a reformed view of a doctrine prevelent in the baptise denomination the carnal christan
verry powerfull preaching ,verry convicting , classic 1964 bible preaching
part one
http://www.sermonaudio.com/playpopup.asp?SID=11110485122
part 2
Well I just finished Part 1 of this message - Praise the Lord for SOMEONE articulating what we see all around us! Thank you for posting this - it is well worth the listen...
Gary
That which you have posted is a 'modern' reformed view on the topic. The classic view from an original reformer is below. The two views are VERY different.
“Again in 7:14 the Apostle says: “I am carnal, sold under sin.” That is the proof of a spiritual and wise man. He knows that he is carnal, and he is displeased with himself; indeed he hates himself and praises the Law of God, which he recognizes because he is spiritual. But the proof of a foolish, carnal man is this, that he regards himself as spiritual and is pleased with himself.” Martin Luther Commentary of the Romans Chapter 7.
Anyone here willing to claim that he/she is NOT carnal?
OJ
You have to listen to the message....it is not that one doesn't have "carnal" moments or failings...it is the PATTERN OF THE LIFE.....the message says exactly what Luther says - that a true believer would NOT be pleased with himself, and is UNCOMFORTABLE when he sins, and is ALWAYS wanting to grow more spiritually.... I am not sure I am seeing the difference that you mention Old_Joe....
edited due to wrong post
Quote: "it is not that one doesn't have carnal" moments or failings...it is the PATTERN OF THE LIFE.
So if you have carnal moments or failings what is it that causing that failures?
It's simple the answer is "SIN" that remains in the believer after conversion.
I can't believe that you can't see how perverse and hypocritical this doctrine of the one nature is turning "SIN" in the believer to "carnal moments" or "failings".
Moses was one who didn't want to see his condition he says "let me not see my wretchedness" Num 11:15.
For Moses the failure to deal with those "moments of carnal failings" "THE SIN IN HIS LIFE" it end up with judgement from God because he was misrepresenting God with his outbursts of anger and he was not allowed to lead the people into the promised land. Num 20:11-12.
I did listen to it mama27.
However, every Christian is carnal including Paul, which is how the reformers dealt with it. It was not dealt with by saying some Christians are carnal and some are not.
Unbelievers can be uncomfortable when they sin as well, King Saul did a great job displaying this for us. Solomon and Lot as believers also did a great job in showing us that though not desired, sin even up to a 'pattern of life' can be evident in a believer. But neither justified themselves in any way as did Saul. Preaching against the so-called "Carnal Christian" causes those who can't see themselves in such a way to justify themselves, this is what unbelievers do.
As a preacher, Mr. Martin is to condemn all carnality, including things which he finds in himself. There are thinkgs ike debate, whispering, boasting, divisions etc. that are overlooked but are listed as great evils. The 'debate' that goes on here is listed in Romans 1 framed between murder and deceit and all included next to sodomy, but nary a mention of that for carnality. It is not just THEY which are carnal, it is WE which are carnal.
When we concern ourselves with THEM it tends to exalt US in our own eyes, but our concern is not with THEM, it is with US. When we see and deal with that which is in US, enough more of that which is in US will be shown to US so that we have a neverending supply to deal with, before we ever have to concern ourselves with THEM.
WE are all carnal, let each deal with his own carnality.
OJ
Paul condemned "carnality". Only those that pervert Romans 7 wrest what this Apostle spoke to His Church. This perversion of The Word of GOD is devilish.
--------------------------------
Brother Gary, in the other thread you say that the branches that abide in the vine is written to the Jews -
going back to the vine and branches ,heres some old testament example of the branches and the vine being the jews and not bornagaing christans
isa
7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel And the men of Judah His delightful plant. Thus He looked for justice, but behold, bloodshed; For righteousness, but behold, a cry of distress.jesus parable is in conection to this brothers
- from the "Can we lose our salvation" thread.
When we begin to seperate His Covenant people from ourselves - we make the second biggest mistake that many have done since Constantine's time.
What does His Word say. Is "the Vine" any different from "the Olive tree"? Hardly!
Rom 11:18-24 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. **Be not highminded, but fear**: for if God spared not
the "natural branches", **take heed lest he also spare not thee.**
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness,
**IF thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.**
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in **again**.
For if thou wert cut out of **the olive tree which is "wild by nature", and "wert graffed contrary to nature into a *good* olive tree": how much more shall these, *which be the natural branches*, be graffed into *their own* olive tree?**
Paul condemned "carnality".
Of course he did, and included himself in the condemnation so that Christ alone would be glorified.
Are you carnal JIG?
