Do men sin because they are sinners or are they sinners because they sin ???

What is your view of St Augustines Doctrine of Original sin ?? A change in my understanding of the subject greatly changed my life!

Both. What changed your understanding?

In Christ: Phillip

QUOTE: "Do men sin because they are sinners or are they sinners because they sin ???"==PROUDPAPA

BOTH.

Re: What changed your understanding?

I had my understanding challenged.

For years I struggled in habitual sin a sincere Christian on one hand but a slave to sin on the other. I excused it in my head by the orthodox misunderstanding of Romans 7 as the normal Christian Life and a belief that my very nature was sin.

I've heard Chuck Smith explain it this way:
When a person steals a horse it doesn't make him a horse thief, it just proves that he already is one.

The important thing is that the horse thief is guilty of this sin at the point in time when he decides in his heart to commit the sin and not at the conclusion of the stealing of the horse. Sin is a matter of the heart first and foremost. Only after the heart is corrupted will the body act on it. Romans chapters 6 and 7 view sin as a principle acting on the heart, mind and will of a person. The fruit of this inward corruption is the act of sin. The religious Pharisees of Jesus' time were extremely careful and observant of external outer deeds (whether sinful or righteous) and ignored the more important state of the heart. Jesus rebuked them and declared that lusting in the heart after a woman is just as sinful as actually committing fornication and railing at someone as a fool is a sin worthy of death and hell.

hi, watch out for coveting.

Re: When a person steals a horse it doesn't make him a horse thief, it just proves that he already is one.

If the man had not believed in his heart that he was a horse thief would he have stole the horse??

proudpapa said:

If the man had not believed in his heart that he was a horse thief would he have stole the horse??

My response:
What a strange question. I have no idea what point you are trying to make or where you are going with this question.

I have never heard of criminals asking themselves "do I believe I am a criminal?" before committing a crime. I've heard both sides of the arguments for original sin and against it (Pelagianism) and I don't recall anyone bringing up the idea that one's own personal belief about one's state of sinfulness had any bearing on anything. There are plenty of criminals who with a straight face have no shame or any remorse and see nothing wrong with their behavior. They are deluded and have a conscience that is seared as with a hot iron. It proves nothing.

"RE: My response: What a strange question. I have no idea what point you are trying to make or where you are going with this question."

OK Let me ask it this away If the horse thief had believed in his heart that he was dead to sin imputed with the righteousness of Christ freed from sin a child of God would he be still be tempted to steal the horse ??

"RE There are plenty of criminals who with a straight face have no shame or any remorse and see nothing wrong with their behavior. They are deluded and have a conscience that is seared as with a hot iron. It proves nothing."

I agree on the surface they do not show shame or remorse but they are controled by Guilt. They will use every drug,drink or other sin to escape for one second the reality of what there conscience screams at them.

Hi! ProudPapa
I'm hoping you mean your Nick to say that your Heavenly Papa is exceedingly pleased with you. :)
I start with the asking of a question:
Let's say you are watching the television News and you see the News Anchor plainly displayed on the screen.
If you tore the TV set apart into a zillion pieces, would you find the News Anchor?
Of course not.
The News Anchor was merely imaged on the screen; his actual person was located perhaps three hundred miles distance.
We can use the same metaphor to describe a situation that belongs to every man.
If we were to tear a man apart into microscopic pieces we would never discover a thought nor find the person himself.
This is primarily because both the TV and man behave as receivers. Depending on which channel you choose, dictates what image is displayed on the TV screen. Depending which side of the Kingdom of Heaven a man is seeking inspiration from dictates what becomes evident in/through his physical body.
If a man is seen bent over under depression, you know that he is being inspired from the dark side of the Kingdom of Heaven ... the kingdom of darkness. If a man displays joy and peace, you know that he has his thoughts on things from out of the Kingdom of Light.
This is how we must view sin. Sin does not belong to us ... the ideas behind Original Sin are entirely wrong. But we can volunteer to take possession of the powers of sin ... agree with their inspirations ... put our faith in their lies and subsequently become injured within our inner man.
There is alot more that could be said about Sin, but I don't think anyone desires a lengthy Bible Study about it here. :)

Oh, I see where you are coming from now. You are talking about a born again believer who has a history in the past of stealing horses and who now is reckoning themselves dead to sin. Would he be tempted?

From my experience, true faith and trust in the finished work of Christ (death, burial, and resurrection) means that we need not struggle or try by willpower to deliver ourselves. Any kind of panic praying is a sure sign that you will fall. Give it into God's hands and take your own hand off the matter. This really isn't passivity as the critics would portray it. It is resting in the victory that the Lord has already won for us. Battle from a position of victory not for victory. Sanctification is obtained, not attained.

The only other thing I would add is that not focusing on temptation and sin is crucial. Live out of and see yourself as your new man identity in Christ. If you think the Christian life is constantly battling sin, it will be. I cannot stress enough the importance of seeing yourself as righteous and holy IN CHRIST. Live out of that identity and reality. It is a moment by moment walk. You will fall. Pick up and continue in the Spirit. I am not preaching sinless perfectionism here.

"RE: My response: What a strange question. I have no idea what point you are trying to make or where you are going with this question"

RE: I Wrote If the horse thief had believed in his heart that he was dead to sin imputed with the righteousness of Christ freed from sin a child of God would he still be tempted to steal the horse ??

OK lets say rather than believing this in his heart he believed That truly what he was was a horse thief he could not help it, His great grandfather was a horse thief and it is in his DNA to be a horse thief even though on the one hand he believes he has been imputed with rightousness he also believes at the same time he is a horse thief it is in his blood. It will always be a part of him in this life because it is in his blood and at times it will control him and at times his new nature will control him.
Will this man still be tempted to be a horse thief??

My last post went out before this one came in.

"RE: Oh, I see where you are coming from now. You are talking about a born again believer who has a history in the past of stealing horses and who now is reckoning themselves dead to sin. Would he be tempted?

From my experience, true faith and trust in the finished work of Christ (death, burial, and resurrection) means that we need not struggle or try by willpower to deliver ourselves. Any kind of panic praying is a sure sign that you will fall. Give it into God's hands and take your own hand off the matter. This really isn't passivity as the critics would portray it. It is resting in the victory that the Lord has already won for us. Battle from a position of victory not for victory. Sanctification is obtained, not attained.

The only other thing I would add is that not focusing on temptation and sin is crucial. Live out of and see yourself as your new man identity in Christ. If you think the Christian life is constantly battling sin, it will be. I cannot stress enough the importance of seeing yourself as righteous and holy IN CHRIST. Live out of that identity and reality. It is a moment by moment walk. You will fall. Pick up and continue in the Spirit. I am not preaching sinless perfectionism here."

AMEN.

Romans chapter 6 tells us that when Christ died on the Cross, we were there with him and died with him. We died to sin. I interpret that to mean that our new-born spirit man is dead to sin and cannot sin. We live in bodies and have a soul that is not redeemed or glorified yet and they can lead us to sin if we aren't spirit controlled believers. Born again believers are meant to live from their spirit. That is to say their spirit rules over their soul and body. Paul says that in his flesh dwells "no good thing." The flesh will always want to commit sin. The deeds of the flesh listed in Galatians are all sins. The mind of the believer is not fully renewed. Old memories of sinful reveries are always accessible and can fuel sinful passions in an instant.

To get back to your point about sin being in your DNA: that all died with Christ. It has to be reckoned a fact to experience the reality of it. It is not something felt or experienced by mere mental assent or acquiescence to a theological doctrine. And even then, the body and soul can still pull one's affections to be sinfully inclined. We are free from sin's domain, but we must walk soberly and watchfully because our bodies and unrenewed parts of our minds still enjoy sin and will pull us in that direction if we aren't careful.

Hi! True Witness
I have read your Post with great interest. Thanks for sharing it with us here.

"Dead to sin". That particular phrase seems to have been abused by many of us at one time or another. Perhaps it could be better understood as "dead to the power of Sin".
You wrote: "True faith and trust in the finished work of Christ ... means that we need not struggle or try by will power to deliver ourselves". This kind of thinking does not seem to have been the experience of Jesus. Maybe you should re-read the numerous scriptural accounts of His struggles. And, re-read similar accounts about His apostles too.

You are correct in saying that you're not recommending 'passivity'. I perceive it more in keeping with the act of 'treading water'.
It all can become such a confusing play on words and therein is the stealth of the falsehood.

If we say that the victory is not won as yet, there will be an audible gasp of disapproval. If we say that the victory has been won but that we simply need to confess it for ourselves, it removes the need for us to desire an intimate cooperation with the eternal purposes of God.
What I found most puzzling was that on one hand you state that "we need not struggle" and a few sentences later state the contrary, "battle from a position of victory". Which one is it? If the victory is already accomplished, there should be no further need to battle.

Of course, you have the additional simplistic advice of "not focusing on temptation and sin". But this too is at serious odds with Scripture.

The flood of Noah’s days is an image of the things that will happen in the latter days. At the flood, the windows of the heavens were opened and also the fountains of the great deep as the waters covered the whole earth. Similarly, the Bible states that in the latter days an invasion of powers from heaven will throw themselves on the earth and the hosts of the powers called up from the Bottomless Pit will cover the earth.

The biblical flood is an image of the great tribulation. As Noah was saved in the visible world from the flood that covered the earth, so the Lord is preparing a people to Himself in these days which will be saved from the fiery ordeal that is about to engulf the entire earth. The spiritual life of the people who are not in Christ will then be completely overwhelmed by the powers of darkness. Jesus said: “Upon the earth distress of nations in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, men fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world; for the powers of heaven will be shaken”, (Luke 21:25-26).

There is no mention of fire or flood insurance in the Bible.

On the contrary! The Bible does implores us to, “take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand”. It speaks of those who are sealed and filled with the Spirit of God and how these will be able to overcome.

RE: Both

Did Jesus Christ have a sinful nature ??

Hi Proudpapa,

You asked:
"Did Jesus Christ have a sinful nature ??"

A friend of mine I think answered this pretty well when he said:

"Jesus is a good example during his incarnation, his divine nature is/was incapable of sinning. And His having a divine nature partly explains why he never sinned.
God has free will and yet simultaneously he cannot go against His nature (nor Deny Himself) so he cannot sin."

Russ

What is St Augustines Doctrine of Original sin....?

What is the orthodox misunderstanding of Romans 7?

Quote:
"Jesus is a good example during his incarnation, his divine nature is/was incapable of sinning. And His having a divine nature partly explains why he never sinned."

I disagree. I agree that Jesus was fully God and fully man. However, he emptied Himself of divine atributes at his incarnation (Phil 2:5-7).

If Jesus was truly incapable of sinning, then his temptations were meaningless.

"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are —yet he did not sin." Heb 4:15

If Jesus was unable to sin, then he was not truly tempted as we are in every way.

This makes the fact that he never sinned all the more remarkable.

Quote: OK lets say rather than believing this in his heart he believed That truly what he was was a horse thief he could not help it, His great grandfather was a horse thief and it is in his DNA to be a horse thief even though on the one hand he believes he has been imputed with rightousness he also believes at the same time he is a horse thief it is in his blood. It will always be a part of him in this life because it is in his blood and at times it will control him and at times his new nature will control him.

Will this man still be tempted to be a horse thief??

Seems that the horse theif has two opposing forces at work and he needs deliverance as he not only has a enemy outside but a enemy within....

I am glad that when deliverance came to me, what I was delivered from was no longer apart of me it was cast out...

Edit:- I have to add this part...

I hope your not saying that we must accept the fact that we can never be changed. As I see that you say it will always be with him and will at times control him.. That is not the gospel message..

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised..

Deliverance is a removal of the cause of sin, not an accpetance of it...

RE: TMK wrote
"If Jesus was truly incapable of sinning, then his temptations were meaningless.

"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are —yet he did not sin." Heb 4:15

If Jesus was unable to sin, then he was not truly tempted as we are in every way.

This makes the fact that he never sinned all the more remarkable."

Amen, I agree

RE: murrcolr wrote
"I am glad that when deliverance came to me, what I was delivered from was no longer apart of me it was cast out..."

Amen!

RE:murrcolr wrote
" I hope your not saying that we must accept the fact that we can never be changed. As I see that you say it will always be with him and will at times control him.. That is not the gospel message.."

Amen! I agree with you. You miss understood the point that I was trying to make by comparing the two different mind sets that the horse thief could aproach his temptation with.

why do men sin ??

Ummmm, a question please:
Are there people here that agree that Jesus possessed a sinful nature?
The reason I'm asking is because I was more than a bit astonished by reading: "RE: Both Did Jesus Christ have a sinful nature ?? ".
I don't agree with this idea at all. It's utterly preposterous to think that Jesus had a sinful nature. Neither did Jesus have what is known as "original sin".

Re: Blayne wrote
"RE: Did Jesus Christ have a sinful nature ?? ".
I don't agree with this idea at all. It's utterly preposterous to think that Jesus had a sinful nature. Neither did Jesus have what is known as "original sin".

Amen, I agree it is a preposterous Idea.

I believe Jesus was born perfectly innocent.
I was not trying to make a statement that Jesus had a sinful nature, that would be silly of me since my entire point is that no one is born with a sinful nature.

The phrase sinful nature is not found in the scriptures!

The scriptures say that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Jesus said man must be born again to enter the kingdom of God. Jesus did not need to be born again only the fallen human race. Unless people are regenerated they can’t be in the kingdom of God. Jesus says that mankind is evil. Why do you think he says we are evil? Jesus has never been nor ever will be evil. Jesus says unless we all repent then we will perish.

RE:rbanks wrote
" The scriptures say that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

Amen, I agree!

RE: rbanks wrote
"Jesus said man must be born again to enter the kingdom of God. Jesus did not need to be born again only the fallen human race."

all grown men and women have sinned and need to be born again. I agree or are you meaning infants also??

What did St Augustine believe happened to infants that died and had not been Baptized??

I do not believe in limited atonement as some teach but I believe Jesus made atonement for all mankind. I believe infants are atoned for until they reach an age of accountability that whereby they sin willfully with a knowledge of right from wrong. Jesus said suffer the little children to come unto me for of such are the kingdom of Heaven.

