The Story of "the Good Homosexual"

The following story represents real possibilities in our circles today:

One day Becky a troubled 16-year-old teen began making plans to end her life. For her, it hurt too much to live any longer. Her despair had become overwhelming. Oh, she had been a good student and even president of the Students Council. But she had been plagued with depression for some time. She never talked about it with anyone, but hid it under an impressive façade.

Her parents weren’t particularly approachable, she felt. She had always felt distanced from them. Her dad was a busy pastor of a thriving church. Becky just assumed he would freak out if she told him. He would remind her that suicide is a sin and she should be thankful for her good Christian background. Becky’s mom herself had suffered depression, but she kept it at bay by busying herself with running the food bank. On Sundays Becky sang in the worship team. The worship leader did notice a dulling in her countenance, but assumed that livelier praise songs would help her. So he made certain to include some.

At school Ms Jens, her history teacher had been noticing changes in her for the last while. That day she approached Becky privately after class and commented about her observations – the sad expression, withdrawal from others, and a loss of interest in her studies. Ms Jens was a lesbian feminist with a particular interest in women’s concerns. She invited Becky to come talk with her anytime she wanted. That’s when Becky blurted her suicide plans. Ms Jens listened carefully and then asked a few questions to discern how serious Becky was. Ms Jens expressed her intent to arrange for Becky to see a youth counselor right away; and then she drove her to the mental health center. Ms Jens made sure Becky was provided for and the parents were notified. As she was leaving, Ms Jens said to Becky, “Anytime you want to chat, please feel welcome. Here is my phone number.”

You know where this story is going, don’t you? It leads to a provocative question, not unlike the question Jesus asked a religious expert: Who was a neighbor to Becky?

How would you answer that question?

Diane

The title threw me off. I thought it was going to be some sort of dig at in quote "good homosexuals." Consequently, I kept waiting for the teacher to do something bad to the child. By the time Jesus's question came around, I didn't feel the answer I had been led to was "the good homosexual" was a neighbor to Becky.

Side note, Becky's parents seemed a bit plastic. For the sake of the parable, I suppose it was necessary, but the mother's reaction in particular seemed too far-fetched.

Dianne I understand somewhat of what you are saying of how the Jews felt concerning the Samaritans but I would have a hard time using an illustration of this sort because of how God feels about the sin of homosexuality.

Also because of how many of the leaders in society today are classifying homosexuality with racism and the treating of women. It is not a sin to be of another race or to be a woman but it is a sin to be a practicing homosexual. Many in society today are listing these three in the same category saying we can’t discriminate against their lifestyles even saying that we hate homosexual people by saying homosexuality is a sin but that is far from the truth. True Christians love them and want to see them free from sin but it is not wrong to be a woman if that is how God created you. It is not wrong to be of any particular race if that is how you were born. Just some thoughts…rbanks

Diane,
Many people do good deeds....there are BUNCHES of men IN the church-system today who are at the coal-face of the work, but in private have addictions to pornography and other sexual vices that they hide from society....including some pastors. This is sin.....however it looks. Jesus said to the woman caught in adultery, "Go and SIN no more." He didn't say "Go and do good deeds." The issue is SIN.
IF Becky is really taken in by the kindness of this person, don't you think her relationship with this person could well develop into Becky becoming caught up in the very same sin? Satan will use ANY candy he can, like a fisherman experimenting with different baits to catch his fish.... Is a prostitute any less a sinner because she has a kind heart? Is a thief less of a thief because he loves his wife and takes her flowers?
What counts is our relationship with God. IF we love God, and love our neighbor, our desire will be to ALWAYS do what pleases Him, and glorifies Him, and to bless our neighbor - and never cause them harm. We can bless our neighbor by being kind as this person was, but at the same time HARMING others by involving them in a sexual perversion that God hates and will bring about their destruction.
I feel sad that this girl has parents who have issues in THEIR lives that are being white-washed. A pastor who does not have time to be the father his children need is hiding himself from the needs of his own flesh (See Isaiah 58:6-14) Her mother hides from her own problems by covering them instead of bringing them to the light and dealing with them (Phil.4:6-7) A mature Christian who trusts in the LORD with ALL of their heart, and lives continually in His presence has a problem that they are not allowing God to help them with if they suffer from "depression". There is no room in Jesus for depression. The JOY of the LORD is our strength.
Mental health?....and they will prescribe mind-altering drugs? Becky needs Jesus. She needs a REVELATION of Jesus!....then all her depression and cares will fade away!
Turn your eyes upon Jesus;
Look full in His wonderful face!
And the things of this world will grow strangely dim
In the light of His glory and grace.

He IS the answer! He said, "Whom the Son of God sets free is free indeed." We ALL need a revelation of Jesus! Personally. We ALL need to see Him in ALL of His glory, die to self and our self-centered introversion, live for Jesus and the needs of others. This is the prayer of Saint Francis of Assisi......

