There Was No Pre-Tribulation Rapture! When is Jesus Coming Back?

There Was No Pre-Tribulation Rapture! When is Jesus Coming Back?
by Skydiver626

He is very explicit in his describing of the time of events and I have never heard it quite this way before! The video is for 'after' the abomination of the desolation' has come forth and Christians find themselves still here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeFc_csTI1I&feature=g-all-u&context=G2642b0dFAAAAAAAACAA

give it a watch and see what you think... does it challenge your belief in a pre-trib rapture of the church?

And another question for those who believe in the pre-trib... after all the events that have been unfolding in the last three years, has these things shaken your belief in it?

God bless us all!!
Lisa

PS: For those who like to read, he has a book on amazon called "Changed" by Steven Straub. It's about being pre-trib believer and being changed forever.

give it a watch and see what you think... does it challenge your belief in a pre-trib rapture of the church?

No.

And another question for those who believe in the pre-trib... after all the events that have been unfolding in the last three years, has these things shaken your belief in it?

No.

Personally, I am not worried about it. My faith is in Christ Jesus and so, as David Wilkerson used to say, we can be "pan-trib" -- because it will all "pan out" in the end. If your faith is firm in Christ Jesus you cannot be shaken no matter how the end will come.

As I have said in the past, I am open to the possibility that there may not be a "rapture" before the period of God's wrath.

From the preponderance of the evidence, I still lean to a very distinct possibility that the Lord will gather the saints BEFORE God's wrath is poured out upon this entire world (or else, He will protect us from His own wrath since we are not appointed to it).

However, I wonder how many people are open to the possibility that there could be one.

With this, I think that it is important to know ALL possible scenarios if we feel intent on studying eschatology. Keith Green used to say that we should pray for pre-trib but prepare for post-trib. I think that this is wise. However, the only true preparation that makes any spiritual sense is to walk with God no matter what.

I just don't think that the Lord intended for believers to become distracted by trying to "figure out" just how the end will come. I knew a guy who passed away last year who spent his life trying to figure it all out. He went from pre-trib to post-trib and then back to pre-trib. Ultimately, it didn't really matter for him at all. He departed this world before any of it took place.

Chris wrote:
"However, the only true preparation that makes any spiritual sense is to walk with God no matter what."

I have come to this same conclusion in my study of Revelation.

My opinion is that it is westerners who hold to such a high hope of escaping severe tribulations. We live in relative security and prosperity. We can practice any religion or no religion, whatever you want with no coercion from the civil authorities. We do not want anyone to rock the boat, least of all upset it and surely God will prevent THAT from happening!

But. But what about those peoples who do suffer NOW? Those in Muslim dominated countries? Are we or they in any tribulation now? We may say 'yes' or 'no', depending on your definition of tribulation. Do they experience beheadings? (Yes.) Are they limited in their ability to buy or sell? Is a mark required to carry on business? Perhaps this is the defining point in what constitutes tribulation?

In any case, people have no control over the beast...what we do have control over is our response to it and any other evil we encounter. To this end let us be faithful, as Chris said. And it all begins in how well deal with sin and temptation in life NOW.

hi Lysa,
Thanks for the link,I am slow on the uptake but I will watch it a couple more times.
I dont believe in imminency in the sense that Jesus could come at any time in history so I dont believe in pre trib.
However I dont believe in the postrib rapture as in Matthew it says-
Matt 24.36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;
It is clear from this scripture and from the "Lot Example" that when Jesus comes the people are marrying etc the world is carrying on as normal and earth is clearly not in turmoil.
If the last 3.5yrs of Daniels Wk God pouring out his wrath then Matt 24.38 can happen after Daniels 3.5 yrs as the world is not in turmoil everything is normal.
Yours Staff

Hi Ephah,
The two examples of Noah and Lot are given and clearly without doubt paint a picture of a world that is not in tribulation prior to Jesus Return.
"It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building.
There is nothing wrong with any of the activities mentioned.
What Jesus is clearly saying is the world will be going on as normal(not in tribulation)
If Jesus wanted to highlight turmoil he would have used different examples.
These Scripture are as clear an example as could be given and should not be twisted to fit a Christian theory.
Their hasnt been a time when war or murder has not existed after Cain and Abel,this will continue but that isnt what the great tribulation is about.
Their is no doubt that this is an evil generation when a guy gets shot in a club and the party continues as you say,
Yours Staff

The Lord (the Blessed Hope) has already come to me and my hope now, is to stand before Him face to face and hear, "Well, done ...".

Has He "appeared" to you?

The only thing that matters on planet earth is the here and now.