OJ
sister ane ,,,im not sure if you read all my posts in that other thread ,,because i never said or even inplyed that we should not aply the teaching of the vine and branches to us as gentiles ,,what i said was we should stay in the flow and contex of scripture ,,,if jesus was refuring back to old testament prophecy about the vinyard ,we should understand in that contex them aply it us
i see you have highlighted verses for me to see as if may not have seen them
as i was saying verse 11 shows that the stumble ,or the cuting of of the jews from the blessings of the gosple ,,in that same moment god turned his blessings ,his hand and eye towards the gentile ,,,,it says verse 11 salvation has come to the gentiles ,,, there is a general grafting in of the gentiles into the blessings of god in a way that has never been before
bare allways in mind that not all grafts will take or connect to the branch ,and recieve the life giving flow of sap in a way whereby it bares GOOD FRUIT
even nature branches will not nesasarly bare good fruit ,and as with the jews ,they where cut of in one pruning session in the season when god decide it,,,
in doing that he made way for some fresh branches from wild sick trees ,,,,
when the time of the getiles is over at the season that god chooses ,all gentile grafted branches ,THAT DID NOT PRODUCE good fruit ,will be conidered bad branches and cut from the vine ,,then god will turn again to the jews ,and graft in the natural branches ,and those that that take and graft in to the vine in a sufishet manner and bare fruit ,will remain
im think the flow of the and contex of the vine parrable and the olive tree parrable point towards a real agracutural experance ,,,,,in the end the healthy and ture grafts ,will be known by there fruits ,and only those will be concidered part of the vine
think it is also worth noticing ,in the parrable of the vine and branches ,,that jesus says ,that i have spoken this parrable that you joy may be full , he did to speak the parrable as warning to casue the fear of god or hell ,at that time ,,but a fullness of joy ,,,,,
and sister keeping that parable in the contex intened here will cause joy ,and strength ,and that is exactly what jesus was doing noing the days that layed ahead of his deciples
blessings
Ooooh. :) Good. I got worried with that wee bit that I quoted.
when the time of the getiles is over at the season that god chooses ,all gentile grafted branches ,THAT DID NOT PRODUCE good fruit ,will be conidered bad branches and cut from the vine ,,then god will turn again to the jews ,and graft in the natural branches ,and those that that take and graft in to the vine in a sufishet manner and bare fruit ,will remain
Yes, horticulture. Reminds me of Luke 8 with the sower of the seed and what we do with that seed in our hearts and Matt 13 & 25 [etc], in that, it's the branches that don't 'abide' in the vine by their own choice and not the fault of the husbandman that grafted them in or had sown the seed.
'Thank you' for taking the time to expand your thoughts, Brother.
Appreciated!
I hadn't been to this site below in a number of years.
Just listened to the Introduction to 1Corinthians so far. Seemed pretty good - though I wondered if he judges poor sad Jeremiah by his "happy fruits".
Anyhow - it's a weekly [Thursday] live Bible Study by Chip Brogden but the past weeks stay up for catch up.
They're up to 1Corth 3 with 4 coming this week.
http://theschoolofchrist.org/mp3/1corinthians-intro.html
Does anyone know what happened to all of the messages that he used to have up on his Site? There were a very many but they appear to be gone.
GOD Bless!
your welcome ,no i dont no what happend to them ,,but you will more then likly find him on you tube ,or from there own church web site ,,,,,,blessings ,,im off to work its neary 530 in the morning have a good day///////
Brother,
I just wanted to let you know that posting to outside sermons from sermon index is not encouraged from these forums. This is for many reasons but namely to prevent abuse. I hope this helps for future reference.
It is a good subject of discussion though and I trust it will bear fruit.
When we concern ourselves with THEM it tends to exalt US in our own eyes, but our concern is not with THEM, it is with US. When we see and deal with that which is in US, enough more of that which is in US will be shown to US so that we have a neverending supply to deal with, before we ever have to concern ourselves with THEM.
Of course he did, and included himself in the condemnation so that Christ alone would be glorified.
We're to form our doctrine from the Whole of The Word of GOD Only.
The Whole of the New Testament contradicts your belief that Paul was speaking in the present tense about himself rather than figuritively in Romans 7, as Wesley, just for one, brings out .... but you choose to believe it so that you can continue on with that belief as an excuse for your behavior and to continue to cause the Biblically weak to stumble. By making Paul out to be "a slave to sin - carnal and sold under sin" you've contradicted ALL else that he and all the of the other books of the New Testament state, and by doing that you have made yourself an outcast. Also because, when we spoke on other threads last year about "obeying GOD and His Word because we Love Him" - You came against us all for that - So it's no surprise that these two sermons in the OP would 'bother' you enough for you to feel the need to post onto this thread and against these messages - as the sermons expose what you attack most ... "What is Written".
Do you truly believe that you're gaining a following here? You may get a few truly carnal ones to join you - but as long as there's some here with a caring heart for the young in Christ - someone will always expose your deceptions.
Thank you, Brother Gary.
JIG
I am not here to gain a following. If I was here to do that I would play all nicey-nicey and fill people with flattery, but as you can plainly see, that is not the case.
Are you carnal JIG?
OJ
Quote: By making Paul out to be "a slave to sin - carnal and sold under sin" you've contradicted ALL else that he and all the of the other books of the New Testament state
Rom 7:9 Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.
So when exactly was Paul alive?
What does Paul say he clearly stated that we were all spiritually dead in our sin in Ephesians 2:1-3.
2 Corinthians 4:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
Are not Jew and Gentile all dead in sin because we didn't have the Son?
So when exactly was Paul alive?
Edited for spelling
Dear Old-Joe and murrcolr,
I believe I see the disconnect between you and mama27. I agree with you completely, and yet I agree with her.
I think it might be in the way you're using/understanding the word 'carnal'. I have found that there are two ways in which people use this word:
1.Predisposed to sin by nature and by virtue of being in the flesh; sold under sin. (I believe this is how you're defining carnal) Like you said, this is true of ALL men, including believers, for all are selfish, proud, given to folly and debate, lust etc.
