Sinning to Meet Needs

Quite obviously God does NOT meet all our needs, despite Christian songs to the contrary. So, this got me thinking, when God fails to meet a man's needs, and the man then sins in order to meet that need on his own, why does God still find fault? Why does He still call it sin? I've been turning this question over and over in my mind trying to come to an answer. Does anyone know?

For example....

A woman enters into fornication to meet her need for intimacy, touch, and affection. She expected and asked God to meet it but He didn't. No one else is being hurt by what she and her boyfriend are doing.

A jobless man steals to meet his need for money to pay his bills, support his family. He expected God to meet his need for a job but yet he remained jobless. In this case, someone is probably being hurt by the man's theft, but not as much as the man doing the stealing, since he is much more poor than they.

Another man can't sleep because of terrible pain in his broken body, so he drinks himself into a stupor every night in order to both escape some of the pain, to relax, and to knock himself out if possible. Or perhaps he steals drugs or deals in street drugs in order to achieve this. He begged God to take away his pain, but He didn't. If the man lives alone, no one else is suffering because of his drunkenness.
If he has a family, then someone is being hurt by it. But again, God could have met his need for healing but chose not to.

There are probably many more such examples of valid needs and ways to meet them. The persons may or may not be Christians. If it makes a difference, let's pretend they are.

I've never heard any theology on this question. What say ye?

We need to define "need"... If need is what the "self" wants or wills God makes no promise to meet such needs, the needs he said he will meet are those that are good, as for the woman God may chose not to grant her her wish for intamacy for NOW because he knows it is His perfect plan she will get this maybe 2 years down the road. God also says he will meet our needs, but not always when we desire God to meet them, my own experience is God waits many times to the very last moment, often when i have given up and are completely broken and his answer breaks through as a warm sunray on a cloudy day.

Also we need to consider the men and women in Hebrews 11, that was sawn asunder etc. These men and women where just as full of faith as those that concured kingdoms and brought back people from the dead.

One person may get their needs and wants fulfilled, maybe get a God spuse, many children while others may long for this and God still reject them this "good" since he has a better plan.

Gods way is always the best, wheter it is with a loving family and spouse or alone and in pain and suffering.

When we come to the place where God can have our absolute surrender it will all be good, and we will learn to rejoice even when he denies us a "good" for his perfect best.

hope that makes some sense.

brother christian

more thoughts, especially in our day of age, when we have been so sheltered from Death and suffering, our entire society and life is constructed to shelter and protect us from this, i believe many medicines and doctors wisdom are a gift from the Lord. But i have a suspicion that we by our culture and worldview that has been imprinted in us from birth has made us shun suffering so much.

I remember one brother once said when asked a question, i do not remember the question exactly but the background was there was very little money, or none, and no food. And in the area they lived it was a poor one and many stole so if i dont remember totally wrong he was asked why he could not do this or that to make money, all suggestions implied transgressing Gods commands in one area or another.

and he replied "it is better to die hungry and please God then break Gods heart and live in prosperity" and should not this be our hearts? id rather die then fail Christ? was not Jesus heart in similar manner? how did Jesus trust God? and he died forsaken by God on a cross without ever having broken Gods law even once, how come we expect more then Christ?

These are things worthy of meditation, and deep subjects to speak about. I speak not as one that in any way has arrived but as one seeking to enter in.

Just some more thoughts... from brother C

I say AMEN to all the replies so far.

But I have one question to ask the original poster and this deals with pain.

Do you suppose the pain Jesus experienced upon the cross was any less then what one experiences in life? Did Jesus allow himself to be brought into a stupor to tolerant it?

Something I thought of when I read the OP...

Is it ok to lie?

I may hide Jews in a secret room in order to protect them and then lie to the authorities that I don't know what they are talking about.

Is it righteous to lie to prevent a horrible atrocity?

Pilgrim

Trekker:

17Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account.

18But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.

19But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

These verses are speaking, in context, of the financial or material needs of the church at Philippi. But there is a further application that financial needs are not under a different system than any other need.

However, we must receive from God based on faith. Look up all the times that the scriptures speak of receiving from God being "according to your faith". I believe a consequence of holding an extreme view of sovereignty can lead to believing that God simply did not supply a need. But the relationship is one of faith toward God that opens the door for our receiving what He has supplied.

The situations you described all demonstrate a lack of faith that God will meet the need and a turning to the flesh to supply the need. Each person has sought to meet the need through something other than God.

Granted there are times when God does not meet the need in the way we might like Him to do so. There are things we do not understand. But in the specific examples you gave I see a lack of faith and perseverance and a turning to self to satisfy the need.

We cannot eliminate the element of faith in receiving from God. And, yes, I do believe it makes a difference whether a person is a child of God or not.

