Can we lose our salvation? Let's ask the "Prince of Preachers"

All these quotes are true and they are applicable to a Christian who thinks that he has lost his salvation because of his sin. There is no sin that Blood of Jesus cannot cleanse. But these quotes cannot be used by a man as a license for Sin thinking that his sins are already forgiven. Such quotes are like fire; if they are in right hand it can be used in a constructive way but in wrong hands can result in destruction.

Christians can be deceived in two ways which can be compared to two sides of a coin. One side of Christians get into an unbelief that their sins are so bad that they cannot be forgiven and another side are people who think that all their sins are forgiven so they can live a fleshly life. Both are deceived and the medicine for one (verse or quote) can be poison to another.

Please do not ask can Christian be deceived?
Matthew 24:24-For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the ELECT.

You cannot lose your salvation like losing/misplacing your wife.

But you can fall away. The Bible talks about falling away. Falling away from what?

One can fall away from his wife or husband (divorce).

It is not the Lord's fault that one chooses to fall away.

He that endures to the end will be saved.

2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Did you know this was in the Bible?

According to God's Word, it is possible to:

let the things which you have heard slip (Heb. 2:1)
go astray (Mt. 18:12,13)
err from the faith (1 Tim. 6:10,21)
err from the faith and overthrow the faith of others (2 Tim. 2:18)
lose your savour (saltiness) (Lk. 14:34,35)
be offended by Jesus (Mt. 11:6; Mk. 14:27,29)
fall away from grace (Gal. 5:4)
believe for awhile but in time of temptation fall away (Lk. 8:13)
be offended, betray one another and hate one another (Mt. 24:10)
have your faith shipwrecked (1 Tim. 1:19)
turn back and no longer follow Jesus (Jn. 6:66)
forsake the right way and go astray (2 Pet. 2:15)
stop abiding in Christ and as a branch, be withered and thrown away (Jn. 15:6)
be offended (Jn. 16:1)
turn aside after Satan (1 Tim. 5:15)
depart from the faith, having your conscience seared with a hot iron (1 Tim. 4:1-2)
turn your ears away from the truth and turn unto fables (2 Tim. 4:4)
acquire an evil heart of unbelief and depart from the living God (Heb. 3:12)
fall away to the point where you can’t be renewed to repentance (Heb. 6:6)
refuse Him that speaketh from heaven (Heb. 12:25)
become lukewarm and get spit out of the body of Christ (Rev. 3:15,16)
not remain faithful and be hurt by the second death (Rev. 2:10,11)
have God take away your part from the tree of life and in the holy city (Rev. 22:19)
be led away with the error of the wicked and fall from your steadfastness (2 Pet 3:17)
be carried away by all kinds of strange doctrines (Heb. 13:9)

Pilgrim

I will not enter into this discussion and encourage you to continue on with caution.

As for the topic i see many Scripture supports both sides, I have not made up my mind yet where I stand. One scripture you may want to further look at Krispy is in 2 Peter verse 1

It says tehre quote "...even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction" later it says their destruction does not slumber.

Now this one phrase "the Lord who bought them"

It seem to say they where bought with the blood of Christ and later they end up in destruction.

I love Spurgeon and the other reformed writers and would recommend anyone to read them any day, but for me we need look first at scripture in its fullness.

And atleast for me when going to the scriptures i see both to be true, in one sense we can not Lose our salvation, in another i see it is not impossible and actually many many passages and verses seem to imply once we are saved we should work on our salvation with fear and trembling. etc etc and all the warnings in scripture would seem useless if there where no possibility at all for us to not ever lose our salvation.

I do not know nor trying to convince anyone what to believe or what scripture says in this matter, just that we all study and pray and maybe God will shed light on this for us.

And again a cautious warning to keep this thread upbuilding and edifying for all who read. We are a testimony to the world with our word and wording.

brother Christian

Don't touch your TV dial, we are in control.

You are now entering the realm of the dogma zone.

See ya on another thread.

Pilgrim

I know Krispy, its just a have many occasions where myself have been "sucked in" but i am convinced Brothers in Christ can speak, discuss and share scriptures without becoming a shootout with scriptural ammunition and just edify and stir one another up to study more fervent to know him and his word and to edify one another and build ourselves up in the most holy faith. of this i am convinced and i pray we would see that more and more

Hi KK

What are your thoughts on this part of scripture then? I listened to it on MP3 this weekend, and it jolted me a bit.

Hebrews 6:4-9
For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put [Him] to an open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, [it is] rejected and near to being cursed, whose end [is] to be burned. But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.

Hebrews 10:26-30
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on [the testimony of] two or three witnesses.
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The LORD will judge His people."

Krispy, Krispy, Krispy! What has come over you? lol.
How long have you been on this forum and did you not consider this subject is a firecracker waiting to go?!

Anyway I think sree made a lot of good points.

As for me I was a ardent defender of OSAS years ago, but after years of reading the bible (over 30) I cannot reconcile that position with what I read in scripture. That's just me. I know others take a different view.

Eternal security IS true. We are eternally secure IN Christ....if we remain in Him. If we do not remain, but walk away from Christ, how can we secure? I think that is what the book of Hebrews is teaching.

I'll leave it at that and have no more comments.

Krispy: :-) this is the equivalent of opening the door and throwing a snake into the crowd is it not?

Actually it is a good topic for us to dive into scripture and really study and pray rather than simply adopting that which we have been taught in our denomination.

Blessings.

Amen to what you say, Dave.

Krispy, I'm not here to fight, either.

I don't believe in the security of the unbeliever. And how could we ever say that a believer could never fall into unbelief and fall away when we have the Word of God to show us so many examples? I wish it was so easy to just say, "they weren't saved and never knew Jesus".

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in DEPARTING from the living God.

Departing from the Living God are very strong words.

Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest ANY MAN FALL after the same example of unbelief.

Anyway, I just wanted to add this and I don't have anything else to say except the Lord bless you all, richly.

Pilgrim

The man whose grand obsession is Jesus, who makes Jesus the pre-emminent one, who wants to always talk about his passion, Jesus, he is the man of fellowship and grace and love. What has this got to do with this thread, probably nothing.......... bro Frank

_______________

I just love what you wrote here Frank!! Oh Lord hear my prayer, make JESUS the passion of my life. As I live and breath let my thoughts be continually on HIM!!
Amen!!

God Bless you Frank
mj

Now that I have time to reply...

This is a topic that, like Christian, I do not think I have landed on totally. There are much more than two or three proof texts on either side to consider. This topic really takes in the very nature of our salvation, and that is a big topic.

Those who say salvation cannot be lost seem to focus on a fairly limited selection of verses and try to explain others away. Those who believe in conditional salvation will likewise focus on their favorites...and so it goes. But I wonder if we sometimes do not have a somewhat skewed view of salvation that leads us to one side or the other.

There are a good number of verses that speak to holding our hope to the end, of enduring to the end, and of casting not away your confidence. There are others that speak to turning away unto perdition. So it seems that one can indeed lose his salvation. Yet we know from other scriptures that we cannot lose our salvation by an act of sin, nor can anyone else steal our salvation from us. It appears, to me anyway, that the only way I can lose it is to willfully turn from it. Yet I know this does not mean that every man who we might call a backslider has lost his salvation.

Like I said before, I do not have a totally clear understanding of the issue. I am still coming to an understanding of this. But this one thing I do know. I am going to walk as close to Jesus as I can so that I do not have to worry about it.

very good post twayneb (travis?sorry if remember wrongly)

I think Tozer said upon asked if he believed in eternal security that he did for him self but for others he was not so sure. I do not think he meant that in a prideful "I am better christian then you are" way but rather as you write "I am going to walk as close to Jesus as I can so that I do not have to worry about it."

Hi hmmhmm...

That is a great statement. On a personal level, I cannot think of ANYTHING that would cause me to walk away from the Lord. Because of the Lord, this world has been ruined for me...and I am glad for it.

That said: I think that there is a difference between "losing salvation" and literally "walking away" from it. The Scriptures are clear about people who run ahead and do not continue in the faith. The warning in 2nd John, Hebrews 10 and elsewhere seems quite clear.

One of my older sisters walked faithfully with Christ throughout her life...until very recently. As a teenager (before I was a believer), I used to wake up at night watching her pray over me in tears. I would pretend that I was asleep and no one knew (or cared) that she was there. She led many people to Christ. She was married and had a two year old. She held very strict standards of propriety in the way she dressed, what she listened to and what she watched.

Then, she began to change.

My sister broke fellowship with the local church and the believers that she knew. She stopped praying (except for "saying grace" before meals). She started partaking in worldly things like movies, television and music. She changed the way she dressed. She started spending a great deal of time on the internet.

I actually spoke with her about these things. She assured me that I was correct and she let me pray with her. However, I felt led to warn her about the dangers of the internet for people who aren't walking steadfastly with Christ.

Within a month of our talk, she separated from her husband. My oldest sister saw her MySpace account and noticed a man that she was chatting with. Sure enough, my sister had begun a relationship with him. She eventually divorced her husband -- a faithful believer and a very good provider (earning a six figure income) -- leaving him for an extremely worldly bi-polar man living on government assistance.

Subsequently, one zealous "eternal security" believer told me that my sister was still saved. Another zealous "eternal security" argued that my sister was "never truly saved in the first place."

Yet, I knew my sister. At one point, she truly loved Jesus. She had a wonderful reputation in her high school as a "Jesus freak" and was obviously sincere and very humble with her relationship with Jesus. I even remember when she gave her heart to the Lord. No one knew her better than her family...and we knew that it was real.

At this point, my sister doesn't even want to talk about the Lord...or what happened. She wants us to "accept her" and her decisions without mentioning the obvious.

So, I think that it would be more accurate to say that my sister "ran away" from God. Something in this world tempted her...offered her a substitute to her relationship with Jesus...and she eagerly gave in to that temptation. I (and the rest of my family) has shed many tears for her. Her ex-husband is still close to our family and still calls us for prayer. He has even flown to stay with us in California on a couple of occasions.

What is the end of a person like my sister if they never "come to their senses?" The Scriptures seem clear that an individual must be "faithful unto death" in terms of their faith. It is possible for people to "put their hand to the plow and look back." It is possible for "prodigal sons" to pass from life to death and back to life again. It is possible that some people are tempted back to a life that they had left behind.

I have met others who have had similar experiences as my sister had. I have known individuals who are now "agnostic" who claim that they once truly believed in and served the Lord.

So, instead of arguing about "can a person lose it," we might first try to determine if there are reasons that people would leave the faith. Is it possible for a person to abandon the faith? What is the end for some a person?

That is very sad, Chris. It is real life stories like yours that should prevent anyone from saying that "she wasn't saved and that's why she fell away".

Of course it is possible to abandon Christ. Everyday we wake up we choose to walk with Him or not. There are examples all around us. One thing that causes people to fall away is bitterness and unforgiveness.

Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Pilgrim

One thing that bothers me is when people take advantage of the OSAS doctrine and use it as an occasion to sin. I've heard of many occasions where people lived in sin but they justified it (or worse, a person in spiritual authority justified it) because a long time ago they "gave their heart to God." How can we who are dead to sin live any longer therein?

Any doctrine that gives one a false security will also give one a license to sin. Living in sin and believing that you are saved is the epitome of false security, bad doctrine and a false gospel.

Pilgrim

That's right, Frank.

Amazing how the adversary has a million little ways to TURN US AWAY from Jesus.

Pilgrim

Chris, I am so sorry for your sister - I understand your grief perfectly.

Will pray for her as the Spirit reminds me. In the meantime, you stay close to the LORD and do not allow this to happen to you.

You know there is the verse, "He that thinketh he standeth, take heed lest he fall."

God bless you Chris. Thanks for sharing.

ginnyrose

hmmhmm's : ...just edify and stir one another up to study more fervent to know him and his word and to edify one another and build ourselves up in the most holy faith. of this i am convinced and i pray we would see that more and more

Reading this section makes me think of how the old time revival preachers would often challenge the hearers assurance of salvation. I think these conversations can be healthy if they cause us to examine ourselves whether we be in the faith. I don't think a steady dose of challenging folks assurance is healthy, but we are reminded in scripture to give diligence to make our calling and election sure.

I think today we have a lot of what has been termed 'doctrinal salvations' or as Tozer is sometimes credited as calling it salvation by, 'logical deduction drawn from proof texts.' Paris Reidhead touched on this in 10 Shekels when he talked about how to become a fundamentalist.

If we could get back to genuine conversion and regeneration it would be easier to suffer eternal security type teachings; however, it seems like folks are moving in a very shallow concept of what it means to be 'saved' and then being taught eternal security. They become almost unreachable with the true Gospel as they believe they are 'in' and while some continue in flagrant sin and immorality. Just another angle on it.

Eternal security is only from abiding in Christ until final redemption of the purchased possession. The bible doesn’t teach OSAS but does teach believers to take heed so that we won’t be deceived. The command to take heed and the many warnings are to believers and not to unbelievers. There are many scriptures that teach us that Christ does keep us but there are also many scriptures that warn us to not fall away from the faith, not to sin willfully, and not to allow ourselves to be deceived.

For anyone to teach OSAS and to say that one who believes in Christ for salvation is eternally secure in this life as to relax because you never need to be concern about losing salvation must overlook the seriousness of multitudes of scriptures in the bible.

I believe we must first of all know that we have experienced the new birth according to the scriptures by experiencing the fear and Love of the Lord. The Love of the Lord is powerful and amazing in assurance of eternal life that He will never leave us nor turn us away but keeps us with an everlasting Love but with that also admonishes us to keep ourselves in his Love with fear and respect for God who has the power to give us the grace we need to help us overcome all the power of the enemy of our souls. We have an adversary the devil and we have an enemy called sin that we cannot win over without Christ living within us through the power of the Holy Spirit. We must be humble depending on the grace of God through faith to keep from being hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. We are to continue in the grace and obedience to God by faith. We must trust in God all the way and we must have confidence in His keeping power alone and that God is all in all and that the only part we have is to keep our trust in Him and in His ability to cause us to live the Christ life. All the warnings in the scriptures are there to keep us humble before God depending on His grace in faith believing to obedience in the Lord.

