I've only been on this forum a short time. In that time I have had some great conversations about different topics. However, at times I have made comments about different doctrines that I perceive to be heretical, and also warned about several nationally (and some world-wide) "Church leaders". Popular Christian "leaders".Each time I have done this there is always someone who pops in, or IM's me and accuses me of being judgemental, unloving, unChristian, and one even suggested that I am not saved... not noticing that they are doing the very thing they are condemning me for.So... come, lets reason together concerning whether a Christian should judge things, and more specifically what the BIBLE has to say about it... is it "unloving" to judge doctrine and discipline sin?Since it is God Himself, the very God of love, who has commanded the believer to judge doctrine and to exercise discernment between truth and error and to separate from false teaching and to discipline sin, it could not possibly be contrary to love to do these things!The loving God commands believers to expose error. There is only one right doctrine, and that is the doctrine of the apostles as we have it in the New Testament Scriptures, and every doctrine that is contrary to that is false and is to be exposed. The Lord's apostles did this repeatedly. The loving apostle Paul, for example, in his epistles to the preacher Timothy, warned about false teachers and compromises BY NAME 10 different times (1 Tim. 1:20; 2 Tim. 1:15; 2:17; 3:8; 4:12, 14). He said:"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some" (2 Tim. 2:15-18).Notice how the loving apostle Paul instructed Timothy, another loving and faithful preacher of that day. He told him to study the Word of God that he might know sound doctrine, but he did not stop there. Timothy was not merely to know the truth for himself and be content with that; he was not merely to be "positive" for the truth; he was to go beyond that to expose and warn about those who taught false things. To illustrate how Timothy was to deal with error, the loving Paul used the specific example of two preachers of his day, Hymenaeus and Philetus. They had erred from the truth in spiritualizing a prophetic event and Paul said they were dangerous. He used very strong language to condemn them.We must understand that these two men were professing Christians of that day, and yet Paul did not hesitate to expose and warn of them. Can you imagine how Hymenaeus and Philetus felt about Paul's warning? Surely they were angry with him for saying that their doctrine was not sound. "Who does that Paul think he is, anyway!" And think of how their followers must have felt toward Paul. Doubtless they attacked Paul as unloving and mean-spirited and as puffed up in his own sense of importance. Doubtless, Hymenaeus and Philetus and their followers treated the Pauls and Timothys and Tituses of that day precisely as the ecumenists today treat Christian who is striving against error.What if Timothy himself had replied to Paul: "Paul, I don't think I will follow that pattern. It doesn't seem to be very loving to run around exposing other believers as false. You are too harsh, Paul. You need to live and let live. Are we not all the body of Christ? Don't you love Hymenaeus and Philetus? Don't they love Jesus, too? Why are you so mean-spirited and narrow-minded? Leave judgment to the Lord. Your business is simply to love, and love doesn't judge"? Would Timothy have thereby been accepted in his ministry? Would God have rewarded him for taking such a position?In fact, Paul was not being unloving when he exposed Hymenaeus and Philetus as false teachers. He was being very loving. In so doing, Paul revealed his love for Jesus, who is the Truth; and he revealed his love for the church, which is the pillar and ground of the truth; and he revealed his love for the Lord's sheep, because he was willing to protect them from dangerous wolves. Furthermore, he thereby revealed his love for Hymenaeus and Philetus themselves, because if we love someone we will speak plainly about things that will destroy them, and probably nothing is more destructive than false teaching.True Christian love exposes error and warns of its danger.LOVE PREACHES HOLY LIVING AND DISCIPLINES SINLove also demands holy living and disciplines sin. In almost every epistle to the churches, we see that the apostles demanded strict holy living and reproved those who were sinning. When the loving apostle Paul wrote to the preacher Titus to instruct him in how to conduct his ministry, he said:"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee" (Titus 2:11-15).Notice what Titus, in Christian love, was instructed to do. He was told that the true grace of God saves men freely through faith in the sacrifice of Christ (Eph. 2:8-9), but that same grace also teaches believers to live godly, separated lives. True grace does not teach believers that they can live as they please. That is not grace but license. It is a misuse of grace. It is the old error of antinomianism, which taught that believers, because they are forgiven, are free to live pretty much howsoever they will. Paul rebuked that wicked error and taught Titus that he was to preach strict holy living. He was to SPEAK, AND EXHORT, AND REBUKE WITH ALL AUTHORITY."What if Titus had said to Paul, "Paul, I don't want to be so harsh-sounding in my preaching. I don't think it is loving to be so judgmental about how the Lord's people live. I think I will tone down the preaching so it sounds more loving"? Would Titus have thereby been accepted in his ministry? Would God have rewarded him for taking such a position?Furthermore, when believers ignore this strong preaching on holy living and they openly sin, they are to be disciplined. The church at Corinth was instructed in this fashion. There was a believer in Corinth who was living in fornication; and instead of judging him the church was "puffed