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Mike Bickle wants book about Catholic mystics to be "manual" at Ihop

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sermonindex

Babylon transferred her satanic worship system, where contemplative Transcendental Meditation became the vehicle to stoke the power, to Rome. Rome melded into the what we call the Roman Universal [ Catholic ] Church, that has wielded that same power; and it is wicked.

From "My word like fire!"...wordpress

Like all Christian contemplatives, Bickle works hard at presenting this [ Contemplative, Transcendental Meditation ] as biblically acceptable. He states there is “…a lot of counterfeit mysticism…” Before teaching his Christianese mantra method, he again emphasizes he is not talking about Eastern or Oprah religion.


I am sorry to say contemplative prayer seems foundational to IHOP, which means much deception has occurred, and will continue to occur. As covered elsewhere, Mike Bickle wants Fire Within, a book promoting the teachings of Catholic contemplatives Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross, to be the “manual for IHOP-KC.”

Mike Bickle claims that "God is restoring contemplative prayer to the church."; He goes on to claim that contemplative prayer is a God-ordained means of entering into the fullness of God, and that the brightest lights in church history have been Roman Catholic mystics who lived during the dark ages.

He went on to say the western church had much to learn from these mystics,” writes Jocelyn Andersen. I am quoting Andersen because the contemplative teaching where Bickle says these things seems to have been removed from the web.

Long time IHOP teacher and Missions base senior leadership member Dana Candler is the author of Deep Unto Deep. A reviewer writes, “[ "Deep Unto Deep: The Journey of His Embrace"] is inspired by the journal of Dana Candler who spends most of her time in contemplative prayer in KC, Mo. at the Int. House of Prayer.”

In Communion With God: Deep Unto Deep, Candler states, “Contemplative prayer is the way into the Ocean of Divine Love. It is the way that this fire of intimacy ignites within our being. In this love communion, the tremendous experience of God in the inner man takes place. Until this inward fire is ignited, stewarded, and released within us, we will walk as dead men. For we are only alive in the realm of love.” (Italics Candler’s) [ nirvana BT ]

Contemplative prayer, Candler writes, “is the great missing element of the prayer ministry in the Church today: touching the very core of what the New Covenant is about. This very reality brings the highest transformation in this age.”

[…and them that worship and that swear by the Lord, and that swear by Mal-cham. (Zephaniah 1:5)]....

What Candler has unknowingly asserted is that the gospel is not enough–we are “dead men” until we experience the “transformation” through contemplative prayer. She, of course, would not see it this way at all. To the contemplatives, this deceptive meditative state is what Jesus intended for us all along.

Since Candler is not only a teacher, but influential in missions, are some IHOP missionaries teaching contemplative practices? [ All are!..BT ]

If we are to believe Fire Within, the contemplative book Mike Bickle wants as “the manual for IHOP-KC,” we need the contemplative teachings of Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross to understand some biblical passages.title of the book is Fire Within: St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, and the Gospel–On Prayer.


Incredibly, Bickle’s “manual” is about Catholic, contemplative mystics! Also for sale on the website are books by and about St. John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, and even Madame Guyon.

Another book being offered is The Forgotten Desert Mothers, by Laura Swan. Swan writes, “We begin to discard our old ways and go in search of new ways of communicating with God. Our prayer matures and takes on new forms.” And what are these new forms?

Swan states, ”Centering prayer, lectio divina, Christian meditation, Taize, and the Divine Office are all sought. Prayer moves us toward the simple: often sitting silently before the Divine–in contemplative or centering prayer–is all we feel drawn to do.”

Richard Foster’s Celebration of Discipline is for sale; as is Clowning in Rome and The Way of the Heart by Henri Nouwen.

James Goll’s Dream Language can also be purchased through the IHOP bookstore. According to Product Description, “After centuries of neglect, the church is rediscovering the realm of dreams and visions as a legitimate avenue for receiving divine revelation.”

Goll, too, is a contemplative. In his study guide on Consecrated Contemplative Prayer, Goll writes, “I wish to express thanks to our Lord for the writings of Richard Foster.”

I am not trying to aggravate those who support IHOP, but is it possible Bickle’s…odd…interpretation of certain Bible passages is the result of contemplative prayer? Make no mistake: contemplative practices can change–or determine–a person’s theology.

In an audio message, Mike Bickle apparently voiced great enthusiasm for contemplative prayer. Jocelyn Andersen has transcribed some of what was said. Kim Olsen of Discernit has reproduced IHOP’s promotion of contemplative prayer.

Perhaps it is not surprising that these have vanished from the web but can still be examined because of the diligence of these two saints.

One last thing: If you are wondering what contemplative prayer is, here is a link to an excellent article, What Is Spiritual Formation?