2.Living in a lifestyle of constant UNREPENTED sin.(mama's definition) This is not true long-term for a believer. You mentioned that even Saul was uncomfortable with his sin. Yes, sin makes everyone uncomfortable because of its consequences. Everyone is afraid of tarnishing their reputation, death, shame, getting caught etc., but not everyone is REPENTANT. The key word here is 'repentant', not uncomfortable. It is God himself who leads the believer in the path of repentance; so it is impossible, by definition, for a believer to live indefinitely in constant known unrepented sin without the discipline of God.
So, in conclusion, every christian is carnal, and yet every christian is not carnal.
My two cents. I hope this helps in resolving the differences.
Dlight.
Double post
Wesley on Romans 7 - "This is a kind of a digression, to the beginning of the next chapter, wherein the apostle, in order to show in the most lively manner the weakness and inefficacy of the law, changes the person and speaks as of himself, concerning the misery of one under the law. This St. Paul frequently does, when he is not speaking of his own person, but only assuming another character. The character here assumed is that of a man, first ignorant of the law, then under it and sincerely, but ineffectually, striving to serve God. To have spoken this of himself, or any true believer, would have been foreign to the whole scope of his discourse; nay, utterly contrary thereto, as well as to what is expressly asserted, Rom_8:2."
Listening to Keith Daniel's message that's posted presently on this Article section and I can only say what he is saying in that message - "SOAK YOURSELF IN THE WORD!"
I don't see people that are filled with the WORD - I see people speaking their own ideas and it's sad - extremely sad.
Anyone can come with fine sounding words and most will follow them because they don't live, eat, breath, sleep in The Word.
If you knew ALL that the Apostles had written - you could never say that Romans 7 is Paul's state or ours.
What if someone HAS overcome sin in their lives and only deals with temptations from that point on? Don't you believe that is possible? Doesn't The Word say that it is possible? Doesn't The Word say that THAT is "the Normal Christian Life"?
Pitiful state. It is Pitiful. It is no wonder that this country mocks us and we make no impact and appear nothing of what the first Church was but most Americans see no difference between us and the others when we're out in the public. We should be turning our own areas upside down for Christ with a message of victory from sin and [spiritual] Life More Abundant.
These sermons that Gary posted is normal Biblical preaching - but the posts that follow - that promote any type of "carnality" in His Church is Anti-WORD and those that push "carnality" as "the normal Christian life" need to get alone and KNOW HIS WORD lest they be over-taken by the enemy of our souls when all that will be left inside of us is His Word in the amount that we've fully digested into our spirits and that day is coming and that is the only "life" - the life of His Word, that will get us through and that He will bless. Only what perfectly lines up with all that "is written".
I just wanted to say to those who have addressed me in this thread that I cannot respond. I am not a theologian...I am not eloquent. I am just a mother of 7 down here in the trenches trying to live a God-honoring life that will point others to Jesus. I so appreciate all the discourse on serious topics on this forum, but I am usually sorry when I enter in. I just didn't want anyone to think that I am ignoring them....
However you define carnality, I just don't think it is possible for a truly born-again person to live in continual sinful patterns for very long periods of time without even being convicted about them in the slightest. That is my simple take on the matter, and I found the message very helpful.
Dear Brethren,
If interpreted with very proper context, Romans 7 is an unregenerate man.
We must start from the key verse that ties together Romans 6, 7, and 8 is Romans 6:14, "Sin shall not have dominion over you, because you are not under law but under grace."
Romans 7 is law = The terms "law", "sin", and "death" are mentioned. Not once was the Holy Spirit or the term "life" was mentioned from v. 14 onwards. The only time the Spirit was mentioned in Romans 7 was verse 6, "BUT NOW WE ARE (PRESENT TENSE) RELEASED FROM THE LAW, having died (PAST TENSE) to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code." We find many biblical scholars say, "Paul's writing of Romans 7 is present tense, therefore we have the same struggle as he did as an apostle." Yes, he is writing in present-tense, and from the verse mentioned above, he is no longer under the law, but under the Spirit of grace. Verse 14 - 25 is not present tense, it is historical present-tense (talking about conversion from being under the power of sin and law to being in Christ under the law of the Spirit of life). It ought to be a dead giveaway when Paul says, "I am carnal, sold under the bondage to sin." Brethren, to be very blunt, if you are in bondage (slavery) to sin, you're lost. Romans 6:14 says that if you are under grace (mentioned in both Romans 5 and 6), sin has no power over you. Paul's writing of Romans 7 was showing how him being a Pharisee, thus being under the law, showed that the law made the power of sin stronger. Romans 6:14 confirms that being under the law means being under sin. In order to be delivered from sin, you must be delivered from the law. And this is why Romans 7:24-25 says, "Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin." AND THEN, it says, "There is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus, for the LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS HAS (PAST TENSE) SET YOU FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH." -Romans 8:1-2.
Romans 8 is grace = The terms "Spirit", "life", "Christ" are mentioned. Romans 8:7-9 says, "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not (PRESENT TENSE) in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him." Many times we end at verse 7-8 but we do not go to 9. We are no longer in the flesh, but in the Spirit.
What about Galatians 5:17, "For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do." Yes, it shows a conflict. But hold on, the next verse says, "But if you are LED BY THE SPIRIT, you are not under the law." Romans 8:14 says, For all who are LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD are SONS OF GOD..." meaning born-again Christians. After the works of the flesh and the fruit of the Spirit are mentioned, Galatians 5:24 says, "Those who belong to Christ Jesus HAVE CRUCIFIED (PAST TENSE) the flesh with its passions and desires."
