Women in the ministry

I think it depends what kind of ministry you are refering to. Many ministries from the Lord do not involve usurping authority over the man. (1 Timothy 2:12 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. )

I agree. I strongly believe in the role of women in the church and would encourage gifts in both men and women in the church. However there is a Godly order to hold to, and It says very clearly that Women are not to take an overall leadership role! There are some circumstances where god uses women in these roles due to the lack of men, Mainly overseas or in areas of limited resources. But we must hold to Gods order! Which is not to degrade but to build up. God has made us different but not any one better than the other just different roles. I trust this is a help not a hinderance.

Hey brother,Might give this a look for others thoughts on all this entails, at 12 pages you might say there has been some prior discussion ;-) ;Can women preach/teach in church?

Only Jesus was infallible and perfect. Paul was a fallible sinner, like you and I.Not when he wrote scripture he wasn't!

Gentleman,One of the things that keeps this forum from degenerating into so much unfortunate tendencies is that we draw the line on personal snipping at one another. It's a conduct issue. Disagree all you like, but save the barbs and whatnot for somewhere else if you must.It's easy to forget that there are many other people observing the words that we all write here and hopefully even some who may not know the Lord.Hope we all keep in mind the words and principle behind those of our Lord, when He rebuked the Sons of Thunder; Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

One of the things that keeps this forum from degenerating into so much unfortunate tendencies is that we draw the line on personal snipping at one another. It's a conduct issue. Disagree all you like, but save the barbs and whatnot for somewhere else if you must.It's easy to forget that there are many other people observing the words that we all write here and hopefully even some who may not know the Lord.Hope we all keep in mind the words and principle behind those of our Lord, when He rebuked the Sons of Thunder; Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.Those were some very timely words brother. Forum conduct does take some getting used to. One thing that helps to keep the discussions spiritual is prayer. Please do pray before you post on difficult topics such as these. May the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of light, give the members of this forum a spirit of unity and love according to that which He suffered for in His Son.James

paul spoke from God. read 2 peter if you don't believe it. women are not to teach or usurp authority over men. this is not outdated. it is God's way ever since the garden of eden because eve was first deceived. women give in more easily to temptation by the devil than men (probably the emotions), and men are easily deceived by women. we see this pattern in eden. therefore, women should not hold that position over men. when they aspire to this position, they have the SPIRIT OF JEZEBEL for which the church at thyatira was condemned. if you don't understand it, read about the old testament jezebel. the man is the head of the woman and christ is the head of the man. keep the order godly, and forget your american false doctrine of "tolerance" and "women's liberation." remember these ideas were not created by our Lord. they are devoid of the spirit. before you know it, we'll be tolerating homosexuality. and yes demons still exist today, just trust me on that one, even if you won't trust God's word.

. women give in more easily to temptation by the devil than men (probably the emotions), and men are easily deceived by women. we see this pattern in eden. therefore, women should not hold that position over men. when they aspire to this position, they have the SPIRIT OF JEZEBEL for which the church at thyatira was condemned.This is not the reason why women should not usurp authority over man. You are taking the stance that men are somehow superior concerning righteousness, this in not true. The reason woman was placed in subjection to man is none other than this:1 Corinthians 11: 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman came from man; 9 and man was not created for woman, but woman for man.Let us remember that though our bodies are male and female, our spirits are not male and female but are as the angels (Mathew 22: 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.) It just so happens that while we are on the earth some people have been delegated with greater authority by way of the vessels they occupy. It has nothing to do with ability. All authority is from God and Jesus recognized this when Pilate questioned him. (John 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.) And in a different sense but much the same way, man could have no authority over woman except it be given him from above. This speaks nothing of our ability but it is the divine order which can neither be questioned nor understood. It is peculiar that the blessings of the Lord in the Old Testament fall on the younger (one with less authority) of two siblings (Cane and Able; Jacob and Esau; Isaac ad Ishmael). Women tend to have a more powerful pray ministry than men, but such ministries are glorious and as such must remain hidden. In the same way the woman, has glory upon her head and ought to cover this glory out of humility…just some thoughts. James

