Women preaching

we've been under the same conviction as well, and we studied the scriptures, and prayed through the situation, and are no longer following the church as we once used to. it wasn't easy, we looked forward to watching their services; however, taking up our cross wasn't meant to be easy.

if a plane is flying to its' destination and veers off-course by 1 degree, it lands at the wrong destination. we did write to the church asking them to pray through the scriptures that we'd studied re: the same matter and they never responded. we'll still pray for them as the Lord leads though.

bless you, glad to hear we're no the only ones w/this conviction.

"There is a ministry that has been life changing for me, it has called me out of medocracy that dominates the church"

I am not sure if we are talking about the same place (no need to name names) but I have been bothered by the same. Since I do not attend that local assembly and have no influence to speak into the lives of the elders there I just let it be. I do believe there is a little wiggle room on this issue though, but in the situation of the entire church coming together I am not sure that is the right place for a sister to be taking the role of teaching if I read scripture correctly.

Beware of one thing, no matter how much humility you approach this subject with, these types of convictions may get you called a pharisee.

In Christ -jim

Hi Leeza. I hope I can help some with your dilemma and at the same time, not go against what I also feel His Word says plainly enough.

I had to think on your question since you posted it and wanted to say that, from what I remember reading, it was D.W. that had her put into that ministry.
Well, I've prayed since you posted for an answer and while reading another forum - a News forum - someone posted a prophetic word by him from years back - one that isn't in any publications that the ministry has to share and it dawned on me that since I first read his vision back in the 70's, his main message has been, "something economic+, is coming". It was in his books, messages, newletters and so forth.
Well - that got me to thinking this afternoon while talking with a Sis on the phone that - most Pastor's wives are seldom looked to for help - only the Pastor is.
If there were a crisis situation - who among us would run to our Pastor's wife? I know a lot of Pastor's wives and they aren't taken very seriously. Folks look to the Pastors first or deacons if the Pastor's not around.

My 'theory' is - that D.W., seeing since the 70's that trouble on a large scale was coming - wanted this particular Pastor's wife to be seen as someone that can be a "help" when that 'something' happens because he felt she's quailified to work side-by-side 'with' her husband and shouldn't be wasted when the time comes - but be seen as one who is strong enough to handle the needs of the sheep under their care.

So that's my theory - coming from one who won't sit under a women Pastor - but may see why she's where she is and if my theory is true - I see his point.

In Christ's Peace,
your sis.

Hi Brother Earl.

You said "Women preaching, no worries. Women in authority over men ....."

I agree, as I stated, I won't sit under a woman Pastor. Your view about "women preaching" - I can't quite agree with. A woman being asked to speak in an evening service, such as Elisabeth Elliot would or Corrie Ten Boom, that's different than being the main source in the main service.

What I gave is my theory of why I believe that DW gave her a position before things happen in this country that he wrote about.

I don't know all about how they are doing things there - but is she "in authority over men" or just "preaching"? - as you differentiated those two in your post.

Others here would know more about the services and could answer that. Do they feel she's usurping authority?

I am not going to bother to add my 2 cents worth to this conversation because everyone already knows where I stand on it. It's clear to me that women are not called to preach where there are men present. There is nothing to debate where scripture is clear without getting into opinions, which mean nothing.

I would like to comment on something that someone said earlier in this conversation though...

Beware of one thing, no matter how much humility you approach this subject with, these types of convictions may get you called a pharisee.

I will take this one step further... any time a believer stands steadfastly upon the Word of God, other self-professing Christians (who generally take a stand on nothing) will label that person a pharisee.

Happens all the time, especially on forums like this. I'm not saying that to mean, it's just a fact.

Krispy

"I agree, as I stated, I won't sit under a woman Pastor. Your view about "women preaching" - I can't quite agree with. A woman being asked to speak in an evening service, such as Elisabeth Elliot would or Corrie Ten Boom, that's different than being the main source in the main service."

I agree with JIG about sitting under a woman pastor. This is also where, today, a lot of our confusion comes from. We have to try and figure out how to shove the teachings of scripture into an institutional mold. There were no services of course in the early church, and a plurality of elders sitting among the brethren - not dominating the meeting through a false clergy-laity divide.

I am very interested in what this looks like in the early church style meeting rather then in the modern IC.

In Christ Jim

"hi, niether jew nor greek nor male or female.jimp"

The last I looked around there were still males and females in the church? This verse could not be taken more out of context dear brother. The same apostle who wrote that also wrote countless instructions on how men and women are to behave different and have different roles in the home and church including this:

1Co 14:34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.

Respectfully in Christ -Jim

Do you both believe in the prophetic gifts? Do you both believe that prophesy and tongues operate today? Or do you hold that prophesy and tongues ceased after the first century? Just courious.

Blaine Scogin

Do you both believe in the prophetic gifts? Do you both believe that prophesy and tongues operate today? Or do you hold that prophesy and tongues ceased after the first century? Just courious.

...sigh... here we go again.

What in the wide wide world of sports does this have to do with this topic?? This is becoming a litmus test on here. If someone agrees with this then you'll listen to them, and if they dont then you can just dismiss what they say because after all: they are not enlightened like you are.

It's a foolish man/woman who only listens to or surrounds themselves with those who agree with them.

Stop this foolishness, everyone.