RE rbanks Wrote "I do not believe in limited atonement as some teach but I believe Jesus made atonement for all mankind. I believe infants are atoned for until they reach an age of accountability that whereby they sin willfully with a knowledge of right from wrong. Jesus said suffer the little children to come unto me for of such are the kingdom of Heaven."

AMEN!!

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous

Was God Adams biological father?

Who is Adams spirit father in whom he believed?

Who is all of mankinds original bilogical father?

Was Jesus created or birthed bilogical of His Father?

Before I was saved my father Adam passed on to me who I was, birthed in sin, and surely will die, by the curse.

After God put His Seed in Mary, Jesus was birthed all God and all man. The only way He could die was to lay down His life for those that are now God's children, Jesus also by His own power could take His life up again.

Now that we are saved by the incorruptable Seed of the Father rebirthed in us by Grace through Faith, "that not of ourselves", we are now the same as Christ is in Spirit becoming the same in soul/mind and will be the same as He is in resurrection, this is the hight calling of God we strive according to His working, which works in us mightily and towards, which we don't know exactily what that will be, but as He is so will we be and as He is so are we in this world, but still have a blessing of this dying flesh being put in the ground as a corn of wheat and will bring forth fruit as Jesus said. Except those that are alive at His coming for His bride, who will be changed in the twinkling of and eye and will be taken to be Jesus forever, in His an now, our Father's House with many mansions.

Just some more fuel for the questions asked on this subject. The Word says the Holy Spirit will reveal who Jesus is and won't speak of Himself, but only what Jesus gives Him, The Holy Spirit to say to us, and if we don't understand the Holy Spirit will reveal even this to us.

In Christ: Phillip

Hi! ChristInYou
Ummm, I honestly don't mean to appear rude. I have to first ask the question of whether you want/need a point-by-point response to your multi-questions. I don't wish to waste time and effort to answer something you merely asked half-hazardly.

You asked the following:
1. Was God Adams biological father?
2. Who is Adams spirit father in whom he believed?
3. Who is all of mankinds original bilogical father?
4. Was Jesus created or birthed bilogical of His Father?

You also accompanied the above questions with the comment:
"Before I was saved my father Adam passed on to me who I was, birthed in sin, and surely will die, by the curse."

While I'm awaiting your advice as to whether you sincerely anticipate the above questions to be answered, I'll try to give you an answer concerning your claim that "Adam passed on to me who I was, birthed in sin".

Your confession that all men are conceived in sin is incorrect.

It's of great importance to have a scripturally clear image of the deeds of creation pertaining to our origin.

Unfortunately there are some who have a very limited imagining of their beginnings and about the marvelous exciting things within the heart of God at their birth.

Our beginnings were conceived in the very heart of God; in God's being and from the depths of God. John 1:1 says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made".

In God "the Word" was formed and that 'word' is the substance of all things which were to be. God worked on a plan. In His inner self a fantastically marvelous idea evolved; a thought containing all. And it was with God. It was hidden with God as a yet an unspoken thought. The word was with God; the word was God. In the beginning, this word was with God and all things came to be of that word, (this thought), and became the basis of God's plan.

The Apostle John stated that without this Word was not anything made that was made. That plan, that unspoken word, is what formed the beginning. Before God spoke one word, that word - meaning the complete plan of God - was in Him, and God had thought of everything, (including even the smallest details), and considered and concluded to Himself: This is it! This is the plan I will accomplish.

A proper insight into our origins affords a view of our completion. The reverse is also true. Our majestic completion confirms our splendid origin.

So, 'ChristInYou', again I repeat to you that insight into the original plan and purposes of God with man is extremely important. If we understand what God's original intentions were, it is possible to recognize and realize everything that differs. It is a proper focus on the original which allows us a proper view of the conclusion when pondering the eternal purposes of God. God continues to work and carries out His plans from out of His original intentions. His actions are always based on the "word that is from the beginning" and are aimed to complete realization of that word, that plan.

Therefore, it's urgent that we orientate our minds to Scripture so that we can properly answer the questions: Where are we from? Where are we going?

John 1:1 says, "In the beginning was the Word". This verse tells us about the time preceding Genesis 1:1. The creator started executing His plan only after everything concerning this plan had completely matured. God didn't start on impulse. He prepared everything in an uninterrupted peace and confidence. Not surprisingly, this posture characterizes His very being. God is absolutely confident about His plan. It is because of this that His work can never be hindered.

What did God think? What did the word contain? Can we hear and understand it? Amos 4:13 tells us that, "God, declareth unto man what is His thought". While we are presently unable to be entirely complete about this, we do however have valuable insights. We can, from the works of God, construct the original plan of God. Therefore, we now understand that God wanted to give from Himself; He wanted us to be a part of Him. God wanted a partner to whom He could give Himself completely in love and in whom He could rejoice until eternity passed. This partner would be able to return His love and have an enormous amount of possibilities and thus God would never lose interest in him. This partner would be able to be a part of all of God's plans.

This partner, of whom God was thinking, would be on His level. A partner able to live in an atmosphere of pure love and who would, from out of their free will, dedicate all their created abilities and talents to a relationship in complete dependence on God. God wasn't thinking of a second God, but He thought of a worthy partner that would fit Him perfectly and harmoniously. A woman to God, after His image and likeness. We could describe it as "complementary" to God; completely belonging to one another in being and works.

God pictured Himself a being that would fulfill all His needs. He saw a being with unimaginable, never ending possibilities. A being with a heart that could love Him. A being that could develop in many respects, in quality and quantity. A being that would manifest itself in infinite variations and in many personalities so God would be able to manifest Himself completely in him. A being in whom God could be "all in all", (1Cor 15:28). This total of personalities could live together formed as one. Each individually and together forming a unity in a love relationship with God. This was the substance of God's motivation and to which everything visible and invisible evolved. This would come forth from Him to be created by Him and exist for the glory of His blessedness.

Of what being was God thinking? God was thinking of man; of you and me. All of God's plans and purposes are based on that thought: on God's longing for man. It was man, who would be created as "God's son"; born from God, and to God, and would grow into an adult son. Man, with his (by God) created potential to grow into a mankind, who as God's wife would live with Him until eternity.

In order to acquire this woman, God created everything that would be needed. In His thoughts He prepared the greatest work possible. A perfect work. A creation, a grand godly creation. Since the beginning God had us envisioned. There would be a heaven and an earth, richly and abundantly provided with all possibilities and means to prepare that man for his godly destiny. It is for that purpose that God created the heaven and the earth, (Gen.1:1).

From that very moment of that God said "Let us make man" until now, God hasn't changed and neither will He ever change. Our God continues to work firmly on the complete realization of all that was with Him in the beginning. At every moment, God sees that potential candidate in you and me, -that unique being-, that is destined to mature and develop into that godly level where we are revealed as the bride of God and in whom God is all things in all.

The first thing we notice about Genesis 1 is that God does not do everything at once. Rather, God chose to pursue a unique principle of growth and development which offered unprecedented and unlimited possibilities. It is through this godly principle that God realizes His plan.

God wanted to acquire His partner. If God had created a partner ready-made, there wouldn't have been anything to "acquire". So, through the growth and development of talents that were created by God, man could enter into a close relationship with God and evolve into a mature independent being. This independent being could volunteer to follow after God's intentions and needs with all that is in him through free will and love.

With God exists total calmness, complete security and unshakable faith in His own plan and work which is accompanied by an inexhaustible amount of energy. It is good to remind ourselves constantly of this. We should both respect and honor God in this and also find the basis for our own life in this knowledge. We are invited to cooperate with God's ultimate intentions for us from out of this same calmness and security. God's work will reach completion in our lives, for God wants it. God will succeed!

'ChristInYou', Do you see where I'm going with this? I want to clearly show you that your thinking about your origins is completely opposite to the thoughts of God towards you.

I will happily continue the comments further if you think it could help you better understand things. But I don't want to be spending time and effort for nothing. So, please let me know if you want me to continue with this explanation and also if you wish your questions answered. I'd be more than happy to contribute an answer if I would at least know that that is what you were sincerely asking with your Post.

dear blayne,i think that you might have missed some scripture on the way to forming your opinion. those that believe not are condemned already... also, for one mans sin, sin entered the world and for ones righteousness ... Jesus conquered sin on the cross and death by being raised from the dead.we must be into Him by faith though grace and know Him in an intimate way to partake in the gospel promises.... depart from me you workers of iniquity for I never knew you.it is very simple, we owe a price we cannot pay and He paid a cost He did not owe. we apropriate this trough our believing in Him and His finished work.jimp we all are somewhat skewed.(except me of course.lol

Hi! Jimp
I'm sorry but I don't have a clue what I may have Posted to prompt this comment by you. I'm still breathless by how I could be so misunderstood by you.
I don't disagree with anything you contained in your comment/reply.
However, while your statement(s) might appear to ring true at first glance, they nonetheless remain (at least in my opinion) disjointed and incompatible to the whole of Scripture.

You quoted the Scripture: "Those that believe not are condemned already".
I immediately want to ask, "Condemned by who?".
But I suppose that this is yet another subject we might want to discuss on another day.

Yes, it is indeed Biblical that sin entered the world through one man.
--> Depending on how one chooses to define the meaning of the term sin in this particular reference greatly affects the value imputed to your statement.

You wrote: "Jesus conquered sin on the Cross and death by being raised from the dead".
---> Do you know that Jesus was crucified spiritually as well as physically? (Compare Mark 15:22 and Revelation 11:7). This truth is revealed in the Parable of the Pearl.

You see what I am meaning to say?
There isn't sufficient room in this Forum to be precise and exact about everything; otherwise everyone would be needing to compose a book to portray their thoughts.
The Bible oftentimes reads like the facets of a diamond and the entire brilliance of the treasures in it cannot possibly be contained under a single thread of thought or within a single subject line.
It's near impossible to answer every question held by every heart and mind here. Most times all most of us do here is hurry through a rapid reply. And even when we do manage to submit something lengthy to perhaps explain things better, it hardly will be suitable for everyone.
:)

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by jimp on 2012/5/30 1:09:38

dear blayne,i think that you might have missed some scripture on the way to forming your opinion. those that believe not are condemned already... also, for one mans sin, sin entered the world and for ones righteousness ... Jesus conquered sin on the cross and death by being raised from the dead.we must be into Him by faith though grace and know Him in an intimate way to partake in the gospel promises.... depart from me you workers of iniquity for I never knew you.it is very simple, we owe a price we cannot pay and He paid a cost He did not owe. we apropriate this trough our believing in Him and His finished work.jimp we all are somewhat skewed.(except me of course.lol
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dear blayne, if Jesus died spiritually, He would have ceased being very God as well as very man. this is a real problem when God stops being God and becomes subserving of His creation. this doctrine is the worst and my old friend ken hagins followers are spreading this error also. nobdy is perfect but this might be the worse doctrine to ever come out of mans imagination.jimp

Hi! Jimp

How 'bout I explain it this way:

Is the unrepentant sinner spiritually dead?
I believe your answer would be "Yes" because this fact is plainly stated in Ephesians 2:1 where it says: "And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins".
Therefore, the following questions become answered:
Did Jesus not spiritually die after taking on Himself OUR trespasses and sins? Did Jesus not pay the wages of our sins? And, what does the Bible say about the wages of sin? "The wages of sin is death".

You see, Jimp. You probably didn't even understand what I was trying to say right from the start. Nevertheless, you hurried to accuse me of following some bizarre error assigned to Ken Hagin.

Listen, Jimp, you don't have to blindly agree with my Posts; I wouldn't ask you or anyone else to do that. However, you shouldn't be so eager to dismiss someone's opinion without at least making some attempt to seriously examine it.
I myself read every word you have addressed to me. I never sit here thinking that your thoughts are somehow devilish or of no value.
Yes, there are some thoughts of yours that I may not instantly agree with. That's not a problem for me because I came here to share and learn ... not to dictate to someone.

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by jimp on 2012/5/30 2:22:44

dear blayne, if Jesus died spiritually, He would have ceased being very God as well as very man. this is a real problem when God stops being God and becomes subserving of His creation. this doctrine is the worst and my old friend ken hagins followers are spreading this error also. nobdy is perfect but this might be the worse doctrine to ever come out of mans imagination.jimp

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ah, but He had no sin of His own to die from . he did take the sins of the world upon Him and did become our sin offering.He gave Himself up on the cross ,but did not die spiritually. what He did do was cut a new covenant between God and man in His flesh. jimp

Hi! Amrkelly
Thank you for commenting on my participation in the Thread.
I have read your words/advice carefully.
Perhaps, I should have simply left "well-enough-alone" as they say. Some things are better left unsaid.
My intent of visiting here was certainly not wishing to cause contention.
Sorry 'bout that. I'll jus' drop it an' move on.

Hi! Jimp
Sorry, but I'm movin' on.
This discussion isn't worth the candle.
Letz jus' drop it.
I arrived here 'accidentally' a few days ago during a Google Search of a specific biblical term. After reading the Post, I contacted the Poster via his E-Mail and received the answer to my research. I had some spare time between projects and I thought I might find it beneficial to participate here further. But the very last thing I wanted to do was get into what I have now gotten myself into.
Katch yuh laters!
Keep Smiling!
God Bless!

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by jimp on 2012/5/30 3:34:41

ah, but He had no sin of His own to die from . he did take the sins of the world upon Him and did become our sin offering.He gave Himself up on the cross ,but did not die spiritually. what He did do was cut a new covenant between God and man in His flesh. jimp

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blayne, your input here is welcome and i honor your right to be different from me. i am 73 and have been in the ministry for 48 years and have changed my theology often in these years. i humbly ask your forgivness if i have offended you in any way. i have been fortunate to have been friends with many great men who had input in my life and have kept me from my own stupidity. if i have anything at all going for me it has to be the Holy Spirits leading.my call is to love you and everyone elsein the family of God.jimp

Hi! Jimp
If yuh hadn't of mentioned that you were 73 and with 48 years in the ministry, I probably would not be chattin' yuh now. :)
I had to return an' greet someone else and saw your very gracious post.
Well, Jimp, yuh really touched my heart after telling me more about yourself. I'm kinna' gittin' tuh like yuh. :)
Anyways, I'm not at all familiar with the people who participate here. I'm especially ignorant of their spiritual journey and beliefs. It makes it very difficult to, as the song says, "Know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em". :)
So, Jimp, how about we keep in touch by E-Mail? I would really like that very much. What yuh think?

