C H Spurgeon - Free Will, A Slave

Here is a sermon by Spurgeon. We should be able to read, agree or disagree but do it in love. I will not debate this as I know many will not agree with this but it is a good read. It's not posted to spark a war. If one is certain on their doctrine, that is a good thing. If this blesses others and promotes growth, that too is a good thing...For HIS glory alone -

A Sermon
(No. 52)

Delivered on Sabbath Morning, December 2, 1855, by the
REV. C. H. Spurgeon
At New Park Street Chapel, Southwark.

"And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."—John 5:40.

his is one of the great guns of the Arminians, mounted upon the top of their walls, and often discharged with terrible noise against the poor Christians called Calvinists. I intend to spike the gun this morning, or, rather, to turn it on the enemy, for it was never theirs; it was never cast at their foundry at all, but was intended to teach the very opposite doctrine to that which they assert. Usually, when the text is taken, the divisions are: First, that man has a will. Secondly, that he is entirely free. Thirdly, that men must make themselves willing to come to Christ, otherwise they will not be saved. Now, we shall have no such divisions; but we will endeavour to take a more calm look at the text; and not, because there happen to be the words "will," or "will not" in it, run away with the conclusion that it teaches the doctrine of free-will. It has already been proved beyond all controversy that free-will is nonsense. Freedom cannot belong to will any more than ponderability can belong to electricity. They are altogether different things. Free agency we may believe in, but free-will is simply ridiculous. The will is well known by all to be directed by the understanding, to be moved by motives, to be guided by other parts of the soul, and to be a secondary thing. Philosophy and religion both discard at once the very thought of free-will; and I will go as far as Martin Luther, in that strong assertion of his, where he says, "If any man doth ascribe aught of salvation, even the very least, to the free-will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright." It may seem a harsh sentiment; but he who in his soul believes that man does of his own free-will turn to God, cannot have been taught of God, for that is one of the first principles taught us when God begins with us, that we have neither will nor power, but that he gives both; that he is "Alpha and Omega" in the salvation of men.
Our four points, this morning, shall be: First—that every man is dead, because it says: "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." Secondly—that there is life in Jesus Christ: "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." Thirdly—that there is life in Christ Jesus for every one that comes for it: "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life;" implying that all who go will have life. And fourthly—the gist of the text lies here, that no man by nature ever will come to Christ, for the text says, "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." So far from asserting that men of their own wills ever do such a thing, it boldly and flatly denies it, and says, "Ye WILL NOT come to me, that ye might have life." Why, beloved, I am almost ready to exclaim, Have all free-willers no knowledge that they dare to run in the teeth of inspiration? Have all those that deny the doctrine of grace no sense? Have they so departed from God that they wrest this to prove free-will; whereas the text says, "Ye WILL NOT come to me that ye might have life."
I. First, then, our text implies THAT MEN BY NATURE ARE DEAD.
No being needs to go after life if he has life in himself. The text speaks very strongly when it says, "Ye will not come unto me, that ye might have life." Though it saith it not in words, yet it doth in effect affirm that men need a life more than they have themselves. My hearers, we are all dead unless we have been begotten unto a lively hope. First, we are all of us, by nature, legally dead—"In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt die the death," said God to Adam; and though Adam did not die in that moment naturally, he died legally; that is to say death was recorded against him. As soon as, at the Old Bailey, the judge puts on the black cap and pronounces the sentence, the man is reckoned to be dead at law. Though perhaps a month may intervene before he is brought on the scaffold to endure the sentence of the law, yet the law looks upon him as a dead man. It is impossible for him to transact anything. He cannot inherit, he cannot bequeath; he is nothing—he is a dead man. The country considers him not as being alive in it at all. There is an election—he is not asked for his vote because he is considered as dead. He is shut up in his condemned cell, and he is dead. Ah! and ye ungodly sinners who have never had life in Christ, ye are alive this morning, by reprieve, but do ye know that ye are legally dead; that God considers you as such, that in the day when your father Adam touched the fruit, and when you yourselves did sin, God, the Eternal Judge, put on the black cap and condemned you? You talk mightily of your own standing, and goodness, and morality—where is it? Scripture saith, ye are "condemned already." Ye are not to wait to be condemned at the judgment-day—that will be the execution of the sentence—ye are "condemned already." In the moment ye sinned; your names were all written in the black book of justice; every one was then sentenced by God to death, unless he found a substitute, in the person of Christ, for his sins. What would you think if you were to go into the Old Bailey, and see the condemned culprit sitting in his cell, laughing and merry? You would say, "The man is a fool, for he is condemned, and is to be executed; yet how merry he is." Ah! and how foolish is the worldly man, who, while sentence is recorded against him, lives in merriment and mirth! Do you think the sentence of God is of no effect? Thinkest thou that thy sin which is written with an iron pen on the rocks for ever hath no horrors in it? God hath said thou art condemned already. If thou wouldst but feel this, it would mingle bitters in thy sweet cups of joy; thy dances would be stopped, thy laughter quenched in sighing, if thou wouldst recollect that thou art condemned already. We ought all to weep, if we lay this to our souls: that by nature we have no life in God's sight; we are actually, positively condemned; death is recorded against us, and we are considered in ourselves now, in God's sight, as much dead as if we were actually cast into hell; we are condemned here by sin, we do not yet suffer the penalty of it, but it is written against us, and we are legally dead, nor can we find life unless we find legal life in the person of Christ, of which more by-and-by.
But, besides being legally dead, we are also spiritually dead. For not only did the sentence pass in the book, but it passed in the heart; it entered the conscience; it operated on the soul, on the judgment, on the imagination, and on everything. "In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die," was not only fulfilled by the sentence recorded, but by something which took place in Adam. Just as, in a certain moment, when this body shall die, the blood stops, the pulse ceases, the breath no longer comes from the lungs, so in the day that Adam did eat that fruit his soul died; his imagination lost its mighty power to climb into celestial things and see heaven, his will lost its power always to choose that which is good, his judgment lost all ability to judge between right and wrong decidedly and infallibly, though something was retained in conscience; his memory became tainted, liable to hold evil things, and let righteous things glide away; every power of him ceased as to its moral vitality. Goodness was the vitality of his powers—that departed. Virtue, holiness, integrity, these were the life of man; but when these departed man became dead. And now, every man, so far as spiritual things are concerned, is "dead in trespasses and sins" spiritually. Nor is the soul less dead in a carnal man, than the body is when committed to the grave; it is actually and positively dead—not by a metaphor, for Paul speaketh not in metaphor, when he affirms, "You hath he quickened who were dead in trespasses and sins." But my hearers, again, I would I could preach to your hearts concerning this subject. It was bad enough when I described death as having been recorded; but now I speak of it as having actually taken place in your hearts. Ye are not what ye once were; ye are not what ye were in Adam, not what ye were created. Man was made pure and holy. Ye are not the perfect creatures of which some boast; ye are altogether fallen, ye have gone out of the way, ye have become corrupt and filthy. Oh! listen not to the siren song of those who tell you of your moral dignity, and your mighty elevation in matters of salvation. Ye are not perfect; that great word, "ruin," is written on your heart; and death is stamped upon your spirit. Do not conceive, O moral man, that thou wilt be able to stand before God in thy morality, for thou art nothing but a carcass embalmed in legality, a corpse arrayed in some fine robes, but still corrupt in God's sight. And think not, O thou possessor of natural religion! that thou mayest by thine own might and power make thyself acceptable to God. Why, man! thou art dead! and thou mayest array the dead as gloriously as thou pleasest, but still it would be a solemn mockery. There lieth queen Cleopatra—put the crown upon her head, deck her in royal robes, let her sit in state; but what a cold chill runs through you when you pass by her. She is fair now, even in her death—but how horrible it is to stand by the side even of a dead queen, celebrated for her majestic beauty! So you may be glorious in your beauty, fair, and amiable, and lovely; you put the crown of honesty upon your head, and wear about you all the garments of uprightness, but unless God has quickened thee, O man! unless the Spirit has had dealings with thy soul, thou art in God's sight as obnoxious as the chilly corpse is to thyself. Thou wouldst not choose to live with a corpse sitting at thy table; nor doth God love that thou shouldst be in his sight. He is angry with thee every day, for thou art in sin—thou art in death. Oh! believe this; take it to thy soul; appropriate it, for it is most true that thou art dead, spiritually as well as legally.
The third kind of death is the consummation of the other two. It is eternal death. It is the execution of the legal sentence; it is the consummation of the spiritual death. Eternal death is the death of the soul; it takes place after the body has been laid in the grave, after the soul has departed from it. If legal death be terrible, it is because of its consequences; and if spiritual death be dreadful, it is because of that which shall succeed it. The two deaths of which we have spoken are the roots, and that death which is to come is the flower thereof. Oh! had I words that I might this morning attempt to depict to you what eternal death is. The soul has come before its Maker; the book has been opened; the sentence has been uttered; "Depart ye cursed" has shaken the universe, and made the very spheres dim with the frown of the Creator; the soul has departed to the depths where it is to dwell with others in eternal death. Oh! how horrible is its position now. Its bed is a bed of flame; the sights it sees are murdering ones that affright its spirit;. the sounds it hears are shrieks, and wails, and moans, and groans; all that its body knows is the infliction of miserable pain! It has the possession of unutterable woe, of unmitigated misery. The soul looks up. Hope is extinct—it is gone. It looks downward in dread and fear; remorse hath possessed its soul. It looks on the right hand—and the adamantine walls of fate keep it within its limits of torture. It looks on the left—and there the rampart of blazing fire forbids the scaling ladder of e'en a dreamy speculation of escape. It looks within and seeks for consolation there, but a gnawing worm hath entered into the soul. It looks about it—it has no friends to aid, no comforters, but tormentors in abundance. It knoweth nought of hope of deliverance; it hath heard the everlasting key of destiny turning in its awful wards, and it hath seen God take that key and hurl it down into the depth of eternity never to be found again. It hopeth not; it knoweth no escape; it guesseth not of deliverance; it pants for death, but death is too much its foe to be there; it longs that non-existence would swallow it up, but this eternal death is worse than annihilation. It pants for extermination as the laborer for his Sabbath; it longs that it might be swallowed up in nothingness just as would the galley slave long for freedom, but it cometh not—it is eternally dead. When eternity shall have rolled round multitudes of its everlasting cycles it shall still be dead. Forever knoweth no end; eternity cannot be spelled except in eternity. Still the soul seeth written o'er its head, "Thou art damned forever." It heareth howlings that are to be perpetual; it seeth flames which are unquenchable; it knoweth pains that are unmitigated; it hears a sentence that rolls not like the thunder of earth which soon is hushed—but onward, onward, onward, shaking the echoes of eternity—making thousands of years shake again with the horrid thunder of its dreadful sound—"Depart! depart! depart! ye cursed!" This is the eternal death.
II. Secondly, IN CHRIST JESUS THERE IS LIFE,
for he says: "Ye will not come to me that ye might have life." There is no life in God the Father for a sinner; there is no life in God the Spirit for a sinner apart from Jesus. The life of a sinner is in Christ. If you take the Father apart from the Son, though he loves his elect, and decrees that they shall live, yet life is only in his Son. If you take God the Spirit apart from Jesus Christ, though it is the Spirit that gives us spiritual life, yet it is life in Christ, life in the Son. We dare not, and cannot apply in the first place, either to God the Father, or to God the Holy Ghost for spiritual life. The first thing we are led to do when God brings us out of Egypt is to eat the Passover—the very first thing. The first means whereby we get life is by feeding upon the flesh and blood of the Son of God; living in him, trusting on him, believing in his grace and power. Our second thought was—there is life in Christ. We will show you there are three kinds of life in Christ, as there are three kinds of death.
First there is legal life in Christ. Just as every man by nature considered in Adam had a sentence of condemnation passed on him in the moment of Adam's sin, and more especially in the moment of his own first transgression, so I, if I be a believer, and you, if you trust in Christ, have had a legal sentence of acquittal passed on us through what Jesus Christ has done. O condemned sinner! Thou mayest be sitting this morning condemned like the prisoner in Newgate; but ere this day has passed away thou mayest be as clear from guilt as the angels above. There is such a thing as legal life in Christ, and, blessed be God! some of us enjoy it. We know our sins are pardoned because Christ suffered punishment for them; we know that we never can be punished ourselves, for Christ suffered in our stead. The Passover is slain for us; the lintel and door-post have been sprinkled, and the destroying angel can never touch us. For us there is no hell, although it blaze with terrible flame. Let Tophet be prepared of old, let its pile be wood and much smoke, we never can come there—Christ died for us, in our stead. What if there be racks of horrid torture? What if there be a sentence producing most horrible reverberations of thundering sounds? Yet neither rack, nor dungeon, nor thunder, are for us! In Christ Jesus we are now delivered. "There is therefore NOW no condemnation unto us who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
Sinner! Art thou legally condemned this morning? Dost thou feel that? Then, let me tell thee that faith in Christ will give thee a knowledge of thy legal acquittal. Beloved, it is no fancy that we are condemned for our sins, it is a reality. So, it is no fancy we are acquitted, it is a reality. A man about to be hanged, if he received a full pardon would feel it a great reality. He would say, "I have a full pardon; I cannot be touched now." That is just how I feel.

"Now freed from sin I walk at large,
The Saviour's blood's my full discharge,
At his dear feet content I lay,
A sinner saved, and homage pay."

