The Denomination Is An Abomination ~Andy Zoppelt

denoimations are a bibilical prinicaple

all the tribes have a denomational name like levites the tribe of dan ects

jesus of what nasarath,,who was the nasaren

the bible talks about the herbrews ,and helinists,,which shows that even christans identafied them selfs in different groups

we see each church was name according to where they were ,,,the ephesians ,,,,what it does show is that christans ,,went by a name other then the church of jesus christ ,,even the word christian was developed by heathen or jews ,,and was a negative word ,,and the church of jesus christ ,,decide to take of that name ,,,,im sure there would have been devision about that as not all of the elect ,would have been happy to be labled as a christan

even labeling one self as a nondemonational christian,,is far removed from the name church of jesus christ ,or chruch of the first born as the bible teaches

so there is strong contradiction when one calls all denoimatioan an abomination ,,this statment is unbibilcal,,and is taking the scipture out of contex regarding what paul said to the church at corinith

paul using the devisive term church at corinith ,would be an aboination ,becasue the name jesus and christ is not mentioned ,and is obviously another name christans had

in it root most of this sort of debate ,is straning out nats ,wile chewing on camles

sorry if i sound blunt

I agree with the sentiments of 'brothagary'.

Well, the article is good, but I wish it included a clear-cut disclaimer on what it does not mean to say.

I guess it is rather those unkind and cynical attitudes toward the other groups that consume us.

gday frank ,,,i noticed that in my new king james bible

galatians 1;1 to the churches of galatia,,,

here he uses the word churches ,,and insted of calling it of god ,he said of galatia,,,,,,,just pointing out another name for the church of jesus ,that is not derived from the name jesus christ ,nor from the bible

Gary, Galatia was a region (in Asia minor) not a city or town.

Allan

Many denominations are built of likeminded people of a likeminded faith. The true church is only made up of born again believers. To call a denomination an abomination is almost abominmal in itself. However, some denomiations have become apostate and no longer make up the true church, which is purchased with His blood. Christ said that He would build His church and man cannot tear it down. Organizations may crumble, but not those who make up His bride. You could use the example of OT Israel. Were they an abomination? Not when they were faithful to God. When they fell away God, He destroyed them. Not all who are of Israel are Israel.

, it makes no differnce to me weather a gods church is called churches in reigons,,and a church in a town or village ,it is irelevent to me and to the point i was making ,,,,iv allways believe that the body of christ the church is a universel church made up of every believe of different denominations ,and even the denomination ;non denomination ;; its beside the point i was making

iv personly never been a member ,of any denomination ,neither a member of a non denomination group ,,

im a member of the chruch of the first born registed in heaven ,,,the body of christ ,a member of the unity of spirit

i made my point ,in my first post ,about ,,the body of christ being called by different names ects or known by different names ,,the helenists ,,,the hebrews ects ,,and the name we have labled our self with christains ,,,which also is not the name jesus or the father gave us

i know there is neither jew nor greek slave nor free ,but all are one in jesus christ ,,,,,i still submit the prinicaple of extra names being applyed to the church is bibilical,,,,,and that corinithans chapters about some saying there were of paul or apolus,or peter ,and other who said there were of christ,,is taken out of contex when aplied to the agrument about denomination

the contex is clearly about thinking to highly in men ,and glorafing men and lowering christ down to the standared of the apostals ,,that is anbomination ,, giving men the glory that only belongs to gods son due to the carnal state of the church which also include of abominations like allowing fornacation to be excepted in the church ,,and denile of the resarection ,, its no wonder that some of these people glorfied the apostals ,,,like seen in the the book of acts ,,, when paul was concidered a god

the denomination issue is not the same issue being delt with by paul in the church at corinith so it is clearly taken out of contex when aplied to this issue of denomination

also brother jim i can safely say jesus did not die so you can call other parts of his bride an aboination ,becasue they dont fit in with your doctrine

i sinceraly dont agree with the artical ,and detect un called for anger ,,flesh ,,in it

but if any one could preach against denomination ,i surly could be one ,,,due to me never being amember ,,so im not being biast ,,,or this opinion is not rooted in how i was bought up

i know this doesnt sound verry good ,,,but

we also have the sect of the pharaisses and paul even after his conversion in acts ,,,say he is still a pharassie

i agree with you jeesus is god liberal denominations are a no no ,and those denominations are anobomination becasue of there doctrine

as the scripture says we should be of one mind in common understanding ,,,,,,and we are the crusafiction ,,the resarection ,,,,repentance ,,,saved by grace through faith
the virgin birth ,,the second coming ,,,,we all agree in the common things weather we are a denomination or a nondemoniation ,,there are certin beliefs tha tare held in common the devinity of christ ect

i dont think we can take the scripture to mean that we must agree on every single tenent of the faith

other wise even in nondemonational groups they would be scects differing in opinion and judment ,which would make them as guilty as the denomination regarding division

thats if we want to hold to anextremly strick view on being of one opinion and one judgment