James 1:12
12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Pilgrim

Titus 2:11-13
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Hi Ginnyrose,
I agree with your points on,a walk with God,christians are in tribulation in Muslim countries and perhaps it is westerners that have a high hope of avoiding revelation.
However we are not talking about tribulation but the Great Tribulation and on whether Jesus returns before or after it.It is what scripture says about this that is deciding factor not whether westerners desire to escape tribulation more than other christians.Whether westerners want to escape tribulation has no effect on whether it is pre or post.Their will always be tribulation which may include killings and inability to buy and sell but these are not the Great Tribulation.We dont need to have a definition on what tribulation is but we do need to define the difference between tribulation and the Great Tribulation.
Jesus doesnt return before or after tribulation but before or after the Great Tribulation.
Yours Staff

Hi Approved,

I really don't know what it is that you are trying to say here.

"Why is there this need to pour out any wrath?"

This is a question for God since the wrath that will come is from Him who sits on the Throne.

"Was not the blood of Christ sufficient?"

This almost sounds like a directional or ambiguous question. Sufficient...for what exactly? Of course it is immeasurably sufficient for what it was meant to suffice.

Still, I don't understand what it is that you are trying to get at.

"What good would the Everlasting gospel be to those in heaven seeing that the gospel is for the unrighteous, not for the righteous?"

Again, I don't understand what you mean by this. Of course the everlasting Gospel is good. It is literally the "good news" for those who are lost. Those who "see" earthly events transpire from Eternity have already had their eternal fates sealed. Their "good news" has been realized in the timelessness of Eternity.

"sigh...oh well.."

I'm not entirely sure what you are asking...or what it has to do with this topic. However, I would be pleased to address what it is that you are trying to address (if I can) if I better understand what you are saying.

Thanks, brother!

I did not want this to be a debate about pre-trib VS post-trib; everybody on here knows how everyone believes and that's not what the video is about.

I've read the responses and it doesn't seem that one person has watched the video and responded to my question:

give it a watch and see what you think... does it challenge your belief in a pre-trib rapture of the church?

The video uses scripture to back up a 45 day period that skydiver626 believes is when Christ can (and he believes will) return! That's what I wanted to see if that changed your pre-trib belief.

Please do not even respond to the supposed 45 day period without viewing the video so you at least know what we are talking about. If you don't want to view it, then that is cool too!

God bless,
Lisa

hi, i have studied all this for 48 years and find that we know as much as the pharisees knew about Jesus coming in Bethlehem as the Messiah. very little...jimp

Because there has been great tribulation in every century since the resurrection the surest and safest thing is to be found in Him. Looking unto Jesus the Author and Finisher of your faith. He is the Blessed Hope that you are walking with, NOW!

And He is our Better Hope, too.

Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

One of the elders asks John if he knows who these people in the multitude are and from whence they have come (7:13). John defers the answer, saying, 'My lord, you know," so the elder proceeds to identify them. "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (7:14). The "great tribulation" is not necessarily a designated title for a particular seven year period which some expect to take place in the future. Christians in every age have suffered from the "great tribulation" of living "in the world," facing the hostility of Satan's "world-system" and its religious "front", and the constant tribulations of life. Jesus told His followers, "In the world you have tribulation" (John 16:33). Paul explained, "Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22). John had already indicated that he was a "fellow-partaker in the tribulation" (1:9).

Pilgrim

hi, fyi afew have been dropped 57 years ago and it has been a wonderful deterrent for the sane.i am so glad so many have this all figured out. in dan.2 it says in explaining to the king daniel said at the last (in the days of the ten toes...in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed;and the kingdom shall not be left to other people,but it shall brake into piecesand consume all of these kingdoms,and it shall stand forever.let us consider this verse which is at the center of the beginning of eschatology.jimp

There have been many great tribulations and in their respective generations who would be foolish enough to argue that my "great tribulation" was greater than yours?

If you have not studied the Dark Ages you may want to have a look. But, you don't have to go back that far. Just look around today. Two thirds of Christians in the world are in the midst of "great" tribulation, now. A Pakistani women in our fellowship had acid thrown on her face by her suitor because she would not abandon Christ. Her face melted. I don't think she can conceive of a "greater" tribulation.

God's Word is timeless and at the same time, relevant for every generation.

Pilgrim

Hi Lysa,
I want to try and answer the question you asked rather than a post pre discussion.I looked at the video again.
I noticed he used both 1260days as 3.5 years and 1290days as 3.5yrs whether this makes a difference to his 45days I dont know.
I dont think this would change Pre trib view as most pre tribbers I know believe in a rapture and a 2nd coming.This 45day to them if correct would be seen as the 2nd coming.
If the 2nd half of Daniel's 70th week is quite and peaceful(like today,some wars,sin etc) rather than apocalyptic then the rapture could be in that 45 day period.
If the 2nd half of Daniels 70th wk is apocalyptic with the world in its worst time ever known then the Rapture can not be in that 45 day period as Jesus clearly points out.The rapture comes after a relatively peaceful time.
I didnt see in the video where he addressed the the rapture and the 2nd coming so I dont think it would change the pre trib view,
Yours Staff

I watched the video carefully and attentively. Personally, I lean very heavily towards a pre-tribulation rapture. Did the video challenge me in my thinking? No. It didn't give any information to challenge the pre-trib belief. The video was made in the hypothetical situation that the world has entered into the tribulation period; that the pre-trib rapture that many were expecting didn't happen and that those folks are now scared and don't know what to think.