Brethren, we have gained legal life in Christ, and such legal life that we cannot lose it. The sentence has gone against us once—now it has gone out for us. It is written, "THERE IS NOW NO CONDEMNATION," and that now will do as well for me in fifty years as it does now. Whatever time we live it will still be written, "There is therefore, now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus."
Then, secondly, there is spiritual life in Christ Jesus. As the man is spiritually dead, God has spiritual life for him, for there is not a need which is not supplied by Jesus, there is not an emptiness in the heart which Christ cannot fill; there is not a desolation which he cannot people, there is not a desert which he cannot make to blossom as the rose. O ye dead sinners! spiritually dead, there is life in Christ Jesus, for we have seen—yes! these eyes have seen—the dead live again; we have known the man whose soul was utterly corrupt, by the power of God seek after righteousness; we have known the man whose views were carnal, whose lusts were mighty, whose passions were strong, suddenly, by irresistible might from heaven, consecrate himself to Christ, and become a child of Jesus. We know that there is life in Christ Jesus, of a spiritual order; yea, more, we ourselves, in our own persons, have felt that there is spiritual life. Well can we remember when we sat in the house of prayer, as dead as the very seat on which we sat. We had listened for a long, long while to the sound of the gospel, but no effect followed, when suddenly, as if our ears had been opened by the fingers of some mighty angel, a sound entered into our heart. We thought we heard Jesus saying, "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." An irresistible hand put itself on our heart and crushed a prayer out of it. We never had a prayer before like that. We cried, "O God! have mercy upon me a sinner." Some of us for months felt a hand pressing us as if we had been grasped in a vice, and our souls bled drops of anguish. That misery was a sign of coming life. Persons when they are being drowned do not feel the pain so much as while they are being restored. Oh! we recollect those pains, those groans, that living strife that our soul had when it came to Christ. Ah! we can recollect the giving of our spiritual life as easily as could a man his restoration from the grave. We can suppose Lazarus to have remembered his resurrection, though not all the circumstances of it. So we, although we have forgotten a great deal, do recollect our giving ourselves to Christ. We can say to every sinner, however dead, there is life in Christ Jesus, though you may be rotten and corrupt in your grave. He who hath raised Lazarus hath raised us; and he can say, even to you, "Lazarus! come forth."
In the third place, there is eternal life in Christ Jesus. And, oh! if eternal death be terrible, eternal life is blessed; for he has said, "Where I am there shall my people be." "Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given unto me, be with me where I am, that they may behold my glory." "I give unto my sheep eternal life, and they shall never perish." Now, any Arminian that would preach from that text must buy a pair of India rubber lips, for I am sure he would need to stretch his mouth amazingly; he would never be able to speak the whole truth without winding about in a most mysterious manner. Eternal life—not a life which they are to lose, but eternal life. If I lost life in Adam I gained it in Christ; if I lost myself for ever I find myself for ever in Jesus Christ. Eternal life! Oh blessed thought! Our eyes will sparkle with joy and our souls bum with ecstasy in the thought that we have eternal life. Be quenched ye stars! let God put his finger on you—but my soul will live in bliss and joy. Put out thine eye O sun!—but mine eye shall "see the king in his beauty" when thine eye shall no more make the green earth laugh. And moon, be thou turned into blood!—but my blood shall ne'er be turned to nothingness; this spirit shall exist when thou hast ceased to be. And thou great world! thou mayest all subside, just as a moment's foam subsides upon the wave that bears it—but I have eternal life. O time! thou mayest see giant mountains dead and hidden in their graves; thou mayest see the stars like figs too ripe, falling from the tree, but thou shalt never, never see my spirit dead.
III. This brings us to the third point: that ETERNAL LIFE IS GIVEN TO ALL WHO COME FOR IT.
There never was a man who came to Christ for eternal life, for legal life, for spiritual life, who had not already received it, in some sense, and it was manifested to him that he had received it soon after he came. Let us take one or two texts—"He is able to save to the uttermost them that come unto him." Every man who comes to Christ will find that Christ is able to save him—not able to save him a little, to deliver him from a little sin, to keep him from a little trial, to carry him a little way and then drop him—but able to save him to the uttermost extent of his sin, unto the uttermost length of his trials, the uttermost depths of his sorrows, unto the uttermost duration of his existence. Christ says to every one who comes to him, "Come, poor sinner, thou needst not ask whether I have power to save. I will not ask thee how far thou hast gone into sin; I am able to save thee to the uttermost." And there is no one on earth can go beyond God's "uttermost."
Now another text: "Him that cometh to me, [mark the promises are nearly always to the coming ones] I will in no wise cast out." Every man that comes shall find the door of Christ's house opened—and the door of his heart too. Every man that comes—I say it in the broadest sense—shall find that Christ has mercy for him. The greatest absurdity in the world is to want to have a wider gospel than that recorded in Scripture. I preach that every man who believes shall be saved—that every man who comes shall find mercy. People ask me, "But suppose a man should come who was not chosen, would he be saved?" You go and suppose nonsense and I am not going to give you an answer. If a man is not chosen he will never come. When he does come it is a sure proof that he was chosen. Says one, "Suppose any one should go to Christ who had not been called of the Spirit." Stop, my brother, that is a supposition thou hast no right to make, for such a thing cannot happen; you only say it to entangle me, and you will not do that just yet. I say every man who comes to Christ shall be saved. I can say that as a Calvinist, or as a hyper-Calvinist, as plainly as you can say it. I have no narrower gospel than you have; only my gospel is on a solid foundation, whereas yours is built upon nothing but sand and rottenness. "Every man that cometh shall be saved, for no man cometh to me except the Father draw him." "But," says one, "suppose all the world should come, would Christ receive them?" Certainly, if all came; but then they won't come. I tell you all that come—aye, if they were as bad as devils, Christ would receive them; if they had all sin and filthiness running into their hearts as into a common sewer for the whole world, Christ would receive them. Another says, "I want to know about the rest of the people. May I go out and tell them—Jesus Christ died for every one of you? May I say—there is righteousness for everyone of you, there is life for every one of you?" No; you may not. You may say—there is life for every man that comes. But if you say there is life for one of those that do not believe, you utter a dangerous lie. If you tell them Jesus Christ was punished for their sins, and yet they will be lost, you tell a wilful falsehood. To think that God could punish Christ and then punish them—I wonder at your daring to have the impudence to say so! A good man was once preaching that there were harps and crowns in heaven for all his congregation; and then he wound up in a most solemn manner: "My dear friends, there are many for whom these things are prepared who will not get there." In fact, he made such a pitiful tale, as indeed he might do; but I tell you who he ought to have wept for—he ought to have wept for the angels of heaven and all the saints, because that would spoil heaven thoroughly. You know when you meet at Christmas, if you have lost your brother David and his seat is empty, you say: "Well, we always enjoyed Christmas, but there is a drawback to it now—poor David is dead and buried!" Think of the angels saying: "Ah! this is a beautiful heaven, but we don't like to see all those crowns up there with cobwebs on; we cannot endure that uninhabited street: we cannot behold yon empty thrones." And then, poor souls, they might begin talking to one another, and say, "we are none of us safe here for the promise was—"I give unto my sheep eternal life," and there is a lot of them in hell that God gave eternal life to; there is a number that Christ shed his blood for burning in the pit, and if they may be sent there, so may we. If we cannot trust one promise we cannot another." So heaven would lose its foundation, and fall. Away with your nonsensical gospel! God gives us a safe and solid one, built on covenant doings and covenant relationship, on eternal purposes and sure fulfillments.
IV. This brings us to the fourth point, THAT BY NATURE NO MAN WILL COME TO CHRIST,
for the text says, "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." I assert on Scripture authority from my text, that ye will not come unto Christ, that ye might have life. I tell you, I might preach to you for ever, I might borrow the eloquence of Demosthenes or of Cicero, but ye will not come unto Christ. I might beg of you on my knees, with tears in my eyes, and show you the horrors of hell and the joys of heaven, the sufficiency of Christ, and your own lost condition, but you would none of you come unto Christ of yourselves unless the Spirit that rested on Christ should draw you. It is true of all men in their natural condition that they will not come unto Christ. But, methinks I hear another of these babblers asking a question: "But could they not come if they liked?" My friend, I will reply to thee another time. That is not the question this morning. I am talking about whether they will, not whether they can. You will notice whenever you talk about free-will, the poor Arminian, in two seconds begins to talk about power, and he mixes up two subjects that should be kept apart. We will not take two subjects at once; we decline fighting two at the same time, if you please. Another day we will preach from this text—"No man can come except the Father draw him." But it is only the will we are talking of now; and it is certain that men will not come unto Christ, that they might have life. We might prove this from many texts of Scripture, but we will take one parable. You remember the parable where a certain king had a feast for his son, and bade a great number to come; the oxen and fatlings were killed, and he sent his messengers bidding many to the supper. Did they go to the feast? Ah, no; but they all, with one accord, began to make excuse. One said he had married a wife, and therefore he could not come, whereas he might have brought her with him. Another had bought a yoke of oxen, and went to prove them; but the feast was in the night-time, and he could not prove his oxen in the dark. Another had bought a piece of land, and wanted to see it; but I should not think he went to see it with a lantern. So they all made excuses and would not come. Well the king was determined to have the feast; so he said, "Go out into the highways and hedges, and" invite them—stop! not invite—"compel them to come in;" for even the ragged fellows in the hedges would never have come unless they were compelled. Take another parable:—A certain man had a vineyard; at the appointed season he sent one of his servants for his rent. What did they do to him? They beat that servant. He sent another; and they stoned him. He sent another and they killed him. And, at last, he said, "I will send them my son, they will reverence him." But what did they do? They said, "This is the heir, let us kill him, and cast him out of the vineyard." So they did. It is the same with all men by nature. The Son of God came, yet men rejected him. "Ye will not come to me that ye might have life." It would take too much time to mention any more Scripture proofs. We will, however, refer to the great doctrine of the fall. Any one who believes that man's will is entirely free, and that he can be saved by it, does not believe the fall. As I sometimes tell you, few preachers of religion do believe thoroughly the doctrine of the fall, or else they think that when Adam fell down he broke his little finger, and did not break his neck and ruin his race. Why, beloved, the fall broke man up entirely. It did not leave one power unimpaired; they were all shattered, and debased, and tarnished; like some mighty temple, the pillars might be there, the shaft, and the column, and the pilaster might be there; but they were all broken, though some of them retain their form and position. The conscience of man sometimes retains much of its tenderness—still it has fallen. The will, too, is not exempt. What though it is "the Lord Mayor of Mansoul," as Bunyan calls it?—the Lord Mayor goes wrong. The Lord Will-be-will was continually doing wrong. Your fallen nature was put out of order; your will, amongst other things, has clean gone astray from God. But I tell you what will be the best proof of that; it is the great fact that you never did meet a Christian in your life who ever said he came to Christ without Christ coming to him. You have heard a great many Arminian sermons, I dare say; but you never heard an Arminian prayer—for the saints in prayer appear as one in word, and deed and mind. An Arminian on his knees would pray desperately like a Calvinist. He cannot pray about free-will: there is no room for it. Fancy him praying, "Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists. Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not—that is the difference between me and them." That is a prayer for the devil, for nobody else would offer such a prayer as that. Ah! when they are preaching and talking very slowly, there may be wrong doctrine; but when they come to pray, the true thing slips out; they cannot help it. If a man talks very slowly, he may speak in a fine manner; but when he comes to talk fast, the old brogue of his country, where he was born, slips out. I ask you again, did you ever meet a Christian man who said, "I came to Christ without the power of the Spirit?" If you ever did meet such a man, you need have no hesitation in saying, "My dear sir, I quite believe it—and I believe you went away again without the power of the Spirit, and that you know nothing about the matter, and are in the gall of bitterness and the bond of iniquity." Do I hear one Christian man saying, "I sought Jesus before he sought me; I went to the Spirit, and the Spirit did not come to me"? No, beloved; we are obliged, each one of us, to put our hands to our hearts and say—

"Grace taught my soul to pray,
And made my eyes to o'erflow;
'Twas grace that kept me to this day,
And will not let me go."

Is there one here—a solitary one—man or woman, young or old, who can say, "I sought God before he sought me?" No; even you who are a little Arminian, will sing—

"O yes! I do love Jesus—
Because he first loved me."

Then, one more question. Do we not find, even after we have come to Christ, our soul is not free, but is kept by Christ? Do we not find times, even now, when to will is not present with us? There is a law in our members, warring against the law of our minds. Now, if those who are spiritually alive feel that their will is contrary to God, what shall we say of the man who is "dead in trespasses and sins"? It would be a marvelous absurdity to put the two on a level; and it would be still more absurd to put the dead before the living. No; the text is true, experience has branded it into our hearts. "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."
Now, we must tell you the reasons why men will not come unto Christ. The first is, because no man by nature thinks he wants Christ. By nature man conceives that he does not need Christ; he thinks that he has a robe of righteousness of his own, that he is well-dressed, that he is not naked, that he needs not Christ's blood to wash him, that he is not black or crimson, and needs no grace to purify him. No man knows his need until God shows it to him; and until the Holy Spirit reveals the necessity of pardon, no man will seek pardon. I may preach Christ for ever, but unless you feel you want Christ you will never come to him. A doctor may have a good shop, but nobody will buy his medicines until he feels he wants them.
The next reason is, because men do not like Christ's way of saving them. One says, "I do not like it because he makes me holy; I cannot drink or swear if he saved me." Another says, "It requires me to be so precise and puritanical, and I like a little more license." Another does not like it because it is so humbling; he does not like it because the "gate of heaven" is not quite high enough for his head, and he does not like stooping. That is the chief reason ye will not come to Christ, because ye cannot get to him with your heads straight up in the air; for Christ makes you stoop when you come. Another does not like it to be grace from first to last. "Oh!" he says, "If I might have a little honor." But when he hears it is all Christ or no Christ, a whole Christ or no Christ, he says, "I shall not come," and turns on his heel and goes away. Ah! proud sinners, ye will not come unto Christ. Ah! ignorant sinners, ye will not come unto Christ, because ye know nothing of him. And that is the third reason.
Men do not know his worth, for if they did they would come unto him. Why did not sailors go to America before Columbus went? Because they did not believe there was an America. Columbus had faith, therefore he went. He who hath faith in Christ goes to him. But you don't know Jesus; many of you never saw his beauteous face; you never saw how applicable his blood is to a sinner, how great is his atonement; and how all-sufficient are his merits. Therefore, "ye will not come to him."
And oh! my hearers, my last thought is a solemn one. I have preached that ye will not come. But some will say, "it is their sin that they do not come." IT IS SO. You will not come, but then your will is a sinful will. Some think that we "sew pillows to all armholes" when we preach this doctrine, but we don't. We do not set this down as being part of man's original nature, but as belonging to his fallen nature. It is sin that has brought you into this condition that you will not come. If you had not fallen, you would come to Christ the moment he was preached to you; but you do not come because of your sinfulness and crime. People excuse themselves because they have bad hearts. That is the most flimsy excuse in the world. Do not robbery and thieving come from a bad heart? Suppose a thief should say to a judge, "I could not help it, I had a bad heart." What would the judge say? "You rascal! why, if your heart is bad, I'll make the sentence heavier, for you are a villain indeed. Your excuse is nothing." The Almighty shall "laugh at them, and shall have them in derision." We do not preach this doctrine to excuse you, but to humble you. The possession of a bad nature is my fault as well as my terrible calamity. It is a sin that will always be charged on men; when they will not come unto Christ it is sin that keeps them away. He who does not preach that, I fear is not faithful to God and his conscience. Go home, then, with this thought; "I am by nature so perverse that I will not come unto Christ, and that wicked perversity of my nature is my sin. I deserve to be sent to hell for it." And if the thought does not humble you, the Spirit using it, no other can. This morning I have not preached human nature up, but I have preached it down. God humble us all. Amen.

Wonderful! I love C.H. Spurgeon, yet I do not call myself a Calvinist nor an Armenian.

You will not come, but then your will is a sinful will.

To deny that the two different theological claims don't cause division in the body would be dishonest. Therefor I must make a decision as to weather or not be apart of it, if it is worthy or not. As of right now I don't think it is because when I heard John Piper explain Calvinism as a new believer Satan immediately used it to show how God had not chosen me, of course, because I was unwanted! I must also say that other people who call themselves Christians are very ugly and wave a prideful banner of their Calvinist views and wear the banner loud and proud. I can't subscribe to that, and will not. However, I do love the truth that C H Spurgeon spells out. Blessed is our God and His Christ, our Lord Jesus!

Luther,toward the end of his treatise,The Bondage of the Will, wrote the following to Desiderius Erasmus (Roman Catholicism's top theologian and defender) for his insight in choosing to debate him over the issue of free-will.

"I give you [Erasmus] hearty praise and commendation on this further account—that you alone, in contrast with all others, have attacked the real thing, that is, the essential issue. You have not wearied me with those extraneous’ issues about the Papacy, purgatory, indulgences and such like—trifles, rather than issues—in respect of which almost all to date have sought my blood (though without success); you, and you alone, have seen the hinge on which all turns, and aimed for the vital spot. For that I heartily thank you; for it is more gratifying to me to deal with this issue [free-will], insofar as time and leisure permit me to do so...So it is not irreligious, idle, or superfluous, but in the highest degree wholesome and necessary, for a Christian to know whether or not his will has anything to do in matters pertaining to salvation. This is the hinge on which our discussion turns, the crucial issue between us.

Another quote which concurs with Spurgeon's article,

"Free-will is a nonentity, a thing consisting of name alone because man is a slave to sin."

Finally,

"If any man doth ascribe aught of salvation, even the very least, to the free-will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright."

Pre-Reformation men of God John Wycliffe and John Hus also opposed Roman Catholicism on their doctrine of free-willism.

May God's people be blessed by the truth presented here by Spurgeon.

Early Church Fathers preached a Libertarian Free Will position:

"On Man’s Free Will: What The Early Church Fathers Believed"

[Quotes are from The Ante-Nicene Fathers, ed. Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson; 1885-1887;
repr. 10 vols. Peabody, Mass.: Hendrickson, 1994. They are cited in A Dictionary of Early Christian
Beliefs, ed. David W. Bercot, Hendrickson, 2000.]

(Compiled by Frank A. DeCenso, Jr., 5/18/2010)

(A downloadable pdf version of this material may be accessed in the attachment located at the bottom of this post.)

· In the beginning, He made the human race with the power of thought and of choosing the truth and doing right, so that all men are without excuse before God.
(Justin Martyr, 160 AD, 1.177)

· Unless the human race has the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not responsible for their actions.
(Justin Martyr, 160 AD, 1.177)

. We maintain that each man acts rightly or sins by his free choice….Since God in the beginning made the race of angels and men with free will, they will justly suffer in eternal fire the punishment of whatever sins they have committed.
(Justin Martyr, 160 AD, 1.190)

· It was God’s desire for both angels and men, who were endowed with free will…that if they choose the things acceptable to Him, He would keep them from death and from punishment. However, if they did evil, He would punish each as He sees fit.
(Justin Martyr, 160 AD, 1.243)

· He created both angels and men free to do that which is righteous. And He appointed periods of time during which He knew it would be good for them to have the exercise of free will.
(Justin Martyr, 160 AD, 1.250)

· I have proved in what has been said that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault. Rather, each man is what he will appear to be through his own fault.
(Justin Martyr, 160 AD, 1.269)

· Each of these two orders of creatures [men and angels] was made free to act as it pleased. They did not have the nature of good, which again is with God alone. However, it is brought to perfection in men through their freedom of choice. In this manner, the bad man can be justly punished, having become depraved through his own fault. Likewise, the just man can be deservedly praised for his virtuous deeds, since in the exercise of his free choice, he refrained from transgressing the will of God.
(Tatian, 160 AD, 2.67)

· We were not created to die. Rather, we die by our own fault. Our free will has destroyed us. We who were free have become slaves. We have been sold through sin. Nothing evil has been created by God. We ourselves have manifested wickedness. But we, who have manifested it, are able again, to reject it.
(Tatian, 160 AD, 2.69)

· There is, therefore, nothing to hinder you from changing your evil manner of life, because you are a free man.
(Melito, 170 AD, 8.754)

· But man, being endowed with reason, and in this similar respect similar to God, having been made free in his will, and with power over himself, is himself his own cause that sometimes becomes wheat, and sometimes chaff.
(Irenaeus, 180 AD, 1.466)

· For God made man free from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the commandments of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God.
(Irenaeus, 180 AD, 1.518)

· Because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will (in whose likeness man was created), advice is always given to him to hold fast to the good, which is done through obedience to God. God has preserved the will of man free and under his own control. This is not merely in works, but also in faith.
(Irenaeus, 180 AD, 1.519)

· Nor, again, does God exercise compulsion upon anyone unwilling to accept the exercise of His skill…. They have been created free agents and possessed of power over themselves.
(Irenaeus, 180 AD, 1.523)

