Moderators....

I'm curious. Do you guys follow all the threads? I'm wondering why a person like "the Ephah" is allowed to continue to post as they are seeking to bring people back under the law. I understand people will see some scriptures differently, be he is perverting the gospel and what he/she is presenting is no gospel at all. Paul said that men like that were accursed. The whole book of Galatains was written to rebuke the Galatians for believing what people like "the Ephah" teach. If God through Paul sought to protect the believers from imposters who were seeking to bring the Galatians back under the law and into bondage, shouldn't you do the same? Not only has this person not been banned, but as far as I can see they haven't even been corrected or warned by a moderator.

I see that you just locked a thread where brethren were arguing... which is fine. But why take action against that and then let a false teach continue to infect the forums?

This forum certainly isn't a church, but I'm sure to some degree you will be held accountable for letting blatant heresys persist uncheck. (please think about this).

Sree... I dont think you understand what he was saying. You are responding to something that you said you have not read.

He is talking about someone who promotes obeying the law in order to acheive salvation. In other words, teaching that we are saved by what we do... added to what Christ did.

Thats not the gospel, but a perversion of the gospel.

It's what the Catholic Church, the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witness teaches. In fact, it's what ever false religious system teaches.

Krispy

That's correct. People like "the Ephah" teach that you are saved by faith in Jesus but then with that faith you must keep the Levitical law. Failure to do so means that you are in sin and lawless in Gods eyes. Therefore your salvation becomes a works based salvation on "works" Christ never commanded us to keep. To teach others what "the Ephah" teaches is to not understand the Gospel and pervert the true grace of God, bringing people back under bondage. This type of teaching usually led people to stop calling God "Lord" or using the name of Jesus. They see these as pagan. They also see the word "amen" as pagan. In the end, if you believe the true Gospel and uses names like Jesus or Lord, you are usually considered part of apostate Christianity.

Personally, I'd rather deal with a lawless "Christian" than a self deceived person who believes that their attempt to keep the Levitical law makes them right with God. With a lawless "Christian" you can show them what the word of God says about their sin and lifestyle. With "lawkeepers" you are dealing with men blinded by self righteousness.

I think the Admins have a tolerant level to which when reached they press the bounce button. I believe it's their hope that individuals that may appear to be causing trouble to learn something from others, and especially learn from the articles or sermons that are represented here. There is a threshold to which they have set and I think it's a godly thing that they wait and see what happens, not willing to throw a person out until all avenues have been explored. If their tolerance was low, there would hardly be anyone on the site at all, except syrupy people that are willing to please men and that is not what this site is all about, so that thought is not even entertained.

So in the meantime, lets pray for this man called, "the Ephah".

Sree, I agree with you! (Can you believe that?)

Seriously though, yes we are to obey the commands of God... What we are to do as believers in Christ is articulated in the NT. That’s not to say we throw out the OT, but the Law itself was fulfilled for us by Christ… wholly and completely. The freedom is that we don’t have to attempt to fulfill a law that was never intended to be fulfilled by us in the first place. The law was not given to prove our level of righteousness… but to show us our level of sinfulness… which is to the uttermost.

We live out the commands of Christ not to earn our salvation, but because of our salvation… as you pointed out. Because we are saved we are enabled to live by Jesus’ commands. If we have been saved by Him our hearts will be filled with gratefulness toward Him and our desire will be to honor Him through our obedience.

And if we do not have that desire in our hearts, and we either want to live by the Law in order to make sure we or saved… or we totally disregard the commands of the Lord… then we need to look at our hearts and seriously question whether we are saved at all.

APPROVED…. I can attest to the moderator’s patience.

Krispy

"There is a threshold to which they have set and I think it's a godly thing that they wait and see what happens, not willing to throw a person out until all avenues have been explored."

Did I miss a post where the mods attempted to correct and instruct this person about their false Gospel? Or, has this persons false teachings (exactly what Paul delt with in Galatians) gone unchecked? "the Ephah" isn't here to inquire about if the law should be followed, he/she is propagating that we are to follow the very law that Christ has fulfilled.

"I believe it's their hope that individuals that may appear to be causing trouble to learn something from others, and especially learn from the articles or sermons that are represented here."

Sure, but you don't have to be a member of the forums, preaching an accursed gospel, to listen to the sermons or read the articles.

Gandhi died as Hindu, who is now responsible for his souls?

