When we lived in Maine, we got together with 3 other couples on Saturday evening. We'd enjoy a meal and fellowship together and then gather in the living room of this old farm house. There we would wait on the Lord. If you felt led to sing, you sang; testify, you testified;read a Psalm, you read a Psalm; and so on. By the end of the evening, reflecting back it was not difficult to discern Who was in charge and directing. It was all around one central theme. But there was no agenda. The whole was not seen until the parts were assembled together. It was wonderful. It was faith building. I really miss them. I have not yet been able to get anything like that going here in Louisiana. But I sure would like too. I think this is real church, like in the book of Acts.So what's your experience. Let's share and edify one another. Oh by the way, I'm not at all in harmony with this "G-12" movement that is a current fad. It does not stand up scripturally, imho. Hugs in Him,Lahry
House or Home Church Movement...you experience?
Not sure what the G-12 fad is...We house church. Our experience is much the same as yours. One major problem I have found is that once someone finds freedom from the man-made way of doing church... the level of committment to ANY body of believers is usually very low. I find that frustrating.But all in all... I wouldnt do it any other way.Krispy
Hi, Do you find that internet fellowship such as this helps?
http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain24.htmI found this link about the G-12 movement.Grace,Doug
Do you find that internet fellowship such as this helps?For me personally... this is not what I consider to be true fellowship. I mean, it is... but it's certainly not as intimate as it would be if we were all sitting in my living room. Only 2 or 3 people on here know my real name is not Krispy. On here you have to guard yourself... true fellowship is transparent.I do find forums like this to be beneficial because this is where I learn a lot from everyone, and it's where I learn to articulate my position on different topics. I do make friends... like I said I have 2 or 3 friends who have come to this forum from another one. But it's a much different friendship than I have with those in fellowship who I see on almost a daily basis.I don't believe the internet should be anyone's "fellowship"... unless you live in an igloo in Alaska by yourself... thousands of mile from civilization.Krispy
Oh by the way, I'm not at all in harmony with this "G-12" movement that is a current fad. It does not stand up scripturally, imhoCould you please elaborate? I would like to know what you disagree about it.
While I didn't make that quote I'll say that the G-12 is nothing more than a rehashed, warmed-over version of the Sheparding movement. The best article I've seen so far about the G-12 is this one:Banner.org--THE GOVERNMENT OF TWELVE (G12)
I have read some of the arguments about g-12. I see some things that are totally wrong with the arguments. One quote was this (which was in the link you posted)WHOA. Hang on a moment there! This makes the plan of salvation, and the mission of Jesus about "discipling the nations" (ruling them in a religious government) and not about individual relationships with the Saviour.Thats nothing of the mindset of the people. I have not read many articles about Bethany World Prayer Center and there use of " G-12", but i have MET them. The are not all about "governing" people, but seeing them truely born again and discipling them. They are the most humble people I, honestly, have ever met. It is crazy to think that a church that has a prayer room open 24 hours a day is all about themselves. How many churches do you know of that has a prayer room that is open 24 hours aday? I dare to say not many.. I'm not saying i am going to say that g-12 is God -ordained or for every church or anything like that. All i know is that these people have a heart and a yearning for people to be saved and discipled. I personally see nothing wrong with praying and fasting to see someone get saved and then disire christ to be formed in them through much prayer and disciplship. Im sure no one is denying that discipling belivers is biblical.. are they? All i know is that before my church started the cellular vision my church was LAZY! Oh yeah the people would come to church and listen, amen ,and all the other stuff. But now the people cry for souls to be saved. Im not defending the government of 12, saying its from God or not, i just know the heart of the people (or the ones i have met) that are doing this. My church has seen more people saved this last yr then ever before. It is not because of a plan or strategy. It is because of much prayer and fasting. People say that it is man centered. How can you say that someone that goes through weeks of disciplship classes, memorized lots of verses (all which is required to even have your own cell group) is focused on themselves. Let me point out that anything "spiritual" can be done fleshly. You can witness and be fleshly. If you are not doing it for the glory of GOd. I know that the people who I have met that are doing g-12 are sincerly wanting to see souls saved( building the kingdom of God), and not there own cell group (or kingdom).