Here's my thoughts towards you: (SOUND ON)

http://www.tolovejesus.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=143

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by jimp on 2012/5/30 3:57:42

blayne, your input here is welcome and i honor your right to be different from me. i am 73 and have been in the ministry for 48 years and have changed my theology often in these years. i humbly ask your forgivness if i have offended you in any way. i have been fortunate to have been friends with many great men who had input in my life and have kept me from my own stupidity. if i have anything at all going for me it has to be the Holy Spirits leading.my call is to love you and everyone elsein the family of God.jimp
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I want to remind everyone of my motive with this topic.
I spent years in habitual sin a slave to it. All the time excusing it in my head as my old sin nature and a Romans 7
miss understanding "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I." as the normal Christian Life.
I do not want to Argue but Challenge your thinking.
We should not jump to offence just because our thinking is challenged. We should do as the bereans and search the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Is man Intrinsically Evil?? From What I am reading of many of the post it seems that many would answer yes?? Where did such a doctrine originate from??
If the infant is Intrinsically evil than would we not have to agree with Augustine that the infant that dies goes to Hell.

I do not agree that men is Intrinsically evil.

Is sin Substance as the Gnostics taught or is it choice as the Bibe clearly teaches??

Quote: Is man Intrinsically Evil??

Every baby that is born, is born dead to God and by nature is the child of wrath having a spirit of disobedience...

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)," Eph. 2:1-5

Edit:- spelling

We all know that Adam and Eve "fell." i have always believed, and perhaps i have always been wrong, that Adam and Eve were the only two people who EVER had the possibility of NEVER sinning.

When adam and eve sinned, they were cursed ("by one man sin entered into the world")-- somehow this curse was inherited by their ancestors (us). How this works is a mystery. i personally believe that humans WILL sin. Not that they must live in sin, or sin all the time, but that they will. Scripture tells us this. 1 John is sort of Jekyll and Hyde-ish on the issue-- on the one had we are told that we must not sin and on the other hand we are told that whoever says he does not sin is a big fat liar (i added the big fat part).

To me, "sin nature" just means that sin comes naturally to us. We must struggle mightily to not sin. Romans 7 documents this epic struggle. God did not create us to sin- he created us to NOT sin.

That being said, I do believe that it is possible (theoretically) for each of us to never sin again. Of course theory is different from practice.

Re: murrcolr wrote
"Every baby that is born, is born dead to God and by nature is the child of wrath having a spirit of disobedience..."

So you agree with Augustine??

I do not agree with him. Adam was created (naked) and (innocent) without Law just as was you and I and Jesus.

The Wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who (hold) the truth in unrighteousness.

Men are guilty for holding the truth and rejecting it they are not guilty for being man.
The child does not hold truth he has no law.

NO LAW NO SIN!!

Blayne Wrote:

"""Your confession that all men are conceived in sin is incorrect."""

I don't profess to confess for all men. I only can confess as David did, that I see in me there is no good thing and my pureness of iniquity flows from the head of the waters that are polluted of which I drank even in my mothers womb. I was born of that water and reborn of His Blood.

The Treasury of David
Psalms 51:5
EXPOSITION
Ver. 5. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity. He is thunderstruck at the discovery of his inbred sin, and proceeds to set it forth. This was not intended to justify himself, but it rather meant to complete the confession. It is as if he said, not only have I sinned this once, but I am in my very nature a sinner. The fountain of my life is polluted as well as its streams. My birth tendencies are out of the square of equity; I naturally lean to forbidden things. Mine is a constitutional disease, rendering my very person obnoxious to thy wrath. And in sin did my mother conceive me. He goes back to the earliest moment of his being, not to traduce his mother, but to acknowledge the deep tap roots of his sin. It is a wicked wresting of Scripture to deny that original sin and natural depravity are here taught. Surely men who cavil at this doctrine have need to be taught of the Holy Spirit what be the first principles of the faith. David's mother was the Lord's handmaid, he was born in chaste wedlock, of a good father, and he was himself, "the man after God's own heart;" and yet his nature was as fallen as that of any other son of Adam, and there only needed the occasion for the manifesting of that sad fact. In our shaping we were put out of shape, and when we were conceived our nature conceived sin. Alas, for poor humanity! Those who will may cry it up, but he is most blessed who in his own soul has learned to lament his lost estate.

EXPLANATORY NOTES AND QUAINT SAYINGS

Ver. 1,5. Transgressions ... iniquity ... sin.

1. It is transgressions, (evp), pesha, rebellion. 2. It is iniquity, (Nwe), avon, crooked dealing. 3. It is sin, (tajx), chattath, error and wandering. Adam Clarke.

Ver. 5. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, etc. He said not, "Behold, this evil have I done," but, Behold, I was conceived in sin, etc. He says not, "Behold, I, David," a king, that have received such and such mercies from God, who would have given me more (as God told him), who had that entire communion with him, and graces from him, I, even I, have done this evil. No; he keeps it in till he came to this, and then his heart could hold no longer: Oh, behold I was conceived in sin. His debasement was at his auge here. And to whom is it he utters this behold? What, to men? No; his meaning is not to call on men, q.d., O ye sons of men, behold! That is but his secondary aim, arising out of his having penned it, and delivered it unto the church; but when he uttered it, it was to God, or rather afore God, and yet not as calling on God to behold, for that needed not. David had elsewhere said, "God looked down," etc., "and beheld the sons of men," when speaking of this very corruption. He therefore knew God beheld it sufficiently; but he utters it afore God, or, as spoken of himself between God and himself, thereby to express his own astonishment and amazement at the sight and conviction of this corruption, and at the sight of what a monster he saw himself to be in the sight of God in respect of this sin. It was a behold of astonishment at himself, as before the great and holy God; and therefore it was he seconds and follows it with another behold made unto God: "Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts." And it is as if he had said in both, Oh, how am I in every way overwhelmed, whilst with one eye cast on myself I see how infinitely corrupt I am in the very constitution of my nature; and with the other eye I behold and consider what an infinite holy God thou art in thy nature and being, and what an holiness it is which thou requirest. I am utterly overwhelmed in the intuition of both these, and able to behold no more, nor look up unto thee, O holy God! Thomas Goodwin.

Ver. 5. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, etc. We are not to suppose that David here reflects upon his parents as the medium of transmitting to him the elements of moral evil; and that by the introduction of the doctrine of original sin he intended to extenuate the enormity of his own crimes. On the contrary, we are to regard him as afflicting himself by the humbling consideration that his very nature was fallen, that his transgressions flowed from a heart naturally at enmity with God; that he was not a sinner by accident, but by a depravity of purpose extending to the innermost desires and purposes of the soul; and that there was "a law in his members, warring against the law of his mind, and bringing him into captivity to the law of sin and death" Ro 7:23; and that he was one of a race of guilty beings, none of whom could plead an exemption from an evil heart of unbelief, ready at all times to depart from the living God. Till we see sin in the fountain of the heart, we shall never truly mourn over it in the life and conversation. John Morison.

Ver. 5. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity. He is not low enough down yet, he must come lower. It is not enough for him to confess that the water is filthy at the pool; he goes back to the source, and confesses that the whole river is polluted up to its head. The source is unclean; the very spring wells forth foul waters. Thomas Alexander.

Ver. 5. I was shapen in iniquity. I shall not easily be persuaded to think that parents who are sinners themselves and too much under the influence of bad affections and passions, will be very likely to produce children without transmitting to them some of those disorders and corruptions of nature with which they themselves are infected. And if this be a difficulty, I would beg leave to observe that it is a difficulty which affects natural as well as revealed religion. Since we must take human nature as it is, and if it be really in a state of disorder and corruption, and cannot be otherwise, considering the common law of its production, the difficulty must have been as ancient as the first man that was born; and therefore can be no objection against the truth of revelation, but it must be equally so against natural religion, which must equally allow the thing, if it be in reality a fact, with revelation itself. Samuel Chandler.

Ver. 5. Infants are no innocents, being born with original sin, the first sheet wherein they are wrapped is woven of sin, shame, blood, and filth. Eze 16:4, etc. They are said to sin as they were in the loins of Adam, just as Levi is said to pay tithes to Melchizedek, even in the loins of his forefather Abraham Heb 7:9-10; otherwise infants would not die, for death is the wages of sin Ro 6:23; and the reign of death is procured be the reign of sin, which hath reigned over all mankind except Christ. All are sinners, infected with the guilt and filth of sin; the rot (according to the vulgar saying) over runs the whole flock. Hence David reflects upon original sin as the cause of all his actual, saying, Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Thus man's malady begind betimes, even in our conception; this subtle serpent sowed his tares very early, so that we are all "born in sin." Joh 9:34. Christopher Ness's "Divine Legacy," 1700.

Ver. 5. Notwithstanding all that Grotius and others have said to the contrary, I believe David to speak here of what is commonly called original sin; the propensity to evil which every man brings into the world with him, and which is the fruitful source whence all transgression proceeds. Adam Clarke.

With these other confessions of men, I agree and seek the only confession I can make that the Spirit gives me; "Who will set me free from this body of Death", Praise God, Christ Jesus.

Romans 7:22-25 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? """"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord."""" So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

In Christ my Deliverer: Phillip

Hi! ProudPapa
I would like to suggest that you perhaps consider changing your Nick to "ProudPoster" because you have every right to be exceedingly proud of your confession that men are not intrinsically evil.
I was also pleased to read in another Post of yours that you discovered this wonderful and liberating truth from your personal experience and journey which can often be the the most trustworthy confirmation of all.
Thank you for sharing with us.

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Re: intrinsically evil
by proudpapa on 2012/5/30 11:00:31

Is man Intrinsically Evil?? From What I am reading of many of the post it seems that many would answer yes?? Where did such a doctrine originate from??
If the infant is Intrinsically evil than would we not have to agree with Augustine that the infant that dies goes to Hell.

I do not agree that men is Intrinsically evil.

Is sin Substance as the Gnostics taught or is it choice as the Bibe clearly teaches??

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Hi! TMK
I detected a lot of sincerity in your comments. Your thoughts and accompanying questions/doubts clear show that you are searching.
You are correct with your idea that Adam and Eve were not born with an inner compulsion to sin.
Why was this?

How 'bout I explain it this way:
Everything visible in this world is a shadow or an image of what exists in the unseen/invisible world. For instance, the sun is an image of God because it is the origin of all light. The moon is an image of Jesus Christ because it reflects the glory of the sun and "shines in the darkness". This is basically what Paul was meaning when in Romans he said: "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen".

Having said that, you now know why it's not for nothing that the Bible tells us that faith is "the evidence of things unseen". Nor should it surprise us that we are to "keep our minds on things above". This is because it is only through faith that we can perceive the deeper things of God and testify of His unseen kingdom.

The narrative of Genesis tells us the story of Adam and Eve from both an earthly view as well as a heavenly view. There are many such dual narratives found in Scriptures which use natural images to reveal supernatural realities ... using the visible to reveal the invisible.
God's thoughts had to be understood by both the cave-dweller of past centuries as well as the computer geeks of today. So, He oftentimes spoke in 'parables' to cause the unseen things to become visible to the inner being of man ... and so did Jesus follow after that same manner.

So, TMK, do you see where I'm going with this?
Adam and Eve were planted in Paradise. Paradise is a natural image of an invisible reality ... a parable. The facts of the narrative remain true for two dimensions ... natural and spiritual ... visible and invisible. Those whose eyes have been opened by the Spirit of Truth are able to transpose (through faith) the natural images in the account of Genesis to reveal "the evidence of things unseen" to their personal selves.

This might explain why it is that many sincere and genuine Christians remain unable to extricate themselves from certain contradictions and inconsistencies in their thinking. They have a "veil over their minds" (like the Old Testament saints) and are blind to the unseen dimensions of their lives and Christian experience. It's not for nothing that the Bible says that you and I who "live by faith" enjoy a far superior spiritual experience than John the Baptist and others who remained unaware of the Gospel of the Kingdom.

So, I have no doubt that the answers you seek will be freely given to you by the Holy Spirit. I say this with boldness because of your obvious sincerity as expressed here about the matter.

i think to say we are not born in sin is to ignore ,,,the scripture posted by philip

molden and shapen in iniquity

in sin did my mother concieve me , Psalm 51:5. The text reads – “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me” (NKJV).

Hi! ChristInYou

The bible uses the word sin with four different meanings:
It says that sin came into the world through one man. Here the word sin indicates the unclean and evil spirits and their master: Satan. He took the government of the world away from man. He became the ruler of this world and through (the powers of) sin he rules as a king. This is the meaning in which the following texts have to be taken: 'You were once slaves of sin'; 'He who has died is free from sin' (as the wife is free from her husband after his death); 'Set free from sin'; 'Sin deceived me'; 'So then it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells in me'.

However, just as child is named after his father, so the fruit of the evil one is also called sin. 'I am writing this to you that you may not (commit) sin'. 'He who commits sin is of the devil'. The verb 'to sin' has the meaning of committing a sinful act. 'Go and do not sin again'. Who sinned, this man or his parents?. 'Be angry but do not sin'.

Thus there is the conception and the birth of sin. In between these two stages, sin is in the inner man in a kind of embryonic state.

This is the stage of the sinful thoughts, developing in the spiritual and unseen world. Desire has been impregnated, it has conceived, but as yet sin has not been brought forth as an act. An example of this is hate, of which tier, Lord said that before God it is regarded as murder. So is lust: "Everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart".

The fourth meaning of the word sin is: that which after an act of sin stays behind in the soul, the guilt or debt of sin. This the bible calls the treasure of wrath. Scripture also mentions another, positive treasure in heaven: that which we store up by means of good works. The following verses have the word sin in the meaning of debt or guilt: ' The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world'. 'Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her'. ' In whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins'. Jesus took sin away on the cross at Calvary. There God made his Son to be sin, that is, the Father put on Him the sins of the world that in Him we might be 'the righteousness of God'.