Frankly, I found that a bit condescending. Why would he assume that, in the case of a post-trib scenario, everyone who once held to the pre-trib theory would suddenly become stupid and run around without a clue as to what's going on? That's actually more revealing about what HE thinks of those who currently believe in a pre-trib rapture. Those I know who are also pre-trib believers are nothing like that. In the case that the post-trib theory is true, pre-tribbers are still going to know what to expect and not worship the beast or take his mark.

So, no, it didn't challenge my views of a pre-trib rapture. Whatever the true eschatological facts are, no one can say with certainty because God has seen fit to keep this hidden as one of His mysteries. No one can say they've studied, prayed, fasted and heard a definite answer from God that the viewpoint they arrived at is THE correct one. What's important is to keep watching, hoping and expecting Jesus to come at any time. But, to also keep living our lives as if we have the whole of them to live out. We are to remain watchful but continue the work that He gave us to do and complete it for His glory only.

Now, regarding the 45 day window that the creator of the video is talking about, I have to say that I agree with him. I believe there is a window of time for Christians during that time in history to expect Jesus to return in. (Just like they waited, expectantly, in the upper room in the book of Acts.) It's just that, to pre-trib believers, that's known as the second coming of Christ, not the rapture. Once the tribulation period begins, it's very simple to narrow down the time of the second coming based on the timeline and events described in Revelation. It will be the blessed hope of those who endure the tribulation period.

The history of the pre-trib rapture seems to start with Margaret MacDonald in 1830. Here is what I find. Is there anything documented before this?

1. Margaret MacDonald (1830) - personal prophecy in Glasgow
2. Edward Irving (1832) - Scottish charismatic preacher
3. John Nelson Darby - Irish lawyer and Plymouth Brethren leader
4. James H. Brookes - American Presbyterian preacher
5. Dwight L. Moody - Moody Bible Institute
6. C.I. Scofield - Scofield Bible
7. Dallas Theological Seminary (Chafer, Ironside, Ryrie, Walvoord)
8. Hal Lindsey - Late, Great Planet Earth
9. Popular interpretation of fundamentalist evangelicals

Pilgrim

Lysa requested that this thread not be turned into a post and pre-trib debate so I won't get into that. I am not a debater anyway. I see no value in online debating because I've never seen one that was fruitful. Even if an online debate helps one person, it has the potential to confuse and repel many others. Each person is free to come to their own conclusion regarding this mystery of God.

However, when it comes to the tiring myth that Margaret MacDonald invented the rapture, it's not only false, but incredibly preposterous.

So, I am not debating/defending the pre-trib rapture. I am debunking the Margaret MacDonald inventing the rapture myth.

History shows that the rapture theory has been preached since 150 AD. Here's some of that history...

In 150 AD, the Rapture idea was preached by the Shepherd of Hermas.
In 270 AD, Victorinus, the Bishop of Pettau, a Catholic leader preached it.
In 350 AD, Ephraim the Syrian
In 400 AD, Jerome in the Latin vulgate (in the Catholic Bible)

Then there were the 1,000 years of the dark ages, and then it came back.

In 1304 AD, Reverend Dolcino proclaimed the Pre-trib Rapture.
In 1400 AD, Bible translations in the native tongues led to a new propagation of the Pre-trib Rapture.
In 1627 AD, Joseph Mede
1627 AD Increase Mather
1687 AD, Peter Jurieu
1700 AD, John Asgill
1738 AD, Philip Doddridge
1748 AD, John Gill
1763 AD, James McKnight
1744 AD, Morgan Edwards
1792 AD, Thomas Scott
And then in 1830 AD, John Darby.

Belligerent post-tribbers (those who care only about being "right") waiver back and forth as to whom "invented the rapture" theory. (And, to be fair, there are just as many belligerent pre-tribbers.) Some say it was John Darby and some say it was Margaret MacDonald. Their research is very clearly one-sided as well as limited in history and limited to their own viewpoint.

The problem with that is that history is not the authority, the scriptures are. History only shows what happened, or, in this case, what and when the rapture theory was taught. What matters is only what scripture teaches. Many Christians lean different ways and I think that's okay. None of us knows for certain because, as I said, it's a mystery of God that He's not seen fit to clarify.

Hey there SimpleLiving,

Thanks for the info. I am neither pre nor post, and I don't call anyone belligerent. As the saying goes, "I have no horse in this race". But, I have always been interested in Church History. I do note your 15 references for the last 2,000 years and appreciate them. I came across this info and had not seen or even knew about yours. You gave general references so I will look for more specific info based on what you gave.

Thanks again,
Pilgrim

Now, regarding the 45 day window that the creator of the video is talking about, I have to say that I agree with him. I believe there is a window of time for Christians during that time in history to expect Jesus to return in. (Just like they waited, expectantly, in the upper room in the book of Acts.)