As to the question of lying to hide Jews. The commandment says, "Thou shalt not bear false witness." The context of the commandment is not exactly "Thou shalt not speak words that are untrue in any situation." I have personally struggled with this question as well. I see only two options. Believe God to get you out of it or protect the person in question. A similar example might be "thou shalt not commit murder." This is not the same as "don't use deadly force to protect your family."

But are we really asking the wrong question? We enter a realm of doing what the Pharisees did in the Talmud by debating exactly what it means to bear false witness and how we can keep or break the law. We enter into the letter of the law. Should we not rather walk in the spirit led by the Holy Spirit and seek to be led of the Lord as He has written His law in our hearts? I am not trying to argue a point with the last two paragraphs, but rather further the question as I am still not totally settled on the matter myself.

Perhaps it comes down to faith as well?

Trekker,

These are not needs. There is a world of difference between need and desire. Everything you've listed is desire and James addresses this when he wrote that we are lead away by our desires.

Jeff wrote:Different than fornicating to fulfill personal lustful desire, getting drunk to numb pain, etc. if smuggling Bibles into china or Myanmar and asked at airport security if I have illegal Bibles, I may say "no". That fits your example. Far different than committing fornication, getting drunk on wine not filled with the Spirir, stealing from another, etc. far different

___________

I think this is a valid point. When I first read the original post, I thought, the difference between what my flesh may see as "need" and the LORD knows is a need does matter. In my flesh I may not feel the LORD responding to a prayer soon enough so I might react and in doing so I fall into sin. In each of the examples given the person does not seem to wait on the LORD but behave as "lord" of their own life making decisions for self based on what they determine is a "need"

I think the topic is an interesting one but would discuss using the other examples given by some of the other posters :)

God Bless
mj

Twayneb wrote:But are we really asking the wrong question? We enter a realm of doing what the Pharisees did in the Talmud by debating exactly what it means to bear false witness and how we can keep or break the law. We enter into the letter of the law. Should we not rather walk in the spirit led by the Holy Spirit and seek to be led of the Lord as He has written His law in our hearts? I am not trying to argue a point with the last two paragraphs, but rather further the question as I am still not totally settled on the matter myself.

Perhaps it comes down to faith as well?
________________

I think it does come down to faith, at least that is what I am seeing in my own walk. Thank you for sharing the above paragraph it has given me some things to think on as I struggle with some of these questions as well :)

God bless
mj

Jesus was Man. He lived through His teens, twenties and to His thirties. . . His humanity WANTED to be with a woman.

I wonder where we'd be if He'd met His need for female company with a secret Ronda on the side as He preached 'love not this world.'

Just because I have a legitimate need and no legitimate way of fulfilling it, I'm then justified to sin.. . errr. .. not so much.

QUOTE: " God ALWAYS meets our needs as true believers in Christ Jesus. Numerous scriptures to support this fact. One question is, what do WE define as need and what does God know as a need vs a desire? A girl commits fornication because she NEEDS to? Doesn't sound like she's trusting God for His timing in a husband!!"==JEFFMAR

Jeffmar, that is simply NOT true, and i and others are living proof. Also, the examples i provided were at least partially based on actual people and circumstances that i know about. The woman never in all her days did get a husband which she prayed for. I never said she committed fornication because she needed to, i said she committed fornication to meet the need for intimacy, touch and affection (a need many men perhaps don't understand because they are motivated more by lust when they fornicate, whereas women tend to be more motivated by neediness or lonliness, etc...don't argue with me about this fact, i'm not saying there are not exceptions or that lust can't later enter in)

You all KNOW what a NEED is. A need is not a cookie or dessert, it is not a want. A need is water and oxygen.

Another example that comes to mind is a real life Christian US Marine who came back from Iraq/Afghanistan and had such severe PTSD that he could hardly function. I forget his name but it made national headlines a few years ago and made me cry. He was SO traumatized and had such severe flashbacks he had constant nightmares and even paranoid delusions and posed a danger to even his own family. He tried God, he tried prayer, to no avail. He tried psychiatry/witch doctors. Tormented 24/7 he resorted to huffing. His chronic screaming, violent nightmares destroyed his relationship with his wife...she couldnt sleep,feel safe around him, etc. His friends/fellow soldiers did everything the knew to try to comfort, encourage, and save him. Finally, unable to take no more, he committed suicide. This man had a NEED. Don't insanely pretend it was just a "desire" or a "want". You KNOW what a NEED is. And didn't God promise he would never give us more than we could handle?

An attack on God? Certainly not consciously. Whether or not spiritual forces posed the question to my mind i don't know but i need an answer so please try and please do so without sniping at me please. It is a question i am struggling with.

QUOTE: "What if the 3 Hebrew boys in the fire used your logic? They said, "Our God is able to deliver us, BUT EVEN IF HE DOESN'T, we may burn, but we will never bow!" that's the heart of one who truly understands total human depravity, God's amazing grace and will, & the call to "take up your cross, deny yourself, & follow" Christ!!"==JEFFMAR

Now this is a better answer. However, then i'm thinking, 'Yea but those men were suffering for their testimony, for their service to God, so that's a bit different...i'm just talking about every day needs...' However, it did make me think of Job...just trying to think if anything he suffered could have been considered a need....

