in the gap and restore truth once again and bring in light.
I think my motive is, I want to know. And I don't like this nagging doubt that lingers when I read those passages.
Thankyou krispy and approved for sticking it out. It has really helped me in my research into the topic. I would love to be a fly on the wall if you two ever got together.
I for one krispy, have found myself laughing at some of your comments. My son was in the back ground wondering what was wrong with me.
I am encouraged by the humility and perserverence to seek out the truth.
Pray for the rest of us who are on this same journey.
This forum has assured me at times that I am not insane.
God bless you all
Tim
i agree with krisspy regarding the seconed blessing sometimes contains toungs other times it doesnt
brothers i understand the scripture regarding acts that you speak of ,,,,,is simply for me that is, evedence ,of the seconed work of grace ,which is the baptisim of the holy spirit ,,,at that point of there walk in the faith of the lord jesus christ ,they had not yet recieved it ,,
i never new what the holy spirit was when i repented and believed ,neither did i no what the baptisim in the spirit was ,,but i had recieved the indweling of the holy spirit when i believed , but never new ,what was realy hapening to me ,,,,,,if paul came to my house months after i believed in jesus and was born again ,,i would have said the same as those deciples ,,,i havent even herd of the holy spirit
Hi everyone,
I have been away for a while and have really enjoyed the posting of Krispy & Approved. You guys hung in there and have really become a blessing on this thread.
Dear MJ,
I felt I needed to reply to your post with kindness and I hope you take it that way. From reading it I gathered you’ve let others or someone make you feel like your experience with God doesn’t measure up to having the Holy Spirit because of the tongues issue if I understand you right. There are things that I don’t necessarily agree with others on but I sometimes just let it go on by because I can’t say for sure about it because I don’t know their heart or where they are in their walk with God. Sometimes it is just plain ignorance and I just let it pass on by and sometimes I may reply and sometimes I’m ignorant about something myself.
I would like to say this to you because I have heard you testify before and I believe that you have a definite relationship with God. Don’t let anybody make you feel inferior or less of a Christian because you know that you know you have the Holy Spirit because you have the Spirit of Christ by the new birth.
Just because every Christian has not received the infilling of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance does not mean they have not been baptized with a measure of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the only one I have read about that had the Holy Spirit without measure. The apostles were able to do things by the power of the Holy Spirit that few have been able to do since. I knew a preacher at one time that had an infilling of the Holy Spirit and didn’t speak in tongues but he had power and even signs followed his ministry. I don’t believe we should be seeking tongues but only the filling of the Holy Spirit and let Him manifest himself in how He desires. I don’t believe we need to beg and plead or cry because it is a gift. I was saved and filled with the Spirit several years and knew that I was before I was filled one night and found myself speaking in an unknown tongue. The main experience of the baptism of the Holy Spirit that Jesus said the disciples was to receive was power from on high but after receiving, one must stay full in order for the experience to continue with a person.
Also every true Christian has been baptized into Christ and therefore has received the Holy Spirit but being filled is a command to every Christian. It’s really just more of the same.
Finally MJ, just enjoy the relationship you have with the Lord and desire more of His presence and don’t let anyone cause you to doubt what God has done in your life because they say they have experienced something that you haven’t. I knew I was filled with the Spirit long before I ever spoke in tongues and I admit I am more of a classical Pentecostal and still believe that the original Apostles all spoke in tongues when they were filled with the Holy Spirit. I also know that has not always been the case since then. I may elaborate more later, but God bless you in your experience with God.
Blessings to all!
On the topic of the "Second Blessing", Derek Prince presented an interesting explanation in his book "The Holy Spirit in You". John 7:37-39 tells of Jesus promising "rivers of living waters" but ends with: "Up until that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified".
He makes a distinction between Resurrection and Glorification in that Jesus was glorified after his ascension to the right hand of the Father. He suggests a similar pattern for the presence of the Holy Spirit in the believer:-
Easter Sunday ==> Pentecost Sunday
The Resurrected Christ ==> The Glorified Christ
The Inbreathed Spirit ==> The Outpoured Spirit
In John 20:22 Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit on the disciples telling them to "Receive". I think it is safe to say that the Holy Spirit was dwelling in the disciples at this point. This occurred after his Resurrection and prior to his Ascension.