This righteousness is reckoned to us. 'He is the expiation for our sins (guilt), and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world' (1John 2:2) . Notwithstanding this act of deliverance on God's part for the whole of humanity the prophet says: 'If favor is shown to the wicked, he does not learn righteousness (he goes on committing sin); in the land of uprightness he deals perversely and does not see the majesty of the Lord' (Isaiah 26:10).

These words apply not only to natural life but also to spiritual life: 'It is not good that the man should be alone'. True spiritual marriage consists of communion between the Spirit of God and that of man. 'He who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with Him'. ' He yearns jealously over the spirit which he made to dwell in us'. The basis of this divine communion is love in perfect freedom .

A person's fellowship with the evil one, however, is based upon compulsion instead of freedom. After the fall, man's fellowship with God was damaged, therefore there was a change in the marriage between man and woman; the image of that fellowship. Freedom and equality were gone: 'The man shall rule over you'. Whenever the gospel of Jesus Christ is accepted, wherever there is knowledge of the spiritual laws, marriage will also share in the restoration. Inequality and dominion are finished, for, as James says: 'From the beginning it was not so'.

Having said that, would it be too disturbing for you to learn that the confession of David was tainted by his own personal circumstances and uttered as such?

Hi! Brothgary

First I wish to address your reference to David's confession in Psalm 51:
As it happens, David was not an orthodox theologian, steeped in the doctrine of original sin. He was facing hard facts in his own life, and when at the same time he confessed his adultery, he saw the ties between himself and his ancestors. Amasa, the son of his (step?) sister Abigail, could have made the same confession.
It is remarkable that the genealogical registers fail to mention the name of David's mother. It is also remarkable that later none of the sons of Jesse, his older brothers, are made leaders of his army. His generals were the sons of his two sisters Abigail and Zeruja, daughters of their father Nahas (1Chron 2:16 & II Sam 17:25) Why did Jesse fail to include David in the number of his sons, when Samuel called to anoint one of them as the king of Israel ? (1Sam 16:10). It is unbelievable that the confession of one men has become the cornerstone of the doctrine of original sin, especially since no one knows the real reason for his confession.

Brothgary, many people are blind to the simple presentation of the bible and so they try to find a solution by means of the human mind. They lack insight into the nature of sin and its manifestations in daily life and therefore they seek the answer in a profusion of words and differentiations: original sin, hereditary debt, hereditary stain, real sins, sins of commission and omission, offensive sins and sins of weakness, mortal sins and pardonable sins. Instead of seeking the origin of sin in the powers of darkness, as personal forces of evil, they only describe the results of the activities of these evil powers. Jesus' word is still valid: that the devil is the sower of the seeds. Even today he prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking some one to devour.

There are Christians who, without taking into account the author of sin, differentiate between having sin and committing sin. They say that even Jesus had sin, although He did not commit sin.

Such utter rubbish! Profane rubbish!

Some blasphemous people claim that Jesus the author of righteousness, also had to pray: 'Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?' Actually, having sin means one of the following three things: a person has the devil inside himself and is bound or possessed; he bears in his soul the debt or guilt of sin as a treasure of wrath, as a residue of the sins he has committed; or, a third possibility, his inner man has had fellowship with the evil one without the fruit having been born or manifested as a sinful act.

We read that Jesus never committed sin, and this excludes the possibility of guilt. Neither has He known sin, that is, had contact with the evil one. 'The prince of this world approaches and has no rights over me'. If Jesus were to have sin the only remaining possibility is that the devil dwelled in him. In this case the accusation of the Pharisees would have been true:'He is possessed and has a devil'. This shows the blasphemous conclusions which result when sin is made into en abstraction belonging to human nature.

The idea that Jesus had sin they base on Paul's words in Romans 8:3, that Jesus was sent in the likeness of sinful flesh. The apostle, however, was trying to say that Jesus had taken on the same human nature and flesh through which the powers of darkness infiltrate their work into the visible world. As it says: 'Following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience' (Ephesians 2:2). As long as He was on this earth our Lord fought sin that was outside Him. The people He has set free from guilt and bondage also have to fight, not against flesh and blood but against the powers of sin outside them: 'Resist the devil and he will flee from you' (James 4:7).

Sin is first and foremost a fruit conceived by intercourse of the human spirit with an evil spirit. Sin manifests itself in the natural world as work of the flesh. When an evil spirit grips the human spirit (the spirit which He made to dwell in us) the result is sin. When an evil spirit grips our spirit of life (the spirit we have in common with all beings that have a 'living soul') the result is sickness. That is the reason why animals can be sick but are unable to sin. For example, when a spirit of impurity has taken possession of a person, he will also influence this man's spirit of life, and sickness and disease will occur related to the impurity. The expression of a person's face, the shape and carriage of his body sometimes show the type of sin he indulges in. However, if the Holy Spirit dwells in a man he will not only be led on the way of righteousness, but the Holy Spirit will also 'give life to his mortal body', meaning He will make it function after God's laws for the body (Romans 8:11), something his outward appearance will bear evidence of.

James 1:15 says: 'Desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin'. The Old Testament also says the same thing. In Psalm 7:14 we read: 'Behold, the wicked men conceives evil, and is pregnant with mischief, and brings forth lies'. Isaiah 59:4 shows the development of sin in this way: 'They conceive mischief and bring forth iniquity! They hatch adder's eggs'. So the struggle against sin is a struggle against evil powers who try to deceive man and infiltrate his spirit.

The great secret of a child of God's victory over sin is in his refusal to identify himself with it. We have to learn to regard sin as a hostile and foreign element. That is why we should not fight self, but the evil one. When we have a festering sore on our hand, we don't regard it as belonging to us, but rather we try to get rid of it as soon as we can. Jesus is the Savior and deliverer because He sets people free from hostile powers. So we do not pray: 'deliver us from self', but rather: 'Deliver us from (the) evil (one)'.

The activities of the powers of sin can be compared to an electrical current. If someone has made contact with a current, he is electrically charged from top to toe. Where ever you touch him, you will find that power has entered into his whole body. He is in touch with the generator in a powerhouse possibly a hundred miles away. To be set free from the current he has to break contact (repent). Sometimes the current is so powerful, that he himself is unable to break free and needs help from others. This is a picture of the way in which a power of sin works. The difference is, that we are not dealing with a natural force but with a spiritual, supernatural one. At the same time this force is a personality. The way in which sin works can also be compared to osmosis. Osmosis takes place when liquids or gases penetrate trough a seemingly solid wall. An example is the way in which the cells of plants get the water from the soil.

As the bible teaches that the whole world is in the power of the evil one, completely occupied by powers of darkness, it is not difficult to understand that the situation we are in is a very dangerous one. A born again Christian is a light shining in the darkness. The evil powers are always trying to infiltrate. Nobody works on a high voltage power line without due protection. A rubber suit insulates him from the power of the electricity. In the same way a child of God needs a spiritual protection, enabling him to stand against the temptations and wiles of the evil one. For we are not contending against visible enemies of flesh and blood, but against the invisible evil spirits in the heavenly places.

it is worth noting that jesus him self called his chossen apostals evil ,,as evil as you are you know how to give good gifts to you children

evil and wicked have basicly the same meaning

and this scripture can be aplied in a wider contex to all humans

New International Version (©1984)
Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.
New Living Translation (©2007)
These wicked people are born sinners; even from birth they have lied and gone their own way.

English Standard Version (©2001)
The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies

and at the very least suggest that some people in sin befor birth wile still in the womb

paull the apostal also implys that with out the sangtafing powwer of the spirit of one parent at least ,,,.the children are not holy ,which implys sinfull as the contrass

the whole world is under the sway of the evil one also implys the whole human race ,

Hi! Murrcolr
I read your comments concerning sin with great interest.
I would like to add the following:

In a Christian it is normal for sin to be outside himself. If the powers of darkness are inside him, he is in bondage. He then is compelled to sin. If he is free, he may be tempted to sin, and actually commit sin, but he is not compelled to do so. When he is free, he can walk, and only when he walks, can he stumble. A Christian stumbles when he is careless and not sufficiently vigilant. That is why we are told to be constantly vigilant, as our enemy, the evil one, does not sleep. Sin outside ourselves is an enemy and has to be resisted. 'Resist the devil and he will flee from you', (James 4:7). It is terribly important for a Christian to know when he should pray and when he should cast out the devil.

Many people for years and years pray for victory and deliverance without receiving. In many cases this is because the power of sin in them should be cast out in the name of Jesus, as mere prayer will never dislodge him. Generally speaking we should pray about sin only if the powers of sin are outside ourselves. Then we pray: 'Do not lead me into temptation', and temptation always is the work of evil spirits.

We also pray for more power to resist the evil one, for wisdom to have more insight to discern the spirits. We also pray for safe-keeping, for a guard of angels, especially for the children. Deliverance will only be possible if we confess our sins, that means, if we bring them to the light by saying them aloud. By our confession we break away from the power of darkness and disengage ourselves from them. I am not referring to the mentally ill and to people who are heavily bound, as they have to be set free without the co -operation of their own will. I pray that the Lord will give us more insight in this matter.

In principle my sins are the powers of sin attacking me, whom I have made contact with, and whose works I bring forth in the visible world as works of darkness. The sins of my brother are the evil spirits attacking him, whom he has had contact with. However, the iniquity of us all God has laid on Him: Jesus. He is the conqueror, and He gave us the power to resist the evil one in steadfast faith.

There are those who talk about sinlessness. They say, that for a number of years they have not sinned. In my opinion this is a dangerous error.

In the first place these people have a wrong idea of the word sin. If somebody confesses his sins and believes he is cleansed by the blood of the Lamb, he can be free from any sense of guilt. His sins are gone. He is righteous and lives a righteous life. But in his body he still is 'away from the Lord', as if in a foreign country. All the time he is exposed to the attacks of the powers of darkness. The enemy still prowls around as a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. Sometimes Satan's activities are so subtle as to escape the attention. Paul wrote: 'I do not even judge myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me' (1Cor 4:4).

When we call ourselves sinless, we have taken upon ourselves the judgment which is God's. A dangerous thing to do! The bible does not speak of sinlessness, but Paul says: 'Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own'. A few lines further he says:' Let those of us who are mature ...' (Phil 3:12-16).

So our starting point is the imputed righteousness and the proposed perfection, to make these our own through the power of the Holy Spirit, in the unseen world as well as in the visible one. When the sons of God are manifested, they will show the work of the Holy Spirit in perfect victory in their lowly bodies. They will be conformed to the image of the Son of God. Ours is not the task to rack our conscience about our own level of development, how far we have progressed on the way, but only to set our eyes and minds on Jesus, in whose image we are conformed from glory to glory.

We also have some sincere Christians who busy themselves with a dying to self.
Here's the question needing answer:
Does this mean that we don't have to fight self, but only the evil one? Jesus said that those who wish to follow Him, have to deny themselves. Self-denial is the first step on the road towards salvation. What did the Lord mean by this?

As long as a woman is independent and unmarried, she decides for herself what to do and where to go. She is her own master. When this woman marries, though, she gladly and of her own will drops the independence she had. From that moment onward she is united with her husband, and arranges her behavior to suit him. In a good marriage this kind of self-denial is not something difficult but rather a matter of joy. It is an easy yoke and a light burden. Paul writes: 'I have been crucified with Christ and yet I live, that is, no longer my own self, but Christ lives in me. and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in (communion with) the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me'.

In faith the human spirit is married to the Spirit of God 'in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit' (Romans 8:4). It is God's purpose to take up a dwelling place in man, not to kill or subdue man's personality, as in a marriage that has gone wrong and as the devil tries to do, but in order to dwell together in the earthly tabernacle in perfect love and harmony. God has no pleasure in the death of a sinner, but in his repentance, that he may live ! He desires that his people have life, and have it abundantly. Where would man get the power to kill self?

Some say that self has to die. The Spirit of God will not do this, for He is a life-giving Spirit. If self dies, how can Paul say: 'I boast in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ'? Does man have a second self? If not, how can he have fellowship with Christ, if he has no longer his own self? Really, the enemy has an easy job of it if we piously insist that we have killed our own self, for how could there be life in us if we had? Or communion with God? By fighting self, by making laws and precepts, by establishing rules and regulations, we end up in legalistic attitudes where joy and gladness will die. God wants us to struggle in the heavenly places against the powers, the rulers of this world, the evil spirits in the heavenlies, until, having been set free from all our enemies, we may serve Him without fear all the days of our life!

jesus did not have sin ,,im sorry blane

in him there was no sin ,,said the apostal paul

im sorry brother but animals shew excevive greed and jelously ,,but may not be concence of that ,,,,

brother blane i apresiat what you wrote ,,and heartly agree with much of what you write ,,,,,,but it seems to be going into another contex ,or subject ,and doesnt realy touch on the subject ,,,,,,,i was just refuring to being born in sin ,,,,so as baremaster says ,something like this
ill be signing of now ,,,,one last scripture tho to bulster the posision that at the verry least some humams are born in sin

Yes, you heard not; yes, you knew not; yes, from that time that your ear was not opened: for I knew that you would deal very treacherously, and were called a transgressor from the womb

blessings all

Blayne wrote:

"""Having said that, would it be too disturbing for you to learn that the confession of David was tainted by his own personal circumstances and uttered as such?"""

Absoultely not, for that is the intent of man, to flee the wrath of God's judgement. There is only One that can do this for us, as He took all the wrath of God on the cross and made the sinner that believes free from wrath.

Even I know that my confession is only to free His wrath upon me. There is only One that truly loves God His Father, and by and through Him alone am I even able to utter the words, I love you Father and it be acceptable to God.

Romans 5:8-11 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Now by the Grace and mercy of God I am found in Christ which God before the foundation of the world chose Christ to be in me.

Ephesians 1:2-7 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

This is my only glory: The mystery revealed. I a totally losst and depraved sinner made a son of God by His only Son that now lives in me.

