Can a Child Molester Inherit the Kingdom of God?

Today a man I knew very well who has a large family and was a professing Christian was sentenced to 19 years in prison for molesting 5 young girls under the age of 13 over a few years.

He was also an elder of the church we attended (and after we left) and was committing these crimes while we were attending the church around 10 years ago.

I apologize for this thread's topic, but on a theological understanding, I am trying to wrap my mind around this. While in my own life I have personally walked through repentance of sexual sin in my life, it did not come to this level of breaking the law of the land.

I guess my theological question is, how can a man in his position commit such an incredible sin, and still profess Salvation in Christ and be an elder in a local church as well?

Was he a Judas, a "false convert"? or was he saved during his acts of sin and believed that God would forgive Him after he committed this devious act towards these young girls.

Does a theological position encourage one to sin and think it's "ok" because I'm really saved still or does one person who sins like this just was 'never saved' or 'would lose his salvation'???

I know I'm bringing up alot of controversial theological topics but in all reality, I need to understand the truth Biblically on this because it really happened close to home.

Thanks,
dkr777

You asked,

Can a Child Molester Inherit the Kingdom of God?

Answer: Yes.

Hi dkr-

This subject most definitely causes us to look at what we believe and why. It's very important too. All these answers are in the word of God. He is above all things a loving and JUST GOD wanting none to perish. When I find myself needing to compartmentalize things in black and white but cannot, I am reminded that God is always just.

Miccah is right, a child molester can inherit the kingdom of God. They can be forgiven just like you or me for our sins and the good news is they can be transformed out of their dead life and be conformed to the image of Christ if they come to the saving knowledge of the truth and repent.

I know that you asked for theology, for which I am not qualified to discuss, but here are the verses that came to my mind as I read what you posted. I am sure that many here will add some good things for you to read.

2 Timothy 2: 19" Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, “ The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “ Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness.'"

Galatians 5:21-19 "Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God."
"But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness."

1 Cor 6:"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [f]effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."

Mark 9:42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea."

1 Corinthians 5 "But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person."
"For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

1 Corinthians 5:"It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife!"
So it is easy to judge that molesting a child would have been considered severely immoral.

Hebrews 10 says, " For we know Him who said, 'Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,' says the Lord. And again, 'The Lord will judge His people.' 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

That being said,I've resolved myself to accept that while I do make judgements pertaining to behavior in the church, I do not make myself judge over a persons eternal life or death(lest I defile my own heart). I leave that to the Lord, who is truly just.

I hope some of this helps.
I'm convinced of it.

Does a theological position encourage one to sin and think it's "ok" because I'm really saved still or does one person who sins like this just was 'never saved' or 'would lose his salvation'???

This seems to be a common default question in an attempt to resolve such matters, but I think it is unhelpful. This question does not help God’s people move towards an understanding of the actual sin problem, or of the solution, or of the prevention. And even if we do happen to know the sinner’s rationality or his final destiny, nothing will change. If we determine that he was hell-bound anyway, we will simply write off the culprit and absolve ourselves of any responsibility in the matter. Child molestation is a serious evil that affects everyone.

For now I merely offer some questions to consider:

1) What predisposes some people to become addicted to sexual exploitation of children?

2) Who “out there” can help us grow in our understanding, and how can we avail ourselves to those resources? (This question prevents God’s people from drawing from their own uninformed opinions and superstitious notions)

3) What children are more vulnerable to sexual exploitation?

4) What is there about a Christian church family that enables such sin problems to flourish unchecked, and that allows the people to remain in denial about their sinfulness?

5) What changes among God’s people are needed in order for it to become a repentant community, to restore and strengthen the bonds of family relationships – and also expose falseness of any kind among their people. (remembering that the church is typically an ideal hideout for any unchecked sin … oh…. …. and why is that?)

6) What has God given his people through Christ, which can deliver them from besetting sin problems and make them, together, a strong deterrent against sin?

In view of the answers to such questions, how effective our our "prevention policies"?

Diane

I completely agree with JiG.

Can you see yourself as unclean as this man? Then you will know that he can be forgiven. And you will know there is healing for the ones he's hurt.