Here is another thread that was started last Feb. on the subject of Home Churches Home ChurchesIn Him, Chanin
Sir, The last thing I wanted this thread to be, was a thread about G-12. Want to start one on that subject? Please do. Furthermore, I want to say that you make many valid statements about home groups and people in G-12. I do believe that most are hungry for souls. But Christ never established a "government of 12". He established a government of One, Jesus Christ being the head of the church. It is my understanding, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that in addition to it's "govenmental leadership" training, they insist on you going to an "encounter weekend". There, among other things, they teach you how to, according to these leaders, get victory over your carnal or sin nature. Their "methodology" is not at all biblical, as I understand it. Perhaps more can shed light on this. If you start another thread on G-12, I'll comment on my experiences with Bethany home fellowships. What I had hoped for, was that there are others out there who have enjoyed home meetings without heavy organized church influence, and would like to share a testimony about it. Edify and encourage. That is my heart. \\o/
That's the kind of dialog I had hoped this thread would turn in to. BTW, I think what you are doing in your home church is awesome and admirable. Would you like to catch us up to date on how that has progressed over the last year?
Hi Lahry,Gave this some thought and others may feel free to go ahead with another thread on the whole G-12 thing, only with this caveat, that it be done with courtesy to one another and fortunately we are blessed to have some great brethren here who already know that.So without degenerating it into that here, will just comment that as in most everything it's not always black and white but agree with you that as it is setup and laid out from the guidelines it can be most problematic. It may have been in that thread Chanin linked that there are some horror story's of control and manipulation. Also have a friend who attends a church that is running the program and it is of the WOF camp to begin with.What I had hoped for, was that there are others out there who have enjoyed home meetings without heavy organized church influence, and would like to share a testimony about it. Edify and encourage. That is my heart. \\o/And it shines through brother. Think there is much to that statement; "without heavy organized church influence" Seems a big difference between 'structure' and 'control'. A twist on this would be the 'church service' I attended last weekend in the park with a humble but uncompromising 'preacher', one of 'own' here. The reason for the quotes is that he is as much a servant as he is Gods spokesman and it showed as he not only spoke to the homeless attendee's but served and is serving, taking in a dear elderly lady off the streets into his home.Obviously this has had a profound effect on myself and it is all in the seemingly subtle simplicity of it all. The beauty of a conversion and baptism and the spontaneity of a sister leading us in singing "Amazing Grace" as he came up out of the water.And I don't know the half of it. This has been going on consistently for I believe 15 months now.Feeling apologetic for so much rambling at times throughout all these threads here and one of the lessons I picked up under the radar so to speak was that I need to reel it in a bit and think and pray more before hand. Yet still the compulsion and here is partly why and where it fits into Krispy's thoughts earlier.This 'site' is and isn't many things and agree that it cannot be a 'replacement' for a complete transparency all the time. But yet for some and will include myself here, there is a desire to find what I like to call 'like-hearted' fellowship. And wherever that can be found, even imperfectly (of course it always is) the draw is always toward that, be it in 4 walled church, outside or in a 'home' setting or even in this strange but beautiful gathering here. The positives are the perspectives and the distances that can be covered, it's stunning to think that we can fellowship with someone in India or Denmark or England or China, all over the world, don't think I will ever ceased to be amazed by that.Many do pour out their very hearts here and their love for the Lord, sharing and helping us all grow more and more into His image. The opportunities to pray for one another, weep and rejoice together... The ability to be challenged in our heart and change our mind!What brought me here originally has been redundantly espoused a bazillion times but it truly changed my life and in the biggest way made me realize the most important thing, that it changed 'my' life by the realization that it isn't about 'me'. Which is exactly what seems to be promoted in so much of our modern day 'Christianity' even all the while making the opposite claims.Some Dr. Tozer for perspective:"When the Apostle Paul said with yearning, “That I may know Him,” he was not speaking of intellectual knowledge. Paul was speaking of the reality of an experience of knowing God personally and consciously, spirit touching spirit and heart touching heart.We know that people spend a lot of time talking about a deeper Christian life—but few seem to want to know and love God for Himself.The precious fact is that God is the deeper life! Jesus Christ Himself is the deeper life, and as I plunge on into the knowledge of the triune God, my heart moves on into the blessedness of His