Krispy

All tight. You say cut this nonsense. I agree. Let the sisters go in the name of Jesus Christ to preach the word! Let the sisters go in the name of Jesus Christ to prophesy the things of Christ! Let the sisters go in the name of Jesus Christ to lay hands on the sick and raise the dead! Let the sisters go in the name of Jesus Christ and reap the harvest!

For while you are debating who is qualified to go work in the harvest the sisters are responding to the call! Jesus Christ commanded them to go preach and make disciples of all nations in Mat.28. Be empowered them by the Holy Spirit in Acts 2. The Holy Spirit is no respector of gender. He empowers man or woman who has an open heart to be filled with his Spirit. So I say to the sisters. GO! GO! GO! In the name of King Jesus Go and proclaim his kingdom. For you were commissioned 2000 years ago to fo this. Go, my sisters, and preach Jesus.

And I say BRAVO! And I say BRAVO! For those sisters who hear the King's call to advance his gospel. For surely Jesus is pleased with them.

Now let the forum howl. For surely I have given you something to howl about.

Blaine Scogin

There is no scriptural foundation for women Pastors, or teachers over men. It is soundly forbidden, for a reason. The Bible says that the woman IS the weaker vessel.

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

For Adam was first formed, then Eve."

I have not seen one example of a church where women were in authority over men, in there teaching ministry, or Pastoral ministry, where there was not error; Some more egregious than others.

Saying that, are sisters in Christ forbidden to be used by the Holy Spirit, in gifting or testimony in meetings? Of course they are not forbidden, but encouraged. The gifts and testimonies are required, and they are neither male nor female.

The Pulpit/lay class mentality has ruined the body-life exchange of the early church.

"But if ALL..[ male and female ] prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of ALL:

And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together,....EVERY ONE OF YOU...[ men and women is everyone ] hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying."

This is an example of how an early Church meeting was conducted, with Jesus as Head, and in control, not an agenda...[ no matter what the church bulletin may say..]. It is Jesus' body, not mans, and God has put male Shepherds; always PLURAL!, there to assure that He is NOT shut out, or "Quenched", as usually happens in today's churches.

Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is FREEDOM! The only person who was declared THE PASTOR [singular ] in the New Testament was a HERETIC!,,,wicked Diotrephes in 3John, who LOVED the Preeminence.

Also, let us consider Isaiah 61. This IS the ministry of the Holy Spirit, and it is as much female as male....for it is of Him, and He dwells in a body of brothers and sisters....ISAIAH 61

THE COMMANDED ANOINTING FOR HIS BODY; BOTH SISTERS AND BROTHERS!...THIS IS THE MINISTRY.

"The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations!"

So, can a woman preach? She can surely testify of the day of vengeance that is coming, can't she?...or testify of the good tidings to the meek, can't she? Could she lead someone to Jesus?

Could she proclaim liberty to the captives? or is she to be in silence too, ? and just let them perish? How does she comfort? You get my point.

The gospel is neither male nor female, for Christ is neither male nor female in His indwelling.

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

The only thing a sister may not do is to teach, or usurp authority over men, and she is not allowed to rule as a New Testament Pastor. Other than that, she may testify of Jesus to her heart's content, and comfort the World with His Holy Spirit while prophesying and operating in ALL of the gifts, while being as close to Jesus as any other on Earth.

I think that this is God's desire for His daughters...and He desires they walk in this freedom and grace...and it is their personalities that will soar, with their spirits when this occurs.

In the third world Christ centered women are evangelizing and starting churches with signs and wonders. In persecuted countries and restricted nations women are leading networks of house churches in the thousands. Mainly because the men have been thrown into jail for their faith in Christ. The persecuted church operates in a different paradyne then our western mindset. Persecution is an equal opportunity giver. It knows no gender.

The kingdom of God is a bigger reality then our minds can concieve. For surely God is pleased with these sisters who are evangelizing and leading house church networks. More so tban us binding the sisters to fulfill the great commission that Jesus commanded in Mat.28.

Has anyone heard of YWAM? Wycliff? IHOP, oops forgot they are taboo here. There are many young sisters who are hearing the call to go and proclaim the King's message. And I say again BRAVO that they hear the call and go in the freedom of the Holy Spirit. For surely they are not bound by the shackles of religion.

There is a time that Jesus will return to wrap up history on this planet. There is a harvest to be teamed. Are we going to stand on the sidelines arguing who is qualified to reap? Or will we grab our cycles and go? I want to do the latter?

I pray God will deliver us from debate and raise up on fire men and women to go and advance his kingdom purposes.

Blaine Scogin

For while you are debating who is qualified to go work in the harvest the sisters are responding to the call!

Gee... I didnt even offer a thought or word about women preachers. I'm not debating anyone.

Just stating that there is foolishness on this board lately in which some (you particularly) write people off that havent experienced God exactly like you have. That is an arrogant and prideful (and ignorant) place to be... and quite dangerous. I fear for you, my friend. And you know that I love you.

Now, as it pertains to women preachers, scripture could not be clearer on the subject and Paul even went on to explain why... as if God needs to explain Himself. (He doesnt)

Since scripture is so black and white clear about it... there is no reason to debate it. I just simply repeat what is written in scripture.

Blaine, this not the first time that you have ripped a section of scripture out of the Bible (tho you will never admit that’s what you’re doing) and just tossed it onto the ground and stomped on it. The glee (you’re Bravo’s) in which you disregard scripture is the measure of your foolishness. The Bible says what it says and you cannot simply tear a section out. Every word, every phrase has to be reconciled with truth.