To be honest, I used to be pre-trib and almost 20 yrs ago turned into a die-hard post-tribber (you'll find threads with me arguing in them for it!!)... UNTIL a couple of yrs ago the Lord showed me that there were many on both sides of the camp who are dead and buried who never saw their beliefs come to fruition; but sadly, both sides left behind them a wake of hurt feelings and argumentativeness. (Edit: Their legacy is not their love of Christ but of argumentativeness)

And I need to be careful because I find myself leaning toward post-trib more times than not (an example is my first post, I could have worded it differently so it wouldn't have introduced people to take sides),so I apologize for that.

Finally, I'm inclined to believe that both sides are right because both sides clearly have scriptures backing them up (just like the Calvinists and Arminians!) and we, mere human beings, can't see it because we like to pick a camp and die in it!! God have mercy on us so we can all get along!

God bless,
Lisa

Amen, Krispy. Just be ready to be called home.

I find this all very confusing anyway for several reasons including the unspoken messages that this teaching and others presents to people.

Even within the premillennialist's camp there are varying opinions of the time of rapture.
1. Pre-tribulation rapture
2. Mid-tribulation rapture
3. Pre-wrath rapture
4. Post-tribulation rapture
5. Partial tribulation - faithful remnant of Christians removed at beginning of tribulation; others removed later

I never could figure out if it was a two-phase second-coming or not (that would imply a 3rd coming). I don't think there is an adequate basis for a two-phase Second Coming, as "caught up," "meet," descend" seem to be the same time period followed by final judgment.

In addition, I don't see an adequate basis in the Bible for imminency or a silent or secret coming where the Saints invisibly disappear. I thought the Lord returns with a shout and a trumpet. His return will be public and visible.

Having watched this debate for over 30 years I have also observed that it causes great divisiveness and intolerance with one another. Simple Living called people on both sides belligerent. He could have been right on. I would say that a spirit of arrogance and pride have definitely infiltrated all camps on this issue as each camp strives to be superior to the others.

The effects that I have witnessed are Christian's with escapist mentality who avoid and withdraw from society. They are disengaged from society and oftentimes develop a negative attitude towards society. The other danger and this happened in China as witnessed by Corrie Ten Boom is that the Church was unprepared for the coming persecution by Mao Tse Tung as the Pre-Trib Rapture teaching was exported to the church in China.

This was a good discussion and Corrie's testimony is on the first page. GinnyRose also brought out that Holland was taught about the Rapture (per Corrie).
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=39810&forum=48&start=30&viewmode=flat&order=1

We just have to be careful about false teachers spreading teachings of false security. We can't stop them from doing that, but we don't have to listen to them. According to SimpleLiving, we now have 1800 years of this teaching of the pre-trib Rapture and a lot of tribulation has taken place since SimpleLiving says it was first recorded preached in 150 AD.

Let's not make the mistake the Thessalonians made.

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (2 Thessalonians 2:1-5)

Jesus says to "Occupy till I come". Be engaged! Don't disengage and withdraw from society. I have seen this taught to children and they have no ambition or goals or visions. The fire has been snuffed out of them. They don't want to excel in any areas of their lives, or pursue any type of education. Their attitude is "what's the use, as soon as Iran invades Israel, we're outta here, anyway". Well, for the last 1,800 years this doctrine has supposedly been taught, many, many wars, persecution and tribulations later, it has not happened, yet.

Live for Jesus, live your life to the fullest and reject a "me versus them" mentality.

Pilgrim

Lysa,
I looked at the video and just as for the other posters, it didn’t change my views. Of course none of us approached it with a blank mind - but from our “presets”. But one “preset” we may overlook is our 20th century scientifically shaped way of thinking. We decode apocalyptic literature like Revelation through our own mental framework, with little awareness of a first century reader’s way of seeing it. But it is also prophetic material and so requires a spiritual outlook that comes through God’s Spirit – not our natural rationalities.

Apocalyptic language is obviously highly allegorical and figurative. Spiritual realties are painted with natural images and numerical symbols. It's not a linear time line like our scientific graphs.

I do not believe that the apocalyptic literature like Revelation was reserved for us clever modern people to decode. It was to be an encouragement for the early churches – that they may keep their eyes on Jesus Christ. And even in its futuristic outlook, it was surely not intended to leave out the entire first 2 millennia of the Church’s history – and somehow only apply to us (shortly).

Pilgrim pointed out that horrendous tribulations have afflicted God’s people over the centuries. I believe Revelation represents it all as one collective entity. And that is GREAT indeed! We can’t under estimate the intensity of ongoing suffering by pointing to something “worse”. We wouldn’t want to overlook our suffering brothers and sisters right now by becoming preoccupied with some imagined future time of suffering.