"Lord, make me an instrument of Your peace;
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt,faith;
where there is darkness, light;
where there is despair, hope,
and where there is sadness, joy.

Divine Master, grant that I may not so
much seek to be consoled as to console,
to be understood as to understand,
to be loved as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life."

If our cup is full of self, there is no room for Jesus.
If our cup is full of Jesus, there is no room for self.

No doubt the title here sounds suspiciously like the subtitle in your bible: “the Parable of the Good Samaritan” in Luke 10. But remember, that subtitle is not inspired text. The word “Samaritan” has now become synonymous with “good” - charitableness – as in “Samaritan’s Purse”. Someone (I forget who) noted that this arrangement dampens our sense of the immediate impact that label “Samaritan” had on Jesus’ listener when he used it. This is a point we can’t overlook. To the Jews in Jesus day, Samaritans represented the vilest sinners around, and Jesus’ listeners would never have considered them a reasonable illustration for anything good. It may be worth noting that Scripture does not refrain from using sinners to convict worse sinners – including the people of God who viewed themselves as quite righteous.

My title is indeed misleading - as perhaps is the parable’s title in our bibles. Jesus’ parable was not intended to be a commentary on Samaritans’ righteousness – but a means of helping Jesus’ immediate listener see something he had not seen before about himself.

A question we might ask: How well do God’s people today notice those suffering “in the ditch”, even among their own - such as the teen example I used. Not very well! Becky’s story is representational of a real epidemic today. And today, it is indeed the people of the world who are providing treatment for them - including for those among “our own”. And for that we can be grateful. Yet, is this not also painful? Imagine the Jew listening to Jesus talk about a fallen victim among his own people receiving care by an outsider – a sinner - when the best of his own people failed to rise to the challenge.

When Jesus asked the lawyer ‘Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell…” the law expert couldn’t even use the “S” word. Rather than respond, “the Samaritan”, he said, “The one who had mercy on him.” I too could have avoided the “H” word - but let’s admit, there are those even in this population who stop for a fallen victim, and who love their “neighbor”.

Diane

No doubt the title here sounds suspiciously like the subtitle in your bible: “the Parable of the Good Samaritan” in Luke 10. But remember, that subtitle is not inspired text. The word “Samaritan” has now become synonymous with “good” - charitableness – as in “Samaritan’s Purse”. Someone (I forget who) noted that this arrangement dampens our sense of the immediate impact that label “Samaritan” had on Jesus’ listener when he used it. This is a point we can’t overlook. To the Jews in Jesus day, Samaritans represented the vilest sinners around, and Jesus’ listeners would never have considered them a reasonable illustration for anything good. It may be worth noting that Scripture does not refrain from using sinners to convict worse sinners – including the people of God who viewed themselves as quite righteous.

Brother I already told you that it is hurting to extend the parable of Jesus. Jesus did not intend to use this parable on a open sinner and it is fact. If so he would have used tax collectors or prostitutes as example in his parable who were considered worst sinners in those time. One cannot be considered sinner because he was born in Samaria nor he practiced the worship of Samaritans. And Samaritans did not worship anything wrong which I have already showed based on the answer of Jesus in John 6. Jesus will never advertise a sinful life style.

If you cannot understand what I am saying then at least treat me as a brother with weak faith and stop using this parable. This is what I would have done if any believer said that he is hurt by my post (Hurt and not Godly Sorrow). Usage of a teaching of Jesus to show something that Jesus did not intended is wrong according to this weak brother. And my faith is getting disturbed because I see this as a blasphemy against the name of Jesus.

I don’t find the story with ANY similarity or parallel to the parable of the Good Samaritan. In this story, the girl’s need was not obvious at all to her Christian friends and family. She kept it well hidden. If her friends and family had the slightest clue, they would have rushed to her rescue. In the parable of the Good Samaritan, the robbed man’s need was VERY obvious. The priest and Levite simply chose to ignore it just like many busy religious Christians ignore the billions who are dying without having ever heard the gospel while pouring time and money into fleeting vanities of earth.

Another glaring difference is that homosexuals are a group of a particular type of sin … not an ethnic group. A person cannot remain a homosexual and become good. A person could be a Samaritan with all kinds of evil in his family history, but could get converted and be made good by Christ’s righteousness manifesting itself in him.

I believe that a more appropriate modern similarity would be something like: “The good Gypsy”. Gypsies are ethnic groups who supposedly have generations of theft, deceit and evil but with such a reputation, if one were to do a kind deed for a suffering person, it would (according to the reputation) be astounding.

To me, this little story, and the suggestion of such a subtitle attempts to make acceptable a particular brand of sin (homosexuality) which is not an ethnic group (nor a genetic group, by the way), but a group of people united by that particular kind of sin who need deliverance just like any other sinner does.