Later however, in Acts Chapter 1 Jesus told them to *wait* for the coming "Baptism in the Holy Ghost" and that the "Holy Ghost will come upon you". This suggests that the disciples, already having the Inbreathed Spirit, should wait for a second, more intense manifestation of the Holy Ghost.
PassingThru
I really enjoyed this conversation/discussion...
You see a thing that happens in communication with each. We think somebody is saying something, and without questioning we are going to attack/chasen that, to find out that the person wasn't really saying what we thought.
I want to say thanks to everybody that took time to give there thoughts about this topic and for the verses put on here.
Even though I didn't submit any reply yet, I have read you're comments and they encouraged me. Especially some comments of Krispy and Approved, but also of others. It is a joy that different persons from different dominations/backgrounds can talk together and discuss 'hard' topics and after the discussion there hards are bound more together then ever! I hope that that is what happend here :-)
QUOTE Evidence of Genuine Belivers Speaking in Tongues before 1900? (HELP!)\tReply
After The Apostles & Before 1900:
1. Justin Martyr (AD 100-165) wrote "The prophetical gift remains with us even to the present time" (Dialogue with Trypho, Volume 1.) In his work called "The Second Apology of Justin," he speaks of the ability of Christians in his day to cast out demons and administer healing.
2. Irenaeus (AD 125-200) In his "Against Heresies," Volume 1, he describes Christians as those who cast out devils, have visions, prophecy, lay hands on the sick, and raise the Dead. He also testified that believers were still speaking with tongues.
3. Tertullian (AD 160-240) In “A Treatise On The Soul,” Tertullian wrote, “For seeing that we acknowledge the spiritual charismata, or gifts, we too have merited the attainment of the prophetic gift.” In his “Against Marcion, Tertullian revealed his acquaintance with speaking with tongues, and viewed the gifts of the Spirit as a sign of Orthodoxy.
4. Origen (AD 185-284) In his work “Agains Celsus,” Origen spoke of miracles being performed. He defends speaking with tongues. He links praying in the Spirit with praying in tongues. Origen was the first early church father to express concern over a diminishing of spiritual gifts in the church. However, he saw this being a result of a lack of holiness and not the will of God.
5. The Monastic Movement (AD 300 - ) Anthnasius wrote about the life of Anthony (the father of Monasticism). He wrote of Anthony as being a man who was filled with the supernatural.
6 (The Middle Ages) A significant Jealousy arose between the church at Rome and the common people. Around AD 1000 the Roman church declared that speaking in tongues among the common people were to be considered evidence of demon possession. However, among the church hierarchy it could be considered evidence of sainthood.
7. The Waldenses (1176 – beyond the 16th century) This group sought to find the biblical pattern for a New Testament church. Divine healings as well as the gifts of the Spirit were part of their ministry
8. Martin Luther – Stanley Frodsham’s book entitled “With Signs Following” quotes a work in German by Souer who described Luther as one who spoke with tongues and was endowed with the gifts of the Spirit. It has also been shown that the Anabaptists of the 16th century had a great interest in the gifts of the Spirit as also did the Morovians.
9. The Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee) This Pentecostal movement began in 1896. During a revival in Cherokee County, North Carolina. It is said that many spoke with tongues during this revival. END OF QUOTE
docseth
You have not given the source of this quotation and I would dispute that it does not show what you claim.
It is wrongly assumed by Pentecostals, that one either believes in tongues PLUS the other gifts or one believes that they ALL ceased and thereby one is called a cessationist and believes that after the New Testament was put together, God communicates with man through them and through them alone.