It's amazing how we like to isolate passages and forgetting to read the rest.
Many times in the letters of the Apostle Paul, whenever he talks about the deeds of the flesh in any of the letters, he always describes it with "you ONCE WERE like this and that....."
For example, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous1 will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such WERE some of you. But you WERE washed, you WERE sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." - 1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Romans 6:17-18, "17 But thanks be to God (Just like Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord"), that you WHO WERE ONCE (PAST TENSE) slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, HAVING BEEN (PAST TENSE DUE TO BEING CONVERTED) set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness."
Romans 6:20-23, "20 For when YOU WERE (PAST TENSE) slaves of sin, YOU WERE (PAST TENSE) free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23 is the best description of Romans 7:14-25: The law aroused sin, thus bringing forth death. The free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus is Romans 8, where Spirit, life, and Christ are mentioned. It is bearing the fruit of eternal life ("For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life." -Galatians 6:8) rather then bearing fruit for death ("For while WE WERE living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to BEAR FRUIT FOR DEATH." -Romans 7:5)
"But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. 4 Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. 5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore ado not become partners with them; 8 FOR AT ONE TIME YOU WERE (PAST TENSE) darkness, but now you are light in the Lord." -Ephesians 5:3-7
"Put to death therefore what is earthly in you:2 sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming. In these YOU TOO ONCE WALKED (PAST TENSE), when YOU WERE (PAST TENSE) living in them. But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, SEEING THAT YOU HAVE (PRESENT TENSE) put off the old self with its practices and HAVE put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. 11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is call, and in all." -Colossians 3:5-11
A lot of people always start to interpret Chapter 7 with verse 14, thus coming to the conclusion that Paul was a Christian and writing in present tense. But we should read the verses before v. 14 to know the entire context and also to compare it with other Scriptures. Otherwise, we will see an inconsistency in the Bible regarding being in the flesh and in the Spirit.
In Christ,
- Michael Liao
murrcolr, do you have the e-sword program? If you do - click on Romans 7:9 and most of any commentaries that you've downloaded will activate - in answer to your question.
Brother Michael Liao has laid out a wonderful breakdown of Romans 6-8.
We were always taught to never isolate chpt 7 from chpts 6 & 8 or "live in" Romans 7, as some have chosen to do.
Thank you & The LORD Bless you, Michael Liao.
What if someone HAS overcome sin in their lives and only deals with temptations from that point on? Don't you believe that is possible? Doesn't The Word say that it is possible?
Nope, it actually says the opposite (1 John 1:8-10). Were it possible that should mean you are now sinless, and you have already proven that to be a fallacy.
Doesn't The Word say that THAT is "the Normal Christian Life"?
I have yet to see ANYONE prove it, so it certainly isn't normal.
OJ
Other than Peter messing up in front of Paul and being rebuked by Paul for it --- Show me where and when the apostles sinned after Pentecost. You have 3 verses - versus the entire New Testament that speaks against sin. Can you figure out why?
However you define carnality, I just don't think it is possible for a truly born-again person to live in continual sinful patterns for very long periods of time without even being convicted about them in the slightest.
It is not desired, but it is definitely possible, both Lot and Solomon are great examples. You and I are probably good modern day examples. Much of what we do is sin, some of it we just don't recognize or don't want to admit that it is sin.
Did you ever eat more than you needed to eat to sustain life? I have, that is gluttony. Would you happen to be just a little overweight because of repeated instances of gluttony? Have you been convicted of it as sin? Have you ever had your mind wander in prayer? I have, that is idolatry. Have you ever missed an opportunity of doing someone good when the opportunity was presented? I have, that is hating my neighbour. Have any of your prayers been of perfect motives? I am not even close to perfect so cannot have perfect motives, therefore ALL of my prayers have been from imperfect motives to some extent. Did you ever consider that all of your best prayers are loaded with sin in such a way and been convicted of it? You and I sin in these patterns for long periods of time because we are yet carnal and have a sin nature, and breaking even just ONE commandment makes us guilty of ALL. One sin of omission and we are as guilty as any murderer, or fornicator, or idolater.
Good thing though that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, because we sure qualify!
OJ
I only need one verse, it is even from your favorite book.
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Were any apostle to even imply that they have no sin they would have immediately proved that the truth was not in them, heaping even more sin upon themselves (this is why Paul owns himself as chief of sinners in present tense). Same with any preacher, including the young Wesley, the minute he implies that he has no sin, he deceives himself, that is why the Lord had to humble him later on in life.
If ANY say that they have no sin, they deceive ONLY themselves!!!!
OJ
Coward. Going after a woman but you can't debate with the men on this forum that know how to rightly divide The Word of Truth.
"Carnality" is a state, not a slip. Carnal because Paul could not give them the meat of The Word - that's where I see you and your soteriology. Carnal because they were favoring one teacher over another. Carnal because they were fighting over carnal things - NOT "contending for the faith" with apologetics, but Paul and John were. Paul could get quite rough in that as well. That is what he was called to - to stand up to the heresies and so was John, Jude and James and even Peter finally got into it as well. They all did - but the Corinthians were sinning in their envyings, divisions and strifes.
You promote sinning and proved that last year against us that wanted to "obey Him because we love Him". You came against us for that - so how dare you speak to a woman that's a grieving mother in that tone when she was merely expressing her heart?