women are not to teach or usurp authority over men. this is not outdated.Hello Brethren,I don't disagree with this, yet I would like to call attention to some issues that existed here in Missouri among Pentecostal denominations in the mid 20th century. When I talk to the old timers they tell of how men 50 years ago simply did not support Church services. They willingly took a back seat and would hardly serve God. Women filled churches and there were very few men. Some churches were completely started by women. One of the largest AG churches in Henry county was started by a woman nearly 50 years ago. My great great grandmother was a street preacher who helped pray many men set free from alcohol. I learned almost all I knew about God from women until I was a teenager. It was a woman preacher that taught me the fear of the Lord. It was here teachings that instilled such a fear of God in me that to my knowledge I have never verbally taken God's name in vain. God used that woman greatly in my life.Sadly, many men's wives took the spiritual leadership role in the home out of necessity. I know many men who would abuse their wife for going to church once they got saved. Had they not prayed and taught their children the word of God, who knows what may have happened. So before we get too excited in shutting down the women who towed the line for years while their husbands were often closing down the bars we ought to make sure the men are willing to step it up. If there is blame to go around for so many women in ministry it would certainly be at least in part due to the lack of spirituality in the men. It was a couple of women that are said to have prayed down the Hebrides revival. Ever see men weeping at altars? I have seen 5 to 1 women weeping for souls. And yes I have personally been on the receiving end of Jezebel spirit's. But how do they come about? When the men refuse to step up and be men. Look at Ahab and his sons. If were going to exhort the women to get in their place we need to start at the top and get the men in place first. Otherwise all you create is a vacancy. I have seen God tolerate and anoint a woman to do a work when there was no man to do the job. This is not compromise- it is ministry. This is David eating the shewbread. This is Jesus healing on the Sabbath. If there were a well able man- he should take the role. If the need is now the need is now. You use what you have and God will bless it. It is not the rule any more than David eating lunch everyday in the Holy Place. And it is not pragmatism either. It is understanding that the Gospel is not an adendum to the 613 laws of the Old Testament; that is Pharisiasm. There are times when God will use people of necessity. The Lord hath need of them. We need to be careful. Our job is to preach the Gospel. If a hundred men need to hear the word and there is only a women who knows it- do we hold our peace lest we be pragmatic? Nay verily! There are a lot of women missionaries in the world. If we carry this to its natural conclusion we would have to shut the women down in this community for teaching or speaking. I don't think any will be voting for that.God Bless,-Robert

RobertI can see what you are saying here sir. Your discussion is a legitimate one but still I am not convinced that that is always adequate. Consider this John 12: 4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him, 5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? AndMathew 26: 8 But when his disciples saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste? 9 For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor.This seems like a legitimate argument. It is true that his motives were wrong but truly, that money could have been used for the poor. But this was not the divine order. The lord could do nothing of Himself, so we know this was the will of the Father. It seemed to his disciples to be a waste, but it was not a waste, it was the will of God. The big question here is not one of practicality or of ethics or feelings or “demand and supply” the question is, what is the will of the God?James

The big question here is not one of practicality or of ethics or feelings or “demand and supply” the question is, what is the will of the God?Hi James,What is the will of God? That the Lamb that was slain would receive the reward of his suffering. We will rack up a thousand threads before anyone convinces me that God would so choose that a man die and go to hell before a woman would teach him the Gospel.God Bless,-Robert

But there is a big difference between proclaiming the gospel to lost people... and having authority in the church or teaching men in the church. For instance, my wife has been sharing her faith with her brother for a couple of years, trying to get him saved. That is totally different. I don't believe Paul was talking about that at all.That's exactly what I would have said. And to add to that, I do believe women have wide range of opportunities to minister and bring glory to the bride of Christ (His church). Not Having authority in the church is not as restrictive as we make it out to be. JamesPS: I'm sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth, that was really a general statement, not directed at anyone in particular.