up." This carnal church had the philosophy of tolerance toward sin and error, and they were proud of their spirit of non-judgmentalism! The loving apostle Paul twice rebuked them for this great error (1 Cor. 5:1-6; 2 Cor. 11:1-4). He instructed them to repent of their broadmindedness and to judge sin and to judge error.What if the church at Corinth had replied to Paul, "We don't accept what you are saying. Who are we to judge others? Are we not sinners ourselves? Do we not have our own problems to take care of? We say that judgment should be left up to God, and for ourselves we will just love and be loved." Would the church at Corinth have thereby been accepted? Would God have rewarded them for such a thing?Of course not. True Christian love preaches holy living and it rebukes and disciplines sin. It is not the love of God that causes professing saints to overlook sin and error; it is carnality and a spirit of disobedience to God's Word.To preach strongly against sin is to love people, because sin defiles and destroys. To rebuke sin is to love the church of God, because sin defiles His church. Paul warned the church at Corinth that they must deal with sin because, "a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump" (1 Cor. 5:6). To preach boldly and plainly against sin is also to love God, because sin is against the holy God and because God has commanded us to rebuke it.True Christian love preaches strict holy living and disciplines sin.LOVE CONTENDS FOR THE FAITHFurthermore, it is a very loving thing to contend for the faith. The loving Jude demanded this:"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort YOU THAT YE SHOULD EARNESTLY CONTEND FOR THE FAITH WHICH WAS ONCE DELIVERED UNTO THE SAINTS" (Jude 3).Notice how this responsibility is described. The loving Holy Spirit uses the Greek word epagonizomai. It is a very strong word and is well translated in our Authorized Version by the English words "earnestly contend." It means to strive for, to fight for, to defend against, but also to do that in a vigorous, earnest manner.And this is not a responsibility that is given only to preachers. Jude is addressing believers in general. It is every Christian's duty to engage in this battle. And notice more carefully exactly what we are to fight for -- "the faith once delivered to the saints." This tells us that the Christian faith was completed in the days of the apostles. It was not left for some Catholic church council hundreds of years later to decide what the faith was. The Christian faith was delivered to the apostles by the Holy Spirit, and it was completed in their day. That "faith once delivered" is the one absolute and complete standard by which doctrine and practice is to be judged. From that day until the Lord returns, the job of every true believer is to fight to defend that one true faith against every false doctrine. Timothy was instructed not to allow "ANY other doctrine" (1 Timothy 1:3). That is a very, very narrow view of doctrinal purity. If a preacher seeks to obey Paul's command in 1 Timothy 1:3 and Jude 3, he will not be able to hold hands with those who have a different doctrine. How could he? His task is to hold the one true faith and to earnestly contend against every false thing! It is absolutely impossible to be ecumenical in any sense while seeking to obey 1 Timothy 1:3 and Jude 3 and other such obligations of the Scriptures.And in fact, it is a very loving thing to earnestly contend for the faith once delivered to the saints, because the truth sets men free, while error corrupts and destroys. Thus, those who earnestly contend for the faith love men and want to see them walk in the truth; and they love God and want to be faithful to His Word; and they love the Lord's church and want to see it shine in its purity; and they love the Holy Spirit, who is "the Spirit of TRUTH"; and they love the truth itself. The faithful soldier loves those for whom and that for which he fights.True Christian love earnestly contends for the faith.LOVE SEPARATES FROM FALSE AND SINFUL THINGSFinally, true Christian love not only preaches holy living and rebukes and disciplines sin and exposes error and earnestly contends for the faith, but true Christian love goes even further and separates from false and sinful things.The loving Paul taught the believers at Ephesus that it was not enough for them to live pure moral lives for themselves; they were to separate from and even rebuke sinful things."And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, BUT RATHER REPROVE THEM" (Ephesians 5:11).Notice the command that the loving Holy Spirit gives through the loving preacher Paul. Believers are not to have fellowship with evil things, and not only that, but they are to reprove evil things. This is what has gotten the saints into trouble through the ages. Ordinarily, the world doesn't mind if a Christian lives a holy life to himself and his family, as long as he "minds his own business" and doesn't rebuke others for how they live. But as soon as the Christian starts telling other people how they are to live and rebuking sin in them, he finds himself in "hot water." John the Baptist is an example. He did not preach against sin merely in generalities. He was very plain. And when he rebuked Herod for taking his brother's wife contrary to the law of God, he made an implacable enemy of Herod's new wife and her animosity toward him resulted in his death (Matt. 14:1-12).Furthermore, Christians are not only to separate from and rebuke sinful things but also to separate from false doctrine and those who teach it. The following is only one of many commandments to this end. Notice what the loving apostle Paul taught the believers at Rome:"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them" (Romans 16:17).There are two obligations here. First, the loving brethren are to mark those who teach false things, which means they are to plainly identify them as to who they are; and