Grace to all… from brother rbanks

Hi RobertW,

If we could get back to genuine conversion and regeneration it would be easier to suffer eternal security type teachings; however, it seems like folks are moving in a very shallow concept of what it means to be 'saved' and then being taught eternal security. They become almost unreachable with the true Gospel as they believe they are 'in' and while some continue in flagrant sin and immorality. Just another angle on it.

I think that this is important. I have known many "backsliders" who were raised in the Church from childhood yet could never point to their own conversion experience. Now, there are plenty of people who were raised in the Church and will never go astray. Yet, I know many who admitted that they never had a true conversion from-death-to-life or from-darkness-to-light experience.

Temptation is real...even for believers like us. Yet, why don't we stray. Like I said, this world has been ruined for me. I would only be miserable with Jesus because He is the very reason for living. The greatest pleasure that I get from life is from spending time each day with Him. If I were to go a day without praying, I would be exceedingly miserable. I know many other believers are just like me in this sentiment.

Is this because we have had a conversion experience?

When I became a believer, the born-again "conversion" was very real. I can go back to that same place where I came to the realization and poured my life out back to the Lord. It was a place in a field at a summer camp just a few yards from a big oak tree. I literally felt that I was born on that day. Life had completely changed...and I have never been the same.

Is it possible that this is what differentiates those of us who remain steadfast in the faith? I was born again when I was a teenager. I once had a pastor who came his life to Christ when he was just five years old. However, his description of the experience is a mirror of my own.

I do know a believer like the one you described, Robert.

He came to Christ and had a night-to-day conversion. He was bold and eager with his faith and held very strong convictions about what is right and what is wrong. However, he didn't receive the same type of instruction with other believers at his Church. After a while, he compromised on many of those convictions. Slowly, he began partaking in the things of this world that he initially stood opposed to. Little by little, the compromise grew more evident. Eventually, he became almost like an unbeliever in the way he lives and does...but who just happens to say that he believes in Jesus.

During a Bible study, he once accused me of "legalism" because I don't do some of the things that he says he feels the "freedom" to do. Now, if he was speaking of something that wasn't so obviously sinful, I would be more understanding. However, some things are just plain obvious -- including Scriptural prohibitions against getting drunk, watching pornography or smoking marijuana. Yet this young man who once guarded his heart from watching television now thinks that it is "normal" (or that there is "freedom") to watch pornography. He explains away the fornication as "moments of weakness" and fully expects to be counted among the faithful on that final Day.

You have to wonder just what is the end of such an individual.

But there is a danger of embracing movements and theologies rather than the person of Jesus, Steve. When someone starts to identify themselves as " reformed," or " prosperity" or any other movement or theology, then they may have simply taken their eyes off Jesus? And when our eyes are off Jesus, we are all " swinging in the wind," despite the correctness of our doctrines........ bro Frank

Frank: This is very true. It might as well be "I am of Paul, I am of Appolus, I am of Peter..." It is, I think, a symptom of our carnality. We do not so much live in the word of God as we live in the world and believe and restate the soundbites. We must keep our eyes firmly fixed on Him.

Robert: Salvation is a baptism into His death and resurrection in regeneration. Being born again is more than a repeated prayer (though it is possible for one to be saved that way), it is more than a change in habits that we call conversion but is often just a greater discipline of the flesh and is in reality legalism. It is a literal death and resurrection. It is a work of the cross and the resurrection. Regeneration brings about a life the emanates not from my own ability but from His life within me. It is true, I think, that we have somehow lost a really true picture of what it is to be born again. But that is what happens when we take our eyes off of Jesus and begin to run after different movements, their leaders, or particulars of their doctrines.

I am reminded of a letter that John G. Lake wrote to Charles Parham. I found it on Eddie Hyatt's website. I wept as I read it. I always knew that somewhere along the line Parham got a little off. I know this because I was taught the peculiarities of his doctrine from the time I was born, and when I began to compare them carefully with the word of God I saw some obvious departures.

Now on the basics of Biblical Christianity he was no different than the PCOG that you are so familiar with. But is was some of the nuances that were the problem. And people majored on the nuances and separated themselves by those nuances and called themselves by Parham's name rather than majoring on Jesus and on sound and prayerful study of His word and upon continuing and growing relationship with Him. Lake pointed some of this out to Parham. The result was, I believe, that Parham never accomplished the fullness of what God desired for him to do and the body of Christ as a whole suffered for it. So it is when I am not focused on Christ. I can cause the body to suffer because of the lack of my part of that body to supply as the Holy Spirit gives me grace and anointing.

Oh how we need to lose a sectarian spirit. Oh how we need to hold doctrinal slants of men lightly and study carefully the Word of Truth so that we need not be ashamed. May God grant us the willingness to sacrifice our own desire to be justified before men, to prove our point, to be "right" and may He give us the desire to be faithful to Him and to His word and humble in all that we do and say.

That is not to say that we do not stand for the truth. But we must learn to differentiate the truth of the word of God from the theories of men about the Word of God.

QUOTE: "Secondly, the version of the Bible you're quoting from is incorrect. More reliable versions say: "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."--kRISPY kRITTER

No offense to you Krispy, and this is not meant to be an attack on your statement or a disagreement with it, but i just want to point out something via this opportunity:

SO WHICH IS TO CORRECT "VERSION" OF THE HOLY BIBLE? WHEN WE MAKE STATEMENTS SUCH AS THE ONE ABOVE THE UNBELIEVERS ARE WATCHING AND THEY POINT OUT THAT: 1. WE CANNOT EVEN AGREE AMONG OURSELVES WHICH IS THE TRUTH and 2. EVEN THEIR "BIBLES" ARE INCONSISTENT WITH EACH OTHER!

PEOPLE, DO YOU NOT SEE???? THIS IS THE DEVIL'S STRATEGY, TO PRODUCE COUNTERFEIT "BIBLES". AND IT IS WORKING!!!

THE KING JAMES BIBLE IS THE ONLY UNPERVERTED BIBLE IN CIRCULATION TODAY, ALL OTHERS ARE ADULTERATED "VERSIONS"
OF THE WORD OF GOD. ENOUGH ABOUT "THE GREEK"! THE KJ IS THE ONLY ONE THAT IS BASED ON THE TEXTUS RECEPTUS GREEK MANUSCRIPTS, ALL OTHER MODERN "TRANSLATIONS" ARE TAKEN FROM THE VATICANUS "GREEK" MANUSCRIPTS WHICH ARE CORRUPT, and this is proven with scripture itself.

For more on this subject please read:

"NEW AGE BIBLE VERSIONS: An Exhaustive Documentation Exposing The Message, Men, and Manuscripts Moving Mankind To The AntiChrist's One World Religion", by G.A. Riplinger

Until or unless you read this book which compares the versions and proves this, don't even bother to argue.

A religious spirit can label any version over another version and can also distort any version but I don't believe the Holy Spirit would have any part of this kind of desecration.

Blessings...from brother rbanks

Robert: Salvation is a baptism into His death and resurrection in regeneration. Being born again is more than a repeated prayer (though it is possible for one to be saved that way), it is more than a change in habits that we call conversion but is often just a greater discipline of the flesh and is in reality legalism.

Yes. The question becomes, is it possible for folks to enter into a state of justification where they are not really regenerated, but they have truly believed that Jesus is Lord? I'm thinking now of Acts 19:1ff. They believed and were termed disciples, but had not been baptized in water, nor received the Holy Spirit.

As we walk though Romans it seems clear that Paul lays out justification by faith preceding all of the benefits of being baptized into the death of Christ, freed from Sin, etc. God justifies the ungodly. Can a person enter into a state of justification and remain there?

We had a similar conversation about 5 years ago.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5112&forum=36&9

THE KING JAMES BIBLE IS THE ONLY UNPERVERTED BIBLE IN CIRCULATION TODAY, ALL OTHERS ARE ADULTERATED "VERSIONS"

This is not true. What are we to make for folks that don't speak English? Although I tend to favor the KJV (AV), there are areas where the ground rules for translation forced certain renderings of Greek terms in favor of Hierarchy in leadership. This has helped lead to doctrines such as are found in Shepherding circles, etc. I typically recommend 'God's Secretaries' to those interested in KJV translation process.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=25863&forum=36&1

Chris's: I do know a believer like the one you described, Robert.

He came to Christ and had a night-to-day conversion. He was bold and eager with his faith and held very strong convictions about what is right and what is wrong. However, he didn't receive the same type of instruction with other believers at his Church. After a while, he compromised on many of those convictions. Slowly, he began partaking in the things of this world that he initially stood opposed to.

I find it interesting that in the 19th century the prevailing word description of someone that made a profession of faith was, 'hopefully converted.' I think this was a wise approach. We actually went though a series of studies that examined how differently the Gospel is preached today as opposed to the 1800's. For those interested in giving it a look, it was titled, "The Betrayal of the Ages."

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9750&forum=40&9

And those who continue in sin become a straw man for those who do not lead particularly sinful lifestyles, but who were " good people," before their "salvation by logical deduction drawn from prrof texts," and continued to be " good people," after their " salvation." ........bro Frank

I think this is a good point. It would be very easy to fly under the radar if someone lived a pretty wholesome life. Although I have never employed the strategy, I recall Finney talking about, "flushing folks from their hiding places." He seemed to have a 'knack' (for lack of better word) for spotting whether or not a person was holding out on God.

What is really challenging is to realize that Paul the Apostle never shifted from his basic message. About twelve years into his ministry, Paul went before King Agrippa to give an account. What Paul tells him is a summary of his ministry up until this time. Paul testified, “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.” (Acts 26:19, 20.)

1. Repent
2. Turn to God
3. Do works worthy of repentance

This is the basic message of John the Baptist. Paul was still preaching it to the end so it seemed.

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0052.htm

Taken from above

"Brethren, we have gained legal life in Christ, and such legal life that we cannot lose it. The sentence has gone against us once—now it has gone out for us. It is written, "THERE IS NOW NO CONDEMNATION," and that now will do as well for me in fifty years as it does now. Whatever time we live it will still be written, "There is therefore, now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus."

"Now, any Arminian that would preach from that text must buy a pair of India rubber lips, for I am sure he would need to stretch his mouth amazingly; he would never be able to speak the whole truth without winding about in a most mysterious manner. Eternal life—not a life which they are to lose, but eternal life. If I lost life in Adam I gained it in Christ; if I lost myself for ever I find myself for ever in Jesus Christ. Eternal life! Oh blessed thought! Our eyes will sparkle with joy and our souls bum with ecstasy in the thought that we have eternal life"

"There never was a man who came to Christ for eternal life, for legal life, for spiritual life, who had not already received it, in some sense, and it was manifested to him that he had received it soon after he came. Let us take one or two texts—"He is able to save to the uttermost them that come unto him." Every man who comes to Christ will find that Christ is able to save him—not able to save him a little, to deliver him from a little sin, to keep him from a little trial, to carry him a little way and then drop him—but able to save him to the uttermost extent of his sin, unto the uttermost length of his trials, the uttermost depths of his sorrows, unto the uttermost duration of his existence. Christ says to every one who comes to him, "Come, poor sinner, thou needst not ask whether I have power to save. I will not ask thee how far thou hast gone into sin; I am able to save thee to the uttermost." And there is no one on earth can go beyond God's "uttermost."

These are some strong words, but they are not mine but Spurgeons.....This is a lengthy article, if you read it, I trust you will be blessed.

hi there brethren ,,,,what a topic lol

i must disagree with the comment about this doctrine not having jesus at the center

i think the main scripture suport for the persaverence of the saints ,,is the high preistly prayer ,and the words of our lord ,all whom the father has givern me will come to me ,and i will in no way cast him out ,,words to that effect recorded in the gosple of john

i love to confess that jesus christ prayed in the will of his father ,and his father our father ,answerd and is answering his prayer ,regarding his elect we will be one with him ,as he is one with the father ,perioud full stop and amen

christ prayer for those whom the fatherhas givern him ,was was not in vain but fuly efectual ,becasue fo who our christs is AND WHO he prayed to ,,what ever you ask in father in my name ,it shall be done

jesus practiced what he preached

he prayed in his own name

in the will of his father

this is the will of god said jesus and was recorded by the apostal whom he loved

presious brothers and sisters ,i must go out ,,,,will post some scripture later blessings and more blessings be multiplied

"THE KJ IS THE ONLY ONE THAT IS BASED ON THE TEXTUS RECEPTUS GREEK MANUSCRIPTS, ALL OTHER MODERN "TRANSLATIONS" ARE TAKEN FROM THE VATICANUS "GREEK" MANUSCRIPTS WHICH ARE CORRUPT..."

This quote above,from Trekker, is not true. See below.

Literal Translation of the Holy Bible (LITV) — First Published in 1976 it is the first literal word-for-word literal translation of the Bible, with each word closely observing the grammatical constructions that God used in the original languages.This Bible is an exact literal, word-for-word translation of the Masoretic Hebrew Text and the Greek Received Text (Textus Receptus), the main texts used by the Authorized/King James Version translators. Verbs are translated as verbs, nouns as nouns, adjectives and adverbs also being true to the original. Young’s Literal Translation produced over 100 years ago attempted and largely succeeded in such a translation. However, close examination will show that though it is very good, it departs from the original in many places. It is very common in other English translations to translate verbs as nouns. For instance, “hater” when the word is a verb meaning “to hate.”

You may download the LITV here:

http://www.thewordnotes.com/litv/litv.htm

And note the following Jim. This Bible does not cater to authoritarianism or nicolatianism, or as you put it, "make it more friendly for nicolatian leadership that wants to rule over Gods people."

Examples:

1) Hebrews 13:17 Yield to those taking the lead of you, and submit, for they watch for your souls, giving an account, that they may do this with joy, and not with grieving; for this would be unprofitable to you.

2) Hebrews 13:24 Greet all those leading you, also all the saints. Those from Italy greet you.

3) 1 Timothy 3:1 Faithful is the Word: If anyone reaches out to overseership, he desires a good work.