Thus is not so, there are many believers who believe in the second blessing and continuance of the gifts like prophecy and healing, but not tongues, as they were to `come to an end due to an outside agency` according to the Greek understanding of cease, whereas, prophecy and knowledge would come to the end of being `in part` or rather, when perfection comes, they would no longer be experienced now and again in that understanding of partial, but would now be known in full and continuously after a man is filled with the Spirit. The Greek used for this `cessation` is a different word.
That which is perfect is not the Bible and is not Christ as the word used is to signify a thing not a person. The thing is perfection or holiness and Paul is showing us the results of it - once I saw like a child but now I have become adult or reached the fullness, I see through the mirror clearly.
To get back to the `evidence` you supply, most of the points only show that indeed the writers accepted the continuation of the gifts, but it is being wrongly assumed that they included tongues. Any quotes given are about the other gifts and do not mention tongues.
The so called evidence is not actually quoting anyone on this point, it is only claiming that they said it. I dont know about you but I like to have claims backed by references through honest scholarship and not the manipulation seen here.
The fact is that if babbling continued, it was on the fringes of the church due to lack of certifiable evidence to the contrary, and the greatest theologians missionaries and preachers throughout church history, who have been used greatly, and as KK rightly said, more than anyone here, did not teach tongues and did not even bother to mention much about it, being not part of the established church, because it is a modern thing and part of the downfall of the church which we are witnessing.
krautfrau...
Thank you for posting that. Obviously I do not agree with your conclusions at the end necessarily, but you are spot on when it comes to what Pentecostals assume. It's kind of an "all or nothing" mentality.
because it is a modern thing and part of the downfall of the church which we are witnessing.
I would say the ABUSE of tongues is part of the downfall. I would also say that tongues that we see today is abused far more than it is used appropriately. The main reason for the downfall of the church today is that a) no one knows their Bible, b) the church (and the pulpit) is filled mainly with unregenerate lost people.
The church acts like the world because it's filled with unsaved people pretending to be Christians.
Anyway... you mentioned sources.
As for the sources, a lot things get attributed to the church fathers, and others down thru history. When you study some of them out you find that they were either grossly taken out of context or they never said it at all.
I suspect (but I dont know for sure) that that list of "evidence" came from the internet... a well spring of accurate information, as we all know.
A while ago I posted a thread on here about untrue myths and legends that are often perpetuated from the pulpit. As I looked into that topic I was amazed at the amount of things we hear on a regular basis from the pulpits of America that are complete and utter fabrications. Preachers tell stories or give these examples of things... never checking sources.
Point I'm trying to make is dont just accept everything you hear. Go and find these quotes, read them in context. Find out if what they were saying (if they said it at all) even had anything to do with tongues. Do your homework.
Be a Berean.
We should never take anything out of context to make it fit our argument. Thats not what scripture is for. We saw an example of that earlier in this thread... it's pathetic when it happens.
Anyway, thanks for posting that, krautfrau. Some excellent points there.
Krispy
I grew up in the Pentecostal circle and I have to say my conclusions are the same as Krispy on this one. Not everyone will speak in Tongues, its just not an evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
What I find in scripture is that the fruit of the Spirit are the only viable litmus test of "Filled with the Spirit" not the gifts. Teaching is a gift of the Spirit and yet we have today many teachers who are also atheist, because they are skilled teachers does this make them "filled"? This applies to all the other gifts.
For me I draw my conclusion from 1 Corinthians 12 and 13 Paul is giving us a list of the gifts in 12 and finally ends 12 with verse 31 "BUT eagerly desire the greater gifts. and now I will show you the most excellent way"(this is where people get tripped up by chapter and verse divisions) because Paul continues in Chapter 13 saying how useless the spiritual gifts are IF they are not movitated by the greater gifts Faith, Hope, and Love.
I remember as a little Pentecostal boy praying and begging the Lord Jesus to baptise me in the Holy Spirit so I could speak in tongues and in reality that was how I was told I knew I was baptised what when this happened. Now I pray from a humble heart Lord fill me with Faith, Hope, and Love.
You see, if we filled with Christ's Love we are filled with His Spirit (THE Spirit of Love) and if we are filled with The Spirit of Love we are Filled with the Father of that Love and thus one with the Father, by grace through faith in Christ Jesus.