QUOTE: "Is it ok to lie? I may hide Jews in a secret room in order to protect them and then lie to the authorities that I don't know what they are talking about. Is it righteous to lie to prevent a horrible atrocity?"==PILGRIM777

I don't know. Great question, although nothing to do with this post. I know that Corrie tenBoom's sister refused to lie when the Nazis came to the house demanding to know if there were any Jews hidden there. She openly told the Nazis they were hiding Jews and where they were. Can't recall what happened after that but eventually she and Corrie's father wound up in concentration camp and died of disease and starvation. (Well hey! There would be another unmet need! The need for food in a concentration camp.)

QUOTE: "19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus."==TWAYNEB

Thank you for providing this scripture Twayneb. Please explain to me how, in the light of this PROMISE, you would explain the starvation of Corrie tenBoom's Christian sister and father in the concentration camps. I really need to know the answer to this issue. Thank you.

QUOTE: "Isaiah makes it clear. Our prayers are not heard because of what? INIQUITY"==EPHAH

So then what was the sin of Corrie tenBoom's sister and father that God let them die of starvation under the Nazis?
If our prayers are not answered because of our sins, woe to us all!! Who is sinless among you??? I guess we should all leave off praying then....

God calls sinning to meet ones own needs a sin. It's quite simple really. God definitely meets all our needs, once you understand this you will see the error of your ways.

He met all of our needs on the Cross when He paid for our sins. What more do we need other than Christ's sacrifice for our sin? You call intimacy and touch a need, yet in the same thread water too. Throw any examples down and you can come back to the simple answer that all our needs were met on the Cross!

If everything in the world disappeared today except for Christ and the Cross, what you are saying is your needs would not be met. You would still be demanding more and more. This thread is speaking wrongly against my great and awesome God! We could have brought Him more glory brothers and sisters if this thread never came to be, think about it.

QUOTE: "Note that this mans problem was a result of his poor choice to volunteer for the US army."==JIMDIED2SIN

Woooooooeeeeee. That doesn't fly, Brother. There were plenty of WWI and WWII and Vietnam vets who were DRAFTED and suffered the same or similar fate. Besides, God/Jesus allows for war and soldiers in His Word. He gave commandment in the NT about soldiers and he also allowed David to wage war under the OT.

QUOTE: " Yet I guess the real question is where are the christians full of the Holy Ghost who can impart the power of God into this mans life to set him free from his demons?

That is the more important question for all of us. That is the one that might keep me up tonight."==JIMDIED2IN

Good point! Wish i knew.

QUOTE: "If He chose that I would one day be chosen to suffer or even die for Him, I'd still know that He always gave me all I needed. I've been to prison with nothing in the world's eyes, but God's presence was so strong there with me & I had His Word, so I knew I really had ALL I NEEDED!!!"==JEFFMAR

This may be the best answer i've "heard" here. I have a lot of respect for you Jeffmar, so i am apt to listen. : P
But what of the person who is suffering the aforementioned needs but didn't have or experience God's presence as you did? I guess God would give them more grace than if a Christian who had His presence went off into sin? Hmm.

Well, some of this question comes from my anguish and grief over so many people going to Hell. I guess that is where it initially originated.

QUOTE: ""Besides, God/Jesus allows for war and soldiers in His Word. He gave commandment in the NT about soldiers and he also allowed David to wage war under the OT. "

Again, I guess it depends if you are saying this man is a professing christian or not.."==JIMDIED2SIN

How so?? But yes, i did say he was a professing Christian. As i recall he was baptized and everything as well. It MIGHT even have been the case that he BECAME a Christian AFTER returning home, WHILE he was suffering from PTSD but i cant recall for certain. Wish i could remember his name because the whole news story would be online somewhere. It was just gut-wrenching and really upset me.

QUOTE: "Which scriptures in the NT show that "God/Jesus allow for soldiers and war"? Just curious."==JEFFMAR

I can't find the exact scripture i am thinking of but a search of blueletterbible.org brought up numerous references to soldier(s) and no where in the OT or NT is being a soldier ever condemned as far as i can tell. I think the verse i am thinking of was in the same book or chapter where Paul talked about how to behave towards our bosses, as servants, etc. Can't recall if that was book of Tim. or another...memory problems today...

QUOTE: "Ah gee, this is a tricky one. You know this did happen in bible times. Remember Tamar? She had already two of Judah's sons and both had died and he promised her his youngest boy when he came of age and Judah had forgotten about the arrangement. So Tamar disguises herself as a harlot and..."==APPROVED

Oh yea! Don't know if SHE ever prayed first though. But the story showed Judah's hypocrisy and is highly representative of the double standard that men even today have. Men always condemn and despise hookers and prostitutes yet they go out and seek them!! And they buy porn! That is hypocrisy.

