My pastor mentioned carnal christianity in passing in his sermon last week and it caught my attention because I'd never heard of this before being the "baby Christian" that I am. I did a little research on it and now I'm just confused. It seems to me now that everything is "carnal" so does that make us all carnal Christians in some respect? Is it carnal to have a nice home and a nice car etc. or is carnal referring to something else?
one who is still lacking in spiritual growth
A quick answer is that there is no such thing as a carnal Christian. A "carnal Christian" is someone who calls themself a Christian, but has not truly repented.
If we have been truly saved then God has changed our heart, and we will find that we no longer desire to sin or live like we did before Jesus (tho we do sin, no one is sinless except Jesus).
If someone has a desire to sin and live a sinful lifestyle, yet claim to be a Christian they are deceiving themself. They are not saved.
Sanctification is a term that simply means that we are growing progressively in our faith. A new believer may continue to sin in some areas, but eventually they will grow and learn and their desire to follow Christ will increase. There are different levels of spiritual maturity among believers.
Everything is carnal? Not sure what you have been reading... perhaps if you could give us a little more info we could help. Who has told you everything is carnal?
Krispy
A Carnal Christian is someone who lives according to the flesh and does not find the need to repent, but he/she still calls themselves as Christian.
Jesus warned about the leaven of Herod.
Mark 8-15:-
Watch out! Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.
The Leaven of Herod is this, he enjoyed to hear John the Baptist who was a very powerful preacher and preached against Sin. But when he came home he lived a thoroughly worldly life, and lived with his Brother's wife.
It is also possible for a Christian to go Church regularly and appreciate few powerful messages that he hears in Sermon Index but still live a carnal fleshly life.
Romans 8-12:-
So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh for if you are living according to the flesh, you WILL die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
These are words not written to unbelievers but to Brothers (Believers) who have received the spirit of Christ. So even a man who has received the spirit of Christ can still live according to desires of Flesh and there by resulting in Spiritual death if he does not REPENT.
Lamb99,
I don't know what kind of research you did that confused you, but here are all the occurrences of carnal in the Bible. Being a new Christian, this would be a good exercise for you to ask the Holy Spirit to instruct you and to give you understanding.
You will notice as you read these verses that there are different meanings. Read the surrounding contexts and pray as you study these verses. Come back and tell us what you have found out about it or tell us if you are still confused and why. Don't feel bad if you are still confused. None of us "get it" it the first time, everytime or even the first time, anytime.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 15:27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.
1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
1Co 9:11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Pilgrim
CARNAL OR SPIRITUAL by Andrew Murray
"And Peter went out and wept bitterly." --Luke 22:62.
These words indicate the turning point in the life of Peter,--a crisis. There is often a question about the life of holiness. Do you grow into it? or do you come into it be a crisis suddenly? Peter has been growing for three years under the training of Christ, but he had grown terribly downward, for the end of his growing was, he denied Jesus. And then there came a crisis. After the crisis he was a changed man, and then he began to grow aright. We must indeed grow in grace, but before we can grow in grace we must be put right.
You know what the two halves of the life of Peter were. In God's Word we read very often about the difference between the carnal and the spiritual Christian. The word "carnal" comes from the Latin word for flesh. In Romans viii, and in Gal. v., we are taught that the flesh and the Spirit of God are the two opposing powers by which we are dominated or ruled, and we are taught that a true believer may allow himself to be ruled by the flesh. That is what Paul writes to the Corinthians. In the 3rd chapter, the first four verses, he says, four times to them, "You are carnal, and not spiritual." And just so a believer can allow the flesh to have so much power over him that becomes "carnal." Every object is named according to its most prominent characteristic. If a man is a babe in Christ and has a little of the Holy Spirit and a great deal of the flesh, he is called carnal, for the flesh is his chief mark. If he gives way, as the Corinthians did, to strife, temper, division, and envy, he is a carnal Christian. He is a Christian, but a carnal one. But if he gives himself over entirely to the Holy Spirit so that He (the Holy Spirit) can deliver from the temper, the envy, and the strife, by breathing a heavenly disposition; and can mortify the deeds of the body; then God's Word calls him a "spiritual" man, a true spiritual Christian.
Now, these two styles are remarkably illustrated in the life of Peter. The text is the crisis and turning point at which he begins to pass over from the one side to the other.
The message that I want to bring to you is this: That the great majority of Christians, alas, are not spiritual men, and that they may become spiritual men by the grace of God. I want to come to all who are perhaps hungering and longing for the better life, and asking what is wrong that you are without it, to point out that what is wrong is just one thing,--allowing the flesh to rule in you, and trusting in the power of the flesh to make you good.
There is a better life, a life in the power of the Holy Spirit.
Then, I want to tell you a third thing. The first thing is important, take care of the carnal life, and confess if you are in it. The second truth is very blessed, there is a spiritual life; believe that it is a possibility. But the third truth is the most important,--You can be one step get out of the carnal into the spiritual state. May God reveal it to you now through the story of the Apostle Peter!