According to scripture Gandhi is responsible for Gandhi's soul. Unfortunately there is no reason to believe that he put his faith in Christ, and he did indeed go to hell because of that... and he is to blame. No one else. Especially since he had heard the gospel.

I'm not saying it isnt possible for us to have blood on our hands, but ultimately the individual is responsible for themselves if they go to hell.

No one stands in anyone else's place on judgement day. All men will stand alone and answer to God individually.

According to scripture we shall be known by our fruit. If someone is living a wretched lifestyle then they are not exhibiting the fruits of the Spirit, which are:

love
joy
peace
patience
kindness
goodness
faithfulness
gentleness
self-control

We dont always exhibit these fruits all the time. I'm living proof of that. But if we live a lifestyle that is constantly producing the opposite fruit of these things... then the Bible declares that person to not even BE a Christian.

So this whole idea that Christians who live like the devil are giving other believers a bad name is a misnomer. I say that according to scripture they are not Christians. I say that without me personally judging their hearts. I am simply saying what the Bible says. “Such as these shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”

Legalism gets a little trickier. We all are actually more susceptible to legalism than we are carnality. Legalism is NOT the ardent keeping of the law in itself. Legalism is in our hearts… it’s believing that we are doing something that is going to make God give us salvation. It’s earning our salvation, in our minds.

The Bible also teaches that if someone is trusting in ANYTHING else other than Jesus for our salvation… we are not saved. We are depending on ourselves, and basically putting ourselves on a higher throne than God is on. That is why it is critical when someone claims that we need to obey the Mosaic Law in order to be saved.

Again, this is not me judging people, I am simply stating what the Bible teaches. I don’t go around declaring people unsaved, however if we see someone who blasphemes the name of the Lord by the lifestyle then we need to believe what scripture says because their salvation is suspect.

Krispy

The answer to your question is that the power of the gospel transcends the person who is presenting it. None of us are perfect... so if it takes a perfectly sinless person to present the gospel in order for someone to get saved... we are all doomed.

Krispy

One thing I have learned about you is that we have to go back and forth a little bit to get to an understanding. There is obviously a language issue... and thats ok! It just takes a little more work.

I understand what you are saying now, and I agree. One can not stand there and preach the Word of God with a cigarette in one hand and a beer in the other.

By the same token, part of my witness is that it's quite obvious to most that I am a fallen sinner saved by grace. Unlike the example you gave of a divorced man tho, the difference is I do not excuse my failings. God has shown me that my failings are not excusable... and as I grow in his grace He teaches me and helps me to overcome them... and not live in them as if it were ok.

Is this what you are saying?

Krispy

I think the Admins have a tolerant level to which when reached they press the bounce button. I believe it's their hope that individuals that may appear to be causing trouble to learn something from others, and especially learn from the articles or sermons that are represented here. There is a threshold to which they have set and I think it's a godly thing that they wait and see what happens, not willing to throw a person out until all avenues have been explored. If their tolerance was low, there would hardly be anyone on the site at all, except syrupy people that are willing to please men and that is not what this site is all about, so that thought is not even entertained.

So in the meantime, lets pray for this man called, "the Ephah".

Dear Brother, you said it very well and this is really our heart in moderating the forums.

Jeremy puts it best in practical advice for all of us of any posts that we disagree with or feel are false to just leave them alone and not post to them:

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On our part I would say that if we know that someone is not willing to hear sound doctrine the best thing to do is to ignore their posts. If there is no audience for them they usually go away on their own.

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Please brothers and sisters, pray for people on these forums, think of others before yourselves. Be teachable and humble. And in regards to false teaching share that with the moderators, we cannot read every single post or at least read them timely so please share any obvious errors like teachers that teach keeping levitical laws to be saved. Any simple born again Christian knows that is wrong and we do not condone or accept this on SI.

But to leave a thread and not lock it does not mean we accept this as truth, we want to give everything a chance to learn and grow in the New Convenant truths of Jesus Christ and to be free from errors and legalism. We also do not allow debating of calvinism and armianism, we have found after 10 years of running this forum that these debates do not produce fruit or obedience in Christian walks. We respect people of both opinions and the audio sermons available reflect this.

If you committed to praying for that individual before the Lord daily for a period of time it would be interesting to see what would happen.