I don't know how many "spirit-filled" individuals I have seen pass a homeless man or someone in need and they spout the line "I just didn't feel lead to help them" IF Christ is in YOU and the Holy Spirit is guiding you by george you are going to be serving like Christ served, and HE is the Servant of All. The real question I ask myself now is Am I movitivated by Love,not my love but HIS? What does His Love look like lived out?
I have seen far to many individuals among the Pentecostal movement use speaking in tongues as badges of honor for themselves than to Praise the Lord for giving Good gifts. I have been to events where they kept track of attendance, Salvations, water baptisms, and "Holy Spirit" Baptistm i.e. how many people could they get to speak in tongues.
Seems rather silly now looking back on it. If you have the gift of Speaking in Tongues Good! Use it to Glorify the Father! Amen! Enjoy the gift. :) And I'll enjoy the gifts that God has blessed me with (mostly music :)
mguldner... that was beautiful. Much more articulate than me.
I am as articulate as a bull in a glass vase museum.
Krispy
lol thank you brother, This topic is one I am pretty passionate about because I grew up believing I was baptised in the Holy Spirit (Baptised by the Holy Spirit at the age of 7, or so deemed because I could mimic everyone else) But this was pressed on me at 7 I lived a rotten life and was a hellbound sinner but because I was "baptised in the Holy Spirit" I thought I was saved. I only came to Christ in 2009, I mean truly came to Christ. I asked the Lord about Speaking and Tongues and Evidence of Holy Spirit baptism, His answer was so simple it made me laugh a little bit. He said, "If I give you the gift of Speaking In Tongues, you are going to know it, it's not going to be the fake stuff you did the past 13 years." So now I am free from condemnation of not speaking in tongues because I know God has blessed me with different gifts.
Imagine a body made of only tongues, seems silly with that picture painted.
I have never encouraged anyone to seek for tongues but only to be filled with the Spirit.
I must say that I would not be confident in Acts 2.4 if it had not of happened to me and I understand why other people feel the way they do because of the abuse.
I can tell you that I can’t explain it or tell you why it happened when it did but I had been seriously praying to the Lord for around ten days not knowing how long at the time and one late night as I was kneeling in prayer the Holy Spirit came upon me and I began to do things before I realized it. I am telling you that I was moving under the power of the Spirit and speaking fluently in another language and realized it after it already started and heard myself speaking. I can understand why others have a hard time about this because I would be the same way if it had not of happened to me.
Speaking in tongues is not the only thing I did that night and was not the most important thing that happened. I cannot explain to you how I felt I mean it was the most awesome feeling I have ever experienced in my life. I felt the most love and power that didn’t seem to diminish at all for a whole month. I have learned a lot through trails since then. I could tell you things that some would find hard to believe. It was through this experience, even though even now with some sadness of heart I must say that I’m not walking in it like I was then, that I have come to realize that no matter how bad the days ahead get that if God were to fill you with His Spirit like he did those in the days of the apostles you will be able to endure anything because you will have so much power. I believe God carried away Phillip literally in the Spirit. God can protect you and cause you to endure things that would be impossible otherwise. I don’t believe Stephen felt any lasting pain when he was being stone because He was so full of the Holy Spirit and seeing Jesus standing on the right hand of God.
All I’m saying is this, we are not seeing and doing what those believers where seeing and doing the beginning days of the church. Somehow I believe God is going to have a people in these last days that will truly experience Acts all over again and He will confirm His Word with signs and wonders following before that great and dreadful day of the Lord.
Blessings to all!
Krispy wrote
"I talk with my hands a lot, it helps me verbalize, and I cant do that on here."
That did make me laugh, though you may be using using Dragon or something to type.