fellowship. This means that there is less of me and more of God—thus my spiritual life deepens and I am strengthened in the knowledge of His will!"A.W.TozerAnd this ultimately is what it is all about. Liken to what happens here as a disciple making venture, the sermons and the fellowship all geared toward that 'end' even with all the tentacles that go in different directions. There is a sense of family as well as 'church' here and with the limitations still I have met and been privileged to come into more contact with the like-hearted than ever before. Count so many here true friends and brethren and my love for you all knows no bounds. It gets expressed in an often bumbling, fumbling manner....rambling always rambling. But much growth and tremendous blessings I have seen worked by the Lord through all of this amongst the brethren, so pardon my usual gushing it is not an means unto itself but unto Him.Been 'out of 'church' for over a year now as I felt led to leave, not for selfish reasons but just to try and 'regroup' and find out just what the Lord wants. From the extremes of WOF to a more 'normal' but modern setting with all the latest programs and such, dear people, love them but couldn't shake the spiritual reality that something was 'missing', not 'perfection' or 'what's in it for me?' But where is/was the Presence of the Lord?No man is an island, nor is a gathering the 'church'. Often times and sadly it can be just a social function with spiritual overtones.But what am I doing?It's difficult in that the pull is often toward 'shouldn't you be doing something... for the Lord?'But am finding that even more difficult is to just plain...Wait.Wait on the Lord and His timing.And in all honesty and from much that I have gathered here and in other resources that stemmed out of the brethren's comments both dead and alive, there is an old train of thought that we can do a greater harm in going out before we have been reduced to nothing but Him and there is still much work to be done in that area, much to be absorbed into the heart from the head, much to learn still. All I know is that I want to be obedient to the sense of; "Whatever He tells you to do, do it" Regardless of how long it takes and while the tension rages between compulsion and constraint.So, there it is, the progress of a dead man walking and his struggle to develop a spiritual vocabulary to give expression to what the Lord is doing. Sorry if I got all off track here, there is much to be praiseworthy of the fellowship in cyberspace methinks even with it's drawbacks and to come back to the question at hand I think there are many who are just searching for some reality in fellowship no matter where it takes place.
There does need to be structure... that scriptural, and how that structure is to look can be found very easily in the Bible. Today, however, especially in America the typical structure we see is far from scriptural. We don't see denominations with it's "Presidents" and committees and all of that. Scripture teaches plurality of leadership. Elders, not "one man show" pastors. When Paul wrote to the Galations, or Corinthians... he was not writing to the Corinthian Church on 2nd Ave down by the Exxon station. He was writing to the believers in the city of Corinth. These folks met in homes... and they were linked together... and were overseen by a group of elders. When these house churches met together one would have a song, one a teaching, etc etc... and history shows us that they shared in the Agape Feast... otherwise known as the Lord's Supper. It wasn't the shot glass and saltine crumb we know today... it was a full meal with a special emphasis on the bread and fruit of the vine as symbols of Christ sacrifice.The object was fellowship. Fellowship is not looking at the back of someone's head for an hour while we watch the show at the front of the theater... I mean sanctuary. What we see on a typical Sunday morning in a typical church is nothing more than a lite version of the Catholic Mass... without the mass. Less filling... tastes great.Krispy
I've thought about starting home groups. My favorite singer, Keith Green, had a home church. My former Church started out in a home.The home churches in my area, much like the institutional churches in my area, are pretty messed up though. Most of them are WOF.(I usually make that into and anacronym W.O.lF.)
The home churches in my area, much like the institutional churches in my area, are pretty messed up though.That can happen... thats why it's so important that we closely follow Pauls guidelines for leaders in his letters to Timothy & Titus.One problem that gets some house churches off track is that at times you get people in who have left the institutional church because of hurts... and even out of rebellion. I think most people in the house church movement were motivated in that direction because of bad experiences. However, if a person wallows in that and doesnt move beyond the hurts... it can be a problem, and soon the group is more focused on being mad at the institutional church... and not focused on Jesus.As for WOF... dont get me started! I'm w/you! ... nuff said.Krispy
The church I attend started as a home church. I think it's great, if that's where the Lord wants you to be.It's so important to have others to be a part of the body (forsake not the assembling of yourselves). I'm thankful for the fellowship and hope and pray that folks don't use the internet as an alternative.I think cyberfellowship is okay but it's not the same as being "live."