· We…have believed and are saved by voluntary choice.
(Clement of Alexandria, 195 AD, 2.217)

· Each one of us who sins with his own free will, chooses punishment. So the blame lies with him who chooses. God is without blame.
(Clement of Alexandria, 195 AD, 2.226)

· Neither praises nor censures, neither rewards nor punishments, are right if the soul does not have the power of inclination and disinclination and if evil is involuntary…. In no respect is God the author of evil. But since free choice and inclination originate sins,…punishments are justly inflicted.
(Clement of Alexandria, 195 AD, 2.319)

· We have heard from the Scriptures that self-determining choice and refusal have been given by the Lord to men. Therefore, we rest in the infallible criterion of faith, manifesting a willing spirit, since we have chosen life.
(Clement of Alexandria, 195 AD, 2.349)

· To obey or not to obey is in our own power, provided we do not have the excuse of ignorance.
(Clement of Alexandria, 195 AD, 2.353)

· Sin, then, is voluntary on my part.
(Clement of Alexandria, 195 AD, 2.362)

· The Lord clearly shows sins and transgressions to be in our own power, by prescribing modes of cure corresponding to the maladies.
(Clement of Alexandria, 195 AD, 2.363)

· Their estrangement is the result of free choice.
(Clement of Alexandria, 195 AD, 2.426)

· Believing and obeying are in our own power.
(Clement of Alexandria, 195 AD, 2.527)

· Nor will he who is saved be saved against his will, for he is not inanimate. But above all, he will speed to salvation voluntarily and of free choice.
(Clement of Alexandria, 195 AD, 2.534)

· Choice depended on the man as being free. But the gift depended on God as the Lord. And He gives to those who are willing, are exceedingly earnest, and who ask. So their salvation becomes their own. For God does not compel.
(Clement of Alexandria, 195 AD, 2.593)

· I find, then, that man was constituted free by God. He was master of his own will and power….Man is free, with a will either for obedience or resistance.
(Tertullian, 207 AD, 3.300, 301)

· You must necessarily correspond to the seed from which you sprang – if indeed it is true that the originator of our race and our sin, Adam, willed the sin which he committed.
(Tertullian, 212 AD, 4.51)

· God, who created [the world], did not nor does not, make evil….Now, man (who was brought into existence) was a creature endowed with a capacity of self-determination, yet he did not possess a sovereign intellect….Man, from the fact of his possessing a capacity for self-determination, brings forth evil….Since man has free will, a law has been given him by God, for a good purpose. For a law will not be laid down for an animal devoid of reason. Only a bridle and whip will be given it. In contrast, man has been given a commandment to perform, coupled with a penalty.
(Hippolytus, 225 AD, 5.151)

· The Word promulgated the divine commandments by declaring them. He thereby turned man from disobedience. He summoned man to liberty through a choice involving spontaneity – not by bringing him into servitude by force of necessity.
(Hippolytus, 225 AD, 5.152)

· Man is able to both will and not to will. He is endowed with power to do both.
(Hippolytus, 225 AD, 5.152)

· This is also clearly defined in the teaching of the church, that every rational soul has free will and volition….we are not forced by any necessity to act either rightly or wrongly.
(Origen, 225 AD, 4.240)

· It seems a plausible thing that rational natures, from whom the faculty of free will is never taken away, may be again subjected to movements of some kind.
(Origen, 225 AD, 4.272)

· Since those rational creatures themselves… were endowed with the power of free will, this freedom of the will incited each one to either progress (by imitation of God), or else it reduced a person to failure through negligence.
(Origen, 225 AD, 4.292)

· In the preaching of the church, there is included the doctrine concerning a just judgment of God. When this teaching is believed to be true, it incites those who hear it to live virtuously and to shun sin by all means. For they clearly acknowledge that things worthy of praise and blame are within our own power.
(Origen, 225 AD, 4.302)

· When he had given man all things for his service, he willed that man alone should be free. And lest an unbounded freedom would lead man into peril, He had laid down a command, in which man was taught that there was no evil in the fruit of the tree. Rather, he was forewarned that evil would arise if man were to exercise his free will in contempt of the law that had been given him….As a result, he could receive either worthy rewards or a just punishment. For he had in his own power that which he might choose to do.
(Novatian, 235 AD, 5.612)

· The liberty of believing or not believing is placed in free choice. In Deuteronomy, it says, ‘Look! I have set before your face life and death, good and evil. Choose for yourself life, that you may live.’”
(Cyprian, 250 AD, 5.547)

· Man was made with a free will…on account of his capacity of obeying or disobeying God. For this was the meaning of the gift of free will.
(Methodius, 290 AD, 6.362)

· I say that God – purposing to honor man in this manner and to grant him an understanding of better things – has given man the power of being able to do what he wishes. He commends the use of his power for better things. However, it is not that God deprives man again of free will. Rather, He wishes to point out the better way. For the power is present with man, and he receives the commandment. But God exhorts him to turn his power of choice to better things.
(Methodius, 290 AD, 6.362)

· I do not think that God urges man to obey His commandments, but then deprives him of the power to obey or disobey…. He does not give a command in order to take way the power that he has given. Rather, He gives it in order to bestow a better gift…in return for his rendered obedience to God. For man had power to withhold it. I say that man was made with free will.
(Methodius, 290 AD, 6.362)

· [Methodius] says that it is in our power to do, or to avoid doing, evil. Otherwise, we would not be punished for doing evil nor be rewarded for doing good.
(Methodius, 290 AD, 6.370, as quoted by Photius)

rnieman,

Will you please furnish us with such a list of quotes from these same men(Early Church Fathers)on the subject of baptism.

Thank you.

Thank you for taking time to post that list. I like the original article and agree with it. I won't say too much about all the quotes but I am thankful you took the time to reply.

Very good post brother krispy!

In fact I agree very much with a lot of teaching from inspired preaching form those who are or consider themselves to be in the Calvinist circle.

The main problem I have is when they try to explain the unexplainable like predestination. I for one love the fact of what the scriptures say in that God has chosen us and predestined us.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We need to remember that his foreknowledge comes before His predestination. Trying to explain this is where there arises problems.

Blessings...from brother rbanks

Hi Savannah, I'm curious, what would furninshing ECF's on baptism prove or not prove?

Thanks russ

Kripsy you're right those writings are not inspired, but non the less carry definite value and provide us with Church History. By the way I believe what I posted had the source and the gentlemen that compiled the list as well. Finally I also agree that a sentence here can be taken out of context. My point is that Pre and Post Nicene almost exclusively held to what would be considered a libertarian free will position. Obviously Augustine was not one of them that held to that.

Thanks, Russ

quote
The problem is that according to scripture the unregenerate man is dead. He has no choice but to choose sin. A dead man can not change himself. Only God can. Once God touches a man's heart that man is then enabled by God to choose obedience.
quote

Here is were the problem comes in at that many leave out man's responsibility according to the scriptures.

Blessings...from brother rbanks

Whether they know it or not, the teachings of many in the Calvinist movement are making God responsible for people being lost and ultimately perishing. The bible never makes God responsible because He gives everybody a measure of faith. There are some who refuse to act on it and others who reject it and God holds them responsible for not believing, because He desires all to be saved.

Blessings…from brother rbanks

a good word from a reformed brother http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPcMLYA0c8o&feature=relmfu

Amen Krispy,

Praise God He has given me His will in Christ Jesus. My free will, will only take me to one place; Hell.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi Krispy you wrote
"By the way, it's a very common misconception for people to think that Reformed Theology (i.e. Calvinsim) does not teach free will. In fact, it does. An unregenerate man has a choice to make. The problem is that according to scripture the unregenerate man is dead. He has no choice but to choose sin. A dead man can not change himself. Only God can. Once God touches a man's heart that man is then enabled by God to choose obedience."

The bottom line: in the C position man can only sin. Well in order for a will to be free, it has to have the ability to make choices be alternative actions. In the C position, there are no choices between alternative actions, thus not free.

Russ

quote

The bottom line: in the C position man can only sin. Well in order for a will to be free, it has to have the ability to make choices be alternative actions. In the C position, there are no choices between alternative actions, thus not free.
quote

Very good observation brother!

I praise God for the reformed brethren in their awakening to the scriptures and their zeal of preaching Christ with the anointing they have received.

But I praise God even more for the people He has saved in spite of their Calvinistic teachings.

Oh that more of these reformed brethren would be more baptized in the Spirit so that they would receive greater enlightenment so that God could use them in a greater measure.

Blessings...from brother rbanks

Could someone explain these words of Peter and the implications for this topic?

"Then Peter opened his mouth and said: In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality, but in every nation whoever fears Him and works rigtheousness is accepted by Him."

Did Peter really "perceive in truth?" Do men dead in sin work rigtheousness and fear the Lord? Did Noah? Did Job? Did Samuel? Did Joseph? Did Zechariah and Elizabeth? Did Simeon?

My question concerns the implication of statements regarding men's incapacity to do good? Is there a differentiation between being enslaved to sin and capacity to do righteousness or is this a state that co-exists in a man? If men are incapable of doing righteousness, please explain why it appears that the Holy Spirit led some writers to describe the lives and actions of these I have mentioned in the way the record contains them?

makrothumia

Romans was a letter written by Paul to the Christians in Rome.

:-)

Your turn.

makrothumia

Can any brother or sister point me to a work or message that addresses my question? I can follow to a great extent much of the teachings on total depravity, but whenever I regard some of the men and women I have mentioned, I get "lost in the maze" so to speak.

If any of you know where to point me, it might not only help myself, but those with similar questions. Knowing that we can only "know in part" - humbles me, but I am definitely open to the very real possibility that another person has received insight into this same question that I have not yet received.

makrothumia

I was pretty shocked and disappointed to read this by Spurgeon. He approaches it from a very antagonistic view and flatly called those who follow Jesus, but did not agree with his view of Calvinism, "enemies". WOW!

From the opening paragraph of the article containing Spurgeon's quotes-

This is one of the great guns of the Arminians, mounted upon the top of their walls, and often discharged with terrible noise against the poor Christians called Calvinists. I intend to spike the gun this morning, or, rather, to turn it on the enemy, for it was never theirs; it was never cast at their foundry at all

really..?!?!?! Spike a gun and turn it on the enemy... those who do not embrace his views on the topic....wow.

"Total depravity does not mean that people are as evil as possible. Rather, it means that even the good which a person may intend is faulty in its premise, false in its motive, and weak in its implementation; and there is no mere refinement of natural capacities that can correct this condition. Thus, even acts of generosity and altruism are in fact egoist acts in disguise. All good, consequently, is derived from God alone, and in no way through man."

It doesn't mean that and unregenerate person can't choose between evil or good. Even though any good they may do, will do absolutely nothing in regards to salvation.

Deut 24:16
16“Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons
be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for
his own sin.

Ezekiel 18: 19-20
19“Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live. 20“The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

Russ

In answer to Makrothumia we had a discussion about 5 years ago in these forums that exposes a lot of the reasons why these conversations go in circles. It is well worth a look.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=13000&forum=36&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=1

I have a feeling that we will not have any man-made label when we are with the Father... :)

"I'm not interested in debating this issue. All I wanted to do guys is clear up a couple of misconceptions that were being voiced.

We are brethren... I love my pentecostal brethren, and my fundamentalist brethren, and my arminian brethren. I rest at night knowing that in heaven we will all come together as Calvinists!

:-)

Krispy"

Amen Krispy! Amen....

Krispy:

Well played... took the words right out of my mouth!

We do have to be careful with the writings of the early church fathers. Their writings were not inspired and often times they promoted things that eventually warped into Catholic doctrine. On top of that it is very dangerous to quote one sentence in a rather large document or writing and hold that up for all to see with no context at all.

Ah-ha, that is true! They were not inspired writings. I don't think Calvin's writings were inspired, either.

By the way, it's a very common misconception for people to think that Reformed Theology (i.e. Calvinsim) does not teach free will. In fact, it does. An unregenerate man has a choice to make. The problem is that according to scripture the unregenerate man is dead. He has no choice but to choose sin. A dead man can not change himself. Only God can. Once God touches a man's heart that man is then enabled by God to choose obedience.

Can an unregenerate man "RECEIVE"? We are not talking about sinning when we talk about John 1:12. We were created as receptive creatures and we choose to receive from one of two sources. His own, chose not to receive Him, but others chose TO RECEIVE Him.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

"Did you receive the Spirit by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?".

Faith is integral to "Receiving" as Paul here is taking the Galatians back to their initial receptivity of Jesus Christ by faith (and not works).

Does the Bible say that God has given every man a measure of faith?

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

If all men have a measure of faith and faith is integral to receiving Jesus, why can't men, when confronted with the truth, choose to receive Jesus? In fact, this is what they do.

Receiving is linked with believing faith.

Now, God commands men everywhere to repent.

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Now if man has Total Inability (that is really what is meant by Total Depravity) to yield to God's command then why is God commanding men to repent?

I guess this is all men can do:
Lam 3:26 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.

Just hope that they were Unconditionally Elected.

Although, this man questioned other men as to what the course was that he should take.
Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

So, do we tell people to wait and hope for God's salvation or do we tell them what they need to do to get saved?

The difference between the Bible and Calvinism is that in the Bible the sinner believes and is saved and in Calvinism the sinner hopes that he is one of the "elect" and then waits for God to save him, IF he is.

If a man has free choice to reject Jesus Christ as Savior, then why does he not have the same free choice to accept and receive Him as Savior?

The problem with Calvinism is not what it teaches about the the Depravity of man, for Wesley, Arminius and Calvin all agree on the fallen state of man. But the problem with Calvinism is what it teaches ABOUT the result of this depravity. Total Depravity insists that man does not have a free will to trust Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.

Does this "depraved sinner" who has never heard the Gospel, have "ability"?

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Even God recognized that the wicked could do good.
Gen 31:24 And God came to Laban the Syrian in a dream by night, and said unto him, Take heed that thou speak not to Jacob either good or bad.

The principle of right action with a deceitful and wicked heart was confirmed by Jesus Christ.
Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

In the ultimate sense Jesus Christ is the only man who ever lived without sin (Heb 4:16) and always "went about doing good" (Acts 10:38). He was good because He was God. (Mark 10:18)

As Calvinist Donald Grey Barnhouse explains, "Total Depravity does not mean that there is no good in man, but that there is no good in man that can satisfy God."

Calvinists get around the clear teaching of scripture by overwhelming it with theological terms. They have invented a difference between "relatively good works" and "truly good works."

Regarding depravity: Man sins by his own volition and desire, not because his will can only follow his nature. The problem with the will is whether to yield to the flesh or not.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Pilgrim

the contex ,of the verse that says god deals to each man a measure of faith ,,is the elect is delt a mesure of faith ,,the supanatural capasity to believe and trust in a supanatute gosple and a supanatural god ,this the nature man can not recieve ,,the natural man cannot not receive the things of the spirit as paul said ,,and jesus said these words i speak to you are spirit ,,

repentance is granted as the apostal paul said by god himself ,,,,to repent from sin ,,ones needs the conviction of the holy spirit which is the spirits minastry

with out conviction of the spirit one can never repent in a bibilical way
so in its fullest scence ,the natural man can only sin till god grants repentance ,iluminates ,and shows the man his sins

roms 2 is talking about us the gentiles who are under law towards christ and not lost sinners

what ever is not for the glory of god ,is sin

and that is the state of the natural man ,his motavation is never to do good for the glory of god as a primary motavation ,,,for he is a child of wrath ,,indwelt with the spirit of the prince and the power of the air ,which is the spirit that worketh in the sons of disobedance

a child of wrath acts according to this spirit which is in every son and daughter of adam and visa verser

a child of wrath cant take out the old spirit
and he cant take out his old heart ,and wright gods laws on that heart

and untill this begines to to happen , he is bound to sin as the slave of sin that he is ,,he is a man of flesh to the core to the heart ,and sin is what springs forth from the man in ths condition ,,as good as he may apear with good works and nice words ,,it still remains sin ,he will still serve his master sin and satan ,till god interveans ,,,and when gods enterveans and begines to transfome the will and desires by supanatural workings of his spirit ,,some men irasistable chosse god after he choses them ,,and others resist the beginings of the working of the spirit to which as the bible say they were also apointed

its all of god ,, let god be true and let every man be a lier ,,,,and if the nature man be a lier ,he is stained,,and god does not concider his works as good ,,but hipocracy

blessings

i think paul was clearly teaching that all men are not good ,,,and will not do good and will not and do not seek after god ,,,,he aplied this not only the sinning gentils ,but also to all the jews that every moouth may stoped ,,,,not in just the eary generatons of man ,not just in his gerneration,,,but all the generations ,,,the whole world is guilty and does not see after god nor do good accoring to the holy spirit

there is to be no such son of adam that arise from the seed of adam ,thats mouth should not be stoped by this scripture ,

paull say no we are as bad as the pagan idolerter

i have provedd to you paull says all are under sin and none are capable of doing good in this state of utter reblion ,,not even the jew

the whole race of men are under sin and fear not god

paul implys ,it goes with out even saying that gentiles who know not god are condemend,, but what the law says it says to us jews who are under the law ,,that even our self rightous mouths may be shut ,and we as gods chossen should stand with the gentils as guilty before god
10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”[b]
13 “Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”; [c]
“The poison of asps is under their lips”; [d]
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”[e]
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”[f]
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[g]

21 ,,the righoeousness of god apart from the law is now manfest,,,being witness by the law and propherts

the only good and righeous acts that men do are only done in christ accoring to grace and regeneration and accoring to his imputed righeousness everything out side this plan is utter sin and that is the state of the nature man dead in sin

roms 3.22 even the righeousness of god which is by faith unto all upon all who believe,,,
there is no god ordaind good people apart from those who are in christ ,accoring to the imputation of christs righteousness

all have sinned and fall short of gods glory
natural man actions allways fall short of the righteousness of god ,,,,he is the standared of good

natural mans actions do not come close to be called good

paris reiadhead talks about the humanisic prinicaple behind even the best actions of men who dont do acoring to the glory of god as a motavation

one drop of septic sewerage waste water into bucket of water defiles and makes the water bad ,even so one drop of sin in the nature of natural man spoils him ,and he is not axceptable to god in that state ,,,,nothing can the bucket do to change the foul water ,,if it remains like that it will only stagnate and get worse and worse ,,,but the one who made the bucket can tip the old water of self out and refil it with new wine ,that is exceptable to god

the old man with the adamic natural in his best state can in some cases want to do good ,he finds not the ability to perform that which is good ,,for his will is inslaved to his emotions and afections which are evil

it is not him who wills,nor him who runs but god who shows mercy

some one will say ,who can resists gods sovern will
is there unrigheousness with god ,,why does he still find fault

shale the think formed say to him who form it
whay have you made me this way

who are you to speak back to god
he has mercy on whom he will have mercy
and he hardends whom he hardens

18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

the bondage of the will and predestanation and human depravity ,and persaverance of the saints are all lincks in the chain of gods sovernty

much blessings to all my brothers and sisters under all gods tabernacals of christian understanding

To deny that the two different theological claims don't cause division in the body would be dishonest. Therefor I must make a decision as to weather or not be apart of it, if it is worthy or not. As of right now I don't think it is because when I heard John Piper explain Calvinism as a new believer Satan immediately used it to show how God had not chosen me, of course, because I was unwanted! I must also say that other people who call themselves Christians are very ugly and wave a prideful banner of their Calvinist views and wear the banner loud and proud. I can't subscribe to that, and will not. However, I do love the truth that C H Spurgeon spells out. Blessed is our God and His Christ, our Lord Jesus!