On an unrelated point: Jesus’s reference to Noah’s flood in Matt. 24 was mentioned. What intrigues me is that those taken away refer to the unbelievers who perished in the flood, and yet, as I have been taught, in the next verse the ones taken away are not the unbelievers, but the ones “raptured”. Strange twist, is it not?

Diane

Oh my, Krispy, I have not heard that name in a while. And his wife - what's here name Druzilla, Rexilla? Something like that.

Thank you for this other manifestation of the Rapture doctrine. Date Setters!!

Have you seen the latest dates?

http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/y2k/bible_ca.htm

By the way, Van Impe said that 2001 was the Beginning of the Millennium, not the end of the world, 1000yrs yet to go. Jack Van Impe; TV show: JVI Presents week of 1-15-1995l; Rather Vague but cites Jewish Catholic and Christians as well as Notradamus.

You know he is onto something when he cites Nostradamus.

2007 End of world; Implied in Hal Lindsay's revision. 1st said 1948+40=1988; Later Israel did not have land until 1967 War; 1967+40=2007; Rapture seven years earlier. Also now says generation from 60-80 yrs. Puts it also at 2040, 2047

2010 or 2012

"discontinuous event coming -- they peg it to the date 2010 or 2012" Scott Mandelker, who claims to have an ET soul; (from CNI News Vol. 3 No. 13, Part 2, an email newsletter)

2012

New Age writers cite Mayan and Aztec calendars which predict the end of the age on Dec 21, 2012.

2012:

Michael Drosnin, author of "The Bible Code," found a hidden message in the Pentateuch (the first five books in the Bible) that predicts that a comet will crash into the earth in 2012 and annihilate all life.

2012-DEC-22:

The Mayan calendar has many divisions of time: months of 20 days, years of 360 days, katun of 7200 days and a baktun of 144,000 days. Their calendar started on 3114-AUG-13 BCE with the birth of Venus. They expected the world to last for exactly 13 baktun cycles. They anticipated the end of the world near the Winter Solstice of 2012. (3)

2016

An article in Weekly World News describes a find by a Professor Lloyd Cunningdale of Salt Lake City who was excavating with his students at the site of the famous Donner party disaster of 1847. The latter were a group of settlers bound for California who became trapped by snow in the Sierra Nevada Mountains. Cunningdale and students have found a time capsule left by the settlers which contains many predictions for the future. They predict that nations will abandon traditional methods of conflict and resort to the use of biological warfare. In 2016, one such disease will spread and kill all of the humans on the planet. (4)

I'll be glad when 2013 comes and this whole Mayan calendar turns out to be false. But then there will be something else.

Pilgrim

Rapture Museum? Can you afford a building that big?

Hey Lysa,

I watched that video. I can't say it changed my view on the Pre-trib because since I was 1 year old in the Lord it never seemed "right" to me.

By the way, is the guy in this video talking about Preterism?

Pilgrim

Wouldnt be funny if we see Revelation unfold in front of our very eyes... and it's not allegorical at all, but rather very much literal!

That would certainly be a mind-bender!

Of all the views that I have read about, I still like Jim Fowler's Triumphalist View. I had never heard of this until about a year ago, but it supplied a lot of puzzle pieces for me.

Revelation - Jesus' Victory over Religion.
http://www.christinyou.net/pages/revel.html

Pilgrim

Hi Pilgrim777,

Like SimpleLiving pointed out, it is a myth to say that the idea of a gathering of the Bride of Christ BEFORE the time of tribulation was only formulated in the last 162 years. Yet, even when it is pointed out with citations and evidence, some individuals continue to propagate such a myth.

Also, is there a reason that you mentioned that you noted the 15 references FOR THE LAST 2,000 YEARS (presented by SimpleLiving)? Due to the destructive nature that time plays on the writings of men, there just isn't much in terms of specifics when studying historic views of eschatology. The fact that at least 15 or more historical examples exist demonstrates: A.) It was not "invented" by Darby or a little girl circa 1850; and, B.) This was probably not a "fringe" view of the matter.

But, like others have mentioned, the views of others are irrelevant for the Berean mindset. When I met the Lord as a young teenager, I came to question EVERYTHING that I had ever been taught.

My mother came to Christ when I was about 8 years old and she required that we all "go to church" afterward. Prior to that, I had sat on church buses for years. Over time, I had a specific notion about which doctrines were "mainstream" (although I couldn't care less when I was 13 years old and quite agnostic by that age).

When I came to Christ, I questioned everything. I poured myself into the Word of God and prayer over and over again and came to a conclusion about what it says. However, over time, I questioned my own conclusions after hearing what others had to say. Sometimes, my views on certain matters changed. At other times, I learned that "I don't know" is a legitimate stand when something isn't entirely clear from Scriptures (or conflicting views could be postulated).

Ultimately, I have come to think that some things just aren't meant for us to know (at least not right now). Consider the point during the Revelation where John was about to write something down that he heard (chapter 10). He was told to NOT reveal this. And, of course, there are some issues that just aren't clear enough to make such an ultimate stand upon -- especially enough to debate endlessly and divisively with the brethren.