I would like to apologize for my post of yesterday. I allowed some of the things posted to cause me to look at past hurts instead of keeping my eyes on JESUS. I did not mean to cause any strife with my post and I am sorry if I did. This topic is one that has haunted me for a very long time. I don't know really what to think, its very confusing. I have had some tell me to keep seeking and asking for GOD to give me this gift as a sign/proof and yet the still small voice I hear in my heart whispers that JESUS is all that I need and HE is enough for me. I should have avoided this thread when I read the subject topic but I allowed doubt to cause me to read it anyway...its my own fault so I just wanted to apologize. Thank you to those who responded to me with such kindness,
God bless
mj
MJ, dont apologize! Your post helped to bring out some things and demonstrate to some the frustration that certain teachings can cause in true believers. I'm glad you posted and expressed what you did. It helps to hammer home some points there were being made.
You need to listen to the still small voice. The point was made that love is the most important aspect of the Spirit filled life, and we need to be concerned about demonstrating the fruits of the Spirit (love, joy, peace... etc). If those are our fruits then it is only because we have the Holy Spirit in our lives, because on our own we cant even attempt to live like that.
If you demonstrate the Fruits of the Spirit then you ARE a Spirit filled believer.
Any gift from God is important because it is from God. However in Paul's teaching on tongues he pointed out it's importance as a gift, but he de-emphasized it at the same time, and encouraged us to seek the greater gifts instead.
Did the conversation get a little heated? Yes. Not as heated as some want to make it out to be... but here is what I have figured out about "heat". Sometimes you need heat to get to the pure thing. Here's two examples:
Metals... they are heated in a crucible. I've seen this done first hand with aluminum. As it is in it's molten state the impurities rise to the top and on the surface it appears kinda mucky. It's called "dross". At that point the dross is skimmed off and thrown away... and you are then left with pure aluminum.
Chili... when chili goes into the crock pot it is really soupy, at least the way my wife makes it. You turn the heat up and let it simmer. Sometimes for 12 or 14 hours. This allows the seasoning to really permeate the ingredients, and the excess liquids evaporate. What you are left with is pure chili, nice and thick.
(I just made myself hungry...!)
Thats how conversations here go sometimes. Even tho it may get heated, sometimes it's necessary in order for the truth and the purity to boil down.
Thats what happened here. We ignored those who called for it to be shut down, we pressed thru... and it ended up beautiful thing.
And your post helped it, it didnt hinder it.
Krispy
Dear MJ,
I’m definitely not an articulate writer and when writing I leave a lot out but in my heart I wouldn’t want to see anyone discouraged. I have never liked some of the things I have seen through the years in some Pentecostal/charismatic churches.
If I could give you a little advice it would be to encourage yourself in the Lord and don’t let others into your life that don’t have love and compassion that you know have a true love and walk with God. Anything (gifts) that we have truly the Lord had to give it to us and was not given to make us more special than others but to be a blessing to others. I would also encourage you to walk in the Spirit with praise and thanksgiving to God for all He’s done in your life and all that He is and all that he has in store for those who love Him. He loves you and will finish the work He started in you- only keep your confidence in Him. Just think who knows what all God has for you and will do in you while you just love and desire Him for Himself. We should desire him above all the gifts and trust Him to do what He wants in our life. We are His and bought with a price so let’s glorify Him.
With much Love…rbanks
“ I mean truly came to Christ. I asked the Lord about Speaking and Tongues and Evidence of Holy Spirit baptism, His answer was so simple it made me laugh a little bit. He said, "If I give you the gift of Speaking In Tongues, you are going to know it, it's not going to be the fake stuff you did the past 13 years." So now I am free from condemnation of not speaking in tongues”
-quote mguldner
Brother I can’t help but comment a little here from your post because this is a profound statement that I have also come to a conclusion that many have been led to say things so that they think they have received something they didn’t really receive and others felt condemnation because they didn’t fit in unless they spoke in tongues and we should never be forced to do anything.
I agree when God truly fills you to overflowing to operate in a gift from Him you will know something extraordinary has happened without a doubt. I have come to believe that God is sovereign and gives to whoever He wills and the price of surrender must also be a part of the processing work in us because He who works in us also works through us and all for His glory!
Blessings to all!