4) 1 Timothy 3:5 But if anyone does not know how to rule his own house, how will he care for an assembly of God?

5) 1 Timothy 5:17 Let the elders who take the lead well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those laboring in Word and teaching.

6) 1 Timothy 3:13 For those having served well gain a good grade for themselves and much boldness in faith, those in Christ Jesus.

7) 1 Peter 5:5 Likewise, younger ones be subject to older ones; and all being subject to one another. Put on humility, because God sets Himself "against proud ones, but He gives grace to humble ones."

8) Romans 11:13 For I speak to you, the nations, since I am an apostle of the nations, (I glorify my ministry)

The above examples should suffice. Go compare.

Q. Can we lose our salvation?

A. No

The question to be asked rather is, whether Christ can lose any the Father has given Him.

Christ Himself answers for us.

John 6:37-40 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him,may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Some comments on the above words spoken by Jesus.

This comprehensive and very grand passage is expressed with a peculiar artistic precision. The opening general statement (Joh_6:37) consists of two members: (1) “ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVETH ME SHALL COME TO ME” - that is, “Though ye, as I told you, have no faith in Me, My errand into the world shall in no wise be defeated; for all that the Father giveth Me shall infallibly come to Me.” Observe, what is given Him by the Father is expressed in the singular number and neuter gender - literally, “everything”; while those who come to Him are put in the masculine gender and singular number - “every one.” The whole mass, so to speak, is gifted by the Father to the Son as a unity, which the Son evolves, one by one, in the execution of His trust. So Joh_17:2, “that He should give eternal life to all that which Thou hast given Him” . This “shall” expresses the glorious certainty of it, the Father being pledged to see to it that the gift be no empty mockery. (2) “AND HIM THAT COMETH TO ME I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT.” As the former was the divine, this is just the human side of the same thing. True, the “coming” ones of the second clause are just the “given” ones of the first. But had our Lord merely said, “When those that have been given Me of My Father shall come to Me, I will receive them” - besides being very flat, the impression conveyed would have been quite different, sounding as if there were no other laws in operation, in the movement of sinners to Christ, but such as are wholly divine and inscrutable to us; whereas, though He does speak of it as a sublime certainty which men’s refusals cannot frustrate, He speaks of that certainty as taking effect only by men’s voluntary advances to Him and acceptance of Him - “Him that cometh to Me,” throwing the door wide open. Only it is not the simply willing, but the actually coming, whom He will not cast out; for the word here employed usually denotes arrival, as distinguished from the ordinary word, which rather expresses the act of coming (see Joh_8:42, Greek), [Webster and Wilkinson]. “In no wise” is an emphatic negative, to meet the fears of the timid (as in Rev_21:27, to meet the presumption of the hardened). These, then, being the two members of the general opening statement, what follows is meant to take in both. - JFB

Quote:
"The Betrayal of the Ages."

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9750&forum=40&9

Brother, do you have the link to Part II ?

Hi Ann,

Yes, actually I have the entire series expanded on my blog if you are interested. I titled it, 'none now live that remember'. This is from 2009. Here are the links:

http://realrevival.blogspot.com/2009/07/none-now-live-that-remember-part-2.html

http://realrevival.blogspot.com/2009/08/none-now-live-that-remember-part-4.html

Here is an excerpt:

Eliminating the Fuss?

Billy Sunday did not understand this. This is clearly evident by the way that he and then later Billy Graham dealt with anxious sinners. Let Billy Sunday explain his position in his own words:

“Some people think that they can’t be converted unless they
go down on their knees in the straw at a camp-meeting, unless they pray all hours of the night, and all nights of the week, while some old brother storms heaven in prayer. Some think a man must lose sleep, must come down the aisle with a haggard look, and he must froth at the mouth and dance and shout.

Some get it that way, and they don’t think that the work I do is genuine unless conversions are made in the same way that they have got religion. I want you to see what God put in black and white; that there can be a sound, thorough conversion in an instant; that man can be converted as quietly as the coming of day and never backslide. I do not find fault with the way other people get religion. What I want and preach is “the fact that a man can be converted without any fuss.” (Ellis. Billy Sunday 1914 P. 151)

Can you believe that at this point the language of hopeful conversion is all but gone and the use of the phrase 'got saved' is now on it's way to wide spread usage as the preferred terminology. This is a diabolic recipe for a mass of spurious conversions and false assurances. What about the 90% that are assumed will probably walk away from God? Is it possible that if someone would have taken these people aside and went "Down on their knees in the straw at the camp-meeting, and then they prayed all hours of the night, and all nights of the week, while some old brother stormed heaven in prayer. That they perchance would lose sleep or come down the aisle with a haggard look- froth at the mouth and then once they passed from death until life might then dance and shout when the Holy Spirit left off in conviction and poured in the oil of joy." (Sunday's anti-fuss comments revised)

There is a 'no-fuss' state that we can move in that God will bless, because we have truly made straight the path for Christ to come in; that is to say, we sincerely repented of our sins and turned from them. But there is another 'no-fuss' state that gets a whole lot of nothing done real fast.

Q. Can we lose our salvation?

A. No

The question to be asked rather is, whether Christ can lose any the Father has given Him.

The challenge we have to such questions are found in Paul's writings in 1 Cor. 6:9, 10, Gal. 5:21, and in John's Revelation 22:15, etc,. These are addressed to the saints. We read in 1 Cor. 1:2 where Paul gives the address of the letter,.. "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours. We have to ask, " Is there a group within this group that somehow are exempt from 1 Cor. 6:9, 10? How can a person, no matter their profession, count themselves to be 'saved' when Paul has said that they who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom? John wrote the book of Revelation addressed to the 7 churches of Asia. How do we reckon with these verses?

Krispy's: It was a wake up call to those within those churches that there are some who have decieved themselves, and others into thinking that they are saved. Paul is saying... no, if you practice such things you are not saved.

This is the evidence of not being saved. Thats what Paul is saying, in my opinion. Thats why we are exhorted to "exam yourself to see if you are in the faith". If you behave in such ways... you are not in the faith.

I would concur. But is this the general understanding of those that take the eternal security position?

It was a wake up call to those within those churches that there are some who have decieved themselves, and others into thinking that they are saved. Paul is saying... no, if you practice such things you are not saved.

This is the evidence of not being saved. Thats what Paul is saying, in my opinion. Thats why we are exhorted to "exam yourself to see if you are in the faith". If you behave in such ways... you are not in the faith.

So you are agreeing that there are Christians or people in Church who think they are Saved (I never use this word 'Saved' but just for your sake I am using it) while they still practice sinful lifestyle?
And these verses of warning are given to them. This is exactly what I said in my previous post. The warning messages are medicine given to such people.

Same way there are people who also get into disbelief, that they have lost their salvation because of their Sins after they came to Christ. All the verses of Eternal security are given as a medicine to such people telling them that if they Confess God is Faithful to forgive their sins in Jesus name.

So both Eternal security and warning messages are both true. One cannot say that only one of them is truth and other is lie. It is like a doctor who gives same medicine to all his patients. He might surely save the life of few patients but he will also kill many because the medicine to one disease is a poison to other.
Every preacher who takes such stand of administering only one kind of message are like such doctors who are killing many patients.

This is why if you had listened to Kieth Daniel's sermon on war of saints during Sermon index conference, he is unwilling to take a stand.

Years ago, while having a bible a study with some baptist friends, one of them asked me, how sure am I with my salvation.

I was never asked directly that way before, and still having
hangover with my secular education, I told him, who knows what will happen in the future, that one day I will commit a
big sin and that I will not be able repent.

Of course, my friend argued OSAS with me, but I was simply so philosophically resigned into uncertainty.

In my solitude though, that question bothered me a lot, am I just chasing the wind? and what is more despairing is the sad realization on the impossibility of living a perfect life.

Who will deliver me from this utter despondency?

This is why if you had listened to Kieth Daniel's sermon on war of saints during Sermon index conference, he is unwilling to take a stand.

This is probably a wise move. The trouble is that there are so many areas to define it is hard to have the conversation without misunderstanding. Free grace type teachings focus on belief to the exclusion of repentance and obedience. This is where my concern would be in teaching eternal security. I never had a problem for believing that when folks having repented are living by faith. It's when modern mass evangelistic methods couple with eternity security that I think we have an issue. ;-)

Krispy you said.."Yes, of course, this is what I have always said. There are tears among the wheat... goats among the sheep. People seem to "fall away", but according to scripture they are not "falling away" as in losing their salvation... they never had salvation to begin with. By leaving the faith, according to scripture, they prove once and for all that they were never of the faith to begin with... for if they were they would not have departed. 1 John 2:19"

I understand what you say and think it is more credible than the easy believism/OSAS postion. I also understand that OSAS is different to the 'perserverance of the saints' doctrine. I have much more respect for the reformed position on this, although don't see it that way.

However I still think what you said above does not deal with situations like Chris' sister. People who we would say exhibit all the fruit and evidence of being regenerated , but then fall away and depart from Christ. I don't think saying all the sciptures that refer to those who depart are about those who never were really saved in the first place makes sense and in fact takes away any application intended for us to be warned.

Here is the problem you would have.... Eternal security (defined as you can never loose salvation if you are really regenerated)is promoted as giving the saint assurance, BUT the person(s) you give this assurance to because they exhibit all the graces deemed neccesary, who then turn away from Christ you will then say they were never His! So you have then to admit you gave false assurance to them at the beginning. So in reality, as you cannot possible judge of what any person may do in the future, you cannot give anyone assurance of being eternally secure....making the doctrine unworkable.

However, if you consider and teach that we are eternally secure 'in Christ' as long as we continue abide in Him and trust Christ for our salvation we have a continual assurance of eternal life IN HIM. I think think this gives me much more assurance than the possibility that 'what if I fall away and prove I never was regenerate in the first place?'

Krispy's: So yes, on the outside we can all point to people who seem very spiritual. Anyone who grew up in the church can "play the game" and fool everyone. But when someone walks away from the faith scripture says they proove once and for all what was going on in their hearts.

Many will say on that day "Lord Lord... look at all we did for you!" and He will say "Depart from me, I never knew you."

I think this is why the old timers used to be very careful who they told were 'saved.' It seems that over the last 100 years or so this caution has been largely abandoned. Its almost as if ministers somehow want to reassure folks that they are saved. The cautious approach of the past seemed to emphasize perseverance in faith, the fruit of the Spirit, and the witness of the Spirit. In other words, and if I might use some hyperbole, some theological persuasions in the 19th century were so strict no one was saved, but today everyone that 'believes' is saved.

With a person's soul being the most precious thing they can be concerned with, it would seem to me in order to take a long and hard look at what it means to be saved. We don't get a second run at this. I don't want to simply believe something because it quiets my concerns unless I know it is truth. If there is one anomaly in my reasoning that may place my soul in jeopardy, I want to give attention to it. "Depart from me for I never knew you..." is not an acceptable route. I want to be SURE I am right with God. Eternity is a very long time. That's been my approach. ;-)

DRAW BACK INTO PERDITION!...[ Hell ]

"For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

BLOT OUT!? It is evidently possible, for He warned of it.

"Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not BLOT OUT his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."...............................

This is connected to defilement; willful sin committed to those in the holy church. Some dressed in White, some defiled.

AND THIS MAKES IT EVER SO CLEAR:

For it is IMPOSSIBLE for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and WERE MADE PARTAKERS of the HOLY GHOST,

And have TASTED the good word of God, and the POWERS of the world to come,

IF THEY FALL AWAY, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."....
.....................................................
These are former Holy Spirit filled Christians in Hell.

How is it possible to twist so clear of a warning into this dogma?; I can't see how. I see OSAS as a destructive lie, and administering a false security rather than eternal security. We have a will, and we can choose sin, lust, pride, exalted self-love, ambition to make a name for ourselves, and on and on. We then will be defiled.

Our Satanic Natures [ insert your name ] are a bottomless pit, wicked without end. If we act upon them, we will die. We have a fount, that cleanses us, if we confess and forsake our sin. This is what Jesus meant when he spoke of eating His flesh, and drinking His blood; LIVING A LIFE OF MERCY....received from God as He beholds us, spotless, because of His sacrifice.

I could walk over to that corner, kneel down, and reject Christ, and worship his majesty Satan, the devil, right now. Will I? Not. But if I did, would I be yet blessed and saved. Of course not, for I have blasphemed.

I do not walk in fear that my every sin will damn me, nor do I believe that the backslider is damned..[ thank God, for I was one...] God is filled with mercy. At some point, however, the scripture is clear that there is a point of no return. The Gospel within us must produce Holiness, for without holiness, no man shall see God.

"For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Jesus.
-quoted Brothertom

Then I added another post by brothertom:

So, how do you adjust the passage below that makes it very clear that some "WERE MADE PARTAKERS of the HOLY GHOST?"and yet they fall away. Should this passage be deleted? It must be overlooked to maintain such dogma, do you agree?

THIS MAKES IT EVER SO CLEAR:

"For it is IMPOSSIBLE for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and WERE MADE PARTAKERS of the HOLY GHOST,

And have TASTED the good word of God, and the POWERS of the world to come,

IF THEY FALL AWAY, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."....
.....................................................
These are former Holy Spirit filled Christians in Hell.

So, laying down Spurgeon, and all commentaries other than the Word, and your heart faith, How do you reconcile this, with your idea of OSAS? Is this a misprint?
-quoted Brothertom

Then I added this quote from Robert:

I think this is why the old timers used to be very careful who they told were 'saved.' It seems that over the last 100 years or so this caution has been largely abandoned. Its almost as if ministers somehow want to reassure folks that they are saved. The cautious approach of the past seemed to emphasize perseverance in faith, the fruit of the Spirit, and the witness of the Spirit. In other words, and if I might use some hyperbole, some theological persuasions in the 19th century were so strict no one was saved, but today everyone that 'believes' is saved.

