A Christian's Attitude Towards War

There was a discussion at this link:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=44472&forum=36

It started out about God not meeting all of our needs. One of the "Rabbit Trails" I suppose was mine and it was regarding WAR and the Christian's attitude towards it. So, I thought I would rescue the original OP and start a new thread that I hope is instructive to all those that have questions concerning this topic.

Old_Joe's last post to me and my response to him.

By the way, I encourage Jimdiedtosin and Jeffmar (and anyone else) to copy their last posts to this thread, too.

OK Pilgrim, and I appreciate your stance and the reasons for it. Don't forget that honourable men died to allow you to make that stance.

Joe, the Lord tells me to "honor all men" (1 Pet 2:17), period!

And I certainly don't denigrate any man's sacrifice. But the sacrifice that means more to me is Jesus Christ's. I don't owe anything to any man, but I do owe everything to the Lord. I am not a debtor of any man.

Had they not done so you could just as well been goose-stepping as objecting for conscience sake.

I suppose that is the prevailing human wisdom that is always brought up, but we don't really know what would have happened, do we Joe?

Numbers 32:6 And Moses said unto the children of Gad and to the children of Reuben, Shall your brethren go to war, and shall ye sit here?

Joe, I could quote a scripture that is directly the opposite of that one. Back then, God was trying to preserve a nation in order to bring forth the Messiah. All nations surrounding Israel were enraged and whipped up by Satan to wipe out Israel. Today, the Messiah has come and the weapons of our warfare are no longer carnal.

No work that needs to be done either to preserve or restore civil order is beneath the Christian. Up to and including the administration of the death penalty. Normally objectors to war are in opposition to the death penalty as well, so our difference will actually lie in that area.

One thing I guess you don't realize is that I am not a pacifist and either was Jesus. Jesus taught non-resistance, not pacifism. I have no problem respecting civil authorities. I am not anti-war or anti-gun or anti-death penalty like the pacifists are. They express their beliefs by protests, sit-ins, work stoppages, etc. Jesus did not teach that. I own firearms and hunt, I just don't hunt men. I have no problem whatsoever with the civil authorities that were placed their by God. I don't like war, but I know why wars are fought.

The various causes of "war" are selfish, covetous, greedy desire for gain, defensive fear of injury or loss, pursuit of glory, reputation, pride, ambition, desire for power, dominion, supremacy, passions of hatred, bigotry, revenge, extermination, and religious zeal, ideological quests.

BTW if in war I shot another believer and he shot me at the same time, we would meet shortly thereafter and rejoice that each were delivered from this place to the next. The Christian doesn't lose by dying, he wins! HOWEVER the unbeliever when faced with his own mortality must decide as Ribbentrop and several others did whether they want to continue in that state or be saved.

"The Christian doesn't lose by dying."

That is true Joe and that is my point. But the how are you so sure the Christian doesn't lose by killing?

Your statement reminds me of the Albigensian Crusade and a statement that has become quite famous.

In 1209, during the "Albigensian Crusade" against the Cathar heresy in Southern France, the forces of Orthodox Catholicism had been besieging the city of Beziers, defended by the Cathar heretics, for some time. Finally they breached the walls of the city and prepared to storm it. The commander of the crusade, Simon de Montfort, Earl of Leicester, pointed out that not everybody in the city was a heretic, some of them wer good Catholics, so how should they treat the inhabitants when they captured the city? A monk who was actually present at the siege recorded the answer of the Papal Legate to the Crusaders, Arnaud-Amaury, the Abbot of Citeaux, as "Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet." ("Kill them all. God will know his own." ) So the Crusaders followed his advice and killed everybody they could find in Beziers.

"Kill them all, let God sort them out"!

That is a philosophy that I don't think is taught in the NT. It comes from Rome.

Pilgrim

That is right, Jim. It is perpetuated as being "holy".

Pilgrim

there are many threads in the archives on this topic, one that has much to ponder is this one https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=15338&forum=35&9

Jesus died and rose again so that He could teach the nations to war no more.

Thanks Christian,

I will take a look at that link. I agree that all the threads need to be categorized. Anyway, would like to continue this conversation if the moderators don't mind.

Pilgrim

Just to catch everyone, I have brought over some responses from the other thread.