Glory to God. From one rambler to another, thanks for rambling. I was blessed. Hugs. I totally agree with your post. I am currently in a "pentecostal/holiness" church that is really focused on worship. The pastor is not in a hurry to do anything but be sensative to the Holy Spirit. Visitors who love the Lord come and testify that they sensed a manifestation of His presence when they entered in. Of course the saints are the true tabernacle, but it's the worship I think that makes the difference. About the internet. I've seen amazing things happen here. What I really like the most is for the most part it's "blind". I can't make any value judgements about the way you look, what you wear, what kind of car you drive, etc. All I get to see is what God sees, the heart. I like that alot. I've seen miracles take place, deliverence, live worship. And now, I'm here. I am so blessed by this place. A freind of mine refered me here. I'm so glad he did. I have discovered a collection of folks that desire more of God in their lives, and love men of old who preached holiness that comes as natural as can be when there is a personal and ongoing relationship with God. Alleluia. So let us all give thanks for all the blessings God has for us and is sharing with us. I have seen so many divine appointments online between the messenger and the recipient who may be half way around the world. I went to India in 2001 at the invitation of a pastor there whom I had never met before. It was the most awesome experience I have ever had. I was living on the high road of love and fellowship with folks that loved me, prayed for me, and treated me far better than I deserved, even though they had so very little. I still correspond with them via this internet. My heart is to return to India again before I get too old. I guess I brought this topic up because I desire others to experience the blessedness of being in a meeting with like minded believers under the influence of the manifest presence of God. To me, it is just unequalled. Anyone who enters in can tell it, even unsaved. They may not understand, but they cannot deny that they have been influenced by the presence of God. Can we afford to overlook such an intimate opportunity to bring blessing on ourselves, our families, and hopefully, the lost? I think not. So I would encourage anyone to give it a try. We are hoping to get a meeting off the ground this coming Saturday Evening. Please pray for us and that God will pour out His Spirit on all who gather there. I'll let you know what happens. God bless you again, Mike. I love you my brother. I need your encouragement, your testimony, everything. I love those Tozer quotes too. What a man of God. Love it. Hugs all around to everyone here. As our brother here so well stated, it's never been about "us", it's always been about Jesus. Get connected by faith to the living God, through the Son, by the Holy Spirit.
I guess I brought this topic up because I desire others to experience the blessedness of being in a meeting with like minded believers under the influence of the manifest presence of God."The manifest presence of God", as you call it, happens anytime 2 or more believers are gathered in his name. It's not an experienced based phenom. I get a little unnerved by that only because I know a lot of people who worship God in a quiet reverent manner... and people who worship God in a contemporary manner. Lets not dismiss that. The Lord is always present when there is unity (true unity, not ecumenism) among the brethern in His Name.Other than that... I like what you have to say.(I used to be "Charismatic" when we were in the institutional church ... so I am not speaking about something I dont know about.)Your brother in Christ...Krispy
I live across from Jimmy Swaggarts Church. I went to most of the services at the Thanksgiving Camp Meeting last year. At the last service on Sunday night, the praise team and choir sang till they were sung out. The musicians played until they were played out. Then we all sat in silence for about 45 mins. The "manifest presence of God", that "something" that is discernable was so alive and wonderful. Everyone there knew it, eveyone sat in silence "before" the Lord. Each persons relationship with God is just that, personal. As long as it's going on, they don't need to attend "Worship 101". The first time I experienced "His presence", I was in a catholic church at a men's retreat. I was hungry for God and in desperate need of deliverence from myself. I had no prior church experience except catholic. Nothing. All of a sudden, God showed up in my heart. I was engulfed with His love, His mercy, His grace, His forgiveness. I began to weep. It had nothing to do with what was happening in the building. I ran outside. The whole night sky was filled with a zillion stars. They all seemed to be worshipping God. I stood alone in the middle of this parking lot and worshipped. It was awesome and unforgetable. So I am not questioning, judging, or commenting on anyone's personal experience but my own. Hugs in Him.
Just to throw in my small experience, I saw a lot of worldliness in the house church worship I attended about 2 years ago. One I was invited to, the bible study was in a mansion. When the lady I was with went (nonchristian) went around telling people she was an AWOL army recruit, and would the government call her in because of 9-11, the church people had no idea how to respond to such things. They didn't tell her anything biblical at all, nothing. They just were shocked. I was still a new christian and just taking this all in, wondering how these christians (?) would respond in love and truth, it was disappointing they didn't know how to speak God's will. Another house church meeting started out strong, evangelizing and wholeheartedness, but after a while, it was not growing to holiness, but rather worldliness and money, after the leader got a church leadership position with salary. I could see favoritism for those with money and popularity, falling away from Christ's teachings and just too worldly. I believe if Christians would stop treating christianity like a social club, and follow Christ, and love God wholeheartedly like we are supposed to, we will have much more wisdom and true love for God, and not having fellowship be lowered and lowered to the point of overwhelming disobedience.