How about some other suggestions: “The good alcoholic” … “the good drug addict” … “The good child molester” … “the good rapist” … “the good hired assassin” (Mexico is full of them ... it is a way of life for them) … “the good thief and robber” … or just invent a story where the thieves and robbers feel bad about what they did and return to help the poor fellow that they just robbed.
“Samaritan” is on the same level as “Jew” … it is an ethnic group.

“Homosexual” is on the same level as “thief and robber” it is a type of sin which can’t be made better by any good deed.

It's intriguing how readers draw different aspects from the same story. I include a response by a middle-aged Christian woman who focuses on the plight of the pastor’s wife:
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"We seem to have pat answers and really don't go down into each other's pain.... to really listen to each other. Instead we give quick fixes. And again, it's the "sinner" who has come to the rescue!!

"The pastor's wife I can relate to!! When we have our own issues, it's hard to help someone else, isn't it. She really hasn't dealt with her depression. We get busy instead of dealing with issues.....either because we don't want to, or the church is not equipped to help. Maybe it is a sense of shame on the part of the pastor's wife. Or she just hasn't opened herself up to the Lord for healing. Or maybe she thinks he can't help!!"
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roadsign,

This subject is very objectionable. I agree with Sree and Jesus-is-God.

It is very dangerous to play the game you are playing. You are toying with God's word and I find that just plain ugly.

white stone

I'm sure Diane is not promoting/condoning homosexuality any more than Jesus was promoting the religion of the Samaritans. The point of her story and Jesus' parable are the same: compassion.

The impact and controversy of a Samaritan are lost on us. Jews had a saying in that day that they thanked God that they were not born a dog or a Samaritan...etc.

Jesus also warned of straining a nat and swallowing a camel.

Brothers in light of Christ's words that we* will be held accountable for EVERYTHING that proceeds out of our* mouths please be merciful and if you can't agree at least try to understand what someone is trying to say.

*Edit

I find that just plain ugly

I appreciate how all of you see this ugliness of sinful life choices. For those who don’t, this story would convey the wrong message. Even still, it is only useful if it spurs us toward maturity. After all, Jesus told the lawyer: “Go and do likewise.” Likewise, it is our duty to come beside those fallen, those who have been robbed (emotionally, spiritually, etc) and those who have been left uncovered in their sin. And these people are all around us. There are so many. They may be we ourselves. If we can’t see it, it might be, as Carter Conlon says, that we have become dulled. It is possible that our attention to theological matters has dulled us to real human experience.

For most of us here homosexuality would measure high on the seriousness- of-sin scale. But wherever you put that notch on your scale, you would need to mark a higher notch for another sin: that is the failure of God’s people to love others as he calls us. If that sin doesn’t register high on our scale then we need an awakening, don’t we? Otherwise we will wound each other and not even know it. And frankly, that is happening. I include myself in this. I need to grow in love.

Regarding the story, personally, I find myself most burdened for the pastor. Maybe that’s not very virtuous of me, but that’s the way it is. Maybe it’s because I am a parent too, and a dedicated Christian. (Remember, this story represents countless real situations.) I imagine this pastor receiving that phone call about his daughter. What thoughts must go through his mind? What shock. What shame. What’s he going to tell his church? Or would he want to keep it hushed? How is he going to handle the guilt? Of course he contributed to the tragedy through his own neglect. But he is also a victim of a world that is so trapped in sin – a world, and even a church that cannot love its own. It’s not all his fault; or his wife’s. It’s not even an issue of blame. It’s really about turning to the Lord for mercy– and then becoming “wounded healers” for others.

My main concern with posting this story was for those who may come here, who are presently enduring intense grief related to suicide or attempted suicide of a family member. The thought of possibly aggravating the pain troubles me. I trust that they would receive mercy.

While the homosexual in the story may have been disturbing, I hope that we will together be far more burdened over our own shortcomings, and also the very real tragedy of the emotional suffering cause by sin's trap in our fallen society. May God empower us to grasp and know his love – that we may give that cup of water to the one in our path who is thirsty.

Diane

Her parents weren’t particularly approachable, she felt. She had always felt distanced from them. Her dad was a busy pastor of a thriving church.

This is a problem right here. What good is it if you save the world but lose your family? What kind of testimony is it if your church is "thriving" but your daughter is not? The church was evidently "thriving" because the Pastor was "busy" putting all of his energies and time into her.

Becky just assumed he would freak out if she told him. He would remind her that suicide is a sin and she should be thankful for her good Christian background.

Yeah, that would not be a good testimony if the Pastor's child was contemplating suicide. Is that why he would freak out? Because it would reflect on him? That is very selfish and self-centered.