With a person's soul being the most precious thing they can be concerned with, it would seem to me in order to take a long and hard look at what it means to be saved. We don't get a second run at this. I don't want to simply believe something because it quiets my concerns unless I know it is truth. If there is one anomaly in my reasoning that may place my soul in jeopardy, I want to give attention to it. "Depart from me for I never knew you..." is not an acceptable route. I want to be SURE I am right with God. Eternity is a very long time. That's been my approach. ;-)
-quoted Robert

Krispy I really believe these need to be addressed.

Blessings…from bother rbanks

quoted from krispy post:

What must we say to those who have strayed? It is the same thing that the author of Hebrews says to us: If we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firmly unto the end, we can rest assured that we are the house of Christ (Heb. 3:6). If those who have strayed humble themselves in prayer and repentance, they will find a throne of grace and a seat of mercy (Heb. 4:15–16)."
-quote

This is the same I and others have stated and the "if" is a big word and I see no "OSAS" in this quote which I agree with.

Blessings...from brother rbanks

If salvation was a static, one time event, then OSAS would have some legitimacy. But salvation is not a static event.

Salvation is the ongoing dynamic life of Jesus Christ and the Prince of Peace commands us to abide in Him or be cast forth as a useless branch.

Question: Can one who has experienced His life and tasted of the good things to come, stop abiding in Christ and fall away even though they had a born-again experience 30 years earlier?

Pilgrim

Dr. Kelly seems to be ok when he stays with the bible but when he brings his teaching to explain his interpretation is when he departs from the scriptures with his own understanding. Many may put Dr. Kelly’s teachings on level with the bible and explain away the “if” but as for me I will stay with the bible.

For example there is no passage of scripture in the bible that contradicts all the warnings in the bible and there is no “OSAS” passage in the bible because Jesus warned us and told us to persevere and that He would give us all the grace we would need to persevere if only we are faithful to follow Him. I would never tell someone they are saved because they must experience it and know it for themselves. I would never tell someone that once they are saved then they will always be saved but only that they are to make their calling and election sure.

I wouldn’t want to be the preacher that many in hell are looking for because they were told “once saved always saved”. Jesus never said it and none of His apostles and they didn’t have a “Doctor degree” but they were full of the Holy Ghost. I’ll just stay with what the scriptures say!

I have also enjoyed the pleasant dialog Krispy and btw I do believe that I have eternal security in Christ and that He will keep me as long as I am responsible in keeping my faith in Him to follow His leading. I would never teach OSAS because I fear God too much and would never want to lead anyone astray but I do teach that we do have eternal security by truly abiding in Christ.

Blessings…from brother rbanks

I think this is why the old timers used to be very careful who they told were 'saved.' It seems that over the last 100 years or so this caution has been largely abandoned. Its almost as if ministers somehow want to reassure folks that they are saved. The cautious approach of the past seemed to emphasize perseverance in faith, the fruit of the Spirit, and the witness of the Spirit. In other words, and if I might use some hyperbole, some theological persuasions in the 19th century were so strict no one was saved, but today everyone that 'believes' is saved.

I think Robert has hit a nail on the head here. I remember reading about old time Methodist conversions. The people would pray with a penitent until the witness of the Holy Spirit came to that person's spirit. Sometimes this would be moments, and sometimes hours of staying before God. Parham and a great deal of the modern day pentecostal movement came out of Methodist roots. As I grew up I heard a great deal from the old timers about "praying through". I don't hear that so much any more.

Something that was brought up earlier was the concept of justification apart from rebirth. This was a doctrine that was taught where I come from. Asking for forgiveness of sin and believing on Christ's atoning sacrifice brought justification (forgiveness of sin) and a second experience, sanctification by faith, brought about the rebirth. It was taught that you were not truly born again until you had received the sanctifying grace of God and that this was a second definite word or experience.

It seems to me that this is simply a product of Parham's Methodist roots. Methodist's taught the second blessing and Parham simply tacked on the baptism of the Holy Spirit as a third blessing. However I had some problems with this not exactly squaring with Jesus conversation with Nicodemus which seems to imply the rebirth at conversion.

Some truths:
- We are saved by grace through faith. We do not labor for salvation, bur receive it as a free gift of God.
- Forgiveness has already been purchased and offered. In that sense we are forgiven before we even approach God. However this forgiveness must be received or appropriated through faith and repentance.

I say all that for this reason. It seems to me that we have somehow reduced regeneration to a verbal statement and a belief that if we have made the correct verbal statement that we are born again. But there is something to be said for doing business with God in such a way that when we are finished we know beyond a shadow of a doubt through the witness of the Holy Spirit that we are born again. Perhaps we have lost something along the way that we should have held on to.

Is it possible to say that we all agree that it is possible to have once been saved and then in the end to somehow lose that salvation, or have I gone too far with that statement? I am not talking about the method of losing it, just the fact that one could have once been born again and wind up being lost in the end. Some, like me, are somewhat convinced that the only way to lose out is if we turn from it ourselves. This seems to square with Hebrews as well as other verses pointing to the need to hold the profession of our faith fast to the end.

" 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. "

Others say that it is sin that causes you to lose out (many old time, holiness pentecostals were this way). Others may have other opinions.

But is it possible to agree that it could indeed be lost?

By the way, I am blessed by the tenor of the discussion of what is often a very charged topic. Krispy, maybe the snake has no fangs. :-)

Salvation

David F. Wells, The Search for Salvation,

"The whole comprehensive view of salvation which the Bible presents - past, present and future; subjective and objective; personal and societal, is not being maintained in its wholeness within modern theology."

Foerster, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, (Kittel's) - root words from which sozo and soterion are derived mean "to make safe."

Salvation. To make safe from what? Not to make safe from erroneous thinking by understanding your "erroneous zones". Not to make safe from economic and/or political oppressors (liberation theology).

Perhaps the most popular conception is that we are made safe from going to hell. And yet, the objective of Christian salvation is surely more than just an escapist incentive for the acquisition of an everlasting "fire insurance policy."

Salvation has to do with being made safe from misused humanity, dysfunctional humanity, in order to be restored to the functional humanity God intends by the presence of the functional dynamic of God in man by His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

We are being saved unto full participation in the risen, ascended Life of the Lord Jesus Christ, by the dynamic of God's Spirit.

We are being saved unto the purpose of our creation and existence in glorifying God. (Isa. 43:7)

We must be painfully honest in reappraising our popular misconceptions of salvation in evangelical theology today.

Several years ago. "I FOUND IT" campaign of Campus Crusade. What is the IT they were claiming to have found? Salvation? Eternal Life? The implication is that "salvation" is an IT; something, rather than Someone. Such is sloppy salvation terminology!

We need to understand a dynamic restorative and functional salvation process - Not just preventative salvation. Not just acquisitional salvation (the acquiring of spiritual benefits.) Salvation is not a "benefit" dispensed by a "benefactor." Yet Darrel L. Bock (Bibliotheca Sacra - Apr. June, 1986), "Jesus as Lord is the divine dispenser of salvation"..."Jesus is the dispenser of divine salvation and forgiveness." Such is a separated concept that separates salvation from the Savior, and creates a static view of salvation. Jesus does not dispense salvation like a bubble-gum dispenser; He does not dispense salvation like an airline ticket dispenser; Jesus is not like a medical dispensary dispensing the "gos-pill". Salvation is only in the dynamic activity of the Savior. Jesus Christ is salvation.

Salvation is not an entity, a commodity, a "package", a spiritual "goody"; Salvation is not a heavenly entrance pass, a ticket to heaven, an eternal life package. Salvation is not a "possession in my pocket'.

Evangelical theology has swung from a God-centered theology to a man-centered theology, and has wrenched "salvation" from the grace-activity of God, placing it into the hands of men, to be manipulated by men (or so they think).

When we use the phrase "got saved", it has static connotations of an event in time, a transaction, a static state of being.

Conrad Murrell, Salvation When?

"...it is extremely difficult to determine in the Bible where anyone "got saved." That is not Bible terminology. It is not early church terminology. The Puritans did not use it. It is peculiarly the language of modern evangelism. It is Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal, but not Bible."

Salvation is the dynamic functioning of the Person of Jesus Christ within us, the restorative activity of the Savior.

Modern theology has reduced salvation to depersonalized formulas, static arguments of the length of one's ordo salutis.

J.S. Stewart - A Man in Christ ,

"There has been a tendency, on the part of Roman Catholics and Protestants alike, to systematize Paul's teaching into elaborate "plans of salvation," to the details and order of which the experience of believers has been required to conform - the tendency, in other words to stereotype the grace of God. To regularize salvation beyond a certain point is simply to revert from the freedom of the spirit to the bondage of the letter. ....endless misconceptions have been caused by isolating the various elements in the Christian experience from one another, and assigned each its place on a chronological chart."

W.L. Liefeld, International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (revised)-

"In the Pauline corpus...salvation is...a dynamic act rather than a logical category or symbol. ..salvation, far from being a deus ex machine used to salvage an occasional bad situation, is God's eternal plan, extending through Christ to the entire range of human need."

Salvation is a process ­ not a process of accumulating "good works" as in the cultic sense of salvation process, but the process by which God's dynamic grace is continuously applied to our lives, in the "saving life of Christ." Salvation is the dynamic process of the work of the Savior in His people

This central reality of the functional dynamic of all things in the person and work of Jesus Christ, Himself, is the truth that is so often obliterated and obfuscated,...as the natural propensity of man is to reduce Christianity into a manageable religious belief-system.

Karl Paul Donfried - The Dynamic Word -

"The New Testament forbids us to treat it as a static document to be used as a set of proof-texts for instant solutions to complex and controversial contemporary problems. A static interpretation of the New Testament is dependent on a frozen Christology, one that views Jesus as limited to the first third of the first century; a dynamic interpretation of the New Testament is based on a Christology that views Jesus not only as the human manifestation of God in first-century Palestine, but also as the Risen Lord of the church present yesterday, today, and tomorrow, who calls His church to obedience until the completion of his salvific purposes on the last day. As the contemporary church remains obedient to the Risen Christ in her midst, the gospel can become a dynamic Word for us as well, and that is an opportunity of great hope and much rejoicing."

T.F. Torrance - Reality and Evangelical Theology -

"God Himself is the real content of His revelation...in His continuous self-revealing and self-giving through the Son and in the Spirit.

"Modern liberal theology like ancient Arianism continues to stumble at the identity between God and His revelation...(and) is thrown back upon the autonomous religious reason to provide the ground on which all that is claimed to be divine revelation is to be considered."

"Fundamentalism...rejects the fact that revelation must be continually given and received in a living relation with God....it substitutes a static for a dynamic view of revelation. ...fundamentalism operates with a rigid framework of beliefs which have a transcendent origin and which are certainly appropriated through encounter with God in His self revelation...but these beliefs are not applied in a manner consistent with their dynamic origin and nature. Instead of being open to the objective pole of their reference in the continual self-giving of God and therefore continually revisable under its control, they are given a finality and rigidity in themselves as evangelical beliefs..... They are endowed with a fixity at the back of the fundamentalist mind, where they are evidently secure from critical questioning. ..The Bible is treated as a self-contained corpus of divine truths in propositional form endowed with an infallibility of statement which provides the justification felt to be needed for the rigid framework of belief within which fundamentalism barricades itself.

"The practical and the epistemological effect of a fundamentalism of this kind is to give an infallible Bible and a set of rigid evangelical beliefs primacy over God's self-revelation which is mediated to us through the Bible.....reinforced by the regular fundamentalist identification of biblical statements about the truth with the truth itself to which they refer. The living reality of God's self-revelation through Jesus Christ and in the Spirit is in point of fact made secondary to the Scripture.

"...the decisive problem of fundamentalism is not so different after all from the problem of liberalism.

"...fundamentalists...appear to be trapped in a mental and theological inertia before the pain of justification by the grace of divine Reality alone, which threatens to wrench their minds free from inbuilt fixities and rigidities, so that they may be opened through the Spirit to the ultimate and creative Word and Truth of God Himself. Radical change at this point would surely involve acknowledgment of the transcendent Reality and Authority of the living Jesus Christ not only over the church and all its doctrinal formulations but over the Holy Scriptures themselves. (15-19)

The story is told that when Ghatama Buddha was dying (over four hundred years prior to the time of Christ), some of his disciples asked how they could best remember him. He told them not to bother; that it was his teaching, not his person, that mattered. Such is the basis of religion - ideological, philosophical, educative belief-systems. Such is not the case with Jesus Christ and Christianity. Everything centers in Him. Everything is inherent in Jesus, His Person and His continuing activity. Everything functions only by the dynamic of the risen and living Lord Jesus Christ.

http://www.christinyou.net/pages/dynamicxst.html

Just like Calvinist and Arminians (sp?), both sides argue their scriptures to the death when in fact BOTH sides are supported in the Bible! So arguing that topic (and eternal security as well) become altogether useless in the scheme of eternity. Because eternal security and falling away are both “IN” the Bible and even without being misapplied!!

Most of you know that I have argued adamantly on this forum for ‘falling away’ but through spending time with the Lord, He has shown me that arguing this point (as well as others) is A DISTRACTION OF THE ENEMY and that both sides are NOT 100% right and yet both do have truth in them. And a distraction keeps us arguing instead of being about the Father's business.

Finally, I do lean heavily that going into the jail is an excellent demonstration of the demonic teaching of OSAS and has led these men and women into a false sense of security and ultimately to hell. 99% of everyone in jail/prison believes that they are saved... even if they’ve not prayed one time since praying the sinner’s prayer when they were five, ten or fifteen years old.

Krispy and others state that they weren’t saved to begin with but yet no one instructed the precious souls that they might not be saved! No! They were told, "Say this prayer and you WILL GO to heaven," with no other instruction. So, I’m wondering how many “saved” people will stand in front of God with blood on their hands over teaching eternal security? You need to analyze exactly what it is that you are teaching innocent souls.

Krispy, I remember a few months back that you praised God for leading a man to Christ; you and a few other men in your church. Has he been back to church? Did anyone disciple that man? During that prayer time, did anyone instruct him that he might not be saved after that prayer you all lead him in? And did he walk away thinking he was saved or not?