We are in a war. Through contemplative practices a false Christ–many false christs, actually–have great opportunity to deceive.


http://mywordlikefire.wordpress.com/2011/07/29/mike-bickle-of-ihop-wants-book-about-catholic-mystics-to-be-manual-for-ihop-kc/

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KingJimmy

Quick question: Would you be willing to apply the same criticism to A.W. Tozer who was known for his celebration of the Catholic mystics?

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sermonindex

"Quick question: Would you be willing to apply the same criticism to A.W. Tozer who was known for his celebration of the Catholic mystics?"...King Jimmy

I am not applying criticism as much as posting a very thorough article posing important theological questions. So, what is your response KJ, to the question posed? Did you take time to read the article, and visit the site and study the documentation?

How do you feel about immersing your church in these practices? Do you think they are of God?

Tozer may have studied the mystics, but he never taught them as orthodoxy, and as you must know, I posted a very controversial thread about exactly that; Tozer's connection to the mystics, and some of them secular Buddhists; You talk about staining the sacred cow!

I believe we should question all things and all men under the light of the Spirit agreeing to the Word, no matter a Church or person's reputation or standing.

So the discussion here is: Transcendental meditative focus, and guided imagery, and chanting to attain revelation and Heavenly Bliss? IS THIS OF GOD?

I believe that it is not, obviously.

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KingJimmy

I read the essay very carefully. I was just curious.

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Solomon101

@ brothetom

I read the essay you posted. It seemed to be awfully long on opinions and pretty short on facts. Well, at least that was how it seemed.

Have you actually read the book , "Fire Within" that you posted the article on?

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Trekker

BY IHOP you mean International House of Pancakes, right? They went out of business here, so don't worry.

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sermonindex

Babylon transferred her satanic worship system, where contemplative Transcendental Meditation became the vehicle to stoke the power, to Rome

At the heart of Brother Tom's concern, it seems to me, lies a desire to draw attention to an effect. This effect is presented in the above quote. We don't personally know all the human story as to how the first world system of government, even Babylon, was migrated to Rome. We think of the four kingdoms and then we think of the men or individuals who were head of those kingdoms, we think of the division of a kingdom into four, etc. What we don't see beyond war, struggle division and individual pride of say Nebuchadnezzar, or Alexander, or Caesar, is the power behind their activities.

We do see that their activities are either spoken about or else prophesied and we do see God's attitude to the first king in that chain Nimrod. It is also curious that Nebuchadnezzar is given the name 'righteous king' which is a name of the Lord. This denotes something real and substantial about him. Even so we know that after him babel is carried all the way to Rome. From Rome it has come to the whole earth. Yet not by Caesar, but by bishops and popes.

It is a fearful knowledge to me that almost all wickedness on the earth has come by the hand of men who were convinced that they were serving God. Not that these men were altogether wicked, but that Satan has used their power and efforts to promote and present his ambition to be like God.

We can trace this 'working of iniquity' back to Satan himself, but how is it that he manages to have his outcome for an hour. What power in men makes this possible.

From a man, a city and a tower, a people, another city, to kingdoms then all the way back to a man. Its quiet a wicked journey. Nimrod had the capacity to instruct and lead those who were influenced by him to seek to ascend to heaven by means of man's efforts. So we had a city and a tower. God's response to that effort was astonishing and dramatic and sudden. Today God also has a response to the man of sin. Where does wisdom lie however with regard to these matters? The power of Satan is not Satan himself, but man. I pray that this does not cause anyone to become confused. The 'mystery of iniquity' is I believe best understood by its effect. History is only a scroll in the hand of the Almighty.

Genesis 10:10
Genesis 11:1-9
Amongst others

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murrcolr

Guys we must be careful not get involved in “mysticism”.

I am a guy who believes that God does a second work of grace in the believer. However in my quest for truth I have found two paths that men have walked in the past. The differences in those paths are very subtle and the false must be rejected, as one will lead you to error the other leads to truth.

1 Tim 6:20 O Timothy, guard and keep the deposit entrusted [to you]! Turn away from the irreverent babble and godless chatter, with the vain and empty and worldly phrases, and the subtleties and the contradictions in what is falsely called knowledge and spiritual illumination. (Amplified bible)

We must take heed of Paul warning to Timothy.

Avoid the mystic’s teaching as their teaching is of subtleties and contradictions in what is falsely called knowledge and spiritual illumination.

I can see the lines being drawn very clearly and it’s getting clearer every day it’s not the time to be messing around. Will you be one who will worship the beast or overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

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Trekker

I had read about Madame Guyon years ago but can't recall much except that she was a bit of a mystic and had rebelled against some of the Catholic system, was abused and sent to prison where she wrote many books, etc. She had a good heart
(as did Mother Teresa and Princess Diana--two people obviously not saved) and a form of religion but....not sure if she was saved or not....she seemed to have religious or spiritual experiences....but i had read other things that didnt add up or make sense in terms of doctrine....