*edit* Here is a link to the story of another 'terrible' man who was known as the Son of Sam killer. He now calls him self the Son of Hope:

http://www.thesonofhope.com/david.html

QUOTE: "Today a man I knew very well who has a large family and was a professing Christian was sentenced to 19 years in prison for molesting 5 young girls under the age of 13 over a few years."==DKR777

I think the key word here is PROFESSING. He was/is a PROFESSING Christian. I can walk into a donut shop and profess myself to be a donut. In time, i can even make MYSELF believe i am one if i want to.

Absolutely Not!

There will definitely not be any child molesters in heaven!

Marvel not, for we must be born again!

Absolutely Not!

There will definitely not be any child molesters in heaven!

Marvel not, for we must be born again!

The way the original post is worded insinuates that the sin being reported is not repented of. In that case I agree that a person in that state cannot inherit the Kingdom. But neither can gossips, slanderers, those who hate their fellow brothers and sisters, and liars, etc.

But do you think there is no repentance for someone caught in this sin? I think there is.

quote-

But do you think there is no repentance for someone caught in this sin? I think there is.
quote

Yes, but only if God grants him the repentance, but that would be true of any sin. If there is true godly sorrow of sin and true faith in the Lord Jesus then I believe that God desires to grant repentance unto life.

dkr777,

I understand your concern for this pervert - it is a legitimate concern. How can a person who knew the WORD do such a horrific thing? Can God redeem him? This is as I would understand your question.

Now, I would like to focus on the victims - FIVE girls under the ages of 13. FIVE! get that! FIVE young girls!

Ever consider the damage he did to these FIVE girls? He killed something in each and everyone of them. He did it! He killed their innocence! Not only that, he made it very difficult for them to relate properly to males; this difficulty will be carried over into the marriage relationship! No kidding! These girls will have a very hard time relating sexually to a husband, even if he is loving.

Yes, this pervert killed something in these innocent girls. Does he care? Does he even begin to realize the damage he inflicted upon these girls? Can he ever begin to internalize this? Or, is he only sorry because he gets free room and board for 19 years and has to jump and walk when someone else tells him to?

Does this man realize how repulsive he is to other females/mothers? Does he realize that his sin has earned him the mistrust of females? the disgust of females out there who know him? Or, is he only sorry for the disadvantages that came his way because he got caught?

For the victims, it will take an supernatural intervention by the Holy Spirit to heal the scars inflicted upon these girls AND it will take time.

Yes, God can forgive but he must realize the depth of his sin and work to heal the damage he inflicted upon them. This work will be much more difficult then the pleasure he ever derived from playing out his sexual fantasies.

My response is one shared by my female friends. It is not just me...

It is interesting. My older brother pastored a church where a child molester got saved. The man had gone to prison for many years. He was released, and naturally, his family was not there to celebrate his release. He couldn't find a job. And shortly thereafter, he was diagnosed with terminal cancer that would later take his life. But being broken and destroyed, he came to powerfully know the Savior. Glory would come to mark that man's life, and he was beloved by the church there. I am glad to have met him a few times. His life became a testimony to the change our gospel can truly make in the lives of others. A change which psychologist tell us is impossible for a child molester to experience.

God already granted repentance through The Cross of His Son, Jesus. But this man all he has to do is receive it by faith on what the Son did for all of us.

There are a few facts I left out of this story, the 5 young girls were his daughters.

Also, his wife knew about this "secret" and the senior pastor knew as well and since he was 'repentant' they allowed him to be an elder of the church.

It was his oldest sons who turned him over to the police when the daughters confessed about this sin to their older brothers that occurred when they were under 12 yrs old...

-dkr777

dkr777

Would you mind telling us approximately how long ago this happened and perhaps what led the daughters or his son in this case to report him?

Is there evidence of any attempt at reconciliation in the past?

In our church Alliance there was a church leader who molested a couple girls...the girls told on him and he went to the police and turned himself in.

The law took over and now he is under its restrictions as per a child molester.