So I will still go into the jails preaching “REPENTANCE IS A LIFESTYLE” and instruct them to repent every time they sin, to read their Bibles everyday, fear God and love His Son Christ Jesus with all their heart, mind, body and soul!!! Just like rbanks and others on here, I will NOT teach anyone the doctrine of eternal security.

I do trust God completely that He knows those who are His!

God bless us all,
Lisa

If the OSAS doctrine is true then please someone explain to me the parable of the ten virgins(matthew 25:1-13... Krispy my pastor who is S baptist said that the five foolish virigins got lesser rewards in heaven. so in light of this paprble please tell me how can Osas have any standing at all.

I find myself agreeing with Pastor Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel on this question of OSAS (perseverance of the saints):

On another spectrum, there are the hyper-Calvinists who teach that Jesus died only for His elect, that man has no free will, that one group is elect for heaven, another is elect for hell, and there's nothing you can do about it. Opposite them are the hyper-Arminians who forget the sovereignty of God altogether and believe a person must be born again again each time they sin. Again, Calvary Chapel is the balance between the two. As Pastor Chuck said, "I believe in once saved always saved, if you abide in Christ". The Bible teaches the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man; it teaches the security of the believer and the perseverance of the saints. We will never intellectually reconcile the two; we just need to accept the fact that God is bigger than we are and teach all that the Bible says.

I could not have expressed it better.

You can find more info on this third position between Calvinism and Arminianism here:

http://www.babylonfalls.org/forchristians/salvation.html

Salvation is a process ­not a process of accumulating "good works" as in the cultic sense of salvation process, but the process by which God's dynamic grace is continuously applied to our lives, in the "saving life of Christ." Salvation is the dynamic process of the work of the Savior in His people. (J.Fowler)

The reason that Christendom reduces the Christian life to a set of rules and regulations and a codified religious belief system is because it is much easier than maintaining a living, abiding relationship with Jesus Christ (which requires the cross and putting to death the deeds of the flesh).

The religious flesh is subtle and through it's deceptive codification process of turning God's Words into legalisms the flesh has found sophisticated ways to turn God's ways into a manageable belief system and avoid the Cross and thus, avoid abiding in Christ, yet be completely saved because of "faith".

Now, that is the epitome of deceptive religious flesh: Be saved (according to dogma) yet not having to abide in Christ in an ever present, living relationship.

If one is abiding in Christ, they will produce fruit, which is the result of that abiding.

What does it mean to "have the Son"? For he that hath the Son hath life and he that hath not the Son hath not life (1 John 5:12).

2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Part of the doctrine of Christ is John 15 - Abiding in Him.

In the following verse, Paul is talking to the BRETHREN!

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

When you depart from the living God you are saying goodbye. You are departing from eternal life because eternal life is in the Son (God).

1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Pilgrim

Hello TrueWitness, I took a look at the site you listed and this was the 1st point they mentioned as Arminian doctrine

The "Five Points of Arminianism" included the following:
1. FREE WILL
Arminius believed that the fall of man was not total, maintaining that there was enough good left in man for him to will to accept Jesus Christ unto salvation.

This is not Arminian.

Arminius himself, and the remonstrants believed the following. It ends with a Sproul quote

Arminius, as did Calvin, championed the cause of the wretchedness of sinners as taught in Scripture. He writes:

In the state of Primitive Innocence, man had a mind endued with a clear understanding of heavenly light and truth concerning God, and his works and will, as far as was sufficient for the salvation of man and the glory of God; he had a heart imbued with "righteousness and true holiness," and with a true and saving love of good; and powers abundantly qualified or furnished perfectly to fulfill the law which God had imposed on him. This admits easily of proof from the description of the image of God, after which man is said to have been created (Gen. 1:26-27), from the law divinely imposed on him, which had a promise and a threat appended to it (Gen 2:17), and lastly from the analogous restoration of the same image in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 4:24; Col. 3:10).

But man was not so confirmed in this state of innocence as to be incapable of being moved by the representation presented to him of some good (whether it was of an inferior kind and relating to this [natural] life, or of a superior kind and relating to spiritual life), inordinately and unlawfully to look upon it and to desire it, and of his own spontaneous as well as free motion, and through a preposterous desire for that good, to decline from the obedience which had been prescribed to him. Nay, having turned away from the light of his own mind and his Chief Good, which is God, or, at least, having turned towards that Chief Good not in the manner in which he ought to have done, and besides having turned in mind and heart towards an inferior good, he transgressed the command given to him for life. By this foul deed, he precipitated himself from that noble and elevated condition into a state of the deepest infelicity, which is under the Dominion of Sin. . . .

In this state, the Free Will of man towards the True Good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost: And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace.3

Calvinist R. C. Sproul comments:

"The above citation from one of Arminius's works demonstrates how seriously he regards the depths of the fall. He is not satisfied to declare that man's will was merely wounded or weakened. He insists that is was "imprisoned, destroyed, and lost." The language of Augustine, Martin Luther, or John Calvin is scarcely stronger than that of Arminius. . . .

Arminius not only affirms the bondage of the will, but insists that natural man, being dead in sin, exists in a state of moral inability or impotence. What more could an Augustinian or Calvinist hope for from a theologian? Arminius then declares that the only remedy for man's fallen condition is the gracious operation of God's Spirit. The will of man is not free to do any good unless it is made free or liberated by the Son of God through the Spirit of God.4"

With that being said, Arminians also hold to Libertarian Free Will, not to be confused with absolute free will.

Hope this helps. Russ

Also from a Calvary Chapel website that I found helpful:

The question of whether or not a Christian can lose or walk away from salvation (point 5 in both doctrinal systems) is academic. When a person who claims to be a Christian and shows some fruit to that effect turns his back on God and lives the life of a pagan, the Arminian says he was saved and is now not saved, while the Calvinist says that he was either never really saved to start with, or that he is severely backslidden, but still within grace. Ultimately, no one, not even the sinning person, knows the truth only God does. In a backslidden or sin-filled state, there is no assurance of salvation, no resting in Jesus, no peace of God in the heart. So the sinning person, whether he is actually a Christian or just thinks he might be, needs to repent and get right with God. The true believer in Christ never has to doubt his salvation. He can rest in the perfect assurance that God saved him and will keep him, and nothing will ever separate him from God's love in time or eternity. We are secure in Christ, kept by the power of His loving grace, forever safe in Jesus.

We are not called to understand God, only to believe Him. I am a free moral agent, responsible for my own sin, hopelessly lost. Jesus not only died for me, He drew me to Himself with bands of lovingkindness and grace, convicted me of my sin, gave me the power to call Him Lord, and will one day present me faultless before His presence with great joy. I am, by His grace, His child. And yet, I am still free to walk with Him or not to walk with Him. And what applies to me, applies to every human being. Jesus died for all of us and desires fellowship with all of us. Whosoever will may come and receive of His forgiveness and grace and salvation. Innocent babies who die are safe in heaven. God's election excludes no one; Jesus' atonement includes everyone. As has been pointed out, we are looking at two sides of the same coin. Election is God's side, free will is our side. Someone once said that as we enter life, we see emblazoned over the gateway the words "Whosoever will may come"; then as we enter and look back at the backside of the same gateway, we see inscribed what the words "Elect from the foundation of the earth". Election is God's side of the coin we call salvation, human responsibility is our side.

Quoted from here:
http://www.ccfestus.com/books/taylor_calvinism.htm

i have to agree with krisipy and the brother he quoted

what do you brothers say about the letter of john ,which seems to have verses that are in the contex of apostates
as krisipy said

they went out from us because they were not of us
if they had been of us they would have continued with us
but they went out from us ,that it might be manifets they were never of us ,,,,,,,,john say in the same letter you are of god little children

we see that those who went out were not of god ,but as john says of the devil

1 John, Chapter 3

008:

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

009:

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

is it possable for a true child of god to fall aways from the faith and which is characterized by a sinfull life

not according to verse 9 ,,becasue gods seed is in him and he is sealed with the spirit ,,,the two clear reasons why a christain does not fall away as did the people spoken of in

1 John, Chapter 2

019:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

020:

But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

for his seed remains in him is one
because he is born of god ,was the second
and verse 20 of chapter 2 gives the same reason in others words ,why did you not go out with them ?,becasue you have unction your are born again you have gods seed in you

1 John, Chapter 3

006:

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

007:

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

008:

He that committeth sin is of the devil;

who ever practices sin persues sin ,continues in sin ,or the direct contex of the letter falls back into sin ,and apostasises

has never seen god ,nor has he known god in the contex of abiding in him and being truly born again

the verse can be literaly taken ,as who ever has not knowen or seen god has never abided in him in the first place ,but he is of the devil ,his sinfull life that we see in this case proves he never abided in christ

but he who is born of god keeps him self and the evil one does not touch him 5,18 of 1 john
19 WE KNOW WE ARE OF GOD AND THE WHOLE WORLD LIES UNDER THE SWAY OF THE WICKED ONE

a true christian will not fall in to satans traps , and become a disobedant child giving him self to the prince and the power of the air wich is the spirit that works in the sons of disobedance
my sheep hear my voice
and i know them
and they follow me
and i give to them eturnal life
AND THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH
NEITHER SHALL ANYONE PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY HAND

John, Chapter 6

037:

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

038:

For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

039:

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

our father has a souvern will and plan for is elect ,
in is son he fullfills his will
christ did and is doing gods will and saving through santfication of his spirit is the mark of gods work and he who began a good work in you will finish it dont doubt gods power in you ,all things are posable ,dont bye in to the lie of the devil that you might walk away and deni his son ,,
i will sprinkle clean water on you and you will be clean
i will take out that heart of stone
and put into you a heart of flesh
and i will wright my laws on that heart
and I WILL CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES AND JUDGMENT
you are a new creation in christ ,
old things have passed away all things have become new

IAM WORKING IN YOU BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO
FOR MY GOOD PLEASURE
YOU ARE MY CHILDREN ,AND I WILL NOT FORSAKE YOU
I HAVE PRAYED TO MY FATHER THAT WE MAY BE ONE
AND THAT YOU WILL BEHOLD MY GLORY THAT I HAD BEFOR THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD
YOU ARE MINE ,AND I AM YOUR
MY BLOOD HAS BROUGHT YOU BACK TO ME ,AND MY FATHER WAS PLEASED TO HAVE ME DIE FOR YOU
SHALL I NOT RECIEVE THE REWARD OF MY SUFFERINGS
SHALL I NOT HAVE THE FRUIT OF MY DOINGS
SHALL I NOT RECIEVE THE PATITIONS I HAVE ASKED

MY FATHER LOVES ME AND HAS GIVERN YOU IN TO MY HAND
SO ENDURE TILL THE END AND KEEP MY COMANDMENT
I GIVE YOU POWER THROUGH MY WORD AND SPIRIT TO ACCOMLISH ALL THAT I ASK ,,IT IS I WHO WORKS IN YOU ,BOTH TO WILL AND DO FOR MY GOOD PLEASURE

I COME QUICKLY

WATCH ASK KNOCK

Hi bible4life,

Praying for you ....

Old Joe said: "John 3:36 teaches you either are in present possession of life that is EVERLASTING or the wrath of God is abiding on you."

I think it is a basic misconception to say that WE possess everlasting (or eternal) life. Jesus Christ is the possessor of eternal life and if we are in possession of Him (and He of us), then we have what he has, even eternal life!

John 3:36 actually says 'He who believes in the Son has everlasting life.' So understnding that 'believes' means not a mental agreement only, but a complete trust and dependence on The Son.

John clarifies this in 1 John 5:11&12 when he says "....that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life, he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."

"This life is IN HIS SON"!

If you have the Son today, rejoice because you are eternally secure in Him! But if you once had the Son, but have now rejected Him, beware you may well have rejected the eternal life that is in Him!

Coincidentally (or not)I was reading today's reading from Oswald Chambers and I quote: "Eternal life is not a gift from God, eternal life is the gift OF God."
There is a big difference!

Krispy please explain to me the parable of the ten virgins. And John 15 about abiding in Christ. If we do not abide we are cut out... Thanks brian.

I would like to add something this morning to this thread about the security of the believer. Jesus does teach that we are secure in Him. He also warns not to be deceived, not to get slack, and not to turn or fall away from grace.

Although I don’t like the term OSAS because of the deception it can bring to people causing them not to persevere or make their calling and election sure which is what the bible teaches, I also don’t believe one should live in fear of losing their salvation as though there is something that we need to do as of ourselves in order to keep ourselves saved.

I as a Christian know that I have been born of God with a definite experience of the Holy Spirit and have also gone on to make my calling and election sure as the scripture teaches. I also have assurance of salvation and believe that I will always be saved and I strive to live every day to please the Lord and also desire to hear him say one day “well done thou good and faith servant” and at the same time take heed to the warnings in scripture as well as the commission of my Lord.

I am going to step out on a limb here and say that I also believe that a truly born of God person rooted in a relationship with Christ to the point where Jesus wouldn’t be able to say I never knew you because you’ve had a relationship to where the foundation of God standeth sure having this seal that the Lord knows them that are His and whereby this relationship cause one to depart from all iniquity. Jesus says of all that the Father has truly given to me I have lost none. I have this assurance that keeps me humbly depending on the Lord and His grace to always strive to please Him with the joy of the Holy Spirit who enables me to do His will. I am depending on the Lord and His power to keep me saved and to help endure until the end and I have confidence that He will and I praise Him for His promises of Love to us all.

That being said brings me to this point that each one must have this faith in themselves personally and not get it from someone else as someone telling them “OSAS” which is not biblical because saved has a 3 fold meaning and also a person has not reached final salvation until redemption of the purchased possession. We can use all the clichés of they were never saved in the beginning but unless they persevere and make their calling and election sure they could have a false hope that could actually keep them from going on to a real experience of salvation.

Blessings…from brother rbanks

I didn't ask about 1john. U still have not answered me. Explain to me the Lords words. If you do not ABIDE then u are cut out. Abiding means to abide.... Yes we don't know ones heart but we do have Gods word. What happened to the unbelieving Israelites? The did not receive the promise. They no longer believed. Were they not Gods?