So I am not questioning, judging, or commenting on anyone's personal experience but my own. Hugs in Him....nor am I, so long as it is scriptural. If something ain't in scripture then it is, by definition, unscriptural. If it's unscriptural then I will raise a red flag. I'm not saying that you had unscriptural experiences!! Please dont misunderstand. I cant make that judgement since you havent really descibed your experiences. All I am saying is that experiences are the last thing we should go on to determine if something is of God.As far as Jimmy Swaggart is concerned... he does not fit the qualification of a church leader. I'm not saying God does not reach people thru his ministry. But if God does reach people thru it, it is in spite of Swaggart and not because of him. I believe he is born again... I have no reason to doubt that he has repented of what he did back in the 1980's. However...1 Timothy 3:2-7 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover he must have a good report of them which are withoutlest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. Swaggart soiled his reputation by his sexual sin in front of the whole world. Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without. He brought reproach on the name of Jesus Christ. He can (and I believe he has) be forgiven... but he cant be restored to a position of church leadership.Am I judging him? No... I pray he is closer to God now more than he ever was. But when he steps into the pulpit... we are to judge all things by scripture. He is in a position that Paul forbids him to be in.It's the same for all these pastors and church leaders who have been divorced... or have children who are out of control. We need to learn what the Bible says.We're really off the topic here... Krispy
Good points. There are biblical standards for leadership, to not go along with them is disobedience to God's Written word. Everyone has the opportunity for eternal life and be in fellowship, but not everyone can be the leader. God does use disobedience to accomplish His purposes if He wants, He did for me, He also used Judas Iscariot to accomplish His purpose, but that doesn't mean the disobedient one He uses is getting a reward, they will probably be punished for their evils, Even though God uses disobedience for His purposes.
... exactly. We tend to think that because someone is a motivating speaker, or a song brings a tear to our eyes... then the speaker must be "annointed". Not so. If we get goosebumps it must be the Holy Spirit. Not always.
My, my, how did this go so sour? Let me ask you this, since you chose to got there. When was the last time you looked at your speedometer and noticed you were a mile or two over the speed limit. Is you "sin" any more acceptable to God. If you are looking for perfection in Tozer, Ravenhill, Wilkerson, or any of these, you wont' find it. What Swaggart did was wrong. Nobody paid a bigger price than he did. Yet he did not give up, why should he. The entirety of the church world turned thumbs down on him. Yet he has persevered. Thank God. Your criteria of "perfection" does not hold up biblically under grace, beloved. No body I know of today is preaching a purer message of the cross than he. FYI, I do not attend his church regularly. I need to do ministry, not spectate. So I am part of a much smaller church ministry. You still won't find perfection in Jimmy. He'd be the first to admit it. But then, who will dare step up to the plate and claim that they are, bishop, evagelist, deacon, or you, or I? If not, better be careful about the measure you use to judge others. These things have a way of coming back on you. Now, can we get back on track here? :)
At the behest of the Lord, we've been having prayer/praise meetings and Bible study at my home for over 10 years now. I don't know much about home church "movements" or anything...I just know what the Lord instructed us to do. It's been marvelous. It's amazing how much of the Word you can learn once you get the "church filter" off of it. I do miss the larger gatherings at times but not enough to have to go and endure the unscriptural nonsense that rules most "churches". God is doing marvelous things with His Body. The churches, in large part, do not accept what He is doing...as usual. But He will do it anyway without getting permission. Oh..and I love brother Swaggart. But...he should have left the public ministry. He's not blameless anymore in the eyes of the outsider. He should not be an overseer. He does have a marvelous praise ministry though. I'm sure he has repented. Sin is such a tragedy..in any of us, whether publicly revealed or not. God bless brother Jimmy.
Hugs Steven, thanks for sharing. Thanks also for letting some mercy show through you. Brotherly Hugs.
I'm not saying God does not reach people thru his ministry. But if God does reach people thru it, it is in spite of Swaggart and not because of him.In love I would hope that this could be said of me someday, "that God reached people in spite of me, not because of me."
God doesn't recognize a house church or an institutional church, he simply recognizes the church.