You have not done that, my friend.

And if you’re going to make claims about third world countries, why not back it up with sources? Even Benny Hinn makes claims about dead people being resurrected. Why? Because it cant be proven and gullible Christians buy into it... literally.

As for IHOP... I like their pancakes. They have great coffee too! I'm glad that they sued that cult in Kansas City for stealing their trademarked name. I wouldnt want people confusing me with those people either.

Krispy

No doubt I will get painted as calling all women preachers evil... but actually if people go back in the past and read what I have written on similar threads they will discover that this is not the case.

God will use a woman in some cases as a preacher. Many men today have been lazy, disobedient and have abandoned their positions in the church for selfish and sinful reasons. Or men have refused to go as church planters and leaders to other areas of the world, and God has raised up women in their place... much to the men's disgrace.

Where Blaine really misses it is in claiming that any of us are against women going into all the world.

First off all... he is taking everything out of context. Paul is talking about women teaching men in a church setting, and he is talking about women leading churches in pastoral roles. They are not allowed, this is forbidden.

But women can go and evangelize, no one here denies that.

Krispy

And I will gladly stand and affirm those Christ centered women who are doing the work of the kingdom. If God so allowed it then I would count it an honor to co labor with them in the things of Christ. For surely they are doing the King's bidding and advancing his kingdom purposes.

Krispy while you are trying to get correct theology these sisters are bringing souls into the kingdom. They are doing the masters bidding. And I say, Praise God and bless Jesus for what they are doing.

If it weren't for the sisters the work of the gospel would not get done. Simply put. The men are not responding to the call. But the women are. In the con call I facilitate the participants are sisters who pray powerful prayers. The Persecution Watch is open to any brother or sister who desires to come and pray. Very few men come. But the sisters do come and pray and they are faithful. The men have generally fallen off.

So bro you go ahead and respond with sourcasm. You write the mods and tell them to ban me. But someone had to have the guts and speak against the teligious spirit that pervades this forum.

Now to be to the King's business.

Blaine Scogin

I would respond with an understanding of the verses in question. But the understanding would be rejected by you and others in this forum. For there are many here who take New Testament truth and put believers under a yoke that is heavier than Christ himself.

Blaine Scogin

Krispy while you are trying to get correct theology these sisters are bringing souls into the kingdom.

Thats quite an implication to make about me when you dont know anything about me. While you didnt say it directly you are implying I do nothing to advance the kingdom. Think what you wish... it doesnt bother me. You can be an accuser of the brethren if you wish, but typically thats Satan's job, Blaine.

Do be careful on that thin ice...

If it weren't for the sisters the work of the gospel would not get done. Simply put. The men are not responding to the call. But the women are. In the con call I facilitate the participants are sisters who pray powerful prayers. The Persecution Watch is open to any brother or sister who desires to come and pray. Very few men come. But the sisters do come and pray and they are faithful. The men have generally fallen off.

Hmmm... isnt that EXACTLY what I just said? You might want to actually read what people post before you respond to it.

So bro you go ahead and respond with sourcasm.

Anyone who disagrees with you responds with "sourcasm", in your mind.

You write the mods and tell them to ban me.

Ask the mods... I've never done that. (I can see now why you chose the name 'martyr'... lol)

Believe it or not, Blaine... I actually like you.

But someone had to have the guts and speak against the teligious spirit that pervades this forum.

I dont even know what "teligious" means. OH! You mean "religious"! Sorry...

Yea, I know, anyone who pulls out the Bible and adheres to what is written in it has a "religious" spirit.

Without sound doctrine and sound theology... we have nothing. If it wasnt important then why did Paul write 13 letters that are nothing BUT sound doctrine and sound theology?

The Bible IS a theology book. Theology means "The Study of God"... and if we dont have what you call "correct theology"... then we have the wrong God.

Why do you despise and mock sound doctrine and theology when Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, Luke, etc all embraced it and encouraged us to hold to it?

Krispy

Sister Leeza...

I can not comment about this person in particular because I have no idea who it is, nor witnessed the "signs following". Great numbers of converts is not always the sign of God's blessings either. Joel Osteen has great numbers and it doesnt mean a thing.

My pastor is a tremendous student and teacher of the Word, and people get saved in our church, but the Charismatic "signs" (so-called slain in the spirit, barking like dogs, etc) do not occur. Some, like Blaine would write us off because of that... without knowing anything about our church. I'm there 4 or 5 times a week, I can tell you that the Holy Spirit is working, praise the Lord.

How do I know this? FRUIT... mainly LOVE. There is FAITH. There is HOPE. There is salvation and spiritual growth, and the Bible is taught. I mean REALLY taught. We serve one another, we laugh together, we cry together, we take care of one another... and we serve our community both physically and spiritually. We go outside our own walls and preach the gospel to the lost world. We dont just sit around learn theology, like Blaine accused me of doing. Yes, we learn it, but then we put it out there where the rubber meets the road.

Sometimes a pastor can minister for years and never see the fruit of the ministry. Missionaries encounter that on a daily basis. Sometimes years after they pass away the fruit finally is harvested... by someone else.

What am I saying? Experience is important, but it does not trump the Word of God. Experience only matters when it agrees with God's Word. If it doesnt agree with what is written... reject it. Period.