Krispy,

Faith is the doorway for union with Christ and faith is the vehicle to continue in our union with Christ, unless as the thief, we die right after we are justified by faith.

As Calvinist John Murray explains: "Union with Christ is really the central truth of the whole doctrine of salvation". (Murray, Redemption p. 161).

So, if Murray says this (which I concede is Biblical truth), then how does a Saint maintain Union with Christ?

And this goes back to OSAS. Is salvation an instantaneous act of God that fixes the present position and eternal destiny of the believer or is it a process that depends on man's perseverance (the "P" in TULIP. Perseverance of the Saints)?

When it comes to the "P" in TULIP, lurking behind Calvinism is Arminianism. If Calvinism is true, then one would think that a sinner with Total Depravity, whom God has chosen before the foundation of the world by Unconditional Election, whom Christ has made a Limited Atonement for, and whom God has regenerated by Irresistible Grace, would be saved whether he persevered or not. But by confounding God's perseverance of the believer with the believer's perseverance in the faith, Calvinists have contradicted their entire system of theology.

Let me ask these questions:

1. Are keeping His commandments optional for men that would enter into life?
2. Is there saving faith apart from obedience?
3. Is there valid assurance of election and final salvation apart from deliberate perseverance in the faith?

What do Calvinists have to say about this?

"Endurance in faith is a condition for future salvation. Only those who endure in faith will be saved for eternity".
R.C. Sproul, Grace Unknown

"Neither the members of the church nor the elect can be saved unless they persevere in holiness; and they cannot persevere in holiness without CONTINUAL watchfulness and effor". Charles Hodge, Corintians.

"Holiness in this life is absolutely necessary to salvation, not only as a means to the end, but by a nobler kind of necessity, as part of the end itself". Arthur Pink, Sanctification.

If one did not know better, he would adamantly insist that the above quotes were taken from Arminians like John Wesley, Richard Watson, Robert Shank or Guy Duty. But they are Calvinist quotes which show they have exactly the same sentiments on perseverance as Arminians. That is why the other side of Calvinism regarding the Perseverance of the Saints, is Arminianism for if any works are required in addition to faith, then as Joseph Dillow relates: "Requirements which must be met in order to secure a certain result, going to heaven, are in fact conditions necessary for the attainment of that result. And if a life of works is a necessary condition for obtaining the result of heaven, then salvation is ultimately conditioned upon works and not faith alone.

But, I thought it was clear that Salvation is not of works.

So, Calvinists are Arminians, when it comes to the 5th point of the TULIP. I will demonstrate this later by showing quotes from respected Calvinists (Charles Hodge, Arthur Pink and Calvin himself) and Arminians regarding key scriptures on this topic.

You will see that their sentiments are the same regarding key scriptures.

So which is it? Faith or Works or a combination? Is there any responsibilities laid upon the Believer? These quotes will demonstrate works after initial faith from both camps yet we know that we are not saved by works. Do men have to be lumped into either Calvinist or Arminian categories may also be a good question?

Pilgrim

Krispy,

Regarding 1 Jn 2:19, you cannot build a doctrine around one verse. Once you do that there is always one other verse to counteract it.

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Clearly, there are some to did not "go out from us".

Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

And what is the purpose of this warning:

Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them THAT BELIEVED NOT.

Pilgrim

I often hear that our final salvation depends upon our abiding and perseverance to the end.

But who can assure us that we will indeed abide and persevere to the end?

Can we promise that to ourselves? Have you been tempted to the full extent of your lust, or tortured so severely for your faith that you can say that?

Will you dare say to yourself, surely I will not fail if even in such trivial matters you forget the Lord so easily.

The reality is, our strongest attempt to abide and persevere to the end is so precarious, it is a losing game.

Greetings sister, the Lord bless you. Please let me post another question:

How will I survive if the whole force of evil is summoned to destroy me, am I strong enough to fight them? Is anyone of us strong enough?

Is this not chasing the wind? Who shall be saved then?

I have said that to myself, I abide I will survive, but who knows that in the future I will otherwise just leave and forsake Him afterall, who will assure me that I will never do that?

Let the future tell?

Christian salvation is not just sitting back and lay idly or wantonly expecting His blood to cover it all, there is an asssurance of wrath to someone who will do that.

We need to abide in Him and persevere in righteousness to the end, that is the reality of it, but if it is just by foreknowledge that somebody will be faithful unto death then our salvation is just a play chance and it is a losing game. The Lord indeed knows who are His, but how do we know?

It is a two way cooperative relationship, that is true but the paradox is, really as humans we can do nothing at all.

...'And He Keeps them'...Have we really thought about that so seriously, or sought the Lord about this in a matter of life and death?

Salvation , salvation, salvation from what ? What does Christ give and what is all that He can give me ? When do I need Christ ? How often do I need Him ? Can I received everything from Christ without seeking ? If I received Christ strength today is it possible to loss it tomorrow ? If I have light today and tomorrow darkness overcome me am I still in the Light or darkness and Have I lost the Light or do I still have it ? What are things that I can received without asking and those that I received when i ask ? Is it possible for God to call and i responds not ? Can I lost the holiness He gives me today because of my carelessness and watchful-less? Do all Gain what Gods Has stored in for them ? If not why and if yes how about those that feed on milk while they should have been eating meat as the apostles told us ? Have they Lost something they should have gain or not ? Was Judas ischariot Chosen and was he Lost ? Are we not a chosen spiritual generation as was Judas ?
Salvation in Christ is a relationship all is a free gift. God calls to give freely and man response to receive freely. Even our faithfulness in our responsibility all is freely given because our existence comes from Him . When we pray we fast we take heed all ability is given to us as He planned before the foundation of the world this are the means He will used to Safe and conform us to His will in His image. Therefore let everyman know that he must corporate with Him in His work or else He will lose and lose for eternity. We do not corporate to Him today and tomorrow go on living our own ways and walking in our own judgment and still think He is still the fruits of our works and is happy with our own dirty works , because we believe since we were safe yesterday by collaborating with Him every other thing we do can never be out of His plan even when we have nothing but our own plans and ways. What type of salvation is this ?

Easy-believism implies there is no cost. If there is no cost, then that implies there is nothing to earn.

Tell that to the Rich Young Ruler. He "believed", but could not earn a place with Jesus, because he refused to PAY the cost.

There is no such thing as Easy-Believism.

What was "easy" about the confession of the thief on the cross?

A man (Jesus) next to him was being tortured and killed as a criminal. He was also being mocked by those who rightly prosecuted the thief. The pillars of the community, the righteous leaders who had passed judgment on the thief also passed judgment on the Lord. Ostensibly, the thief accepted his judgement and why did he not accept the Lord's judgement, too.

Do you think it was easy for the thief to arrive at his confession with all those people being present, who had rightly prosecuted him?

What was easy about his last act being a seemingly foolish act?

And what is easy about those of us today, who not only confess and believe on the Lord Jesus (words) but also follow Him each day (works) as if we truly believed our confession?

Is there anything really easy about leaving our comfortable world where we walk by sight (things we are familiar with) to then follow someone with all our heart, mind and strengthwe whom we have never seen?

The thief's confession was not easy, but God gave him grace to hold fast his confession and not waver. God also gave him revelation of who Jesus was despite the seeming overwhelming evidence of Jesus being crucifed as a criminal and having all the so-called righteous pillars of society looking up at you.

Has your Christian confession and walk been easy? What is one sign or indication for us that we should examine ourselves, whether we be in the faith and whether Christ dwells in us?

Maybe...Beware when all men shall speak well of you.

Luke 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

Pilgrim

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Many people think the thief on the cross did not have any "works". If confessing to the throng of the self-righteous and self-assured that Jesus is Lord is not a righteous work to back up true faith, then I don't know what is.

Can we lose our salvation? Yes we can, so let us keep ourselves awake and persevere to the end.

But are we going to lose our salvation? For those who can take it, the Lord assured us that we will not, because He keeps us.

So then, we can live and do as we wish_ not all, read this carefully:

Romans 2:2-11

"We know that God's judgment is right when he condemns people for doing these things.

When you judge people for doing these things but then do them yourself, do you think you will escape God's judgment?

Do you have contempt for God, who is very kind to you, puts up with you, and deals patiently with you? Don't you realize that it is God's kindness that is trying to lead you to him and change the way you think and act?

Since you are stubborn and don't want to change the way you think and act, you are adding to the anger that God will have against you on that day when God vents his anger. At that time God will reveal that his decisions are fair.
He will pay all people back for what they have done.

He will give everlasting life to those who search for glory, honor, and immortality by persisting in doing what is good.

But he will bring anger and fury on those who, in selfish pride, refuse to believe the truth and who follow what is wrong.

There will be suffering and distress for every person who does evil, for Jews first and Greeks as well.

But there will be glory, honor, and peace for every person who does what is good, for Jews first and Greeks as well

God does not play favorites".

Krispy: Do you think that it is possible for a person who has come to Christ to walk away from Him?

Previously, I used the example of my older sister. There is no doubt that my older sister had a relationship with the Lord. We knew her better than anyone and her faith was very sincere.

In the past few years, she has left her husband, married another man and is living in sin (she is doing things that she knows is wrong) and doesn't want to "talk about it."

What do you think the end result is for a person like my sister?

Like Frank said, I think that there is a difference between Jesus "losing" someone or someone "walking away" from Christ because of the many temptations of this world.

Part of the Gospel is to turn to Christ...choosing Him. It is not a "one time decision." Like most of us, we must buffet our bodies into submission because the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life are always at the door.

So, do you think that it is possible that someone can put their hand to the plow and then turn back? Is it possible for someone to not continue in the faith in Christ that they once embraced?

Thank you for the reminder, I am going to look into this matter.

With those verses that I quoted, was the original context 'seriously' misrepresented or compromised with that version.

Well, I don't really want to divert from the topic, I just want a short feedback for the benefit of the readers of this thread.

Exactly! People are saying that WE must endure to the end, and that WE must live in Christ, and that WE must walk in righteousness...

And all of that is true! But who enables you to do that? YOU? You're own strength? If you could do that you would not need a Savior... nor the Holy Spirit.

That is not in dispute. We are talking about someone walking away from Christ.

You can not do any of that by yourself, yet the way people are wording this it sounds as if YOU are going to do that on your own. You could never do it before Christ, and you can not do it now... UNLESS He enables you.

Again, no one is disputing that it is by His life in us that we are saved.

What we are talking about is a tiny little ingredient called, "Yielding" and "Choosing".

Yielding and submitting to God and choosing to follow Him everyday and not walk away.

He gives us grace, but we can fall from grace.

Are we automatons? Do we not play a part in this 2 sided relationship?

God enables you. If you persevere to the end it's only because God enabled and strenghened you to do it.

Ahhh, you are saying IF. IF, IF, IF! There are lots of those little words in the NT.

So there it is... God saves, and God enables. Not you.

Yes, God saves, God enables, but God does not submit or yield on our behalf. Our work is to yield, follow, choose, submit.

He does not fill our temple with Him and then take over. It is a cooperative effort as we choose to bring our wills into harmony with His by yielding our members (spirit, soul, mind and body) to righteousness.

And WHAT IF we harden our heart or fall into unbelief and don't yield, submit, follow or choose Him.

WHAT IF we don't persevere?

Pilgrim

I thought since the thread started with the "prince of preachers" i thought id insert another quote from him that blessed me. He speaks on another topic but it is the "contradictory" part i think Spurgeon understood.

-----

That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring. C.H Spurgeon

.------

And so I believe it is with this topic also

Following on from what hmmhmm quoted by Spurgeon, I have been thinking about this aspect concerning the debate about perserverence of the saints.

There are I believe two sides to view this subjct. From God's view (He is omniscient) He see eeach one with either eternal life or destined eternal death from before we were born. But from our side we cannot possibly know, so we are called to persevere to the end. That is why we are called not to preach God's omniscient knowledge that he has not revealed to us, but man's responsibility to have faith and continue to trust the Lord.

This applies to the 'perserverence of the saints' view of eternal security, but not the 'OSAS no matter what you do after that' view. I think we have to aknowledge these are two quite different positions and to be fair to Krispy he is not promoting the later position.

To keep things on track, this is my understanding of this thread:

What does the Bible say about those who do not persevere till the end?

Is this still the topic?

By the way, that was a good quote by Sturgeon, hmmhmm.

Pilgrim

Hi Pilgrim,

As I understand it those like Krispy who hold to the reformed view of perserverence believe that those who do not persevere til the end will be lost, as do we.

The difference is that they believe that if you are truly 'saved' then you WILL persevere and cannot turn away. If you do then you were never saved!?

This is why I say it is only something that the Godhead (who are omniscient) can really discuss and not for us to make a teaching out of.

Agreed, Dave. Only the Lord knows.

And since none of us know, we should always be ready to help "fallen" brothers come back to the Lord and not consign them to the "lost" bucket.

"Well, I'm not going to help him since he fell away. He must not have been really saved so helping him will be a waste of my time, since it is obvious he was predestined to hell".

hi, i do not approach this question from a calvinistic or arminian view but from an understanjding of covenant and what Jesus did on the cross; cutting a covenant between God and man in His flesh as He was very God and very man. if you read of the covenant between david and jonothan and how david blest the son of jonathan inspite of his fear and hatred for david. how much more shall our Heavenly Father do for us ? Jesus not only cut the covenant but forever stands at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us ,inforcing the covenant.saying that; your sins will find you out... the sins of the flesh will be paid for in the flesh... the relationship becomes strained and the sinner loses confidence in his position and runs to the tree of the knowlege of good and evil rather than the Redeemer and looks to himself to do better and in his flesh there is no way for him to do so and he goes into and dangerous downward spiral.salvation is in Jesus and Him only.jimp

Hi BrotherTom,

The word "ordained" does not mean the same as "predestined." In this context, the word is "prographo." The root "pro" means "before" or "above" and "grapho" means "written" or "described." It is translated elsewhere in the New Testament with this in mind.

In a sense, you could argue that the events of the Revelation were "written" or "described" "before" they actually happen.