I am saying that we should never accept our life like 'this is how I am destined to be' and there is no scope of Improvement etc. I believe all Christians should have an attitude like Paul, who said, Philippians 4-I can do all things through him who gives me strength.
We should never accept that well I will get angry sometimes, I can never stop lusting etc. I agree that we are born with it in our flesh but Jesus came to save us from this and that is why he has given his spirit to us.

I am not saying we should be perfect, that is long way from here, but at least with things that we know we should believe that we will get delivered from it.

Regarding my English if you see me speak you will never doubt my skills, I type very fast and my proof reading skills are very poor. That is why I cannot find mistakes in what I type. I apologize for that inconvenience.

Sree... I agree with what you said. :-)

As for the language comment, please dont be insulted as I was not trying to do that. I was just acknowledging that sometimes you and I have to work a little harder to understand each other, and thats ok! It's not how you speak (or write)... we just have different ways of sometimes saying the same things.

Krispy

"We also do not allow debating of calvinism and armianism, we have found after 10 years of running this forum that these debates do not produce fruit or obedience in Christian walks."

With all due respect brother Greg, I say this with as much meekness and gentleness as I can (and if I could send you a private PM on this I would).. But since instituting this rule, you yourself have violated it and posted articles that speak to the these very subjects. How can you hold others to a standard that you have not held yourself too? If you've repented of the double standard, that's one thing.. but if you haven't.......???

Sure I understand Hulsey. That's not what I'm talking about though.

If I was to post an article by a Calvinist that explains some aspect of Tulip and why the other understanding if false (or an Arminian artilce vise-versa), the thread would be lock. Yet these "type" of articles have been posted before by Greg since the instituting of this rule.

I commented about it in the past on one of the articles, but it was just brushed off. Anyway, just hoping the standard is universal if there is going to be one..... We lose credibility when it's not.

"What is not helpful is to go off calling people names such as heretic and liar and such. That is immoderate behavior. To do so often gives the person the notion that they are actually WINNING the 'debate' because the other person is resorting to emotional responses."

Robert, what do you call someone who propagates that one must keep the Levitical Law, the Sabbath, the Feast Days etc... to be right with God? Not just once, but over and over and over again. What did Paul say about them in Galatians? Was Paul out of line to write his letter in the tone and content of what he said? Was he just emotional? I can't see instances in which Paul let me like that just hang around in hopes that they would learn something. He sought to shut their mouths and warn the believers so that they didn't get deceived by men seeking to bring people back under that law.

Here's the danger. You have someone come on SermonIndex and starting a thread titled "Abandoned by God". Someone is needing help. Then you have theEphah telling this person they need to repent for not keeping the law (All the Law), and that they need to call God only Yahweh and that they should never use the word Amen (because they feel it's pagan in origin). If you all feel it's ok, then ultimately that's how the forums will operate. I personally feel that the immoderate and reckless behavior is not the calling out of false teaches, but instead is the attitude that allows these men to prevail and continue to spread their false teaching and influence others.

There is definitely a place for being moderate in our discussions. I think the whole Cal/Arm discussion is a great example of where patience, grace, and long suffering should be extended. However, can it be said that the same grace should be given to one seeking to bring people back under the law as a form of righteousness and right standing with God?

Anyway, I leave my comments about the Judaizer at that. Please just consider that God may be trying to show you something through all of this.

(by the way, in another post you mentioned me being new to the forums. I've actually been around for years. My other account had hundreds of post over many years.)

Here's the danger. You have someone come on SermonIndex and starting a thread titled "Abandoned by God". Someone is needing help. Then you have theEphah telling this person they need to repent for not keeping the law (All the Law), and that they need to call God only Yahweh and that they should never use the word Amen (because they feel it's pagan in origin). If you all feel it's ok, then ultimately that's how the forums will operate. I personally feel that the immoderate and reckless behavior is not the calling out of false teaches, but instead is the attitude that allows these men to prevail and continue to spread their false teaching and influence others.

Quite true, this. Paul didn't stand for it in his day. I'm rather shocked that we do.

I really dont want to get involved in this conversation, but I just wanted to quickly comment on this:

The difference is that Paul was dealing with the church at Galatia and we are having a discussion in a public forum (albeit Christian).

Yes... and no. Yes, Pauls words were immediately addressed to a specific church. But there is a very public dimension to what he was saying. At least in a church setting the heretic has a limited number of people which his teachings will effect. Here it is very much public and world-wide. Not addressing something that is blatantly false is potentially much more dangerous.