Now, I already stated that God does use women in the pulpit. But it is never the norm. A woman in authority over men in the church house only brings confusion into the family house. How can a woman pastor teach wives to submit unto their husbands... who she is in authority over? She can not. It's confusion.

Take the gospel to the lost? Absolutely. Paul was writing about in the church, not on the street.

Sister Diane...

You know I love you! I have to be honest and tell you that I am very much opposed to almost everything you have written. Sorry. :-)

Still friends?

Krispy

I hope you were joking. You've never seen me judge any ministry unless it was something that was obviously in seriour error... like Hinn, or Joyce Meyer... or Joel Osteen.

In such cases we are called to judge.

I get more generalities thrown at me than anynoe I know... lol

Krispy

Krispy, think you have me confused with Lysa, I am leeza, the pharassitical trouble maker that started this mess :)

Too many lisa's! lol... ok, well, whichever one that was in response to... that was for you!

Krispy

I dont have a lot of time to write right now, but it started with what you wrote about the church in general. While there are some things I might agree with there, I used to reject church structure (i.e. government). I dont anymore.

I could understand how you would have no problem with women pastors if I subscribed to your view of church structure (which doesnt seem to be a structure at all).

Thats the root of our disagreement, unless I misunderstood what you were saying... which wouldnt be anything new! :-)

Krispy

Diane...

Reading your previous post in light of what you just posted… I got a different “meaning” behind what you were saying. Funny how that works!

There was much there that you said, and truly there are many “pastors” who were never called by God. They think that their college degree makes them called… or a talent for entertaining a crowd makes them called. Even an ability to teach does not mean they should teach in the church.

Do I think that women should never teach in the church? Let me preface my answer by saying that people tend to hear someone like me give an answer… and they don’t really listen to the answer. They hear what they want to hear and then take it to an extreme. Kind of like I did with you original post. We all do it.

I say I think the KJV is the best translation in English and they hear me say:

“The KJV is the ONLY English version we should read, and the translators were inspired as the Apostles were, and King James himself was just a notch below Jesus on the wonderful scale.”

Well, that’s not what I said. I said I think the KJV is the best translation in English… nothing more, nothing less.

So here is my answer: Women are not called to PASTOR a church or shepherd a church. Paul’s letters to Timothy and Titus bear it out that it is a position to be held by a man, and he explains exactly why. It goes back to the fall of Adam and Eve.

Women are also plainly forbidden to teach men IN THE CHURCH. That is, in the local fellowship. It never said they can not teach in the church… it said they can not teach MEN. The older woman are actually commanded to teach the younger women in the fellowship. And of course they are to teach the children. (and so are the men)

Outside of the church they are to proclaim the gospel. Proclaim it to all. Men, women and children.

But in the church, no, they are not to teach the men of the church.

Again, Paul explains why.

Can a woman teach a Christian man thru a para-church organization? Like a Beth Moore or someone like that? My personal opinion is no. When we teach we teach as one who has authority… and the principle is that a Christian woman should not exert authority over Christian men. So for me personally I think we would all do well to err on the side of being too conservative.

Paul even goes on to use the word "usurp", which means to take autority away from, or to steal one's authority. Women should not "usurp" the authority of the men in the church. Thats what the Bible says.

Finally, I recognize that God does use women in extreme circumstances where there are no men who are mature enough in the Lord to be able to shepherd a church… say on the mission field. But again, the woman is in that situation because some Christian man is being lazy and disobedient and did not answer the call. She went while a Christian man did not.

She is being obedient. God honors that, although it is not according to the way He orders. God is a God of order and not chaos. He used a donkey to speak to Balam because Balam was not listening. He used a fish to get Jonah’s attention.

Because they did not listen and heed Gods Word, He found another means in which to accomplish His will.

That’s where I stand on this. Hope it makes sense.

Krispy

Most excellent video of women preachers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZyHnau0--E&list=UU3qhHuErbmxJZElXWIGkrBQ&index=5&feature=plcp

jimp said:
"hi jim, as i posted earlier that sat separately from the men as do the orth.jews do to this day and are and were to be silent in that situation.

jim says:
There are countless examples that christian men and woman are different in the Church and home. Not better or worse, just different.

jimp said:
we are a new creation in Gods eyes but not yours for you see only what you can see. jimp

jim says:
You speak from the flesh and I believe you are an older man who should be setting a better example for us younger ones. I fellowship in a more new testament pattern where sisters can pray, prophesy and share from the Lord along with the men. Yet this post is about a woman who has the name PASTOR in front of her name on the fellowship website. I will have to stick with the word of God and its outline of pastors and not bow to the whims of any man on that one. A sister is not to have that authority over a brother according to the apostles. I do see there are many super apostles on this site though that second guess Pauls instructions to the Church just as there were when he was alive.

I am thankful for those here who shared to help me figure out how this looks exactly in a new testament style local church. What I realize is that the word of God is very clear on the qualifications for an elder. Beyone that I am trying to see if there are things we are doing wrong, or not according to the spirit of the word of God.

I will only say again that the same apostle that wrote no male or female wrote countless instructions specifically to males and females in the home and church. Thankfully the most simple person on this website can recognize and accept that fact, even if we are not sure how that plays out in real life situations.

-Jim

Blaine said:
Do you both believe in the prophetic gifts? Do you both believe that prophesy and tongues operate today? Or do you hold that prophesy and tongues ceased after the first century? Just courious.