From JeffMar:

If I have any freedom, it's because God Soveriegnly elected to grant it to me (&/or any country). If its removed, then God decided to remove it for His reasons. Israel forgot that repeatedly and suffered greatly for it over and over. We are doing the same now in America and approaching the same type day of reckoning under God's Soveriegnty. America didn't/doesn't grant me my freedom. God has! Even the Declaration of Independence states that!!!

"God raises up one nation & puts down another". The "PROUD (show me where the word pride/proud is used 1 time in all scripture in a positive context) to be an American" crowd of "American Patriotic Nationalists" has forgotten. I'm thankful to be wherever the Lord has me for His purposes. God moved me out of Texas (where everyone is very proud to be a Texan), and he can move me to another country tomorrow if He wants to, for His plan/purposes if He wants to!
He has made it clear I'm not going anywhere from where I am now to carry out His will for my life. See, I'm not a citizen of this world anyway, nor are any of us called to be - were called to be "citizens of another world", "sojourners in a strange land just passing through". You wanta give your life for a "just war" cause? Be spiritual then in your understanding & go suffer and preach in an unreached restricted nation. If it cost you your life as a martyr (at the hands of unbelievers, not believers you were trying to kill), so be it. Now you REALLY died for what God would consider a "just war". That's what matters to me, not how some Catholic priests/bishops define "just war". Those guys burnt William Tyndale at the stake for trying to give people Gods Word for themselves!!! Who made them the experts?!?!?

From jimdied2sin:

" IF this must be done, the Christian cannot be above the duty because he thinks he will get his hands dirty. His hands are already dirty when he participates in the freedoms purchased by the blood of another. Because you don't fire the gun it doesn't make you any less culpable in war if you live off the spoils.
"

This is a devils lie from hell oldJoe. True beleivers freedom is purchased by the blood of Bible Jesus, not the soliders of american jesus. So thankful Bible Jesus saved me from idolatry and devotion to american jesus. -Jim

From jimdied2sin:
Re:
"Quite obviously God does NOT meet all our needs"

This thread started out with a lie straight from the pits of hell and has only gone down hill from there. Is it not written:

Luke 11:8 I tell you, though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his impudence he will rise and give him whatever he needs. And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

Phillipans 4:19 And my God will supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus. To our God and Father be glory forever and ever. Amen.

From Old_Joe:

Re:
OK Pilgrim, and I appreciate your stance and the reasons for it. Don't forget that honourable men died to allow you to make that stance. Had they not done so you could just as well been goose-stepping as objecting for conscience sake.

Numbers 32:6 And Moses said unto the children of Gad and to the children of Reuben, Shall your brethren go to war, and shall ye sit here?

No work that needs to be done either to preserve or restore civil order is beneath the Christian. Up to and including the administration of the death penalty. Normally objectors to war are in opposition to the death penalty as well, so our difference will actually lie in that area.

BTW if in war I shot another believer and he shot me at the same time, we would meet shortly thereafter and rejoice that each were delivered from this place to the next. The Christian doesn't lose by dying, he wins! HOWEVER the unbeliever when faced with his own mortality must decide as RIbbentrop and several others did whether they want to continue in that state or be saved.

From jeffmar:
Re:
The Pld Testament is about the old covenant. It has types and shadows and principles pointing to the new, but represents NATURAL shadows that were fulfilled in SPIRITUAL realities/fulfillments in the new. Murdering others is looking at scriptures through natural eyes. You need the Spirit to discern the Word of God (I Corinthians 2:14).
The things that happened to Israel were given to us as types, shadows and examples (analagies) for our benefit (I Corinthians 10:6). So, they warred against physical enemies and were called to kill them all off completely (as an OT guy, I'm sure you know the stories of Agag, Saul, Phineas, etc.), but that was types and shadows of the war New Covenant believers filled with the Holy Spirit are to fight.
Now, we are to understand "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war as the flesh does, for the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty in the pulling down of strongholds, for we war not against flesh and blood, but principalities, powers of darkness and wickedness in high places" (I Corinthians 10:3-4). If you don't realize that now, you'll be trying to "call down fire from heaven to destroy men" like the sons of thunder who Jesus rebuked. Jesus said, " you don't know what spirit you are of!" (Luke 9:55).