I agree, I believe these theological claims can cause people's hearts to harden, especially to the new born doubting that they well be saved because of these men's theories. Its very dangerous to teach such a thing, remember
that we should be humble and treat each other with love. My brothers and sisters should we trust our salvation through these men and their theories or should we trust that by faith through Jesus Christ, Our purpose of being True Christians is that to preach the gospel to everyone. Its been eight months since i gave my life to the Lord. I have learned much by hearing sermons from this web site. But I know in my heart that Calvinist and Armenians may cause us new born to fall hard. Please don't get offended brothers and sisters. Im just saying what comes from my heart.

God Bless
David C

Thank you for your post dear brother,

I consider myself both a Calvarist and Harmonian.

makrothumia

But I know in my heart that Calvinist and Armenians may cause us new born to fall hard.

How very true.

Preaching any man-made theological term is dangerous (Cal & Arm). Preach the cross and Jesus crucified. Walk the walk. Finish the race. Keep the faith.

Leave all the rest.

Preaching any man-made theological term is dangerous (Cal & Arm). Preach the cross and Jesus crucified. Walk the walk. Finish the race. Keep the faith.

Leave all the rest

Amen!

i rember tozer saying he smiles when he hears someone say i dont believe in creeds he said when ever apersons says i believe in for instance only teaching the cross of christ and nothing else ,,by defenition that becomes there creed

in all respect as a teacher or a lerner to not teach the full bible every verse ,and no not learn the full bible ,,is off balance,,and results in only knowing part of the truth ,,or worse only teaching part of the truth

weather we like it or not we will believe or have convictions regarding the points of what people call calvinisn

I disagree.

I happen to believe that Reformed Theology IS biblical theology... otherwise I wouldnt believe it. Why would someone willfully believe in a theology that they thought wasnt Biblical? Your statement doesnt even make sense.

I have to laugh when people say "I reject theology, I just believe the Bible." Well, just believing the Bible is theology.

Theology is by definition "The Study of God".

Believing in God is theology. What you think about God is theology. When you read the Bible and learn something... thats theology.

Saying things like "I hate doctrine, I just love the cross" is unscriptural. Paul commanded all of us to study to show ourselves approved... and commended the Bereans for searching the scriptures daily to see if what they were being taught was true. We are commanded all thru the New Testament to be of sound DOCTRINE.

To reject that is to reject the Bible, my brothers. It sounds real spiritual to say we only believe in the cross... and thats a good thing to seek the cross... but to say we reject theology and doctrine is to completely ignore what Paul said and commanded... and thus the Holy Spirit.

You can disagree Krispy. You've been wrong before. It's ok. :)

I am not sure what you are talking about though. Most all of the points you made, I did not say or claim.

Theology is not a bad thing. Theological terms that are man-made (i.e. Cal, Arm, etc..) are not ok.

What are you Krispy? Are you a Calvinist, or a Christian? Which one is spoken of, BY NAME, in the Bible? I'll give you a hint, it's not Calvinism.

Here is a quote that is good to live by, by Paul Washer

“Anytime your banner becomes anything other than Jesus Christ you ought to be afraid of Hell. If your banner is “I’m a Calvinist”, if your banner is “I’m a homeschooler”, if your banner is this, that, or anything else, if you’re rallying under any other name than Jesus Christ; you’re in danger. You are in danger!”~Paul Washer…

Am I a Calvinist? Yep... and I am a football coach... and a Conservative Republican... and a firearms instructor... and a father... and etc etc...

Ok.

I'm a Christian.

Krispy Kritter stated

I take it that you have not read many of Spurgeon's sermons before today, Solomon?

Actually I have had the green full hard cover set of Spurgeon's Complete Sermons since my college days. I have read most all of them. Some many times.
I either did not notice this theological chip on his shoulder or just let it go as I ate the fish and left the bones.

Krispy further stated

Up until our over senstive and easily offended age preachers often used language that we would consider to be inflammatory. What you quoted from Spurgeon is pretty mild by comparison to others of that age and before.

I have certainly read much of it before. Luther is a common example most would know of. However, to lay the blame on "overly sensitive preachers" is, it seems to me, a considerable misappropriation of responsibility and a plain old error. It is not so much "the overly sensitive preachers" as the overly INSENSITIVE ones using their pulpit as a place to blast other believers in Christ that will not submit to their specific theological view.... regardless of the flaws Spurgeon's view contained. Spurgeon flatly called people who do not agree with his specific theological Calvinistic view "enemies.. that he would turn the guns on". Wonderful isn't it?!?!?! That would seem to ultimately be simple arrogance. That would certainly seem to be an example of "sowing discord amongst the bretheren". Something God specifically said He hates. However, my experience has been that a great many Calvinists ( certainly not all) do not even believe that those who will not submit to their yoke and brand of theology are even born again. I have seen that again, and again. Although he denies it in other places one wonders of Spurgeon on this matter. WHY would he call other believers "The enemy"?? It is abundantly clear in scripture who "the enemy" is. Perhaps we see a Fraudian slip in Spurgeon's tongue here. Just perhaps he actually meant what he said... he sees any of those who are not lining up and marching to his tune of Calvinism as "the enemy"...ones not even of God's kingdom but of the enemies.

Krispy also stated

We've just become soft and feminized and cant handle it.

So you then agree with Spurgeon's way of presenting this? You feel the problem is the "softness" of the blood bought followers of Jesus that Spurgeon calls "the enemy" simply because they will not be bent into his mold? He also makes several remarks about the truth of his being "obviously so" and indicates that if you do not agree with him you are a simpleton. REALLY?!?!?

I am in a church that is about 60% male attenders. Hard working, hunting, fishing, farming, mostly blue collar, salt of the earth men that tend to eat lots of red meat. We lean strong to the testosterone side of things because every other fellowship in the area is on hyper estrogen overload. I attend church with guys that drive 4 wheel drives, skin deer, bale hay, can catch fish at will, work an honest days work plus some extra, spend time with their wives, take their kids on outings with them, live by the order of God- family-country, fire up the grill and invite their neighbors over for steaks so they can share their faith in Christ with them. However, they also generally know how to live at peace with people and are not accusing others simply because they refuse to agree with a particular theological point. They may be a lot of things but "femenized" is absolutely NOT IN ANY POSSIBLE WAY one of them. It is offensive and presumptuous to make that accusation of those who take exception to Spurgeon's attacks on those who won't bend their knee to his devotion to John Calvin.

With Spurgeon it seems one must eat the hay and leave the sticks. He certainly has some wonderful hay amongst his writing. That is why I own and read his sermons.For those parts I am thankful. However, his sowing of name calling, strife, discord, and the labeling of Christ's followers as "the enemy" is one batch of sticks It would seem we would all do well to avoid.

Krispy,

I did cut and paste your quotes.

However, if it is a problem then simply change it to , "overly sensitive age" or "overly sensitive people". Whichever you feel more accurately reflects your thoughts and address the rest of the post.

It changes nothing as far as the content of mine.

good points have been made, the greatest danger to me is even tho we might find Spurgeons views and interpretation a very good match to our own and what we believe the word says, or wesley, or ravenhill or the church fathers. Or Piper, washer etc...

Is when we, ill take myself as an example, i started out more reformed in my begining of my christian walk, but after years of study, learning some greek etc etc i changed many of my views on reformed theology. I still belive much of reformed theology to be what the bible says but not all.

Still the danger that comes is when we do embrace a theology or a "petdoctrine" as our leaning, is when we come to the parts of scripture that does not "fit" our doctrine that we deal with them in an dishonest fashion.

I have done that...

we use phrases like

"that does not really mean ALL..."

or something else. When we try make out some parts of scripture where not written to believers etc.

this is very dangerous, or we use 500 words to describe what is really meant by the use of one word that even a child will understand. to keep our "favorite" doctrine intact.

Myself stopped this, and found i need not 5 points, even tho i find some truths in all 5 points of calvinism to some extent, they are not the FULL truth.

and i must be ready to say when i come to certain passgaes in scripture... It is all by God, i have nothing to do with my salvation, sanctification, ability to endure or atone for one single thing, i am but a filthy worm...

These i see and believe.

But I also find passages that speak of me holding fast or else... passages that tell me to do this or that or else...

And if the first or latter do not match up to my doctrine or theology, to deal dishonest about them is dangerous, and i have yet to find passages explained by any side to a satesfactory way to "fit in" into these doctrines, i read 20 commentarys on one verse to see on one perticular side what they said and i did not find one single answer that in a way dealt with the verse in a way i found satesfying to but is actually written there.

So in this twisting and bending scripture to safeguard our belifs are dangerous and se very much i am sad to say.

Better yet to say "I do not know...." but God knows..

Some say well as Krispy said and i agree, study study study, but no matter how much we study who can answer how can God be a man and god at the same time? how big is God?

we can not answer these questions, and as Tozer said, more intellectual women and men has tried to understand these mysteries for hundreds of years, yet we are so formed that we think we have solved it. And we may have for ourselves.

I think Keith Daniels sermon on this topic is very good, agree on some or little i think some good for all of us in it to ponder.

God bless the calvinists and the rest, may God bear fruit from us all as we are the pillars of truth...

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=19110&commentView=itemComments

It sounds spiritual to say "I'm just a Christian"...

You keep saying this Krispy. Why? Who is saying that "it sounds spiritual", but you.?.?

If you have issue with saying "I am a Christian", please take it up with the Lord, for it is in the book that He wrote.

...but where the rubber meets the road is when we have to go out and be that influence in the world around us.

I agree 100%. Let's go preach the cross and Christ crucified, not some man made theological term. Let's show the world what and who a Christian is in Christ. Let us carry our crosses. Let us feed the poor, help the widows, fullfill the Great Commission.

Let us not spread the theological terminology of men.

Peter was a Christian who was a fisherman.

Yet, a fisherman is not a theology, unless you want to say that being a fisher of men is a theology, which we may agree on.

Be blessed Krisper

but at the same time, with all the divisions and variances of doctrine and theology I am rather grateful for labels.

Brother should we label ourselves just because of many theologies and doctrines that are out there. Should we worry about labels or knowing the TRUTH through Christ and Christ only. I saw a video about this brother who claims to be a Calvinist and says that "its better to label ourselves because the word Christian is misused". Well i agree with the word Christian getting misused and anyone could call their selves Christian, but we should not label ourselves anything but Christians, we should should let Christ decide who are His sheep, who are His true followers and we should stop arguing about men's doctrine and start praying for understanding of knowledge, again please don't get offended brother.

God Bless
David C

paul labeled him self a pharisee after he was a christan ,,and we complain when some calles them self an arminian or calvinists ,,,how is this strange to me

i concidered a pharisse as a sect that was corupt hipacreats ,but paul was pleased to call him self one ,in the book of the acts ,,,,was he sinnng when he used the lable ,,,,,i wouldent go that far

it is the motavation behind the one who lables him self wich is sinfull

now unless we are allways 100 correct in prophect desernment ,, we should not judge people as sinning with out realy knowing the fruit in there life and what is motavating them to call them self a whatever

blessings

paul labeled him self a pharisee after he was a christan ,,and we complain when some calles them self an arminian or calvinists ,,,how is this strange to me

i concidered a pharisse as a sect that was corupt hipacreats ,but paul was pleased to call him self one ,in the book of the acts ,,,,was he sinnng when he used the lable ,,,,,i wouldent go that far

Who said anything about sinning?

it is the motavation behind the one who lables him self wich is sinfull

I agree

now unless we are allways 100 correct in prophect desernment ,, we should not judge people as sinning with out realy knowing the fruit in there life and what is motavating them to call them self a whatever

Again, who said anything about sinning?

Really guys... Maybe I am missing something here, but implications are being made without any merit.

If you feel more comfortable calling yourself something to distinguish yourself, then call yourself what ever you wish. I'll stick with the Bible and the inspired Word over what a mere human says. Bible wins out each time guys.

Blessings from your brother in Christ, who is a Christian...

your welcome krispy,,,,i was just sharing part of my conversion experance as i see it ,,it just so happens to be of a reformed theolalogical experance

all im saying mica brother ,,is if it is not sinning to call ones self a calvinist or arimian ,,,then why be concerned with people that have that lable

the bible does win out brother true ,,that wyes i mentioned IN the bible paull called him self a pharisse

the reason why i mentioned sin was because an impure motavation to call ones self even a chrisian is sin full

what is not of faoith is sin ,,the bible says

so when someone bluts out the i am a calvinist,or a christan from a proud heart or proud effection it is sinfull ,because it was not said in faith

i wasnt caling any one here sinfull

blessings

Thank you for the clarification brother. :)

paul labeled him self a pharisee after he was a christan ,,and we complain when some calles them self an arminian or calvinists ,,,how is this strange to me

Paul labeled himself a pharisee because of this (" Paul realized that some members of the high council were Sadducees and some were Pharisees, so he shouted, “Brothers, I am a Pharisee, as were my ancestors! And I am on trial because my hope is in the resurrection of the dead!”" Acts23:6). Paul pretty much knew that the Pharisees would agree with him because of what the pharisees believe and what the Sadducees didnt believe (" for the Sadducees say there is no resurrection or angels or spirits, but the Pharisees believe in all of these." Acts23:8). Which caused them to divide. So Paul called himself a Pharisee because they believe of what is written in THE LAW.

In these days they are so many different believes, theologies, and doctrines. But there's one Truth, one true doctrine, and one true theology,. The Bible, Jesus Christ, Word of God, anyone whos against His theaching is against him and many of these other doctrines says something different, thats why its so strange to be labeled by some mens name like saying "im a follower of calvin or armenian, ect."

I call my self a Christian not because im better than any other men, but because I believe in Jesus Christ's Doctrines

Definition of CHRISTIAN

1
a : one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ

Thats all i got to say brothers and sisters,

God Bless
David C

“Theology is a head trip. Puffs up one's intellect. Does nothing for the heart. Very few theologians live out that simple and pure devotion to Jesus.

Time spent in the presence of Christ in prayer and his word does more good to ones soul than theological abstracts.”

Some of the responses to the original thread are alarming. We all know to study God is theology. Sure if someone is digging into their bibles only to fuel up for the next debate, I would agree with the above statement. BUT – if one has a true hunger for the word, a deep hunger for God and to follow hard after HIM. They will study. The person will study the attributes of God; they will study out of love, because they want to get closer to Jesus. Not just through written word but through prayer and worship….I strongly disagree with you that it is a ‘head trip, it puffs ones intellect and does nothing for the heart'.

And as for the Calvinist/Aremianin comments…. We all know we follow Christ. I don’t say I am a “smithist” because my pastor’s name is Smith. We use those terms because they are easy to understand. I hold more of a reform overtone…I don’t say “Hi, I’m a reformist, or a Calvanist, or a any other title, I am a sinner, saved by the grace of God! I will say this, ever since I have become more versed in reformed theology, my walk has become deeper, my devotion to Christ has become deeper, sin is more repulsive, and I have grown so much – not in ‘head knowledge’ but in love. That’s all I can say on this, if we spent as much time evangelizing/church planting as we argue about this stuff, the world would radically be changed. I still pray that this article would be a blessing to those who are searching……or struggling with its topic.

