Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

Benjamin Netanyahu's tough talk in a speech to thousands of American Jewish supporters was his strongest suggestion yet that he wouldn't hesitate to launch a unilateral pre-emptive attack on Iran. I watched his whole speech, and sat there in awe, if America could only have a leader like him, what an awesome man!

At the risk of some thinking whatever, I recently saw him on the news and after seeing and hearing him speak about Israel and the way he looked and the manner in which He spake brought a sense of emotion in me that made tears well up in my eyes with admiration of love and respect for Him and the nation of Israel. Praying for them to really know the true messiah and Lord Jesus Christ.

Blessings...rbanks

Hi Jim,

To be fair to the gentiles they have killed a lot of other people in the name of "jesus" too. Lots of arabs have been slaughtered ("god" bless america) in the name of "jesus" by our country. The pope and his satanic armies killed both jew and arab along with gentile believers that would not bow their knee to that antichrist.

While I agree with the notion that much wrong has been done "in the name of Jesus" (incorrectly claiming as much), your assessment about the Crusades is part of the popular revisionist approach to the topic. The crusades were less about marching under the pope's direction into Jerusalem (and surrounding area) as it was a response to Muslim conquests over the previous two to three centuries.

At that point, Muslims had marched through Europe and conquered certain areas -- reaching as far as the Iberian peninsula (Portugal and Spain). The Crusades were a response to those military conquests under a once-united Roman Empire. It is incorrect to suggest that it was nothing more than a "religious" response. It was a military response by nations that were partially occupied by Muslims at a time when some of those Muslim groups were considering even further expansion of territory.

While the Crusades were a dark time in history and a corrupt anti-christ pope was a central instigator (or overseer) of certain aspects of them, the motivation was derived out of a territorial dispute at a time when the entire European continent was under the spell of the corrupt church in Rome. However, that corrupt pope was fighting against another corrupt army that was fighting and expanding in the name of religious and physical world domination.

When it comes to americas killing, it is supported by the christian right - the same group that promotes nation state worship. I stay far away from that. Jesus said lay down your lives for your enemies. He did not say take up arms for nation state isreal, let alone some nation state america. Is it because I believe Christians are to serve King Jesus and love our enemies that I am at odds with everyone here?

Brother Jim, I know that the idea of the "christian right" is foreign to you, but the world gladly lumps you together with them. If you were to tell individuals what you believe, they would place you in the same category as the rest of them. The only difference to many of them is that you might not stand in the way to what it is that they want to accomplish (if you don't believe that it is acceptable for believers to vote).

At the same time, I know individuals who would certainly fit within your definition of the "Christian right." They participate in elections, policy decisions and even public office. They support one candidate over another. The loudly oppose certain issues (like abortion, homosexual marriage or taxpayer funded smut) that are pushed as "liberties" by certain politicians. However, I think that it is unwise to assert that they "promote nation state worship."

It is one thing to pray for your nation...and even participate in a manner that you hope will make this nation better for such a time as this. This isn't "worship" of a nation. After all, I "participate" in a job, provide for my family, pay my taxes and obey the laws of the land. At the same time, I don't feel that this is necessarily "unspiritual."

There is also a difference in regard to your citizenship. In the New Testament, slaves were instructed to obey their masters (Colossians 3:22). Now, we could easily argue that they can't have "two masters." However, it is obvious that they have one spiritual master and one in the flesh of this life.

I know that there is a "non-resistance" segment who claim to oppose all forms of resistance (other than, perhaps, rhetorical). However, if someone were to attack my wife...or your wife...or a child...or an elderly person...I would do whatever necessary (in ascending order of escalation) in order to stop it. I wouldn't just pray or preach to the woman who is being attacked or her attacker. If the situation merited immediate physical response, I think that I would feel no problem stepping forward and resisting a physical assailant. Hopefully, this would never happen. And, of course, I would likely cry out to God during the entire ordeal. However, I would gladly lay down my life for my friends.

There are believers who serve King Jesus, love our enemies yet still feel that they are at liberty (even as believers) to share their voice in elections, policy decisions or even public service.

You are completely entitled to whatever opinion that you may have on such issues. However, please understand that there are many believers who are totally in love with the Lord and seek above all to please Him in all things, yet still feel the liberty to participate in things that you might not feel is expedient or even proper.