The Alliance leadership stripped the man of any leadership responsibility for the present AND future.

This decision was not made by vote of the churches but by the overseers..

In the meantime there are those working to bring some kind of restoration, repentance but it does not include restoration to leadership.

I think the overseers were very wise...

Sin is first and foremost a negative spiritual power. Sin should not be viewed as an "activity" as much as it should be perceived as an "inspiration". So, it is that this man was inspired (perhaps a better word 'compelled') to commit this evil. I say compelled because the power of sin announces itself first an inspiration ... a thought.

An individual has the opportunity to take possession of the inspiration/thought and choose to make it his own or not. No man is held accountable for the multitude of negative thoughts which might inspire him throughout any given day or hour. He is only accountable for those which he voluntarily takes possession of and conceives by cooperating with them.

For instance, it is indeed true that Satan does not know our thoughts; it's not as if he can read our minds. Why is this? Simply put: our "inner man" (secret place) is only completely naked to the Heavenly Father Himself. (This can be awkwardly illustrated by the privacy of a husband and wife relationship). The other reason is that those thoughts which the evil one can rightly know, he is incapable of believing ... having faith in. (Otherwise, the Lord would never have been crucified and triumphed over evil.)

So, it is that this man plainly took hold of inspirations and acted on them. Eventually, the inspirations became a torrent of compulsion which devoured the man's spirit ... which contains the core of his will-power. He became unable to resist the demonic onslaught. He became "one" with the evil powers.

We know AIDS as Acquired Immunity Deficiency Syndrome. But Christians also know something akin to AFRAIDS.
Acquired Failures Related to the Immune Deficiency of the human Spirit.

This is precisely what happened with this man. He allowed the inspirations of the evil one to damage the immunity of his "inner being" to such a degree that he eventually came under their compelling dominance.

Now, the added item about whether he enters into the Kingdom of God, I presume your mistaken choice of the term actually intends to mean "heaven".
Yes, he remains eligible.
God is ONLY and PERFECTLY good. His desire is always that man should have a share of eternity in His Kingdom ... this includes EVERY MAN. The only occasion of an individual not entering the Kingdom of God (the Light side of the Kingdom of Heaven) is because the evil powers have the legal right to drag their possessions with them as they are thrown in the bottomless pit. It is not for nothing that the Bible clearly states that we have been "ransomed" from this possibility because our ownership has changed ... we are no longer slaves to sin ... no longer eligible for the wages of sin.
By the way: God is ONLY good and so we would do wrong to believe that God pays the wages of Sin. God rewards those who are His while the evil one has the legal right to render payment to those serving him.

Hope this helps! :)

Also, his wife knew about this "secret" and the senior pastor knew as well and since he was 'repentant' they allowed him to be an elder of the church.

Someone needs to define what repentance is on a biblically sound foundation, the fact of the matter is the word has been so watered down that anyone who voices a semi contrite heart on a matter is deemed repentant. This man was not repentant, he had confessed his sin but in no way wanted to make restitution for the sin, this is not repentance.

If we look at Zacchaeus we get a biblical definition of what repentance is. Upon conviction by the Spirit the person changes to the point where God moves on their heart not only confess, but to act (Zacchaeus paid back 4 times what he extorted from the people).

A repentant man in this case would have went not only confessed his sin, but would have went to the police as well. The elders involved should have went to the police with this heinous crime and told them everything that they knew. This is a requirement for worldly counselors, should the body of Christ function below the worldly requirements? God forbid.

Peace :-)

If a man repents of his sin and makes reconciliation for his wrong doing with those that he has wronged, there is no reason to call the police. Leave the world out of it as much as possible.

This all could have been avoided had the brother gone to Dad and demanded that he go and speak to those he wronged, there could have been healing brought into this family.

What kind of fantasyland do you live in? Let's play this out:

"Hi dad I know that you are raping my sisters, could you please stop?"

How ridiculous is that?

Counselors in the US are REQUIRED to report lawbreaking like this to the authorities, should they choose not to, they lose their license.

The brothers in this situation acted more correctly than the wife, elders, pastors and everyone else.