My, my, how did this go so sour?Sour? I thought I was very gracious toward Swaggart. Re-read my post.Let me ask you this, since you chose to got there. When was the last time you looked at your speedometer and noticed you were a mile or two over the speed limit. Is you "sin" any more acceptable to God. If you are looking for perfection in Tozer, Ravenhill, Wilkerson, or any of these, you wont' find it. There is a huge difference between speeding and sexual immorality. You're comparing apples to oranges. I'm not condemning Swaggart for his sin... merely pointing out what the Biblical criteria is for church leadership. Swaggart has repented, as far as I know, and therefore he is right with God. But he forfeited his right to leadership.What Swaggart did was wrong. Nobody paid a bigger price than he did. Yet he did not give up, why should he. The entirety of the church world turned thumbs down on him. Yet he has persevered. Thank God. So I guess obedience to scripture takes a back seat?Your criteria of "perfection" does not hold up biblically under grace, beloved. No body I know of today is preaching a purer message of the cross than he. Even Benny Hinn has some truth in his teaching... that doesnt mean that he is not a heretic. (Not calling Swaggart a heretic, just making a point.) God's Word does not come back void, even if preached by someone who is in disobedience. I've know people who have succesfully led people the Lord who they themselves were living in wretched sin. Doesnt excuse their disobedience one iota.Joyce Meyer is in direct disobedience to Pauls command that a woman not teach men... yet people do get saved thru her ministry. Not because of her disobedience... but because of God's Word. However, that does not mean that we should forget what the Bible says and condone her ministry. (Not to mention the fact that she is W.O.F. and that is a gross heretical doctrine... making her a heretic.)By the way... when did I ever use the word "perfection" in anything I said? And I never once gave MY definition of ANYTHING. I quoted word for word from the BIBLE. If you dont like it, I'm not the one you should be offended at.better be careful about the measure you use to judge others. These things have a way of coming back on you.I'm not judging Swaggart as to whether he is saved. However Paul exhorts us to weigh (judge) all things by scripture. And that is what I have done. I can read it clearly spelled out in Paul's letters to Timothy and Titus what the qualifications of church leadership are... and Swaggart does not meet it.If we use your mentality and misunderstanding of judging in a Biblical way... then I suppose tomorrow if Michael Jackson decides to start a church you'll be all for it? I doubt you would be... and wouldnt you be judging?There... now we can get back on track.Krispy
Through the ages I have personal watched as Home Churches, Home Bible studies, Navigators...etc I have watched them come, been involved, and watched them go. If it be of God to have it around then he will lead, you do as commanded and when it is no longer his will...it will fade. Do not try to recreate something that God does not command you to do just because it worked before and/or gave you warm fuzzies....to do so might not be in the will of God. Then you could be setting yourself up for the Devil to squeeze your heart and we know what kind of problems that would make.Personally....take it to God in prayer and follow his direction....not your's, not mine, not our's....but God's alone. If there seems to be dryness in the spiritual parts of your life it might be God's way of purifing your heart for him alone to be seated there. Ephesians is the road map to a union with God....Madame Guyon's writings are a detail map of Ephesians that even John Wesley used to walk closer with God when his trip to the Americas failed so badly.Home meetings and everything is good when directed...but always encourage everyone to attend their local churches to edify others and to pray for others. If it be of God it will continue...when it is no longer for whatever reason....then it will fade. Your spiritual growth is more important to God than some meeting format. He loves you more than you will ever know until the day you are blessed to feel that bright light penatrates your entire being and you are walking up to see him (and hopefully you will not be brought back to life to be separated from it like I was.)God is good and loving even if it does not seem so.PJ
Home meetings and everything is good when directed...but always encourage everyone to attend their local churches to edify others and to pray for others.If a house church is structured in the way that we see in the Bible... then these things you mention happen. There is no difference. I believe format does matter. In my opinion, the way the institutional churches normally "format" their meetings it quenches true fellowship. I know I've been part of several institutional churches, very involved in their "programs" etc... and after a year or so was amazed that 99.9% of the people in those churches didnt even know what I do for a living. Thats sad. Thats why we decided to follow what we see in the NT. I dont think God phased out the way the apostles and the early church met... I believe the Catholic Church, as it emerged, destroyed what God had set up... and made the institution the primary focus... and not Jesus. Made the preist (pastor) the central figure.Do you know where you'll find the strongest Christians? Not in America. In China... the underground church... where they have no buildings, no programs, no "purpose driven" stuff... they meet in homes, caves, etc etc. Persecution makes them strong, and they have no need for 2 million dollar buildings. I work in architecture... I can tell you this from years of experience... alot of churches are more concerned about building cathedrals then they are the fellowship of their own people. People would be surprised if they could sit in on some of the meetings I've been at with pastors and building committees.Krispy
Do you know where you'll find the strongest Christians? Not in America. In China... the underground church... Hi Krispy,I agree with you, but I also disagree. The God over the Chinese Christians is the same God of the American Christians. Persecution doesn't make a man holy, but it does scare off the uncommitted. What makes a Chinese Christian strong is the same thing that makes an American Christian strong, abiding faith that continually seeks God. The strongest Christians will be found in the secret prayer closet. And they can be found dispersed all over the world.This is not to say that we shouldn't honor those who trust God in the face of persecution, or cease to exhort those who live in peace to seek God all the more. Just a different perspectiveIn Christ,Jeremy Hulsey
Jeremy,The strongest Christians will be found in the secret prayer closet.This is excellent! Just because we do not have persecution here (yet) does not give us any reason not to be held just as accountable for being a "strong" christian. We are all called to become Christ -like, to be holy no matter our circumstances. if we really love God, we will live for Him alone- no matter where we are. :-) If we don't, it is all talk.In Him, Chanin
I agree with you, but I also disagree. The God over the Chinese Christians is the same God of the American Christians. Persecution doesn't make a man holy, but it does scare off the uncommitted. What makes a Chinese Christian strong is the same thing that makes an American Christian strong, abiding faith that continually seeks God. The strongest Christians will be found in the secret prayer closet. And they can be found dispersed all over the world.Well... you're correct of course. But I think you understand what I was trying to say. Let me rephrase it to say the strongest "churches" are found in China. I didnt mean to say there are no strong Christians in America.