It is my understanding of this scripture that Paul was not just instructing local churches on how to deal with a heretic. If that were the case then there would be no presidence for how to deal with a famous heretic (pick one on TBN) in a public forum. Pauls warnings and scoldings of heretics was very public and he named names so there was no mistaking who they were that he was talking about.

Krispy

Here's the post by theEphah:

Now here is your solution, When you pray, Pray to YAHWEH, call him by his name. It means self existance. One who creates something out of nothing. He is not a god. Lucifer is a god and so is her little demonic buddies. That's where the term godworship came from.

Secondly, don't go straight to the Creator, go through his Son first, (you know, the one who died for us?) his name is Yahshua Messiah, our King and High Priest. He is our mediator, acknowledge him by taking your prayers to him first, then ask Him to send you prayers to Yahweh on your behalf. In your prayer, ask for forgiveness from breaking his laws and commandments, this shows total submission and humility, then ask him to deliver you from this sin sick world.

End your prayer with Hallelu-Yahweh or Praise Yahweh. Whatever you do, don't ever end your prayer with the word amen. Never!

Please Note: The word lord is a title and was meant for men, don't use it. I know the Christians are going to cry foul, that's ok, don't let that deter you. If they were doing the right thing, we wouldn't be in this mess we're in to begin with.

This isn't quite "Judaism" - this is something beyond the ordinary. Even Orthodox Jews say "Amen" -- it's in the O.T. Hebrew 27 times = אמן.

The funny thing is, first he says to pray to Yahweh - then, don't pray directly to "the creator" but to "Yahshua", asking Him to send your prayers to Yahweh.
Confusing, isn't it? Jesus said - "Pray, Our Father Who art in Heaven ....." but Ephah says pray to Jesus.
Doesn't matter Whom you address actually - as long as Ephah knows that Jesus 'is' GOD and equally "the creator".

I don't think this is a Moderators problem -- I think the Members can handle this stuff.
On one forum that I view - the Mods say - "Thanks for moderating with us, because we can't be everywhere at once."
I think we can handle anyone that comes on with error, by using His Word. It's good spiritual exercise to dig into the Word to defend it and a good way to sharpen our ability of how to correct in love. We all need help on that one.

But theEphah likes attention and he's probably loving this thread and as two of the Moderators said on this thread, that when we give them the 'wrong' type of attention, it just seems to strengthens them to believe they're being persecuted for their correctness.
The way Ephah comes against "Christians" by that name "Christians", I think it's been rather obvious, even to a babe in Christ, that the man has stuff against "Christians".

We can handle error. Only those that are verbally crude, lewd or abusive do we need help with - but I really do believe that this man is 'looking for' negative attention and that's sort of quirky -- why he wouldn't just stick with forums that believe as he does - where there's no "Christians".

Maybe theEphah should come on this thread and answer these things himself.

But since instituting this rule, you yourself have violated it and posted articles that speak of these very subjects.

There is a difference.

We can all post on this subject the problem is how it plays out every time, division.

What Greg has said basically, "don't start threads for the purpose of discussing these subjects".

Now within non calvinistic threads there will be moments where this subject will be brought up and people will discuss it, however, it's not the main theme. Threads have been hijacked though and had to be locked. But it's not a hardcore rule not to discuss it within a non cal/arm thread that may sometimes border on what the subject is being discussed, just don't start a Cal/Arm thread.

I hate to speak for the brother, but that is how I am interpreting how he desires for the SI forums to go regarding these themes.

The difference is that Paul was dealing with the church at Galatia and we are having a discussion in a public forum (albeit Christian).

Paul emailed his letter to www.galatianchurch.anno.domini.org the only difference is technology. He treated his letters as if he was right there with them, and they didn't have a Church building like we have, they met from house to house, like we are to doing right now.

My house your house we are meeting together in one place on this forum or wherever we meet with others online, wires, wireless technology connects us in this age. We break bread together, we admonish one another, we care, we pray, wii play (had to throw that in he-he), we are a Church here in cyberspace. Yes, SI has declared itself not a Church, but in all actuality we are very much like that. When we define Church we will discover that it's where two or three are gathered together in His name. Basic as it is, it's the elementries of our faith.

I do see how SI defines it's site and not a Church, and I accept that but in my mind we are because the Saints meet here.

Concerning theEphah and his aberration of faith.

"For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."