We do not have a "sin nature" - we wage warfare against the flesh by walking in the Spirit.
Our "sin nature" was nailed to the cross 'with Christ'.
You have made up your own doctrines on salvation and sanctification and are attempting to keep others under the yoke of your own sin.
Whenever the "sin" topic comes up - you post O.T. men as your examples. Haven't you heard of Christ's death and resurrection and what exactly that has purchased for us?
You just typed a bunch of stuff and No Scripture - Again!
Not everyone needs to go to Bible college, that's for sure, but some should have, before they decided to teach others and thus downgrade His Work on The Cross.
And so Paul was "deceiving only himself" when he said that he was made "righteous"?
And the rest of 1John about those that sin, was John in a state of confusion?
Coward. Going after a woman but you can't debate with the men on this forum that know how to rightly divide The Word of Truth.
I ain't debating at all ma'am, just pointing out simple facts for the meek and lowly of heart. Debate is equal to sodomy, check Romans 1.
You just typed a bunch of stuff and No Scripture - Again!
1 John 1:8 was for you.
You deceive only yourself.
OJ
Our "sin nature" was nailed to the cross 'with Christ'.
Sorry to inform you ma'am but your sin nature is alive and well! Prospering mightily I might add, which is why I wonder why you cannot see it...
OJ
How can you point out anything to the "meek and lowly of heart" when you're not there?
Contending for the faith against enemies of the cross is a mandate.
If I had listened to you last year, and turned against the others that wanted to obey Him because they love Him - 'then' would the "sin nature" still be alive and well.
You exposed your true motives when you came against us that do want to obey Him because we love Him and I'll say that on every page that you post on.
Contending for the faith against enemies of the cross is a mandate
Yes, like Spurgeon, Tozer, Owen, Ironside, and all those 'other' enemies of the cross. It is pretty GOOD company!
OJ
Spurgeon, Tozer, Owen, Ironside, and all those others preached "Holiness as unto The LORD" - ie - "Obeying Him because we love Him and as proof of regeneration" ... which you came against last year.
That's the VAST difference between your messages and theirs.
JIG
You just want to obey him to save your own skin. As you said, you must do 'your part in your salvation'. That is doing it for yourself, not out of love for Him. Obedience is only done out of love when you have NOTHING to gain, otherwise it is work for wages.
OJ
Holiness has its place, but your obeying is your "proof", again work for wages. No love there.
OJ
You should listen to Ten Shekles and a Shirt. There are actually people out there, and I was one of them that posted about telling the LORD in 1994 that even if He sent us to Hell - we would follow Him. Madame Guyan was another that said that. If we follow Him with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength yet still go to Hell - HE IS JUST!
"Taking EVERY thought captive to the obedience of Christ" merely because He is Worthy.
Even your judgment about people that love Him is off.
did you say spurgen owen ironside are all enemys of the cross
joe your surly showing everyone that you dont have the holy spirit ,
i think greg and the moderators should deal with this,and revoke your membership ,,
theres no edafication in anything you say ,,just darkness and division
moderators please lock this thread ,and concider at the least a suspenion of mebership
No, Gary Spurgeon, Ironside, Owen are all men that I quoted in another thread that JIG opposed. She wants to do battle against what she considers all enemies of the cross. These were the men she opposed.
OJ
PS
But if any moderator wants me to leave all they need to do is ask, and I leave the same way I came, because I was asked.
He didn't mean it that way, Brother Gary. He was replying to what I had said about him being an enemy of the cross for coming against us last year, because we posted that we were desiring to obey Christ because we love Him.
Good topic, "carnality". I put the page with all of Albert N. Martin's sermons in my favorites and saw one from this month. He retired from the Baptist Church in Montvale, NJ in 2008 and I was amazed at how long he pastored there. I lived very close to Montvale from birth until 1973 and wished I had known him then. Thank you.
We posted at the same time.
I don't oppose them. I grew up in the faith on them. The classics were all that we read back in the 70's - with the exception of Ravenhill, Wilkerson and Keith Green.
It's been your twisting of what they taught that I oppose. They preached Holiness.
JIG
You are so caught up in doing your part (work for wages) that you have done it at the expense of faith. My job (and there is no pay) is to take you back to where you turned off the road and turn you back onto the right road. That can only be done when you view yourself as those men you used to trust, tell you. And that can only be done when you examine every righteousness you think you have in light of scripture. There is no such thing as a relative righteousness, perfection is the only righteousness available and is only available in Christ through faith, which faith is COUNTED for righteousness.
A fine house built on sand still crumbles, but even a tent on a rock is secure.
OJ
from tozer
The holy man is not one who cannot sin. A holy man is one who will not sin.
The true Christian ideal is not to be happy but to be holy.
The whole purpose of God in redemption is to make us holy and to restore us to the image of God. To accomplish this He disengages us from earthly ambitions and draws us away from the cheap and unworthy prizes that worldly men set their hearts upon.
The true Christian ideal is not to be happy but to be holy.
No man should desire to be happy who is not at the same time holy. He should spend his efforts in seeking to know and do the will of God, leaving to Christ the matter of how happy he shall be.
Go to God and have an understanding. Tell Him that it is your desire to be holy at any cost and then ask Him never to give you more happiness than holiness. When your holiness becomes tarnished, let your joy become dim. And ask Him to make you holy whether you are happy or not. Be assured that in the end you will be as happy as you are holy; but for the time being let your whole ambition be to serve God and be Christlike.