Brother, I do and sisters and brothers share the same in our meetings (NT style, not IC style). The word of God is clear on one thing, sisters are not to be pastors - to have that authority over brothers. We need to read adn accept the word of God even if it disagrees with our thinking. Paul was branded by Christ, forsook everything for Him, and with that mind of a servant of Christ thought wise by the Holy Spirit to give us clear instructions on this matter. Beyond that I am trying to see what some of the other less clear passages on the sisters in the NT style Church are. I am blessed to fellowship with sisters who actually encourage the brothers to be men, spiritual leaders, care for the flock of God. There are some distinct roles for sisters and brothers - that truth is undeniable in scripture. I only want to know the truth to avoid error on both sides. Most people fall into error by believing that there is only error on side, so they naturally fall into the ditch they are not even aware of.

God bless you brother.

Jim

leeza said:
"Krispy, think you have me confused with Lysa, I am leeza, the pharassitical trouble maker that started this mess :)"

Jim says:
I had you pegged as a pharisee from the get go.. (jk of course)

God bless -jim

Blaine said: "For surely they are not bound by the shackles of religion."

Brother - do you believe a sister that is quiet at home, caring for her family, and submits to her believing husband is bound by the "shackles of religion?"

In Christ -Jim

The Holy Spirit is a dynamic that cannot be controlled by the religious institutions or theology of men. Jesus made this known to a religious teacher in his day. He told Nicodemus concerning the Spirit likening him to the wind. You hear its sound. But you cannot tell where it is coming from or where it is going.

So we see around the world God is raising up new venues we call the church. A number of these churches are led by women who are annoited and filled with Christ. The6 preach, teach, do signs and wonders and bring souls into the kingdom. They are following the Spirit.

What we call church government was not to be written in stone. Letters were written to various churches that had different problems. The apostles and others who wrote those letters were addressing correctives to particular issues. These correctives were not meant to be binding on all churches for all times.

What we perceive in our western mind set as the church will not apply in Africa or Asia. Jesus gave the simplest definition of a church. He defined it as where two or three came togetherin his name he was present. Very simple. The only church government is his presence. Church government set up by man kills the Holy Spirit. I say it again. Church government kills the Holy Spirit.

In a venue where the Holy Spirit is leading and men and women are listening to him. Any can lead. Men or women if they are annoited by the Spirit and called by God. For thisi s what is happening in many third world fellowships.

We will not see this happen in America because our concern is for theology. We are religious. The one thing we are so expert at is killing the Holy Spirit. We have the fire hoses of theology ready to put the Spirit's fire out at a moments notice.

When everything is said and done. Our churches will be the most doctrinally pure but the deadest in the world.

Blaine Scogin

"I haven't found anyone who will explain this verse yet!"

Then you havent been paying attention sister. It seems that Paul worte there is no male or female in Christ, and since we dont care about context here, that cancels out everything else he ever wrote.

I think Paul must have repented of his sexist attitude after he wrote that to timothy and realized he was binding women with religion and silencing sisters who God had filled with the Holy Spirit. Paul must have been awakened to truth by the same wise council that is being presented on SI, and thankfully he came around to seeing his error in his writing to timothy. Thats when he wrote there is no male or female to show he repented of all the previous things he had written about the roles of brothers and sisters.

"Church government kills the Holy Spirit. I say it again. Church government kills the Holy Spirit."

What about eldership in the church that meets house to house and among the poor in the inner city? That is appointed by God for theie to be elders among the sheep not ruling over them, pastors to build up the body, not rule over it. That is Godly, and it is appointed ot brothers to be pastors, not sisters.

"We will not see this happen in America because our concern is for theology."

This is a straw man and false dichotomy brother. I have seen this happen in America, in a dirty little city in America. The word of God and the spirit of God are not at war with each other dear brother. There are always times when God will do something outside of what we think or percieve to be His word of course though... I will give you that. But, never will He contradict it.

In Christ -Jim

One more thing, I have seen the fire of God fall and taken part in a small local revival and one of the thing that killed it was a lack of doctrine. Someone came in and started teaching law/sabbath keeping and the brothers that should have spoken up and put the man out of fellowship didnt. That grieved the Holy Spirit mightilly. Where was the sound teaching of Christ being our sabbath rest, of every man being pursuaded fully in his own mind on days?

I guess its all just good in the holy spirit though - whatever we want to say the holy spirit is teaching us is fine even if it contradicts the clear writings of the apostles?

God forbid.

Sister I could give you my understanding of 1 Tim.2:11-12. But if I did so there would be so much howling in the forum. So why bother in a hostile environment.

If you really want me to share my thoughts then please email me and I will gladly share my thoughts on these verses. My email address should be in my profile. To bad the PM function was dropped from SI.

Blaine

brother no. A sister who is fulfilling her rile as wife and mother is not bound by the shackles of religion.

Blaine

Brother that is truly a blessed exception that a Christ centered church leadership is leading in a spiritual way. But as a whole. I reiterate my statement. Church government, theology, or let's say religion kills the Spirit.

Blaine

Sister no. The Bible is not the theology of men. It is the word of God. But its how men apply the Bible that becomes the issue.

Look forward to your email.

Blaine

Blaine said:

"But as a whole. I reiterate my statement. Church government, theology, or let's say religion kills the Spirit."