Look at him, first of all, in the carnal state. What are the marks of the carnal state in him? Self-will, self-pleasing, self-confidence. Just remember, when Christ said to the disciples at Caesarea Philippi, "The Son of Man must be crucified," Peter said to Him, "Lord, that can never be!" And Christ had to say to him, "Get thee behind Me, Satan!" Dear reader, what an awful thing for Peter! He could not understand what a suffering Christ was. And Peter was so self-willed and self-confident that he dared to contradict and to rebuke Christ! Just think of it! Then, you remember, how Peter and the other disciples, were more than once quarreling as to who was to be the chief--self-exaltation, self-pleasing;--every one wanted the chief seat in the Kingdom of God. Then again, remember the last night, when Christ warned Peter that Satan had desired to sift him and that he would deny Him; and Peter said twice over, "Lord, if they all deny Thee, I am ready to go to prison and to death." What self-confidence! He was sure that his heart was right. He loved Jesus, but he trusted himself. "I will never deny my Lord.! Don't you see the whole of that life of Peter is carnal confidence in himself. In his carnal pride, in his carnal unlovingness, in the carnal liberty he took in contradicting Jesus, it was all just the life of the flesh. Peter loved Jesus. God had by the Holy Spirit, taught him. Christ had said, "Flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto thee, but My Father which is in heaven." God had taught him that Christ was the Son of God; but with all that, Peter was just under the power of the flesh; and that is why Christ said at Gethsemane, "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak."--"You are under the power of the flesh, you cannot watch with Me." Dear reader, what did it all lead to? The flesh led not only to the sins I have mentioned, but last of all to the saddest of things, to Peter's actual denial of Jesus. Three times over he told the lie; and once with an oath, "I know not the man." He denied his blessed Lord. That is what it comes to with the life of the flesh. That is Peter.
Now, look in the second place at Peter after he became a spiritual man. Christ had taught Peter a great deal. I think, if you count carefully, you will find some seven or eight times, Christ had spoken to the disciples about humility; He had taken a little child and set him in the midst of them; He had said, "He that exalteth himself shall be abased, and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted; He had said that three or four times; He had at the last supper washed their feet; but all had not taught Peter humility. All Christ's instructions were in vain. Remember that now. A man who is not spiritual, though he may read his Bible, though he may study God's Word, cannot conquer sin, because he is not living the life of the Holy Spirit. God has so ordered it, that man cannot live a right Christian life unless he is full of the Holy Ghost. Do you wonder at what I say? Have you been accustomed to think,--"Full of the Holy Ghost, that is what the Apostles had to be on the day of Pentecost; that is what the martyrs and the ministers had to be; but for every man to be full of the Holy Ghost, that is too high"? I tell you solemnly, unless you believe that, you will never become thorough-going Christians. I must be full of the Holy Spirit if I am to be a whole-hearted Christian.
Then, note what change took place in Peter. The Lord Jesus led him up to Pentecost, the Holy Spirit came from heaven upon him, and what took place? The old Peter was gone, and he was a new Peter. Just read his epistle, and note the keynote of the epistle. "Through suffering to glory." Peter, who had said, "Of course, Lord, you never can suffer, or be crucified;" Peter, who, to save himself suffering or shame, had denied Christ,--Peter becomes so changed that when he writes his epistle the chief thought is the very thought of Christ, "Suffering is the way to glory." Do you not see that the Holy Spirit had changed Peter?
And look at other aspects. Look at Peter. He was so weak that a woman could frighten him into denying Christ; but when the Holy Spirit came he was bold, bold, bold to confess his Lord at any cost, was ready to go to prison and to death, for Christ's sake. The Holy Spirit had changed the man. Look at his views of Divine truth. He could not understand what Christ taught him, he could not take it in. It was impossible before the death of Christ; but on the day of Pentecost how he is able to expound the word of God as a spiritual man! I tell you, beloved, when the Holy Ghost comes upon a man he becomes a spiritual man, and instead of denying his Lord he denies himself, just remember that. In the sixteenth chapter of Matthew when Peter had said, "Lord, be it far from Thee, this shall never happen that Thou shalt be crucified," Christ said to Him: "Peter, not only will I be crucified, but you will have to be crucified too. If any man is to be My disciple, let him take up his cross to die upon it, let him deny himself, and let him follow Me." How did Peter obey that command? He went and denied Jesus! As long as a man, a Christian, is under the power of the flesh, he is continually denying Jesus. You always must do one of the two, you must deny self or you must deny Jesus, and, alas, Peter denied his Lord rather than deny himself. On the other hand, when the Holy Spirit came upon him, he could not deny his Lord, but he could deny himself, and he praised God for the privilege of suffering for Christ.
Now, how did the change come about? The words of my text tell us,--"And Peter went out and wept bitterly." What does that mean? It means this, that the Lord led Peter to come to the end of himself, to see what was in his heart, and with his self-confidence to fall into the very deepest sin that a child of God could be guilty of;--publicly, with an oath, to deny his Lord Jesus! When Peter stood there in that great sin, the loving Jesus looked upon him, and that look, full of loving reproach, loving pity, pierced like an arrow through the heart of Peter, and he went out and wept bitterly. Praise God, that was the end of self-confident Peter! Praise God, that was the turning point of his life! He went out with a shame that no tongue can express. He woke up as out of a dream to the terrible reality "I have helped to crucify the blessed Son of God." No man can fathom what Peter must have passed through that Friday, Saturday and Sunday morning. But, blessed be God, on that Sunday Jesus revealed Himself to Peter, we know not how, but "He was seen of Simon;" then in the evening He came to him with the other disciples and breathed peace, and the Holy Spirit upon him; and then, later on, you know how the Lord asked him, "Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me?"--three times, until Peter was sorrowful, and said, "Lord, thou knowest all things, thou knowest that I love thee." What was it that wrought the transition from the love of the flesh to the love of the Spirit? I tell you, that was the beginning,--"Peter went out and wept bitterly," with a broken heart, with a heart that would give anything to show its love to Jesus. With a heart that had learned to give up all self-confidence, Peter was prepared for the blessing of the Holy Spirit.