QUOTE: "I would like to see a show of hands from anyone here claiming they have NOT sinned in meeting a basic personal need!"==OLDJOE

Well said OJ. Well said.

Aha! I found the name of the soldier!!! It was
JOSEPH DWYER!! I may forget names but i cannot forget the story of it. It made headlines at cnn.com on July 20, 2008. He was 31 and had gone in the service as a medic. Raised Roman Catholic, he and a fellow soldier were baptized together at Scotsdale Baptist Church in El Paso, TX, in 2004.
He also began pouring over the Bible after he returned home from Iraq. The witchdocs put him on over 12 different psychiatric drugs yet none of their witches brews helped one iota (just want to make sure to point that out to any secular humanistas who may be reading this...)

QUOTE FROM YAHOO.COM:

Like most of our young soldiers Joseph Dwyer knew he had to enlist after September 11. The only thing he could think about was what he could do to help protect our country. So many soldiers give up everything they care about in life to serve for our country. What does our government do to protect our soldiers? They press our soldiers to the limits and then give up on them.

"Simply trusting Thee, Lord Jesus,
I behold Thee as Thou art,
And Thy love, so pure, so changeless,
Satisfies my heart;
Satisfies its deepest longings,
Meets, supplies its every need,
Compasseth me round with blessings:
Thine is love indeed!"

http://matthewsmith.bandcamp.com/track/jesus-i-am-resting

Jeffmar, the scriptures about soldiers are irrelevant. The question is NOT about whether it is biblical to be a soldier today or not (I absolutely believe it is, although not all war is justified). I believe that God Himself brought the USA into WWII, using the Japanese&Pearl Harbor to do it, in order to bring an end to both the war and the atrocities against the Jews. No one can tell me that it is wrong to be a soldier or for a country to go to war when necessary. We would not even have this free nation today if not for war. And 9/11 was an act of war against this nation that fully justified going to war initially. But again, the original question has nothing to do with this issue.

QUOTE: "I would then like to see this question coupled with another question asking whether or not they still feel that this was the best way to meet this "need", and if they're proud of their choice."==EVERESTOSAMA

Another wise answer! Wow. That would hit anyone between the eyes, if saved. You are SO RIGHT. Looking back i can say that the sins i committed decades ago in an effort to meet my needs turned out to be to my detriment and great regret. You got me against a wall Everestosama.

But Everestosama, i believe the sermon on the mount was meant to be taken on an individual basis; it is for individuals. God still makes allowances for capital punishment for crimes against humanity, murder, child predators, etc does he not? The sermon on the mount, in my understanding, was meant to teach us how we are to respond as individuals to other individuals, not as countries to countries or as state/government to criminals. Now, that said, i do not defend every act of war either. I can't say the Vietnam war was justified (maybe that is why God let us lose it!) nor can i say that dropping nuclear bombs on Japanese cities was justified. Also, it is quite likely that the wars we are presently embroiled in are just a small part of the judgment of God upon this nation; He brought it upon us.

Trekker,

I'm not sure if your serious about your initial post or if your trying to make a point with some shock value but I'll assume that you are serious.

Where I think you are tripping up is that you assume that a desire is a need. God gives me everything I need to be like Christ not every thing I think I need or have an appetite for. If food, relationships, comforts,...etc. are withheld from me it's for my good even if it brings me to death. Christ is my need and no good thing has he ever withheld from me even the good things he has delivered to me through pain.

Trekker,

You will find on SI a series written by the late Pastorfrin dealing with this issue. He was a veteran as well and suffered from post-traumatic stress-syndrome. He shares in that thread how he suffered and his eventual recovery. The title is "Let's Talk About Peace." The thread is very long but can be found if you google it.

ginnyrose

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
QUOTE:
if smuggling Bibles into china or Myanmar and asked at airport security if I have illegal Bibles, I may say "no"
____________________________________________________________

Years ago I have heard the testimony given by the late Pastor David Bontrager about his activities smuggling Bibles behind the Iron Curtain.

Opposition to this activity by ignorant Christians was that they perceived the only way one could carry Bibles to and behind the iron curtain was to lie about their possession of them.

Anyhow....he said emphatically they never lied to any authorities about whether they had Bibles on them. He has shared incidents how angels would accompany them through checkpoints...

Were the authorities aware of his work? It seems so...his grandson told me how his grandparents hosted a stranger one time. The fellow was strange and after a few weeks disappeared...the suspicion was that he was an agent of a foreign government. The foreign gov also complained about the Bibles getting inside their country - they were powerless to stop it - they failed to understand there was a supernatural power aiding this distribution.

To suggest one has to lie in order to do this work is false, not true...not saying it never happened, but taking the word of a godly man is more credible, I think. BTW, I personally knew this man. He lived in the community where I grew up, went to school with his children....