Go read Hebrews 11. Did those in the hall of faith fight or surrender to the Lord & severe persecution (into death) in humility, faith, & fearlessness? You are thinking through eyes of scripture BEFORE Christ came and the Holy Spirit was poured out and available to lead, guide, and direct believers into all truth! I really think You should fast, pray, ask the Lord to fill you with the Holy Spirit and believe He will cause "He is a rewarded of those that diligently seek Him" (Hebrews 11:6).

I mean you don't look At all the OT like that do you? Do you have a harem of wives and concubines like David? Do you sacrifice animals on the altar in Jerusalem? Have you stoned anyone lately (physically)? Do you refuse to ever eat pork or shellfish? No. Those are types and shadows. God lead Israel in a physical desert to test them. He leads us through Spiritual ones. God had them refrain from unclean physical meat, we are to refrain from unclean spiritual food (wordly tv, music, etc). God had them sacrifice lambs and get atonement from a yearly high priest entering the Holy of Holies. Now the Lamb of God was slain once for all for us and the veil is rent for us to go into the Holy of Holies (His presence) whenever. He had Israel kill off its physical enemies with physical swords. We are to slay the enemies of our spiritual souls with the sword of the spirit, which is the Word of God (Ephesians 6). Think/pray about it. Pray for the gift of the Holy Spirit. He will lead you into all truth!! Bless you my friend!

Ps. Just a misnomer, I have a wife, 5 kids, & have been in probably 200 fights before salvation. I have fought on the street, in bars, in the ring, etc. I used to be a tough guy, violent, have scars from tire tools to the head, brass knuckles to my ear, etc. I'm not anti-violent cause I'm "scared". I know many military types assume that. I have bullets stored for the future for elk, deer, etc bro, not people! God gives you love to surrender to the cross for His Glory. Until we understand this, we have not embraced the cross He said we must embrace and deny ourselves if we are to even be His disciple. That's real. Look it up in Jesus' words and pray God reveal truth to you on the subject!! Never reach a people for Christ when you are killing them.

From pilgrim777

Joe, I will actually share some OT scriptures on War.

But, we need to take a look at the New Covenant and the New Man and Jesus Christ.

I can take the OT and justify about anything. Anyway, I think it will be a good study. I don't want it to be a litmus test of who is a brother or who is not. You will see that the view of war has changed through the centuries with the Church.

Many of early church fathers indicated that Christians should not participate in war and there is no record of Christians participating in military prior to 174 A.D. Until 323 A.D. almost all Christian literature repudiates involvement in military service and war. Some military service was allowed for non-combative roles. And I thought this was interesting that some soldiers were excluded from participation in the Lord's Supper until they had confessed of their sin of shedding blood.

But we also see some acceptance of involvement in war as Tertullian (197 A.D.) reported many Christians in the Roman army and Clement of Alexandria (150-215 A.D.) indicated a soldier should "abide in that calling wherein he was called" (I Cor. 7:24).

I abided in my calling when I was in the military. I was saved in the military but then respectfully refused to carry a gun. I did not know what would happen when I refused but felt led in this way. Rather than punish me, my commanding officer made me his personal chauffeur. I trusted God and He protected me. on the other hand, another soldier I led to the Lord, had the conviction shortly after he was saved to leave the military on conscientious objector grounds. I had no problem with this at all. I felt led to finish my tour. I thought it was a great mission field and had the grace to stay. My friend John, felt he had to leave. I know there is great liberty in the Lord and we each have our relationship with Him.

My struggle is whether there this great liberty in the Lord that includes carrying arms and killing others (who may even be born-again Christians).

Continuiing on, after Constantine (323 A.D.) objection to involvement in war declined. Ambrose (339-397) said that "one who does not defend another from injury is as much at fault as the perpetrator." Augustine(354-430) said "A war can be just when appointed by God, because it repulses wanton attack and seeks restoration of peace".

And then we have Thomas Aquinas (1224-1274) stipulating that there are 3 criteria for just war: 1) waged by legitimate governmental authority, 2) against an enemy who deserves punishment for wrongdoing and 3) with the motivation that good should prevail and evil be removed.

So, we will begin with the history of the church. There have always been two sides and it is an interesting study. In the end, a believer has to come to his own conviction and I understand this. But, there is nothing wrong with sharing what you believe as you see it from scriptures. I look forward to seeing what your view from the scriptures is. I hope it is a peaceful and reasonable discussion that causes both sides to reflect.