I don't know if this story is true or not, but regardless, this shows absolutely no understanding of the spirtual realm, not to mention his daughter. And it is very prideful and smug (be thankful for her good Christian background). What is good about it? This father's attitude is a big part of why Becky has problems and yet he does not see it. As if being a Pastor's daughter means that you automatically are supposed to have a wonderful life.

Becky’s mom herself had suffered depression, but she kept it at bay by busying herself with running the food bank.

Well here we go. Things are coming a bit clearer now. The mother herself has depression. So both the mother and daughter are fighting depression. The mother is able to keep it at bay but the depression is close to overcoming the daughter. This is a demonic spirit that is bringing in suicide, now. Someone has abdicated their headship in the home.

On Sundays Becky sang in the worship team. The worship leader did notice a dulling in her countenance, but assumed that livelier praise songs would help her. So he made certain to include some.

Everyone is supposed to always be upbeat because afterall we are Christians!! There seems to be very little understanding and appreciation for the spiritual battle that people find themselves in. Not only does the Pastor have superficial understanding but also his staff. So, why is this church thriving? What is the definition of thriving one would wonder?

At school Ms Jens, her history teacher had been noticing changes in her for the last while. That day she approached Becky privately after class and commented about her observations – the sad expression, withdrawal from others, and a loss of interest in her studies. Ms Jens was a lesbian feminist with a particular interest in women’s concerns. She invited Becky to come talk with her anytime she wanted. That’s when Becky blurted her suicide plans.

It is sad that she could not talk to her parents, but this is often the case when parents project performance based relationship. But the poor mother has her own deep issues and who knows if she has not contemplated suicide, too.

Ms Jens listened carefully and then asked a few questions to discern how serious Becky was.

This lady listened! Then got a clue and began to probe a bit deeper to see "how serious Becky" is.

Ms Jens expressed her intent to arrange for Becky to see a youth counselor right away; and then she drove her to the mental health center. Ms Jens made sure Becky was provided for and the parents were notified. As she was leaving, Ms Jens said to Becky, “Anytime you want to chat, please feel welcome. Here is my phone number.”

Does anyone expect Ms Jens to share the Gospel with Becky? Of course not! Ms Jens did what she knew to do. At least Becky might live now and not commit suicide. The parents will find out and maybe the Pastor/Father will have a "come to Jesus" moment, get delivered from whatever idols are keeping him away from his wife and daughter and then real restoration will come to that family. Something drastic needs to happen!

You know where this story is going, don’t you? It leads to a provocative question, not unlike the question Jesus asked a religious expert: Who was a neighbor to Becky?

How would you answer that question?

I don't have a problem with this scenario because it plays out like this many times, every day.

Obviously, the only neighbor to Becky is the one that showed interest and concern to her. She spilled her guts to Ms Jens and when you think about it, she opened herself up to Ms Jens the very first time that Ms Jens showed interest. So, what would Becky have done if her parents showed interest and concern? If they were more approachable and less intimidating. Yes, less intimidating because Becky was afraid to confide in them. There are many ways you can intimidate your children.

Many of us know that this type of story is especially indicative of sons and daughters of professional clergy and parents that project performance oriented relationship. There are many books and testimonies about this particular subject on the market.

What does that tell us as a Church? Can we look at ourselves in the mirror and face ourselves or is everything "wonderful".

Thanks for bringing this to the forefront, Diane.

Pilgrim

"Angels of Light" is a term given to those whose objective is to deceive.

Ms Jens objective was to save Becky from herself.

God is not bound by our dogmas and will utilize a Rahab or a Ms Jens and possibly even you or I, if we have mercy and compassion.

Pilgrim

Old Joe said "Ms Jens was a neighbour to Becky. Like the Samaritan who didn't preach the gospel to the man in the ditch, but gave the best he could for temporal relief, so Ms Jens gave the best she knew to give as well. It did not save Becky eternally, but it could be used to keep her alive until that day would come. Then maybe she could lead her own parents to salvation."

Thank you, very much, for bringing light and your insight to this discussion.

WS

I'm reminded of this Good Samaritan story - c.f. post by ccchhhrrriiisss:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13551&forum=35&7

We do need to be careful that we don’t ditch the intent of Jesus’ parable, and likewise my story here. Do you think the law expert who heard Jesus’ parable went off to evaluate it with his buddy - saying something like this:

“Can you believe what Jesus told me to do! Jesus told me to be like a Samaritan! Horrors! I’m supposed to take beat-up people to an inn! Can you believe it! What - with the condition of inns these days! Why - they are dens of iniquity! That’s were prostitutes hang out. And do you know what? Inns are run by drunk innkeepers! I remember 35 years ago stopping in an inn and I saw one for myself. …

Meanwhile he and his buddy didn’t even notice that as they chatted they walked right past 7 beat up men in the ditch.

Diane

Here’s some questions to discuss:

Why did Jesus give the parable of the “Good Samaritan”? What was his aim?