1 Corinthians 1:10 amplified
But I urge and entreat you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you be in perfect harmony and full agreement in what you say, and that there be no dissensions or factions or divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in your common understanding and in your opinions and judgments. For it has been made clear to me, my brethren, by those of Chloe's household, that there are contentions and wrangling and factions among you.

also brother jim i can safely say jesus did not die so you can call other parts of his bride an aboination ,becasue they dont fit in with your doctrine

i sinceraly dont agree with the artical ,and detect un called for anger ,,flesh ,,in it

Hi Gary,

Does it bother you that you have partnered with the accuser of the brethren here and accused Jim of being an angry, fleshly person?

I meet with Jim (in person) as often as possible and to make these statements about him is well, laughable since he is none of these things. Frankly, I wish there were thousands more like him.

Either way he's in good company, they called Jesus the prince of demons.

The institutional Church thinks in terms of corporate, impersonal, commercial, business, company, structural, organizational, etc..

And yet.....

Jim, If you have been following the “Identity” thread, you’ll know what I mean when I say that denominations are mere illusions – figments of the imagination. It’s how the people try to define themselves. Those in the management are the ones designated to maintain the illusion. And others are expected to comply – including me, as music director. But there are plenty of ways to live in the reality instead of the illusion.

I have been observing an intriguing phenomena at the grass roots level in these mainline churches. Individuals may officially embrace their collective “identity” but they don’t necessarily do so in reality. A “liberal” church congregation may burst forth with evangelical hymns and preaching. These people go ahead and defy their denominational distinctions, or rather, simply recognize it for what it is: an illusion. And no one stops it because no one can.

The presence of authentic believers cannot be underestimated - those who serve in various capacities. Their impact is hard to appreciate from a distance. It’s like an “underground” church quietly and faithfully operating within the institutional church. These little flickers of light might be all many of the parishioners see of Christ; and they warm their hearts to it. I see it all the time.

the Saints are in all of these fellowships

Praise God for them!

What makes me sadder is not so much the darkness in hearts in these churches, but how believers who “don’t agree” are so quick to go elsewhere and leave these congregations in the dark.

Diane

What makes me sadder is not so much the darkness in hearts in these churches, but how believers who “don’t agree” are so quick to go elsewhere and leave these congregations in the dark.

Hi Diane,

I can understand where you are coming from in this statement but folks who have been burned have ZERO desire to go down the same road again, so they just leave, silently (and some times silently doesn't even go over well). From there they are labeled 'church hoppers', 'rebellious', [insert name here], no worries.

This is a new day, the internet is enabling like minded brothers and sisters a means of connecting with each other and its a beautiful thing. When we get together we don't sit around railing against denominations, honestly there's not much time for that. Last time we got together we focused more on how to pass out tracts, asking for prayer for things, and getting to know other folks, it was great!! When I left I felt so energized! There are groups where their sole purpose in life is to rail against denominations and yammer on about how wonderful their doctrine is since they meet in small groups, but God forbid we ever become such a thing.

In nearly every sermon on this site by Len Ravenhill he mentions the same issues addressed in the article that Jim posted here. No one in their right mind would call Len 'angry and fleshly', however when another brother says the same thing he is labeled as such, go figure.

Jim,
I belong to the Lord Jesus Christ. This is all that really matters. When you speak of denominations and/or house churches, this can be a misnomer. For example, the Church of God claims to not be a denomination. BUt as they have developed with more and more congregations started, they soon gained denominational characteristics (organization, doctrinal statements, schools, sending missionaries and ordaining Christian workers, etc.). Is this wrong? Of course not, if GOd is leading and working in their midst. Paul even ordained elders and deacons. Schools were started in NT times, etc.
House churches can gain theses same characteristics (organization, doctrinal beliefs, etc.). The question remains is, who is leading? God or the will of man.
Many denominations have become abominations because they have ceased to be led of the Lord and have denied the very Christ who died to save. That is why the church cannot save, only Christ can save from sin.

As a person that has moved in denominational, non-denominational, house-church, out-of- church and no-church-at-all circles, I can say that the rhetoric is a total distortion of the facts. A lot of people that constantly attack the so-called 'institutional church' are so angry and bitter at everyone and everything that they have become worse than the things they condemn. In fact, I have been in house meetings where I was considered the point-of-contact for the so-called institutional church, being repeatedly attacked with all manor of devilish and fleshly comments until they had to be put out of the hosts house. I have looked into their faces I have seen the anger in their eyes.

No matter what Ravenhill or any other person says (whosoever they are it maketh no matter to me God respecteth no mans person), there are people of God that move in denominational churches just like there are people moving in other constructs. They have a God to answer to for their comments. And I would suggest that those that parrot such sayings hearken to the fact they they will likewise give an account to God for every idle word they speak against the people of God and the churches of God.