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is """"Christ in you"""", the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

""""Christ in you""""and us in Him: Phillip

Hi! Krautfrau
Thank you for sharing your treasure of truth and light with us here. I am greatly encouraged to read your remarkable spiritual insight.
Most people who have arrived at your confession also contain a story of great anguish in during their Christian journey. These truths you spoke of are not discovered easily. So, I welcome meeting a fellow traveler.

==========================================
by krautfrau on 2012/5/30 8:45:20

God did not create us to be sinners. Man has walked this earth as a non sinner. Jesus is not the only man who has walked sin free. Being entirely submissive to the will of God is the normal state of man. And this is what the restoration is about - to return him to his God given position of communion and even higher - to union.Even higher than Adam who was created without sin. We are not born with a sin nature but we aquire one through habitual sin and Christ died so that we can be restored by the destruction of that sin nature which has been aquired, the pollution that is passed on by example. Man is born innocent and the fall of Adam is re-enacted in each one of us.

==========================================

I don't agree with Augustine and don't know why so many are taken with his teachings on this.

How can babies be born with the spirit of disobedience? Just as man must "receive" the Lord (John 1:12), man also must receive (by an act of his will as Adam and Eve did), evil and disobedient spirits. Otherwise, his will is being violated. Now, it is true that Satan bruises the innocent, but it usually happens through something traumatic (abuse, fear, etc). Babies are not just born with an evil spirit operating in them.

You become a child of disobedience and wrath when you actually begin to derive your "life" from Satan by "eating" of him, by abiding in him. When you CHOOSE to turn towards Satan and draw your "life" (which is not life, it is counterfeit and called death) from him, you are then in disobedience and have become his child.

God has given us free choice and whoever you yield yourselves (choice) to, their image will be conformed in you.

Rom_6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

When you were saved, and received Jesus, and received Power to become God's son, did the spirit of disobedience continue to live and operate in you? Do you now have two natures? Man was born a receptive creature and as such, he was created to draw his life from a spiritual source. Man cannot be an independent self, totally divorcing himself from either God or Satan. He will derive his nature from either God or Satan. That is simply the way it is and how God set things up. God has not allowed us to be "independent selves". There is not a third nature. Yes, you have a personality, but that is not your nature. Your nature (character) you can only receive from either the Lord or Satan. Humanists and Atheist don't believe that. They believe in an independent self.

So, do you have two natures? If you say, "I have my own nature and it is a sinful nature", then you are just saying that you are abiding in Satan.

If you are walking with the Lord and during your walk you fall, you basically chose to turn away from the Lord and towards Satan (sin) and must repent (turn back towards the Lord), and continue to abide in Him. The Lord is your Deliverer and sometimes has to give you deliverance as we see happened many times to the Hebrew children as they chose to turn away from God, towards idols.

If you have received Jesus Christ, you are living by His life (Galatians 2:20) and abiding in Him (His nature) and He in turn is forming His character in you.

Pilgrim

I want to remind everyone of my motive with this topic.

I spent years in habitual sin a slave to it. All the time excusing it in my head as my old sin nature and a Romans 7
miss understanding "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I." as the normal Christian Life.

I do not want to Argue but Challenge your thinking.
We should not jump to offence just because our thinking is challenged. We should do as the bereans and search the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

This is a good reminder. If I had not let my previous idea (which was Augustine's) be challenged, I think I would definitely still be a slave to sin. His teaching was not a good teaching for me to imbibe in my early years.

I am encouraged to see that this thread has remained peaceful.

Pilgrim

Blayne wrote

"First I wish to address your reference to David's confession in Psalm 51:
As it happens, David was not an orthodox theologian, steeped in the doctrine of original sin. He was facing hard facts in his own life, and when at the same time he confessed his adultery, he saw the ties between himself and his ancestors. Amasa, the son of his (step?) sister Abigail, could have made the same confession.
It is remarkable that the genealogical registers fail to mention the name of David's mother. It is also remarkable that later none of the sons of Jesse, his older brothers, are made leaders of his army. His generals were the sons of his two sisters Abigail and Zeruja, daughters of their father Nahas (1Chron 2:16 & II Sam 17:25) Why did Jesse fail to include David in the number of his sons, when Samuel called to anoint one of them as the king of Israel ? (1Sam 16:10). It is unbelievable that the confession of one men has become the cornerstone of the doctrine of original sin, especially since no one knows the real reason for his confession."

Great Point, it is a Point that I was going to make about Davids (step) Sisters. I wish everyone would believe and study the scripture this close.

RE : Brothagary wrote
"evil and wicked have basicly the same meaning

and this scripture can be aplied in a wider contex to all humans "

"New International Version (©1984)
Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies."

Lets look at this verse in its context
Psalms 58 starting at verse three

3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

5 Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.

6 Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O Lord.

7 Let them melt away as waters which run continually: when he bendeth his bow to shoot his arrows, let them be as cut in pieces.

8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.

9 Before your pots can feel the thorns, he shall take them away as with a whirlwind, both living, and in his wrath.

10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

Do you really believe that these verses are speaking of all Human infants??

hi brethern ,,,proudpapa ,yes that wy i mentioned wider contex ,,if we look at pauls letters we see in one he mentiones the sangtifing effect of the imupted righeousness of the believer as a parent ,towards the child whare the other spouse is an unbeliever,,,,and says that with out this the children would be unclean ,,,,,,,the imputed righeousness of christ is the only thing that can cause the child to be clean due to the fact they are born unclean and unholy ,,tho not concence of this ,and for that reason i believe that god doesnt condem them in hell before an age of acountability

the question is was paull implying a false doctrine by saying only the believe parent sangtifies the child

and with out this process the implication is an unsantfied unclean child ,,,,,,even tho we see the scripture refuring to an imputed santficatuion or holyness ,,,,how can a child be unsangtified and holy at the same time ,,this is imposable

brethern do you no the scripture im refuring to

blessings

Hi brethern brothagary, I want to say that I apperciate that you addressed me as a fellow brethern lets be sure we nevr allow these differences of understanding come between that fact.

RE: brothagary wrote
"if we look at pauls letters we see in one he mentiones the sangtifing effect of the imupted righeousness of the believer as a parent ,towards the child whare the other spouse is an unbeliever,,,,and says that with out this the children would be unclean"

RE: brothagary also wrote
"the question is was paull implying a false doctrine by saying only the believe parent sangtifies the child "

RE: brothagary also wrote
"and with out this process the implication is an unsantfied unclean child ,,,,,,even tho we see the scripture refuring to an imputed santficatuion or holyness ,,,,how can a child be unsangtified and holy at the same time ,,this is imposable "

"brethern do you no the scripture im refuring to "

If I understand you correct you are reffering to 1 cor ch 7 v 14 "For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: (else were your children unclean; but now are they holy")

Calvin inturpeted this to mean that the children of believers are saved and the children of unbelievers are lost.

Now if that is what it is saying which it clearly is not.
than would we not also conclude that an unbeliever that is married to a beliver is saved?? As it says "unbelieving husband is sanctified (made Holy) by the wife" And of course no one believes that.

It is so simple, children from Godly Homes are more likely to be Godly than children from broken Homes of which one of the parents is an unbeliever.

Blessings

yea i agree brother we should never let these types of doctrinal difference creat a shism in the body

brother that why i mentioned that this holyness talked about by paul ,or santfication is only an imputed righeousness toward the child ,and toward the unbeliever ,,,,a transformation resulting from regenration ,that results in an impartation of holyness is still needed for the unbelieving spouse to be holy in conduct ,,,

what my point is that this sinless perfection that is imputed ,or accounted to the child by virtue of christs merits ,,this holyness which is gods stanared sinless perfection ,only seen in his son ,,varfies the fact that the child ,like the all unbelievers , do not have the virtue of this perfect sinlessness allready in them by there own virtues ,,hence the need for them to be sangtified by the faith of the believing parent to lay a foundation of holyness where by the house of regeneration can be built by the santifing power of gods new birth

with out this paul declared that the child would be unclean ,,,he never declared what you said in your last pargraph ,,even tho that is true,,,,,we should not over look tha fact his words are that the child would be unclean ,,, unless the sangtifieing effects of the faith are a reality in at least one of the childs parent

sorry brother ,,im not familular with what john calvin taught in all his comnetares ,,i dont think iv ever read one ,,,,but you are right i obviously dont agree with all of what he taught

but brother it interesting that your last paragraph has implacations,,that speak in agreement to the fact that with out the sangtafing effects of the faith of the parent ,,,the child are not likly to be godly ,,which realy expresses the depravity of humans as a more likly reality

blessings ,,,im off to do do some shoping

Brothagary I want to say how much I apperciate your kindness in this disscussion.

first Cor 7
12 But to the rest (speak I), (not the Lord): If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

How does Divorsing an unbeliever make the children unclean??

Quote: Adam was created (naked) and (innocent) without Law just as was you and I and Jesus.

The Wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who (hold) the truth in unrighteousness.

Men are guilty for holding the truth and rejecting it they are not guilty for being man.
The child does not hold truth he has no law.

NO LAW NO SIN!!

-----

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression.... Roms 5:14

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation Roms 5:18

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners Roms 5:19

Do you read the same bible as me ??????

no obviously i dont lol

Re: murrcolr wrote "Do you read the same bible as me ??????"

I am not sure, I use the King James Version!

Lets look at these verses you gave in there context.

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression.... Roms 5:14"
I never said that (physical) Death does not apply to all of Adams Creation that would be silly Babys in the Womb die 1 day olds with no Law Die

What did the verse before say??

13 "For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is (not) (imputed) (when there is no law)." (no law no sin!!)

but yet physical death reigns any how? All of Adams off spring are seperated from the tree of Life. I am not denying the fall, I am denying The inturpatation of Augustine!

Genisis ch 3 v 22 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever"

RE Murrcolr Wrote Romans 5 :18
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation Roms 5:18" Did your Bible end the verse Here?? My Bible continues "even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon (all) men unto justification of life."

Did the free gift come upon all men??
When do you recieve this free Gift?
When is that free gift imputed to man??

so did the offence come upon all men??
when does the offence come upon all men??
When is the offence imputed to men??

Roman 7 v 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. (For without the law sin was dead) no Law no sin!!

Romans 7 v 9 For (I)({Paul}) was (alive) (without) (the law once)({when Paul was an infant with no Law}): but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

How are you brothagary. what is your understanding of the Child being unclean by a divorse

I have for as long as I can remember felt the Draw of God on my life through terrible nightmares through out my most early child hood that left me clinging to God praying my self to sleep nightly at a very young age, to almost giving up the faith in my mid 20s, to which he would not let go of me and brought me to the relization of just how wicked I am and how much I need Grace.
But you know I was not raised by two bornagain Christians. I come from a broken home of to non bornagin non church goers. They both believe in God which did impact me for the better and no complaints about my parents they are way better than many proffessing Christians I know, but they are not born again and they did divorse when I was very young.

Blessings to brothagary

sorry proud pappa,,i was refuring to murcol last post

i must be reading another bible because i obviously dont see it like that at all,,

I am sorry I thought it was to my post but regardless Still what are your views conserning the 1 Cor ch 7 v 14. that we where talking about. How does Divorsing an unbeliever make the children unclean??

I have read portions of thread, hop-scotching around it. Some mentioned children...

As a mother who has birthed five children, four boys and one girl, I have observed something of their natures.

As a newborn infant, all they are interested in is being warm, fed and dry. However, it does not take long until they express their own will by stiffening their bodies in response to something that annoys them. For once our wills do not mesh. Not only does he/she respond by stiffening his body, there are plenty of sound effects that demonstrates his displeasure and it is not the plaintive or urgent cry of mere physical discomfort.

Oh, I did not have to teach them to respond in anger, frustration - they did it on their own. Where did this ability come from?

ginnyrose

EDIT:
PS: I did not see anonymous post before I wrote this..

it does not take long until they express their own will by stiffening their bodies in response to something that annoys them. For once our wills do not mesh. Not only does he/she respond by stiffening his body, there are plenty of sound effects that demonstrates his displeasure and it is not the plaintive or urgent cry of mere physical discomfort.

Children like that have good reason for their anger - abuse and neglect. Go to any traditional society and see how peaceful and content the children are.

The intent of my post was to demonstrate that very young children do not have to be taught to rebel. It is in their nature. True, they will cry if their needs are not met - this is the only way of communication with others.

If I want my child to sit still on my lap at church but he does not want to, but would rather crawl and play, will he like this restriction placed upon him? Mine didn't. (We had no nursery to park our little ones, either.) Here was a clash of wills and this child had to be taught you must submitt to mom or dad and be quiet!

Does this make sense?

Quote: Romans 7 v 9 For (I)({Paul}) was (alive) (without) (the law once)({when Paul was an infant with no Law}): but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Paul was not alive spiritually when he was born as Paul clearly states that we were all spiritually dead in our sin, Christ says that we must be born again why because our spirit is dead in sin when we are born; that is, we are born void of God. No person is ever born with God Our spirit is dead in sin when we are born and self is the Lord of your life...

Eph 2:1-3 Amplified And you [He made alive], when you were dead (slain) by [your] trespasses and sins.. In which at one time you walked [habitually]. You were following the course and fashion of this world [were under the sway of the tendency of this present age], following the prince of the power of the air. [You were obedient to and under the control of] the [demon] spirit that still constantly works in the sons of disobedience [the careless, the rebellious, and the unbelieving, who go against the purposes of God]. Among these we as well as you once lived and conducted ourselves in the passions of our flesh [our behavior governed by our corrupt and sensual nature], obeying the impulses of the flesh and the thoughts of the mind [our cravings dictated by our senses and our dark imaginings]. We were then by nature children of [God’s] wrath and heirs of [His] indignation, like the rest of mankind.

We are born with the tendency to follow the Prince of the Power of the Air, which constantly works in… I hope your taking note that is “works in” the sons of disobedience. We are born children of God wrath and are heirs of his indignation…..

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

1.For I was alive without the law once

The state to which he refers here must be that to which he himself writes about elsewhere, when he deemed himself to be righteous, depending on his own works, and esteeming himself to be blameless Acts 23:1; Acts 26:4-5.