Amen brother. If it does anything to nurture our brotherhood let me say that I hate religion too, we might just have a couple different ideas in a couple areas of what is religion of the flesh and what is spiritual. I used to neglect my family I spent so much time in back alleys of the ghetto preaching to gang members and addicts- I thought I was real spiritual yet I was becoming worse than an infidel according to scripture. Now I am spending time at home, taking seriously Gods order in the house and Church, before being allowed to go back out to the streets if He sends me. Gods word brings life when obeyed in faith with a heart of love.

If you didn’t live like 1000 miles away I would invite you over my house to share your heart on these things, but the forum is a poor tool for talking and breeds contention where there is no need for any. Opposing opinions are often exagerated in our minds and things go down hill from there. I have done it before and seen it done plenty. Things easily get misunderstood, mis-spoken, and with that I bow out of this thread. God bless you in Christ Jesus.

Jim

You are tracking in the right direction, Leeza and I'm tracking along with you. Other than not teaching men in any congregation or usurping authority over them in the Church, I've had full freedom in ministry since first saved.
The gender in the Greek for elders is 'masculine' noun.
There were deaconesses in the Church that were to attend to female-only issues, which makes much sense.

I can't remember the exact year - but there were some females from SI, maybe 4 or more yrs ago, that believed as we do on this thread topic and felt as 'help-mates' to the men - that we should be 'praying' for The LORD to truly meet our Brother's needs and raise them up as GODly men and raise up more GODly men that did know the times and could lead into sound doctrine and be the 'backbones' of the Body. That's what we prayed then and there are even more of us now that are praying this very thing in our prayer closets.

Regarding women needing to lead in foreign countries - that's rare but when it does happen - these women are praying for men to take over. Praying that a man would come and take the lead role.

There did arise a problem when we women were praying though - a few men took this too far and wanted the women to not even share here on the forum or anywhere, for that matter.

Why must we always have extremes? I suppose whenever anyone sets out to truly pray anything in His Will, the enemy will try to twart or wrest it. It did silence the women from even praying together anymore - at that time - but that hasn't stopped us from praying together in spirit.

Praying one for another and thus fulfilling the law of Christ.

GOD Bless you!

You know, I am just liting upon this thread now so I am going to comment about the title of this thread.

There is a vast difference between Preaching and Teaching.

Preaching is declaring a thing, while teaching is expounding a thing.

Anyone can preach. Any woman can repeat what she has heard from the authority to which Christ has ordained.

That's my 2cents worth.

Blaine... you're no doubt going to see this as an attack, but in my heart I know it is not. But I cant help how you receive...I can only speak the truth and let God work on you.

I finally understand where you are coming from, and it's much plainer here on this thread than on any other. You have a rebellious spirit. I dont mean spirit as some kind of demonic spirit, I just mean your attitude is one of rebellion.

You rebel against the very words of the Bible "Study to show thyself approved...", the Bereans were commended for their earnest study to see if what they were being taught was true.

You mock that. You mock theology and sound doctrine, all the while the Bible commands it! And anyone that does take such things seriously and obey the Word of God in that area YOU accuse of not being concerned about taking the gospel to the lost, etc etc. Such accusations are baseless, especially when you make them about people you do not even know.

Paul went to great lengths to bring order to the church in the form of church government... inspired by the same Holy Spirit that YOU say smashes all of that to the ground.

You have stated right here on this thread that the God the Holy Spirit is not bound by His own words... the Bible.

YOU have called God a liar, you just dont realize it.

You may come back and say to me "how can you say such things when you dont even know me?"

I am simply responding to the words you have said right here. And you've said a lot.

And to be honest, I hope I am wrong! But I am convinced that I am not.

Friend... I beg of you to repent of this rebellion. You are not in a good place. Oh, you think you are because PRIDE goes hand in hand with rebellion, and you have shown both here.

Please please consider my words, heed the warning, and repent.

I would not do this publically normally, but I have no way of speaking to you privately... and I am very concerned for your spiritual well being.

Krispy

Stephen I look at you and I see myself several years ago. A person who gloried in doctrine and theology. I worshipped the five canons of Dort and argued the particulars of Calvinistic theology. I was more concerned to bring people to Calvin then to Christ.

Bro Praise God Jesus delivered me from Calvinism and brought me back to Jesus. My delight is in him, not Calvin or any other theologian. Stephen, my issue is not with the Bible which is God's wotd. My issue is with men who put people in legalustic bondage under the Bible, particularly the New Testament that sets people free.

Stephen much to the relief of you and everyone else I withdraw from the forum. The religious spirit is too entrenhed here. Theology and doctrine have won out here. Thus may you exalt in your theology. I leave bro.

I wlli continue in my rebellion to cry out for the lost and the persecuted. And global evangelism.

Moderators, please remove my name off the list as I will no longer participate in the forum. I am sure much to the great relief of many. I withdraw.

With blessing.

Blaine Scogin

What in the world does Calvinism have to do with any of this?

Sorry you feel the way you do about me. I hope you reconsider taking your ball and going home. I actually like you and having you around here.

Krispy

I'm not a moderator?? Nuts...

Mocking the truth and those who obey scripture needs to be addressed.

Sorry, I didnt enjoy doing it, but what I said needed to be said.

I have a very deep concern for Blaine, and spent much time in prayer this morning before posting what I did.

Krispy

Yea, I guess it is. lol

Name calling... something I wont participate in.

Krispy

Whoa there girly, back up there a bit.