I don't believe Paul was talking about that at all.Hi Krispy,Again, I am in total agreement with Paul. I have argued valiantly in times past against women userping the authority over men and will continue to do so. My point is that there are times when there are simply no men that can take the role or are willing to take the role. This is not hypothetical in our parts; it has been reality in many cases. There are simply no men around to userp in these cases, just a host of abandoned posts. Maybe no one in this thread is taking the position that the ministry should just be allowed to fall if there are no men; but in case some may hold that position, I hold it to be false and dangerous. Pragmatism gone mad would abandon the ministry because there were only women who knew and could teach the Gospel or keep the ministry alive. It does not negate the necessity of the Divine order, it shows the conditions that existed at the time. Let the man take the role if there be one, if not let the ministry go forward until there is. I was wondering if any wanted to address the part about speaking and teaching in the forums? To be consistent, we have to tackle it also.God Bless,-Robert

If I remember correctly from a previous thread on this topic, there is a distinction to be made between teaching and preaching. Teaching would be more of a setting down of doctrine and church rules. What is the will of God? That the Lamb that was slain would receive the reward of his suffering. We will rack up a thousand threads before anyone convinces me that God would so choose that a man die and go to hell before a woman would teach him the Gospel.AmenOne thing to throw into the mix, how do the rest of you feel about a woman prophesying? Could that not be seen as a form of authority over a man?

God has been known to use animals to reach people (like Balaam), and He said even the rocks would cry out if we didn't.I agree. but i'm going to split this post as not to cause confusion. ;-)*************************************************************As far as teaching in the forum... I believe Paul was referring to "in the church". I personally have no problem with a woman giving her perspective on something in this setting. It's not the same as having a captive audience. In our house church the men teach, but the floor is open for women to discuss the teaching once the teacher opens it up to questions. It needs to be done in an orderly fashion.I agree again. But what is "in the church?" God Bless,-Robert

But what is "in the church?" I consider the people on SI to be the church, just as much as any church in a building or home. The church is a people with invisible walls. That said... if anyone has learned anything from me on this forum this past year, should you repent?All the men who have learned great and marvelous things from the books of Amy Carmichael, Nancy DeMoss, M. Guyon, Elisabeth Elliott- should they not learn from them? When they get up to speak (Nancy DeMoss for instance) should men leave the room?I do not want to get up and preach to a bunch of men- they should have enough wisdom to do so among themselves- BUT sadly today this is LACKING in America. I know many more woman who are willing to surrender their whole lives and die to themselves compared to the number of men. it is very sad.I know i have mentioned this before- and my husband would be the first to agree- everything he has learned about the gospel and about living a surrendered life has come from me (the Holy Spirit through me). I teach him things almost everyday. I help him fully understand My Utmost for His Highest so that he can share this with his men's group twice a week. Yes, I am behind the scenes here for now- and he is getting the credit and the opportunity to direct these people. I look at someone like Nancy Demoss. She says she has a calling to speak to woman about very serious issues that men SHOULD be speaking about just as much if not more- since they are supposed to be the leaders. Yet many men end up listening to her program and reading her books because the messages are so needed. I don't see many men stepping up to be holy and righteous and willing to LAY IT ALL DOWN for the sake of Christ and his name. Too many still want to hold onto their rights and their name and their hobbies, etc....Thank the Lord for the few who have stepped up- Wilkerson, Conlon, Poonen, Daniels, and a few rare men here at SI, some who are perhaps hidden until the time when the Lord chooses to bring them out.Anyway, I don't know all the answers. But I do see the Lord using woman to teach men and and all I can say is "where are the righteous men"?I don't want to argue at all about whether a woman should be a preacher or whatever. I believe that you either preach Christ and Him crucified with your life and your words- or you don't.If I am never to get up in front of a bunch of men to tell them anything- who cares? I still preach Him all the time, to whoever comes across my path. :-) In Him, Chanin