Norman Grubb is/was a mystic also. He wrote the bio about Intercessor Rees Howells. Mystics sound very convincing.

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Solomon101

I have two specific questions. The first one I have already posed to brothertom.

However, he has not yet responded so allow me broaden the base if you will.

1. Has anyone actually read the book , "Fire Within" that the article was posted on?

2. Very specifically, and in detail, please define exactly how you are defining the words, "Mystic(s)", and "Contemplative Prayer".

For example.... Contemplative prayer specifically means..... in exact detail it is...


Please fill in the blanks for us, so to speak.

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sermonindex

BY IHOP you mean International House of Pancakes, right?
I didn't expect this slapstick, LOL.

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sermonindex

And what is meant by mystic? God is appearing to moslems in dreams and visions. These appearances result in their salvation. Isn't't this mystical? John Bunyon was a dreamer of dreams? Woukd he not be described as a mystic?

Bearmaster.

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sermonindex

Solomon101 asked a couple of questions addressed to me.They are:.........

1. Has anyone actually read the book , "Fire Within" that the article was posted on?

2. Very specifically, and in detail, please define exactly how you are defining the words, "Mystic(s)", and "Contemplative Prayer".

For example.... Contemplative prayer specifically means..... in exact detail it is...[?]

Please fill in the blanks for us, so to speak. Solomon 101............................................

I have not read the book "FIRE WITHIN", written by Roman Priest, "Father" Thomas Dubay. I see the Roman Popish church as a mortal enemy of the true church of Christ, supremely perverted and a Satanic Cult. Why would I want to read their convoluted teachings trying to support Papal worship and dominion and worship of another mediator than Christ Jesus, the omnipotent Mary, Satanic Queen of Heaven?

As far as to your demand to specifically define what Contemplative prayer IS, I leave you to the words of the teacher himself, Mike Bickle. Here, word for word, and line upon line, he answers your inquiry...................................BT

Contemplative Prayer—–Communing with the Holy Spirit who lives within you
I. Know He Lives Inside of You
II. Pray the Scripture
The goal is to search for the Spirit of Jesus in the Word and have depth, not necessarily length, in understanding the passage. Jesus is the Word (John 1) and we want to know Him, the Truth. In Him is life; it is His Spirit who gives life. The words of Scripture are Spirit and they are life (John 6:63). The entrance of the Word gives light and life (Psalm 119:130). As the Word of God enters your heart, the Spirit of God who raised Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal body (Romans 8:11).

Make sure you are searching for the Spirit of Jesus, not just searching for knowledge. Just pray the Scriptures. In simple terms, prayer is turning your heart toward God. In John 5:39, Jesus said to the Pharisees, “You do not have His Word abiding in you … you search the Scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life, and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.”

Method #1

Choose a short phrase in Scripture.

Begin slowly praying the Scripture in silence.

Focus your prayer toward the Spirit who lives inside you (John 7:38).

Remain on the phrase as long as you feel the Lord’s presence on it. Then move with Him, slowly praying through the passage phrase by phrase.

Method #2
Choose a short story in Scripture.

Read through the story several times silently.

Close your eyes and acknowledge the Spirit who lives in you.

Use your imagination to imagine yourself as one of the story characters or as an onlooker.

Play out the story in your mind applying all five of your senses.

Method #3
We call this “Beholding the Spirit Within.”

The goal is to search for and feel God’s presence inside you, not necessarily to gain more understanding in God’s Word as with the first two methods.

Begin by gently praying a short passage of Scripture in silence while focusing on the indwelling Spirit. The Scripture is used to quiet the clamoring of your soul and draw you to God. It is the connection point, the springboard into the spiritual realm.

Once you feel God’s presence, focus on it in a concentrated way.

You will be able to notice His presence now; He has always been there, but now your attention is on Him within you. The outward senses are quiet and your surface thoughts are gone. You are beginning to be consumed by the Spirit.

In this time, feel the freedom to stay quiet. Silently ask the Spirit to show you a vision, or slowly and silently say to Him, “I love You. I love You. I love You.”

Overcoming Distractions


Your mind will have to be trained in practical ways to not wander and think on other things. To overcome a wandering mind, simply begin thinking on the Scripture you have been meditating on, and focus your prayer to the Spirit within you. The Lord sees your heart as it searches for Him, and He is smiling upon you. You may become sleepy during prayer. To overcome, sit up straight instead of slouching and do not lie down. You can also begin speaking the Scripture you are meditating on under your breath until you feel the drowsiness subside, then return to the silent prayer.

Diligence in Prayer
In time these methods of praying will become easy. You will find the Spirit who lives in you if you search for Him with all your heart, but it will require time and your whole heart.

Keys to Progress


Humility-the high and lofty One dwells with the lowly in heart (Isaiah 57)

Disciplined life of prayer, fasting, giving and loving your enemies (Matthew 6)

Total abandonment in love to Jesus and loving nothing of this life (Matthew 7:14)...............