MJ, Don't apologize. Actually I am glad that you opened up to us. Pain like that should not be hidden in the heart like that. You know Sister, this thread could have been started by the Lord for this very purpose to get you to open up about this so that you can look at it and come to terms with and stop feeling the insecurities that people place on you as not being a child of God because you haven't spoken in tongues. God wanted you to come to grips with your salvation so that there is no doubt whatsoever. So when someone tells you that you don't have the holy Ghost because you don't speak in tongues, you can say, "I certainly do speak in tongues". (They don't have to know that your referring to English/Spanish/French). And if they ask for a demonstration, you can say, "it's against my conviction to put God on display." I always have fun with religious minded people, no wonder they can't stand to be around me. It shuts them up though! hehe
I was told that if I didn't speak in tongues I wasn't saved. Can you imagine, I wasn't even told that if I didn't speak in tongues I didn't have the holy Spirit, but I wasn't even told that, I was told I wasn't saved. Looking back on the confusion I wished that I just sought God to be filled and whatever God wanted to do with me after that was His business.
I left the United Pentecostal Church for one reason and one reason alone, they were offending people, offending believers who have embraced the cross but did not speak in tongues.
No one can go wrong if we seek His face. No one can go wrong if we seek to be filled. And how He fills each one is different. Each experience is different. When I read of Jimp's testimony, I just love it. God is so soveriegn in the way He does things.
For me, I was so indoctrinated by others that all I sought was tongues and I was being driven by fear. Before this I had no idea what all this was about. But because I had a besetting sin at the time and then someone told me that I wasn't saved because I didn't speak in tongues, I was being set up for fear. Of course I was going to cry, of course I was going to doubt my salvation. Before I loved walking with the Lord afterward it was like I was dragging my feet. Before I would jump for joy to be with Him, after I was hiding behind a tree like Adam because I thought God was mad at me because I didn't speak in tongues. ugh!
When I was filled with the Spirit and yes I did speak in tongues, but was it ever of no significance. I expected rolling thunder like the older saints speak and it was barely nothing. I was sorely disappointed. I was asked to testify the next day of my experience and I told them all that I wasn't filled with the Spirit. At this time I wasn't in the UPC denomination, this was a backwards church filled with halfwits, debt ridden, lefthanders and rejects that other churches didn't want and I loved it. So these people were so generous in their love for me that the Pastor took me aside and told me of his experience that was akin to mine and he encouraged me to just pray in whatever God had given me.
But just to let you know Mary Jane, I felt no different than when I first got saved. But the fear of not being saved was gone because I had found a group of people that I loved and they loved me and that worry left me and I was taken back to the time before I had this awful fear and resumed from there. But this time I was speaking in some sort of tongues. I remember sitting on the edge of my bed after that night and spoke in tongues and I thought, this sounded so foolish that this can't be it. By faith I went with the little bit I had received over time it developed as if growing up so to speak.
Let me stop here for a moment. I hope I am not discouraging you. I am merely sharing my experiencing with this and showing you that I had fears of not being saved because I was told a lie. God loves you and He has you right where you are at. He sees your fears, your worries, your pain and the like, and He said that He would never leave us nor forsake us. Time and time again you have prayed and seen the hand of God working on your behalf.
John 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
This is encouraging verse to me. Because God doesn't hear sinners (repenting ones yes). It tells me that God hears us because we are no longer sinners. Oh yes, we will sin, but sinning and a sin are two different positions. And thankfully we are not sinners, therefore God heareth us. Walk in the truth that you have been given today and God will add to you as you seek His face as He sees fit.
Praise Him!
I wished that this were true of me. All my life I believed the above statement but man oh man God had other plans. With me it was in small things. He'd give me one piece of Lego and say, "Okay start building". My answer, "with what? I have only one little piece."I agree when God truly fills you to overflowing to operate in a gift from Him you will know something extraordinary has happened without a doubt.
I am standing there in doubt of what He had given me. I hadn't learnt at this stage that He just wanted me to lay it down so He could add another and another and so on. Adding meant waiting, adding meant God sending someone to speak to me, adding meant waiting and more waiting, adding meant field work and so on.