secondly, they are to avoid those who teach false things. "Avoid" is a term referring to separation.And how are we to know what is false? Ecumenists today argue that it is not reasonable to think that a believer can know the truth in such a fashion that he can say that others are wrong. That is not what the Bible teaches, though. The standard for truth is the teaching of the apostles, and that which is contrary to their teaching is false. It is that simple. Where had the believers at Rome learned their doctrine? From the Apostle Paul. Thus, he is instructing them that if they find doctrine that is different from that which he had taught them, they were to reject it and avoid it. The child of God is commanded to study the Word of God and to rightly divide it (2 Tim. 2:15) and then to judge everything by that standard. If is it not possible to know the rightly divide the Scriptures, why does God command us to do it?And, in fact, it is a very loving thing to mark and avoid false teachers. To do so is to love those who are in danger of being deceived by the false teachers. To pretend that the false teachers are not teaching error and to associate with them as if nothing were wrong is an unloving act toward those who will be deceived by their error. To separate from those who are teaching error is also an act of love toward the sound churches, because in marking and avoiding those who err, we protect the churches from their corrupting ministries.True Christian love separates from false and sinful things.CONCLUSIONIn conclusion, judging and separating from sin and error is not contrary to Christian love. True Christian love is not a mushy tolerance of things that are wrong. Such an idea is a false definition of Christian love.The loving apostle John taught us the true definition of love:"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous" (1 John 5:3).
We are commanded to judge!
Hi Krispy,You must have spent hours on this post. I agree overall. The thing that has to be defined here is what are the errors and sins that warrant strong attention? To give you an idea what I mean, growing up in an Oberlin Theology type setting I have heard it preached that if you wrecked your car at 56 miles per hour in a 55 zone you may be in danger of hell-fire because you were breaking man's laws. Lots of outward things that suggested 'holiness.' Yet, when I went to the Institute I took 5 semesters of the 613 Laws of the Old Testament (that had to be grace!). Their view of holiness was way wildly different than ours in the Holiness circles. We thought when boys swam in jeans at the summer camp it was holiness, but none of that was in the 613 laws. We thought that when a sister poured a cup of hot water and added sugar and creamer it was holiness because she didn't drink coffee. And if your smoking, your going to have to go to hell to get a light! I know I am sounding sarcastic, but this, unfortunitely is reality. People lives in fear for the most trivial of matters. Many just backslid all together. Of a whole generation of preachers in one certain circle- all backslid but one and when you asked them why they said, "I just couldn't live it." So what sins are we talking about when we say discipline? Damnable sins such as adultery, fornication, idolatry, etc.And as for doctrine we can take a similar line. What do we divide over? Certainly we can agree on the essentials and have fellowship. But what about when someone wants to split over pretrib or post trib? See what I mean? God Bless,-Robert
Robert...Specifically I was addressing the qualification of leadership in the church. It's funny you should mention speeding because one person on here told me I couldnt judge whether a nationally know "leader" in the church could still be in leadership because of sexual sin... because after all, I've probably broken the speed limit at some point.I have Christian friends who struggle with sin... and I struggle with my own sin nature too. We all do. But when it comes to Church leadership, Paul is very precise as to what qualifies (or disqualifies) someone... and that is what this post was concerned with.If someone in our private lives is sinning habitually, not repentent, and claims to be a Christian... then we can judge for ourselves where they stand... but not in a way that we feel we can condemn them, but rather to bring correction to their life and turn them in the right direction.As far as doctrine, I dont think there is a line that can be drawn clearly. There are some fuzzy areas in the Bible, but I believe it's not all that hard to recognize a false teaching IF we are true students of the Bible. I'm not going to seperate from someone over "Did Adam have a belly button" type of arguments. However, if someone teaches that the Holy Spirit can make a person fall to the floor and bark like a dog (violating one the fruits of the Spirit - self control), then I will seperate from that teacher. It's not in scripture, therfore by definition, it's unscriptural (God's not giving new revelation today) and misrepresents what and who teh Holy Spirit is. It's misrepresents God's character.I think in matters of seperation each individual has to seek God about it. One needs to ask themself "how close to the edge of the cliff do I want to go?"Krispy