Hi Chanin,I don't see many men stepping up to be holy and righteous and willing to LAY IT ALL DOWN for the sake of Christ and his name. Too many still want to hold onto their rights and their name and their hobbies, etc....Sad, but too often true. Anyway, I don't know all the answers. But I do see the Lord using woman to teach men and and all I can say is "where are the righteous men"?Good question.I consider the people on SI to be the church, just as much as any church in a building or home. The church is a people with invisible walls. That said... if anyone has learned anything from me on this forum this past year, should you repent?Well, I never felt the need to. Matter of fact, I have used some of your materials in ministry. One of the most powerful 'words' I have ever read were these, "I have asked you time and time again to lay these things down." There are a lot of truthes that when taken to their final conclusion end up off the rails. This is one in a long list we have been going through here at SI. there has to be some charity in all this and some grace. I spent 3+ years studying the Pharisees. Hate to say it, but I am too often reminded of those feelings here at times. It disturbs me greatly and causes me to want to quit preaching repentance and preach grace. God Bless,-Robert

RobertW wrote:There are a lot of truthes that when taken to their final conclusion end up off the rails. Wisdom in such circumstances becomes the most valuable commodity for the christian disciple.

I have to wonder if we are hanging onto the letter of the law here. Maybe not- and if I am wrong then so be it. But I have to wonder if those who are always wanting to debate these kinds of issues, if their time would be better spent asking the Lord to search their own hearts and cleanse them from all unrighteousness. I mean, if we spent as much time on the "right things"- such as becoming holy and dying to self and serving those in need and becoming more of Christ- should we have time to argue about these things?It seems to me that if Jesus were to come back today and stand among us, the first thing He says is not going to be "why are you letting your women preach and teach?" I don't even think it would be mentioned. If someone were to bring it up "look at so and so, they let their women teach or preach, what do you say about this?" (of course asking to prove a point usually) Doesn't this sound just like the pharisees back in the day? I believe the Lord might say something to this affect: "Why bother yourself with this. Those who preach Me are just to do so. Why not look into your own hearts and see why you are so concerned with this. Where is your heart? Are you without sin? Are you more righteous than these women? Have you given me a place in your hearts as these women have? Am I your All in All as I am for these women?"Everytime there is an issue of the "law" or how things are supposed to be. I have to wonder if we need to start in our own hearts first. Is your heart pure and right? Is it ok for us to be following all the "rules' just right- yet be unsurrendered in areas of our lives? The Lord looks on the heart. If men would consider this, havng their hearts pure and undefiled and HUMBLE before the Lord, considering others better than themselves- perhaps there would not be a need for women to teach at all.Just more thoughts...:)in His service, Chanin

I enjoyed your post Chanin,Some additional thoughts,Paul Recognized Women in Ministry Roles.Phoebe, the bearer of the letter Paul wrote from Corinth, and was commended to the saints at Rome. They were asked to receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and to assist her in whatever business she had need of them. She is called a “servant (diakonas) of the church which is at Cenchreae” (Rom 16:1). Out of 22 times this word is used in the New Testament, 18 times it is translated “minister” and 3 times “deacon.” Paul also says of Phoebe that she was a servant of many, “and of myself also” (Rom 16:2). According to (Liddell and Scott’s lexicon) the literal meaning is of one who “stands before.” It is applied to a chief, leader of a party. I believe the consideration Paul asks of the Romans for Phoebe is in harmony with what he elsewhere asks for church leaders (Philp 2:29; 1 Thes 5:12-13, ect…) It is important to consider, Phoebe fulfilled the function of deaconess whether or not she was officially “appointed by man” to such a position.And what about Priscilla and her husband Aquila?They had a part in the establishment of the Churches at Corinth, Ephesus and Rome. According to Apollos (Acts 18:26), they also expounded the way of God more perfectly unto him. Wherever they lived, their home became a meeting place for the church (Rom 16:5; 1 Cor 16:19.) Paul calls them his fellow-laborer’s. Is there any significance to the fact that in four of the six times they are mentioned, Priscilla’s name stands first? I believe this shows Paul’s regard for her, but also undoubtedly the probability or at least the possibility that she exceeded her husband in prominence and her ability to minister the Word. I think it unreasonable to assume that she had to remain silent or had no public ministry to men or to a mixed group.We could speak of Mary, Junia, Tryphena, Tryphosa and Persis, or the ministry Husband and Wife team of Junia and Andronicus.And what of the Prophetesses in the Old Testamant? Miriam who led a group of women in public praise to God, Deborah who was a judge in Israel as well as a prophetess. Isaiah’s wife, although married to a famous prophet was not kept from fulfilling a prophetic office in her own right. Anna is called a prophetess, and served God with fasting and prayers night and day in the Temple, and spoke publicly of Christ to all who looked for redemption in Jerusalem.If God saw fit to bestow a prophetic office upon women in Old Testament times, despite some biases against women and limitations upon a public ministry for them, it seems to me logical that they would be accorded even greater privileges and opportunities for Ministry under the New Covenant of Grace.What are we to say of these few Ladies I have mentioned, are we to take the position that there were no Godly men to fulfill the calling? That these ladies were only identified as eligible on a second round vote? Or could we consider that they were Divinely appointed, called and anointed for such a time?In Christ,tony