Like I said, I have come to lean toward a view that a gathering of the Bride of Christ before the wrath of God is poured out upon the entire world (and destroys entire portions of it) is very possible. And, yes, I am aware that believers may have to live in this world during that time. But, it just doesn't matter to me all that much. Why? Our faith cannot be shaken by such things.

Believers in this age are blessed with so many things. Whereas believers in the early church passed portions of Scripture around or "heard" the Word of God being read, we live in a time where we can visit a website (like Biblegateway.com) and read dozens of versions. Many of us have several Bibles readily available to us on our shelves.

When I first traveled to the Tarahumara tribes in the rugged mountains of the Sierra Madre Occidental in Mexico, I saw believers who had no Bibles. Yet, their faith in Christ was real. It reminded me about what life must have been like for believers for the centuries following the resurrection until the advent of the printing press.

The printed (or scribed) word was a rare commodity. I imagine that fringe doctrines were less embraced by those who weren't a part of the Roman "church." Believers at that time had a knowledge of the Word of God and prayer and little else.

I suspect that early believers didn't spend their time arguing about notions about how the end would specifically come. While they may have pondered such things, they probably worried about what is primarily important.

Like I said, if our faith is firm in Christ Jesus, we don't have to worry about how the end will come. The end will still come no matter if we know how it will happen. What is most important is to be ready. And how are we ready? By knowing the Lord...walking faithfully with Him...and fellowship with Him in study and prayer (and prayerful study).

I think that it is wise to be aware of various potential scenarios for the end. However, the preparation for all of them -- rapture or not -- is to walk faithfully and humbly with our Lord. This prepares us for all things. It prepares us for the valleys and mountaintops. It prepares us for trials and tribulations. It prepares us to be "ready" if the Lord chooses to gather us BEFORE the period of His wrath or to keep us DURING it.

May we remain faithful to Him...even unto death.

Good word, Chris.

May we remain faithful to Him...even unto death.

Personally, I have abandoned all doctrines concerning the tribulation period. It's confusing, everyone is divided on the subject, to me it's not worth exploring because tribulation and persecution should already be a regular thing that comes and goes in our lives and also, when the Lord does come back He'll be back. Trying to pinpoint the period in which we live is pretty iffy and besides, who knows that what we are seeing in the world is just a preliminary events leading up to the main event that may take place in another 50 or so years, we really don't know and to be frank, I just don't care. ( I am saying that with a smile)

Amen, Approved!!

Pilgrim

Anybody with any reasonable understanding in the bible should know that there is a coming “great tribulation” that is different than all tribulations in the past and present- that it is coming in the future to try the whole earth and the only ones who shall escape are those who have been faithful to God and his word at that particular time. Some also believe that this remnant will be those who through faith overcame the world and will not have to go through “the great tribulation” but will escape by being caught up to be with the Lord.

Hi Pilgrim!

In my haste, I neglected to clarify that I do NOT believe anyone here is being belligerent. (Forgive me, everyone, if it sounded that way!) The belligerent folks I was referring to were the folks we run into (in online forums and in the real world) who are so absolutely cemented in their eschatological theories that they can't discuss the subject of the rapture or the end times without forcefully (and usually rudely) giving their opinions.

On the contrary, I found the conversation here refreshing. Nobody has been dogmatic. Whether pre, post, or undecided, it appears that everyone agrees that the wisest decision is to be watchful, prayerful and ready at ALL times.

This subject, I must admit, utterly fascinates me. I can't help but wonder why God has chosen to keep this a mystery! Like others here, I laid aside everything I had been taught and studied the Word for myself. Through prayer and fasting, many of my old beliefs crumbled. Yet, as much as I have studied the end times, no amount of prayer or fasting brought about absolute confirmation, one way or the other, in this area. And I've NEVER met a single Christian whose been able to say that they did the same thing and received a word from God that their end times doctrine is the absolute correct one. I've met several "famous" Bible teachers and they also said they couldn't say they received firm confirmation. So, I wonder why God has chosen for this to remain a mystery?

Regarding the end times, I know we are in the last days - so very close to His return. We're watching prophecy unfolding daily in the headlines. Even the world senses that we're nearing the end of... something. As Christians, this is the time for us to buckle down, repent, recommit and focus on making the most of the rest of the time we have left here to complete the work He gave us to do. What we do now, right here in this life, affects our eternity and how we'll live it. I believe that this life is a training ground for our lives in eternity. The time for our own plans, desires, feelings or understanding is over. Granted, those things are meant to be surrendered to Him when we accepted Him, but most of us struggled with that and held on to them. But we can't anymore. We just can't.

Like Leonard Ravenhill said, "Five minutes inside eternity and we will wish that we had sacrificed more! Wept more, bled more, grieved more, loved more, prayed more, given more!!!" The GLORIOUS thing about that is that it's one of those, "If I had known then what I know now..." situations. We DO know NOW that we will wish we had done all of these things ENDLESSLY more! So, we can trust God to help us accomplish these things NOW, while there's still time! God can redeem the time!