2.When the commandment came

When it was applied to his heart and conscience this is the only intelligible sense of the expression when it was urged with power on his conscience, to control, restrain, and threaten him.

3. Sin revived

It lift up its monstrous head, and appeared in its ugly shape, exceeding sinful indeed; it grew strong and exerted itself; its strugglings and opposition, its rebellion and corruption were seen and felt, which show that it was not dead before, only seemed to be so.

4.and I died

He saw he was deserving of eternal death, and all his hopes of eternal life by his obedience to the law of works died at once; he now experimentally learnt that doctrine he so much insisted afterwards in his ministry, and to the last maintained, that there can be no justification of a sinner by the deeds of the law.

How are you.
RE:murrcolr wrote in reference to ROM 7:9 "Paul was not alive spiritually when he was born as Paul clearly states that we were all spiritually dead in our sin"

just as the Bible never uses the phrase (sinful nature) neither does it use the phrase (spiritually dead) so I would say it is not as clear as you might think. all men are born with a body soul and spirit but I relize what you mean by applying the word spirtualy dead to imply the seperation from the Spirit of God.

RE: murrcolr wrote "Christ says that we must be born again"

Agreed and he says else where in referrence to this Born again experience: Math 18 v 2
2 And Jesus called a (little child) unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, (Except ye be converted)({that is to say born again}), (and) (become as little children)({innocent,pure,clean heart, clear consience not under the Law, being led and moved by another}),, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me

RE: Murrcolr than wrote "why because our spirit is dead in sin when we are born; that is we are born void of God."

agreed We are Born seperated from God but that in its self does not make us guilty.

RE: Murrcolr wrote:"and self is the Lord of your life"

That is very true and something that needs to be understood by all. But that in its self does not creat guilt It is when We know to do good but we choose evil, as What all grown people have done that we are imputed with guilt. read Romans ch 2

You where right we do use different Bibles.
Eph.ch 2

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

We have to compare scripture with scripture
Look at same book Eph. ch 5
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
(infants are not guilty of this)
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
(infants are not guilty of this)
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
(infants are not guilty of this)

6 Let (no man)({not even Augustine)} (deceive you) with (vain words): for (because)({he is giving the reason for Gods Wrath}) of these things cometh the (wrath of God) upon the (children)(not refering to infants but grown people whom knowingly disobey}) of (disobedience.)

disobedience (lack of obedience) or (refusal) to comply; disregard or transgression.

Romans ch 1 v 18 For the (wrath) of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who (hold)({that means to have to hold it does not mean to suppress}) the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Read Romans ch 1-3 Paul gives very clear detail why men come under his wrath

RE: murrcolr wrote 1.{"For I was alive without the law once"
"The state to which he refers here must be that to which he himself writes about elsewhere, when he deemed himself to be righteous, depending on his own works, and esteeming himself to be blameless Acts 23:1; Acts 26:4-5."}

No, he is referring to Himself as an infant alive from guilt alive without condemnation.
Romans 7 is another disscussion another forum another day, It is not about the normal Christain Life as What Dual nature theolgy teaches it is a lost man under the law who is a slave to sin.

RE: murrcolor wrote ("2.When the commandment came
When it was applied to his heart and conscience this is the only intelligible sense of the expression when it was urged with power on his conscience, to control, restrain, and threaten him.")

agreed this is to a person of understanding as the intelligable sense becomes aware as in a state (or age) of accountability, not an infant

RE: murrcolr wrote ("3. Sin revived
It lift up its monstrous head, and appeared in its ugly shape, exceeding sinful indeed; it grew strong and exerted itself; its strugglings and opposition, its rebellion and corruption were seen and felt, which show that it was not dead before, only seemed to be so.")

No, It revived from his parents generation to his own He has now personaly followed Adam in having the Law and breaking it he is now dead to inocence he is personaly guilty and needs a savior.
Romans 18 is now his personal reality: "18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation"
Just as when He Believes in Christ the last half of 18 becomes his personal reality. "even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

RE murrcolr than wrote ("4.and I died
He saw he was deserving of eternal death, and all his hopes of eternal life by his obedience to the law of works died at once; he now experimentally learnt that doctrine he so much insisted afterwards in his ministry, and to the last maintained, that there can be no justification of a sinner by the deeds of the law.")

Agreed!

blessings

This is an interesting verse I forgot to mention as far as children
Matthew ch 18
10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven

Children have their own angels pleading with God in there case

Re: murrcolr wrote "We are born with the tendency to follow the Prince of the Power of the Air, which constantly works in… I hope your taking note that is “works in” the sons of disobedience. We are born children of God wrath and are heirs of his indignation….."

Do you even relize what your theology is saying??

You tell that mother of a two week old innocent pure infant that dies, That that Baby is a child of Gods Wrath and is an heir of his indignation. You tell them that that Baby is wicked and deserving of Hell.

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the (flesh)(sarx) is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Did Jesus Christ come in the flesh??

Do not think that if one believes in original sin that they therefore believe that God sends infants and children who die into Hell. I don't know of one person who believes in original sin who believes that. It is a canard thrown up in dualistic fashion to promote Pelagianism which has been deemed heresy since 431 A.D. by all of Christian orthodoxy.
Since I don't have time left today to discuss this in detail, please read the article in the following link:

http://www.gotquestions.org/age-of-accountability.html

"Do not think that if one believes in original sin that they therefore believe that God sends infants and children who die into Hell. I don't know of one person who believes in original sin who believes that."

Augustine taught that UNBaptized infants went to Hell, Latter Catholics toned this down by imagining a place called limbo
John Calvins personal experience probably helped create His Teaching that Those of the elects children that died went to heaven.

edit to add this ( I Relize that know one here probably believes that an infant that dies goes to hell but you do need to think closer to what you unknowingly are implying)

More than being against those who hold to some kind of agreement with Augustines Original Sin view, I am apposed to the dual nature theolgy that kept me in the bondage of sin for so many years and is so prevalently being taught in Christian orthodoxy today.

I have been impressed with the number of brothers who have posted, that though we disagree about the original sin doctrine we agree that once we are saved that we are dead and free from sin.

Hey proudpapa could you tell us how your coming to not believe in original sin help free you more so because all have sinned and need atonement as well as deliverance from sin through the cross of Christ. Thanks your brother in Christ...rbanks

QUOTE:
"It is torture to make a young child sit quiet during a church service and is a place of great abuse of children."

Brenda, submission is always torture to a rebellious person regardless of age. I have never heard of a person who did not have to learn submission. Those that refused to learn it get in all kinds of trouble. Teach a child young and he will have less problems later.

BTW, while in the womb the child could go nowhere in spite of his struggles! :-)

Quote: You tell that mother of a two week old innocent pure infant that dies, That that Baby is a child of Gods Wrath and is an heir of his indignation. You tell them that that Baby is wicked and deserving of Hell.

The first Adam sinned and in doing so involved all humanity in his defeat, dragging the human race down with him. As a result, in Adam we all stand condemned, spiritually bankrupt, enslaved to sin....

Quote: Did Jesus Christ come in the flesh??

Of course Christ came in the flesh, he came as the Second Adam, to undo what the first Adam had done...

I wrote : "You tell that mother of a two week old innocent pure infant that dies, That that Baby is a child of Gods Wrath and is an heir of his indignation. You tell them that that Baby is wicked and deserving of Hell."

I honestly believed that you would defend your theology and make a case that this is not what you believed. instead you replied.....

RE: murrcolr than wrote
"The first Adam sinned and in doing so involved all humanity in his defeat, dragging the human race down with him. As a result, in Adam we all stand condemned, spiritually bankrupt, enslaved to sin...."

I stand shocked!! Honestly utterly shocked!!

I asked Quote: Did Jesus Christ come in the flesh??

RE: murrcolr than replied "Of course Christ came in the flesh, he came as the Second Adam, to undo what the first Adam had done..."

If Christ came in the flesh which we agree he did I would

then ask was it fallen flesh as you say ours is???

hey rbanks I want to say how much I apperciate your kindness in this disscusion!

RE: rbanks asked "Hey proudpapa could you tell us how your coming to not believe in original sin help free you more so because all have sinned and need atonement as well as deliverance from sin through the cross of Christ. Thanks your brother in Christ...rbanks"

For years I struggled in secret hibitual sin as is with many undoubtly that will visit this forum, I was sincere and very much hated my sin but it had control of me, It almost created a daul person with in me ,it had a hold of me on one hand but also I was completely opposed to it on the other, In my mind not publickly of course I would excuse it as Romans 7 misunderstanding, I do that which I would not, and because well I just gave into my old sinful nature. After Hearing some sermons about sin no more by reconing your self dead, overcoming sin by faith rather than by effort along with bringing some feelings about being guilty of an unpardonable sin It broke me and I had no where to look But to the cross, I am not at all saying that I am sinless by no means but that Habbit is broke I am free from it and the more time goes the further the temptation gets.

And that is why I am so passionate about this subject.

John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Matthew 18:14

Even so it is not the will of your father which is in heaven,… This is the accommodation, or application of the parable of the lost sheep to the present purpose, and is the top of the climax or gradation here made use of. First, Christ observes, in order to deter any from despising and offending any of his disciples, even the meanest, that they have angels to be their guardians, who are continually in the presence of God; and next, that he himself in human nature came to be the author of salvation to these persons; and then rises up to the sovereign will of his Father, and their's, the source and security of their everlasting happiness; which will is, not

that one of these little ones, that believe in Christ,

should perish. It is his will of command that no stumbling block should be laid in their way to cause them to stumble and fall, to the grieving of their souls, the wounding of their consciences, and the perishing, or loss of their peace and comfort; and it is his unalterable will of purpose, or his unchangeable decree, that not one of them, even the meanest, shall perish eternally: in pursuance of which will, he has chosen them in his Son, he has put them into his hands, and secured them in his covenant; and having redeemed them by Christ, and called them by grace, he keeps them by his power, through faith unto salvation. Nor shall anyone of them finally and totally fall away and perish, through the power of their own corruptions, the temptations of Satan, the reproaches and persecutions of men, the frowns or flatteries of the world, or through the errors and heresies of false teachers, or any other way. It is to be observed, that when our Lord, in Mt 18:10, is speaking of the happiness of the angels, and the honour done to the little ones by having such guardians; then the more to aggrandize this matter, he represents those as in the presence of his "Father which is in heaven"; but here, when he would express the wonderful love and grace of God, in the resolutions of his heart, and purposes of his will, to save them, then it is "your Father which is in heaven"; and this, the rather to engage them to the belief of it, since they stood in such a near relation to him, as children to a father: and therefore must be infinitely more concerned for their welfare, than a proprietor of sheep can be, for one that is lost. The Arabic and Ethiopic versions indeed read, "my father", but without any authority; for the phraseology, "the will before your Father", as in the original text; see Gill on Mt 11:26

Is a child known by God that the Child will be in Christ Jesus and be saved, by the council of Gods own will and soveren Election as the desciples? Paul also saying he was chosen from his mothers womb.

Galatians 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

Psalms 22:9-10 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts. I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

Now the wicked; Psalms 58:3-4 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

Who is He that judges perfectly who will be His birthed sons, born again by the only Begotten Son in their spirit.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

He knows even before we are formed in the womb who are His and who are not. Luke 1:44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

God is in charge of even babies before, in and from the womb.

I remember my wrong doings from the age of two until now, I knew it was sin, I knew also there was a God, and received His Son as born again, when I was 25 I was baptized in water in the Baptist Church when I was 20, not saved until God was ready for me to believe that His Son is the only reason I am saved, then when I was 45, I came to know that I was crucified with Christ and The incorruptable Seed of the Father which is Jesus Christ was birthed again in me.

All I did was believe and receive. If not I still could not fault God for destroying me.

Romans 9:20-23 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

In Christ, by the good pleasure of God, His and my Father:
Don't ask me why, when or How he made His choice, for I can see no good thing in me. Don't ask me what perameters God used to birth the Spirit of His Son in me. I had no qualities that would make God choose me, But there is nothing greater in this World than knowing I am a son of God. What words can I say that even begin to thank God for His Mercy, Grace, Faith, Love, only the Words of His Son, and still I am lacking in praise. "My Father and I are One."

Phillip

submission is always torture to a rebellious person regardless of age. I have never heard of a person who did not have to learn submission. Those that refused to learn it get in all kinds of trouble. Teach a child young and he will have less problems later.
_____________________

Ginnyrose

I just wanted to say I completely understood what you were saying about teaching your children to sit still in church. Children are willful, you being a mom of so many yourself know this to be as true as I do :) I still remember the first time my young daughter pushed me away in an attempt to have her own way in a particular situation in anger she glared at me, shoved my hands from her, cried out and attempted to get what she was after and all this before she even turned one. She was always independent and sadly far to often as she grew older I saw how my sin and laziness played into her willfulness, her independence attitude and her rebellion. There is a very valuable lesson in learning submission I wish for myself and my own children sake I would have realized that.

God Bless
mj

RE: Old Joe wrote"Wow! After years you have conquered one sin, that's great, tell us when you have conquered them all."

It was not just one sin, It was from a Controling sin, It was from a lifestyle of sin , I am not saying I still do not have some Character flaws that God is revealing to me and teaching me to recon them dead. The defeat of these sins Is Gods power not my own streangth and it is by faith in his promises. Santification is by faith just as what justification is.

Apology to any That I have offended

Quote: I honestly believed that you would defend your theology and make a case that this is not what you believed. instead you replied.....

Quote: I stand shocked!! Honestly utterly shocked!!

Death is said to have come into the world as a result of sin.

So then you can assume with no sin then no death.

If that is so, how do we account for the death of infants? If all men are born innocent, with no innate corruption, God would be unjust to allow as yet unfallen babies to die.

So how do you explain to the Mother of the dead baby why it died?

Mary Jane wrote:

"I still remember the first time my young daughter pushed me away in an attempt to have her own way in a particular situation in anger she glared at me, shoved my hands from her, cried out and attempted to get what she was after and all this before she even turned one. She was always independent and sadly far to often as she grew older I saw how my sin and laziness played into her willfulness, her independence attitude and her rebellion. There is a very valuable lesson in learning submission I wish for myself and my own children sake I would have realized that."