The church that Christ died for is not a shield for unrepentant pedophiles, I'm very aware what the word says about this, it says to respect the laws and authorities that are above us (Romans 13:1-7).

The scripture that you mentioned above is pertaining to a man who has relations with his dad's wife (a vile thing indeed), there were no minors involved and there was no Roman law prohibiting it so lets compare apples with apples.

Also, his wife knew about this "secret" and the senior pastor knew as well and since he was 'repentant' they allowed him to be an elder of the church.

Hi Approved,

One last thing, as I detailed in the post above the man was not 'repentant' he made a 'confession' there is a big difference between the two. Confession without repentance is worthless.

"She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it." ~Genesis 3:6b

The above is confession without repentance, and we all know how that turned out.

EVE: "Hi Adam, I ate this fruit. I know it was a wicked thing but here, have some."

ADAM: Ok, no worries...

hi, the example of adam and eve does not work at all. adam was innocent and was not under the old covenant or the new and only had 1 commandment that he had to live by. the tree of the knowlege of good and evil(the tree of religion)was and still is the problem with him and us... as he ate of this tree ,he rejected the tree of life(christ). they had no idea this was as wicked as you say and repentance after the fact would not have changed a thing.true repentance has nothing to do with sin.true repentance is death to self and self rule. altars are places of sacrifice and you die there(reckon yourselves dead unto sin and alive in Christ)He must be Lord.jimp

I was somewhat disturbed by your claim that repentance is somehow validated by volunteering to subject oneself to the punishing authorities.
Perhaps, I have more credibility with this issue because I have been in the identical situation. Prior my hearing the Gospel of Repentance, I was a professional thief. At one point in my life a prosecutor stood up in Court to say: "Your honor, there isn't a building in this city -- indeed, in this country! --- that this man can't get in to."

I heard the Gospel in 1969 through a David Wilkerson Outreach ministry. Afterwards, I read the Nicky Cruz book titled "Run, Baby Run!" where Nicky himself offered the same advice as yourself here. Such advice bewildered me then as much as it does this day reading your comments here.

In any event, I prayed very much about the issue at the time. I was very willing to follow through with whatever was required to begin a new life with Jesus. The answer I received was not after your poorly informed advice as stated here.
As a matter of fact, I wrestled long and hard with the issue and sought advice from multiple Christians. Some were agreeing with your sentiment; but the majority were not.
One Pastor told me about a woman who had come to his office that same morning to confess a problem with adultery. The Pastor said to me: "The only difference between that woman's sin and your own is that adultery is not eligible for imprisonment". He continued: "While you were dressing up in black clothing to enter a building in the darkness of night, this woman was putting on her best dress and committing sin too".
That settled the question for me.
Sin is not like walking through a Walmart Store and some sins are on sale while others are not. Sin does not possess a value on its own. Sin is a deviant power that attaches to one's desires and becomes conceived or made visible in the world. It can be jealousy, rage, unforgiveness, adultery and and, yes, theft too.
All I can say is that I'm hoping that you are not a Christian counselor because your advice would unwittingly injure alot of people.

blayne, i am talking about turning your life over to Jesus.jimp

Hi! Jimp
That's a unique unusual Nick that I've never bumped into before.
Ummmm, I don't know where it is that I should be looking to see where you are "talking about turning your life over to Jesus" ... I'm new to these Discussion Forums, sorry 'bout that.
I was simply trying to reply to a Post here about a supposed pedophile and someone's advice that he should volunteer to hand himself over to the constabulary authorities.
Repentance is often mistaken to be synonymous with renewal; healing too can often be mistaken for restoration. We so easily throw around terms and words without giving a thought to their origin or true scriptural meaning. Such is the persistent activity of the parrots among us. :)

Andrew,

I too, have pondered this question: how the state does not recognize the possibility of repentance. Actually, the issue is a thorny one. How can one be certain the perpetrator is truly repentant and will no longer pose a risk to females? If the state would allow the pastors to make that call, it would put them in a precarious position because what if they are wrong and the fellow pursues it again? There are people who will say anything what they perceive you want to hear. And they are good at persuading you how "genuine" they are. On the other hand, maybe, just maybe, allowing the state to make this call will take pastors off the hook as well?