______________________________________________________________
QUOTE:
She openly told the Nazis they were hiding Jews and where they were. Can't recall what happened
______________________________________________________________

The nephew told the soldiers the people were under the table. They lifted the tablecloth, saw no one and got angry and stomped out! As I recall, the boy went into hysterical laughter and the soldiers felt foolish. But the boy was telling the truth. There was a hiding place under the floor with a trap-door and this is where these people were. This family covered it with a carpet so it was not visible to the soldiers.

Another story....

This happened in a Muslim country...Bibles were also being smuggled in. The police raided a house to confiscate them. There was a stack of them in the middle of the room in clear view but they never saw them.

With such a powerful God, how can man be so faithless?

JEFFMAR & EVERESTOSAMA,

You make some good points. I must say i have never really heard such talk before (about war, soldiers in NT times). As for looking up scriptures...

The scripture i was referring to earlier i have now found; it is LUKE 3:14:

3:14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse [any] falsely; and be content with your c wages.

I read thru several commentaries on this verse. Most had nothing to say, but two said that the "violence" referred to has to do with soldiers using their position to intimidate and extort money from people. Certainly it cannot refer to the violence of war, since Jesus tells them to be content with their wages and if He were telling them to never go to war then why would He expect them to continue to stay and keep collecting a wage??

I also searched the NT and have never found a single verse forbidding either war or being a soldier. It is neither encouraged nor condemned.

Thank you for providing this scripture Twayneb. Please explain to me how, in the light of this PROMISE, you would explain the starvation of Corrie tenBoom's Christian sister and father in the concentration camps. I really need to know the answer to this issue. Thank you.

trekker

I knew a man once who really had it pretty good. He had a wife, a good job, a house in the country, loving and wonderful children. Yet he became convinced that God was not meeting his needs. He pointed to debt and financial things that he could not afford but that others enjoyed. This consumed him. He eventually walked away from the Lord, his family, his church, etc. As a result his children suffered, one of them being in and out of jail, doing drugs, etc. But he was focused on the temporal, the fleshly part of life.

Recall Hebrews 11. Some people through their faith in the Lord stopped the mouths of lions, passed unharmed through fire, etc. Others refused to accept deliverance and were tortured and killed for the cause of the gospel. Paul himself reached a point of martyrdom for the gospel. We might say, "God did not meet their needs", if we were to focus on the flesh. But really this body in its current form is a temporary dwelling place. To die physically is not to die spiritually. I have noticed that many who were martyred have been given a supernatural grace to die in that hour. Often they have apparently felt no pain and have stood boldly as they departed their bodies. I have prayed that if I am ever in that situation that I would be given the same grace. But if not these light afflictions are for but a moment.

Paul said he know how to be abased and how to abound. He was talking about a financial status. At times he could barely eat and at other times had finances abundantly. But in all of these states God was supplying all of his needs. Even in imprisonment and death God was supplying all of his needs.

You see life is more than food and the body more than what we wear. We cannot be too focused on that which is of the flesh.

I know this might sound like I am trying to be a broken record, but I think it bears mentioning.

1. The promise of God to supply all of our needs is given to believers. Those who are not born again are living under the curse of sin.

2. The promise of God to supply all of our needs does not negate the fact that we live in a fallen world and have an enemy that fights against us.

3. The promise of God to supply all of our needs is dependent, as all are things we receive from God, on faith.

4. The promise of God to supply all of our needs does not always apply to what we, in our own flesh, perceive to be a need.

Hope that helps. Trekker, spend a great amount of time right now focusing on the truth of the Word of God and not on trying to reason out the justice of circumstance with your own mind. It sounds to me like there is a real struggle right now. God is faithful. Remember, you and I cannot trust our own ability to reason, but we can trust God's word totally.

The BIble says, there is a time for war, that is why Peter carried a sword in the first place. War is necessary in a fallen world, that has not changed throughout time, and to live under the freedoms that war has bought for us makes us all debtors to the men who paid with their own blood.

I thought Peter carried a sword so that Jesus could be "reckoned with the transgressors".

Luke 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
Luke 22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here [are] two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Because, obviously 2 swords is NOT ENOUGH for what they were about to encounter. Two swords were enough to "be reckoned with the transgressors", though, but of little value to fight the company of men that were coming to arrest Jesus.

I love how people use this verse to justify taking up arms and fighting. That's a pretty insidious doctrine. You could have Christians in the South fighting Christians in the North (Civil) if you propagate such a doctrine. You could have British Christians slaughtering American Christians, German Christians slaughtering American Christians, Danish Christians, French Christians...wait...all those things did happen. All because of the "just war" doctrine from Augustine and the Roman Catholics.

Protestants did not "come out of her" far enough.

Once again, all I can say is if true believers did not fight in wars, the world would find plenty of its own to fight it's battles. But Christians identify with the world (as it's home) so much, that they are literally involved with the world in almost everything (politics, wars, etc).

We need deliverance from "leaders" that are dead to their Saviour.