I know I have a Problem Cuz I won't listen to a Women Preach.. Maybe it's cuz most of my bosses on the Job have been woman or maybe Cuz I don't like listening to a Girl. Just ask my Wife.Although I believe that a Woman can be used of GOD I personally don't like to hear em. Dats just me.Maybe some of you Women should pray for me cuz I just don't think women should preach to a Man if there is a Man who can do the Job. Further I think Women should teach other Women and children. However in these last Days..... I think GOD will use as many Men and Women as he can get.So in closing forget everything I said and Go Get em Girls. And for you Boys... Well you should all be ashamed letting a girl beat you in a race. :-P

It was to serve... not lead.Hi Krispy,You walked into a serious trap here. Christ said that the greatest among us shall be the servants. You can't lead unless you are a servant. This is where modern leadership misses it. We are now caught in a theological cross fire. Do you see the contradictions? On one thread we have people arguing for virtually no leadership and here we are faced with having to hold a position like that in order to make this doctrine work. This needs to be sorted out. :-?God Bless,-Robert

Who was that Girl in the Judges who put a Pike in some evil kings head wit a hammer?... was it Deborah or somthing..Anyhow God could not find a man to lead Isreal and HE Chose a Woman.And Since God word is the same yesterday today and forever, this reasoning of GOD's must still stand, in that If a man can't be found then he will chose a woman.

I had something all written out.........then this thought came to mind. Why ARE women in the pulpit? Why? This society we now live in is full of rebellion---male and female rebellion. I'll just address a mother's role: Are mothers taking the time to raise up GODLY sons, sons who will grow into God fearing, faithful men who Love the Lord with all their hearts----teaching their sons how to 'submit one to another' yet understand the responsibility God has given man as head of the woman? Are mothers teaching their daughters the benefits of being a gentle, submissive, self sacrificing young woman---especially teaching by EXAMPLE? Oh my, how convicting for me to read these words---a conviction (of my own rebellion) that brought me to tears in repentance with my husband today.....It was said how many mothers/women taught the young men the Word of God by the Spirit of God. How is it that if this is accomplished----young men being taught/brought up understanding the Grace of God through the Spirit of God used in a woman----that the young men do not naturally walk in their God given calling? Why must they continue to "sit" under a woman's teachings? I believe the Lord uses many women to "equip" the Body of Christ (prophetesses, deaconnesses, etc), however, what I dont' see scripturally is women being called to LEAD men........it appears to me to either be a rebellion issue on the woman's part (usurping authority), or the men who HAVE been taught are forsaking their callings............

Here is the only statistic I have...I am still not willing to Go out and bring people to Christ.I am a Man.