Whew! Maharishi Yoga could not have done a better job in leading us to Nirvana.

"The goal is to search for and feel God’s presence inside you, not necessarily to gain more understanding in God’s Word as with the first two methods."...MB.........


"Close your eyes and acknowledge the Spirit who lives in you.

Use your imagination to imagine yourself as one of the story characters or as an onlooker.

Play out the story in your mind applying all five of your senses.".....MB..............

"You will be able to notice His presence now; HE HAS ALWAYS BEEN THERE???..., but now your attention is on Him within you. The outward senses are quiet and your surface thoughts are gone. You are beginning to be consumed by the Spirit.".......MB

This is at the root of the methods of Transcendental Meditation, that numbs the soul and the conscience to transport you into the cosmic realms...BT

"It is the connection point, the springboard into the spiritual realm."...Mike Bickle.......................................

Granted, as all of the mystics do, this ancient mind-set to attain another consciousness is veneered with bible quotes to bond it to orthodoxy as a means to present palatablity to the naive. It is far from Biblical Holy Doctrine, and as can be easily discerned, is couched deep within the heresies of Roman Papal Dominion. BT

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Solomon101

@ BT

You stated :

As far as to your demand to specifically define what Contemplative prayer IS, I leave you to the words of the teacher himself, Mike Bickle. Here, word for word, and line upon line, he answers your inquiry

You are then saying that you agree with the definition you posted that are apparent quotes from Mike Bickle, correct? YOU are saying that YOU are agreeable to using the words from Bickle that you posted as YOUR workable definition for "contemplative prayer". Correct?

Lastly, can you provide a link, or some source that can be verified, for what was posted as quotes from Mike Bickle?

Thanks!

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sermonindex

The quotes I used are direct quoted from Mike Bickle that I personally read on the IHOP website, presented as a teaching on prayer. The article created such a firestorm, and and revealed just how steeped in Roman Mysticism that he, and IHOP were, that many Protestant orthodox flinched in horror.

As a result, the article was pulled, and deleted from Bickle's teaching/IHOP page, but not before several websites had copied, and or embedded it. Not only did I read it on IHOP's page, but also on other sites. This is in no way "MY" "workable" definition. This is a teaching verbatim directly from Mike.

"You are then saying that you agree with the definition you posted that are apparent quotes from Mike Bickle, correct? YOU are saying that YOU are agreeable to using the words from Bickle that you posted as YOUR workable definition for "contemplative prayer". Correct?" Solomon101

Not Correct; The indisputable opposite. Here is one of many.


http://kimolsen.wordpress.com/2008/08/04/ihop-openly-promotes-contemplative-prayervisualization/

So, I take it that you support "Contemplative Prayer", and IHOP's methods? Believe what you will. This will be my last post directed to your inquiries, and, you are welcome!

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murrcolr

Quote: Norman Grubb is/was a mystic also. He wrote the bio about Intercessor Rees Howells. Mystics sound very convincing

Yes of course they do……….

Norman Grubb, The Central Secret of Union

The great cry of the hearts of the saints of the ages was union. They expressed it in a certain terminology (which is impressive to some of us), describing the way to union as purgation, illumination, and finally union – three phases which to some extent resemble the little children, young men and fathers of John’s first letter. It doesn’t exactly correspond, but it’s somewhere near.

----------------------


The journey to mystical experience, almost universally, involves three stages: purgation, illumination and union so what are they.

Purgation

Purgation is the cleansing stage which begins with self-examination and penitence and leads to a holy life. Sixteenth-century monk, St. John of the Cross, is best known for his description of this stage which he called the “dark night of the soul.” During the dark night the soul of an individual feels abandoned by God, spiritually dry and at the point of despair. John saw this as a way in which God purified the soul by suffering, for only when the soul has been purified is it in a position to experience a rapturous union with God. This purgation involved detachment from the things of the world including material and physical desires; and mortification, the building of new paths to replace the old ones now rejected.

Illumination

At some point the purgation stage bleeds over into the illumination stage in which the mystic begins to experience inner voices and visions. The goal of illumination is to know genuine spiritual truth, but such truth cannot be found in conventional or even rational ways. The true mystic has come to the conclusion that the secret and “deep” things of God cannot be understood rationally. They can only be understood through the experience of illumination. One of the earliest Christian mystics, who is known today as Pseudo-Dionysius, taught that to achieve the ultimate prize of union with God, “The soul must lose the inhibitions of the senses and of reason. God is beyond the intellect, beyond goodness itself, and it is through unknowing, and the discarding of human concepts, that the soul returns to God and is united with the ‘ray of divine darkness.’” The means by which mystics achieved illumination was through fasting, long seasons of specialized prayers known as contemplative prayers and by following various spiritual disciplines of which the best known today were designed by the Catholic monk and founder of the Jesuits, Ignatius Loyola.