And, now, you can easily see the application of this story. Are there not many just living the life of Peter, of the self-confident Peter as he was? Are there not many who are mourning under the consciousness, "I am so unfaithful to my Lord, I have no power against the flesh, I cannot conquer my temper, I give way just like Peter to the fear of man, of company, for people can influence me and make me do things I do not want to do, and I have no power to resist them? Circumstances get the mastery over me, and I then say and do things that I am ashamed of."? Is there not more than one, who, in answer to the question, "Are you living as a man filled with the Spirit, devoted to Jesus, following Him, fully giving up all for Him?"--must say with sorrow, "God knows I am not. Alas, my heart knows it."? You say it, and I come, and I press you with the question, Is not your position, and your character, and your conduct, just like that of Peter? Like Peter, you love Jesus, like Peter you know He is the Christ of God, like Peter you are very zealous in working for Him. Peter had cast out devils in His name, and had preached the gospel, and had healed the sick. Like Peter you have tried to work for Jesus; but, oh! under it all, isn't there something that comes up continually? Oh, Christian, what is it? I pray, and I try, and I do long to live a holy life, but the flesh is too strong, and sin gets the better of me, and continually I am pleasing self instead of denying it, and denying Jesus instead of pleasing Him. Come, all who are willing to make that confession, and let me ask you to look quietly at the other life that is possible for you.
Just as the Lord Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to Peter, He is willing to give the Holy Spirit to you. Are you willing to receive Him? Are you willing to give up yourself entirely as an empty, helpless vessel, to receive the power of the Holy Spirit, to live, to dwell, and to work in you every day? Dear believer, God has prepared such a beautiful and such a blessed life for every one of us, and God as a Father is waiting to see why you will not come to Him and let Him fill you with the Holy Ghost. Are you willing for it? I am sure some are. There are some who have said often, "O God, why can't I live that life?--Why can't I live every hour of unbroken fellowship with God? --Why can't I enjoy what my Father has given me, all the riches of His grace? It is for me He gave it, and why can't I enjoy it?" There are those who say, "Why can't I abide in Christ every day, and every hour, and every moment?--why can't I have the light of my Father's love filling my heart all the day long?
Tell me, servant of God, what can help me?"
I can tell you one thing that will help you. What helped Peter? "Peter went out and wept bitterly." It must come with us to a conviction of sin; it must come with us to a real downright earnest repentance, or we never can get into the better life. We must stop complaining and confessing, "Yes, my life is not what it should be, and I will try to do better." That won't help you. What will help you? This,--that you go down in despair to lie at the feet of Jesus, and that you begin with a very real and bitter shame to make confession, "Lord Jesus, have compassion upon me! For these many years I have been a Christian, but there are so many sins from which I have not cleansed myself,--temper, pride, jealousy, envy, sharp words, unkind judgments, unforgiving thoughts." One must say, "There is a friend whom I never have forgiven for what he has said." Another must say, "There is an enemy whom I dislike, I cannot say that I can love him." Another must say, "There are things in my business that I would not like brought out into the light of man." Another must say, "I am led captive by the law of sin and death." Oh, Christians, come and make confession with shame and say, "I have been bought with the Blood, I have been washed with the Blood, but just think of what a life I have been living! I am ashamed of it." Bow before God and ask Him by the Holy Spirit to make you more deeply ashamed, and to work in you that Divine contrition. I pray you take the step at once. "Peter went out and wept bitterly," and that was his salvation; yes, that was the turning point of his life. And shall we not fall upon our faces before God, and make confession, and get down on our knees under the burden of the terrible load, and say, "I know I am a believer, but I am not living as I should to the glory of my God. I am under the power of the flesh and all the self-confidence, and self-will, and self-pleasing that marks my life."
Dear Christians, do you not long to be brought nigh unto God? Would you not give anything to walk in close fellowship with Jesus every day? Would you not count it a pearl of great price to have the light and love of God shining in you all the day? Oh, come and fall down and make confession of sin; and, if you will do it, Jesus will come and meet you and He will ask you, "Lovest thou Me?" And, if you say, "Yes, Lord," very quickly He will ask again, "Lovest thou Me?" --and if you say, "Yes, Lord," again, He will ask a third time, "Lovest thou Me?"--and your heart will be filled with an unutterable sadness, and your heart will get still more broken down and bruised by the question, and you will say, "Lord, I have not lived as I should, but still I love Thee and I give myself to Thee." Oh, beloved may God give us grace now, that, with Peter, we may go out, and, if need be, weep bitterly. If we do not weep bitterly,--we are not going to force tears--shall we not sigh very deeply, and bow very humbly, and cry very earnestly, "O God, reveal to me the carnal life in which I have been living: reveal to me what has been hindering me from having my life full of the Holy Ghost"? Shall we not cry, "Lord, break my heart into utter self-despair, and, oh! bring me in helplessness to wait for the Divine power, for the power of the Holy Ghost, to take possession and to fill me with a new life given all to Jesus?"
Murrcolr: This was very helpful. I just couldn't seem to grasp the idea of carnal and actually I was mixing it up with worldly I think and that's why I was having such a hard time. This example with Peter makes sense to me and demonstrates God's understanding and patience regarding this matter and His wanting us to realize just where we truly are in our walk with Him. My pastor was making the point that many of us go along thinking all is good and we're spiritually ok because we proclaim to be Christians and followers of the Word, but there's more than just following that needs to be going on. I didn't make that connection until after reading and really meditating on the events with Peter.