I look forward to the conversation.

Pilgrim

_________________
Galations 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

"In essentials unity, In non-essentials liberty, In all things LOVE."

From Miccah
Re:
I will not pick up the sword. I don't remember Jesus picking up the sword. In fact, I remember reading about Him not responding to those who were killing Him, besides praying for them and asking Father to forgive them, for they know not what they do...

When He comes back, I know that He will have a two-edged sword, but something about it makes me think that it will not be made out of steal.

QUOTE: "No work that needs to be done either to preserve or restore civil order is beneath the Christian. Up to and including the administration of the death penalty. Normally objectors to war are in opposition to the death penalty as well, so our difference will actually lie in that area.....
BTW if in war I shot another believer and he shot me at the same time, we would meet shortly thereafter and rejoice that each were delivered from this place to the next."==OLDJOE

Yes, this is the way i view it too. I mean, if war (basically law enforcement on the national level when you really be honest about it, like in the fight against terrorists right now) is wrong then all law enforcement which involves any kind of shooting of a criminal at the state or local level is wrong then too. God gave the government the right to wield the sword and says so right in his Word...the NT.

As for killing another Christian, well good luck finding one! They are so rare that it is highly unlikely. That aside, in the rare case that may occur---such as maybe it occurred during the American Civil War---yes it is very sad but we all must die sometime, someway and God is the one who decides the how and when. I know a Christian family who basically "killed" their own daughter by refusing to take her to the doctor because they believed that the prayer of faith in God's healing would save her. Does that mean we should cease all prayer as well?

By the way, not one of you yet has answered my about
LUKE 3:14, in which soldiers asked Jesus what they should do and he had every opportunity to tell them to forsake military service and war but instead he told them to be happy with their wages. And i had pointed out the fact that He would not have told them to be happy with their wages if He intended them to quit being soldiers and doing what soldiers do.

However, historically soldiers the world over have also been known for violent acts such as rape and looting during times of war. So this is what Jesus may have been referring to when he told them to do no violence to anyone.

I respect your views and understand where you are coming from with all the things you say. It is a matter for much prayer. However, it might not ALWAYS be such a black n white answer and it may depend more on the cause one is fighting for. I hope you will be able to respect my views on this matter just as i respect yours.

Hello brother Jim, nice to see you again. I once made such a thread, its not very many but some small collection of threads on often started topics, since the function on the furum changed one has to edit the url:s from

[code]x[\\code] but it is maybe possible to continue to build that thread with new additions? https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=31655&forum=35&9

QUOTE: "Trekker, not to be picky. But the soldiers in Luke 3 were talking to John the Baptist. Not Jesus."==BEARMASTER

Oh! Right you are! Thank you for setting me straight on that! (I had to go back and look, cuz i was certain it was Jesus before...my, my...). John's words so closely reflected Jesus that i thought it was Jesus... I'm sure John would feel good about that! : ) And no, i don't think you were being picky, i think it is important to be accurate in what i quote and if i screwed up i want to know it.

It's all very interesting so far. I am learning a lot. I always wondered why so many Christians went to battle. I never knew about some of these reasonings and justifications.

I have seen you quote Ecclesiastes before Joe, regarding this topic. In light of Jesus Christ and the New Birth, what it the "time" and the "season" that you discern?

Later, I will post some more.

Pilgrim

Num 32:6 And Moses said unto the children of Gad and to the children of Reuben, Shall your brethren go to war, and shall ye sit here?

Ecc 3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

These two verses are hardly justification for Christians to harden their heart to the point where they then feel the liberty to kill others. Killing is not always nice and neat and clean. It can be quite macabre and for someone to come to the place within themselves where they can do it, is not simple thing (like many would have you believe).

Isn't this what we tell people that commit or are thinking of committing abortion? For a women to deaden herself to the point where she can carry out that act upon another human being, she must have to harden her heart to a certain point.

Now, we have Believers saying that if they kill other Christians (born-again Christians, their own brethren), that it is no big-deal because they will go to heaven.

This is but one of men's reasonings that we have learned is behind this philosophy of some Christians in the taking up of arms.