Why did he choose the question: “Which of these three was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

How does it apply to us?

Diane

This is not about psychology. This is about someone caring enough to stop and talk to someone and then do what they could to interrupt their appointment with death (suicide).

Who will say that Ms Jens was not doing God's will in distracting this girl from suicide? Who has such knowledge?

Pilgrim

This is not about psychology. This is about someone caring enough to stop and talk to someone and then do what they could to interrupt their appointment with death (suicide).

Today most of us will never pass by a person dying in the ditch beaten by a robber. Phew!... But wait a minute! We do pass by people who fell into robbers – like Becky. She was robbed of truth. She was lied to. Oh she heard “the gospel” every Sunday. But it was not real in practice. And now she needs help – immediately. Her church can’t provide it. In fact, in such a context, it is also quite possible that they view psychological care givers with deep suspicion and faulty stereotyping - as Samaritans –– those worldly people who will surely destine your child straight to hell. What is likely truer is that these “Samaritans” are the very ones who can see beneath the façade – and THAT is more likely the reason they are viewed with suspicion. Yet inner truth is a preliminary requirement for repentance – turning to God.

Let me tell you about two teen girls who fell into the hands of a dreadful emotional disorder: anorexia. They are students of mine, so I know them. I draw on these examples because I think it may clear up an issue that often surfaces regarding the efficacy of ‘secular’ care faculties. I will call these girls Anna and Bella. Both of them were treated in the same government-run treatment center for anorexics. But they did not come out of it the same.

Anna’s parents know how to be a neighbor for their children. They are both believers. Mind you, they were devastated and broken through this, and realized they needed to change too. The father, immediately after admitting his daughter to the hospital, called on his church to pray. And this is not your idea church! It is rather spiritually anorexic itself. Yet it was a caring community for the family. But more significantly, the family was involved in the care. Mom stayed by Anna’s side all those weeks in hospital while grandma cared for the other children. The Dad learned all he could on the condition and treatment. Anna made remarkable recovery, far above the average. She says that it was the love of her parents that gave her the will to change.

Bella didn’t come out of it so well. She is still high risk. There are of course many factors, but I would say that she did not have the same support network.

All that to say: All our institutions – religious or secular are beset by frailties and the effects of sin. What makes the difference is having those who are able to be “neighbors” to the fallen.

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PS For any here who are struggling with a family member fallen by some psychological/behavioral condition, I say: Receiving help from secular people does not mean you lack faith. But you have a role too. Here is an opportunity to be a neighbor. Perhaps you are a parent of a teen who has come to view you as the despised “Samaritan”. Yet the Samaritan in Jesus’ parable stayed involved. Through your involvement - your prayers and your humble willingness to grow and change and cooperate in the care as best as you can, you can be instrumental in breaking down the barriers. Do not give up! God’s love, like water, flows to the lowest levels. God can reach you and touch you right where you are! And may he bless you by sending caring "neighbors" your way.

Why would I have a problem with someone not agreeing with James Fowler? Afterall, he is just a man. I don't agree with everything either. Is there any man that is 100% right? I have not found one yet.

roadsign's story IS just a story, and real or not, like all stories (Jesus' parables) it seems to draw out one's thoughts.

Again, to me, this story is not about taking someone's child to the mental hospital but rather showing enough concern about someone to want to do something.

I think you have probably said some things you did not want to say and have taken a hard-fast position and wish you could soften your stance now. What prevents you from doing that, only you know.

These stories do illustrate real problems in the "church" today and that is also the main point that I get.

Pilgrim

Roadsign wrote:But tragically she is the one who falls under its spell – although everyone living in it is just as diseased. They have come to function in such a way that they insulate each other from truth about themselves. This condition is very real today, and very serious! I can’t underscore that enough! It was real in Jesus day. He called a façade-living person a hypocrite - a word his audience understood to mean “actor”. Let’s admit, our world functions this way. Collectively we are actors on a stage, only we don’t see it as mere “acting’. This is who we are – we think. Just listen to our common speech – and see how little of it touches on the level of inner truth, or is aimed to nourish one another. This is not God’s way for us!

_______________

Have been reading what you shared here and based on what you wrote above I would say the real issue is an unwillingness on the part of many believers to live daily with one another and to not only encourage one another in their walk with the Lord but to admonish one another as well of the sin in their lives? For example if other brothers and sister would have come up along side any in the family and been willing to speak truth into their lives in a loving Christ like manner there would have been no need for an outsider to be involved. Is that what you are trying to say...it seemed as if it might be?

You also wrote:PS For any here who are struggling with a family member fallen by some psychological/behavioral condition, I say: Receiving help from secular people does not mean you lack faith.
__________

I will agree that it does not mean you lack faith and I don't think Jesus-is-God was saying that but it does require caution. Having suffered from bulimia and anorexia myself and dealing with those in the psychological field there is a need to use Godly wisdom and be very aware that some(not all) do have an agenda of worldliness that they push.