Something to think about:"Did I ever tell you my little parable of the first two denominations? Two fellows were sitting on a park bench feeding the pigeons. One looks around and then declares with great expressiveness, “What a beautiful day it is and how wonderful it is to be able to see it!” The other man responded, “Oh, sir, I most heartily agree. You know, I used to be blind.” The other man exclaimed, “You don’t mean it! I used to be blind, too.” He went on, “I will never forget the day Jesus healed me.”The other man said, “What? Jesus healed you? Why that is wonderful because Jesus healed me, too.” They rejoiced together in their mutual blessings. The first man said, “Yeah, I will never forget that day He spit upon the ground and made mud. He put the mud on my eyes and told me to go wash at the pool. I washed and immediately I could see clearly.”Hearing this with great suspicion, the other man said, “Mud? What mud? When Jesus healed me He just touched my eyes and I could see, but men appeared to me like walking trees. Then Jesus touched me again and suddenly I could see clearly, but there was no mud. I don’t know what you are talking about. Are you sure you can even see at all? You must not know the Jesus I know. How could you see after such a disgusting experience? I don’t believe you know what you are talking about.”With that, both men moved to the opposite ends of the bench and never spoke to each other again. That was the beginning of denominationalism: The Mudites and the Anti-Mudites." :-) I am not all for "unity" at any cost, but getting to know many hungry believers who are honestly searching to become more Christlike- I have come across people who have had many different experiences. The Lord has taught them in different ways. I think it is best to focus on Christ and becoming like Him- then to focus on the many other things "about" Christianity.If we focus on Christ and becoming less of ourselves and more of Him, things will automatically fall into place. Preach Christ and him crucified and things will come as they should. Everything else that is "about' christianity will not mean anything until the body is cross- centered and Christ -centered first.We can have the church all structured just so but if the people and the leadership are not dying to self and becoming Christlike at all expenses- then the rest will not matter. The cup has to be clean on the inside. What does it matter how it looks on the oustside until the inside is washed clean. then the outside will become clean.Just my 2 cents. :)In Him, Chanin
We all have to make numerous judgments every day, but when it comes to judging others it would be wise for us to consider the following words penned by a godly woman, Amy Charmichael;If I belittle those whom I am called to serve, talk of their weak points in contrast perhaps with what I think of as my strong points; if I adopt a superior attitude, forgetting "Who made thee to differ? And what hast thou that thou hast not received?" then I know nothing of Calvary love.If I have not compassion on my fellow-servant even as my Lord had pity on me, then I know nothing of Calvary love.If I can easily discuss the shortcomings and the sins of any; if I can speak in a casual way even of a child's misdoings, then I know nothing of Calvary love.In Christ,Ron
I am not all for "unity" at any cost, but getting to now many hungry believers who are honestly searching to become more Christlike- I have come across people who have had many different experiences. The Lord has taught them in different ways. I think it is best to focus on Christ and becoming like Him- then to focus on the many other things "about" Christianity.While I agree with your underlying message here... I also know that the Bible commands us to discern, weigh and contend for truth. We cant dismiss the Bible and focus on experiences.
If I belittle those whom I am called to serve, talk of their weak points in contrast perhaps with what I think of as my strong points; if I adopt a superior attitude, forgetting "Who made thee to differ? And what hast thou that thou hast not received?" then I know nothing of Calvary love.I'm not talking about belittling or feeling superior. If we have that attitude then we are sinning by judging. We're not weighing and discerning for the right spiritual reasons.Let's also remember that the words of Amy C., or any other person, do not supercede what scripture teaches. Amy was not saying we shouldnt obey scripture in this manner... but that we should have the mind of Christ about it. Krispy
I am sorry, I did not mean "experiences" as you might think (charasmatic experiences) I am talking more about God's dealings with people.here is an excellent bit from Chip brogden that kinds of makes my point:"At some point we have to stop dissecting the nutritional value of the food before us, analyzing the menu, studying it under a microscope, and exchanging recipes. The Body needs tangible meat, bread, water, milk and honey. Strive towards actually feeding people instead of just talking about the food and drink. People are starving. GIVE them the Life first, then analyze it all you wish. I used to murmur and complain that "no one" wanted to hear my message. That may be true if we are bringing a message other than Christ. But if we speak Christ then everyone wants to hear it, whether they realize it or not. People are dying for the Word of Life which you carry. It is true that everyone will not listen, but anyone might, and somebody will." In His love, chanin
Hi Krispy, and I struggle with my own sin nature tooWhat is a sin nature?God Bless,-Robert
What is a sin nature? You're not going to nit-pick, are you? :-P I'll make it more spiritual for ya... like everyone else, I struggle with my flesh.(I suspect you knew what I meant)Krispy
You're not going to nit-pick, are you?Well, Philologos is not here to ask, so I thought I would for him. I was initiated into this forum on that topic. I learned to wear my helmet after that. :-)God Bless,-Robert