We see in the OT over 200 references to "war"

Exod. 17:16 - "The Lord will have war against Amalek from generation to generation"
Numb. 31:3 - "a 1000 from all the tribes of Israel you shall send to the war"
Eccl. 3:8 - "a time for war, and a time for peace"
Isa. 2:4 - "Nation will not lift up sword against nation, and never again will they learn war."
Micah 4:3 - "...never again will they train for war"

There are 18 references in the New Testament and they are mostly figurative.

Rom. 7:23 - "a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind"
II Cor. 10:3 - "we do not wage war according to the flesh"
Heb. 11:34 - "men of faith...who became mighty in war"
James 4:1 - "source of your pleasures wage war in your members"
I Pet. 2:11 - "fleshly lusts, which wage war against the soul"
Rev. 2:16 - "I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth"
Rev. 12:7 - "there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon..."

There are additional references to fighting and violence that should be considered.

Luk 3:14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

Is killing another man not considered violence?

My Kingdom is not of this world:

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, THEN WOULD MY SERVANTS FIGHT, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

Heb 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;

Jas 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

Let's define war and its causes before we move on.

1. a hostile conflict carried on by force of arms, as between nations or between parties within a nation, states, communities or social groups.
2. a state or period of armed hostility or active military operations:

War has been a constant feature of human history.

Today, most nations see the necessity of willingness and preparedness for war, for their existence and survival. But how much of this mentality should the Christian enter into if any?

Let me list some of the causes of War that I listed in the other thread.

1. selfish, covetous, greedy desire for gain
2. defensive fear of injury or loss
3. pursuit of glory, reputation, pride, ambition
4. desire for power, dominion, supremacy
5. passions of hatred, bigotry, revenge, extermination
6. religious zeal, ideological quest

In the Old Testament the Nation of Israel was established by warfare, defeating and casting out residents of the land of Canaan. They justified their need to war and expel the Canaanites on the promise of God in Gen 12, 15 and 18.

Gen 12:6 And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.
Gen 12:7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

We see the Lords retribution on the Canaanites
Judges 1:1-4; I Sam. 15:2

1Sa 15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
1Sa 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

And the Lord continued to instruct Israel to war as a means of survival and security regarding the nation of Israel.

How does this differ from nations today? In the OT God was identified as being the leader of Israel. He was considered the head and the king of Israel. It was a theocratic relationship with Israel. God participated with Israel in their conquests.

Exod. 15:3 - "The Lord is a warrior; the Lord is His name"
Ps. 24:8 - "Who is the King of glory? The Lord strong and mighty, the Lord mighty in battle". How do we understand these verses, today? How do we understand what our battle and who our enemy is, today?

But, we don't see God in the Old Testament as a blood-thirsty, war mongering God who fights according to the 'causes of war' that I listed above.

We see in the Old Testament prefiguring in physical history of God's spiritual intent for His people

Physical warfare is pictorial portrayal of spiritual warfare and was never intended to be used to justify the born-again child of God to "slay his enemies" by the arm of the flesh in the New Testament era.

Physical warfare in the OT prefigured good conquering evil and God defeating Satan. War was regarded as necessary evil to achieve salvation of God for His people, Israel.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

We preach a Gospel of Peace. Peace with God through the Lord Jesus Christ. But our Gospel is no Gospel when we threaten men with hell at the end of a muzzle unless they repent. Who won't repent under those circumstances? Isn't this what Islam and Catholicism did through the centuries? Threats of extermination unless one converted? And what kind of "sons" were made through this process? False sons!

Next: War and the New Testament

Pilgrim

Hi Jeff,

(remember, though he was a "man after God's own heart" he couldn't build God's temple because God said he was a "man of too much bloodshed", and now "we are the temple of the Holy Ghost" in our bodies".

Excellent point, also Jeff. David could not build the temple because of too much bloodshed.

I think we who are part of the New Covenant and have been equipped to be fellow builders in the new Temple (Body of Christ) will also be disqualified for building and working in the "Temple", if we spill blood. And this is what the early church believed. They would not allow anyone to partake of the Lord's Supper unless they repented. If David was disqualified, how much more would we, who have received grace and truth be disqualified?

Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Act 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?

Do we think that our Temple where the Holy Ghost resides will be a place of rest for the Lord if we spill blood?

Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Act 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

Do we want to be counted in the number of those that slew others?

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God (Matt 5:9)

We know that "true" peace does not come through war. I fully understand why uncircumcised man and civil authorities use force and engage in war to "bring peace". But this is not the peace that Matthew 5:9 is speaking about. This has no reference to the efforts of secular governments to achieve peace through the United Nations Organization, nor efforts by pacifists or current protests by demonstrators against war and bearing of arms. Matthew 5:9 refers to the manifestation of love in the daily conduct of Jesus' disciples in their personal relationships with others (in the Body of Christ and outside the Body of Christ).

In a world filled with hate, social unrest, riots, strife and war the spirit-filled disciple is characterized as a man of peace as well as one who seeks to make peace with everyone that he comes in contact with. The New Testament clearly teaches non-resistance as part of the Christian character because it was the character of the Lord Jesus. Peacemaking is not passive. It is active and willful and non-resistance, which is seen as passive is actually active and willful and is one of our biggest WEAPONS against the forces of darkness.

"Being reviled, He did not revile".

Rom 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. (if you can't live peaceably, leave, don't kill).

Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, AVENGE NOT YOURSELVES, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, BUT OVERCOME EVIL WITH GOOD.

The disciple that would follow Jesus and be like Him has peace in his heart.

Isa 26:3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.

He follows peace with all men...

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: (holiness, peace or both?)

And seeks to promote peace with all men (Matt 5:9) and ...

Pro 12:20 Deceit is in the heart of them that imagine evil: but to the counsellors of peace is joy.

Jas 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

The promise in Matthew 5:9 is that "they shall be sons of God", because of this characteristic, they shall be like God's Son, Who is the Prince of Peace.

Matthew 5:10 says, "Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven".

I submit to the Brethren, that any Christian who does not experience persecution, it may be because they don't take the previous Beatitudes that lead up to Matt 5:10, seriously.

Persecution is the neverfailing consequence of living the righteousness of the first seven beatitudes.

Then you will be able to obey this:

Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Pilgrim

Jeff,

You are doing a great job. Old_Joe says that we need to look at the whole book, but he does not look at the NT and what Jesus and Apostles not only said, but their example of living. From much of Joe's posts and doctrine he seems to live in the OT. I would like to see Old_Joe present his case from the Words of Jesus and the Apostles, too. At least, he should balance his case with them.

Here is a contemporary of ours who lives in the NT.

Widow of Murdered Christian Speaks Out
Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. Romans 12:19

The widow of one of the murdered Christians in Turkey shares her thoughts on her husband's death.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Lz8fN-9-mtg

Pilgrim

John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

This is done in the defense of or behalf of another, which is an endearing principle. To die (or kill) in the defense of yourself is no great thing, but to do it on the behalf of another is where courage comes in.

Consider three people. Someone with his gunsights trained on abortion doctor and a tact officer with his sites trained on the potential shooter. One of the three will kill someone before the day is over, which one has the highest authority of God to act?

Joe, I am astonished at your understanding (or lack thereof) of the Scriptures.

You take verses out of context of the rest of the Word to support your doctrine of war and self-defense.

We know that God is love. True love is embodied in Jesus Christ. He that hath not God hath not love. He that dwells in Christ hath love.

1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

The Lord is telling us here that we can sacrifice our life but if we do not have love (God, Jesus Christ) then sacrificing our life PROFITS US NOTHING.

I know the verse that you gave (" Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.") is often given at funerals of servicemen and law enforcement people and it would seem to the person who is not knowledgeable about God's ways that it is a surefire ticket to heaven.

But we know that is not the case. So, to use this verse to support a doctrine of aggression is twisting the Scriptures and you should know this.

God alone is Lord of the conscience. Our conscience is subject to Christ and the Word of God, alone. We therefore cannot be compelled by a "higher authority" (none exists) to disobey that which the Lord commands. God alone is the Lord of the conscience and man nor the commandments of men can bind our conscience which is contrary to Scripture.

1Co 7:22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
1Co 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

One who puts on a uniform on behalf of a kingdom of this world takes an OATH of allegiance to obey its leaders in every detail. It is absolute unquestioning obedience and loyalty which demands that their country come before their conscience. Wilful disobedience will be considered disloyalty or treason.