We have a sister, now married with children, in our church who was molested by her adoptive father. Presently he is incarcerated and will be until the youngest in this family is 18 YO. He says he did no wrong. Opps! Regardless how he considers his sin, the damage he inflicted upon this woman was so severe she says that unless Christ had intervened in their marriage it would have broken up. (In a moment of utter despair the Lord Jesus appeared to her hanging on the cross...He said something but I forgot the exact words.)

In my opinion we are dealing with an issue that is just as bad as murder. The victim is still living with damaged emotions, bad memories; relationships impaired. It is a situation where Jesus says it would have been better if a millstone were tied to his neck and cast into the middle of the sea. Rough? Jesus said it...as the Creator, he knows well the problems inherent in the offence of young children.

This is a serious issue...and I think we are all aware of it and this is gratifying.

ginnyrose

"Mercy Triumphs over Judgement"

"Forgive and you will be forgiven."

Measure for measure, As we measure others, so will we be measured on judgment day.

I believe this man, Hernandez, suffered everyday of his life over what he did, the murder this boy. Even as he embraced Jesus Christ as his saviour, he grieved continously over what he did.

Against the advice of the inner circle of those Christians who knew him and what he did, he gave himself up to our earthly authorities.

I greived and prayed for Ethan Patz when he was kidnapped. It was extremely sad that someone kidnapped the boy.

I now rejoice that the boys' murderer, Mr. Hernandez, will be in heaven because he repented and put himself under God's mercy through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ. I rejoice, because this is precisely what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is all about.

husley,

this happened approximately 10 years ago the abuse against his daughters (all happened under the age of 12), so this happened for a long time...

I am not aware of any reconciliation with his daughters but he confessed to his wife and the senior pastor and his wife backed up his repentance (so he could still be an elder...) since his daughters now are in their early 20's/ late teens today.

The girls had enough hiding it from their family and others and confessed it to their older brothers and one brother called the police immediately on his dad.

dkr777

I must disagree with you evangis.

It would be horrible to have Christians take the Law in their hands to severely punish or ostracize the imagined wicked people as determined by someone's alleged spiritual gift of "creepy feelings inside". This would be vigilante-ism.

What you are asking is to revive the Salem Witch Trials.

What I don't see here and perhaps I missed it somewhere is that repentant or not, there are certain qualifications in the bible for being in any kind of leadership in a church!
This is the word of God, and if we follow it, we can leave out the guess work.

1 Timothy 3
"It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. 2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. 4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity 5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), 6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. 7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

8 Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain, 9 but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons IF THEY ARE BEYOND REPROACH. 11 Women (their wives) must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus."

Repenting from a sin is not the same as mastering a sin. and not allowing a person to be in leadership because of a sin they have not mastered or because they have not obtained a high standing among the flock is not the same as not forgiving them.

Allowing this person to go on as an elder was not biblical even if he was repentant. Those who accepted his repentance should have given him a seat with the rest of the congregation- and that would have been a display of love and forgiveness.

KrispyKrittr on 2012/5/30 7:53:53 wrote:

"There is Biblical church discipline, but it should NEVER be carried out based on someone's "word of knowledge"."

Thus we are in agreement.

I do realize that there are many Christian Churches who have their own By Laws. Some ban the drinking of any and all alcoholic Beverages, and some ban any and all dancing, and some ban going to the movies. By Laws ought to be respected and honored.

The Apostle Paul wrote that there is nothing wrong with eating meat that was sacrificed to an Idol. But if an immature Christian conscious is troubled by your eating meat sacrificed to an idol, for his sake do not eat that meat. But if you are home and by yourself, then there is nothing wrong with eating that meat that was sacrificed to an idol, eat and enjoy, it is just meat. Our ulitmate goal is to love one another, and care for each other, and to Love our God with all our Heart, might, and strenght.

Show me a church that bans all sinners and I will show a Church that is empty, or breaking their own ban!