. . . although God wants His people to be holy as He is holy, He does not deal with us according to the degree of our holiness but according to the abundance of His mercy. Honesty requires us to admit this.
You cannot study the Bible diligently and earnestly without being struck by an obvious fact—the whole matter of personal holiness is highly important to God!
I cannot think of even one lonely passage in the New Testament which speaks of Christ’s revelation, manifestation, appearing or coming that is not directly linked with moral conduct, faith and spiritual holiness
''
First you say that I believe in obedience because I fear "Hell" and I had to post what I had posted before to tell you otherwise and now you're trying to justify all of your nasty posts to me by coming up with this bit about being concerned for me being on the Rock. Oy vey!
You told me last month that the antiChrist system will love me and since last year you've said even worse and now you're going to try to clean all of that up with posting that you're concerned for my well-being.
Have you ever read T.A. Sparks message titled "Truth In The Inward Parts" ?
I'll leave you again with the same passages that I've left you, personally, several times now.
Good night.
With my prayers and Love in Christ for you.
Phil 3:7-15
John Owen warns us that
We must be exercising [mortification] every day, and in every duty. Sin will not die, unless it be constantly weakened. Spare it, and it will heal its wounds, and recover its strength. We must continually watch against the operations of this principle of sin: in our duties, in our calling, in conversation, in retirement, in our straits, in our enjoyments, and in all that we do. If we are negligent on any occasion, we shall suffer by it; every mistake, every neglect is perilous.
good night sister
C. H. Spurgeon had much to say about holiness...here are a few his quotes...
Though you have struggled in vain against your evil habits, though you have wrestled with them sternly, and resolved, and re-resolved, only to be defeated by your giant sins and your terrible passions, there is One who can conquer all your sins for you. There is One who is stronger than Hercules, who can strangle the hydra of your lust, kill the lion of your passions, and cleanse the Augean stable of your evil nature by turning the great rivers of blood and water of his atoning sacrifice right through your soul. He can make and keep you pure within. Oh, look to him!
c.h spurgen
THESE things cannot be parted—abiding in obedience and abiding in the love of Jesus. A life under the rule of Christ can alone prove that we are the objects of our Lord’s delight. We must keep our Lord’s command if we would bask in His love. If we live in sin, we cannot live in the love of Christ. Without the holiness which pleases God, we cannot please Jesus. He who cares nothing for holiness knows nothing of the love of Jesus. Conscious enjoyment of our Lord’s love is a delicate thing. It is far more sensitive to sin and holiness than mercury is to cold and heat. When we are tender of heart and careful in thought, lip, and life to honor our Lord Jesus, then we receive tokens of His love without number. If we desire to perpetuate such bliss, we must perpetuate holiness. The Lord Jesus will not hide His face from us unless we hide our face from Him. Sin makes the cloud which darkens our Sun: if we will be watchfully obedient and completely consecrated, we may walk in the light, as God is in the light, and have as sure an abiding in the love of Jesus as Jesus has in the love of the Father. Here is a sweet promise with a solemn “if.” Lord, let me have this “if” in my hand; for as a key it opens this casket. Faith's Checkbook
Excellent post of Tozer. I love that man. I was just looking again at his book, "I Talk Back to the devil" [1972] and not sure why they titled it that, because there's only one chpt by that same title and topic. I just randomly opened it to the chpt titled "You can't be a baby all your life!" - must be I should go read it now. :)
GOD Bless you & yours Mightily, Brother Gary. Thank you again!
{eta} Wonderful - I just saw all of the others that you've posted.
Wonderful exhortations and encouragements for us all.
Thank you!
The Holiness of common Christianity is this: that the Holy Spirit gives the people faith in Christ and sanctifies them thereby; that is, makes a new heart, soul, body, work, and being and writes the law of God, not on tables of stone, but in fleshly hearts. He sanctifies them, not only by the forgiveness of sin, but also by the laying aside, expelling and destroying of sin. --Martin Luther
your verry welcome , sister,,,,oohhh may he pour out his spirit on us a fresh in revivel please lord
I believe He is!
ask him for more for me ,,i hope i dont sound greedy
The nature of Christ's salvation is woefully misrepresented by the present-day evangelist. He announces a Savior from hell rather than a Savior from sin. And that is why so many are fatally deceived, for there are multitudes who wish to escape the Lake of fire who have no desire to be delivered from their carnality and worldliness. - A. W. Pink
Prayer will make a man cease from sin, or sin will entice a man to cease from prayer. - John Bunyan
You may as well quit reading and hearing the Word of God, and give it to the devil,
if you do not desire to live according to it."
Martin Luther
Holiness consisteth not in a cowl or in a garment of gray. When God purifies the heart by faith, the market is sacred as well as the sanctuary; neither remaineth there any work or place which is profane. martin luther
brothergary
Thank you for giving the links for the sermons in the OP which I have just listened to.
I agree with the preacher - that the `carnal Christian doctrine` as he describes it, is unscriptural and heretical.
It is unfortunately, the logical result of Keswick doctrine and thereby proves its error. Keswick says that a man can be `saved` and not yet sanctified and thereby making holiness an option, an option granted, not to be recommended, but nevertheless, optional albeit, a losing of `rewards`.
As the preacher says, scripture does not teach this. It says that one is only saved if free from sin and one will go to hell otherwise.