I dont know anyone who says "I'm a follower of Calvin"... or "I'm a follower of Arminius."

I apologize, i meant "I" would feel like labeling myself is like im a follower of Calvin or some other theologian. Besides labeling myself would just divide us and cause arguments instead of uniting the Body of Christ with Jesus Christ being the head. I just don't get why we label ourselves anything else other than a Christian. You said you believe in Jesus Christ's doctrine, but yet Calvin has a other ways of teaching, like for example, the teaching of predestination, I feel its a dangerous doctrine that would kill new born's faith. Jesus Christ has never said such a thing, He did said those who hear His voice to follow Him, and also died so that all men would be saved. (The example is just to show what i dont agree of so please dont argue with me).

Also why would you label your self a Calvinist? Is there a difference between Calvinist and Christian? It have to have something different between those two would you think?

David C

bearnaster,

You say,

"...the only way to look at scriptures is by a certain theological view point. I do not agree with this."

You then give your own 'certain theological view point' when you go on and say,

"The Holy Spirit is quite capable of teaching the believer those things to live a Christ centered life. For this you do not need theologians. Only a willing heart to sit at the feet of Jesus as Mary did."

I ask you...do you believe anything in regard to the doctrine stated in the original post?

If you say,"it doesn't matter",then I'd ask you why you're posting on this thread! Why not let those who believe something in regard to the doctrine stated carry on their discourse.

If you're contented and have reached your conclusions then bow out and let it be! There are some who are not of the same mind as you are. S.I. may be their Berea!

There may be even some others who have a great interest to settle this great debate within,that is,this great debate within their own hearts. And they are wrestling even now. Do not meddle with the One Who wrestles. And do not hinder them as to coming to a conclusion on this matter of the doctrine stated in the original post. When the sun goes down it may bring them peace and rest in their Beloved.

Now faith cometh not of our free-will; but is the gift of God, given us by grace, ere there be any will in our hearts to do the law of God. And why God giveth it not every man, I can give no reckoning of his judgments. But well I know, I never deserved it, nor prepared myself unto it; but ran another way clean contrary in my blindness, and sought not that way; but he sought me, and found me out, and showed it me, and therewith drew me to him. And I bow the knees of my heart unto God night and day, that he will show it all other men; and I suffer all that I can, to be a servant to open their eyes. For well I know they cannot see of themselves, before God hath prevented them with his grace.

Righteousness is even such faith; and is called God's righteousness, or righteousness that is of value before God. For it is God's gift, and it altereth a man, and changeth him into a new spiritual nature, and maketh him free and liberal to pay every man his duty. For through faith a man is purged of his sins, and obtaineth lust unto the law of God; whereby he giveth God his honor, and payeth him that he oweth him; and unto men he doeth service willingly, wherewithsoever he can, and payeth every man his duty. Such righteousness can nature, free-will, and our own strength, never bring to pass. For as no man can give himself faith, so can he not take away unbelief; how then can he take away any sin at all? Wherefore all is false hypocrisy and sin, whatsoever is done without faith or in unbelief, as it is evident in the fourteenth chapter unto the Romans, though it appear never so glorious or beautiful outwards. - William Tyndale

Tyndale said
"Now faith cometh not of our free-will; but is the gift of God, given us by grace, ere there be any will in our hearts to do the law of God."

Ephesians 2:5,8 says the following:

5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved

8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God

This gift here is not faith but rather salvation and is received by faith.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Grace is not a work of man by any estimation, also faith in this saving Grace cannot be of works either, thus making saving faith not of mans works unto salvation either. All man can do is "believe". Even this believing cannot come from man, but must be administered through the Holy Spirit conviction of sin and bringing to light the conviction of the heart that a living Savior is needed to usher a lost sinner into the Kingdom of God. Neither Grace or Faith is of man, but of God. My faith believes that the Sun will rise, because I see it.

Saving Faith:

Hebrews 11:1-3 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

This saving faith given not by things seen, but appesrs by the Faith of the Son of God administered by the Holy Spirit in the New Heart of Salvations new birth of the Son of God, put in the one given to believe, that, "Jesus Christ is the Son of God". "Not of Works, lest any man should boast".

1 Peter 1:19-25 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

The Living Word Himself has been born again in those that believe.

THE Living Word; John 1:1-7 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

Through Him we believe:

In Christ: Phillip

hi, so what you are saying is that Jesus is not able to keep you or that what you committed to against that day.that jonah had free will... that saul of tarsus had free will... i am not a calvinist but when you read the bible without bias the facts on both sides jump out at you... jimp

hi, falling away is something that the jews understand for not all of the family of israel where worshippers of YHWH. the fact is all members of the body of Christ are worshippers of Jesus and those that are hangers on are there for another reason. if the tribulation come and there is no rapture ,do you think there will be a falling away ? i am not holding on to my salvation;i am resting in the finished work of Jesus who told me that if i repent and believe into Him than i would have zoe life (eternal God like )and He is forever making intercession for me.He said that no man can pluck me out of His hand and that nothing in the earth or over the earth ,neither death nor life can change my position in Him.i serve a big God and i am some what insignificant in this matter for while i was yet a sinner He died for me because He loved me from before the foundation of the world.jimp

hi, yes this is why the term osas is no where in the doctrine of eternal security of the believer.a believer is continuing in his belief. we are into Christ and as we are in the tree of life we are not to fear or fret;we abide in Him. in all the years in my life ministering to folks, i have met more who were beat down by guilt and shame in that they somehow committed the unpardonable sin than those who were proud they walked away. i only know one man i would say that has crucified Jesus afresh with his unbelief but many who needed much teaching on how great God is and that His mercies do last forever.this is why i argue for security. i am not calvinist but maybe compassionist.Jesus blood was a dear price to pay for we who believe and it is a powerful agent that does not cover sin but takes it away.jimp

Here is where your theology (and any who believe salvation can be lost) goes right in the ditch. THIS is one of the dividing lines between saving faith, and every other kind of faith. ANY who preach that salvation can be lost are false teachers, period!

The ONLY way one can come to this conclussion, is to leave out verses in the Bible that do not fit their theology.

I admit that I lean more towards someone being able to loose their salvation, due to scripture, yet I know that I do not understand of all scripture yet :)

Careful on calling others who disagree with your interpretation of scripture false teachers. This is what most of the Pharasee did in their day, period.

My thoughts...it is a matter of a sound profession of faith....from the outside many seem to walk away, fall away or whatever term we decide to use...but reality is, were they ever saved?

With the watering down of much essential doctrine, we have been faced with a big mess. We have people who follow the religion of moral influence rather than coming to a sound profession of faith in Jesus Christ! We have many who refuse to accept the importance of sound theology and in essence preach heresy....leading to still born, inoculated false converts.

Sure on the outside they may appear to be saved, they may speak the language but there has never been regeneration....and so, days, weeks or even years pass and they walk away. (THIS is not to say we struggle and battle).

I again appreciate all the time many have taken to reply but I will rely on scripture when it comes to this topic...I will not post them all here because we all know them and know the ones we would use to debate them.....Yet - to close I will say this. If you are saved, you certainly did not save yourself...your life is not your own and Christ paid for you...you are HIS, and if you are a bond servant, there is no walking away!

JIG you wrote
"Hi Joe. The ditch is in the Greek grammar of your two verses. Both words "believe and believeth" are present active participles that should be translated as "continously believing". Many don't continue to believe."

Amen!. I've been reading your posts, you're sound like a Arminian of classical leaning.

Russ

hi Jesus is God, when you present the good news to folks do you tell them that Jesus died on calvarys tree for them but that is not enough...now it is up to you to endure to the end on your own...what sin is it that is greater then His blood that cancels your salvation... for if it is sin that does it has to be the first one...i do not unerstand this position for if God promises eternal zoe...what can you do to cancel this promise? He already won the victory over sin and death for you...i do understand that your sins will find you out and those sins of the flesh will be paid for on this earth in the flesh.we overcome by His blood and the word of our testimony and that is why i am continueing to plead that His blood is enough... this is the word of my testimony ..and i love not my life for i have reckoned myself dead unto sin ... i am already dead so how can i loose.jimp

Hi Jimp let me try to answer your question with a question. What is the purpose of the warning passages in scripture if they're not real in the first place(which would make them lies)?

Russ

Again, it is all about Scripture and interpretation of those Scriptures. No one can deny that to us humans, it reads as if both are correct.

Which leads me to understand that the Lord gives, and the Lord takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord!

Even as Eve gave Adam bad fruit in the garden,so it is that the fruit of bad doctrine is being presented on this thread to men by a woman.

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman, having been deluded, has come to be in transgression. 1 Tim. 2:14

If she were not deluded she'd clearly see that she is in transgression. Any woman who clearly sees will not kick against the goads as oxen,but will rather heed His Word;

Let a woman be learning in quietness with all submission. Now I am not permitting a woman to be teaching nor yet to be domineering over a man,, but to be in quietness. 1 Tim. 2:11,12

If the elementariness of the above verses were fundamentally understood and her spirit yielded thereto,unlike Eve,she'd build her house upon such a foundation rather than tear her own house down. I venture such woman is not married, and if she had been at one time it is no wonder she's not so any longer. There's no respect,nor submissiveness,nor reverence,nor shamefacedness,meekness or quietness. All which is commanded to the woman by our LORD in His Word.

But such contentious spirits we have in the daughters of Eve.

The Word will not restrain these spirits but will make them even the more contentious.

A continual dripping on a very rainy day and a contentious woman are alike. He who restrains her can stifle the wind and can dictate to oil in his right hand. Prov. 27:15,16

jimp,LeePadah,and Old_Joe, thanks for contributing to this thread as your posts have been refreshing.

Good Sermon by this topic by Keith Daniel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZeZJ-wvVaI&list=FLUiUiuuZ83oCFheD_GwPSAw&index=1&feature=plpp_video

, the Bible indicates that believers are children of God:

•The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. (Romans 8:16)

•You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, (Galatians 3:26)

•Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father." So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir. (Galatians 4:6-7)

•But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering. (Hebrews 2:9-10)

•And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons: "My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son." (Hebrews 12:5-6)

•How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. (1 John 3:1)

•Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)

•This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother. (1 John 3:10)

•We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. (1 John 5:19)

•Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- (John 1:12)

The is no breaking of Gods promises in these scriptures.

The greatest assurance in Scripture is Christ is birhted in the believer and the work He has begun He will finish.
Like Jesus The Father will not loose any He has given to the Son. Jesus declares this very word. If incorruptable Seed from the Father which is Jesus Christ is birthed in those that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, they are saved and free indeed and sons eternally. The Seed of Jesus Christ would have to be killed by abortion to confirm those that don't believe in eternal security and will loose their salvation if they don't do more good works that bad works, that they must give God a hand in their own salvation, The Cross was not enough.

1 John 5:11-13 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Romans 8:9-11 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now ((((((if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.)))))) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

The Seed of New Life in Christ in us that believe cannot be taken away, God is not an Indian giver or and abortionist. He will accomplish He word and it will not return void.

Please cite one verse in the Bible where God disowns one of His children, where God unpredestines a believer to be in Christ and the Seed of the Father in the believer taken out, where God disinherits a believer. Please cite one verse where God breaks a promise. The Bible says God's call is irrevocable. (Romans 11:29)19To the eternal security skeptic: Please cite one verse in the Bible where God uncalls a believer. To the eternal security skeptic: Please cite one verse in the Bible where God unseals a believer, cite one verse in the Bible where a believer can be unborn again.

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. (1 John 2:19)

You will never find that verse quoted by eternal security skeptics!

I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints. (Ephesians 1:18)

Study this very carefully;

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Eph 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
Eph 1:16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Hebrews 13:20-21 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

In Christ and Christ in me forever: Phillip

Old Joe,

You Posted

Quote:
Far too many verses that have been posted and can be that prove out that a person can "fall away" of their own freewill.

Each of those must be done at the expense of everlasting life.

It is real simple, right now do you have EVERLASTING life? Yes or no.

Friend, just because you can not make your human mind understand the scriptural concept in no way negates the truth of it. I refer not to you specifically, it is true for all of us.

Perhaps if I use a natural analogy such as you did.

If I had the ability to give you a flashlight that had eternal batteries and would never go out for all eternity then it could be said that I had given you eternal light. If how ever you choose to throw it into a trash can, have it hauled to the landfill and buried under a million pounds of debris then you would no longer posses the eternal light. It is the light of the flashlight in my analogy that is eternal... not your possession of it. It is yours as long as you choose to keep it. However, if you willingly choose to discard the flashlight then it is no longer yours.

IT IS THE LIGHT THAT IS ETERNAL IN MY ANALOGY...NOT YOUR POSSESSION OF IT.

The exact same ting is true in the issue of eternal life. The life is eternal.. however you may discard it if you choose to. The eternal life of God does not cease... just your part in it.

Again, far, far to many scriptures bear this out. You acknowledged that in your post. However, just because it is a difficult concept for your mind to grasp does not negate those truths in scripture.

I post this not to argue the point but rather to illustrate it more clearly.

Caps were used for emphasis on specific words only. No yelling was intended.

Blessings.

jimp,LeePadah,and Old_Joe, thanks for contributing to this thread as your posts have been refreshing.

lol, thanks! You gave me a smile this morning. Sorry for not being refrshing to you.

Your post sort of reminds me of these verses...

2 Timothy 4:2-4, "Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables."

Please note that I am not calling anyone in this post a false teacher. Blessings!

"Perhaps if I use a natural analogy..."

Your analogy is an insult to Christ and His Spirit which is given to His beloved ones. That Eternal Life is Christ Himself;

For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and testify, and show to you that eternal life which was with the Father, and was manifested to us. 1 John 1:2

It also fails miserably when tested by Scripture as I will briefy show;

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death: but the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

If you or any can rid yourself of death which reigns by sin,or to use your own words,"choose to throw it[death] into a trash can, have it hauled to the landfill and buried under a million pounds of debris",I'd seriously consider what you're attempting to prove. But none can!

You're either dead in transgressions and sins or alive in Christ. If you've not passed from death to life then you abide in death. Life or death is not a separate entity which can be divided from the being whch posseses it as you attempt to prove in your analogy.

Also,you'll see in the verse that follows,that what I've stated is no mere philosophical jargon. Note the words,'them' and 'they'. No disconnect between the person and the Life they posess.

John 10:28 And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of my hand.

And finally,to sum it all up;

Praise be to our Great God and Savior,

Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before the world began: But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 2 Tim.1:9,10

hi,many times i have typed this and told this; when one goes to an altar to make a dicision for Christ , he is going to make a decision to die ... altars are places of sacrifice.repentance is when you put your life to death and give the reigns to Jesus. gal:2 20 expplains this well. the problem we have is not eternal security but false security. with Jesus in charge of your life,you are secure.i have seen drastic changes in hundreds of people as the Holy Spirit takes over and begins the sanctification process...jimp

Not to offend anyone I will use a supernatural analogy.

When the martyr Jim Elliot said: " He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can never lose."

He is using the same language Jesus used comparing the temporal with the eternal.
He is basically saying that we can not keep our life here on earth because the days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.but if we give this life to God we will gain eternal life which will last forever and ever and ever.

Jesus used the same language when He said to not lay treasures on earth where moth eat and rust corrupt but rather lay treasures in heaven where it will last forever.
In the words of Peter: " an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you"

The case here that Jesus, the Apostles,or Jim Elliot are making is "Not" that eternal life can not be lost even if we are unfaithful but rather that eternal life compared to a temporal life is the inheritance of those who choose to trade this life for it.

Let me word it another way.
When Jim Elliot said:
" He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can never lose."

He is not saying that eternal life can not be lost by someone who will not remain faithful to the end. That is not at all what he is refering to.
He is rather saying that those who choose to trade this life that can easily be lost for one that can not be lost because of its very nature being eternal are not fools.

In other words, he, Jesus, and the Apostles are not discussing the unconditional eternal security of the believers but rather comparing two things that are vastly different in their nature and how fool it would be to hold onto the one with the temporal nature at the risk of loosing the one with the eternal nature.

Lord, give us wisdom.
God bless.

Old Joe asked

So Solomon and Bearmaster, do you have everlasting life or not?
OJ

Absolutely.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

Simple enough isn't it? IF we walk in the light.

@ Savannah - wow. How very sad. You make harsh statements against me largely because you did not understand the analogy. In fact by your statement it appears you misread and misunderstand the simple analogy by 180 degrees.

Calvinism, as it has become known, is a system that has key portions of it discredited with overwhelming landslides of scripture that say otherwise. I used to be ordained in a fellowship that is Calvinist and defended those Calvinistic positions until I honestly had to say I could no longer of good conscience do that.... simply because they were clearly inaccurate. I recognize that not all the points of Calvinism are so. Some points are certainly held by Calvinists and Arminians ... and others alike. However, there are some Calvinist posititions that contradict so many scriptures that it seems to be folly to defend them.