You've stated this several times now, and I dont think anyone is disagreeing with you. HOWEVER, it's real easy to say men are not stepping up today.... do you have any proof of this assertion?Hi Krispy,Look at the average age of pastors. in my neck of the woods its about 50-60years old. We have had to keep 70-80 year old pastors in place because virtually no young preachers are coming up. There have been intense efforts to help this also. I am 35 and am one of the youngest guys around. We need some serious laborers just to fill positions. God Bless,-Robert

It was said how many mothers/women taught the young men the Word of God by the Spirit of God. How is it that if this is accomplished----young men being taught/brought up understanding the Grace of God through the Spirit of God used in a woman----that the young men do not naturally walk in their God given calling?Hi Cindy,As I see it, it is due to the rate of attrition among those who come up in Godly homes. Some of the godliest women I ever heard of had sons that rebelled and died alcoholics. Rebellion is the key. People are full of it today! Even teaching youth as I do and coming with everything from the fear of God to the love of God has still left many that have fallen. Look at Samuel's kids for example and David's. Paris Reidhead has an excellent sermon on this called, "The Tragedy of Third Generation Religion." God Bless,-Robert

I just wanted to add that I can't see myself ever going to a church headed up by a woman. I just can't sit there and have another woman boss me around, holds no water wit me.It may be wrong but Im still being perfected :)

You're 35... stand up. I'm 37... stand with me, bro.I'm standing. I'm unworthy, but I'm still standing. Will be preaching repentance to some folk in Nebraska this weekend. Would appreciate prayers.God Bless,-Robert

Yes, I agree with you Robert. The rebellion is great as Paul taught it would be in the days preceeding the Coming of Jesus in Glory. I worked with the youth as well and saw it first hand. Most of them ust wanted "fun", they didn't want GOD. It was very disheartening to see, but Jesus did say "when I come, will I find faith?".......In any case, every time this topic comes up in my life this scripture comes to mind: Isa. 3:12---as for MY PEOPLE, children are your oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of my paths.I think many who focus on this topic or any for that matter concerning truth, it is due to concern over what this passage portrays: the way of HIS paths are destroyed----due to error and the end result is oppression, something the Lord does not want for His people. ALL sound doctrine should be sought/practiced-----not for rightness sake, but that the True paths of God would be known and True life experienced. We should want that for ourselves as well as others. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy

I heard some men discussing reently that they wished that churches didn't look so 'feminine.' They said that they look as though they were decorated by women and it makes men feel a bit out of place. They asked me, have you ever gone into a church a seen a deer-head on the mantle? Nope, I havn't (and don't really want to), but that was kind of their point. Personally I could care less if God was moving in the lives of the people. :-) God Bless,-Robert

Hehe, now thats funny!Ah... Thanks to all for keeping things congenial here. Just thought I would again mentioned the prior older parallel thread Can women preach/teach in church? There is much to be gleaned from and if you are really dilligent even a bit of humor (Hint, look for BigDave)

Dearly belovedI think too many assumptions are being made. No one here said women are useless (although, some have come dangerously close ;-) ). The question here is not what does the situation tell us to do, for this will not get us anywhere, it is none other than us using the power we gained from the tree of knowledge to conclude what we deem to be good. There is no light on this path, only strivings and controversy. Let us not look at the letter of the word but the spirit of the word. Paul never uses any derogatory remarks when he speaks of women in the ministry. His (the Holy Ghost) reason has nothing to do with the ability of women but, with the divine order. Why has God made man to have authority over woman, we do not know the reason but we do accept. Let us also remember that the apostle who brought us the definition of “the letter” was Paul (by the Holy Ghost). Paul knew about freedom in the Spirit well and, dare I say, he knew this better than you and I, much better. This is not about what we see with our eyes and assess with our fallen minds to be good, this is about the will of God. No one has ever said that women are not filled with Holy Ghost and with power and might, and the love of Jesus. This is not the point here (although some have made it the point, on both sides of the fence). There are many offices which are being neglected because everyone is clamoring to “save souls”, what about ministering to the decaying, naked, blind church? Again, we say, what is ministry? It is not necessarily usurping authority. Some of the Holiest people I have ever met in my life were women, and I will tell you something else, they did not have to say a word to me to convict me. They were not preachers but one wonders what kind of ministry requires such Holiness? Does anyone still minister you the Lord and worship Him in Spirit and in truth? This is an important aspect of the Church (and there are many others) and I am not saying that all women are made for that but, from my own limited experience the prayer of women has a very different feel to that of men. What are your thoughts concerning this.James