God Bless
mj

Certainly the Church seems to give psychologists lots of business and keeps them employed. Why is this so? The Church is supposed to be the "spiritual hospital". We have the truth that is supposed to make people whole, yet casualties are increasing, instead. I think to the degree that the Church is treated like a worldly organization and true relationships are ignored is the degree to which we will see these casualties increase.

But, my interpretation of this story is not the emphasis on the psychologists (that is a red herring to me), but rather the Church's lack of spiritual discernment of the individual members because she is so busily engaged in works and keeping the religious machine, fund raising, programs, etc, going.

Relationship is much more important to the Lord than good works.

Like I said before, "What good is it if you saved the world, but lose your family".

I think Diane is bringing a very important message to the forefront. It would be a shame to ignore or discount it. When we should be overcomers in Christ, many are living lives of quiet desperation sitting in the pew every Sunday and Wednesday, afraid to confide in the other "overcomers" sitting right next to them.

Pilgrim

I would have preferred the story would have been that of a caring Christian teacher who intervened. That Becky was encouraged by Biblical truth. That a caring Christ-centered community would have affirmed her.

I am generally opposed to generalizations ;) but looking back on my own 40+ years of growing up in conservative evangelical culture, I can report that we don't affirm very well at all.

If we view the conservative christian culture as a system, we can fairly say the system is very good at providing negative feedback but very poor at providing positive feedback. In other words, you only hear from us when you are doing something wrong.

The fictional Becky didn't start out "not communicating" to her parents. That's never the way it is. When she was younger she did reach out like any child is designed by God to do, and her parents signaled to her that they didn't care about her person...only her performance. That is how she learned to not communicate to them...she was trained accordingly.

Enter the fictional Ms. Jen. The funny thing about this controversy is that it is actually irrelevant that Ms. Jens was a left wing lesbian whatever. That information was a distraction. In Diane's story she wasn't evangelizing Becky to become a lesbian or a feminist. She simply cared for the girl. (Now we might have our suspicisons that she secretly was trying to recruit her for some cause, because we have our own designs for Becky...)

In the end the story is fictional, but it does raise some interesting questions.

If we be honest with ourselves, we do not care about the Becky's of this world. I have seen threads that are more concerned with correct doctrine than the souls of men and women...

Who is driving the Becky's to the secular venues for help? Let us look in the mirror.

I'll be even more honest here. Why do I go to secular venues for help? Because Conservative Christians have become so reactionary against humanism that they are losing knowledge of themselves as human beings. Consider the following "Becky's"...

A 50 year old man in Nebraska has been out of work for two years and is disparing for his future. and his family's well being. Secular venues provide counseling and skills training. Secular authors write helpful books on how to reasses your professional potential, and how to stay motivated in a down economy. What does the conservative church provide? Apocalyptic I told you so's and obligatory prayer.

A 30 year old woman in Florida is wounded deeply in her spirit from sexual abuse as a little girl and simply unable to respond to men in a healthy way. The secular world affirms her pain, and even opens to her feminist avenues of liberation from her shame. What does the consrvative church provide? Well, for starters, women teachers and counselors are viewed with suspicion, so a women has to learn to form illicit support groups through unspoken channels.

A teenager in Ohio has been rescued from sexual slavery. The secular world affirms her inner person through Psychology, and even New Age spiritualism. The conservative church is of course reactionary to psychology and new agism. We blush at the thought that becoming a Christian doesn't heal all wounds instantly ,and are left with a crude form of "behavorism". We tell one another "Be warm and well fed on the inside...You'll be fine when you behave fine."

Now I have a quandry, as I am a one of these conservative Christians. I can not depart from the scriptures as a rule for life. So what is my conclusion? That the conservative evangelical Church has entirely strained at gnats and swallowed camels when it comes to applying the scripture to life.

I suspect unspoken pain is the real reason many Christians "opt" out of organizational religion. We may claim we stay away from chuches because they don't uphold our particular doctrines, but we are more human then that I'm afraid. Afterall we don't stay away from Wal-Mart and Starbucks for their doctrinal stances. We stay away from religion because we simply don't have the energy to smile at the criticisms anymore.

MC

I would have preferred the story would have been that of a caring Christian teacher who intervened.

Me too! And let’s admit, that does happen, praise God!

Actually, I could post this story on a left-wing Christian site, and would receive wonderful applauds. It would certainly affirm the homosexual population but they'd miss the point. I would never post it there. My concern would be that the left wingers would use it to reinforce their own negative stereotyping of right wingers. The left wingers do not need anything to help them gloat over their “superior” version of Christianity. For them, the “Samaritan” may best be portrayed as a “born-again fundamentalist”. That’s the group they look down on. The left side needs to acknowledge that those “across the fence” are capable of compassion – and are not all merely hardliner bible thumpers who are anti-everybody. Maybe then they would also realize that their preoccupation with left-wing agendas dull them to the real needs of the neighbor – the Beckys. The shoe fits the other foot too!