I have wrestled with whether or not to vote at times -- but this was often because of what individuals here at SermonIndex have said. I prayed long and hard about what I read...yet still felt that liberty to vote (or even voice my views). And, of course, I have only done so after much prayer, study and contemplation.

As always, may the Lord guide us in His ways. May His thoughts be our thoughts in all of this.

Jimdied2sin,

I’ve notice you have jumped in on a couple of threads with strong language after I have posted taking something I have wrote out of context of mine original intent never asking me to clarify anything just accusing me. I don’t know you and you definitely don’t know me but I just thought I would comment about it but not in condemnation.

Your writings are strong and straight forward concerning the wrongs and idolatries over many people posts that you seem to see. You seem to see a red flag of idolatry in so many people’s posts and it is obvious that you hate idolatry as well as I and many others on here do also but you seem to go overboard about everything.

I just hope you would stop and take inventory because if we are not careful focusing so much on idolatry and ranting and raving about it all the time can become an idol that would kill our love for the Lord and His people and damage our effectiveness as His witness. Sometimes we should just back off and refocus praying for God to fill us a fresh with the Holy Spirit and ask for wisdom on how to lead and teach others the spiritual things of God without so much harshness and judgmental words toward everyone that has posted something that seems to raise a red flag that you feel you must address.

There you go I said it and don’t worry I know you don’t know me but I’m not above being corrected and if you think I’m wrong then please enlighten me. I pray for you and hope you will pray for me also.

Blessings to you!

Hi Jim,

You wont even discuss the issue but only write subtle lies to discredit what I have said. If you want to discuss the re-occuring theme of patriotic idolatry and its stronghold in american evangelical circles please let me know.

Maybe you could further explain what you mean by "patriotic idolatry." It is easy to say such things...and for many people to agree due to the ambiguous nature of what you say. After all, everyone opposes "idolatry." However, you haven't actually defined what you mean by the term.

Thanks!

Wow! never thought I would have started a riot, anyway I am sticking to my guns on this, I still think he is a great leader. Remember we all came from dirt, so we all have a little dirt on us.

I agree Brothertom, man Jim just all over this like a school of piranha's. I personally feel there is a gentler/more diplomatic way to express ourselves. As I said we all have a little dirt, but maybe some don't, and can judge accordingly.

I apologize for personally posting to someone else in trying to correct them in what I have perceived to be where they are wrong. I hope I have learned a lesson because it only creates more opposition. I will refrain in the future by bringing points of views without personally trying to correct someone by using their name as posting directly to them.

Brothertom, I do pray for the peace of Israel and also that many will come to know Jesus as the true messiah. My desire for the prime minister is truly for His salvation and I also believe he does care for the nation of Israel even though He is in darkness concerning the true plan of the God of Israel. I also understand as I know you do the true spiritual Israel of God. Blessings…rbanks

martyr said, "I understand BB Netanyaho has a morning Bible study in his home. May he find Jesus as his messiah."

I second that. I am encouraged to read of his studies.

white stone

Hi Brother Jim,

I did read through your posts in that other thread, but you still haven't appeared to fully define what it is that you mean. At what point do you think that people are engaging in "patriotic idolatry?" What are the "symptoms" that concern you. Is there a revealing display of actions or some other means to measure what you feel to be the limits of involvement?

I did read where you mentioned the pledge of allegiance. However, I know many individuals who place God before country (even the armed forces mention "God and country" in writing). I would hardly try to lump them together with "idolaters" simply for holding a degree of respect, honor or allegiance to the country of their temporary citizenship.

When I work for a company with my "secular" job, I strive to do my best. I work as if I were doing it for the Lord. I participate in certain decision-making processes for that company. I try to make that company succeed on many different levels...especially since I believe that God placed me there. Consequently, the Lord uses the company as a tool to provide for the needs of my family through an income.

In a much bigger scale, God placed us in the countries of our temporary dwelling. I personally find no problem with participating in the various decision making processes -- even in elected offices -- in the attempt to make that country "of the people, by the people, for the people" better. It isn't just about "voting." It can even include participation...or petitioning "unjust judges."

Personally, I see no Scriptural prohibition with a believer who serves in public positions -- including judges, police officers, military men, Congressmen or even the presidency. I believe that it is possible to maintain your relationship with God even while operating in such a position of public service or authority.