Approved,

I too came from what they call a dysfunctional home. There was physical abuse and sexual crimes commited, and uncalled for beatings.

So what is to be done? Forgive, forget, and move on in God's presence.

We walk with our true Father and His only begotten Son, Jesus. We Bath in His blood and He cleanse our whole being.

Rejoice in your slavation and the presence of God in your very being. Soak yourself in His love for you. And forgive all who have sinned against you, pray for them, and dwell in the presence and love of God in your life and very being via the indweeling Holy Spirit.

Our body, like a rose, it withers away! But we are spirit, and in the presence of The light and The Love, For God is Light and He is Love, our spirit is healed, and we are nourished daily. Nothing can seperate us from the Love of God and the good will He has for us. And He has prepared a home for us where there will be no weeping, and the Lion will sleep with the Lamb, and our joy and fellowship will be good and be complete.

God has blessed you Approved. And may He continously Bless you.

BTW, the Bible does not say "do not lie." IT SAYS "WE SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS." particularly meaning - in a court of Judgment, such as a real court, or in the court of public opinion, where lies (gossip) wrongly destroy the life of someone who can not defend themselves. There are times when an outright lie is a good choice, particularly if it prevents innocent people from unjust sufferings. But in making such a decision, one ought not lie to theirself.

I wrote:

KrispyKrittr on 2012/5/30 7:53:53 wrote to me. ArtB:

"There is Biblical church discipline, but it should NEVER be carried out based on someone's "word of knowledge"."

I replied

"Thus we are in agreement."

Then you replied:

by KrispyKrittr on 2012/5/30 10:50:27

"Art... the church does not exercise discipline in a totalitarian way. The goal of church discipline is to restore the one who has sinned, and church discipline should only be exercised when all other means of correction, restoration etc have been exhausted."

Once Again, I agree with you.

In the first reply to you, I simply introduce a 2nd topic relating to By Laws. By Laws often are rules and procedures that are not explicitly in the Bible.

I attended a Baptist Church where the By Laws prohibited members from drinking any Alcoholic beverages. These By Laws go back to the time of Prohibition, and were in Compliance with the then US Law. In the 1980's, it became obvious that many members casually drank alcoholic beverages, usually during meals, and usually wine. They were not drunks, they were Godly people. So the Church voted to revise their By Laws from banning drinking of Alcohollic Beverages to simply banning drinking alcoholic Beverages at all Church Functions.

The later ban was for those who may come to our Church and who may be struggling with Alcoholic addiction, or a family member being so addicted. IMO, a wise decision all around.

I personally like drinking a glass of wine with my meals.

No, not breakfast. :)

by KrispyKrittr on 2012/5/30 12:49:19

"I was not disagreeing with you, Art... just adding further clarification for the sake of other readers on here who sometimes dont grasp what I'm trying to say (not always their fault!)"

Sorry, I was a bit confused. It is not your fault, it is mine. I have a mental disability. I'm not the man I use to be.

I thank you for the clarification.

"Am I Paranoid? ---------------------------------- Why do you ask?"

Edited because I have too much time on my hands.

Years later I forgave my brother but he has never confessed his wrong doing. When other family member speak of ill of him, I lift him up because as far as I am concerned what was done is done even though I am left with the scars and in the throes of healing.

Hi Approved,

I share the same story as you, except the guy responsible for my molestation died of aids. I hold no bitterness over the issue, not the least.

Should I take my brother before the courts and let the world deal with him because of his homosexual crimes against my humanity?

What kind of believer would I be? It only shows me that I hate my brother.

What you have done here is taken the path of least resistance and now you are trying to justify it in your own mind, I don't fault you for it.

What would you do if you ever found out that your brother has done the same thing to 15 other kids (because frankly you don't really know)? Would you be in here explaining how 'righteous' your decision was?

I've seen countless cases on TV where victim #1 did not report the person and they are tearfully apologizing to victim #15 and their families.

This man's sons did the right thing. Now for the rest of this man's life people will know that they should not leave innocent children with him or let him supervise kids in any way. A truly repentant man would understand this.