Robert, ha ha! that did so remind me of Ron! :-) I just wanted to add this about forbearance:In the year I have been on SI, I have seen quite a few disagreements about "doctrine" and such. I have rarely been in those arguments because I really have no qualification to do so. But- I have learned that for the most part, people are not swayed by arguments. They are swayed by the truth stated with love and conviction and then lived out in love.( and probably much secret prayer :) I have seen people on here change their beliefs after awhile because of the real love and Christlikeness displayed through someone. Never throguh arguments, debates or "I am right" attitudes. The Lord showed me once that I was to learn "FOREBEARANCE" before he would ever let me do any tyoe of public ministry. I have been learning this for the past couple of years and still working on it. I have saved this little paragraph about forbearance that cam to me via email from Living Stream Ministry the next day after I knew i was to learn about it.Phil. 4:5 Let your forbearance be known to all men. The Lord is near. In nothing be anxious, but in everything, by prayer and petition with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God. ~~~~The first aspect of the expression of a life that lives Christ is forbearance. Philippians 4:5 says, "Let your forbearance be known to all men." Later we shall see that a second aspect is the absence of anxiety. In a life that lives Christ there will be forbearance, but no anxiety, no worry. Paul considers forbearance and the lack of anxiety as the first two aspects of the expression of a life that lives Christ.A life that lives Christ is calm, tranquil, peaceful, and quiet. A life of turmoil, on the contrary, is a life that lives Satan. Forbearance is the most important element of a tranquil life. Forbearance is reasonableness and consideration in dealing with others. To have forbearance is to deal with others without strictness of legal right. If we would live a calm life, we must have forbearance.Forbearance includes patience and moderation, but goes beyond them. If you have forbearance, you will not argue with others, fight with them, or debate with them. You may have a great deal to say, but you will have patience and moderation in dealing with others and will not say anything in response to provocation or irritation. Forbearance is versus rivalry and vainglory, two negative things mentioned by Paul. Forbearance is also opposed to murmurings and reasonings. Whenever we have rivalry, vainglory, murmurings, and reasonings, there is no calm, no tranquility, no forbearance.
I just wanted to add this about forbearance:Absolutely... this is great. I agree with your post.Krispy
Krispy wrote:Absolutely... this is great. I agree with your post.Me too... but heck it can be fun sometimes !:knockedout:
Taken from FoxNews.comLt. Gen. James Mattis, a career infantry officer who is now in charge of developing better ways to train and equip Marines, made the comments Tuesday while speaking to a forum in San Diego.According to an audio recording, he said, "Actually, it's a lot of fun to fight. You know, it's a #&$% of a hoot. ... It's fun to shoot some people. I'll be right up front with you, I like brawling."He added, "You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil. You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a $&%# of a lot of fun to shoot them."++++++++++++++++++++++...and people on here think I am offensive? LOL!! (Actually, I was a Marine and was in Saudi and Iraq in the first go around 10 years ago... and I would love to have served under this man!)Krispy
You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a $&%# of a lot of fun to shoot them."and I would love to have served under this man!)I hope you are joking. You are just kidding, right?
I hope you are joking. You are just kidding, right?No. Ever been in a war?(lets not shoot off the topic... I just added that post to lighten the mood, and show that there are plenty of others more capable than I at offending people)Krispy
(lets not shoot off the topic... I just added that post to lighten the mood, and show that there are plenty of others more capable than I at offending people)I have not served in the military, and I have only the greatest respect for those who have, and are. This Marine General though it seems has lost some sense of focus.From Interviews I have seen with servicemen and woman, killing and wounding are always a last resort and done so reluctantly knowing what lasting affects it will have on their own emotional well-being in the years to follow.This post gives an alarming and revealing insight into just how "trigger happy" too many Christians are to mow down anyone they discern to be compromising, or sinful. I cannot see how it has "lightened" the mood, but I hope it will serve as a wake-up call to all who may have grown weary in our attempt to bring a Biblically balanced approach to judgement, repentance, and grace. May we again recognize the truth that Christ came to serve, and let our voice be one as we say together "How may I serve, how may I help."In Christ,tony
This post gives an alarming and revealing insight into just how "trigger happy" too many Christians are to mow down anyone they discern to be compromising, or sinful. Ahhh... thank you. I was wondering if anyone was gonna take the bait!! And you did...First off, let me explain that the military is not the place for political correctness or sensitivity training. When I said I would have loved to serve under this man... I meant that this is a General who knows how to get the job done, and is obviously not concerned with being politically correct. (I suggest you look into this man's service record... he needs to learn to not express himself so brashly, but his record is impeccable.)Now... the bait you took... What exactly about that post shows how trigger happy some Christians are to "mow down anyone they discern to be compromising, or sinful." Are you not making a judgement about me? Isnt your rebuke of my post a little hypocritical? See, we all make judgements about things. We can not help it. The key is to make sure we do it in a loving way. Just about everyone who has responded to my thread on judging has never really addressed the issues I have raised... everyone has only written about how we should be gentle and loving and caring. Those are good things, but we're so concerned about not offending anyone that we compromise our God given commands to stand and earnestly contend for the faith.Am I saying we should publicly whip someone who has any sin in their life? Of course not!But when someone assumes the role of a leader, or presumes to teach, then they are held to a higher standard. And if they are not qualified Biblically to be a leader, or they are teaching heretical doctrines... who will point this out? Paul told Timothy to "mark and avoid" false teachers. No one wants to do that anymore because no one wants to be labeled as "unloving".Suppose you were Peter... and Jesus said to you "Get thee behind me Satan" ... I suppose He would be unloving?Iron sharpens iron... but most Christians sword fight using peacock feathers.God is love... but we often forget that the Bible is a very negative book. Jesus was not a flower child we make Him out to be. Some of y'all would do well to listen to the Ray Comfort mp3's on this site.Krispy