I am going on the basis of what Paul said, "suffer not a woman to teach".

I like Joyce Meyer too, I admire her boldness, but not everything that she teaches is right. Her ministry is the ministry of "Helps", helping women overcome the problems that they have had to face with abuse which she has endured and overcame. I love her stories and her down to earthness but she goes beyond herself because that is what these ministries do, they do the whole gamut and can't be satisfied to stay in the calling God has called them. If you look at all the big name preachers they all do the same things. This tells me that they are going beyond their calling. And when you go beyond your calling you go into error. You may be a prophetess but I am not, but if I try to be a prophet I am going to get into trouble. I digress.

The act of Preaching can have many aspects associated with it. I think you believe in the gifts of the Spirit for us today, in preaching, these gifts can manifest. Especially prophecy, word of wisdom, word of knowledge and the discerning of spirits. These all can manifest during the preaching of a message.

"Do not allow a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority of the man", tells me that this office of teaching is left to the men and she is not to teach men. Why? Because Eve went beyond her office and usurped the man by taking matters into her own hands. With every temptation it begins with a thought and then staying on that thought and finally your doing it. It also denotes that Eve "taught" Adam to eat of that tree, convinced him so to speak.

In the extra apocrypha books, if memory serves, Eve was deceived by the cunning words of the Serpent to eat of the fruit but she couldn't bring herself to deceive Adam so the Serpent said that he would be a lying spirit in her tongue to convince Adam, of course we know how that played out.

I am not talking about the deadness of what men teach, your right the churches are full of them and this generation is turned off and I don't blame them, so am I. A man has his place and a woman has hers, it's just not in the realm of teaching men.

Have I answered your inquiry, if not, let me know. Thanks.

When Paul said that there is neither male nor female but we are all one in Christ Jesus he isn't cancelling out male and female roles, he is cancelling out the fact that in Christ there is no genders. But living on this earth in this material world, there are genders and God has ordained authorities that we should be subjected to. Yes, men need to be subjected just as men need to be subjected.

An example of this is the fact that we are no longer under the law, but in this world, we are. We can't cancel out the law of the land and tell the judge, "I can speed all I want,, I am not under the law." That foolishness will give us a bad testimony and make Jesus out to be an idiot. But you know, we have people just like that in our Churches today?

In the Spirit there is liberty, in this flesh and this world, there is bondage. We are subjected to the bondage until we are set free from it.

The idea that "not suffering a woman to teach" in itself, is not in context. The scriptural context is, "over the man."

"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." The teaching is primarily about dividing doctrine, and holy doctrines ARE the Pillars of the New Testament Church.

Women are to be in silence in these areas; they are not permitted to teach them in the local church, to assess them [ doctrines ] as the right and correct path for any; the plural shepherds do that.

However, the Sisters in Christ ARE commanded to teach.

1st; They are commanded to teach good things. The testimony of Jesus, and how another may submit to them. Picture a young sister in a factory, working away, and an unbelieving woman, attracted to her love and light asks a question about her live in boyfriend. Is this OK with God?

Obviously, she would speak the truth in love, obviously teaching a holy doctrine; "No. it is not...and why, according to the Word.

The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

2: That the elder sisters teach a variety of holy and practical issues to the younger sisters:

"That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed."

And....ALL OF ISAIAH 61!...amen?

Amen Tom...! This is exactly what I have said on this thread at least three times.

Krispy

"Second Hand Reiteration"?

Dear Lord, now that is a dead sermon. I hate those types of messages. I love those ones that you hear the man talking but then all of a sudden your hearing Jesus, and then it's back to the man and then Jesus, it's like waves coming in. You hear the water go out and the noise is quelled somewhat and then it starts to come back and the noise and the power of the wave comes in with force and that is good preaching!

Preaching and Prophesying go hand in hand, you can't get away from it unless the message is controlled by the person and not the Holy Spirit.

Prophesying I mean, not fortelling the future, though that gift can manifest during a message and the person be not aware of what he is saying while preaching. But prophesying to encourage, admonish and even to warn.

As for teaching though, I think Brother Tom sums it up quite well.

[ This is "OFF POST" a little, but in light of the conflict here, I wanted to throw it in, as just another failing and struggling brother. ]

It saddens me to see good people hurt enough here to "pack up", and leave. I really don't get it, except to think that to be in a sword fight, you have to wield a sword.

I guess it comes from a sense of defending your convictions, which in a sense is perfectly healthy, but goes overboard when you must reject and despise another's. Then, a person feels slighted, or they are angry, because their ideas are continually, in their eyes, opposed, and by rejecting them, also the Truth. [ It has to be that, because I thunk it! ]

Here, everyone has a pulpit...hundreds and hundreds of them. Let the other rage and despise....but you, just state your opinion/position, and go on to the next post...Don't take it , or yourself so seriously, and expect others to reject it; for sure many will...though also many will agree, and be with you.

The Truth has a way of defending itself, so we all should direct our thinking to the Word. Also, I may lose a blessing, as though everything may not line up in another's posts, but their paradigm wisdoms may reveal Christ in a new and blessed way to me. I have been blessed by many sisters and brothers in this way, who just share their HEARTS , often in the most simple ways...and Jesus comes out, and says.."I AM ".

"Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;"

This is a goal, so to speak, as we all must grow into it, as we learn to submit to Christ.....but I assure you...it is not about defending your idea about your own selfish dogma, or ideas about your self worth, that ultimately will offend or reject others..and end up wounding yourself.