Glad to be of help.
By the way welcome to sermonindex
There are many misstatements in murrcolr's post .
Peter was not a Christian while Jesus Christ was here living on the earth.
The Apostles and even Christ Himself were still living under the Old Covenant. The New Covenant did not come into effect until the day of Pentecost. It was impossible for any person to really have Christ’s life within them under the Old Covenant. No person could have a new heart or be crucified with Christ until the day of Pentecost.
Do not forget that Christ told Peter “when you are converted” Luke 22:32.
It is not possible to compare any of us with Peter or any other of Christ’s disciples because they were under a whole different Covenant.
Before the foundation of the world God the Father, God the Son and, God the Holy Spirit made a Covenant together, concerning all of mankind. We did not have any part in this Covenant agreement. We are only the recipients’ and participants’ of what God in Christ has already accomplished for us and in us.
The New Covenant is an established fact of what God in Christ has ALREADY ACCOMPLISHED! Nothing Peter did or what we can do will ever change this fact.
Peter was not “changed” nor was he converted when he went out and wept bitterly. He could NOT have Christ’s life within him until the day of Pentecost.
For us, the day of Pentecost is in the past and we are living under the New Covenant.
It is possible for a person not to see the reality of what God in Christ has already accomplished for us and in us.
All we need to do is see, embrace and enjoy what He has already accomplished for us. There is no other way possible! God has already totally solved the problem with sin and mankind's condition once and for all.
Now as a result what God has already accomplished for you, your old sinful self was crucified with Christ and that you no longer live. Your old sinful self has died, and you no longer have a life. You have received His all-sufficient Life in exchange for your old corrupt self.
Now the Christian life isn't yours to live. God does not depend on you to live His Life for Him. He knows that it impossible for you to live His life, so you experienced His life when you were born again. You do not live for Him - He lives for you.
by KrispyKrittr on 2012/4/3 17:16:52
"A quick answer is that there is no such thing as a carnal Christian. A "carnal Christian" is someone who calls themself a Christian, but has not truly repented."
I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus, that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge, even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Cor 1:4–7 NKJV
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 1 Cor 3:1 NKJV
HI Krispy
How would you reconcile these quotes? Paul refers to the members of the church in Corinth as 'brethren' and 'carnal' in the same sentence.
Quote: A quick answer is that there is no such thing as a carnal Christian. A "carnal Christian" is someone who calls themself a Christian, but has not truly repented.
Paul Washer AKA The angry watchman
Beware of the Angry Watchman
The Angry Watchman?
I dont have time to listen to a sermon on this... can you explain briefly what this means? And why you're issuing a warning about Paul Washer? You do realize Paul Washer was a featured speaker at a fairly recent SermonIndex conference, right?
Krispy
Lamb99
Quote from Sree
A Carnal Christian is someone who lives according to the flesh and does not find the need to repent, but he/she still calls themselves as Christian.
I would like to use Sree's definition with a little amendment. The term carnal simply means fleshy or of the flesh. In 1 Cor. 1-3 Paul addresses a letter to saints who he calls "sanctified" or set apart wholly unto God. Yet he identifies behavior in them that originates in their flesh that is counter to that which is of the Spirit of God. He tells sanctified believers that they are carnal because of their sectarian factions that have arisen from following and revering men.
In Romans 8, Paul addresses walking after the spirit vs. walking after the flesh. If we walk after the flesh, even as believers, that is by definition carnality and we could at that point be called carnal.
So I wholeheartedly agree with the the fact that a carnal Christian is one who lives according to the flesh, but many believers who are walking carnally in one or several areas of their live do have hearts to repent when they are shown their carnality.
Over the past week I was worried greatly over a situation. This worry interfered with my communion with God. I am told in the word that I am not to worry and that I am to cast my care upon Him, but I did not. In that sense I was walking carnally. I have had to repent of that worry and cast that care on the Lord, even though it has not been an easy thing to do.
Hope that perspective helps and I echo the welcome to SI.
It occurred to me this afternoon that the question here really originated from a question about a term used in a sermon... and so far we have 3 or 4 slightly different definitions of "carnal Christian".
I think the original poster needs to ask his pastor what he meant by it. It really is kind of pointless for us to debate what that term means when none of our opinions on it matter... the only thing that matters is what did the pastor mean in the context of his sermon.
Krispy
"I think the original poster needs to ask his pastor what he meant by it. It really is kind of pointless for us to debate what that term means when none of our opinions on it matter... the only thing that matters is what did the pastor mean in the context of his sermon."
Actually, the only thing that matters is what the bible teaches on the subject.
The fact is, there is such a thing as a Carnal Christian because Paul uses that term in Corinthians. It may not fit within peoples theological box, but then again, I'm not sure the Word of God can be reduced to totally fit within any theological framework.
My point is the pastor has a particular point he is trying to get across... and so the question needs to be asked of him what he meant so that this gentleman can understand his pastor's point.
I appreciate your thoughts on this, and naturally I agree with you... but you missed my point completely.
Krispy
My pastor was saying that these scriptures (below) are often used to justify "Carnal Christianity." The sermon was about being a Christian in general and what that is and is not. It was I who wanted a definition of what carnal Christianity was because I had never heard the term and I had no idea what the concept was either so his reference to this passage wasn't clear to me during the sermon. It makes sense now.