Hi Krispy,Suppose you were Peter... and Jesus said to you "Get thee behind me Satan" ... I suppose He would be unloving?Preaching repentance is a loving thing to do, but it is surely not an enjoyable thing. A preacher stepped off the platform once and said, "I really ripped 'em from Dan to Burrr-sheebah (Beersheba) tonight!" He may have had a good message, but he was of the wrong Spirit.Personally I think a topic we really miss is one of discussing preaching exactly what the Holy Ghost is saying to the Churches. We need a "He that hath an ear let them hear..." message that speaks to the issues to wonderful for us. We look on the outward, but God knows what the remedy is. He has a balm or an eye salve to administer. This requires prayer. This requires fasting and sorely seeking the face of God. It takes ultra clean hands and a contrite heart.Sometimes ministers get criticised and they were preaching exactly what the Lord was saying to that people. Not necessarily a 'fired up' message; but what the Holy Ghost was saying. What the Church needs more than anything right now is direction from God. We see the problems- they are glaring. We need someone to step with a fresh word of direction to get out of this mess. We can judge the folks- but what is God saying to them? The prophets always had a word of direction for the people. We need a word like that.God Bless,-Robert
Amen brother... that was right on the money. We heap up for ourselves teaches who just tickle the ears. We've become such a "positive" "seeker-friendly" mushy church... and we've obstructed the truth. "Jesus loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life" is used to make converts, instead of helping them see their wretchedness. Lovey dovey Christianity is nice... but not at the cost of the truth.And as you pointed out... rebuking someone, or warning of a certain teacher is a serious thing, and our motivation must always be love. Love of the truth, love of seeing a brother or sister restored, etc etc.Good post, broKrispy
Hi Krispy,We have discussed this many times on SI before. We all know here that Jesus is not all about lovey dovey everything. We have discussed (many times)the whole "seeker sensative" message and churches, etc.....You really don't know us yet, but maybe with time. :)Most of us on here (regulars) have all heard most of the main messages on SI. And we agree. but as Robert said , it is the spirit behind it. Is it because you just want to be right? Or is it because your heart aches and groans for the deceived and lost. I know what God feels for His people who have turned against Him with their betrayal and their heart idolatry and their heart adultry (turning to other loves- not real people) I learned this last week even deeper. yes, He is upset and angry- but it also hurts Him very much. He loves His people and wants them reconciled to Him so much. He longs for them to turn back to Him. Read Ezekiel 16 or Hosea. Anguish must be behind the repentance message. You know if someone has lived it when they preach it. They must have first hand knowldege of this anguish. Just like Hosea.I think most of us on SI are not concerned about offending people. I offend people all the time. By my living mostly, not only my words.. my actions, my obedience to Christ. My family members and other "christians" do not like to see another believer walking in obedience because it convicts them. Not by arguing with them or trying to prove them wrong. I am more concerned that the inside of the cup is clean. Not only is there too much lukewarmness in the church, but there is too much hypocrisy. Saying one thing and doing another. Preaching a message and living a lie. The Lord must refine, and refine those who are to bring a repentance message - until there is nothing left but Christ.I just hope for my soul's sake and for the testimony of Jesus -if I ever rebuke, I am free from hidden sin.In His love, chanin
That was a great post... and I agree with it 100%.Krispy
In this field the spirit of the action is everything. Jesus never screamed rebukes nor said them through clenched teeth. Unless God gives very clear discernment we must be particularly cautious about judging motives. I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. (Joh 5:30 KJV)1)if I am consciously aware of my own nothingness and inability,and 2)if I have heard God's clear voice in my heart and3)if I am sure that I am seeking God's will and not my own, 4) if I am sure that God has sent me into this setting...then my judgment may be just; otherwise I had better be careful.So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. (Jam 2:12-13 KJV)
I meant that this is a General who knows how to get the job done, and is obviously not concerned with being politically correct. (I suggest you look into this man's service record... he needs to learn to not express himself so brashly, but his record is impeccable.)It's so often our speech that gives us away...And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. (Rev 13:11 KJV)He may be good at 'looking the part' but if he speaks like a dragon you may be sure he is a dragon.