I honestly say, I prayed over this before posting it! I was not unaware of the possibility of crucifixion. You have been very gracious and your various comments have been outstanding and merciful. I am blessed by you all.

Yet I do not deny the possibility of flawed work– and certainly my own deficiencies in “neighboring”. I continue to be amazed by how unsophisticated people can be so sensitive to real needs. And certainly, in spite of the ‘worldliness’ of social medicine, there are outstanding “neighbors” among them. They have knowledge and research that could immensely strengthen God’s people in their calling to bring about healing and repentance. And vice versa: One large research project on the youth crisis has recently acknowledged the vital need for relationship in community and with the transcendent. They have called on the church to provide a loving context for young people to heal and mature. Here is an opportunity to be a witness of Christ's healing power.

But as for me and others here, just as it was for the law expert – our zealous attention to theologies, religious practice, and the flaws of others can indeed dull our sensitivities to the real world of the human being. Oh! May God soften our hearts towards others. After all, we are equally in need of a Savior – and that is where we find ourselves on common ground.

Diane

so much conjecture

I have not conjectured but experienced. You may differ with my diagnosis, but my experiences are as I have said.

On the charge of painting with a broad brush I admit I am guilty. I admitted as much in my post.

Also, I would not compare Diane's story with the scriptures in any way. I would only say that the story raises valid issues to talk about.

And you are absolutely right to point out that there are many Christian ministries that help people. On that point, I agree wholeheatedly and thank you for pointing it out. My critique was focusing on the deficits I was seeing, and inlight of those ministries, I welcome the balance to my persepctive you bring.

Nevertheless, my critique is obviously shared here by at least some. It may be an invalid or even unfair perspective, but it is at least an interesting question to consider the cause of these shared feelings and views, even if they are invalid.

For the record, I attend church gladly. (But I think I shall always feel I am an outsider.) Now we do have ministries that reach out to the Becky's. However, I would point out that these ministries are usually started by mavericks who must work outside of the religous programs within the churches. Nevertheless, many "para-church" efforts are supported by churches, and to your point, become a credit to the church.

MC

JIG, I appreciate your concern over the harmful patterns in our social institutions – which actually is true for institutions in general. My husband teaches in the public system, so I hear plenty about distressing laws made that fail to benefit the students. I suspect they are aimed to serve our industrialism or political agenda.

I now see this issue from a wider perspective – a generalized societal condition that infects all aspects of it. (Isn’t that the definition of total depravity?) Our modern age has accumulated a lot of good knowledge which to a large extent gets ignored - eclipsed by ulterior motives. As scripture says, people always learning but not coming to the knowledge of the truth. Let’s admit, the church is in this too.

You likely are aware of some Christian online resources for training in care of one another – like Larry Crabb’s “Soul Care”. Wouldn’t it be great if all God’s people felt burdened to grown in this area of loving our “neighbor”. But we have to move past the assumption that only the ones with presenting problems need help. We have to think about what makes stronger communities in the first place - with effective relational habits. After all, the root cause of most emotional disorders is relational. And isn’t that also the original sin. Humanity fell from relationship with God, and since then they have had problems with relationship.

To Love GOD with all one's heart, mind, soul and strength comes 'before' loving others as ourselves.

Thanks for any understanding.

Well, everything you have written in your post i understand and agree with.

And to Jesus-is God's point, for those who would benefit from counseling, please seek out Christian counseling when and where it is available. If we find that a Christian perspective of our needs is not available, perhaps therein lies the suggestion of a calling upon our own lives one day.

And I would also add that the rise of the psychological counseling model in the church may be indicative of a decline in parenting, mentoring, and descipleship...three biblical models for investing in people's lives not always adhered to in our modern mobile society. So if some are wary or critical of the counseling model, let us at least consider that it may be filling a role abandoned by other models.

Blessings

MC

JIG,

Thank you for the very interesting testimony and material. You are uniquely qualified to weigh in on this topic!

I think we can all recognize a clear danger of psychology and psychiatry is that these professions become the sole arbiters of naming and defining what mental illness is, and thereby define what healthy humanity is. Obviously such authority needs to be vigorously challenged.

And I would like to add that I don't think these professions were the subject of Diane's post, nor were they a focus of my original post.

We find that if a person has one good friend that they can really Talk To - that that approach is more helpful than we've been."

I think this sums up much in this thread.