Romans 7:14-25
New International Version (NIV)
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Quote: It seems to me now that everything is "carnal" so does that make us all carnal Christians in some respect? Is it carnal to have a nice home and a nice car etc. or is carnal referring to something else?
No, it is not carnal to have a nice home and a nice car.
A carnal Christian is one who is saved but has not left the pleasures of the flesh behind for a life with Christ; loving Christ but not having matured or trusting in Christ to take care of your flesh. Being a Christian (whether married or single), and continuing in bedding every man or woman that you come into contact with.
What if you had a job that required that you told little white lies? Would you stay with the job after getting saved or would you continue to trust in the money that you get for lying?
Carnality is not trusting in Christ and can encompass many facets in our life not just the sexual aspect (though many fail in that area because no one hardly talks about sex in the church).
I hope that helps. God bless,
Sister Lisa
Quote: 3 or 4 slightly different definitions of "carnal Christian"
Slightly different that's a understatement..
Sister Lisa:
Thank you for responding to this quote. I was still trying to make sense of the term "carnal" and I see that I was using the concept of "worldliness" to try and figure things out that's why I was questioning whether having worldly possessions like a nice house/car was the same as being carnal. I see now that being carnal is a deeper concept.
Brother Lamb, Please read this that's below by Paul, in regards to what you posted that he also wrote [7:14 "but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin", etc] - that he wrote but not 'of' himself - but in chpt 7, he is explaining "living under the law" and using himself as the illustrator - as he should know, because he lived under the law, a Pharisee of the Pharisees, before Christ saved him and also said of himself, that when he was under The Law & unsaved as yet, "touching the righteousness which is in the Law, blameless" ...
Please read what he wrote before and after Romans chpt 7 and see if you still believe that Paul was "a slave to sin" or that we are ....
Sorry, but this is KJV - wish I could have done it in another version for you, but I did this before your post-
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection: knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him: knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that He died, He died unto sin once: but in that He liveth, He liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid! Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
_
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, If so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Romans 6 & 8
I'll repost this from Wesley, in case you hadn't seen it and maybe you could discuss it with your Pastor, though I don't know what denomination you're in, he should know what Wesley is saying, if he is well read in the Pauline Epistles.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then - "This is a kind of a digression, to the beginning of the next chapter, wherein the apostle, in order to show in the most lively manner the weakness and inefficacy of the law, changes the person and speaks as of himself, concerning the misery of one under the law. This St. Paul frequently does, when he is not speaking of his own person, but only assuming another character. The character here assumed is that of a man, first ignorant of the law, then under it and sincerely, but ineffectually, striving to serve God. To have spoken this of himself, or any true believer, would have been foreign to the whole scope of his discourse; nay, utterly contrary thereto, as well as to what is expressly asserted, Rom_8:2. Is the law sin - Sinful in itself, or a promoter of sin. I had not known lust - That is, evil desire. I had not known it to be a sin; nay, perhaps I should not have known that any such desire was in me: it did not appear, till it was stirred up by the prohibition."
Pastor Paul Washer says there is no such thing as a "Carnal Christian"; he says that passage in the Bible has been misused and misunderstood. He talked about this in one of
his earlier sermons which he gave in his 30's. I cant recall which one it was. It made sense at the time but i cannot recall it now. You might find the topic covered at illbehonest.com in one of their short video sermons.
"Is there such a thing as a Carnal Christian?"
"Yes, in fact, there is no such thing as a Christian who is not at times carnal. Did you get that? And if you're saying to yourself, "I have never been carnal," then, "God have mercy on you."....John MacArthur
http://es.scribd.com/doc/32353973/THE-SPIRITUAL-LIFE-ANDREW-MURRAY-1897
Here is a book of Andrew Murray hope it helps you.
Rgds
Colin
paull washers definition of the carnal christan ,is of a person who profeses to be a christan and lives his life like the devil with no repentence ,or regenration ,,,,he calls them as not true christan
he says that a christian can not possably live a life style of sin and be a christan ,,so in that definition ,there is no carnal christan ,,but he does say that a christan can fall into sin and strugle with sins ,but will allways hate sin ,and want to be holy
the apostle johns says ,he who keeps on sinning is of the devil and has neither seen god ,nor has he known god ,he who is born of god keeps him self and the evil one does not touch him, he who is born of god does not keep sinning for gods seed is in him and he can not keep sinning , for he is born of god
i think when people use the term carnal christan ,there is more then one definition ,and which one is being used needs to be established , before any one can have a fruitfull chat ,,,,,,
and paul washer would fully agree with john macarther,
a carnal Christian is someone who has been born of the Spirit but is walking in the flesh.
Both of them, Paul Washer and John MacArthur are being aggressed for 'Lordship Salvation'.
_But, whatever definition we have of being 'carnal', this is simply not commendable in any way, though we have to show them brotherly consideration and mercy.
a question ,,,,can a person who profeses christ be carnal and live in sin all his life ,and still be a christan
thats true passer by ,,,,,,,but what about when john says there is sin that leds to death ,and he says we should not pray for those who sin unto death ,,,im not point finers ,just scripture
Both of them, Paul Washer and John MacArthur are being aggressed for 'Lordship Salvation'.
Thats nothing new... that started in the late 1980's when MacArthur wrote The Gospel According to Jesus. He was grossly misunderstood and maligned by people who apparently can not read.
He then wrote a follow up called The Gospel According to the Apostles to further clarify what he was saying. Again, maligned by people so badly it makes me wonder if they read the book.