Personally, I've recommitted to this. Easter day begins a nine day vacation for me. I will be locking my door, turning off the phone, fasting, praying, repenting, thanking, praising and flat out seeking the Lord. I'm so desperate for Him. Please, if anyone remembers me during that week, I would so appreciate your prayers. Whether we here for five more weeks, five more years or five more decades, I want to make the most of it for His glory.

This subject, I must admit, utterly fascinates me. I can't help but wonder why God has chosen to keep this a mystery!

Probably for the same reason all of our tomorrows are mysteries.

As Christians, this is the time for us to buckle down, repent, recommit and focus on making the most of the rest of the time we have left here to complete the work He gave us to do.

As Christians, all we can do is follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and abide in Christ. Is that what "buckle down" means?

Like Leonard Ravenhill said, "Five minutes inside eternity and we will wish that we had sacrificed more! Wept more, bled more, grieved more, loved more, prayed more, given more!!!" The GLORIOUS thing about that is that it's one of those, "If I had known then what I know now..." situations. We DO know NOW that we will wish we had done all of these things ENDLESSLY more! So, we can trust God to help us accomplish these things NOW, while there's still time! God can redeem the time!

If there is no condemnation NOW for those that are in Christ Jesus, then there will not be any condemnation or regrets in heaven. What is it that you are trying to accomplish? We can only yield to His will and obey Him accomplishing what He wants.

I hope you don't put pressure on those around you to be doing "spiritual works" rather than encouraging them to know the Lord and to hear from the Lord, themselves and rest in Him. I am not saying that you do, just hope you don't do that.

Pilgrim

I watched it.

I am amazed to this day,that such a great event as the Rapture of the saints alongside those that are resurrected from the dead,is defined by some,as an event showcased in the light of the great tribulation.

What is the purpose of the rapture?Is God doing something?

Why is the heart of the matter being overlooked?

I firmly believe that God views the matter from the perspective of heaven.(Obviously)

Has anyone noticed the conspicuous absence of the greatest event,outside Jesus's ascension as high priest,being the Marriage of the bride and groom?

This is heaven's view.The Marriage. Not the tribulation.

Note in the video,not one mention of these critical ingredients.

Quote "The history of the pre-trib rapture seems to start with Margaret MacDonald in 1830. Here is what I find. Is there anything documented before this?"

She was post trib.She erroneously believed the trib. period was for the preparation of the church,as if we need something to cleanse us other than the blood.

I remember reading that in church history the earliest writing about a pre-trib rapture was around the 300's A.D. but I can't find it at the moment. However the strength of anything stands or falls alone on scripture no matter what generation the understanding of it finally comes into being.

I believe in the rapture; however talking with Greg Gordon and Art Katz's reasoning from the scriptures have convinced me of the validity of a post-trib rapture.

Stop smiling Greg :)

And back to one of Lysa's original questions: Have the events of the last three years shaken any pre-tribbers belief?

I would be surprised if it did. Most pre-trib believers believe that events preceding the rapture will be very violent.

Since the antichrist kills all the saints,who exactly are the one raptured post trib?

Schripture is emphatic that "ALL" on earth worship the beast.

Rev 13
7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

The 'All' in this passage of Rev 13 is not in the sense that all take it but that all are required to take it.

7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

It appears no stone is left unturned."no man" "all"

He,antichrist kills them all.(Those left behind)

Re:psalm1:
Hi there.
Ok, regarding verse 8, the comma is placed like a pause for clarification qualifying who this 'all' is, indicating 'all' whose names are
NOT written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Also, this pause can then be understood to qualify who is not affected or included in this 'all': those covered by the blood of the Lamb, who worship Him, who ARE written in the book of life, none of this applies to them.

Don't forget that this passage is not just regarding the future. It has a present fulfillment as well. Right now the spirit of anti-christ is making war with the saints and overcoming them.

Quote;"Ok, regarding verse 8, the comma is placed like a pause for clarification qualifying who this 'all' is, indicating 'all' whose names are
NOT written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Also, this pause can then be understood to qualify who is not affected or included in this 'all': those covered by the blood of the Lamb, who worship Him, who ARE written in the book of life, none of this applies to them"

None of this applies to those THAT DIDN'T RECEIVED THE MARK.

That's because the bride is raptured and the ones that were left behind have been slaughtered by the antichrist.
Look at this verse;
7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, AND TO OVERCOME THEM: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

It says ALL. That means every human being.
And he causeth ALL, BOTH SMALL AND GREAT, RICH AND POOR, FREE AND BOND to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:..............(The ones that don't are beheaded)

This why it says what it does in this verse;
10He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

It is basically saying "Do not resist with weapons,it is time to be martyred"

Quote;"Right now the spirit of anti-christ is making war with the saints and overcoming them."