Pilgrim

You may want to read "Vanya" or "Tortured for Christ".

You will see that there are some Christians that have had everything stripped away from them except Jesus Christ.

And the scripture still remains true,

Ps 37:25 I have been young, and [now] am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.

After all, He is the Bread of Life. So, God really does not ever forsake anyone. The Bread of Life will be with you, even until the end.

For those that remain IN CHRIST they know that it is not always about our own earthly pleasures and the happy "yappy" derivative of Christianity that has drawn so much attention in recent decades.

Pilgrim

Somehow, I sense a real ignorance in the original questions of the reality of God in everyday living .

May I suggest a couple things?

1. Get your Bible, and start reading from Genesis and go through till you get to the end, which is Revelation. Read as though your life depends on it because it really does. As you read be sensitive to what the Holy Spirit is showing you - do not read it with a defensive mind...

2. Read the testimonies of saints who endured severe trials. Here are a few suggestions: Corrie ten Boom - many books penned by her; "God's Smuggler" by Brother Andrew; "Evidence Not Seen" by Darlene Deibler Rose. There is a biggie, "Martyr's Mirror", a collection of testimonies of martyrs that goes back a long time.

As you read the OT and NT, the history of God's people, you will find they were human like the rest of us. The Chronicles inform us more about the spiritual state of the Israelites which makes for an inspiration read. For more details about the civil end of life, read it with the Kings. However, before you start on this reading project read Hebrews 11 - this will teach you, answer your questions as you go along.

You will be blessed if you study with an open mind...if you have a heart that is given to doubt this still may not help...

ginnyrose

I know it is foreign to us, but any book on persecution and having everything taken (material things and loved ones) away from you, is profitable.

Martyr's Mirror is online.

http://www.homecomers.org/mirror/

Pilgrim

Thanks for the link Pilgrim. I look forward to reading it.

War happens because basic necessities like food become in short supply...

Are you certain?

Rwanda/Uganda
Yugoslavia
Bosnia
Cambodia
Balkins
Iraq/Iran
Iraq (Desert Storm)
Afganistan (Soviet)
Vietnam
WWII
WWI
Korean War

ect...

"War and Grace".

That is an oxymoron if I ever heard of one. Your fleshly reasoning is based on man's view of morality and not the Righteousness of Christ.

Man's Moral views and the Righteousness of God in Christ are universes apart.

Roman soldiers (you can find stories in the first chapters of Martyrs Mirror) who became Christians were tortured and killed because they would not fight anymore and especially would not kill their fellow Christians.

Will you kill you fellow brothers and sisters in foreign armies?

Even John the Baptist, (before the New Covenant was signed in Christ's blood) says,

Luke 3:14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse [any] falsely; and be content with your wages.

Do violence to no man!

If John the Baptist says that, what do you think Christ says?

Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

As a people we really have forsaken the words of Christ, today and replaced them with our own "moral reasoning".

Pilgrim

"Initially more popular with the poor and underprivileged, Christianity was slow to enter the ranks of the Roman army. The New Testament of the Bible mentions several occasions were Roman soldiers were convinced by Jesus. For instance, Matthew 8:5 tells of a Roman centurion embracing the new faith. In following years, there would be Christians found in the Roman army. however, the number was very small. The army placed a strong emphasis on pagan ritual, something quite distastefull to devout Christians. A Christian would have very little reason to join the ranks of an establishment so often employed in the persecution of his fellows, and there would have been great pressure discouraging exisiting soldiers from taking up the religion."
http://www.redrampant.com/2009/06/christianity-in-roman-army.html

"Saint George
George was a Roman soldier and rose to the rank of tribune in the Roman army. He converted to Christianity, confessed his faith and sentenced to torture followed by death by beheading. "
http://www.roman-colosseum.info/roman-empire/christian-persecution.htm

"A saint named Hippolytus was martyred in Rome in the third century. He was a soldier who participated in the torture execution of St. Lawrence but converted as a result of that saint's example. He was then sentenced to be torn apart by horses."

"There are few saints who exerted such a powerful hold over the artistic imagination of fifteenth-, sixteenth-, and seventeenth-century Europe as St. Sebastian. He was an officer of the Imperial Roman army, and captain of the guard under the emperor Diocletian in 3rd century AD. During Diocletian's persecution of the Christians, Sebastian comforted Christian prisoners and used his position to convert soldiers and a governor to Christianity. Discovering his betrayal, Diocletian ordered Sebastian to be shot by archers. He survived, recovered, and returned to preach to Diocletian, who had him beaten to death. He died a martyr in Rome, c 288 AD.

Because Sebastian was thought to have been killed by the arrows, and yet was not, and then later was killed by the same emperor who ordered him shot, he is sometimes known as the saint who was "martyred twice."

40 Brave Soldiers for Christ
http://www.saltandlightgroup.com/pdfs/Freedom_40_Brave_Soldiers.pdf

There are many more stories if you care to search for them.