One of my favorite books is G.H. Lang's churches of God. It outlines many issues related to the church and denominations, etc. Attacking the churches is not the way to go about seeing these many issues remedied. Making derogatory remarks is not helpful. The wrath of man does not work the righteousness of God. Some people are so mad and bitter they will not assemble at all; all the while sitting around with their nose in the air as if they are more spiritual than everyone else. When I was a child having no way to know God it was a denominational church that took it upon themselves to come and pick my brother and I up on the church van on the other side of town to take us to learn about God. On their own time and their own dime. That ongoing act of kindness eventually lead to most of my family turning to Christ and in some way working in ministry to homeless, children, youth, nursing homes, pastoral, tent revival AND out-of-church folks. There are over 40 people in my family and most of them serve God. Before that time we were all lost and without hope.

So you need to be careful how you attack the churches of God no matter what their affiliation. Not everybody is going to hell in a hand basket, there are a lot of denominational churches doing the work of the ministry. I would recommend using your energies to get out and do something useful to God rather than sitting around causing division and pointing out the obvious.

hi, do not paint a broad brush of ignorance over the denominational churches.some are dead and some are in revival. in my city, a baptist church on the hill has a staid service in the sanctuary and are on fire in the gym at the same time in the same church. in the gym people getting gloriously saved and weeping over their sins and moving in the fire of the Holy Spirit. with a cold stiff service going on with less folks in the big church.jimp

Robert said: "One of my favorite books is G.H. Lang's churches of God. It outlines many issues related to the church and denominations, etc. Attacking the churches is not the way yo go about seeing these many issues remedied. Making derogatory remarks is not helpful."

That's one of my favourite books too. Lang shows clearly (and from Scripture) that denominational Christianity is not God's order. But Lang, while standing his ground, is not derogatory. He comes across as being gentle, gracious.

It's very true, as Robert said, that many denominational churches are serving God to the best of their ability according to the revelation they have. (In fact they put some of the "come-outers" who supposedly have more revelation to shame.)

It's also true that God isn't prepared to "settle" for this state of things. It's such a terrible testimony to
"the world"... all the denominational divisions in Christianity. It's a reproach to His Name, and He will not leave things like this. He is patiently working toward the desire of His heart-- a very high order of unity. He says the result of it will be that the world will believe (Jn. 17.20-23).

I like to say-- but it's often misunderstood-- that denominations are not the places where God's people are gathered. They're the places where they are scattered.

In other words, many wonderful people of God are presently scattered throughout the denominations.

It will not always be so.

Allan Halton

I'm challenged by this Ravenhill quote:

"John (Wesley) died in 1791, converted at 35. Turn that round it makes 53. Add them together it makes 88. Because he was saved at 35, preached for 53 years. And you know what he left when he died? He left a handful of books, a faded Geneva gown that he preached in all over England, six silver spoons somebody gave him, six pound notes, “give one to each of the poor men that carry me to my grave.” And that’s all he left: six pound notes, six silver spoons, a handful of books, a Geneva gown and ah... there's something else... what was it, the other thing? Oh, I know, something else he left, the Methodist Church."

Obviously Ravenhill was not 'too' anti-denominational or he had not lauded John Wesley and his accomplishment like this. Methodism (neo-Methodism) today in its many forms has tens of millions of people associated. I think it is useful to understand how many denominations were formed. Both John Wesley and George Whitefield were associated with the development of Methodism. They were working at a time when their message was not really accepted in the Anglican church, so they had no choice. This is often how denominations form, but not always.

As Allan pointed out and as I mentioned earlier, GH Lang sets forth a powerful treatise on God's design for the churches of God. I have my eye on that ideal. I believe God will bring about this ideal. I have sat in on sermons from men like Art Katz that suggest that persecution will bring the 'church' to her fullest expression. Others like Ron Bailey suggest that the local churches of God with their individual lamp stands are where God is speaking forth His word and giving direction. This is the base unit of accountability with God. This is the basis of his message, 'the word of His grace' preached at Greenock in 2008. I listen and I have my eye on this ideal.

The challenge is moving from where we are to the ideal. Not everyone agrees on what the ideal even is. I know that from observing the reactions of people to the GH Lang, Art Katz and Ron Bailey type messages. Others take a more radical approach and say we need to start all over with a wrecking ball. The problem with that is that we have to have some form of assembly and ministry as we make the transition. In my view there has to be an understanding and a teaching that outlines God's purposes in establishing churches. If our model in Revelation 2,3 is to be followed, who can say that their meeting is one in which there is a lamp stand and Christ is walking in the midst speaking to the church instruction in real time?