I must agree with JesusIsGod here, in that most of us are certainly strong enough in our gospel foundations to absorb , with kindness, the benign unbeliever, with hope that a true light may be shed through the posts here to minister salvation to him or her.

However, the line must be drawn, in my view, when the seeker proves he is no seeker at all, but a seller; a devourer. Then, conflict and division must follow.

As I see it, the moderators have exhibited a strong measure of tolerance permitting many to come to that red line of the ban, perhaps in hope that Christ would be further revealed to them as they wander, and yet at some point, must reject them, according to the Word.

"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

"A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;"

"Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself."

Heretic means divider. Most are warned, as I have witnessed, with gentle exhortations from the moderators, and then rejected....for you cannot have order and peace with such, even, or especially on a discussion forum. They must be rooted out, and banned.

The moderators are much more tolerant than me, and you could not pay me to do their job.

Concerning the CAL/ARM war...My opinion....Let them fight it out, with the understanding that the display of bitter and hateful accusation, you must leave; banned for a season or more. This would tone down the angry rhetoric.

Another note: Do you realize that Satan does hate SI, because of the Word that flows from here? It is true, and he sends his agents here, often, to sow discord among the brothers. [ some conscience of it, some not ].

This site is not, nor cannot be a democracy. The peace of God must rule, under the umbrella of the Word of God, the Bible. The Spirit and the Word agree. Overall, it is ran very well. Consider, that anyone...anyone in the world with an Internet connection can sign up; well that's quite a feat, Eh?

Two things are written over the Body of Christ.

"FREEDOM AND BRETHREN"

As is often suggested, it might indeed be true that at times immaturity is behind the ill manners towards one another, and one could feel justified pulling the "pride" card on somebody. It's a quick tool in our arsenal. Yet I suggest another possibility: limitations in our ability to hear another, to think through things, appreciate another perspective, and to articulate clearly enough. Sometimes valid points get lost simply for lack of this - not because of "pride" or "rebellious spirits".

Dear sister, I feel what you shared here really sums up the problem behind all of this. Are we teachable in our spirit, have we come to the forums to learn from others or just to steamroll over others with our ideas. The internet is a great tool and has given freedom of expression and thought but that has a very dangerous side to it that anyone can just start speaking their mind which sometime is very useless to real and spend time reviewing. Such an epedemic of people judging other things, speaking their minds and letting their tongues flap in this way allows sin to be rampant and many hurts are caused along the way.

Though this allows for people to express themselves and greater communication to happen across national, denominational lines, the great problem is still in an individual who really should not be teaching starts to teach. A heretical person who is diligent to post has an audience of 100's. If someone is anointed by God then the people will reconize that and listen to him, but sadly blogs and other tools make it so anyone can be sort of reconized to a measure. There as I have stated is a good and bad to this.

May we count it a privildge to be involved in a public forum that is so closely associated with the best preaching in the last 100+ years. We should also be aware that are writing is seen by many nations of the world and many witness in the world, saved and unsaved. I would also consider this booklet for the members of the forum to read:

Touching Godliness Through Submission by K.P. Yohannan
https://www.sermonindex.net/pdf/touchinggodlinessbykpyohannan.pdf

At SermonIndex we are not looking for mindless followers but we do want to perserve the unity of the spirit at all costs. And to minimize backbiting, debating and arguing for the sake of Christ and His body. Also for some who feel that the forums are unfair or biased according to the moderators that is true to some measure, we are trying to guide the forums in a specific way for the edification of all and for the purpose of this site. We do hope the discussions lead more to practical christianity and holiness of life and not arguing about calvinism or other topics as such that we are mentioned.

We ask for your prayers for the website, moderators and all involved. And if you have a desire to be active in the forums we ask you take this task in humility. All of the moderators including myself feel this responsibility and are here to serve you and help see these forums be fruitful and a blessing to many.

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Below each post we see this paragraph of text that we are so prone to just skip over and press the submit button, may some of us read it afresh today and even look up the references to help us have a more Christ-like attitude in posting. I love you all saints and thank you for your prayers.

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\tThe site moderators ask you before you post that you consider praying and ask the Lord if you have the right spirit to serve others in the body of Christ before posting and pressing the submit button. Please also look at these scriptures: Matthew 12:36, James 1:26, Colossians 4:6.

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we are locking this thread and recommending that any specific people who have serious problems with how the forums are being run to contact me personally sermonindex@gmail.com or one of the moderators.

God bless.