I have noticed that when God has poured out his Holy Spirit and caused Revival after Revival...it was over the Churches. So if God brought blessings and it was over all the Churches in the given area that he caused all this to happen....how can we in our infinite wisdom put down what God has blessed time and again? Maybe the people did not know what you did for a living because God put you there to focus on others and not others on you....you know keep the ego out and the love in....there must of been reasons why God put you there in the first place. And if you did not learn the lessons he had planned for you and just left....then you will have the lesson plan over and over until you get through it. These have been my experiences anyways. I think if you study J. Edwin Orr's information on Revival you will see .... God blessed the churches....all of them in the given area...so who are we to cut down what God blesses? What good are we doing by telling others in our life this information against the churches? Would you rather a person you told not go anywhere at all?What about what Jesus said to his 12 in the New Testament concerning the guy who was doing stuff outside of them.....did he not tell them.....??An interesting thought!By the way....got to tell you....I own some stock in Krisp Kreme donuts!!! And what a bargain the stock is!!! And I love your drive and your love for God! PJ
I think the definition of "strong" Christian is not defined by what level of physical persecution one suffers. I finished reading the book "The heavenly Man" about brother Yun's life/testimony in China. It brought tears to my eyes, great conviction and many other things. I thought "Wow, those are some STRONG Christians, they truly are forsaking all for the sake of Christ, I feel so inadequate". However, when my husband and I were speaking of the fictional account of bro. Palacki (the one who supposedly ripped up a check for $3million from the weathly/lukewarm western Christians), on one hand we were agreeing he was right about the state of Western Christianity. However, on the other hand, who is to determine who suffers MORE for the cause of Christ? In that letter, there was an element of pride---pride of suffering MORE than others.........looking down and putting a derogatory label on others whom the LORD Himself alloted "different" forms of sufferings/trials. Who are we to judge in such a way?In the West, we do have financial wealth in comparison to most of the World. Even so, what I think some Middle Eastern/Asian/Eastern Block Christians fail to understand, is that we have MANY trials to overcome here. On every side we are tempted by the lusts of the flesh----sexually, materially, social status wise, etc.-------having the comforts of life DO negatively impact a Christian's life----Where there is MUCH world, there is also much to overcome and MUCH to forsake for the kingdom's sake. What has in the past been called a "christian" nation has now become the world's cesspool of iniquity. We transport more Porn throughout the world than any other nation. We have the highest divorce rate in the world. Yes, we are among the richest nations of the world (right now anyways), but we also, as believers in Christ Jesus, have MUCH to overcome. So to put it more precisely: Christian strength is directly related not to WHERE one lives and the level of "outward/physical" persecution, it relates to HOW one overcomes in the life GOD has given them----whether they have "much" or "little", whether they are beaten outwardly for Christ's name, or are maligned "quietly" and overcome in Christ-likeness........each of us has a life to DIE to----where ever God has placed us. Just my two cents. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy
However, when my husband and I were speaking of the fictional account of bro. Palacki (the one who supposedly ripped up a check for $3million from the weathly/lukewarm western Christians), on one hand we were agreeing he was right about the state of Western Christianity. However, on the other hand, who is to determine who suffers MORE for the cause of Christ? In that letter, there was an element of pride---pride of suffering MORE than others.........looking down and putting a derogatory label on others whom the LORD Himself alloted "different" forms of sufferings/trials. Who are we to judge in such a way?I am assuming that this is the same account that Ed posted in ORAL ROBERTS VISIONUnder the title "Financing the End Time Harvest"Would sure like some clarification if this is indeed fictional. If so, that is truly sobering, why concoct a 'story' that has that much emphasis and poignancy under the banner of Christianity by in effect telling a lie? If it is indeed found to be just that, a 'story', it should be disregarded. In this case sentiment doesn't equal truth, that's a complete contradiction to what we are, no matter what the point is trying to be made.Doesn't make any sense whatsoever to discuss what level of pride is in a false story. The pride is in the intention in the first place, if that is the case. Hope somebody can clear this up.Dont see any parralel's to Jesus use of parables here either, not in the way that was written.