The point is, men in their finite minds do not have the wisdom to speak to the churches of God. Jesus Christ walks in the midst of the candlesticks and observes their works and their needs. He is the only one qualified to speak to the churches. It is His Church made up of the churches of God. If change is to be made He is going to have to do it. For this to work we have to recognize that 7X in Revelation 2, 3 we are told, "He that hath an ear let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." There is no place in scripture where there is such an emphasis as this. In Hebrew idiom a 2X repetition is done to emphasize; what are we to make of 7X?

"I think we need to do this" or "I think the problem is this", etc. ad infinitum is what we hear. This is the counsel of men. It has no authority or efficacy to make real changes. Christ said, "Upon this rock I will build my Church..." The key is the 'I'. It is His Church and He'll do the speaking. the question is, who is doing the listening? Who has ears to hear what the Spirit is saying? The High Priest moving in the churches is observing them and knows what they need. The trouble is, it is an exceedingly rare thing to find any assembly- denomination, non-denomination, house church, etc., that is really bent on hearing what God is saying to them. I say this stuff and people look at me like I am crazy. As if God don't speak to the churches or they have no idea how they might go about ascertaining what Christ is saying to their assembly.

So I suggest our first step is not to speak but to listen; to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches so we can know where we need to make corrections in our own gatherings. Not the denomination down the street or some 'church of America' but what is God saying to the people attending the meeting where I gather. A fools mind is in the ends of the earth. (Proverbs 17:24) God has not called me to be concerned with what is going on across the country, but to mind my own business (John 21:22). This is why Jesus gave careful instructions to each of the 7 churches. He did not get up and make blanket statements to them. He didn't 'spank them all to get the right one.' He spoke to each one individually what THEY needed to hear. Men move in their pet-peeves and finite wisdom and have no clue what God is doing unless He tells them. Talk about messing something up, men can do it. We need to hear from God and it begins in our personal lives and assemblies where we gather.

Good word, Robert! One size does not fit all with God.

Every expression of Christ is unique.

God has not called me to be concerned with what is going on across the country, but to mind my own business (John 21:22).

The government is upon His shoulders for a reason.

Pilgrim

I know I have heard brother Ravenhill say it before, and a quick google search turned up these quotes:

"abomination or denomination, whatever you want to call it." -Leonard Ravenhill

“…that’s not the kind of message you’ll hear today in our religious abominations…er, denominations.” -Leonard Ravenhill

Jim,
Ravenhill has been instrumental in my life, in breaking the spell of the institutional’s power. I thank God for using him to give me that kick start into a new way of viewing my relationship to church. However, I do not wish to carry with me his dark negativity and broad-sweeping oppositional language. It seems that his focus on human failure at times overshadows his joyous faith in a God of promise. God after all, not man, holds destiny in his hands. Who would want my faith if I portray it as a tragic defeated faith. And God is most capable of working in the midst of abominations. Revival history proves that. In the Hebrides revivals, God worked in the abominable church – the liberal denomination, while the more “Biblical” denomination – the one that split off in order to distinguish itself from the abominable one dug in its heals and resisted (for a time, at least).

In view of Ravenhill’s denunciations, then I would say about myself: Even as I belong to Jesus Christ and am united with his people scattered around, I am a member in the Church of the Abomination and other abominable associations. And amazingly, God keeps on sending blessings even in the darkness - through my relationship with the people over the years.

EDIT: Maybe a point to explore would be the idea of being in the world but not of it - coming out of Babylon through Christ not merely physical re-location.

Diane

We are named after the Father, how dare we be so conceded and full of pride to name our churches after men or some catchy phrase. Yet, we do it without a second thought.

We feel the need to distinguish ourselves from something we disagree with, whether from good intentions or out of critique. For example, here's a catchy phrase...

The called out ones.

Note that this article denouncing denominations ends with the description of yet another exclusive group.

Brothers, I'm only one fellow here, but I'll tell you this discussion is wearisome to me. We all can tell stories of dissapointment, and so I won't credential myself by adding mine. I understand being hurt, but we shouldn't hurt in kind. Only consider, if we say it is wrong to label churches, then what do we do with our own labels such as "institutional" or "abomination?"

My appeal here is to let this discussion go away quietly, as quietly as some here testify they left their former churches. Let home churches be known for purity of worship, not as a protest movement against other churches.

Blessings,

MC

quote:
"I like to say-- but it's often misunderstood-- that denominations are not the places where God's people are gathered. They're the places where they are scattered.

In other words, many wonderful people of God are presently scattered throughout the denominations."
end quote

I like that, but I would describe it like this:

Denominations are like concentration camps, but without any guards or locks. Those remaining inside might have a problem getting the unsaved to join them.

Denominations are like concentration camps,

With this latest inflammatory comment, I think the usefulness of this thread has ran its course. I am locking this thread.

-Robert