In this field the spirit of the action is everything. Jesus never screamed rebukes nor said them through clenched teeth. Unless God gives very clear discernment we must be particularly cautious about judging motives. Right on... very good word, brother.Krispy
as Robert said , it is the spirit behind it. Is it because you just want to be right? Or is it because your heart aches and groans for the deceived and lost. Krispy, since I know you so well ;-) I do understand where you're coming from. I know you care about the Lord's commands and you believe in protecting the "sheep". What Robert and Chanin said above is so true though. I think when we (Body of Christ) speak against sin, it can't be just because we are going "by the Book"..........there has to be a great grieving towards those who are lost in their sin or deceived in sin. Our ultimate goal must always be for reconcilation and restoration. Unfortunately, on the internet many cannot see the "grieving" of the person typing. They just know they don't like their words. I'm a pretty matter of fact person, like you, so I know people get offended by me. The thing is, people who are offended, don't see my stomach in knots. This is not a good medium for clear communication-----especially with heartfelt concerns. I know you are speaking from the heart----though you ex Marines are a bit rough around the edges---unlike us ex Air Force people---gentle souls that we are:-D Anyways, don't confuse this site with the other one, because truly Krispy, they are nothing alike, believe me. On the other site, a small minority were Word focused, Gentle spirited people. Here, the majority are. Stick around for awhile and you will see that. Blessings brother. In Him, Cindyw
I thought I might throw out some excerpts from a tractate I'm am starting called Real Zeal. There is a disturbing trend I have noticed of late that troubles me greatly. I never knew there was so much contention between the Church and folks who are just fed up. The whole "Out-of-Church" movement was pretty new to me this time last year, but since then I have learned quite a bit. I personally know people who are so angry at the church that they refuse to go back. They pray at home and serve God at home. They refuse any contact with the church. They spend lots of time pointing out all of the faults of churches. I understand they are upset, but there are some very disturbing trends here.If anyone despises easy-believism and sin it would be me I suppose; not that I detest it more than others, but I dare say as much. So it was quite strange for me once to be at a house prayer meeting and a brother came in and started in on me. He even used curse words as he talked. I was the only 'church' goer there, so I was his point of contact. Pretty soon, it got out of hand. The brother whose house it was rose to his feet and dismissed him and his wife from the home and exhorted them to repent. That was my first real taste of the anger and resentment being leveled on the church for the shortcomings. No one measured up to his standards. The issues run the full spectrum when it comes to being upset. It could be anything from a 'soft' Gospel to an emphasis on money. Some it is more personal between the pastor and them. These are probably all legitimate problems, and we all agree on that if they are. The concern I have is for those who might be tempted to feed their zeal for God with the 'meat' of being angry at the Church. This is the biting and devouring of one another that Paul speaks of in Galatians 6. This can be very dangerous. Pretty soon instead of looking to the Holy Ghost for an unction, we look at a problem and are fueled in our zeal. That is fine until we lash out at the Bride of Christ. We must remember that the wrath of man does not work the righteousness of God.Zeal is something we have to keep a bridle on in our personal lives. It cuts like a two edged sword. Zeal is a good thing if it is fueled by legitimate means; if not, it will lead to a root of bitterness towards men in the name of God. I have done extensive studies of the The "Robbers", the The Assassins and THE ZEALOTS. One thing I have found, in time the zeal for God jumps the rails and heads in all sorts of directions for self-interest. What started out as one thing- slowly became more and more radical and unmerciful. And thus is the progression that must never come about; never can we alledge to love God so much that we hate our brother in our zeal. Brothers and sisters and whole legitimate Churches soon get set at naught simply because things dont 'measure up.' Again, look at the churches of the new Testament. Five of seven did not measure up in Revelation. Corinth did not measure up. Lydia, a woman pastor was heading up one church. By the time we get through looking them all over we had not attended any but Philedelphia. Some may have thought they were to much on love, but they were the only one that passed the test. Ephesus failed on love and hated sin and falsehood. They about lost their anointing. Just an intro...God Bless,-Robert