The historical accounts of Calvin simply setting himself up as a rival pope to Rome are just about right. He then started his own "Calvinistic Inquisitions" in his own little "Calvinistic Vatican" with the persecution, jailings, and martyrdom of Christians who would not submit to his particular brand of theology.

In actuality it always stems from the issue of the limited atonement. Calvin rejected the fact that Jesus died for the sins of the world and mankind (although it is crystal clear in scripture that Jesus did) and Calvin rather presented the idea that Jesus only died for a few. He of course said he was one of the few. Spiritual elitism was birthed in it then. Calvin , feeling he was one of the few "chosen" began to believe his understandings were the "enlightened" ones and others were not "elected" by God and therefore there beliefs were invalid. He further then required you to agree with his "enlightened" view or go to jail, be persecuted, or martyred. If you believed Jesus died for the sins of mankind you could be killed around Calvin. Sounds a great deal like Inquisitional Catholicism.

I hear that same 'superiority complex" in so many posts by Calvinistic "believers". It becomes clear that many do not believe anyone is saved that does not agree with their views.

Reread the original post in this thread. It is filled with elitism on Spurgeon's part in the first couple of paragraphs. He calls those who do not agree with his Calvinism , "enemies" that he will, "stuff the guns and turn them on them" , and so forth. He even states that his views are self evidently true and any who would disagree with him are , "simply ridiculous". I had held Spurgeon in high regard in bygone years... owning and reading most everything he has written or had recorded by other writers. However, I must say the esteem is greatly reduced that I had for him. It saddens me to see that happen... it saddens me worse to see that "spiritual elitism" on display in the day I live also.

If a person wishes to maintain a Calvinist view then that is their right to choose that based on their conscience. However, when I get called a "heretic" , as I have, because I believe ,"This is good, and pleases God our Savior, Who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. " it reveals the heart of the matter to me. 1 Tim 2;3-4. If these verses are true then every person that ends up in hell goes there outside the will of God. That is the crux of the difference. It can't be both ways... does God want them saved as stated in 1 Timothy... or not. If 1 Tim. 3 is true then the will of God is NOT done in every single one of those cases a person enters an eternal hell.

edited for clarity

Savannah wrote:
“It also fails miserably when tested by Scripture as I will briefy show;

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death: but the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Romans 6:8: Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

Notice in the greek that “believe” is in the Present Indicative Active tense, signifying not a onetime event of believing, but rather past, present, and future.

Savannah you seem to be divorcing eternal life from the past, present, and future tense of the words believe and faith in scripture, which is heavily emphasized throughout scripture. You continue on with:

“John 10:28 And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of my hand. “

But in John 10:25-28 we read-
25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Again Savannah look at the verb tense in verses 25-26 they are Present Indicative Active tense. Then read 27-28 and notice how “believe” in the PIA verb tense (past, present, & future) is married to “eternal life” . You’re incorrectly reading the text. Ongoing faith is married to eternal life, not a once upon a time faith married to eternal life. You continue with:

“And finally,to sum it all up;

Praise be to our Great God and Savior,

Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before the world began: But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 2 Tim.1:9,10”

In verse 9 we see “in Christ Jesus” corporate election. In verse 12 we read

12For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.

Verse 12 uses the word “believed”, which is in the Perfect indicative Active tense indicating similarly to the present indicative active tense, that it is indicating past, present, and future action.

Eternal life is married to ongoing faith, nowhere in these verses that you presented is your concept of eternal life apart from abiding faith found. Nor, if you're going to go there, is the concept of “they never were saved in the 1st place if they fell away”.

Bless you,

Russ

hi, although i am not a calvanist brother i am a brother none the lest and anyone who states that calvinism is easy to chop down with enough biblical knowlege is a very proud and elitest statement since it has been argued over for years to no avail.it is not important what you believe about your security because you are not in control over it and i would hate to see you loose your salvation over it. it is like watching folks arguing over a door and getting angry over whether it is an entrance or an exit.jimp

Old Joe,

It is this simple.

"This is good, and pleases God our Savior, Who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. " 1 Tim 2:3-4.

" The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance". 2 Pet 3:9

Do you believe these things or not?

OJ stated concerning the verses in 1 Tim and 2 Peter

They throw the door open on the responsibility of man so that man cannot blame God for his damnation.

Well.... I guess so.

However, that was never in my thoughts to bring attention to. My single and only point is that both scriptures clearly proclaim that GOD WANTS all people to be saved. If they perish outside of faith in Christ they do so against His will. That seems fairly easy to see in those, and other scriptures. However, Calvinism flatly denies that reality. Calvinism claims that God predestined many to NOT come to faith and instead perish into hell by His preordained will for them. Calvinism actually claims there are many that God simply does NOT want to come to faith in Him and therefor He did not "elect" them.

It seems you totally missed the point . A point drawn entirely from those scriptures.

You then state

All you want to see is your own part in your salvation so that you can feel good about having done it, it gives you something to boast about,

For you to go beyond that and cast personal affronts at another reveals much.... However, I sadly find that far to often the norm amongst those holding to Calvin's teachings.

So, in one final attempt to make it very simple-

"This is good, and pleases God our Savior, Who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. " 1 Tim 2:3-4.

" The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance". 2 Pet 3:9

Either these scriptures are true or they are not. I believe they are. However, they also are irreconcilable with core tenets of Calvinism. THAT WAS AND IS THE ONLY POINT.

Decide what you will... or believe that what you decide was predestined by God for you to act out as a puppet as He pulls the strings... it matters not one bit to me.

I simply posted 2 scriptures and asked if you believed them. Why that evoked such a response from you I really do not know, unless it was something in those scriptures that actually upsets you.

hi brother solomon

i would like submit that many are called but few are chosen ,,,many are drawen by the spirit but few are efectual called chossen and saved

god has pacients with all that he calls and draws ,,and wants all of those in the church to come to true repentance ,,that is the contex ,the apostals speaks as a man ,,tho god knows who are his sheep and they believe because they are his sheep ,,which is in contrass ,to those who do not believe becase that are not of god ,,elect of god ,,or his sheep

can i humble submit ,that jesus said he spoke in pararbles so that certaint one would not hear and under stand ,lets they would turn and be heal ,,so conclusion is that there were ones who god did not offer the gosple to ,,jesus said to you it has been givern to no the mystery of the gosple , but to them ,it has not

the bible talks about false teachers being apointed to destrustion .. it was gods will to apoint some to destruction,, the leter of jude and the peter spoke of this

there are many instance in scripture whare the contex ,regarding the the use of christ dieing for the whole world the spirit being poured out on all flesh ,,is talking about the gentiles as well as the jews ,,not the literal whole world ,,as we know just by the prophecy of joel wich peter said was fullfiled at the day of pentacost ,, christ blood was a propisheation not for us only but also the whole world ,, was a jew saing not just for the elect jews but also the elect gentiles

christ sacrifice is a shadow of the of the old

and it was for the rement that came to god in repenteance and kept the law ,it wasnt for the unrepenent

so christ sacrafice is for the repentent rement

there is no wasted blood ,,,god did not die in vain

it was for the sins of his people ,the ones who the father gave ,,the ones who he for knew

it was an onipertent scacrifice ,,,persifick

god didnt need to die for those who reject there concences and the gosple

im not a calvinists ,,but from whay i know ,this subjest has been throughly medtated on by many who come under the theologaly banner ,,,there is no dening scripture in there eyes ,,it comes down to an honest interprtation in there eyes ,,,and i can agree to some of what is taught by them

blind fold election is what i dont agree with ,,,
and hypa cavinism is also a hell deserving doctrine

there is much to glem from the five points of calvinistm ,as is from the weaslyen ariminanism

and mush to respect in the man john wesly who exorted people to stay close to the doctrines of calvinism ,and said whitfield ,was man like no there he new ,and he compared him to the apostals

we need to love one another as true brothers if we are truly born of god and as weasly said stay close to each other doctrines ,,even the carasmatic zac poonan spoke highly of calvinists ,,and said when he prayed ,he prayeed as a calvinist ,but whn he preached ,he preached as a arminian,,,,,,,,let us bless god for his divers creation ,,he has made men different ,we arent robots
and we see the gosple through different shades gthrough a glass darkly ,,let god be true and let every man be a lier

let us not think we know the mind of god perfectly ,,but lets look to jesus who did ,,and look to under stand one other and not be provoked to fruitless debates ,,lets us have the motavation to want to undestand one another ,for a closer bond in the spirit ,and no more ,let us resist the temptation of the evil one to be angy with one another

i pray that for me ,and for my brothers

blessings

please jesus is god ,,your not going to put all the calvinists in same basket are you

that is no differnt from puting all the carasmatic in the benni hin basket ,,its extreamly judgmentel to do either

what basket do we put the carsamatic,who holds to maby four points that calvinists hold to

sister i understand your issues with joe

but surly to tar with the same brush savana

maby we can alow for some inperfect conduct in savana ,,like we do in our selfs

love our nabour as our selfs

hey sister ,,i see god as being onipatent ,he knows all things,, he died for those who he knew would come to him ,for he drew them to himself ,and those are the ones who his father gave him .....they would be the elect of god would they not ,,,,

blessings

sister that is a wide stroke of the brush to say that the preasent church has not studied church history

but tho many have , many believe what the apostal paul prophecide day and night for three years ,that savage wolves would came in not sparing the flock

and also they bare in mind that there wrighings were not infalable like scripture ,,,,so scripture in there eyes still holds athoraity ,,many of the church father taught what we all no to be false teachings ,,,example baptismal regeneration ,,works salvation,,false teachings on the attrubutes and the nature of god

we can only glean from there writings as all the other saints like weasly whitfield ,ect

i read his words the ones who he gave in my eyes ,,are the apostals and those who would believe through there words

and many saint has believed this ,and not believed this

surly your not saying we all must believe exactly what you believe ,,,,,that goes againsnt church history,,and what the chruch father believed ,wich was also diverse

blessings

@ Jesus-is-GOD

That was a very mature response and post you gave. I agree totally.
Interestingly if HE does judge us in any area it only moves us into a much closer representation of HIM. It works far to our good and lifts us up to spiritual heights most others never reach because they are not open to HIS judgements that create growth and character.

Be encouraged! Your example is inspiring to many others. I know it is not done for that reason... but It seems to me we should encourage and acknowledge others when they have been a good example.

I am only looking for an amen, so one more time.

May the Lord judge between me and thee to the utmost severity of His judgment! Will you give me a hearty AMEN?

Brother...

Let's say you are right in your theology. Do you not pray that JiG be saved and with the Lord?

John 6:32-71 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

"""""Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."""""

Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

How can any read this and believe the foreknowledge of God only pertains to those that "would", for there are none that "would". Salvation has come down from the Father and He, (Salvation) is the Bread of Life, He that eats of this Body and Blood is who the Father Has given to the Son.

John 17:21-26 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also,

(((((whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am;))))

that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Who sent them to Jesus?

How is Jesus glorified?

John 17:10-11 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

How are we glorified?

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Living according to who's works?

How can any man read the scriptures and believe that man has anything to do with procurring his ((own?)) salvation?

"None can, "would" or will come, unless the Father draw,
(drag, kicking and screaming) and give us to the Son who is the only One that can raise anyone at the last day.

The foreknowledge of God does not depend on those that will, but on the Father who chooses the elect by His will.

When all on this forum with their isms have given their piece to quander, there is only One that counts. JESUS.

His words of truth in me by the Father: Phillip

In Christ: Phillip

"""And no pretrib rapture is going to takr you away."""

I would wager my life that My Bridegroom will come and collect me His Bride and take me to His Father's House, where He said are many mansions, for who, to keep His Bride out of harms way. Not of this earthly tribulation.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Joe 2:16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.

Joh 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

I am waiting for the Bridegroom to come and take me to His Father's House.

The Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit which are the oil of my lamp, shinning until He comes for His Bride, which I am.

Tribulation or Rapture, which of these are "words of comfort"?

In Christ: Phillip

@ bearmaster

I couldn't agree more in principle. However, here is the spot at which the rub happens in the situation you mentioned.

If those death camps were to happen I would be sharing that ANYONE there could repent and believe the Gospel. They could enter eternity in right standing with God through the blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ if they will repent and believe.

The Calvinist can not do that. They DO NOT believe Christ died for all men. All they can say is , "Well, if you are one of the chosen and elect we will see you in heaven.. if not you will go to hell". That's all there is in that system. They can't share the message of the Gospel that tell's men if they repent and embrace the Gospel of Jesus they will be saved. Do you see it?..... in Calvinism the sharing of the Gospel simply doesn't matter. If they are, "called and elect" , they will be saved regardless of whether anyone ever shares the Gospel with them or not. If they are not, "the called and elect", then they will go to hell no matter how much repenting and looking to the cross they do. There is no point to sharing the Gospel in Calvinism.

If you believe Christ died for the sins of mankind and that God wants all men to be saved( as shared in a plethera of scriptures) then the tenets of Calvinism are at total cross roads with your thoughts. If you believe Jesus died for the sins of the world, and that God wants all people to embrace His plan of salvation at the cross of Christ, and that those who perish in hell do so outside of God's will...that He wanted them to embrace His plan of salvation... and those thoughts motivate you to evangelism and sharing our faith then you will not be able to be Calvinist. It violates the very cores of their belief system.

I appreciate your thoughts and heart on this issue bearmaster (interesting name by the way... is there a story with it?) However, those principles I mentioned are far to dear .... and purchased as far to great a price - the very blood of God- to just let them be disassembled by a belief system that is not in line with the overwhelming balance of scripture.

Blessings Brother!

Calvinism's Reality

"Whoever shall now contend that it is unjust to put heretics and blasphemers to death, knowingly and willingly incur their guilt. It is not human authority that speaks, it is God who speaks and prescribes a perpetual rule for His Church." John Calvin

Calvin said that if you don't believe heretics should be killed, you are worthy to be killed. Of course CALVIN was the one who determined who the heretics were in his world. Basically a one man judge, jury, and execution squad. He even sent out his own form of KGB to find folks not cow towing to his rules so he could jail or kill them. Did you also notice that calvin claimed it was not him doing it? Notice he said ,

It is not human authority that speaks, it is God who speaks and prescribes a perpetual rule

Should heretics be burned at the stake, as Calvin practiced? If you say no, you should be glad you don't live in Calvin's day, or else he might have burned you alive!! All this just for not baptizing babies or for daring to believe that Jesus paid for the sins of all mankind.

He executed 57 people, and excommunicated 66. He also jailed a great many more for no reason other than tiny differences in theology. He even surpassed Augustine in severe treatment!! Like Augustine, Calvin quotes Lk 14:23 to support and justify persecuting and punishing heretics.... of course it is again heretics by Calvin's definition only.

(Beza, Calvins successor at Geneva, also wrote a tract justifying burning heretics, i.e murdering non-calvinists)

From the venomous vitriolic anger I hear from so many Calvinist's aimed at any who would dare to disagree with them I have no doubt that many of the followers of this flawed theological system would line us all up and martyr us today for daring to believe Jesus died for the sins of all men.... or those who don't practice infant baptism. Calvin executed several for not agreeing with him on infant baptism. I hear that same angry hatred in many of the Calvinists voice in our day. I have read it on threads here on SI. This all done "in the name of God". Heaven help us!

When a great tribulation comes it may well be that many true followers of Jesus will have their lives martyred at the hands of the well meaning Calvinist's. It certainly is the exact thing that happened before. Christian's killed by the Calvinist's. History often repeats itself. After all, they would just be following the works of their forefather.

Take an honest historic look at the Anabaptists and the extreme persecution they took from Calvin as well. Heartbreaking! Calvin was himself one of the harshest persecutors of Christians.

Sorry, but who needs a theology developed by a man that had no fruit of the Spirit and was a murderer of those who followed Christ... all done while he claimed to be the "elect and chosen of God".

It is astounding anyone holds to those errors he espoused. That is the primary reason you often hear the term, "The doctrines of grace" , rather than ,"Calvinism". However, they are the same thing....identical.... but to avoid the shame of affiliating with Calvin many create a deceptive name, "doctrines of grace". This helps avoid the shame of being equated with a persecutor of faithful Christians and carrying the name of one who martyred many of Christ's saints. But hey, a rose by any other name is still a rose! "Doctrines of Grace" and "Calvinism"... its the same identical thing.

After an honest look it seems we might find that rather than just persecuting Christian's that Calvin deemed heretics it may have been Calvin who was the actual heretic.

*edited for punctuation and clarity*

WOW! I do not know how many times I have heard people say "you Calvinist always attack everyone who do not agree with you!" From what I have read here, and other posts, it seems the anger is the other way around.

Bottom line - Does man have the right to say what God can and cannot do? Does man have the right to declare God has no right to have sovereign control over Everything? Does the creation have any right to question or challenge the creator?

Some of the responses on this thread have been out to left field, they have twisted and altered the original post and this conversation is going nowhere.

It seems some rather rely on the early church fathers to make their claims opposed to scripture. If we go far enough back, prior to reformation, we might as well declare catholicism is the correct way to go if we want to reply on this method. I for one can no longer be on this forum as it does not promote revival......May the Lord continue to grow those who have a heart to grow and may the original article provide answers for those who are searching.