These current and past martyrs are among the ones under the altar in heaven.

Revelation 6:9

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Note that after the mass slaughter by antichrist,they are no more confined to that location,indicating their bodies are now resurrected and glorified.
Rev 7; 9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

IOW the bride is almost entirely gathered together in heaven for the marriage supper.Only a few thousand remain to be gathered(144 k + the 2 witnesses)

Actually Chapter 13:9&10 is worded in such a way as to reveal that some will be held physically captive,or held alive in prison and some will be killed by the sword by the way we are encouraged to hear and understand or to pay close attention to the fact that 2 separate things are being said here and then the verse goes on to make the distinction between being made a captive and by being killed by the sword. In addition to this, in context, we are told that the saints will need to patiently endure persecution. If all saints are already dead this would not be mentioned,as it would be a moot point. The reality of a continuance of saints alive on earth during the tribulation is made plain in Chapter 14. We have the third angel (vs 9), warning all remaining saints not to worship the beast and his statue or to take his mark. Then we are told again (vs12)that the saints who are still on the planet will need to endure persecution patiently and that those who die from that time forward are blessed indeed. These saints will be derived from every nation, tribe and tongue and people as it is these that the 1st angel is proclaiming the eternal gospel to,as it is written in vs 6 &7 of ch 14. The 144,000 spoken of in the beginning verses of ch 14 are jews located on Mnt. Zion, these others are from all over the earth, as it is written.

hi,i am not going to worry one second about the things the ephah is talking about because i am ready today to meet Jesus. the foolish are getting ready and looking to signs were i am looking unto Jesus.i am not concerned about tomorrow for i am in Christ ,and He holds tomorrow. choose this day who you will serve...and serve Him.jimp

One thought for us all that is very important in our walk is as follows
Jesus spent a lot of time warning his disciples of the future events for his own life, example him going to the cross.
Jesus also warned his disciples of future events that would be coming for them, so that when those events would take place the disciples would be reminded and would not see these things as a surprise or as a threat, but would see the power of Christs prophecy and could take comfort in that they had been prewarned, this created in them a trust and confidence knowing that Christ is of truth and was with them, an example of this is what Jesus showed Paul of his ministry and his death.
If Jesus saw the importance of revealing to us the future, then let us not despise these warnings but keep them in our hearts so that when these things take place, we will be reminded and have a faith and trust in Christ that is not waivering.
Like Jesus stated, when you see these things happening look up for your redemption draws near.
What a great hope we have, Jesus has not left us as orphans, he will return in the same way he left.
Let us arise and be confident of our faith in Jesus.
Let us not be ashamed of the gospel of Christ for in it the Righteosness of God is revealed to all, as it is written the Just shall live by faith.

these people did not teach the pre trib rapture grant geffery a pre trib teacher has been taking htose quotes grossly outta context take a look at what victorinus and shepherd of hermas really said www.oasischristianchurch.org/air/Jeffrey.pdf what ephream and dolcino really said http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/eq/2008-2_143.pdf and what the 17th guys said http://covenant-theology.blogspot.ca/2006/11/thomas-ices-pre-trib-evidence.html and about Joesph Mede,Mede proposed that Christ would suspend believers in the sky (in a non-secret fashion), for a space of hours or a few days, while God defeated the forces of evil on earth and then lowered believers back to earth ... with no period of tribulation taking place in these few hours. Some Christian thinkers who followed Mede parroted him, essentially. This was a rapture only of sorts, far different than what Darby and we envision today. Hence, Darby gets public credit (as I noted) for envisioning full - and secret - rapture followed by an extended period of tribulation prior to a traditional second coming. But you are right, Mede is worth noting, and I have revised my essay to include a line about him. Thanks!

I cannot believe such a huge segment of the body of Christ has allowed themselves to be defined through the tribulation period.

The Rapture of the church is simply the groom coming for his bride.

I looked at the charts from that site and it is amazingly void of the obvious scriptures that define Jesus' return for his bride.

It is as if the marriage and gathering of his bride is a token,and interruption of the main theme of whipping his bride into worthiness.

Something to to consider;
Rev 13;7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Note the utter LACK of protection from God.Power is given to the antichrist to kill the people of God.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 20;
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

It is plain as day,there are no christians left during the great trib for a post trib rapture.

Rev 14;
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Here we are told what will happen if you take the mark.Then,"blessed are those that die from henceforth."
No protection whatsoever.In fact it is better to die.

Rev 15;
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Here are those that got victory over the antichrist via martyrdom.They are in heaven now.

So the presumption that God protects his church during the trib period is false.

Those left behind are killed by anticrist who is empowered from God the kill the saints.
The 144k as well as the 2 witnesses are all killed during the great trib,and ALL ARE FOUND IN HEAVEN!

The huge mega millions of God's people now populating heaven
Have what purpose?
THE WEDDING SUPPER.

All are there.The entire church was raptured and those left behind were martyred.There is not any of God's people on earth at the end of the trib period.