So where did this rebellion come from? We know Mary Jane did not teach it to her child and neither did I when my children rebelled at my "No".

There is something in human nature that resents being told "no, you may not do that!" A person is not taught to resent being told no - it just is there. Ask any mom who works to raise her children...anyone who will dispute that must have his head buried in the sand, or has been educated beyond his intelligence. If this would be the case, I suspect this person hates to have anyone disagree with him/her. Why would this be so?

The Proverb writer also teach us that if one spares the rod he spoils the child. People do not like anything that is spoiled, be it food or people: both are obnoxious and can stink, literally or figuratively. Sometimes a parent will have to use force to teach a child to submit to authority. If you wait until he is four or five you have waited too long and will never succeed.

Hi murrcolr,
Do you hoestly believe what you are saying??
I have difficultly believing anyone that has held a preciouse innocent new Born believes that God hates it and that his Wrath is against it!
The subject that we are disscussing is no small issue. It is why infant Baptism (paedobaptism) had been taught by Augustine so that the original sin of Adam could be washed away,
I would encourage you to do a indepth study of How those who taught infant babtism treated those whom believed in Believers Baptism through out History. The Bloody Theater or Martyrs Mirror of the defenseless Christians Who Baptized Only on Confession of Faith,and Who suffered and Died for the Testimony of Jesus, their savior,from the Time of Christ to the year A.D. 1660. is a Wounderful place to start.
I would also encourage an indepth study of first John and I would encourage you to throw out your commentary it muffles the truth.(Jesus said by your traditions you have made the Word of God of none effect.)
I would encourage at the same time to do an indepth study of The Early Reformers and their Own Works and Notice How many times they Quote Augustine to make their point. Also while studying the Martyrs mirror notice the times also that the Jesuits Quote Augustine but the Anabaptist stick strickly to the Bible
Way the evidence that you find with the reality Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. For me personaly when I did this, Red Flags went off, No matter what great orators they where there are many distubing things that History has recorded.

RE: Murrcolr Wrote "Death is said to have come into the world as a result of sin.
So then you can assume with no sin then no death"

Brother Murrcolr You may be misunderstanding my view and I am sure that we are both misunderstanding each other to some point. I am not Denying the Fall or that it had An effect on all of Humanity and all of the Earth. (I am denying that sin is substance as the Gnostics taught rather than choice as What I find the Bible Clearly seems to teach)

Sin entered the World By Adam and its effect (Physical Death is past on to all) Why because their is a disconect from God and from the tree of Life (Gensis 3:22)
All Men will follow Adam into Sin, Why we ask? because they have a habitual disposition to sin. No it is because they are Born self willed seperated from the bishop of there soul and born in flesh with a fleshly mind that always wants to seek pleasure and fulfill its own lust, it (does not want to sin just to sin), it wants pleasure that makes it feel good, this in its self is not sin! You ask how is this in its self not sin. Because there was no Law that said not to! Hence (no Law no Sin). Adam and Eve where created with flesh and also created self willed they had the freedom to eat from what ever fruit they so willed except of knowledge of good and evil. They Did things that we would call Sin, yet it was not Sin cause they had no Law that said not to.(such as they where mid age and naked, Sin to us but not to them)(just as a 1 year old running around naked has no shame no guilt no sin) Now if you run around naked you are a dirty old man.you know better.

RE: murrcolr Wrote "So how do you explain to the Mother of the dead baby why it died?"

We are in a fallen World that God in his infinate Wisdom has to some account let natural course run its self and at the same time He has and does intervene where he sees fit. (He is in complete control)
I would tell the Mother That She need not worry God is in control And He is a righteous Loving God,(not just because He says so but because He is) Whom says in
Luke ch 18 v 6
But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for (of such) is the kingdom of God.
Mark ch 10
13 And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them.
14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: (for of such) is the kingdom of God.
15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
16 And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them
Mathew ch 19
13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: (for of such) is the kingdom of heaven

I would also remind her of What David said "I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me" in reference to the infant that died in His affair.

My main Point is that Sin is (choice) not (substance) even when I have studied Augustines confessions He argues against (Manichaeism whom he once was a member of) He says that Sin is Choice and not substance as What the Manichaeism gnostics taught, I guess at other times while argueing against the extremes of Pelagians He Argued other wise,

Augustine is also whom we get The concept of Just War from. from op
The new Foxes Book of Martyrs John Fox rewritten updated by Harold J chadwick p.56

referring to Papal persecutions and the Inquisition
/They justified the horrors they committed by wresing Old Testament Scriptures, and by appeal to (Augustine), who had interpreted luke 14:23 as endorsing the use of forse against heretics: "Then the master said to the servant, 'Go out into the highways and hedges,and compel them to come in,that my house may be filled."/

These realitys raise red flags in my head do they not yours??

1st John
What was Adam and Eves temptation before fall before so called corrupt nature?? 1 John ch 2 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world
How was Jesus Tempted?? 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life,
How are we tempted?? 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life,

What is sin? 1 John ch 3 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (No Law no Sin)

Here is the real kikker There is no way that I can see possable that you can make the statement that 1 John ch 4 Jesus Christ is come in the flesh
and Heb ch 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in (all points tempted like as we are), yet without sin

Show me how those verses make scence, If our very nature is corrupt, if our very substance is sin.

If we have more of a habitual disposition to sin than What Jesus Did how is Heb.ch 4 v 15 correct! all points tempted like as we are???

If it is our habitual disposition that causes us to sin What caused Adam and eve to want to sin??

Honestly though Brother murrcolr you wrote In your first post
"I am glad that when deliverance came to me, what I was delivered from was no longer apart of me it was cast out..."

Amen Brother, if we can agree on that the other is just a waste, I do not know it all and may be wrong and most surely am in some areas of my understanding but I hope this explains more Of why I personally have doubts to the traditional view of Original Sin.

murrcolr wrote:"We are born with the tendency to follow the Prince of the Power of the Air, which constantly works in… I hope your taking note that is “works in” the sons of disobedience. We are born children of God wrath and are heirs of his indignation….."

murrcolr wrote:”The first Adam sinned and in doing so involved all humanity in his defeat, dragging the human race down with him. As a result, in Adam we all stand condemned, spiritually bankrupt, enslaved to sin...."

proudpapa wrote I have difficultly believing anyone that has held a preciouse innocent new Born believes that God hates it and that his Wrath is against it!

Proudpapa It’s not me you have the difficulty believing; you can twist and wriggle and squirm all you want the truth is what you have difficultly believing is God’s word it says “by nature the children of wrath” Eph 2:3 black and white we are born that way…

Hello Murrcolr

You wrote
"Proudpapa It’s not me you have the difficulty believing; you can twist and wriggle and squirm all you want the truth is what you have difficultly believing is God’s word it says “by nature the children of wrath” Eph 2:3 black and white we are born that way…"

I'm curious; how would you harmonize Eph 2:3 with the following:

Deut 24:16
16“Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.
&

Ezekiel 18 the whole chapter, but more specially verses 20-23

20“The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

21“But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22“All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live. 23“Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

And finally in Ephesians 2:3

Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Is children in this verse talking about children in general or in a children like when God calls us His children even though we are adults?

God bless,

Russ

____________________________________________________________
QUOTE:
"Making a young child sit through a service is expecting more than their nervous system is ready for and even worse, if they have no toys or distractions but even then, they do not have the parents proper attention. No the place for a young child is OUT of the service. There are plenty of other occasions to teach obedience and it will not result in rebellion if it has been within the childs ability. It is unreasonable behaviour by the partent which causes the child to loose its desire to please the parent. And then the poor child gets the blame for being a sinner when it is merely responding to the sins of the parent by righteous indignation. A young child with a rebellious spirit must be handled firmly but at the same time the parent is at fault and should seek help to regain the trust of the child before it is too late."
____________________________________________________________

Brenda, I do not think you and me will ever agree...you have your method of raising children and I had mine, the which is normal for those in our brotherhood.

You assumed something I did not indicate: I never said a child cannot have a toy to play with in church. Or, be fed a snack, quietly. It can be done and is being done.

They did not learn disobedience from me or my husband: they were born to do so when their will conflicted with ours. A child is born with a will that needs training to submit to authority.

Scripture is clear in that one is to train up a child the way he should go. It also gives clear instructions that it may need reinforcement by the use of the "rod".

None of our children have ever run afoul of the law, other then acquiring a speeding ticket or two. They are all law abiding citizens, all gainfully employed. All married except for one and he now has a lady friend. Our five children have given us 11 grandchildren and these parents use the same methods in training as they were. Our oldest granddaughter is an 18 YO, pretty, talented lady, and her brother is coming right along behind. How we love them!

Brenda, obviously you and me will never agree on this issue...

ginnyrose

Thank you for sticking to your Guns and revealing the truth of your Doctrines! You guys hold to the (Catholic!!) Augustines Original sin to its purest form.

Murrcolr wrote
"Proudpapa It’s not me you have the difficulty believing; you can twist and wriggle and squirm all you want the truth is what you have difficultly believing is God’s word it says"

No, its the (Catholic!!)(exgnostic) Augustines interpatation I find no evidence for as I have said.

By natural course we all out side of Grace will naturally walk according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience

Read eph 5:5
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
(Know infant is guilty of this!!!)
6 Let no man(murrcolr) deceive you with (vain words): for because of these ((things!!)) cometh the (wrath of God) upon the children of disobedience

disobedience (You can not disobey if you do not have a law to Obey)(NO LAW NO SIN!!)

RE: murrcolr wrote "Proudpapa It’s not me you have the difficulty believing;(OH YES IT IS !!) you can twist and wriggle and squirm all you want the truth is what you have difficultly" believing is God’s word it says."

Murrcolr, Am I the one squirming the truth???

(MURRCOLR AND OLD JOE) ANSWER THIS!!!

1JOHN ch 4
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh(SARX) is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

IS SARX SIN!!!

IF Christ came in a different flesh(SARX!) than What we are born with, than you explain to me How HEBREWS 4:15 can be true????
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in (all points) (tempted) (like as we are), (yet without sin.)

Murrcolr and Old Joe

1 John ch 4 20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

1 John ch 3
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother
v 11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous

Study CHURCH HISTORY!!!

For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the (seed of Abraham.)

RE:"Sin is passed down from Adam in each successive father which is why Christ being born of a virgin was without original sin, but none of the rest of us are. "

EverestoSama,May I ask than How was Jesus than tempted in all points like us, If we are born with a habitual disposition to sin. and He was not??
could it be
Because (SARX) is not sin (choice is)

p1118 Niv Student Bible 1 John commentary Zondervan 1992

//Gnostics balked at the Christian concept of Gods becoming human.because they believed a physical body was intrinsically evil,they denied a pure God could take on a body. Some dealt with the problem by claiming that Jesus was never a human being,but a phantom,a temporary appearance of God who looked human....
The apostle John debated in person with gnostics of his day,and had Gnostic thinking in mind when he wrote this letter.....
throughout the letter especially in 4:2-3,the author lambastes those who deny that Jesus came in the flesh.//

Sound familiar to anyone?? they believed the physical body was intrinsically evil

p1118 Niv Student Bible 1 John commentary Zondervan 1992

//Live as you please
To Gnostics all matter was evil . Only the Spirit was pure,and Gnostics sought to rise to a higher more spirtual plane.This teaching produced side effect:people who strove to rise above matter didn't care about personal ethics.Their pure spirits could not be tainted by "earthly" sin Thus,they could act any way they wanted.//

Sound familar to anyone??? They believed in dual nature

Hi, EverestoSama But by saying that you still can not say that He was tempted in all points as what we are, If we have a inward disposition (sin nature) to sin and He did not.
And further more, It does not Say that Jesus took on a Prefallen Adam Flesh(SARX) But rather says Heb ch 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Abraham was post Fall.

Catholic Augustine taught that the sin nature was passed on thru conception and thus Leaving Jesus exempt.
Everyone believes this even though no verse clearly teaches this

Catholic Augustine also taught that sexual desire was a result of the (Fallen Sin Nature) and what was being implied When Adam and eve relized that they where naked.

I am not Catholic (nor reformed Catholic)and these verses do not imply that to me and further more infants do not relize that they are naked thus disproving his whole argument.

No, Sin Is Choice the Bible states several times (No Law No Sin.)(infants have no Law)

Further more the father of this Catholic Doctrine Augustine Taught
regenerational Baptism
Salvation is in the Catholic church

Augustine is also whom we get The concept of Just War from. from op
The new Foxes Book of Martyrs John Fox rewritten updated by Harold J chadwick p.56

referring to Papal persecutions and the Inquisition
/They justified the horrors they committed by wresing Old Testament Scriptures, and by appeal to (Augustine), who had interpreted luke 14:23 as endorsing the use of forse against heretics: "Then the master said to the servant, 'Go out into the highways and hedges,and compel them to come in,that my house may be filled."/

From my research as of now,(and I do not have all of the facts), I can not find any way to reconcile 1 John With those whom Early on held strong to this doctrine.
By their fruits you shall know them

Charles Finney, Spoke loud and clear against this doctrine, He said it was used as an excuse for Christians to sin.

He also said of such doctrines that in a court of Law it could not be proven that the Bible teaches such things , Many of You will say well He had a Devil,

Whom Else did Men Blinded by there traditions say had a Devil??

I am thru argueing nothing Has came from this thread but argument. Old Joe you mocked at my testomoney what small portion I gave, Thus discreaditing any attempt to be benifical to some one intrapped in sin, holding on to dual nature theolgy, That in its self reveals alot.
If You want your Catholic Doctrines your Traditions of men so have them. You have all of the Theolgy Books most of the Commentaries on your side, You have a dying sinning Church that stands right behind you.

I Shake the Dust from my feet

A body has God prepared for Him.

Quote:
"""IF Christ came in a different flesh(SARX!) than What we are born with, than you explain to me How HEBREWS 4:15 can be true????"""

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Marys seed is the human portion of Jesus Christ in the flesh, which has no sin in it. The egg of Mary was given life by the incorruptable Seed of the Father by the Holy Spirit come upon her. This is the God portion of Jesus Christ, with the Spirit of God His Father, and the nature of God His Father. No seed from Adam through Joseph.