Look at Corrie Ten Boom hiding Jews behind her hidden closet? She lied to the world, the powers that be. Should she be taken to court because she concealed Jews that were considered enemies to the state?

Most folks can see that protecting innocent life (like Corrie Ten Boom did) is different than shielding unrepentant pedophiles. There is nothing righteous about shielding a pedophile, nothing, they are free to continue their wickedness but now protected by silence.

How far do we go with this?

As I explained earlier, SECULAR counselors are required to report molestation to police as a stipulation of keeping their license, are Godly counselors held to a lower standard or does Romans 13 not apply to us?

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

What I see you doing here is projecting the way that you handled your incident on these men. Since you believe that the way you handled it to be right, by default the way these men handled it is wrong in your mind, and you are actually defending your own inaction by condemning these men unjustly. Should you defend these men and the way that they handled the situation, you would be condemning yourself.

Again, I understand the situation from a personal perspective since I am (and will always be) in the same position as yourself. My point is simply why not give these men the benefit of the doubt, as I am with you?

One last thing, the way that your parents handled this was wrong, I hope that you not just know this in your head, but in your heart as well.

I pray that the Lord will give you peace, I really do :-)

if you had a gut feeling about the guy why didnt you do something about it? There are ways of checking your gut feeling …

This is a valid point – and, I think, moves us towards the heart of the matter. If there is no means of “checking your gut feeling..” then there is no means of preventing episodes or of exposing the problem. Children tend to be more intuitive than adults, because adults have learned to shut down their internal sensors till they no longer have “gut feelings” or no longer consider such feelings to be legitimate.

If children are continuously shamed for having negative feelings (or any feelings), then they learn to suppress their “gut feelings” till they become unavailable. Also, without good modeling by adults kids don’t develop the language needed to express these feelings. They don’t learn to trust their gut feelings. Their insecurity makes them easy targets for perpetrators.

Emotional immaturity is a breeding ground for abusive perpetration – for those who become victims as well as the victimizers. The little girl (or boy) may refuse to get on the school bus because the offender is on it, but then gets disciplined for being disobedient. (I’ve seen this). Or a woman reports her husband to the eldership, and she is reprimanded for being unsubmissive and unforgiving. (I know such a case). Then when she finally leaves her husband, she is considered a reprobate.

Perhaps an abused girl goes on to be a prostitute. Or perhaps a troubled boy is struggling with extreme fear/anger sense of helplessness or whatever may predispose him to seek out and exploit weaker subjects rather than enjoy a mature marriage relationship. So the problem begins festering long before it gets full blown and addictive. It is shaped and reinforced in an environment with weakness and sickness in the relationships – family /church/society.

This sin condition seems to flourish easily in a religious environment that operates in hypocrisy. Here finely-polished pretense has greater authenticity than truthfulness in all its ugly and “unspiritual” expressions.

It doesn’t help when the Christian community uses terminologies that hinder this path to truthfulness. How does one come to value negative “gut feelings” when you are taught that feelings are unreliable – or perhaps “soulish” – unspiritual, or considered “carnal”.

Now you can see why I do not like certain words, and why I would suggest using more specific terms that can be more useful. The word “soulish” ( a human invention) could easily suggest that any natural feelings from deep within are to be suppressed – considered unspiritual.

The word “carnal” biblically refers to the flesh – which, in itself is not evil. Yet “carnal” is now essentially a word for a vague, general idea of sin. Consider the problem when flesh (or sex) is viewed as evil. In so much of church history sexual activity has been overly demeaned. And then years later it all comes to the surface through the publicizing of of sexual abuse.

The field of “psychology” may be considered evil and worldly, but let’s not throw out the baby with the bathwater – lest we create our own psychology – bad psychology at that – our own way of understanding which merely blocks the path to God’s wonderful redemptive healing through Christ. Jesus did not die for our plastic superficial selves or for only a teeny portion of our being. He died for who we truly are – fallen human beings separated from the Father by sin, with a bent from birth onward to fix our troubles apart from God. Jesus died that we may be united with him in wholeness – in his resurrected life.