Yet, another consideration is in regard to the lack of time (or the earthly concept of time) in Eternity. God knows the end before the beginning. He knew us before the foundations of the Earth were created. He knows our birth, our life and our death. He knows our future. In other words, God has known us FOREVER.

I sometimes wonder if this is what is meant by "predestination." After all, it doesn't mean the same as "predetermined." Sometimes, I think that people may have read too far into the concept.

For instance, I know that the month of May is just a few weeks away. I suspect that I can safely say that I will visit the SermonIndex website during the month of May. Those on the other side of Eternity already know whether this will happen. The actual event is recorded in the "books" that the dead will be judged from. From the perspective of eternity, one could say that the month of May and whether or not I visit SermonIndex during that month is "ordained" to happen because it is already "prographo."

Regardless, what Frank said earlier is true. The essence of this world is that man must choose to either serve God wholeheartedly, with lukewarm affection or ignore Him altogether.

This begs the question of whether or not a person who has come to Christ can ever turn his/her back on the Lord. Can a person turn his back on the Lord after having walked with Him? My sister did this. I know others who have as well. What will be the end of such a person?

This begs the question of whether or not a person who has come to Christ can ever turn his/her back on the Lord. Can a person turn his back on the Lord after having walked with Him?

Brothers and Sisters,

If we all could just be real for a moment...we have all turned our back on the Lord after salvation in various ways. There is no one here who has some years under their belt, who have not "turned their back on the Lord". Who has been perfect?

So, yes, one can turn their back on the Lord for a moment, for days, for weeks, or for eternity.

Thank the Lord that that you responded to His grace and love and came back to Him. But you did not have to. That is the beauty in God creating choosing creatures. He will have a nation and a race and a people some day who are not automatons. And who willingly chose the cross and Him over all the dainties (flesh and world) of Egypt. But it takes a lot of "failure" to learn His ways and more importantly, to learn and know deep down that His ways are always good for us and any other way is death.

The Lord wants us to overcome. He has given Himself entirely to us in order that we may overcome.

In the end, we will throw all of our crowns and rewards at His feet and declare that He alone is worthy.

Pilgrim

Well brethren if salvation is only of the Lord and we are not responsible at all in any use of our freewill to believe and continue to believe, but that OSAS is true because we were elected before the foundation of the world to be saved because God decided to make us one of the elect then why not go on and say God makes everybody finally His elect because He so Loved the whole world.

I mean the bible says God is Love and if He elects some to eternal life then why not all because if Jesus died for some then why not all because all have sinned and can’t save themselves and we know that a loving God does not want any to go to hell and if he has the power to save some then why does he not have the power to save all if man has nothing at all to do with salvation.

Blessings…from brother rbanks

rbanks,

That is simply profound (and profoundly simple). If God is love, why doesn't He just predestine, elect and save all men? Wouldn't that be the compassionate and loving thing to do since it is His power anyway that saves and there is nothing we can do?

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

But why doesn't this seem to happen?

Possibly, because man has a part to play?

Pilgrim

The last two posts by Pilgrim and rbanks seem to 'hit the nail on the head'. So very real and true and cut through the theorising.

Pilgrim:"Thank the Lord that that you responded to His grace and love and came back to Him. But you did not have to. That is the beauty in God creating choosing creatures. He will have a nation and a race and a people some day who are not automatons. And who willingly chose the cross and Him over all the dainties (flesh and world) of Egypt. But it takes a lot of "failure" to learn His ways and more importantly, to learn and know deep down that His ways are always good for us and any other way is death."

rbanks:"I mean the bible says God is Love and if He elects some to eternal life then why not all because if Jesus died for some then why not all because all have sinned and can’t save themselves and we know that a loving God does not want any to go to hell and if he has the power to save some then why does he not have the power to save all if man has nothing at all to do with salvation."

Thank you!

Also what ccchhhrrriiisss said about predestination is good. That is, that predestination is more about what is pre-written by God because He foreknows, not pre-determined. You could say God predestines according to His foreknowledge. But here we are bordering onto things that are beyond our full understanding and completely outside our experience (we don't have complete foreknowledge or omniscience).

hi brethren permit me to repost my post regarding the letter of john ,i was hopeing i could get an iterprtation on the verses ,insted of being ignored ,,i never had a single christan who believes he can loses his salvation give an exposision on these verse ,and others in the gosple of john

regarding pauls teaching about israle being cut of because of unbelife and the gentiles being grafted in to the tree

it is worth noting that all israle before the rejection of the gosple in a colective fassion ,were natural branches in the olive tree of god they were a chossen people

this had nothing to do with them being born of god and that being the reason why they were called branches ,as rement theoligy go most of those brances were ungodly pharisess and sadusses ,but were still branches in the tree ,untill the chosen time of god to commit them to disobedance as paul said ,and cut them of from the blessing of the gosple till the fullness of the time of the getiles is come,,
by paul saying that you have been grafted in is in the contex as the jews were natural branches and as a nation were exposed to the blessing of god ,now we as a whole ,the genites,,are grafted in to the blessing of god which is manfested in the gosple ,,the time is for us to experance the call of god ,,the grafting in is a colective expression of god turing his hand and eye to us ,,it has nothing to do with persons singular being grafted in as they become born again ,,that is clearly not the contex

as with the parable of the vine and branches that jesus spoke to his deciples ,this to his a colective expression of israle ,,he was speaking to jews and refuring to them as a blessed nation ,and him being the one who blessed and choose israle to be his people , it was not spoken in contex to a gentile and certainly not in the contex of them being attached to him through the new birth

he is saying you jews are the branches my chosen whom i love and many times have gatherd you as a hen gathers her chicks ,,,
every branch in me that does not bare good fruit is cast in to the fire and burned ,now is time for pruning

this is not at all speaking directly to us as gentile converts and us losing our salvation if we dont bare fruit ,,that is not in any way shape or form the oridginal contex ,tho im fully aware this is how many interpret it

il repost my last post ,if any one would like to give there interprtation ,,,iam utterey convinced in the interprtation iv expressed ,, but would apreciate ,the oposing view thankyou

i have to agree with krisipy and the brother he quoted

what do you brothers say about the letter of john ,which seems to have verses that are in the contex of apostates
as krisipy said

they went out from us because they were not of us
if they had been of us they would have continued with us
but they went out from us ,that it might be manifets they were never of us ,,,,,,,,john say in the same letter you are of god little children

we see that those who went out were not of god ,but as john says of the devil

1 John, Chapter 3

008:

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

009:

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

is it possable for a true child of god to fall aways from the faith and which is characterized by a sinfull life

not according to verse 9 ,,becasue gods seed is in him and he is sealed with the spirit ,,,the two clear reasons why a christain does not fall away as did the people spoken of in

1 John, Chapter 2

019:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

020:

But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

for his seed remains in him is one
because he is born of god ,was the second
and verse 20 of chapter 2 gives the same reason in others words ,why did you not go out with them ?,becasue you have unction your are born again you have gods seed in you

1 John, Chapter 3

006:

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

007:

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

008:

He that committeth sin is of the devil;

who ever practices sin persues sin ,continues in sin ,or the direct contex of the letter falls back into sin ,and apostasises

has never seen god ,nor has he known god in the contex of abiding in him and being truly born again

the verse can be literaly taken ,as who ever has not knowen or seen god has never abided in him in the first place ,but he is of the devil ,his sinfull life that we see in this case proves he never abided in christ

but he who is born of god keeps him self and the evil one does not touch him 5,18 of 1 john
19 WE KNOW WE ARE OF GOD AND THE WHOLE WORLD LIES UNDER THE SWAY OF THE WICKED ONE

a true christian will not fall in to satans traps , and become a disobedant child giving him self to the prince and the power of the air wich is the spirit that works in the sons of disobedance
my sheep hear my voice
and i know them
and they follow me
and i give to them eturnal life
AND THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH
NEITHER SHALL ANYONE PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY HAND

John, Chapter 6

037:

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

038:

For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

039:

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

our father has a souvern will and plan for is elect ,
in is son he fullfills his will
christ did and is doing gods will and saving through santfication of his spirit is the mark of gods work and he who began a good work in you will finish it dont doubt gods power in you ,all things are posable ,dont bye in to the lie of the devil that you might walk away and deni his son ,,
i will sprinkle clean water on you and you will be clean
i will take out that heart of stone
and put into you a heart of flesh
and i will wright my laws on that heart
and I WILL CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES AND JUDGMENT
you are a new creation in christ ,
old things have passed away all things have become new

IAM WORKING IN YOU BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO
FOR MY GOOD PLEASURE
YOU ARE MY CHILDREN ,AND I WILL NOT FORSAKE YOU
I HAVE PRAYED TO MY FATHER THAT WE MAY BE ONE
AND THAT YOU WILL BEHOLD MY GLORY THAT I HAD BEFOR THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD
YOU ARE MINE ,AND I AM YOUR
MY BLOOD HAS BROUGHT YOU BACK TO ME ,AND MY FATHER WAS PLEASED TO HAVE ME DIE FOR YOU
SHALL I NOT RECIEVE THE REWARD OF MY SUFFERINGS
SHALL I NOT HAVE THE FRUIT OF MY DOINGS
SHALL I NOT RECIEVE THE PATITIONS I HAVE ASKED

MY FATHER LOVES ME AND HAS GIVERN YOU IN TO MY HAND
SO ENDURE TILL THE END AND KEEP MY COMANDMENT
I GIVE YOU POWER THROUGH MY WORD AND SPIRIT TO ACCOMLISH ALL THAT I ASK ,,IT IS I WHO WORKS IN YOU ,BOTH TO WILL AND DO FOR MY GOOD PLEASURE

I COME QUICKLY

WATCH ASK KNOCK

Brothagary - I just want to pick up on one point you make.

You said regarding John 15: "as with the parable of the vine and branches that jesus spoke to his deciples ,this to his a colective expression of israle ,,he was speaking to jews and refuring to them as a blessed nation ,and him being the one who blessed and choose israle to be his people , it was not spoken in contex to a gentile and certainly not in the contex of them being attached to him through the new birth"

If we look at the setting of when Jesus spoke these words, it was clearly during the last supper (see ch. 13 through to ch.18). So it was not spoken about Israel as a whole, but to His disciples as individuals who had attached themselves to Him.
Look at verse 3 "You are already clean.." That cannot be unbelieving Isreal (or unbelieving anyone!).

I say this respectfully. Too often do folk dismiss passages like this as 'For Israel and not us!' because it does not line up with their doctrine. I have also heard this said about the whole book of Hebrews! You need to put 'your' doctrine to one side and let God's word say what it says and if neccesary lay down your doctrine if it does not agree with what the text plainly says.

I would rather have no doctrinal positions and let God's word speak to my heart, rather than bind myself to any particular doctrine and miss what God says to me in His word. I make an extreme statement to make my point you understand.

well brother actualy jesus was allready attached to them he chosses them before the foundation of the world chosse them as part of the jewish nation ,but that is beside the point ,,,,just because this happend at dinner and he said you are allready clean becasue of the word i have spoken to you ,clensing them with the washing of the water of the word ,
doesnt change the fact that the nation israle had both believers and unbelievers so to speak

wether he chosse and singled out some men whom the father gave him or not ,doesnt effect the contex brother

brother with all respect back to you ,i can say the same too offten brothers misinterptet passage like this ,because it does not line up with there doctrine

brother permit me to beg you to put asside your doctrine and interpret in its related contex

i used to believe this spoke of the bornagaing christan ,and i did put my preconviction and indoctrination aside ,and now i see this way ,,so i apresaite the advise ,did that allready

brothers we all have doctrine and interpretation ,you cant have no doctrine and let the word speak for its self thats what unbelievers do with our bible ,and look at there understanding ,,, dont do that brother,,,we need to have teaching or doctrine that sets a fondation for undestanding ,,,,maby the word for that is hermenutics

blessings

brothergary,

So you seem to be saying that when Jesus spoke to His disciples (alone in the upper room) about the importance of abiding in Him (the vine), it only applied to them as Jews, but not to any believing gentiles.
So you have two churches, one Jewish and one Gentile! Seems to go against all teaching of scripture I think. There is ONE church and ONE body, not two.

Therefore what Jesus said to His disciples (and not to the general Jewish nation) about abiding I take as applying to me. I don't know of one credible bible teacher that would say John 15 does not apply to us today, no matter if they are reformed or otherwise.

I am just reading it as it says and not taking any doctrinal position on it.

Well, as you can see from this thread, there are some doctrines/dogmas that are a direct attack upon the character and nature of God, though they sound good on the surface.

Regarding the branches in John 15:

Gentiles were grafted in and partake of the root and the vine along with the Jews.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

John 15 is a spiritual lesson in abiding in Jesus Christ and all Christians (Jew or Gentile) who don't abide in the Vine (only branches can abide in a Vine), will be cast forth. This applies to all Christians where (by the way)there is neither Jew nor Gentile anymore because we are all "In Christ".

Gary, your belief seems to be a very fringe belief. Like HeyDave, I have heard people say this book of Scripture or that chapter of Scripture is only for the Jews, but this is the first time I have heard it about John 15. Do you also believe only Jews are indwelt by the Spirit of God?

Pilgrim

Thanks Pilgrim, HeyDave, and many others for your posts!

This brings me to another point. Early this morning I asked my wife how important was faith in the whole scope of salvation. She said that it was very important because we have to believe in order to be saved. I asked her how important was grace and then I said to her that I believe these two were most important to God’s great salvation.

I then asked her if God had the power to save everybody and she said yes and so I asked her then why doesn’t He and she replied because man is given a choice to believe. Then I said let’s take our two children whom we dearly love and let’s say they were both about to fall off a cliff to their death and you had the power to save them both but one didn’t want to be saved what would you do. Would you save one of them but not the other because one didn’t want to be saved. Then I said to her, now be honest in that you have the power to save both but one does not want to be, so what would you do, and she said I would save both anyway. I believe I know why because of her love for both.