James,May I say that you are the kind of man that it is easy for a girl to be under authority.:) You have the right tone and understanding I believe. I thank you for that!If all men (believers) understood how precious all people are to the Lord no matter what sex they are. If all men would have the fruits of the spirit developed in them as you do- it would make things much easier.No one here said women are useless (although, some have come dangerously close ).Yes, I almost posted about being compared to an animal. I do believe there is an order that God created. But I also believe that both men and women are truly equal in their "WORTH" to the Lord and should be treated by believers as such.Even though my giftings may be in wisdom and prophecy, does not mean that i am to be up preaching a message to anyone. if the Lord asks me to be behind the scenes (as with my husband now) then so be it. If I am to be the the one who helps my husband to understand things better so that he can bring this wisdom to others- then so be it. i am willing to be hidden. Though I know I am being still used by the Lord. :-) My husband is the head of our household. I make sure my children see this. Yet it is hard for them not to see that I am the "spiritual" one of the home. I try to give as much credit to my husband as I can but still my children and everyone who knows us as a couple, come to me for advice or questions concerning their walk with the Lord. it is just a given that he is not gifted in these areas. He does not have that unbelievable hunger and desire for the Lord at any cost. that hunger to run after Him and learn of Him. My husband owns and runs a business and that is his calling. to be able to help and give to others financially as well as other needs.o, I gotta go. my hubby is calling me to go!In Him, Chanin

May I say that you are the kind of man that it is easy for a girl to be under authority.:) You have the right tone and understanding I believe. I thank you for that!Awww shucks. :lol:1 Corinthians 11:1-16 1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. 2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. 5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. 6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. 8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. 9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. 10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. 12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God. 13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? 14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? 15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. 16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.I think this passage is worth deep prayer and meditation and sitting at the Lord’s feet to understand it clearly. We have all read this (passage) a thousand times before and I sure most did not put themselves through it again but have we touched the Spirit of these verses, or the letter. Why does Paul go against the common tradition of the day (Jewish men, cover their heads)? This based on revelation by the Holy Ghost and there certainly is nothing logical about it, but there is deep and profound spiritual significance. Let us remember that Adam was not the original man made by God, he was only half of that man, and the other half was Eve (woman). We are the same person split in two. How can I be contentious with myself (women) when I am the other side of a the same coin. Authority and submission is the basis for all of God’s structures. In the Godhead, Jesus is submissive but this does not affect his divinity. Concerning the Church Jesus is authority and we are submissive. Concerning the Church, man is authority and woman is submissive. This is not a tragedy for woman but it is a glorious position. Who wants to have authority anyway? Is not the greatest one the minister of the least? Is not the last made first? There is great reward for humbling one’s self to be “behind the scenes” while others get the glory, but God is not blind. Those with a true meaningful relationship with Him will not loose their place. We are here to live not to save souls, and this life we live is the light of men. We loose the life of the church when we loose God’s divine order (this is a general statement concerning all of God’s orders for they are not all bound up in authority and submission). We must never become desperate, even if the situation looks desperate. We should not let our environment dictate our order but the will of God in our Lord Jesus. This is a scary concept for some, but God may not require me to save any souls, but to plough the ground so that seeds (the word) may be planted. Nevertheless, a fully functioning church will produce life spontaneously, without our assessments of what is needed. The church has many in full time ministry to lost souls but how many are in full time ministry to the Lord (Exodus29:44And I will sanctify the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar: I will sanctify also both Aaron and his sons, to minister to me in the priest's office.)? Is this a acceptable to the church of today? Is it supported practically? These are the comely parts of the body that all decayed away. Are we taking advantage about being that peculiar people ordained to worship in Spirit and in truth. Are we really putting in as much into this great ministry as we are in putting out tracts knocking on doors, broadcasting producing seminarians and theologians? What have we done in the department of full time worship?1 Corinthians 12: 23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: 25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.James