And as has been insinuated here, we are all both victims and perpetrators of sin. And regardless of our own sin history, a continuous life of repentance is the only way. That’s not merely stopping certain behaviors, but turning ever more intently to our Lord for the provisions of his new life. In learning to live well in his new life, we need each other. Those with sin weaknesses need a community of mature people who are good examples and also are in the habit of holding each other accountable.

To the extent that the people of God fail to grow and mature – they are part of the problem.

Diane

..... and conversely:

To the extent that the people of God grow and mature in their calling, they can be part of the solution.

I want to share an email that Zac Poonen wrote to his Church elders regarding a similar child molestation charge on a famous Christian worker. I have Removed the concerned person's name.
_____________________________
Dear brothers,

XXXX was the leader of the well-known organization ZZZZ. He had worked with them for 30 years. He was 65 years old and a grandfather. But he was recently under police investigation for an allegation that he had behaved improperly with a 10-year old girl. He was found dead 2 weeks ago. It is suspected that he had committed suicide in order to avoid the scandal from affecting his family and his grandchildren.

XXXX was associated with YYYY(who founded ZZZZ) for many years. XXXX had been imprisoned in Cuba for distributing tracts from an airplane, but he was released after some time. It now looks as if he was safer in the prison in Cuba than after he got fame in the USA!!

There are three areas where Christian leaders and preachers have always faced serious temptations - and that many are facing increasingly in our day:
1. Sexual sin. This seems to be plaguing Christian leaders everywhere nowadays – especially in the USA. I feel that the reason is that many of them are secretly watching internet pornography. This is usually the prelude that leads to falling into sexual sin. We must be radical in resisting this temptation totally. Always being alert and running away from it, is the only way to total freedom in this area. One step along this dark path will lead to another and after a while there will be no stopping. It will become an addiction. And then one day our shame will become public knowledge and embarrass us and our family members. There are probably thousands more of today’s Christian leaders who are impure in this area. Everyone will be exposed one day – if not now then at Christ’s judgment seat (which will be worse). Remember that XXXX was 65 years old and had been active in Christian work for 30 years! This addiction has no age-limit. But if we keep resisting it, the strength of this temptation will become weaker and weaker.
2. Fame. This is another problem that many Christian leaders are facing today. Most of them do not realize that fame can destroy them. Jesus and Paul and the true prophets were always unpopular and ridiculed by people. That was a protection for them. God said that the outer covering of the tabernacle (a picture of the church) was to be of an ugly brown ram’s skin. The beautifully embroidered golden threaded covering was to be on the inside. This is God’s way – reproach on the outside and glory on the inside. “The King’s bride is glorious INSIDE” (Psa.45:13). God puts “a canopy of reproach over all the glory within (the church)” (Isaiah 4:5). God kept CFC also under a covering of reproach and ridicule for many years – and this has protected us. A lot of that reproach is still there. But now many have begin to appreciate CFC for the blessing that we have been to them. So, we are now in far greater danger than before – and we must be alert.
3. Money. Many reports are sent out about Christian work whose only purpose is to get money. This has destroyed many Christian worker and their ministry spiritually – even though their work may have grown in size. My own policy has been that I have no right to ask anyone to support the Lord’s work with money, AS LONG AS I STILL HAVE ONE RUPEE LEFT IN MY OWN BANK ACCOUNT. Since I have always had more than one rupee in my bank account, I have never asked anyone for money – either for myself or for my ministry. God has always provided us what we needed – whatever amount He saw was fitting for our ministry. If we had received too much, we may have got involved in ministries that God never wanted us to be involved in. So financial shortage has been a protection

It is mainly because of failure in these three areas, that most preachers today lack a fresh revelation from God’s Word and also lack the anointing of the Spirit when they preach.

We are not called to judge others or to find fault with men who have fallen. But we must humbly learn from their failures and keep our faces in the dust always, for we all have the same flesh. The one who boasts inwardly that he has not fallen will be the first to fall. We must walk in the light before God’s face and also maintain a close fellowship with our fellow-elders, at all times.

May the Lord preserve us all.

Your brother,
Zac Poonen