Because the Lord's blood was spilled, there is now, no reason for anyone who loves Him to spill anyone else's blood. We have passed from death to life.

Pilgrim

OLDJOE, well said. I agree with you. There is SOME very subtle self-righteousness on here it is beginning to look like. People like to cry out against war and against violence until the day comes when they have to defend their own. If someone broke into one of these people's homes and proceeded to rape their children they cannot tell me they would stand idle by. They would do all they could to stop them, not sit on their hands.

********SCRIPTURE ON SOLDIERS FOUND*********

The scripture i was referring to earlier i have now found; it is LUKE 3:14:

3:14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse [any] falsely; and be content with your c wages.

I read thru several commentaries on this verse. Most had nothing to say, but two said that the "violence" referred to has to do with soldiers using their position to intimidate and extort money from people. (NOW DON'T GO GIVING ME A SERMON ABOUT COMMENTARIES & SCRIBES; I'M NOT SAYING THEY HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS, I'M JUST PROVIDING ONE VIEW/HELP)

Certainly it CANNOT refer to the violence of war, since Jesus tells them to be content with their wages and if He were telling them to never go to war then why would He expect them to continue to stay and keep collecting a wage???

I also searched the NT and have never found a single verse forbidding either war or being a soldier. It is neither encouraged nor condemned.

In my opinion, some things ARE worth fighting for. The fight against evil is one.

QUOTE: ""He that killeth with the sword must be killed with a sword." IF this must be done, the Christian cannot be above the duty because he thinks he will get his hands dirty. His hands are already dirty when he participates in the freedoms purchased by the blood of another. Because you don't fire the gun it doesn't make you any less culpable in war if you live off the spoils."==OLDJOE

AMEN! A THOUSAND TIMES AMEN. Joe you have some real wisdom here. I sure would be proud to know you.

Trekker, before you read the commentaries, what did the Holy Spirit tell you? What do you think about Christians from two countries being in the armies of their respective countries going to war with against other?

Situational ethics is a slippery slope. Where does your self-justification for violence and war and vengeance end? With your view there are many NT scriptures that no longer mean anything. Would you like me to list them? Better to walk as He walked. How did He walk? Was He a lamb led to the slaughter? Are we? Did Paul think we were?

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Live in fear or trust God. Stop the lip service and start believing with your whole heart.

Pilgrim

PILGRIM777,

I have a peace in my heart about people belonging to military service, in answer to your question about what the Holy Spirit is telling me. Does that mean i have a peace about war? No one ever has peace about war, cuz war is ALWAYS ugly and always a last resort.

As to many scriptures supposedly being negated by my position...i disagree. You really havent provided any proof of that, and as i said earlier the Sermon on the Mount was referring to how individuals should treat individuals, not how the government should.

And you have completely ignored what i wrote in my previous post Pilgrim. You have simply danced around it, ignoring LUKE 3: 14 and what i said there. Ignore that verse and you are ignoring Jesus. He allowed for wages for soldiers so it follows that He allows for soldiers. What do soldiers do? Soldiers wage war against enemies of the state, soldiers kill.

Trekker,

Regarding Luke 3:14, no problem.

"Do violence to no man", evidently means something different to you than it does to me.

Now, I will start another thread about War and the Christian's Attitude To It, so that we can give back this thread to the ones that want to talk about the original OP.

I am not going to get into the area of whether someone is a brother or not. I just want to look at the Christian perspective to war according to the NT. Not the OT, Joe.

Pilgrim

I will not pick up the sword. I don't remember Jesus picking up the sword. In fact, I remember reading about Him not responding to those who were killing Him, besides praying for them and asking Father to forgive them, for they know not what they do...

When He comes back, I know that He will have a two-edged sword, but something about it makes me think that it will not be made out of steal.

Joe, I will actually share some OT scriptures on War.

But, we need to take a look at the New Covenant and the New Man and Jesus Christ.

I can take the OT and justify about anything. Anyway, I think it will be a good study. I don't want it to be a litmus test of who is a brother or who is not. You will see that the view of war has changed through the centuries with the Church.

Many of early church fathers indicated that Christians should not participate in war and there is no record of Christians participating in military prior to 174 A.D. Until 323 A.D. almost all Christian literature repudiates involvement in military service and war. Some military service was allowed for non-combative roles. And I thought this was interesting that some soldiers were excluded from participation in the Lord's Supper until they had confessed of their sin of shedding blood.

But we also see some acceptance of involvement in war as Tertullian (197 A.D.) reported many Christians in the Roman army and Clement of Alexandria (150-215 A.D.) indicated a soldier should "abide in that calling wherein he was called" (I Cor. 7:24).