Again, the matter was addressed in a biography written about John MacArthur, and I imagine there are still people out there who do not understand his teaching.
I have read all three books... and I stand fully and completely on what his teaching is in them. (I'm not saying I agree with MacArthur 100% on everything he teaches... I dont with anyone).
So-called "Lordship Salvation" is simply this: If you are saved then Jesus is your Lord and Master. It is impossible to be a Christian and Jesus not be your Lord and Master. If Jesus is not your Lord and Master than you have not yet been saved.
You are either a slave to sin, or a slave to Jesus. You can not serve two masters. Therefore, if you are not a slave to Jesus (i.e. He is not your Lord and Master), then you are a slave to sin and have not been set free (saved). The Bible says you will love the one and hate the other. If you are a slave to sin, then you hate Jesus. A Christian who hates Jesus?? Thats like rock stars against drugs!
It's really very simple and logical... and most importantly: biblical.
It took MacArther three books and hundreds of sermons to explain what I just said in 2 paragraphs.
Krispy
I have a question. Why - when a question is asked - do we quote (angry watchman :) or others, instead of typing "carnal" into a New Testament Search engine?
I'm sorry - but this method of, "______ says.", for answering questions makes me batty 'sometimes' ... not saying we should never do it - I do as well - but doesn't it matter more what His innerant Word says on any topic?
Anyone lacking a search function or doesn't have a Strong's concordance in book form, can go to e-sword.net for a free one and then type in "carnal".
In Peace & Love! :)
I guess it is not necessarily amiss to refer from expert's opinion.
The related scriptures were actually given already by 'pilgrim777' earlier.
It is not surprising that some names will be highlighted as they had made very strong statements regarding the matter.
by KrispyKrittr on 2012/4/5 10:26:38
"You are either a slave to sin, or a slave to Jesus. You can not serve two masters. Therefore, if you are not a slave to Jesus (i.e. He is not your Lord and Master), then you are a slave to sin and have not been set free (saved). The Bible says you will love the one and hate the other. If you are a slave to sin, then you hate Jesus. A Christian who hates Jesus?? Thats like rock stars against drugs!"
I don't want to argue against being a slave to Jesus but I do want to be sure I understand what is being said here. I presume that Washer and MacArthur are not preaching 'sinless perfection' so what state is a man in who has been a slave to Jesus for 20 years and then one day he commits a sin? In that moment he was clearly not 'a slave to Jesus' so does he need to be regenerated all over again?
ps I am genuinely trying to understand what is being taught here. As it stands so far this begins to look like 'justification by sanctification' which is a deadly path.
TWO KINDS OF CHRISTIANS
The Apostle in I Corinthians 3.1 divides all Christians into two classifications. They are the spiritual and the carnal. A spiritual Christian is one in whom the Holy Spirit dwells in his spirit and controls his entire being. What is meant, then, by being carnal? The Bible employs the word "flesh" to describe the life and value of an unregenerated man. It comprises everything which issues from his sinful soul and body (Rom. 7.19).'Hence a carnal Christian is one who has been born anew and has God's life, but instead of overcoming his flesh he is overcome by the flesh. We know the spirit of a fallen man is dead and that he is dominated by his soul and body. A carnal Christian, therefore, is one whose spirit has been quickened, but who still follows his soul and body unto sin.
If a Christian remains in a carnal condition long after experiencing new birth, he hinders God's salvation from realizing its full potential and manifestation. Only when he is growing in grace, constantly governed by the spirit, can salvation be wrought in him. God has provided full salvation in Calvary for the regeneration of sinners and complete victory over the believer's old creation.
From "The Spiritual Man" by Watchman Nee
1 Corinthians 3: 1.—And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal.
The apostle here speaks of two stages of the Christian life, two types of Christians: “I could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.” They were Christians, in Christ, but instead of being spiritual Christians, they were carnal. “I have fed you with milk, and not with meat, for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet are ye able, for ye are yet carnal.” Here is that word a second time. “For whereas”—this is the proof—“there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul, and another, I am of Apollos, are ye not carnal?” Four times the apostle uses that word carnal. In the wisdom which the Holy Ghost gives him, Paul feels:—I can not write to these Corinthian Christians unless I know their state, and unless I tell them of it. If I give spiritual food to men who are carnal Christians, I am doing them more harm than good, for they are not fit to take it. I cannot feed them with meat, I must feed them with milk. And so he tells them at the very outset of the epistle what he sees to be their state. In the two previous chapters he had spoken about his ministry being by the Holy Spirit; now he begins to tell them what must be the state of a people in order to accept spiritual truth, and he says: “I have not liberty to speak to you as I would, for you are carnal, and you cannot receive Spiritual truth.” That suggests to us the solemn thought, that in the Church of Christ there are two classes of Christians. Some have lived many years as believers, and yet always remain babes; others are spiritual men, because they have given themselves up to the power, the leading and to the entire rule of the Holy Ghost. If we are to obtain a blessing, we must first decide to which of these classes we belong. Are we, by the grace of God, in deep humility living a spiritual life, or are we living a carnal life? Then, let us first try to understand what is meant by the carnal state in which believers may be living.
We notice from what we find in Corinthians, four marks of the carnal state. First: It is simply a condition of protracted infancy.
The second mark of the carnal state is this: that there is sin and failure continually. Paul says: “Whereas there is strife and division among you, and envying, are ye not carnal?”