Hebrews 10:4-9 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

The Flesh of Jesus had not the sin of Adam in it. for the Seed in Mary was God Seed. Perfect Body, Perfect Spirit, Perfect God nature, but all man in the Flesh also. Jesus took away the first and established the second, which was the Spotless Lamb of God, went to the Cross to pay the price that God could bring His elect children into His kingdom and to live in His House that Jesus is preparing for those the Father has given Him.

Hebrews 4:14-16 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Now we see that Heb 4:15 is perfect in truth, Jesus Christ all man and all God, in the body of flesh that was prepared for Him that He could say, "I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second."

We are born again into the Second, by the incorruptable Seed also, making us sons' of God.

1 Peter 1:22-25 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Born again by the living Word Jesus Christ Himself in us, inheriting the, "second He has established for us", taking away the Law and making Grace through faith our means of salvation by the Lamb slain, even from the foundation of the world.

Re 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

In Christ: Phillip

ginnyrose wrote:They did not learn disobedience from me or my husband: they were born to do so when their will conflicted with ours. A child is born with a will that needs training to submit to authority.

Scripture is clear in that one is to train up a child the way he should go. It also gives clear instructions that it may need reinforcement by the use of the "rod".

___________________

I agree completely with you on this.

God Bless
mj

Hi Old Joe,

You requoted vs 20 of Ezekiel 18 made your statement below

"“The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."

"Infants die, according to the above verse what is the cause?"

If this what you are saying is so; in vs 20

"The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity;"

The logic would be that God is going to hold us accountable for Adam's sin in the garden but not hold us accountable to our fathers sin as we read in verse 20?

Russ

Good point, rnieman.

I have been enjoying this treatise on SARX, the FLESH and SELF.

Christ At Work In You
www.christinyou.net/pdfs/ChristatWorkinYou.pdf

And a word study of Nature and Natural
http://www.christinyou.net/pages/nature.html

Pilgrim

After posting this I got to thinking more about children and their nature...

You get a group of say, 2 year olds or older, together. Put some toys in the middle of the floor and what happens? Most will pick up a toy to play with it. And enjoy it. Before too long, an aggressive one will along a grab the toy away from the child playing with it. He/she wants it! and no matter whether you were done with it or not! And a cry, a howl or a fight will ensue. Why?

A parent could have isolated their child from the others so no fight will happen. In doing so you are aware of its nature to selfishness and work to protect it from being exercised. However, in doing so, the child will not learn to share, he will not learn to wait until the other is done playing. He requires parental intervention and discipline.

Selfishness resides in the heart of a child. Where did it come from?

To all of you who do NOT believe in original sin, let me ask you a question:

Why was it necessary for Jesus to be born of a virgin? Or do you even think it was necessary?

Hi Old Joe,

How are you getting the Ezekiel and Deuteronomy passages to harmonize with the Romans 5?

I believe that just as it says in Romans 5 death entered in through sin. I also believe all will sin, but the question is, how do get get Romans 5 to harmonize with scriptures like Ezekiel 18 and Deuteronomy 24?

God Bless,

Russ

Exactly, Krautfrau!

Christianity has all but ignored that the spiritual source of sin is Satan, just as the spiritual source of life is Jesus Christ. It all comes down to WHO we are choosing to RECEIVE FROM and ABIDE IN. This is where sin or righteousness takes place. In our CHOICE to either abide in Christ or Satan. This is a difficult concept for Christianity since they have bought Augustine's duality of nature since the 4th century.

God is the only Independent Self or Being – exercising 
the Free­will to Self‐determine His course in accord with 
His own character, and Self‐implement the expression 
of that character in divine action. He does what He does, 
because He IS who He IS. 

Human beings have freedom of choice (not Free‐will), 
and the choice is primarily (at the deepest level) a 
choice from which spiritual source (God or Satan) we 
are going to derive character in the midst of our 
behavioral actions. 

We do not have the choice to act “out of ourselves” (ek 
autos), as only God can do. We only have the choice to 
derive and receive from a spiritual source – either ek 
Theos (out of God), or ek diabolos (out of the devil). 
There is no third alternative. There is only the either/or 
of God or Satan.

Yet, the prevailing philosophy of fallen man is 
humanism, which advocates that human beings can self‐
generate, self‐actuate, and self‐actualize. The reason 
why this premise of “derivative man” is so central to my 
understanding of man’s relationship with God is 
because any alternative other than “derivative man” is 
to accept the lie of Satan, “you can be like God.” That 
has been the humanistic lie from the beginning. The 
thesis of “derivative man” is the only explanation that 
rejects the humanistic thesis en toto. 

What happens in evangelical Christian religion is a 
modification of humanistic thought – Evangelical 
Humanism! They reject the devil’s lie that they can “be 
like God” in self‐generating goodness and 
righteousness. They agree with Gal. 2:21 that if man 
could generate his own righteousness, then Christ died 
needlessly. But, apart from Jesus, they allege that man 
generates his own evil, his own sinfulness, his own 
unrighteousness. In so doing, they reject the 
foundational premise of “derivative man” for all 
character function. They fall back on a premise of ek 
autos – that sin is “out of oneself,” blaming such on a 
straw‐man called “self” – an alleged “independent self.”  
And then they attempt to “beat up on this self” in 
masochistic performance efforts to “die to self” and 
suppress their alleged intrinsic sinfulness – trying 
thereby to be their own savior! 

Everything about man’s being and function is derivative:  
We have a derived spiritual nature (either Satan’s wrath‐nature or Christ’s divine nature). We have a derived 
spiritual identity (either sinners or saints). We have a derived spiritual character (either righteousness 
or sinfulness). We have a derived spiritual life or death. 
We have a derived spiritual image (visibly expressing 
20the nature and character of the spirit within us). We 
have a derived spiritual immortality, when we are 
deriving from the Immortal God who brought immortality to 
mankind through His Son (cf. I Timothy 6:16; II Timothy 1:19). 

GOD acts ek autos
“out of Himself”
to express His character

MAN receives by
deriving from spiritual source
– ek Theos (out of God)
– ek diabolos (out of the devil)

DERIVATIVE MAN

EVERYTHING about man’s being and function is derived.
Derived nature
“nature of wrath” -or- “divine nature”

Derived identity
“sinners” -or- “saints”

Derived character
“sinfulness” -or- “righteousness”

Derived image
visible expression of God or Satan

Derived ...
“life” -or- “death”

Derived immortality
“Immortal God” brought “life and
immortality to light through
the gospel”

(Some selections taken from Jim Fowler, http://www.christinyou.net/pdfs/FAQS.pdf, question #4).

This understanding has helped me tremendously to understand sin, the source of sin, the battle with sin and how to overcome. To me it is so simple, yet I understand that because of centuries of the prevailing teaching this is difficult to grasp. Not that it is difficult to understand but that it is difficult to get rid of old mindsets.

Satan is a master of disguise!!

Pilgrim

Brenda,

The child inherits its tendency to sin from their bio-father.

Jesus' was conceived of the Holy Ghost, hence he did not have the nature to sin as your children did and mine.

Brenda, are you saying that the reason your children have turned out the way they did is because you taught them to do so? I hate to bring this point into this discussion, but your point does not make sense in light of what you have written earlier in another thread about your family. As I recall there was spousal abuse, alcoholism, homosexuality...Am I right? or wrong - if wrong, please correct me.

ginnyrose

"Why was it necessary for Jesus to be born of a virgin? Or do you even think it was necessary?"

Krautfrau answered:
It was necessary for His parents to know that the conception was a divine intervention. He would have needed more protection than a normal child due to Satan.

My reply:

So you are saying that the protection of Jesus growing up as a child was dependent upon His parents and they really would not have protected Him all that well unless they knew He was Divine? So you think God is not capable of protecting His own Son and needs help from earthly parents and they wouldn't protect their son very well unless they knew He was Divine?

Mary was visited by an angel and expressed faith in what was told her. She did not need a sign. Likewise Joseph was visited in a dream and did not doubt. He also needed no sign.

Brenda, do you not understand the reason your children did what they did is because the seed of sin was in them from conception? Left alone they pursued a path of rebellion? Do you not understand that children do not have to see rebellion displayed in order to do likewise?

Do we not see many examples of this in Scripture? David says that in sin did his mother conceive him. This does not mean he was the product of illicit sex but that he was born to sinners and he was a sinner. Fortunately for him, he later recognized is need for God and was redeemed.

See where I am going with this?

ginnyrose

hi brenda your last pargarph is a contradiction

you said man doesn not suffer for the sins of others ,,,
before this you said
parrents cause there children to sin because the way they bring them up ,so the children are still suffering for others sins

one cant get away from the sinfull princaple thologigly

babys are born drug addicted which would be concidered disipatation ,babys are born addicted wine ,,,,,,

now you cant tell me you can be holy pure crake baby , craving coke and being violent and agatated and out of controle ,,,,sure they are not held responsable being born in such a depraved state ,,,but that is not holy ,,,in the contex of christs holyness ,,,,,

blesings

Quote: I also believe all will sin, but the question is, how do get get Romans 5 to harmonize with scriptures like Ezekiel 18 and Deuteronomy 24?

Deuteronomy 24:16 is a directive to civil magistrates of Israel which is not a contradiction for example of Exodus 20:5 in respects to what God himself would do.

Ezekiel 18 The passage says God will not hold the repentant and those who live holy lives responsible for their parent’s sins.

It does not say if they don't repent; God still will not punish them both for their own sins as well as their parents.

Quote: I also believe all will sin, but the question is, how do get get Romans 5 to harmonize with scriptures like Ezekiel 18 and Deuteronomy 24?

Deuteronomy 24:16 is a directive to civil magistrates of Israel which is not a contradiction for example of Exodus 20:5 in respects to what God himself would do.

Ezekiel 18 The passage says God will not hold the repentant and those who live holy lives responsible for their parent’s sins.

It does not say if they don't repent; God still will not punish them both for their own sins as well as their parents.

krautfrau do you believe that all children are born with light within.

G.K. Chesteron once said, "Certain new theologies dispute original sin, which is the only Christian doctrine that can be proved." I am sure his tongue was firmly planted in his cheek, but are folks really denying this doctrine?

If someone can show me that they were born in Eden, then I will gladly listen to their denial of the doctrine. If someone can demonstrate that they could not die coming into this world and were exempt from death until an "age of accountability", then I will gladly listen to them. Until then, it is really self-evident that we aren't born in Eden, that we are all subject to sin and death, and that unless one receives the sign and seal of the covenant, then they are out of covenant with God and have no ability to pass through the flaming sword.

quote: I believe that every man that comes into the world, or is young is lighted with the Light - yes - scripture tells us this.

Which scriptures?

I thought this might be of some interest!

Romans 5:12-13 (KJV)
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

5:12. The section of verses 12-21 is an analogy of contrast between the disobedience of Adam resulting in universal death and the obedience of Christ Jesus making eternal life possible for all human beings. The main point of the passage is to show that just as the death of all rests on Adam, so the righteousness of all rests on Jesus Christ. "Death" in verse 12 refers specifically to physical death, as seen in verses 6-8, 10, 14, and 17. Spiritual death includes eternal damnation in hell. Jesus did not die spiritually, nor do infants (see commentary on verse 13).

The phrase pantes hēmarton ("all have sinned") is in the aorist tense, showing that a completed act was committed. In some way all sinned. Adam's fall introduced the virus of sin into the entire human race; every human being is born with the sinful nature. There are three basic theological positions.

Calvinism says that "all have sinned" means that every human being, including infants, is individually guilty of Adam's sin and that all men are "totally depraved," meaning that the human will cannot choose anything but evil. It is unscriptural: (1) some die who are not guilty of Adam's sin (verse 14); (2) God commands each human to choose; (3) infants who die would be irrevocably damned in hell.

Pelagianism teaches that Adam's sin affects others only as a bad example, and that each person starts life as free from effects of sin as Adam was prior to the Fall. (1) If this were true, man can "save" himself, and Jesus did not need to die for all (verse 18); (2) Ephesians 2:3 says we "were by nature the children of wrath."

Arminianism says that when Adam sinned, the race sinned. No human baby has been born with the original righteousness Adam had prior to the Fall but is born with a nature bent toward sin that results in actual sin when he reaches the age of accountability; each can and must then volitionally choose between God and Satan.

5:13. "The law" referred to here is the Mosaic law, as verse 14 shows. There was law prior to Moses, else there could have been no sin (4:15). Cain was guilty of sin (Genesis 4:7-11). Abel was righteous by faith (Hebrews 11:4) which motivated his obedience.

We can say with certitude that "when there is no law" describes the condition of infants and children prior to the age of accountability. Jesus made clear that children are in the Kingdom (Matthew 18:3; 19:14). Paul said, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died" (7:9). This is true of every person who lives to the age of accountability. David knew he was born with a sinful nature (Psalm 51:5); he also knew that his infant son who died was with God (2 Samuel 12:23).

Complete Biblical Library Commentary - The Complete Biblical Library – Romans-Corinthians.

"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23

"Rom.5:12: "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

Brenda, I feel sorry for the impact others' sin had upon your children. This is always tragic...

Have you ever considered the children of the OT kings? You can have a good king who had an evil son. And then there would be an evil king who had a good son. So, how does one explain it based on the reasons you shared?

Does the entire Scriptures not demonstrate that ALL have sinned? That there was no one perfect born after Adam and Eve except for Jesus? Did Adam and Eve sin because God's parenting was faulty? Or, how about everyone else - does scripture teach us that people have to be taught to sin? Sin comes natural - it just is there. All I can read in the entire Bible is that people have to be taught, encourage to pursue holiness! Holiness does not come natural but is easier when one is filled with the Holy Spirit. Yet, in that there will be temptations one will have to deal with. And why is this so? Think about that. James talks about this issue...

Brenda, one can blame bad people's influence for the behavior of our prodigals and there would still be no resolution to this problem. The reality is that they chose this lifestyle and it is a whole lot more convenient to blame others then take full responsibility for it. Bad influences will resonate within a heart bent to rebellion, otherwise it would not impact ones life.

God bless.

EDITED for clarity.