I find that both sides ie Keswick doctrine and Reformed doctrine are seeing some truths but are blindsided on other things and that there are just too many loopholes in their respective understanding on this issue.
First of all, from the Reformed perspective, it is inconceivable that Paul took the gospel to Corinth. It is making the assumption that not one Corinthian Jew travelled to Jerusalem for Pentecost, and was saved, especially, in that year in which all of the hooha was occuring due to Jesus of Nazareth and due to the size of the city of Corinth. The gospel had already spread far and wide due to the conversions of Jews who had spent Pentecost there. Pauls job was to visit these communites which developed and speak to their gatherings. Besides, a busy port like Corinth, if no Jews had been present in Jerusalem, people would very quickly hear of what had happened there and knowing human inquisitiveness, some would go themselves to investigate and return with the gospel. And this is besides evangelised sea-faring gentiles.
The second assumption is that the communities would have amongst them, unsaved people. No-one but true believers would risk their lives and livelihoods by empty professions in those days like the days which are fast approaching us. It was not socially acceptable to be born again in those times.
No, Paul and others were ministering to the churches which had formed to show them a `much better way` for those who have come short of entering His rest Heb 4:1, the `rest which remaineth to the people of God` Heb 4:9 and to those whom he desired to `impart unto you some spiritual gift to the end ye may be established` Romans 1:11. His role was to bring them to perfection or to the fullness of the stature of Christ.
You see there is another class of people that the preacher ignores That is the ones who long for holiness but find themselves unable to gain the victory over certain sins and one of the most common ones concern anger and irritability towards loved ones which is not one falling into a sin but a pattern of a sinful life.
To these the preacher will say they have never been saved because he automatically sticks them into the category which does not hate its sins. But they do and they try and try and are defeated at every turn. Unforunately they do not fit into the Reformed interpretation of things so are left despairing and without hope.
It was to these struggling ones who were given the good news, that it is by faith and not works by which we are made holy.
However, those in the church who have silenced the work of the HS and who are content to abide in their sins saying they are covered in the Blood, who are in the logical conclusion of Reformed doctrine, are the ones Reformed Pastors have to beat up in the process of excusing themselves for a theological system which only sounds feasible in theory and does not work in practise, and to discourage them and hopefully get them out of their hair.
The trouble is that the struggling ones get beaten up too. I met many Reformed Pastors like this who would only quote scripture at me because they did not kmow the true way of holiness which is to lose ones life.
On the Keswick side they are failing to see that the `saints` at Corinth were not those who had come into the fullness of the blessing. They were still sinning and Keswick allows them to keep their sin seeing as the sin nature in their reckoning is merely subdued.
It is only true holiness doctrine where there is balance and consistency.
joe your surly showing everyone that you dont have the holy spirit ,I think greg and the moderators should deal with this,and revoke your membership ,,
It is not right to call for another member's dismissal just because you dis-agree with their point of view. Quite frankly, it doesn't speak well of you at all. The moderators are not idiots, I'm confident they know what they're doing.
Consider an apology to Joe and ask for forgiveness. Now that's love.
That was merely a misunderstanding, Ephah. Brother Gary is a good Brother. He surely doesn't think anyone's an idiot and there isn't any need for an apology to Joe - not if you believe in keeping His Commandments - ie. obeying Him because you love Him.
Did you listen to the two sermons in the first post? Would like your opinion on them.
Take Care!
In all honesty,
I'd probably say something that may cause controversy, but Keswick's "Deeper/Victorious Life" is the Reformed Doctrine of Salvation. Here's why:
The phrase Let Go (Surrender) and Let God (Faith/Believe) is just another way of saying Repent (Let Go of Your Sin, Your Self) and Believe (Trust in Christ for Salvation, Victory/Looking unto Jesus).
Here's the problem, Keswick's say that in order to enter this "victorious life", you have to surrender your life to the Lordship of Jesus, which you should have already done at salvation. It makes Jesus Savior first and being Lord is secondary or optional. Tozer said that if that were the case, people have a half-salvation which is no salvation at all. Notice how in the Bible, Jesus is always mentioned as "Lord (first) and Savior." It never says in the Bible that Jesus is "Savior and Lord."
So this is where I disagree with the preacher Zac Poonen, although I do find his messages very powerful and encouraging. In his sermon about Romans 6, he said that he was saved, born-again, and forgiven of his sins, but sin was master over him. If you are forgiven of your sins, you are ALSO delivered from the power of sin! That would make the end of Romans 5 to the continuation of Romans 6 to be consistent. "Where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more." And we must continue from there, "What shall we say then? mAre we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?" A lot of the times, Keswick doctrine starts with Romans 6 first, instead of going before that into Romans 5, talking about salvation. Romans 6 and 8 is the evidence of salvation of Romans 5. Romans 7 shows that in order to be delivered from the power of sin, you must be delivered from law to grace.
If you have salvation, you should also have victory as well. Otherwise, there is an inconsistency.
In Christ,
- Michael Liao
That's good, Michael. Thanks for bringing that out. It follows that if you have the Life of Christ dwelling in you and you are abiding in Christ that you then should be walking after the Spirit. If you are not walking after the Spirit then you are not abiding in Christ no matter how much you remind yourself about some decision you made 20 years, prior. If you are not abiding in Christ then you will have no victory and overcome nothing. Rather, you will be overcome. Like I said in the nice thread that got locked down
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=44241&forum=35,
Salvation is not a commodity that you own, it is a Person that you abide in. How does sin have mastery over you if you died with Christ and were raised to abide in Him?