A third mark which will explain further what I have been saying, is that this carnal state may be found in existence in connection with great spiritual gifts. There is a difference between gifts and graces. The graces of the Spirit are humility and love, like the humility and love of Christ. The graces of the Spirit are to make a man free from self; the gifts of the Spirit are to fit a man for work. We see this illustrated among the Corinthians. In the first chapter Paul says, “I thank God that you are enriched unto all utterance, and all knowledge, and all wisdom.” In the 12th and 14th chapters we see that the gifts of prophecy and of working miracles were in great power among them; but the graces of the Spirit were noticeably absent.
My last mark of the carnal state is that it makes a man unfit for receiving spiritual truths. That is what the apostle writes to the Corinthians: “I could not preach to you as unto spiritual; you are not fit for spiritual truth after being Christians so long; you can not yet bear it; I have to feed you with milk.” I am afraid that in the church of the nineteenth century we often make a terrible mistake. We have a congregation in which the majority are carnal men. We give these men spiritual teaching, and they admire it, understand it, and rejoice in such ministry; yet their lives are not practically affected. They work for Christ in a certain way, but we can scarce recognize the true sanctification of the Spirit; we dare not say they are spiritual men, full of the Holy Spirit.
From "The Master's Indwelling" by Andrew Murray
I am interested in Krispy's answer, too Ron.
When Jesus was writing to the 7 churches in Revelation, were they saved? (Rhetorical question).
Pilgrim
Ron:
a carnal Christian is someone who has been born of the Spirit but is walking in the flesh.
Pilgrim: Great definition
What is a Carnal Christian well we have many examples of what they are on this thread...
As Paul says: for ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
it would be better to ask paul and and john what they would call some who is a staunch believer who falles into a sin as you said ,,,,we would probaly misrepresent them
paul seems to be against the idea of carnal christan ,,becase people from his denomination and others ,take those verse spoken of in corinthians and create a doctrine ,wherethey say a christan and be saved and live a life of sin and carnality ,,and because of the twisting of the doctrine of the persarverence of the saints ,,and the combining of the two doctrines ,,,the out comes is a so called saved christan who doesnt need to repent of carnality ,,,,and this is what paul is againsts,,the doctrine of the carnal christian as taught in this manner by his denomination
ron i would think that the example that you set forth about the slave of christ ,who sins a twenty year perfect walk in christ ,,does he need to be regenerated again
to start with paul would laugh at that because he would believe that a person could not go i day with out falling short of the greatest comand to the love the lord your god with all your heart ,,loving god as he should be loved,people sin unknowing and unwillingly every day
but example say you as a true believer ,one day got exteremly angry during a time of testing .and yelled at you lovely wife and called her some bad name ,,,you dont need to be born again .and are still a slave of christ
and are not a carnal christians becasue of an odd act of sin in the flesh ,,your life in christ is not malined by odd acts in the flesh ,,you not a slave to sin ,but still a slave to christ ,and salve to the gift of repentance that he has granted you
washer does not in any way teach justafication through sanctification ,,but would teach evedence of true justafication is by continuing sanctification
if one has no evedence that gods is smashing idols
and sperating us ,and bringing us out of the old land of slavery ,,,,then he believes that is becasue your not saved and justafied in the first place
how can somebody have an encounter with god and not be changed
how can some body be a new creation ,with out any fruit of the spirit
iv listened to maby 100 of paul washers sermons ,i have a bit of an idea on what he teaches
blessings
Oh. 'Thank you', passerby. I just found Pilgrim's post on page one and he Did post all 10 verses.
Goodness, what happened after that?
I'll have to go back and read more to see if his post was acknowledged.
I was thinking of adding just Heb 5:11-6:2, but I better not, uh? :)
"Very strong statements", indeed - right you are.
I do love Phil 3:7-15 though. Very much.
Thank you again, dear friend!
You seem to write as you know Paul Washer personally..
Quote: washer does not in any way teach justafication through sanctification ,,but would teach evedence of true justafication is by continuing sanctification.
Evidence of True Justification is by continuing sanctification.....
So what excactly is required for a sinner to be saved and how do we know that they are saved?
Say for example someone who believed that Jesus was the Son of God and confessed it with his mouth.. Attended the discipleship course, then turns around for different reasons denies that he knew Christ...
Would he not be still be sealed with the Holy Spirit, would not God the Father be waiting for his prodigal? Would not the Holy Spirit that he was sealed with not be working away on the inside even though we couldn't see the "Evidence of True Justification"
a question ,,,,can a person who profeses christ be carnal and live in sin all his life ,and still be a christan
I can only say what John MacArthur said, mercy be upon him.
thats true passer by ,,,,,,,but what about when john says there is sin that leds to death ,and he says we should not pray for those who sin unto death ,,,im not point finers ,just scripture
Charity we must show, to show wrath never, 'vengeance is mine saith the Lord'.
To pray? First John 5:16-17 are among the most difficult verses in the bible, what really is meant here, what is sin unto death?
The question might be better asked looking at a modern translation of scripture. What is a so called carnal Christian? The answer is simple from the NIV translation. A carnal Christian is one who has not grown in Christ. They are still worldly in many areas of life.
Look at the background of Corithians. You had a young church that was trying to grow in the midst of a pagan culture. And I do mean pagan. The term 'corithianize' became similar to depravity in the ancient world. To say Corinth had loose morals would be putting it mildly.
Think of the Corinthians church as being in the midst of Sodom and Gomorah or Babylon of its day. Against this backdrop of open vice such as temple prostitution or homosexuality people were coming to Christ. This is the context of 1 Cor.6:11 when Paul tells the Corithians 'This is what some of you were'. These were new converts redeemed in Christ.