Onesetfree,

Thanks for your OP and your LP...much appreciated!

Spurgeon was not only passionate about doctrine,but passionate about souls.

I'd like to answer your questions in your LP.

Ques. 1) "Does man have the right to say what God can and cannot do?"

Answer: NO

Ques. 2) "Does man have the right to declare God has no right to have sovereign control over Everything?"

Answer: NO

Ques. 3) "Does the creation have any right to question or challenge the creator?"

Answer: NO

How did I do? Did I get them right?

You then wrote,

"I for one can no longer be on this forum as it does not promote revival."

Please don't go! Don't leave angrily.

And as far as this forum promoting revival or no, neither you nor I can thoroughly answer that.

But it may very well be that it indeed is promoting revival in the hearts of some.

Unlike the Rodney Howard Browns' of today, I do believe that Revival IS a Sovereign move of God.

May God move Sovereignly, even as He did in Genesis 1:2, and has done from the beginning, and shall do to eternity.

And I am certain that your prayer, "May the Lord continue to grow those who have a heart to grow and may the original article provide answers for those who are searching", is heard and even answered,

"And this is the boldness which we have before Him, that if we should be requesting anything according to his will, He is hearing us. And since we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have requested from Him." 1 John 5:14,15

I know the LORD is answering that prayer in my own heart,and am persuaded that He's doing the same in others'.

So be not discouraged...take heart!

hi, please do not take anything here personally. they asked Jesus of the times and He said that only the Father knew. so why do you or i think we have to know all things. we know in part and that is why we all have differing opinions. there is enough evidence on both sides to somewhat prove each argument.i guess that is why i call myself an open theist.jimp

OJ, something is wrong in your heart brother. I truly see nothing but a hatred towards those you deam "lost".

I have no horse in this race. Yet you need to be called on the floor for your actions towards others that you disagree with. It is unbecoming of a Christian.

Dear Brethren on SI,

Please show respect to each other on this forum. Yes, there are both sides to the issue of Christianity regarding Calvinism and Arminianism. As Brother Greg said once that both sides are orthodox and we need to learn to respect the other party. If we are to have a healthy discussion on doctrine, may we do so in love and not with ad hominems (Attack on a Person) fallacy. I personally hold more to a Calvinistic view, but I love my Arminian brothers. In fact, most of the material that have helped me a lot in my walk with Christ was Wesleyan, Deeper Life, Arminian teachings (Watchman Nee, Andrew Murray, Major W. Ian Thomas, Leonard Ravenhill, Hudson Taylor) We have to realize that yes, we may have certain convictions on theology, but ask yourself this question, "Does what you believe make you more in love with Christ? Or does it leave you with as Ravenhill said, 'A big fat head and shrunken soul'?" In all honesty and I say this to my shame, there's a lot of people in the reformed camp who attack Arminianism on their blogs and basically sitting at home, in front of their computers doing nothing but blog about inconsistencies in this or that theology. I have little respect for them even as a man who holds to Calvinistic teaching, due to the fact that many of them are doing nothing for the lost world. They talk a lot about the Sovereignty of God, but they barely LIVE the Sovereignty of God. The Sovereignty of God is a doctrine not to be blogged about, but a doctrine that should comfort us not only in the salvation of souls, but to have us take courage to go out into the world and tell people about Christ without fear, knowing that our Sovereign King is in control. I have some brothers and sisters in Christ who do believe in losing salvation, but I see them actually going out into the world and living for Jesus Christ. I see my Arminian brothers doing a lot more than you Calvinists. You may be saved like a Calvinist, but I tell you God is going to judge us as if we are Arminians. We are responsible for every action we do before the Holy God. Brethren, if you are a Calvinist, the doctrine of grace ought to humble you and not make you puffed up in your thick skull. To my Arminian brothers, my encouragement to you is that you live for eternity, that you make every second in your life count for Jesus Christ. Lastly brethren, it is Christ who ought to be glorified, not doctrine. Doctrine is a means that leads us to Christ, but it is not an ends. God help us all to love and to simply enjoy Christ who is All-in-all.

P.S. - It's funny how we argue over things that WE THINK are different, but really it's just different Christian jargon for the same thing. For example, Keswick says "Let Go and Let God." It's just the same thing as what most reformed preachers would say: "repent and believe" (Letting go of your sin/self/self-effort and trusting in Christ alone). Charismatics say "The Holy Spirit led me here" while Reformed people say, "It was the Sovereignty of God that led me here." Wesley said "Imparted Righteousness", others say "Born Again/Regeneration/Christ in you."

http://expositorychrist.blogspot.ca/2011/10/sovereign-king-living-decrees-to-glory.html

In Christ,

- Michael Liao

This discussion has gone too far and should be locked. Oj clearly shows how his heart is. What happen to humility and loving each other in Christ. I see a self righteous, judging others un-righteously,and hatred. Is this what Jesus want us to do, fight and debate on whether who is chosen to be saved and who is going to hell, I thought it was God's decision. Yet you judge saying that hes going to hell, Why? Is it because that we don't believe in Calvin's doctrines, picking scriptures out of the bible to fit his teachings. Is it because we believe on the whole bible. Repent Oj and ask for HIS blood to cleanse yourself. Even though you will hate me and condemn me, I will still love you in Christ

God Bless
David C

PS While I was reading the bible, this chapter really touched me.

1 Corinthians 4
King James Version (KJV)
4 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.

2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

8 Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.

9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.

11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;

12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.

14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.

15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

18 Now some are puffed up, as though I would not come to you.

19 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power.

20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?

hi brothers and sisters ,,,just thought i would post this before the thred gets locked ,,,,,,just so we can see that both thological systems are verry similar

christcovenant-pca.com

Calvin 500: The Five Points of Calvinism
As we are nearing the five hundredth anniversary of the birth of John Calvin, we are celebrating
this by spending five weeks looking at Calvin and his importance. Last week, we looked at the life
of John Calvin. This week we will look at “the five points of Calvinism.”
John Calvin was such an influential pastor and theologian that his views became a major system of
theology known as “Calvinism.” Originally, the label Calvinism was applied to the entire body of
Calvin’s theology, but today, Calvinism is used almost exclusively to refer his views on salvation or
soteriology (soter = salvation). Thus, one can disagree with Calvin on any number of issues, but
so long as he agrees with Calvin on soteriology, he is called a Calvinist.
The Sovereignty of God
What was Calvin’s view on salvation? What is Calvinism? John Calvin is best known for his
emphasis on the sovereignty of God in salvation. The “sovereignty of God” means that God is the
King and in control, having the right, the power, and the wisdom to do whatever he pleases. Of
course, everyone believes in the general sovereignty of God.
Psalm 115:3
Yet, it is Calvin who is most known for trumpeting the sovereignty of God in salvation. Particularly,
Calvin recovered an understanding that God saves whom he wants to save.
The History of the Five Points
This view of the sovereignty of God in salvation is often stated in five main points, which are known
as “The Five Points of Calvinism.” Now, Calvin did not actually write about these five points as
being the sum of his thought on soteriology. You will never find a pamphlet entitled, “My Five
Points by John Calvin.” The five points came to fruition after Calvin’s death.
John Calvin’s successor at Geneva was Theodore Beza. Beza was a gifted teacher and theologian
who heartily carried on Calvin’s work at Geneva. Beza had a student named Jacobus Arminius
(1560-1609). After completing his time of training in Geneva, Arminius took a position in Holland in
1603. At this time he as a strict Calvinist. However, while in Holland, Arminius faced stiff opposition
to Calvin’s teachings. While he was defending attacks on Calvin’s teachings, Arminius was
persuaded to criticize certain aspects of John Calvin’s teaching. Arminius still considered himself a
Calvinist, for indeed, he still held to many of Calvin’s views. However, Arminius disagreed with
Calvin’s soteriology.
Arminius wanted to revise some of the creeds of the church to fit his new theological views, but he
died in 1609 before he was able to accomplish this. In the following year, Arminius’s followers,
known as Arminians, drew up their own creed. This creed was based upon five key points of
disagreement that Arminius had with Calvinism. The Arminians embraced much of Calvinism, but
they objected to these five points. Their creed is known as the Remonstrance (disagreement or
protest).
Calvin’s followers, the Calvinists, objected to the teaching of the Remonstrance. They responded
with the Counter-Remonstrance. Eventually, the Calvinists held a council to refute the
Remonstrance. The Calvinists met in Dort from 1618-1619. This meeting is commonly called the
Synod of Dort. During this meeting, the Calvinists produced a response to the Remonstrance. Since
the Remonstrance was centered on five key points of disagreement with Calvinism, the Calvinists
produced a five-fold response. This response is known as the Canons of Dort. The five points that
the Canons of Dort articulate have come to be called “the five points of Calvinism.” So, “the five
points of Calvinism” are not a summary of Calvin’s teaching. They are not something that Calvin
devised. The five points arose as a response to the Arminians’ objections to Calvinism.
The five points are commonly known by these descriptions:
1. Total Depravity
2. Unconditional Election
3. Limited Atonement
4. Irresistible Grace
5. Perseverance of the Saints
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Calvin 500: The Five Points of Calvinism
This produces the acronym TULIP. Bear in mind that while the content of these five points can be
traced back to the Canons of Dort, these particular labels and the acronym TULIP first appeared in
1932, in Loraine Boettner’s work, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination.
1) Total Depravity
Total depravity means that every part of man is corrupt, bad, and wicked. Man’s whole being has
been affected by sin. Sin affects man’s body, soul, intellect, will, emotions, conscience, etc. Every
part of man has been affected by sin.
Man is Dead
Sin makes a person spiritually dead.
Ephesians 2:1
Colossians 2:13
Unbelievers are dead spiritually. They are alive physically, but dead spiritually. That is, they cannot
respond spiritually. Unbelievers not only do not believe in God, but they cannot believe in God.
Unbelieving man has no capacity to believe in God.
Man Must Be Made Alive
Before an unbeliever can believe in God, he must first be made alive spiritually.
Ephesians 2:1
Colossians 2:13
Man is dead, but God makes him alive. This is known in theology as regeneration or being born
again. Calvin held that regeneration was a sovereign act of God not based upon anything that a
person is or does. In fact, the distinction between Calvinism and Arminianism can be boiled down
to the relationship between regeneration and faith. Arminians hold that faith precedes
regeneration. That is, everyone is equally capable of believing in God. Once a person believes, then
God causes him to be born again. Calvinists hold that regeneration precedes faith. That is,
unbelievers cannot believe unless God first regenerates them. Once God causes someone to be
born again, then he is capable of believing.
Illustration
The Arminian says that man is in trouble. He is like a man who has taken a sea cruise and has
fallen off of the boat. He is drowning at sea and about to go under. Someone throws him a life
preserve, and with his last effort, he grabs the life preserver and is hauled back onto the boat.
Grabbing the life preserver is equivalent to the act of faith.
The Calvinist says that man is in trouble. He is like a man who has taken a sea cruise and has
fallen off of the boat. Man has drowned and is a corpse floating face down in the water. He is
dead and incapable of saving himself. God must bring the dead man back to life. Regeneration
precedes faith.
John Calvin is called the theologian of the Holy Spirit because of his emphasis on the sovereign
work of the Spirit in regeneration. Total depravity is the lynchpin for the five points. All the other
five points depend upon understanding that man is dead spiritually.
2) Unconditional Election
Election refers to the fact that God chooses whom to save.
1 Thessalonians 1:4
Another related word is predestination.
Ephesians 1:5
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Calvin 500: The Five Points of Calvinism
Predestination refers to deciding a person’s destiny ahead of time (pre + desination). Every
Christian believes in election and predestination. These terms should not be controversial. Calvin
taught that election and predestination are unconditional. That is, God chooses whom to save. This
choosing is not based upon anything that man does, but on God’s choice.
Romans 9:10-12
God chose Jacob and not Esau. This choice, or election, was made before either had even been
born. Thus, it was an unconditional election.
Romans 9:14-16
Arminians argue that God looks down the corridor of time, sees who will believe, and then chooses
them. This is conditional election. It is conditioned upon the faith of man. Calvin held that God
elects based upon his own pleasure, not based upon anything in man.
3) Limited Atonement
This is the most controversial of the five points. Calvin argued that Christ died only for the elect,
only for those whom he had chosen.
Ephesians 5:25
Thus, Christ did not die for every single person who ever lived. He only died for those who were
elect and would become believers. Thus, the atonement is limited in scope. Arminians argue for an
unlimited atonement. That is, Christ died for everyone who ever lived. He made salvation possible
for everyone.
John 3:16
John 1:29
However, all Calvinists believe that Christ’s death is of infinite value. Hypothetically, if God decided
today that he wanted to elect one additional person, nothing about the atonement would change.
Jesus would not have to die on the cross again. Jesus’ suffering on the cross was of infinite value,
so that Jesus could have saved every man, woman, and child who was ever conceived. In this
sense, the atonement is unlimited and infinite.
Illustration
Calvinists: Atonement is like a narrow bridge that goes all the way across the stream
Arminian: Atonement is like a wide bridge that goes half-way across the stream.
Two Practical Considerations
1) A Calvinist says is, “Everyone whose sins are paid for is in heaven. No one in hell had their sins
paid for; otherwise, they would be in heaven.” The Arminian says is, “Everyone in hell had their
sins paid for.” The practical question put to the Arminian becomes: Why is that person in hell? Hell
is to punish for sins, but if everyone’s sins have been paid for, then why does God send unbelievers
to hell? This is a real dilemma for the Arminian: people are in hell paying for their sins, which Jesus
has already paid for. This is double jeopardy.
2) When Jesus was on the cross, was he paying for the sins of all the unbelievers who had already
died? Was he paying for the sins of Cain? Was he paying for the sins of those who died in the
flood? Was he paying for the sins of Ishmael and Esau? Was he paying for the sins of Absalom and
Jezebel? What about Herod? Herod was the one who commanded all babies in Bethlehem be slain.
This Herod died before Jesus did. Did Jesus pay for his sins? It seems rather ridiculous to imagine
that Jesus was dying for the sins of those whose eternal fates were already sealed. By extension, it
seems rather ridiculous to imagine that Jesus was dying for the sins of those whom he knew would
never believe.
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Calvin 500: The Five Points of Calvinism
4) Irresistible Grace
Calvin held that God draws the elect so that they cannot resist his grace. However, this is not like a
tractor beam. God’s wooing is so powerful and attractive that the elect has no desire to reject God.
He wants to be saved.
John 6:37
This helps to explain how God’s election and the will of man interact. God chooses to save a
person, and he then begins to draw him to himself. God regenerates the man, and the man
believes. Once a person is regenerated, he will always believe in Christ. Arminians argue that God
draws all of mankind. Man is capable of either believing or resisting God. Calvin argued that God
does draw all mankind but not equally. The non-elect are drawn but not all the way to salvation
whereas the elect are drawn all the way to faith and salvation.
5) Perseverance of the Saints
Perseverance of the saints means that those who are believers will continue to believe and act like
believers throughout their lives.
Matthew 24:13
We are not saved because we endure, but we endure because we are saved. Endurance is a fruit of
salvation. It is not the cause of salvation. Perseverance is different from preservation. Preservation
is the doctrine that God preserves those who are his. Another name for this is eternal security.
Once God saves someone, that person is saved forever.
Related Historical Views
The debate over depravity, predestination, election, etc., did not begin in the 16th century with
Calvinists and Arminians. Rather, this is an on-going debate that has surfaced at various times in
church history.
Augustine and Pelagius
The original debate began in the 4th century between Augustine and Pelagius. Augustine held to
what we today call “Calvinism.” Actually, Calvin was most influenced by Augustine. He learned
predestination from Augustine.
Pelagius objected to Augustine’s teachings. Augustine taught that man was depraved. Pelagius
taught that man was good. Adam fell, but this did not really affect his seed, except to set a bad
example. Augustine spent much energy refuting Pelagius. Eventually, Pelagius lost because
Pelagianism is not compatible with the teachings of the Bible.
However, some who were sentimental to Pelagius’s teachings modified his position. They said that
man was fallen, but not so far that he couldn’t pick himself back up. This became known as Semi-
Pelagianism. This is basically equivalent to Arminianism.
Hyper-Calvinism
There is also an extreme form of election that often gets mistaken for Calvinism. When someone
first recognizes the sovereignty of God in salvation, they often become a hyper-Calvinist. That is,
they view mankind as simply robots or automatons who are following God’s programming. Yet,
Scripture does not present this view.
John 3:16
We are to preach the gospel to everyone, and those who are elect will respond. What is the call of
the gospel? We tell people to repent and believe. Those who are elect will be able to repent and
believe because they will have already been regenerated.
True Calvinism maintains the healthy balance that the Scriptures teach, without minimizing either
the sovereignty of God or forgetting the freedom of man.
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John Wesley’s Sermon at the Funeral of George Whitefield
from web sight arminian today

In our day it is not uncommon for Arminians and Calvinists to divide over their theological differences. Does this have to be? John Wesley and George Whitefield stand as giants of the faith. They both were passionate about Jesus Christ and His kingdom. Both men strongly believed that all men must hear the gospel and that all people must be born again to enter the kingdom (John 3:3-7; Acts 17:30-31). Both Wesley and Whitefield believed in the power of God to bring about the salvation of souls through the gospel (Romans 1:16-17).