I abided in my calling when I was in the military. I was saved in the military but then respectfully refused to carry a gun. I did not know what would happen when I refused but felt led in this way. Rather than punish me, my commanding officer made me his personal chauffeur. I trusted God and He protected me. on the other hand, another soldier I led to the Lord, had the conviction shortly after he was saved to leave the military on conscientious objector grounds. I had no problem with this at all. I felt led to finish my tour. I thought it was a great mission field and had the grace to stay. My friend John, felt he had to leave. I know there is great liberty in the Lord and we each have our relationship with Him.

My struggle is whether there this great liberty in the Lord that includes carrying arms and killing others (who may even be born-again Christians).

Continuiing on, after Constantine (323 A.D.) objection to involvement in war declined. Ambrose (339-397) said that "one who does not defend another from injury is as much at fault as the perpetrator." Augustine(354-430) said "A war can be just when appointed by God, because it repulses wanton attack and seeks restoration of peace".

And then we have Thomas Aquinas (1224-1274) stipulating that there are 3 criteria for just war: 1) waged by legitimate governmental authority, 2) against an enemy who deserves punishment for wrongdoing and 3) with the motivation that good should prevail and evil be removed.

So, we will begin with the history of the church. There have always been two sides and it is an interesting study. In the end, a believer has to come to his own conviction and I understand this. But, there is nothing wrong with sharing what you believe as you see it from scriptures. I look forward to seeing what your view from the scriptures is. I hope it is a peaceful and reasonable discussion that causes both sides to reflect.

I look forward to the conversation.

Pilgrim

QUOTE: "And I thought this was interesting that some soldiers were excluded from participation in the Lord's Supper until they had confessed of their sin of shedding blood."==PILGRIM777

That sounds very Catholic. Catholics are all about confession. What is the use of confessing something if you are only gonna go do it again anyway?

A lot of writers, so-called scholars, and media like to call Catholics "Christians". It's just not so.

QUOTE: "So, we will begin with the history of the church. There have always been two sides and it is an interesting study. In the end, a believer has to come to his own conviction and I understand this. But, there is nothing wrong with sharing what you believe as you see it from scriptures. I look forward to seeing what your view from the scriptures is. I hope it is a peaceful and reasonable discussion that causes both sides to reflect."==PILGRIM777

Yes, i want to make it clear that i feel no animosity towards you or the other posters who disagree with me about whether people should go to war or not. Sometimes issues are so hard we just have to agree to disagree. This is just a discussion, and you are where you are at and i am where i am at; Neither of us is better than the other, we just are at where we are at. Either one of us may be wrong. We may even both be right to some extent. But i feel no malice or disdain towards you for your views.

Maybe you could all agree to disagree and quit conversing in unprofitable conversation.

Blessings to all...from brother rbanks

QUOTE: "No work that needs to be done either to preserve or restore civil order is beneath the Christian. Up to and including the administration of the death penalty. Normally objectors to war are in opposition to the death penalty as well, so our difference will actually lie in that area.....
BTW if in war I shot another believer and he shot me at the same time, we would meet shortly thereafter and rejoice that each were delivered from this place to the next."==OLDJOE

Yes, this is the way i view it too. I mean, if war (basically law enforcement on the national level when you really be honest about it, like in the fight against terrorists right now) is wrong then all law enforcement which involves any kind of shooting of a criminal at the state or local level is wrong then too. God gave the government the right to wield the sword and says so right in his Word...the NT.

As for killing another Christian, well good luck finding one! They are so rare that it is highly unlikely. But in the rare case that may occur---such as maybe it occurred during the American Civil War---yes it is very sad but we all must die sometime, someway and God is the one who decides the how and when. I know a Christian family who basically "killed" their own daughter by refusing to take her to the doctor because they believed that the prayer of faith in God's healing would save her. Does that mean we should cease all prayer as well?

God meeting our needs is also a matter of timing. We are usually not willing to wait.

His grace is able to get us through the hardships he allows to shape us into His image.

He is after an eternal product and is willing to allow temporary suffering to get it, but we have Him...can we say that He is not enough?

It is never true that one person's sin has no effect on another. If I hurt my finger my whole body will be effected because of the pain as well as the lack of production caused by it. In the same way when a brother sins that darkness and Satanic activity, that blown out candle and absence of prayer and witness will impact everyone in their life....(even decades later because of the scars left on the soul.)

In your examples: I know what it is like to be alone for years. The God given way to meet the physical needs of touch is the family of God..There are plenty of clean and godly hugs and appropriate touches to fulfill those needs. It is a travesty to think fornication is okay.

We should take God at His word and trust in a radical way that Matthew 6 is reliable. Don't steal. He will provide. At the end of testing of faith you will have what is needed, even if its something like locust and honey.

I know a woman who when her spinal problem flares up stays in bed for weeks in such intense pain it can pnly be tolerated because of the presence of God. That is how she tolerates the pain. She loves Him and will not hurt Him by turning to sin to help herself. She also trusts Him and runs to His bosom in her agony.

We should rather die trusting Him than hurt with our sin and lack of trust the One who was crushed for us.