Lord and Savior...
Pilgrim
As we learn to walk in the blessings and peace of God, we become more and more sensitive about avoiding sin. This is the discipline that leads us to purify our hearts and love others as Jesus loved us. "If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons." Heb 12:7-8
False sons refuse to give up their love of the flesh nature of Satan. They devise ways to enter heaven without denying their flesh. They justify themselves with their form of godliness because they still love the world and the flesh.
False sons do not know about the peace of God or the fear of God. They walk in a false security and don't know they have to purify their hearts. They continually break God's law and the powers of darkness bring them further and further into bondage until they are destroyed. All because they did not choose the nature of God (abiding in Christ) but chose rather the nature of Satan.
Psa 107:10 Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron;
Psa 107:11 Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High:
Psa 107:17 Fools because of their transgression, and because of their iniquities, are afflicted.
Pilgrim
im not sure that you gyes are saying anyting different from what martin was saying and what holy men are saying in refomed like paul washer ect
even after batisim of spirit peter was still able to sin and he show that he could fall in teaching a fasle gosple for a wile ,,,,,,,we grow in the practical aspect of santification as we mature , but in the beggining of aur new birth we are babes in christ ,the bible talks about the mature having there scence exercised to no good from evil ,impling that babes do not fuly have there scence developed ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,must go to work now blessings
I was going to bring that up about Peter, gary.
He did come to the light when confronted rather than be obstinate which would have proved he was a false son.
I don't think we are talking about babes in Christ. They would be excluded from this discussion, I would think.
If we see a 25 year old today who has not grown emotionally and takes personal responsibility seriously (work, provide for himself or family), we would not think of him as a baby. A baby is just learning to walk. An "adult" or "young man" should know how to walk.
Pilgrim
Quote: In his sermon about Romans 6, he said that he was saved, born-again, and forgiven of his sins, but sin was master over him. If you are forgiven of your sins, you are ALSO delivered from the power of sin!
Are you sure?
We must not fail to differentiate between positional and practical truth.
In the eyes of God, our old man was crucified with Christ; it's dead and buried forevermore, positionally. Practically speaking, however, he is alive and well within our members.
Think of it like this, you have given a letter saying that you are the benefactor of a vast inheritance. The inheritance is yours because you have the letter confirming it but until the money is in the bank it’s not yours practically.
In order to be delivered from the power over sin in our lives we must “reckon” the old man dead by faith until it is real to us practically.
It is only the Spirit of God that can show you the depths of sin that remain in the Christian after conversion.
Edited for spelling
Murrcolr,
You are right. I call it "experiential truth". God wants us to experience righteousness and holiness as a real practical thing in our lives.
But, yes, one must learn to walk and to fight and to grow up from being babies. To practically/experientially come into our Sonship and mature.
Pilgrim
hi pligrim ,,i was more refuring to poonans testamony about whn he said sin had mastery over him ,,,,he more then likely was not a matured saint
i think when the bible exorts us to offer our bodys as living sacrafices and be holy for i am holy
the implications of that would be that there were christans that where not givern over to the holy spirit
and who were not walking uprighly as they could and would
so i dont believe ,that the bible teaches a sinless santfication in a practical scence ,and the time of justafication ,,,,,
Quote: i think when the bible exorts us to offer our bodys as living sacrafices and be holy for i am holy the implications of that would be that there were christans that where not givern over to the holy spirit and who were not walking uprighly as they could and would
That’s excactly what Paul writes after telling us to “reckon” that old man is dead
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Quote: God wants us to experience righteousness and holiness as a real practical thing in our lives.
Amen and Amen
Quote: So i dont believe ,that the bible teaches a sinless santfication in a practical scence ,and the time of justification.
The nature we inherit from Adam is as useless as a lead ballon when it comes to being led by the Holy Spirit. It is completely opposed to the Spirit of God.
What I believe is that God wants us to experience righteousness and holiness as a real practical thing in our lives he commands us “Be Ye Holy”...
Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
We have a promise being left to us “to enter his rest”
How do you enter Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world
We enter by faith because the works were finished from the foundation of the world…
Oh help me Father, help me to have faith to believe so that I may “enter his rest” Oh Father help me to cease from my works, help me to believe the gospel of God news, free me from the bondage of indwelling sin, Lord God make me as holy as a pardoned sinner can be.
Edit for spelling
JIG
Now that the kumbaya's have settled down, perhaps it will be better if the scriptures were personalized a bit.
"For I bear her record that she has a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For she being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish her own righteousness, has not submitted herself unto the righteousness of God. Wherefore? Because she sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For she stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
What shall we say then? That some which were deemed carnal, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But JIG, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness."
Both Lot and Solomon were carnal, and both will be in heaven!
OJ
I would consider this to be one of the most ungodly post I have read on here!
Even if you think you are correct in your judgment (which I don't think you are), it would still be absolutely wrong to publically write what you have.
I don't know if you know JIG personally (I don't), but who gave you oh man the position to pass this sort of judgement! You also seem to know who will and will not be in heaven! Such pride!
JIG, I would avise you don't respond to this type of post, as it it just gives fuel to this ungodly fire.
I will lock this thread since it violates the forum rules and has run its course, no beliver is being built up by the latter part of this thread.
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