Haven't gotten completely through all this yet but these two most recent were worthy of note.Cindy, think you hit it on the head and hope that it could be said that it is Truth we are all after, hard truth, ugly truth, beautiful truth. How that can get expressed is the difficulty often times in this medium as you well said.Inflection. Indeed it has been duly noted, that we are all not Rhodes scholars about here nor do we have a bent toward those who might be better schooled. It is one of the more blessed things that happens, the brethren cutting across each others paths, some with loads of 'experience', perhaps longevity is a better word, some with little, without mowing people down in the wake. Nor do they care to. Pride is just such an ugly, ugly thing, no wonder it is a stench in Gods nostrils. But a lot of times it takes awhile to get a feel about the place and a feel for where each other are coming from, so there is patience with each other to a point. It can take the wrestling out loud awhile in the give and take to sort through things and hopefully we are all truly listening to each other and considering; Phi 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. Hopefully we will all be challenged to change our minds on occasion. And as long as no one is destroying the furniture... We have been blessed to have had relatively few problems around here, the only times that I can recall were either unruly house guests or that cockroach of the soul raising it's ugly head.Think Robert really got at the heart of the matter here. The anger. Was just going over this again this morning;Luk 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village. Indeed it's not 'Kumbya' all the time but neither is it without the sense of 'IF....I can rebuke without a pang'
Robert your reply brought back to mind this excellent article from Leonard Ravenhill:Zeal, Love AblazeAlso can be read here;http://www.lastdaysministries.org/articles/zeal.htmlAn excerpt:One day God grabbed me by the collar and showed me something: Judgment comes out of spiritual immaturity. Mature Christians will pray, discern, love, and counsel. If need be they’ll rebuke, but never in a critical, destructive spirit, and never publicly to shame and punish. That’s the godly way. Immature Christians can have a lot of zeal but little wisdom. They can put fire and noise into things that harm rather than help the cause of Christ. I fell into that trap and, like James and John, the Lord rebuked me for judging others.You see, when we judge we step into the place of God. God alone is the judge of the motives of our hearts. If Jesus had wanted to call down fire on that Samaritan village, He could have done it Himself without the help of His disciples. These guys wanted to usurp Jesus’ authority, and so He had to set them straight.
Krispy, since I know you so well I do understand where you're coming from. I know you care about the Lord's commands and you believe in protecting the "sheep". What Robert and Chanin said above is so true though. I think when we (Body of Christ) speak against sin, it can't be just because we are going "by the Book"..........there has to be a great grieving towards those who are lost in their sin or deceived in sin. Our ultimate goal must always be for reconcilation and restoration. Unfortunately, on the internet many cannot see the "grieving" of the person typing. They just know they don't like their words. I'm a pretty matter of fact person, like you, so I know people get offended by me. The thing is, people who are offended, don't see my stomach in knots. This is not a good medium for clear communication-----especially with heartfelt concerns. I know you are speaking from the heart----though you ex Marines are a bit rough around the edges---unlike us ex Air Force people---gentle souls that we are Hey Cindy... good to see you hop in.I really dont have any problem with anyone's responses here. It only took a day or so of cruising this site to see that most folks are serious about the Word of God. I was inspired to start this thread because I had a private IM conversation with a brother on this site who had a real emotional tirade concerning something I said. I stand beside what I said, and I honestly believe I said it boldly, but not offensively. However, this person seems to label anyone who would critique his doctrines as hateful, spiteful and judgemental (and he used the old "Do not touch the Lord's annointed" line on me). The purpose of this thread is to point out that it is not a hateful thing to expose error.Am I rough around the edges? Yea... and God's been smoothing some of that out. I've a long ways to go. However, people need to not be so quick to be offended or hurt.And you're correct, sometimes intentions and motivations do get lost in the words when the reader is the one who interprets what your saying through whatever glasses they happen to be wearing.Krispy
Cindy... by the way... did you know we're expecting a baby anyday? This will be our fourth son. ...my wife has given up on having a girl.Krispy
did you know we're expecting a baby anyday? This will be our fourth son.Wow, congratulations to you and your wife! How wonderful to have another child to glorify the Lord. May you all be blessed!In Him, Chanin
Hey Krisp,You're all right brother. That line is 'old' and cleverly misplaced.Am I rough around the edges? Yea... and God's been smoothing some of that out. I've a long ways to go. However, people need to not be so quick to be offended or hurt.Is true of many of us, all the iron sharpening can produce flying slivers sometimes. Here is a great message that I think is applicable for everyone: Blessedness of the UnoffendedT. Austin Sparkshttps://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=3196&forum=31#24727And by the way do let us know when your gift arrives!