And yet both men strongly disagreed with each other. Wesley was an Arminian and Whitefield was a Calvinist. On a practical level both men lived lives of holiness and both were passionate about prayer and evangelism. In the history of the evangelical church in England and the Western world, both John Wesley and George Whitefield stand as men who rose up in a dark hour to preach the good news to set people free from sin and defeat the devil. But with each other, they often debated passionately over their theological differences. And yet they did so in love. If anyone doubts the love that John Wesley had for his friend George Whitefield, one need only read the sermon that Wesley preached at the funeral of Whitefield. A reading of the sermon from Wesley leaves no doubt that he loved Whitefield and considered him a man of God to be praised for his passionate love for Jesus. What you won’t find is Wesley trying to take shots at Whitefield’s Calvinism. Instead you find that he shows the grace of God at work in the life of Whitefield.

How I think we need to love for the good among each other from time to time. John Wesley and George Whitefield could have easily avoided each other and went their separate ways over their theological differences but instead they chose to love each other in the Lord even while disagreeing. The same can be true of us today. We can learn from the examples of Wesley and Whitefield and we can learn to love each other in the Lord. For both the Arminian and the Calvinist, our salvation is not based on the works, writings, life, or death of either John Calvin or James Arminius. Our salvation is found only in Jesus and we should unite around Him. Jesus is the Head of the true Church and if you are saved by God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ and His blood, you are in the true Church and you are my brother or my sister in Jesus (Galatians 3:26-29; Colossians 1:15-18). We can unite, as Wesley and Whitefield did, around Jesus and around preaching that all “must be born again” or they have no hope. The gospel, praise God, is not Arminianism or Calvinism but it is about Christ and His work on the cross and His glorious resurrection from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).

So let us learn from Wesley and from Whitefield and even if we disagree and even if we debate, let us do so in love and in grace

a snipet of the sermon from john weasly ,,,,,

II. 1. We are, in the second place, to take some view of his character. A little sketch of this was soon after published in the Boston Gazette; an extract of which is subjoined: -- ["Little can be said of him but what every friend to vital Christianity who has sat under his ministry will attest."]

"In his public labors he has, for many years, astonished the world with his eloquence and devotion. With what divine pathos did he persuade the impenitent sinner to embrace the practice of piety and virtue! [Filled with the spirit of grace, he] spoke from the heart, and, with a fervency of zeal perhaps unequalled since the day of the Apostles, [adorned the truths he delivered with the most graceful charms of rhetoric and oratory.] From the pulpit he was unrivalled in the command of an ever-crowded auditory. Nor was he less agreeable and instructive in his private conversation; happy in a remarkable ease of address, willing to communicate, studious to edify. May the rising generation catch a spark of that flame which shone, with such distinguished luster, in the spirit and practice of this faithful servant of the most high God!"

2. A more particular, and equally just, character of him has appeared in one of the English papers. It may not be disagreeable to you to add the substance of this likewise: --

"The character of this truly pious person must be [deeply] impressed on the heart of every friend to vital religion. In spite of a tender [and delicate] constitution, he continued to the last day of his life, preaching with a frequency and fervor that seemed to exceed the natural strength of the most robust. Being called to the exercise of his function at an age when most young men are only beginning to qualify themselves for it, he had not time to make a very considerable progress in the learned languages. But this defect was amply supplied by a lively and fertile genius, by fervent zeal, and by a forcible and most persuasive delivery. And though in the pulpit he often found it needful by "the terrors of the Lord" to "persuade men," he had nothing gloomy in his nature; being singularly cheerful, as well as charitable and tender-hearted. He was as ready to relieve the bodily as the spiritual necessities of those that applied to him. It ought also to be observed, that he constantly enforced upon his audience every moral duty; particularly industry in their several callings, and obedience to their superiors. He endeavored, by the most extraordinary efforts of preaching, in different places, and even in the open fields, to rouse the lower class of people from the last degree of inattention and ignorance to a sense of religion. For this, and his other labors, the name of GEORGE WHITEFIELD will long be remembered with esteem and veneration."

3. That both these accounts are just and impartial, will readily be allowed; that is, as far as they go. But they go little farther than the outside of his character. They show you the preacher, but not the man, the Christian, the saint of God. May I be permitted to add a little on this head, from a personal knowledge of near forty years? Indeed, I am thoroughly sensible how difficult it is to speak on so delicate a subject; what prudence is required to avoid both extremes, to say neither too little nor too much! Nay, I know it is impossible to speak at all, to say either less or more, without incurring from some the former, from others the latter censure. Some will seriously think that too little is said; and others, that it is too much. But without attending to this, I will speak just what I know, before Him to whom we are all to give an account.

4. Mention has already been made of his unparalleled zeal, his indefatigable activity, his tender-heartedness to the afflicted, and charitableness toward the poor. But should we not likewise mention his deep gratitude to all whom God had used as instruments of good to him? -- of whom he did not cease to speak in the most respectful manner, even to his dying day. Should we not mention, that he had a heart susceptible of the most generous and the most tender friendship? I have frequently thought that this, of all others, was the distinguishing part of his character. How few have we known of so kind a temper, of such large and flowing affections! Was it not principally by this, that the hearts of others were so strangely drawn and knit to him? Can anything but love beget love? This shone in his very countenance, and continually breathed in all his words, whether in public or private. Was it not this, which, quick and penetrating as lightning, flew from heart to heart? which gave that life to his sermons, his conversations, his letters? Ye are witnesses!

5. But away with the vile misconstruction of men of corrupt minds, who know of no love but what is earthly and sensual! Be it remembered, at the same time, that he was endued with the most nice and unblemished modesty. His office called him to converse very frequently and largely with women as well as men; and those of every age and condition. But his whole behavior towards them was a practical comment on that advice of St. Paul to Timothy: "Entreat the elder women as mothers, the younger as sisters, with all purity."

6. Meantime, how suitable to the friendliness of his spirit was the frankness and openness of his conversation! -- although it was as far removed from rudeness on the one hand, as from guile [and disguise] on the other. Was not this frankness at once a fruit and a proof of his courage and intrepidity? Armed with these, he feared not the faces of men, but "used great plainness of speech" to persons of every rank and condition, high and low, rich and poor; endeavoring only "by manifestation of the truth to commend himself to every man's conscience in the sight of God."

7. Neither was he afraid of labor or pain, any more than of "what man [could] do unto him;" being equally

Patient in bearing ill and doing well.
And this appeared in the steadiness wherewith he pursued whatever he undertook for his Master's sake. Witness one instance for all, -- the Orphan-house in Georgia; which he began and perfected, in spite of all discouragements. Indeed, in whatever concerned himself he was pliant and flexible. In this case he was "easy to be entreated;" easy to be either convinced or persuaded. But he was immovable in the things of God, or wherever his conscience was concerned. None could persuade, any more than affright, him to vary, in the least point, from that integrity which was inseparable from his whole character, and regulated all his words and actions. Herein he did

Stand as an iron pillar strong,
And steadfast as a wall of brass.
8. If it be inquired what was the foundation of this integrity, or of his sincerity, courage, patience, and every other valuable and amiable quality; it is easy to give the answer. It was not the excellence of his natural temper, not the strength of his understanding; it was not the force of education; no, nor the advice of his friends: it was no other than faith in a bleeding Lord; "faith of the operation of God." It was "a lively hope of an inheritance incorruptible, undefiled, and that fadeth not away." It was "the love of God shed abroad in his heart by the Holy Ghost which was given unto him," filling his soul with tender, disinterested love to every child of man. From this source arose that torrent of eloquence which frequently bore down all before it; from this, that astonishing force of persuasion which the most hardened sinners could not resist. This it was which often made his "head as waters, and his eyes a fountain of tears." This it was which enabled him to pour out his soul in prayer, in a manner peculiar to himself, with such fullness and ease united together, with such strength and variety both of sentiment and expression.

9. I may close this head with observing what an honor it pleased God to put upon His faithful servant, by allowing him to declare His everlasting gospel in so many various countries, to such numbers of people, and with so great an effect on so many of their precious souls! Have we read or heard of any person since the Apostles, who testified the gospel of the grace of God through so widely extended a space, through so large a part of the habitable world? Have we read or heard of any person who called so many thousands, so many myriads, of sinners to repentance? Above all, have we read or heard of any who has been a blessed instrument in His hand of bringing so many sinners from "darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God?" It is true, were we to talk thus to the gay world, we should be judged to speak as barbarians. But you understand the language of the country to which you are going, and whither our dear friend is gone a little before us.

III. But how shall we improve this awful providence? This is the third thing which we have to consider. And the answer to this important question is easy (may God write it in all our hearts!). By keeping close to the grand doctrines which he delivered; and by drinking into his spirit.

1. And, first, let us keep close to the grand scriptural doctrines which he everywhere delivered. There are many doctrines of a less essential nature, with regard to which even the sincere children of God (such is the present weakness of human understanding) are and have been divided for many ages. In these we may think and let think; we may "agree to disagree." But, meantime, let us hold fast the essentials of "the faith which was once delivered to the saints;" and which this champion of God so strongly insisted on, at all times, and in all places!

2. His fundamental point was, "Give God all the glory of whatever is good in man;" and, "In the business of salvation, set Christ as high and man as low as possible." With this point, he and his friends at Oxford, the original Methodists, so called, set out. Their grand principle was, there is no power (by nature) and no merit in man. They insisted, all power to think, speak, or act aright, is in and from the Spirit of Christ; and all merit is (not in man, how high soever in grace, but merely) in the blood of Christ. So he and they taught: there is no power in man, till it is given him from above, to do one good work, to speak one good word, or to form one good desire. For it is not enough to say, all men are sick of sin: no, we are all "dead in trespasses and sins." It follows, that all the children of men are, "by nature, children of wrath." We are all "guilty before God," liable to death temporal and eternal.

3. And we are all helpless, both with regard to the power and to the guilt of sin. "For who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean?" None less than the Almighty. Who can raise those that are dead, spiritually dead in sin? None but He who raised us from the dust of the earth. But on what consideration will He do this? "Not for works of righteousness that we have done." "The dead cannot praise Thee, O Lord;" nor do anything for the sake of which they should be raised to life. Whatever, therefore, God does, He does it merely for the sake of His well-beloved Son: "He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities." He Himself "bore" all "our sins in His own body upon the tree." He "was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification." Here then is the sole meritorious cause of every blessing we do or can enjoy; in particular of our pardon and acceptance with God, of our full and free justification. But by what means do we become interested in what Christ has done and suffered? "Not by works, lest any man should boast;" but by faith alone. "We conclude," says the Apostle, "that a man is justified by faith, without the works of the law." And "to as many as" thus "receive Him, giveth He power to become the sons of God, even to those that believe in His name; who are born, not of the will of man, but of God."

4. And "except a man be" thus "born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." But all who are thus "born of the Spirit" have "the kingdom of God within them." Christ sets up His kingdom in their hearts; "righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost." That "mind is in them, which was in Christ Jesus," enabling them to "walk as Christ also walked." His indwelling Spirit makes them both holy in heart, and "holy in all manner of conversation." But still, seeing all this is a free gift, through the righteousness and blood of Christ, there is eternally the same reason to remember, "He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."

5. You are not ignorant that these are the fundamental doctrines which he everywhere insisted on. And may they not be summed up, as it were, in two words, -- the new birth, and justification by faith? These let us insist upon with all boldness, at all times, and in all places; -- in public (those of us who are called thereto), and at all opportunities in private. Keep close to these good, old, unfashionable doctrines, how many soever contradict and blaspheme. Go on, my brethren, in the "name of the Lord, and in the power of His might." With all care and diligence, "keep that safe which is committed to your trust;" knowing that "heaven and earth shall pass away, but this truth shall not pass away."

6. But will it be sufficient to keep close to his doctrines, how pure soever they are? Is there not a point of still greater importance than this, namely, to drink into his spirit? -- herein to be a follower of him, even as he was of Christ? Without this, the purity of our doctrines would only increase our condemnation. This, therefore, is the principal thing -- to copy after his spirit. And allowing that in some points we must be content to admire what we cannot imitate; yet in many others we may, through the same free grace, be partakers of the same blessing. Conscious then of your own wants and of His bounteous love, who "giveth liberally and upbraids not," cry to Him that works all in all for a measure of the same precious faith; of the same zeal and activity; the same tender-heartedness, charitableness, bowels of mercies. Wrestle with God for some degree of the same grateful, friendly, affectionate temper; of the same openness, simplicity, and godly sincerity; "love without dissimulation." Wrestle on, till the power from on high works in you the same steady courage and patience; and above all, because it is the crown of all, the same invariable integrity!

7. Is there any other fruit of the grace of God with which he was eminently endowed, and the want of which among the children of God he frequently and passionately lamented? There is one, that is, catholic love; that sincere and tender affection which is due to all those who, we have reason to believe, are children of God by faith; in other words, all those, in every persuasion, who "fear God and work righteousness." He longed to see all who had "tasted of the good word," of a true catholic spirit; a word little understood, and still less experienced, by many who have it frequently in their mouth. Who is he that answers this character? Who is the man of a catholic spirit? One who loves as friends, as brethren in the Lord, as joint partakers of the present kingdom of heaven, and fellow heirs of His eternal kingdom, all, of whatever opinion, mode of worship, or congregation, who believe in the Lord Jesus; who love God and man; who, rejoicing to please and fearing to offend God, are careful to abstain from evil, and zealous of good works. He is a man of a truly catholic spirit, who bears all these continually upon his heart; who, having an unspeakable tenderness for their persons, and an earnest desire of their welfare, does not cease to commend them to God in prayer, as well as to plead their cause before men; who speaks comfortably to them, and labors, by all his words, to strengthen their hands in God. He assists them to the uttermost of his power, in all things, spiritual and temporal; he is ready to "spend and be spent" for them; yea, "to lay down his life for his brethren."

8. How amiable a character is this! How desirable to every child of God! But why is it then so rarely found? How is it that there are so few instances of it? Indeed, supposing we have tasted of the love of God, how can any of us rest till it is our own? Why, there is a delicate device, whereby Satan persuades thousands that they may stop short of it and yet be guiltless. It is well if many here present are not in this "snare of the devil, taken captive at his will." "O yes," says one, "I have all this love for those I believe to be children of God; but I will never believe he is a child of God, who belongs to that vile congregation! Can he, do you think, be a child of God, who holds such detestable opinions? or he that joins in such senseless and superstitious, if not idolatrous, worship?" So we may justify ourselves in one sin by adding a second to it! We excuse the want of love in ourselves by laying the blame on others! To color our own devilish temper, we pronounce our brethren children of the devil! O beware of this! -- and if you are already taken in the snare, escape out of it as soon as possible! Go and learn that truly catholic love which "is not rash," or hasty in judging; that love which "thinks no evil;" which "believes and hopes all things;" which makes all the allowances for others that we desire others should make for us! Then we shall take knowledge of the grace of God which is in every man, whatever be his opinion or mode of worship: then will all that fear God be near and dear unto us "in the bowels of Jesus Christ."

9. Was not this the spirit of our dear friend? And why should it not be ours? O Thou God of love, how long shall Thy people be a by-word among the Heathen? How long shall they laugh us to scorn, and say, "See how these Christians love one another!" When wilt Thou roll away our reproach? Shall the sword devour for ever? How long will it be ere Thou bid Thy people return from "following each other?" Now, at least, "let all the people stand still, and pursue after their brethren no more!" But what ever others do, let all of us, my brethren, hear the voice of him that, being dead, yet speaks! Suppose ye hear him say, "Now, at least, be ye followers of me as I was of Christ! Let brother "no more lift up sword against brother, neither know ye war any more!" Rather put ye on, as the elect of God, bowels of mercies, humbleness of mild, brotherly kindness, gentleness, long- suffering, forbearing one another in love. Let the time past suffice for strife, envy, contention; for biting and devouring one another. Blessed be God, that ye have not long ago been consumed one of another! From henceforth hold ye the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."

10. O God, with Thee no word is impossible! Thou does whatsoever please Thee! O that Thou would cause the mantle of Thy prophet, whom Thou hast taken up, now to fall upon us that remain! "Where is the Lord God of Elijah?" Let his spirit rest upon these Thy servants! Show Thou art the God that answers by fire! Let the fire of Thy love fall on every heart! And because we love Thee, let us love one another with a "love stronger than death!" Take away from us "all anger, and wrath, and bitterness; all clamor and evil speaking!" Let Thy Spirit so rest upon us, that from this hour we may be "kind to each other, tender-hearted, forgiving one another, even as God, for Christ's sake hath forgiven us!"

I will lock this thread, it has much unchristlikness and some direct violations of Jesus Christs commands in the NT. May we watch our tongues and judgments we speak.

This words should be an encuragment to all and a desire deeply rooted in our hearts and if not i am fearful for that man or woman.

"John Wesley and George Whitefield could have easily avoided each other and went their separate ways over their theological differences but instead they chose to love each other in the Lord even while disagreeing."