Union

The ultimate goal of the mystic is unmediated union with God. This point, at which the soul attains oneness with God, “was the mystical ecstasy in which, for a brief indescribable moment, all barriers seemed to be swept away and new insight supernaturally imparted as one gave himself over fully to the Infinite One.” The ancient mystics would frame this experience in romantic, even sensual terms. John of the Cross “describes the union in terms of spiritual betrothal, where the soul, conceived of as feminine, is married to Christ as the bridegroom. In other places he may say… ‘The centre of the soul is God.’”Bernard of Clairvaux (12th-century), who managed to turn the Song of Solomon into an erotic love story between God and man, described this moment of union as the time when the believer is “kissed with the kisses of His mouth.” Similar depictions are common in mystical literature.

But there is one little problem. If this is how God wanted His followers to connect with Him why didn’t He bother to say so in His Word? If contemplative prayer is the key that will unlock this greater dimension of spirituality why didn’t teach them that when they asked teach us how to pray

The heart and soul of mysticism, any type of mysticism, Christian or otherwise, is the art of meditation or contemplation. Its origin is not the Bible but Eastern and Christian mystics. It should be mentioned that contemplative prayer (often simply called meditation) is the essence of Hinduism and Buddhism and is practiced virtually identically to the Christianized form.

The constant theme of the mystic is that union with God is possible through contemplative prayer, and that union with God is found within us. St. Teresa of Ávila states, “As I could not make reflection with my understanding I contrived to picture Christ within me.” She is quoted as also saying, “Settle yourself in solitude and you will come upon Him in yourself.” Such statements show why the mystics were accused of pantheism. Silence is a noted feature of contemplation. Catherine de Haeck Doherty writes, “All in me is silent and… I am immersed in the silence of God.” Francis de Dales notes, “by means of imagination we confine our mind within the mystery on which we meditate.” Imagination is highly important to the mystics. As Teresa informs us, this is not an endeavor that comes from their understanding. Mystics are hung out in thin air, so to speak, and must make contact with God through imagination rather than through the rational use of their minds. The power of such experience becomes evident as Foster tells us, “We are to live in a perpetual, inward, listening silence so that God is the source of our words and actions.”

So, through contemplative prayer the person is to empty his mind (detach) then fill it with imaginative experiences with Christ (attach) who we will find in the silence of our souls, resulting in God becoming the source of our words and actions.

Edited for spelling

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sermonindex

I will attempt to answer your questions Solomon101. I am not familiar with the group recommending the book, but I was received into the Catholic Church this past Easter and it is written by a Catholic Priest, based on two mystics of the Church, St John of the Cross and St Teresa of Avila.

1. Yes I have read the book, but not thoroughly as I would like, there's a lot to take in.

2. A mystic is someone who practices 'mystical' often called contemplative or infused prayer.

3. Christic contemplative prayer is described as a deep love communion with the triune God. It is a knowing and loving we cannot produce but only receive, which is why it is described as infused. It is a gradual process which is barely perceptible at first and develops usually over several years.

There is no "process". It is infused and usually doesn't come without serious growth in virtue and a regular mental (meditative) prayer.

It's quite involved how contemplation develops, it can be a quite painful process at times, which the book goes into. I meditate on the scriptures, but have not experienced contemplation.

I hope that helps :)

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murrcolr

quote: I meditate on the scriptures

Here is one to meditate on..

Rom3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law

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sermonindex

I prefer to read USA Today at IHOP. If I have to start reading Catholic Mystic books at IHOP then I am going to start going to Cracker Barrel for breakfast.

As far as Mike Bickle... who cares?

Krispy

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TMK

Trekker wrote:

"She had a good heart
(as did Mother Teresa and Princess Diana--two people obviously not saved)"

I am just curious how you can make such a statement. At least add "in my opinion." I for one will be a a tad surpised if I do not meet Mother Teresa in heaven. But then again, perhaps I am "obviously not saved."

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Theophila

The lines are being drawn in the sand, on the wall, in the sky and in every available place, if we will but have eyes to see.

Son of God, please help me to be faithful to You to the very end.

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sermonindex

I am just curious how you can make such a statement. At least add "in my opinion." I for one will be a a tad surpised if I do not meet Mother Teresa in heaven. But then again, perhaps I am "obviously not saved."

Let me preface this by saying that I truly hope Mother Teresa was saved. However, may I ask what you base your opinion on? There is not one thing in all of her writings that indicate that she had a biblical salvation experience.

On the contrary all of her writings show that placed her faith in the Catholic Church and in the sacraments and her good works for salvation... not in Christ and Christ alone.

The last writings of her life she expressed that she had no assurance that she was saved.