Kind of like falling on your own sword.

These are good words, Tom... I know for me I need to adhere to these words more than I do.

Krispy

Hey Ginny Rose, this is Leeza, my username is now leepadah...hope this helps.

I liked Blaine very much. He has a zeal and sometimes it got the best of him. He is passionate and sometimes passionate men cannot dwell with the rest of the congregation, that is not sad that is just the way things are. The Apostles were that way, they thought it better to be alone with God and prayer than to wait on tables so they chose out men to take care of that. Jesus spent more time alone with His Father than He did with people. Perhaps that is where our Brother Blaine is at, or better yet, that is probably where God is bringing him to. I just wished that I had gotten his email, I would have liked to have kept in touch.

Afterthought, I better put this in before I am misunderstood. I am not saying that others here are not passionate. Some zeals are greater than others. So everyone is different in how God is revealing Himself, how He is moving them and how He is drawing them.

Dear ginnynrose, I just read post you had sent me about spiritual gifts. I had asked a general question about how you discover your gifts, cause i wanted to hear from you all how you did.
I never once suggested that I was not allowed to use my gifts, in fact I have never even had that thought. Never has even come up. I am not real sure why my question led you to believe I was dissatisfied or frustrated. in fact, my church is so open to all of the body being what God called us to be. Never have felt held back.
So, just wanted to hear what the people here have experienced in their ministries. I have served in one area for a long time and have felt lately that I have been less enabled, though God graciously blesses, I was wondering if He was easing me into another area. It was just a spontaneous question, cause you all seem pretty wise and experienced. At first, when I read your response, I thought you had me confused with someone else, it seemed so far from what I meant. :)

Leeza

Ginny I did not saynany of these things. Please explain You said I was bellyaching about not being able to use my gifts, and I never even suggested anything even remotely about that. In fact, I don't even know what that gift might be. I have always tended towards helps, so I had never even thought about gifts before. But I have become more aware of the work of the holy Spirit and wanted to learn about that. I don't think I can post hear anymore. Please
Look back at my post, I only asked how you can discover your spiritual gifts cause the test they have on the Internet seem more like personality test.
Love you, Ginny, just really confused.

Some zeals are greater than others.

I think that those with any "zeal" may have that different burden than others and may have a hard time accepting other's 'different' zeal that The LORD has laid on them.
Those who have any zeal/burden in these days are not all expected to have the same burden. There are different callings and differing gifts - but if we try to force others to have our same burden, than we've become proud of our zeal/burden/gift and put others down that don't carry the same GOD given load.
We need to let teachers be teachers, evangelists to be evangelists, intercessors to be intercessors and so forth. In other words - Make Room for each other's differing ministries.

Well, I give up. I have been shamed out I guess.
Love you all...God's best to you.
Leeza

I am not a charismatic, actually. I only asked how people discover their spiritual gifts. Just a question.

I sort of came here to fellowship and share ideas. I am so surprised by the shaming.

No, I think that would not be a good idea now. Love you. You all might want to be careful about assigning motives. It is real real spooky.

Here is what seemed confusing. Maybe this can help to see how assuming you know someone, how the live, can be harmful.
Here is the post (I am leeza)

""Ok, Leeza, I have not been following this thread very well...just reading here and there because of lack of time.

But your question, "but, how do you discover your spiritual gift"
.......To be bellyaching because a group of people will not allow me to use 'my gift' smacks of egotism, don't you think? On the opposite side of the coin, I would suggest if people do not appreciate what you want to do, look for some others who are needy and see how you can serve them! Likely you won't get win awards or be noticed by the powers that be, but that is the beauty of serving behind the scenes. You won't be encumbered with the praise of men!

ginnyrose""

I never even hinted at any of this....it is not about any of this, I just thought you all might have some wisdom about spiritual gifts and how to know if God is leading you in a new direction.

This is a post from a sister in this thread:

Well Blaine is now anonymous and I think we all need to be anonymous because on this forum that is really what we are. We really don’t know one another and we wouldn’t be so blunt to one another if we did. I don’t think on a forum such as this we should be accusing one another personally.

I think we should try to learn what each are trying to convey instead of jumping to attack them personally. We need to show kindness in why we may disagree and also being willing to see where they are coming from and even be open to God about learning, realizing that we don’t know everything. We also need to overlook character assassinations as ignorance and pray that it will stop.

----

That dear brother did leave the forums and asked me to delete his account therefore his anonymous profile. Really I do believe this is a subject that can be discussed in grace, love and kindness with others and it is a biblical topic. But sadly some of the people discussing in this thread have not been able to do so. As a moderator here I am asking if we can pray and consider the way we converse with others if its coming off wrong and being to accusatory or condemning. We need to prefer others before ourselves and in the church we need to esteem the LOWEST even better then the better members.

So may this be a personal challenge for all of us to encourage each other in this narrow way to life, when the world, flesh and devil are against us lets not have the church against us also. Let's be encouraging and strengthening each other in love. EDIFYING means to build up and may we not have the testimony of TEARING DOWN over our lives.

God is able to make us like Christ in this way and give us the fear of the Lord on how we use our tongues (typing) on this forums were all these words are read by 1000's and are before God also.

I feel this thread has reached its point of being fruitful and we ask saints not to personally accuse each other but stay discussing the topic at hand.

this thread is being locked.