It is clear from the Word of God that only to Jesus Christ can a Christian pledge complete loyalty and devotion and ABSOLUTE obedience. When I joined the Navy, I became a slave yielded to the will of my NEW MASTER and I yielded up any freedom that I had. I yielded up my life, my will and my body to the control and use of the leaders of this worldly kingdom. Of course I was not saved then and did not have any understanding. I was already a child of this worldly kingdom.

Today, I am a slave of Christ, who is my master and cannot serve two masters especially in things so contrary to each other and are the Kingdom of God and the kingdom of this world.

Now, I did become a Christian in the military. But I refused to carry a gun on watch as it violated my Christ given conscience. I was not compelled by Christ to obey and my commanding officer did not compel me to obey, either. I fully realized that I could have been thrown into the brig.

The first Christians never considered themselves as "patriots." Christianity replaced the Hebrew love of nation with love of individuals. And now Christ resides in individuals of all nations so what possible justification could they have given if brothers in Christ gathered themselves in opposing armies to maim and kill one another as the professing Church now approves?

The Christian is not under obligation to dedend the secular State against an Enemy in disobedience to Christ because in the first place our enemies are the flesh, the world and Satan. Mere man cannot be our enemy even when they consider Christians as their enemies. We are commanded to love them, do good to them and to pray (Mt 5:43-48). As Christians, we look upon no man as our enemy. We should not regard our earthly citizenship as something to fight for and kill to maintain but as something to lose and give up for obedience to Christ.

Don't we consider ourselves as "strangers and pilgrims (I Pet 2:11), with no true citizenship in this world?

Why did Christ command his followers not to defend Jerusalem when the enemy gathered around the Holy City. Instead, He instructed them to flee to the mountains and when they were persecuted in one city He commanded them to flee to another (not fight). The Christian must refuse to defend a city belonging to the kingdoms of this world when Christ forbade them to defend the chose City of Zion, itself!!

Pilgrim

They want to save their life (sytle), but they will only lose it in the end. Being about the Master's business is not defending the kingdoms of this world.

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Brethren i think something may have missed by the casual observance. Notice as christian people we are to show honor to those who serve to protect society and carry out the laws of the land. We are not to fight against government but trust God to deliver us from every evil work. We are to realize that the kingdom of God in which we belong is not of this world and neither are we to fight with carnal weapons but the weapons of our warfare are mighty through God in the pulling down of strongholds.

This leads me to believe that I am to show honor and respect to those serving to protect society but that as a christian I am to be filled with the Holy Spirit and to do the work of God operating in His kingdom and therefore I can not fight for earthly kingdoms neither can I as a Holy Spirit filled man raise up a carnal weapon as a minister of justice because God has not called me to do this but only to preach the gospel of peace to all men.

Let every man decide for himself and the bible does not tell us to judge one another. it says to show honor and tribute to those bearing the sword, it does not say to judge them or condemn them. Everybody will give an account for what they do and God will be their judge.

Blessing...from brother rbanks

The reason that much of the church looks and acts like the world is because they believe much of what the world believes when it comes to living in this world and defending the kingdoms of this world. We really don't read or believe God's Word or else we have ADJUSTED IT to fit our lifestyle.

The Lord's revolutionary principle of nonresistance including obedience and subjection to the government is clearly seen in Scripture. Jesus' attitude toward the State (secular government as the the kingdom of this world) clearly shows that it had a egitimate function to impose and collect taxes (Mt 22:15-22)

Mat 22:21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

or tribute (Mt 17:24-27).

Many of us know of others that rebelled against the government in paying their taxes. God is not on their side. He is on the side of the government. God does not countenance rebellion against the authorities no matter how oppressive they are.

God also ordained the legitimate functions of conducting courts of law and justice (Mt 5:25-26, 40, Acts 25:11) and maintain law and order (Mk 10:42, Mt 8:9 and that the authority of the rulers was ordained and given by God (Jn 19:8-11). However, He very carefully distinguished between His Kingdom and the nature of it and the kingdom of this world (Jn 18:33-36, Luke 22:24-27, Mt 5:7).

In the same way, the Apostle's concept of the State is also that it was an institution ordained by God. (Romans 13:1, Daniel 4:17) and that resistance to the State is RESISTANCE TO GOD.

Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

The State is the minister of God to maintain law and order, peace and justice and punish wrongdoers.

Rom 13:3-4 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

It does not matter if the government is a monarchy, dictatorship, republic or communistic the Scriptures declare that "the powers that be are ordained of God." The NT principle does not change with time or the form of government. Even Paul commanded obedience and submission to the State by the Christians at Rome even though they lived under some of the most wicked dictators and tyrants of history. The Apostle Peter even exhorted the Christians to "submit yourselves to EVERY ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; or unto governors...for so is the will of God....Honor the king...slaves be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle but also to the froward" (I Peter 2:11

I think it is pretty clear that through Peter, the Lord teaches total submission to those in authority as the will of God. Nero was the wicked tyrant who persecuted and murdered thousands of Christians and Peter says to "honor the king."

Peter further instructs the Church to suffer patiently (not fight back), because "hereunto were ye called" because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow in His steps" (1 Pet 2:21).

Paul tells Titus to "put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no man, to be no BRAWLERS, but GENTLE, shewing all MEEKNESS UNTO ALL MEN" (Titus 3:1-2, 3:5).

As you can see Jesus and the Apostles had quite a bit to say about this. Jude even rebukes those who "despise dominion (government authority, 2 Pet 2:10) and who speak evil of dignities (Jude 8).

The attitude and practice of much of the Church today, is reproved by these many Scriptures, since most of the Church today, due to the teaching of "democratic right of freedom of speech", and the encouragement of political strife, willingly and quickly, speak out against their leaders, leveling all manner of railing accusations and charges against the God ordained authorities.

This is a SIN carefully avoided even by Michael the archangel, when he had his encounter with Satan over the body of Moses.

You cannot excuse or justify any behavior that is opposite of what the Scriptures say just because the United State Constitution allows you "freedom of speech" and the "right of petition." I say, God has not given us these rights, though man has!

Act 23:5 Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.

Your "constitutional freedom" is to be interpreted in the light of your "Christian freedom", which never allows the Believer to walk contrary to the Scriptures.

Our democratic form of government gives us (Christians) the right to do many things that God, through the Scriptures has not given us. Through man's document (Constitution) we have the right to exercise divorce, lawsuits, labor strikes, killing in self-defense, political party strife, drinking, gambling, etc, etc. The Scriptures warn against this misuse of our Christian freedom.

1Pe 2:16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God (look at the context of verses 11-25).

1Co 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Let's take a look at some rulers and governments that God has raised up.

Pharoah
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Assyria
Isa 10:5-19 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

Babylon
Hab 1:6 For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs.
They are terrible and dreadful: their judgment and their dignity shall proceed of themselves.

Rome (Romans 13:1-7)

God remains constant through the ages and His Word does not change.

This means that 20th governments and rulers such as Germany, Japan, Russia and China were not accidents in history but are instruments in the hands of God, "for there is no power but of God".

Paul and Peter living under one of the most wicked and cruel despots of all time (and persecutor of Christians) say "they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation" (Romans 13:1).

We (Christians) are FORBIDDEN to resist God's constituted authority for any reason (whether by peaceful means or any other means) unless such obedience would constitute disobedience to God.

Pilgrim

Well, Joe, you still have not addressed anything that Jesus and the Apostles said. We already know that you would have no problem killing other Christians in the defense of a worldly kingdom (as you have already said).

I would come to the aid of someone being bullied or attacked and have done so. I have broken up fights but have not had to kill to do it. My perspective is not from the point of an aggressor but from the standpoint of the scriptures, which I have amply supplied and you have continually ignored. I would just like you to address the scriptures I have pointed out. I certainly extend to you the freedom to practice your Christianity as you understand you should and I don't judge you. But, I thought we could look at what Jesus and the Apostles had to say and work through these things, together. I think it is a pretty important subject which I think many are confused about.

Man's morality is not the same as God's righteousness and that is what we need to comprehend.

Pilgrim

Hi Jeff,

I agree with you wholeheartedly and my thanks to everyone for their input, especially Old_Joe.

Indeed we may all be tested someday and when we are, may we choose to do what the Lord Jesus and the Apostles did as demonstrated by their very lives when they were walking the earth.

To quote bearmaster,

Pilgrim, standing down.