Now, we can not sit here and judge her heart. But we can read what she wrote (and her words are a window to her heart) and document that her faith was in her works and in the Catholic Church.

Christians have a hard time swallowing that all indications are that she was not saved. They have this hard time because they look at all the good deeds she did.

So are we saved based upon our good deeds? Or do we believe what the Word says... that ALL our "good deeds" are filthy rags and mean NOTHING when it comes to our salvation.

Krispy

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TMK

KK wrote:

"However, may I ask what you base your opinion on?"

Hope-- nothing more. I do not know her heart...God knows. Did she believe in Jesus? Was she abiding in the vine? Did she bear fruit? Did she do what Jesus said to do? Was her theology "exactly right?" Who knows... God knows.

I am put off by blanket statements about dead individuals' salvation or non-salvation. There are indicators, of course. But to say someone "obviously" is not saved is a tad presumptious, I think.

Was Martin Luther "obviously saved?" What about his rabid anti-semitism? Who knows... God knows.

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sermonindex

I understand what you're saying. I agree to a point. What I am trying to say is that if she put her faith in the things that she said she did... and demonstrated to have done... then she was not saved.

Yes, she showed "fruit"... but so does Bill Gates. He does a lot of good around the world. There are atheists that do what we would all consider to be "good".

It doesnt mean a thing.

It would be wonderful if in the last hours of her life the light went on and she understood. I hope so!

Krispy

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Solomon101

Interesting thing. This thread reminded me of an old Keith Green song. Actually the first "contemporary" Christian song I had ever heard after I got saved.

I think several here will remember Keith's music and hold him in high regard. There are 13 messages of his archived here on SI as well.

Do any of you remember his incredible rendition of "The Sheep And The Goats"?
If you have heard it.....you will remember it.

Anywayzzz.... some of you will recall at the end of the song/story/conviction explosion Keith Green states

the only difference between the sheep and the goats, according to the scripture, is what they did and didn't do!

Interesting thoughts. In the case of Mother Theresa, if it is claimed she was "unsaved" are we then saying that a "corrupt tree" brought forth more good fruit than virtually every "good tree" known on the face of the earth? That does violate some clear scriptures ......... and what about Keith Green's take on the sheep and the goat's?

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pilgrim777

I was at a Keith Green concert in Sacramento in a very small hall in '77. Having many years passed since then, I and maybe Keith would now say this:

"the only difference between the sheep and the goats, according to the scripture, is Who they knew or did not know!"

Pilgrim

P.S. Colin, those particular quotes from Norman Grubb (they are from him, right?), I would not agree with.

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murrcolr

Quote: Colin, those particular quotes from Norman Grubb (they are from him, right?), I would not agree with.

Did you mean Colin, those particular quotes from Norman Grubb I would not agree with.

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sermonindex

To Solomon101;

So we drift from Mike Bickle and his obvious doctrine promoting Contemplative, Transcendental Meditation as holy Christian prayer...[ It is not.] to associating Kieth Green as an advocate of Works based justification in his faith, all from the lyrics of one popular song he performed.

Then, we coronate Mother Teresa as bringing forth good fruit on a world-wide Apostolic level, more than any known.

"In the case of Mother Theresa, if it is claimed she was "unsaved" are we then saying that a "corrupt tree" brought forth more good fruit than virtually every "good tree" known on the face of the earth? "...Solomon101

Mother Teresa fed and cared for the dalit underclass of the Hindi, but that is the extent of her good works. She refused to lead these exiles to Christ, [ understanding that she could not anyway, for she never knew Him ] for she assessed this to be below their dignity.

She believed that these poor and wretched should be given graces to trust in their own god. None of them were ever told about Christ Jesus as being the one and only Savior; they were kept in their sin, as a lost one, according to her belief system.[ read autobiography ]

In effect, Mother Teresa greased the slides of Hell for these pitiful souls to be thrust into. This is one of her more famous quotes:

In the foreword of her book, "Everything Starts With Prayer [ meditative, transcendental], Anthony Stern points out the ecumenical spirit of Mother Teresa’s work by praising her oft-quoted statement:

“I’ve always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic.”

She practiced this Ecumenical, Universal approach to her ministry all her life, and never ministered Salvation or repentance from demonic devotion. This , in my book, is no ambassador of Christ; but quite the opposite; It is cruel, and wicked.

As far as associating Kieth Green as promoting a works oriented faith, you are stretching this into the absurd. Kieth [ I have met him, and attended numerous events where he ministered; [ not close ] Green was a very solid evangelical high on repentance and living holy, and somewhat drawn to Charles Finney in doctrine. I have read him, and know several that were close to him.

I wonder if this is dogma driving you, or something else? It seems unsettling to me to drive these things with so little foundation.

P
pilgrim777

Hi Tommy,

I certainly did not mean to say Keith is "works based". Just bringing out that "who you know" most definitely produces works.