Blessings,

MC

Thank you for posting these links, JIG. It helps me to understand your concerns. The one site is obviously a mission to stamp out all psychiatrists. The other sites address drug overuse. Interesting, it is actually a body of psychiatrists and mental health experts who themselves are lobbying against the heavy reliance of professionals and pharmaceuticals – because that cannot remedy the mental health crisis. BTW, that’s the same group who is calling on the church to become actively involved in the nurture of children by becoming an authoritative community. At least some of the “culprits” are admitting they can’t fix the problem, and that nourishing relationship is essential. On this point they actually agree with scriptures – the epistles which stress relationship so strongly, and the repeated command to love your neighbor.

So here you have it: The church is receiving the call. However, we’re not ready to take the torch. This requires a radical change in the church – the entire way we do things. As long as we see the pattern as in Becky’s church, we will be deficient in our capacity to heal and nurture to spiritual maturity. We will merely remain part of the problem. And drugs will continue to be the treatment of choice for many. With drugs, you can feel better right away, and not have to go through the long painful process of changing your thinking and doing.

As long as our institutions – church, school, family and so forth remain trapped in their debilitated patterns and do not take up the challenge to change, the health care field will not have much choice but to provide remedial bandaid treatment. And when society is weak, the hegemony of science and health care will find it easy to exploit.

So we are at a stalemate – or rather a crisis. The church can’t fix itself and neither can the state. We need God to radically change us. And he can. But we must see the need. If it takes our “Good Samaritan” – whoever that may be - to expose our own failure to fulfill the great commandment – then so be it.

Jesus’ command: “Go and do likewise” was an act of mercy. He did not condemn the lawyer, but he did show him what to do to fulfill the law – through a “Samaritan” of all people!

And that is our calling today - within the very context of a fallen world.

Diane

"the fear of GOD

Yes, JIG, it really does come down to the fear of God. My words are all mere wood and stubble, but when we encounter God, then we become changed people.

Diane

Diane,

I did not read very many responces to your question so what I am going to say may have been said by another...

It really matters little who helped the girl, if indeed, she was helped. There are a lot of people among the ungodly who do humantarian work but whose heart is far from God. They may do acts of kindness to prove to themselves they do not need God, that they can be good without Him...or just maybe they have a compassionate nature and are concerned about others.

Helping a hurting individual will not earn the lesbian's entrance into heaven nor will it anyone else. Acts of kindness will characterize the life of a godly person but it will never be one's means to salvation.

BTW, I would not trust a lesbian with my granddaughter, even if she did assist my granddaughter. Being a lesbian is totally different from being a Samaritan. In todays world one would compare a Samariatan to a person who assists one of a different race, or religion of the prevailing one in the community.

ginnyrose

I did not read very many responces to your question

JIG, I trust that you will get an opportunity to read the responses in the earlier posts. I’m sure you will be blessed by these thoughtful contributions as I was. For now, I think the topic is adequately covered. I would prefer that we put closure to it now. Perhaps we can cover these other elements in a new thread. There’s so much that could be said, because we have a vast multifaceted topic here. You have done a lot of thinking about these things.

Tomorrow is a new day, and it’s going to be sunny and warm here. Winter is passing. And in the same way, it seems fitting that this thread pass as well. Let’s look for new blessings filled with the sunshine of joy.

Diane

Since I am new and have just read this post, may I just give you what I got from it when I read it?

After having read some of the responses, my impression wasn't of someone trying to give an endorsement of homosexuality. Or taking liberty with scripture. But the first thing that came to my mind was, "This could be an indictment against me or any other person who names the name of Christ."

As Christians we are to be sensitive to the needs of others as our Lord has commanded us. What kind of a testimony is it when a lost person (be it a practicing homosexual, atheist, pagan, etc.) who's compassion derives from within themselves and their own sense of misguided humanism, can shame us as Christians due to our lack of inaction. Even though we are the possessors of the Holy Spirit, a supernatural source, and are to have deeper springs of love and compassion.

A story like this should light a fire under us as this could be a real scenario. A young impressionable mind, or older impressionable mind, could be influenced by a source that might be ultimately damaging. All because we have been negligent.

Your last post [2012/3/11 19:19] should be addressed to Ginnyrose

I see we are not quite finished here. Ginnyrose raises a valid point which needs some treatment:

Acts of kindness will characterize the life of a godly person but it will never be one's means to salvation

So how do we reconcile Jesus words with our prized doctrine “sola fide” (faith alone):

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

I would say that it is essential to understand the man whom Jesus addressed his parable. In order to make correct conclusions we must look at the parable through that man's eyes, not our own. What would the law expert have understood from Jesus?

Here’s a question: Might our “evangelistic” works – our strategies for winning converts actually conceal us from a failure to “be sensitive to the needs of others as our Lord has commanded us”. (to quote jdlashley)

What about our constant attentiveness to certain laws or doctrines – with no awareness of what is going on in another person – or no awareness of the general societal angst today?

Diane