Now I see what is going on.This is not an article but a chapter excerpt from a fictional book entitled;Dawn of Liberty (Secret of the Rose #4)by Michael Phillipshttp://www.tyndale.com/products/details.asp?isbn=0-8423-4293-1Whatever intent or misunderstanding may be of just innocence. It was stated in the thread (that Ed posted) prior:"The following is an article that I’ve had for some time, and happened upon it once more just a few days ago. I believe it is something every Christian should read and take to heart. I urge you to take the time, and read it carefully, and let the truth of it speak to you. With love in Christ,Michael Boldea Jr.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~So, that does change the paramaters here a bit and wonder if he knew where this came from. But regardless, was under the impression that this was an account of something that actually happened and don't see how anyone else wouldn't have gotten that impression.Perhaps I am just confusing the issue here, maybe what you meant was the content of what was said prior to the 'article', my apologies. But the way this whole thing was put together, blending in the fictional "Palaki Account"...If that had been stated from the outset...
Crsschk,No, I didn't mean to "blend" fact with fiction. Actually, I just learned the Palacki story was just that, a story, not a true factual event. I thought it WAS a true event. In an email sent to me the other day, Andrew Strom clarified this story, which he also sent out as "true": "From: Andrew Strom [-Moderator].Dear friends,A number of people seem confused over whether the piece that we published yesterday "Dawn of Liberty" by Michael Phillips was fact or fiction. I want to apologise, because I should havemade this clear. (Actually, when you visit a number of web-sites that carry this article, they do not state whether it is fact or fiction either - which leads to confusion for us all).That piece was actually written by a novelist who I understand specializes in "reality-based" fiction. He takes real historical people and times, and writes fictional events around them to"make a point" in his novels. Thus the persecuted leaders that he mentions - Wurmbrand, Duduman, Vins and Solzhenitsyn were all real people - and there really was a huge question as to whether "Western-style" Christianity with all its 'razmataz' and hype was really going to help or hinder the true gospel when the Iron Curtain opened up. The author conveys all thisbrilliantly - but it is actually a work of FICTION. It was certainly based on reality, but there never was an actual leader named Dieder Palacki who rebuked a crowd of Western Christians and tore up a 3 million dollar check! (-Perhaps some of them may have liked to do it!)"My point in bringing this up was to speak to a mindset, not the actual story itself. Many believe Christians who suffer physically for the sake of Christ---torture, rape, death, etc are "stronger" Christians. I think that type of mindset can lead to a form of pride for those suffering and a possibly a wrong mindset for those whom God has not appointed to suffer in that manner, but other manners. In any case, a broad brushing is not a good thing to do concerning Christians and WHO is doing more for the kingdom in dying to self and living unto Him. Blessings in Him, Cindy :-)
This is simply a FYI. I obtained this article from www.handofhelp.com. Although I do not know Michael Boldea personally, I am certain he was unaware of this and will let them know that the story was fictitious and am confident they will either remove it or explicitly show that the article is not true.As far as suffering, those of us in the West are going to have our opportunity to suffer for Christ soon. Very soon...If we're going to follow Christ, it's going to cost us everything. 2Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
Hey Ed,Was planning on doing the same, being that he thought it was an article. Didn't think there was really any attempt to deceive there, it just took a little while to sort it out.Cindy,No, I didn't mean to "blend" fact with fiction. Actually, I just learned the Palacki story was just that, a story, not a true factual event. I thought it WAS a true event.Nor you either, again it was just confusing and at first it did get me a little ruffled, obviously ;-) Had first read it in the thread Ed had posted and figured you were referring again to the same. I too was under the impression it was real and when you said 'fiction' I thought, 'what?'That piece was actually written by a novelist who I understand specializes in "reality-based" fiction. He takes real historical people and times, and writes fictional events around them to... Good to hear the Andrew was able to get it straightened out as well. That explanation also helps, had seen it listed under 'historical' and at the same time as fiction and suspected that it may have been something on this order... Kind of like those "based on actual event's/people type's of things". Good that this is getting clarified, sure wish it had been true though...