The "works' that we all do, emanate from who we are fellowshipping with.

God bless you, brother,
Pilgrim

Hi Colin,

I don't agree with contemplative prayer or penance or "emptying" the mind.

S
sermonindex

Is Thomas A'Kempis a Catholic Mystic?

If so, I like this guy, he had a lot of good writings.

P
pilgrim777

Yes, Approved, he is considered a "mystic" by many. Mystic has come to mean a "bad" thing, but you just have to "hold fast to that which is good".

Was Paul a mystic because he wanted to know Christ in the fellowship of His sufferings? Was he a mystic because he had visions and even some think taken out of his body to the 3rd heaven.

You have to deal with books like people. One on one and don't accept anything that does not agree with the Spirit and the Word.

Pilgrim

S
sermonindex

I have never considered the word "Mystic" to be a bad word, I consider the word to mean the same as "Sages" or "Oracles", or even a Seer. I know those words are associated with witchy stuff, societies change words around and perhaps one day the word 'gay' in society will again mean colourful and happy.

G
Giggles

Seems a little dated to be bringing up this conversation. I remember reading Bickle's quote on this book years ago, but, it is still posted in this book's description in their web store, so I suppose it's fair game.

As for the book itself, I have read it (I think initially due to Bickle's advice no less!). I went through a brief season of studying the mystics after having been pointed to them by various Christian saints (among them the good Tozer and even Mr. Ravenhill).

Dubay essentially synthesizes the prayer teachings of St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila. He writes fairly academically; some of the sentence structure requires moderate thought to follow, and his vocabulary is on a graduate level. As a Catholic, Dubay follows the Catholic tendency to really, really admire Teresa and John. For me, I found this slightly annoying and actually skipped over some of their biographical information Dubay included at the front of his book.

All in all, I remember enjoying the book. Looking at it now, the pages have a fair amount of underlines. When I read, I star passages that blow my socks off and write the page number on an index card I keep in the book. Fire Within earned 14 stars. Here are some of the starred passages:

-Without humility, detachment, and sound doctrine there is no deep communion with the Lord....quality of prayer correlates with quality of life...lifestyle and prayer grow or diminish together...the apostles themselves considered their duty to be prayer first of all...(page 9)

-The holier the confessor, the gentler he is, and the less he is scandalized at other people's faults, because he understands man's weak condition better. (page 37)

-It is important to note that authentic meetings with God produce personal goodness, even heroic goodness that is far beyond human capacity. (page 41).

-Here we have the core of the economy of salvation: salvation effected by union, transformative participation in the divine nature, a beginning in faith of what shall be completed in vision; an eternal enthrallment in Father, Son, and Spirit; purest beauty, joy, and love. (page 64).

-...many people unwittingly water down Scripture as they read it. They fail to notice or attend to the uncompromising totality that we read on every page. (page 108).

-...carrying the cross is a gift...(page 126)

-Love is the measure of our ability to bear crosses. (page 127)

-If anyone is serious about loving God totally, he must willingly entertain no self-centered pursuit of finite things sought for themselves, that is, devoid of honest direction to God, our sole end and purpose. (page 134)

-solid love is to be found not hidden away in corners but in dealing with others...in the midst of occasion of sin. (page 227)

Reading the quotes now, quite some time after reading them the first time, I'm not especially impressed by them, but they reflect the flavor of medieval Christianity: majoring on self-denial, imitation of Christ, and experiential communion with God. I lean more toward the grace side of things now, but I do appreciate the zeal and practical steps this stream of Christianity presents.

C
Compton

Mysticism, in recent years has become a synonymous with personal spiritual "experience". Certainly in the scriptures there are several accounts, such as Paul's (Saul) roadside encounter with Christ, that would loosely meet that definition.

Additionally there are many heartfelt writings of devotion left behind by saints who were clearly speaking from a personal knowledge of the Lord, and whose deep insight and passion stands in welcome relief to the typical shallow religous writings of the 20th century. I believe many of these writers such as Thomas à Kempis had a deeply personal experience of the Lord.

However, the reason mysticism remains controversial is precisely because it is personal, private and singular.

"But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation." 2 Peter 1:20

When the strength of our faith in the Gospel is measured by the dept of our "experience", rather then the authority of the Scripture, we can be both vunerable to deception, and invulnerable to correction all at the same time.

I can admire the intensely personal devotion found within the mystic tradition, but I do not see how I can completely surrender my intellect and heart to anything but what is given to me in the pages of Scripture. And I believe the Holy Spirit wants to illuminate to all of us, a deeper understanding of His words, as we obey. Yet I do not think we should regard this personal experience anything as rarified as "mysticism", but rather regard it as the normal Christian life described in the bible.

"But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away."
2 Corinthians 3:16

“Open my eyes, that I may see wondrous things from Your law." Ps. 119:18

Blessings,

MC

S
sermonindex

Giggles. I appreciate your humility, and read your disclaimer these years later at the end; "I am not especially impressed by them."