Now, I understand that it is possible to make your country your idol. However, a person can make ANYTHING an idol -- including "ministry."

I have known ministers who confided that they had turned a "call" into a "career." They were worried about paychecks and compensation from "full-time ministry" being enough to pay for a house, car, other bills and even retirement.

Still, I am having a difficult time understanding your definition of what you call "patriotic idolatry."

Yes, there may be individuals who overly indulge with country and may even unwittingly place it before God. However, most of the individuals who are slurred (it is now used as a "slur" by some) as being in the "religious right" are merely sincere believers who actively participate in voicing their opinions about ISSUES of righteousness and unrighteousness.

This is why I wanted to know how you would define or even "measure" what you call patriotic idolatry. I am concerned that you might lump some good believers who participate in trying to make this country a better place (even on a natural or "righteousness v. unrighteousness" level) together with real idolaters.

I feel that I can work in a "secular job" as unto the Lord and still maintain my faith. Similarly, I think that it is possible for believers to participate in various aspects of government and decision making while maintaining an intimate relationship with the Lord. However, I would be interested in understanding what you feel to be the limits of Christian involvement to the point that they meander into "patriotic idolatry."

By the way, I pray that you know that I am sincere in this question and discussion. I am not trying to be contentious about it whatsoever.

May the Lord bless you too, brother Jim.

I've read Jim's posts as well and think that I know where he's coming from with his "patriotic idolatry" and "nation worship" statements and agree with him in some regard.  We sometimes blend Christendom with nationalism to the point we believe they are one and the same.  And while  Romans 13:1-7 makes it clear that we are to be subject to governmental authority and thus be "good patriots" we are Christians first and foremost.  Some want to associate a particular political party with Christianity and believe if we can simply have them in the majority then we will be back on the path to becoming a righteous nation when in reality there is little substantive change regardless of which party is the majority and both have had their chances in recent years.  I do believe this should awaken us to the reality that should we pray first and vote second.   

German Christians struggled with patriotism versus Christian conviction during WWII.   The people were forced to make the choice of maintaining an allegiance to their Mother Germany or the God of the Bible.   Study the life of Dietrich Bonhoeffer.  He wrestled with the situation greatly and realizing his country was on the road to ruin began a crusade to save Germany from the clutches of evil and was ultimately martyred for the cause of Christ.

While America hasn't regressed into Nazism, the struggle of the believer to separate our patriotism from our Christian faith still exists.  Does our allegiance to Christ mean that we forfeit our love for the country in which God has placed us?  Absolutely not!  And this, my dear brother Jim, is where we differ.  Bonhoeffer grieved over what was happening to his homeland greatly.  He loved Germany just like the prophets of old loved the nation of Israel as God also loves her.  Have you not read Jeremiah or where Daniel bowed towards Jerusalem three times a day?  Or, how our Lord cried over Jerusalem not recognizing the hour of her visitation?  Israel was, and as the Bible prophesies, is a real, honest to goodness country and the alliances formed by countries who oppose her are exactly as the Bible states as well  (see Ezekiel 38).  Do not fall in the trap of over-spiritualizing, as some have, the nature of who Israel is and know this - she is a genuine piece of real estate and is as much a country as any upon the face of the earth and remains the apple of God's eye.  Praise be to God! 

And as much as some have tried to encourage me to leave the United States for another country that has "more favor with God" I am as American as one will find and thank God every day for it.  But, I also know that only God can save our country - no politician can do it, no political system can do it, and no form of government can do it.  Only God can and when we reach the full realization of that fact it should drive each of us to our knees to acknowledge the awesome responsibility that we have as Christians to petition God for our nation.  This country will only be as godly and righteous as we Christians enable it to be.  We can blame no one else.  We are called to be light in a dark place and when we refuse to shine forth that light what else can we expect.  Please read II Chronicles 7:14 again closely.   "If MY PEOPLE, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land".  What will happen should we refuse to fulfill the call of this passage?  I think we see the results of that for ourselves and don't think that God won't hold us accountable.  And Jim, we can replace "land" with "nation" and not harm the text one iota.  I don't believe it to be "nation worship" rather our godly responsibility to the land/nation in which God has placed us.