I wish that it could come "without a doubt". The Lord always reminds me with, "Do not despise the day of small things". Trust me, that is a hard thing coming from a mind that likes pomp and circumstance, fanfare, and roller coasters.
You know what I find puzzling?!
I find it puzzling that more people seemed to be concerned
with tongues than they are with the Gospel! Go look at how
many people responded and view the topic: “Do you know
what the Gospel is”. There are more posting here debating
on the issue of tongues than there are on the Gospel.
Shame! We should be talking about it and finding ways on
how to explain it clearly and effectively to a dead world
and a dying “church”!
Is not the Gospel the POWER OF GOD?!! If that be the case,
should we not be giving emphasis on the Gospel than
arguing tongues?
It's Christ's Gospel, defend it!
welcome robertsj,
I'm sorry you feel about this thread the way you do but haven't you noticed the majority of the last several posts.
No one is arguing over tongues really! The gospel is the power of God and those Apostles spoke in tongues!
Blessings to you!
Approved,
I'm blessed by your testimony and glad to see you came out of the UPC with a good relationship with the Lord and also glad to see He has healed you from so much abuse.
Want to comment some more later about something you mentioned on one of my posts.
Blessings to you!
I find it puzzling that more people seemed to be concerned with tongues than they are with the Gospel! Go look at how many people responded and view the topic: “Do you know what the Gospel is”. There are more posting here debating on the issue of tongues than there are on the Gospel. Shame! We should be talking about it and finding ways on how to explain it clearly and effectively to a dead world and a dying “church”!
Welcome!
This thread has actually been a breath of fresh air! I praise God for it because common ground was found between brothers, a sister poured her heart out, others swooped in to encourage her... this IS the gospel, my friend.
Perhaps there were not too many people talking on the "gospel" thread because...
a) most probably saw the title and thought "of course I know what the gospel is"... and moved on. I know thats true for me. I come here to explore controversial issues that I have questions within myself about. I dont have time to read threads about things that I already know about, ya know? If the thread was about something else then whoever started it should consider a different title.
b) Most of the people who come here are more serious minded believers. Not many followers of Joel Osteen or Benny Hinn come here. People come to discuss theology, not the latest Christian fads. Therefore... there wont be much discussion or debating on a thread called "Do you know what the gospel is" because most people here already know what it is. What is there to discuss or debate? We're all pretty much in agreement on the gospel with the exception of a few people on the fringes.
But again, this thread has been awesome and I have really been blessed by. Praise God!
...finding ways on how to explain it clearly and effectively to a dead world and a dying “church”!
Acutally... this aspect of it is discussed here all the time.
Krispy
Sir/Ma’am
I absolutely believe that the Apostles spoke in tongues
(“glossa”) and I do not dispute the gifting. I am simply
noticing that people will argue, discuss, debate, etc.
and want to focus on this topic than on the “Do you
know what the Gospel is” topic.
Thank you Krispy and greetings, I stand reproved,rebuked
*exorted*.
I wasnt rebuking you, brother. Just explaining why you see what you're seeing... from my point of view.
Krispy
Krispy,
I have really enjoyed your posts also and the realization that we agree more than we previously thought. I hope you the best in your pursuit of God to the fullness of your inheritance in Christ Jesus.
Blessings…rbanks
Ditto!
Krispy
There a few people on here that I would have liked to comment to privately without having to post on here (lest it continue to hijack this thread past the 11 pages).
So, my reason for even posting in this thread is to encourage everyone who doesn’t have an email posted on sermonindex to go ahead and get a secondary email from the following places (below). It would help us all tremendously if there were emails posted, in case you fear giving too much information, you don’t have to be; I do not use my full name on the one that I have posted, if I return an email from you, it will show Lisa R.
God bless you all,
Lisa
My profile now includes my email address
Hi Lysa, My email is available for the next couple of days for anyone that wishes to have it. I do like my privacy but I don't mind hearing from the SI Family.
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