However, I do not see them as "practical steps this stream of Christianity presents." I see them as bondage. This is my take on these quotes...BT

"The holier the confessor, the gentler he is, and the less he is scandalized at other people's faults, because he understands man's weak condition better." (page 37]...

This is New Age double talk. The holier the confessor? The Bible says that our righteousness is as filthy rags, and at our best we are unprofitable servants....Bt

"It is important to note that authentic meetings with God produce personal goodness, even heroic goodness that is far beyond human capacity. (page 41).

This, again, is just bad thinking. Authentic meetings with God DO NOT produce personal goodness. Paul met Him a few times, and proclaimed that there was nothing good in himself at all, and Solomon was given two visitations of the highest order, and yet committed evil "heroically"..BT

"Here we have the core of the economy of salvation: salvation effected by union, transformative participation in the divine nature, a beginning in faith of what shall be completed in vision; an eternal enthrallment in Father, Son, and Spirit; purest beauty, joy, and love." (page 64).

A beginning in faith of what shall be completed in vision? where is that in the gospel of Paul. More flowery, syrupy ideas about Nirvana, that contradict the simplicity of the Gospel in their complication and mystic conflict posing as deep revelation...BT

"-...many people unwittingly water down Scripture as they read it. They fail to notice or attend to the uncompromising totality that we read on every page. (page 108).

Implying that his devoted focus to the deeper meaning has unlocked the mystic depth of it all. No, it means what it says, and is simple, direct and clear. It is designed for the most simple, Trust and Obey.

"-...carrying the cross is a gift"...(page 126)

No it's not, it is a COMMAND...BT

"-Love is the measure of our ability to bear crosses. (page 127)

This is derived from the Catholic doctrine of extreme devotion gearing toward living the "Sacrificial Life". [ In this the rigors of the Monastic life are trumpeted, and it is here, and only here that the Priest Class emerges, as the WORTHY CLASS.

It implies that we are called to sacrifice, and the more sacrificial your life is, the more you will be accepted by God; the more sacrificial, the better. So, the more "crosses" you bear, as sacrifices, the more spiritual you become, and the more loving. THIS IS A LIE.

Love is a fruit that is grown by abiding in Christ.BT

"...If anyone is serious about loving God totally, he must willingly entertain no self-centered pursuit of finite things sought for themselves, that is, devoid of honest direction to God, our sole end and purpose."

This is at the Heart of the Ascetic lifestyle that again, requires the candidate pursue self denial through physical means; Whipping ones self, Spartan dress, early rising with minimal food, hoary clothing and so on.It is here, in the monasteries, that these works are taught as a means to gain God's favor. Another works based lie.BT


-'solid love is to be found not hidden away in corners but in dealing with others...in the midst of occasion of sin." (page 227)

No. Love is so much simpler and obvious than this. It is God's glory upon us, and causing that compassion and mercies to flow out to others...as in the Early church; BEHOLD, HOW THEY LOVE ONE ANOTHER!"..it is a fruit!..BT


S
sermonindex

Saints,

Again we are going to need to re-discover God's purpose for these forums. The main intent and design is to seek to grow in our walks with the Lord, be teachable and learn from others and serve others in this forum setting. Jesus said that to serve others is true "greatness" may we endeavour towards this.

Also towards the naming of individuals does have a place but we so easily can slander or malign a name of a brother for no reason and tie him into our discouragements with certain doctrines or teachers.

Mysticism is a very large topic and there are whole spectrums of what we could call good and bad in it. To say mysticism is flat our wrong can be interesting because even the simple experience of a christian praying is a mystical experience. Also A.W. Tozer and others were called mystics and looked down upon to seek God for Himself and not to get something from Him. Oh how we need a return to such praying that just honours God, seeks to Know Him more and does not come to Him with a large list of our to do's only. This is not dangerous praying but true praying. (John 17:3) to Know God is eternal life.

I have personally visited IHOP many times and though I disagree highly with some of the music methods they use and also their recent acceptance of some holy spirit manifestations that are extra-biblical, yet there is prayer happening there and I would say the danger is the latter not mystical extreme praying.

Their book library is excellent and they are selling some great books that other evangelical churches do not or "would not" have!

I would ask that we would rather on these forums discuss the issues more then the "people" for we can learn something from most men and if they have an extreme doctrine it is usually for a good reason and we can learn much from even their error.

Such a spirit will be one that grows in Christ and does not slander anyone and leaves all judgement to Jesus Christ in that day.

1 Corinthians 4:4-5 NIV

4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.


We are locking this thread and ask the saints to pray about this type of approach on the forums. There are 100's of sites that just post only articles that speak against doctrines, people, and practices. We do not want the forums on SermonIndex to be such.

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