But as any new conver to Jesus, they are immature, worldly, anf bring baggage. They need to grow in Jesus. This is the background of the Corithian church. Simply put, a carnal Christian is an immature Christian who needs to grow in Jesus.
I think one of the earlier posters put it more simply. A carnal Christian is one who has been born of the Spirit yet still walking in the flesh. They need to grow in Jesus.
Bearmadter standing down.
"Quote: by brothagary on 2012/4/5 20:14:27
washer does not in any way teach justafication through sanctification ,,but would teach evedence of true justafication is by continuing sanctification "
this sounds like the older explanation that we are justified by faith but that genuine faith is justified by works. I have no problems with that.
"quote:
paul seems to be against the idea of carnal christan ,,becase people from his denomination and others ,take those verse spoken of in corinthians and create a doctrine ,wherethey say a christan and be saved and live a life of sin and carnality ,,and because of the twisting of the doctrine of the persarverence of the saints ,,and the combining of the two doctrines ,,,the out comes is a so called saved christan who doesnt need to repent of carnality ,,,,and this is what paul is againsts,,the doctrine of the carnal christian as taught in this manner by his denomination "
theology is often 'reaction' and it is always good to know the history of the theologian.
hi murrcol,,,,sorry if it sounds that way,,,brother im guilty of sometimes sounding like i know the apostal paul personaly ,as many of us are
i dont know if your asking me what i think about how a sinner is saved or our washer thinks
in my opinion and i would think that washer would be of a similar beleif accoring to his own testamony . according to your example ,,the reson why denied christ after a confession was becasue he ws not bornagaing or or seald with the spirit ,,,,if there was no repentence involved or conviction of sin ,,,if he confessed lord ,lord ,but did not begin to do the will of the father ,,if as you say he denied christ from his heart ,which is what i think you mean ,but i cant be sure with out you saying so ,,,he is lost still
the prodical son parable ,can proble be interpreted in differnt ways
i see the prodical as never someone who was seald with the spirit ,,his carnal desires show the state of his deprvity and vilness ,,but wile he lived in pleasure he was dead wile he lived ,,,but after he was humbled by trial ,and convicted of sin saw him self wallowing in the pig pen ,eating the rubish of this world ,turned form his sin in humility ,and went back to his father ,and was changed ,and then his father put on him a robe of his righeousness ,and he sat down at the wedding feast of the lamb
blessings
“Again in 7:14 the Apostle says: “I am carnal, sold under sin.” That is the proof of a spiritual and wise man. He knows that he is carnal, and he is displeased with himself; indeed he hates himself and praises the Law of God, which he recognizes because he is spiritual. But the proof of a foolish, carnal man is this, that he regards himself as spiritual and is pleased with himself.” Martin Luther Commentary on the Romans Chapter 7.
OJ
Reading many of the posts to your question Lamb99 you will no doubt realise that there are some difficult distinctions to make sense of in understanding those posts. Having just read your original question and the simplicity and loveliness of the enquiry I was minded to advice you that you yourself must work out the answer by walking and trusting Jesus to show you what carnality means to God.
Some of the posts take a doctrinal position and some speak out of experience. Even though experience can be wrong, they are still sound and do not contradict the doctrine if one's heart is right and one keeps to the simplicity of trusting God to show you how to think as He himself thinks.
We cant trust experiences by themselves because they may come out of ourselves. However, if what we experience is provoked by God Himself it will be clear to us, in our own hearts and minds what carnality is because God will give those experiences reality; His own reality.
The lesson about Peter is not simply that he denied Christ, thereby showing his fear of being uncovered as a disciple of Christ, and the possible consequences that may have had for Peter. Peter was told by the Lord that Satan had sought permission from God to sift him; Jesus said' when you return, strengthen your brethren'. Peter was convinced when he heard these words that he would not deny Christ. In the end he did, and as it is written 'he wept bitterly'. This bitter weeping means to KNOW that Christ is right when He tells us something about ourselves. This kind of experience produces strength because you now understand that you cannot trust your own estimation of yourself.
In short carnality is trusting in yourself, which is carnal by nature. Spiritual reality is trusting in God and denying yourself. I pray that your walk with Christ will be fruitful and full of good works, which is pleasing to God.
“Again in 7:14 the Apostle says: “I am carnal, sold under sin.” That is the proof of a spiritual and wise man. He knows that he is carnal, and he is displeased with himself; indeed he hates himself and praises the Law of God, which he recognizes because he is spiritual. But the proof of a foolish, carnal man is this, that he regards himself as spiritual and is pleased with himself.” Martin Luther Commentary on the Romans Chapter 7.
I am carnal...Paul says of himself. This is a statement of inability, of being out of favor with God, totally in touch with fleshly passions. I am immersed in my own bodily lusts. I am a slave to the dictates of lust. I am sold under sin. As a slave is helplessly sold to the highest bidder, Paul, speaking on behalf of all natural men, speaks of his slavery to carnal (fleshly) passions of the natural body.
The carnal man is the natural man and so is left to his own pitiful resources. The carnal man is a helpless man.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
This is not Paul's current testimony. He is speaking of his own experience and in that respect, a representative of all mankind. It is common practice both in speaking and writing to speak in the first person as a representative of all, on matters that are universal.
Paul's current testimony is definitely not one of carnality. Paul's present testimony is spirituality.
His latest testimony is that he is not carnal but spiritual.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
His current testimony is that he is led by the Spirit of God.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Pilgrim
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