. Are we really putting in as much into this great ministry as we are in putting out tracts knocking on doors, broadcasting producing seminarians and theologians? What have we done in the department of full time worship?Hi James,This is a very good point. It takes me back to the days at the Institute when the Church was often exhorted not to make a distinction between their sacred and secular life. In other words, everything that a believer does is spiritual and an act of worship. Our worship is not so much that we simply prostrate ourselves before God in our prayer closet, but that we prostrate ourselves before Him in public by utterly submitting to His Lordship. The Jews made Bible study to be the very highest form of worship. Personally I view our works for God in obedience to Him as proof that we are true worshippers. Obedience to do the works of Christ authenticate our worship. Many come to church and sing hymns and raise hands and consider it worship. We might call it 'lip service' if there is no real submission beyond the four walls. This is a great problem in the Church because a majority of the work is done by a small minority of the people; yet those same people sing hymns and verbalize worship. Jesus gave an answer to this when He said and why call ye me Lord Lord and do not the things I say? and again; this people draw nigh unto me with their mouths and honoureth me with their lips, but the heart is far from me. The greatest act of worship I can perform is to visit the fatherless and the widows in their affliction while keeping myself unspotted of the world. My body is and we as believers, are all the Temple of the Holy Ghost. From this Temple I am to offer up the praise unto God continually; that is, the fruit of my lips giving thanks to His name. My house shall be called the house of prayer, Christ said. Many Christians do not understand that this was why they were saved. The were saved to become the habitation of God by the Spirit. We are mobile tabernacles taking the light of God's glory everywhere we go. God Bless,-Robert

Jake writes:Ron, so are you telling me that Paul shifted back in forth in his life from a state of perfection to a state of fallenness based upon whether he was writing scripture or not? Soon as the writing instrument went down, sin came up? Zigging and zagging back and forth between perfection and sinfulness.No, but then you never listen anyway.

This is a very good point. It takes me back to the days at the Institute when the Church was often exhorted not to make a distinction between their sacred and secular life. In other words, everything that a believer does is spiritual and an act of worship. Our worship is not so much that we simply prostrate ourselves before God in our prayer closet, but that we prostrate ourselves before Him in public by utterly submitting to His Lordship.The Jews made Bible study to be the very highest form of worship. Personally I view our works for God in obedience to Him as proof that we are true worshippers. Obedience to do the works of Christ authenticate our worship. Many come to church and sing hymns and raise hands and consider it worship. We might call it 'lip service' if there is no real submission beyond the four walls.This is a great problem in the Church because a majority of the work is done by a small minority of the people; yet those same people sing hymns and verbalize worship. Jesus gave an answer to this when He said and why call ye me Lord Lord and do not the things I say? and again; this people draw nigh unto me with their mouths and honoureth me with their lips, but the heart is far from me.The greatest act of worship I can perform is to visit the fatherless and the widows in their affliction while keeping myself unspotted of the world. My body is and we as believers, are all the Temple of the Holy Ghost. From this Temple I am to offer up the praise unto God continually; that is, the fruit of my lips giving thanks to His name. My house shall be called the house of prayer, Christ said.Many Christians do not understand that this was why they were saved. The were saved to become the habitation of God by the Spirit. We are mobile tabernacles taking the light of God's glory everywhere we go.Hallelujah AMEN!

I hope I did not ever give the impression that women are useless... thats not what I believe at all, and those who know me from other websites understand that. Those who dont know me well yet, please dont have that impression of me.I think we are all slowly starting to get you brother ;-) So lets shift gears and discuss ways in which God allows women to participate in ministry in keeping with His order and scripture.You can probably tell that I am going to say this already but the prayer ministry is short handed desperately! Worship and praise songs, poetry and articles (God bless your soul Miss Chanin). Exhortation in needed(1 Corinthians 12:8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.); the lazy men (such as me) and women of the church need to be encouraged constantly and have their fire rekindled. Charity work in our own communities (James 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?) giving and showing mercy in the Spirit of Christ, in the beauty of Holiness are a glorious ministry that requires one to have Christ in their heart.