This brings me to another point that most of us could say there was a time we probably didn’t want to accept Jesus as the Lord and savior of our life but yet God still sought after us because of His great love for us. He is the one who chose us and not us choosing Him. He is the one who loved us first before we loved Him. He is the one who drew us and I don’t believe for one minute that God would let one of His die and go to hell because of their being a time in life when they didn’t want to be saved because of man being in darkness and being blind to the good news of salvation. His light and truth must penetrate that darkness in order for us to come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

This leads to another point for now in that man has been given some responsibility in this whole relationship with God and still must exercise His will in a loving relationship with God. The fact that man can’t save himself and many are blind to the truth of God’s loving salvation does not stop God from doing everything that he can up to the point of almost violating man’s will that has been given to him. This leads me to believe that if man is saved then it is due to the great loving grace and mercy of God and if man is not saved it is because he has rejected God’s only way of salvation to the point of God almost violating man’s will that was given to Him by a loving God who gave this to him so they could have a responsible relationship together in order to have a mutual love. This is the only way for God to not have us be like a puppet on a string and in the end God is “just” in doing everything that he does because He has given man a responsibility in that He created him in his own image and likeness.

Finally there will be no one in hell that God didn’t do everything in His power to try and save them. I do not believe that God has the power to save everyone, but want, because He just decided that some wasn’t worth saving. I believe the greatest reward for Jesus’ suffering is to try and get everybody saved by the power and leading of the Holy Spirit if at all possible.

Blessings…from brother rbanks

The salvation that Jesus offers is not a THING which a person can possess. That means the phrase "got saved" (unbiblical term) as it is widely used today is invalid. It is not an idea, concept, or a philosophy. It does not involve a prescribed methodology, it is not a theological principle, and there are not a certain number of steps to follow in order for salvation to operate in one's life.

Salvation is the result of a relationship a person has with Jesus. It is inappropriate to describe salvation in terms of some unchangeable event which a person has no part in. If someone is in an accident and their arm is severed from their body, there is nothing that can change THAT. They are a one armed person from then on, (i.e. that is their status). When a child is born, they become alive--that is the child's status (until it dies). When a person is born again, they too are alive (spiritually). As long as they eat spiritual food, drink spiritual drink and exercise their spiritual man so that he REMAINS ALIVE and gains ascendancy over the old, carnal man, when they reach eternity they will continue in the new life they began with Jesus AND CONTINUED IN. If a person is persuaded that some event or belief he holds gives him irrevocable good standing with God (when actually he still loves the flesh, participates in, and seeks the things of the world); and holding this mistaken belief, that man passes into eternity, the death he lives and operates in when he dies he will still be operating in, in eternity. The death he lives in and operates in while living, will be his status in eternity--he will be separated from God forever, just as he was on earth. If you die separated from God, you will not be rejoined to Him in eternity. The Bible does not teach contrary to this.

The gospel message that encourages people to approach salvation as a commodity or a possession rather than as a result of their relationship with the Father is a damnable heresy, and must be forsaken by everyone who believes in it before they can enter the Kingdom of God. The Bible says that the Kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. If a person has a REAL, PROPER relationship with Jesus, they will live in righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit: the Kingdom of God.

We don't window shop for spiritual commodities. Born-again, I'll take one of those, baptism, yep, got that. Filled with the Holy Spirit? That's in my shopping cart, too. Member of the correct denomination? Of course! I am now a full fledged card carrying member of the Church and everything is irrevocable because God does not take away His gifts, therefore I'm in!!! Yeah!!! Isn't God good???

A FRIEND OF THE WORLD IS AN ENEMY OF GOD. James 4:4

Pilgrim

Approved,

I think you are thinking that rbanks was saying that God does not save everyone because He (God) does not consider them worth saving. rbanks was disagreeing with this line of thought. At least that is what I understood.

Pilgrim

Thanks Pilgrim for understanding!

Sorry Approved that I didn't make it clearer so there wouldn't be any misunderstanding. I should have worded it better.

There are a lot of mysteries concerning predestination, but I just can't believe that God would leave many of His creation out of His plan of salvation, only because it was His decision to save some, only because he was not willing to save all.

Blessings...from brother rbanks

The distiction between LAST Adam, rather than second Adam is very important.

1 Corinthians 15:45-47 says:
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.

Jesus is the LAST Adam because he took all that belong to the Adamic race (all of us and our sin) and it died with Him. He was raised 'the second man' and we in Him are now part of a new mankind, not after Adam, but after Christ.

Every blessing, my dinner is ready - must go!

quoted from Krispy:

When a sinner enters into hell... God gets glory. He gets glory because of His righteousness and perfect judgement.

As to trying to reason why this or why that? Who are you, oh man? If God predestines to save some, and not others then that is His decision to make, and His attributes would make that decision perfectly just and holy... regardless of whether or not we can reason in our own minds why He would do that.

He doesnt care what you think, frankly. God does not consult us.
-quote

We might think this is ok as in thinking that we are giving God all the glory but there is nobody in hell that is giving any praise to God. The dead can't praise God only the living.

Let's roll the clock forward Krispy and let's just say that, (God forbid this should ever happen to you my brother) you found yourself in hell because you were deceived into thinking you were one of those predestine to eternal life but found out that you weren't, do you really think that you would say "well glory to God He saved those in heaven and glory to God He sent me to hell" but praise God he saved some even if I wasn't one of them so I'm happy that He saved some and I'm also happy that He sent me and others to hell. I don't believe you could say that then but it is easy to say that when you believe you are one of the chosen few and have excepted what I consider a cold and lack of Love doctrine.

Blessings...from brother rbanks

God puts the responsibility on man for accepting or rejecting Him.

Matthew 16:25
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

He did not die for all and predestine the majority to hell at the same time.
He died for all the "whosoevers".
Luke 6:47
47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

1 Timothy 2:4
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

It's kind of contradictory of God to tell us that He desires all men to be saved knowing that He has condemned many to hell. What kind of a gospel is it that makes God out to be a liar?

If you cannot preach a gospel that is for ALL men, you may as well pack it up now, because your message will have no power. No one wants to hear a message that is basically playing Lotto.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL MEN

Paul hoped to save some of All Men.
1 Corinthians 9:22
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Pilgrim

1 Corinthians 2:16
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

When a sinner enters hell it will be because of his/her rejection of the light that was presented to them.

The key is that they are responsible for rejecting the Truth. And there will be no misunderstandings as God reveals the hearts.

Pilgrim

hey dave ,what iam saying is at the time jesus spoke to his jewish decipls this parable it was spoken in contex to the jews and not gentils ,,because as we jesus only went out to the lost sheep of the house isral ,as he said his ministrey in the flesh was to the jew , in that contex he spoke the parable ,,now as getiles we have been grafted in to the tree or the vine as a whole as paul said ,but not through the new birth through ,god turning his eye and hand to the gentile people as a whole and in that contex it aplies to us we as a gentile people have been grafted in to colective blessing of the propagation of the gosple and the gifts of the spirit ,and as a whole any gentile who does not execpt god gifts and bare good fruit will be cut of bundled up and cast in the the evalasting fire until the time of the gentile is fulfilled ,
so if a gentile does not recieve christ and adide in the vine he will be cut of

so if a gentile does not recieve christ and adide in the vine he will be cut off

Hi Gary,

For the sake of clarification. Did you mean to say "not receive Christ and abide in the vine".

If so, what does "abide in the Vine" mean to you?

Thanks,
Pilgrim

gyes think the bible does show ,that gods gosple was not even givern to some people ,,his deciples asked why jesus why do you speak in parables and he said to you friends it is givern to no the mysters of the kingdom ,but to others ,it has not been givern ,this is why i speak in parable ,so that hearing they may NOT HEAR ,seeing they may not percieve ,LEST THEY turn and be healed

he has mercy on who he wills
and he hardens whom he wills
but you will say oh man ,who can resist his will
but who are you oh man to reply back to god
shall the think form say to the one who formed it why did
you make me this way

my scriptue memory is not verry good ,but by memory
god has not givern the blessing of the goosple to all men
but he has chossen some to offer it too

he is not under oblgation to ofree grace to all men ,other wise it would not be grace but a obligationl debt god is not under obligation by a higher law or we by our pitfull understand do not bring god undera percieved oblgation to save all of us

scince the creation of the world his invisable atirubutes are cleraly seen by them things wich are made,even his eturnal power and god head so we are with out excuse

most men have rejected the revalation that god has givern of him self ,defiled there concences ,and dilibretly broken his laws and blasphemed
and out of his grace and mercy and GOOD PLEASURE offers to save some and knows who he will save all that the father has givern me will come to me his will is that i will lose none but raise him up in the last day ,he shall never perish

hi pligrim to me it means to be in the vine ,and then to remain in the vine ,,,,but where i think i differ from the regular arminian ,is one who has truly been attached to the vine ,the evedence is that he is abiding and will abide ,because of the one who works in you both to will and to do for his good pleasure

if we understand grafting ,we know that not all thoses grafs take properly to the vine many remain stunted and will be cut off and the ones baring good growth and fruit,a left

blessings

i think the scripture frank posted ,the end of it will have two situations ,,one ,the true bornagaing christan will hear the message of paul and repent and continue,and two,,the others who are like judus ,,experance the seeds of repentance ,and liberation from the power of gods gosple as judas preacherd the gosple and cast out demons ,,but as jesus said one of them was a devil ,tho he look like a christan ,,,,the change was only on the mind
and never a compleat change of the heart ,these were never a true christians as judus was never a true deciple

so i think the letter to the galations ,was geared to apeal to both types people

hi arm kelly ,,,christ did give an explantion ,he implyed it was to vail the gosple ,, he even explained what the parables ment to those who he had chosen so it was not obscure to them

well i think it is verry possable to apply it to day ,or is is possable to see it happening to day ,,,by people who still say more or less the same about jesus andd the word of god ,,give or take signs and wonders

paul even said of god sending out strong delusion

he shows mercy on whom he wills and he hardens whom he wills
this can be conected to a vailing of the gosple for gods reasons and pleasurs

your wecome ,your humility armkelly is refreshing

going back to the vine and branches ,heres some old testament example of the branches and the vine being the jews and not bornagaing christans

isa
7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel And the men of Judah His delightful plant. Thus He looked for justice, but behold, bloodshed; For righteousness, but behold, a cry of distress.

jesus parable is in conection to this brothers

To answer the objection of some who believe and say, "I think that there is a difference between Jesus "losing" someone or someone "walking away"." I offer the following.

And I will cut an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do good to them. But I will put My fear in their heart, that they shall not depart from Me. (LITV)

And I wyll set vp an euerlasting couenaunt with them [namely] that I wyll neuer ceasse to do them good, and that I wyll put my feare in their heartes, so that they shall not runne away from me. (Bishops' Bible 1568).

And I will make an euerlasting couenant with them, that I will not turne away from them, to doe them good, but I will put my feare in their hearts, that they shall not depart from mee. (1611 KJV)

"I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me."

"They shall not depart from me." If there were only that text in the Bible, it would suffice to prove the final perseverance of the saints: "They SHALL NOT depart from me." The salvation of those who are in covenant with God is herein provided for by an absolute promise of the omnipotent God, which must be carried out. It is plain, clear, unconditional, positive: "They shall not depart from me."

Q. Suppose a child of God should utterly depart from the Lord, and wholly lose the life of God: what then? Would he nevertheless be saved?

A. His salvation lies in the fact that he will never utterly lose the life of God. We tempt the LORD by asking what would happen in a case which can never occur. I know that it is offensive to some to speak in this manner. But herein lies the very truth of the promise of God's salvation.

If any differ on this I cannot help it; but I would ask them not to differ from the text; for the Scripture cannot be broken. Read it: "I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me." There it stands, "They shall not depart from me."

Q. By what instrumentality does God maintain this fear in the hearts of his people?

A. It is the work of the Spirit of God: the Holy Spirit usually works by means. The fear of God is kept alive in our hearts by the hearing of the Word; for faith comes by hearing, and holy fear comes through faith. Be diligent, then, in hearing the Word. That fear is kept alive in our hearts by reading the Scriptures; for as we feed on the Word, it breathes within us that fear of God which is the beginning of wisdom. This fear of God is maintained in us by the belief of revealed truth, and meditation thereon.

"God will give them a heart to fear him, Jer. 32:39. That which he requires of those whom he takes into covenant with him as his people is that they fear him, that they reverence his majesty, dread his wrath, stand in awe of his authority, pay homage to him, and give him the glory due unto his name. Now what God requires of them he here promises to work in them, pursuant to his choice of them as his people. Note, As it is God's prerogative to fashion men's hearts, so it is his promise to his people to fashion theirs aright; and a heart to fear God is indeed a good heart, and well fashioned. It is repeated (Jer.32:40): I will put my fear in their hearts, that is, work in them gracious principles and dispositions, that shall influence and govern their whole conversation. Teachers may put good things into our heads, but it is God only that can put them into our hearts, that can work in us both to will and to do."

"First, God will never leave nor forsake them: I will not turn away from them to do them good. Earthly princes are fickle, and their greatest favourites have fallen under their frowns; but God's mercy endures for ever. Whom he loves he loves to the end. God may seem to turn from this people (Isa.54:8), but even then he does not turn from doing and designing them good. Secondly, They shall never leave nor forsake him; that is the thing we are in danger of. We have no reason to distrust God's fidelity and constancy, but our own; and therefore it is here promised that God will give them a heart to fear him for ever, all days, to be in his fear every day and all the day long (Prov.23:17), and to continue so to the end of their days. He will put such a principle into their hearts that they shall not depart from him. Even those who have given up their names to God, if they be left to themselves, will depart from him; but the fear of God ruling in the heart, will prevent their departure. That, and nothing else, will do it. If we continue close and faithful to God, it is owing purely to his almighty grace and not to any strength or resolution of our own." - M.H.

"It has been written in the Prophets, They "shall" all "be taught of God." So then everyone who hears and learns from the Father comes to Me;"(John 6:45)

"And this is the Father's will who hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me, I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." John 6:39

If God is able, after we have been saved, to keep us believing in Christ without violating our freedom, why can't He, before we are saved, cause us to believe in Christ in order to become saved--without violating our wills?

Pilgrim