The Charismatic movement; God's blessing and gifts without Repentance.

In the mid 1960's, a strange phenomena swept the World. Roman Catholics began to speak in tongues. Large extra-church meetings were charged with sweeping worship in other tongues. It seemed pervasive, and in America, it took hold from coast to coast.

The "Charismatic" revival was born. Charismatic simply means "Gifts of Grace", and speaking in other tongues is one of them. Out of this movement the great TV ministries were born; TBN,and CBN the foremost, publicizing in real time this exciting force.

Everyone was accepted, and this was the first time in church History that EXPERIENCE was the fulcrum of orthodox acceptance. EXPERIENCE TRUMPED HOLY DOCTRINE. If you spoke with other tongues, you were accepted into the brotherhood of Christ Jesus. The Pentecostal churches had backed themselves into a corner by proclaiming that Speaking in tongues was THE sign that you were of the one and only true gospel, and could not backtrack; Everyone was "IN" who did.

One Pentecostal leader, quipped; "What the Church held sacred for 1900 years, HOLY DOCTRINE, was annihilated in one generation, by the Charismatic Ecumenical Renewal!"; which is generally simply understood as The Charismatic Movement.

Ecumenical means that all religions lead to the same God; Allah is Jehovah is Buddha is Hindu is Mormon; Rick Warren's gospel. There are some in Roman Catholic bondage who did "Come out of Her!", and clung to the Word, as Luther and company....but many, many did not, and ideologically accepted never-the-less as as a valid arm of the holy Church of Christ.

I remember the outrage I felt as Pat Robertson of CBN went on and on Eulogizing Pope John Paul as A "great and awesome man of God!" I wanted to vomit. Today, I see the devil's foot prints following this attack, everywhere. The venerable Billy Graham covenant with the Vatican to stream in Catholic converts in his vast World-wide harvest BACK to Rome...and he did.

The same with Youth with a Mission, and Campus Crusade for Christ, and other large "mission based" movements. These are not churches, as the bible defines them. They are "movements", and the holy doctrines and mandates outlined in the Gospel of the Apostles is either taken or not, willy nilly, according to it's benefit for the organization, and strategies for their own perceived prosperity.

Also, from here, the "Prosperity Doctrine" took hold, and the teachings of Kenyon , a New age philosopher were embraced. Kenyon believed that man could and should control his own destiny, and learn to succeed by speaking his own dominion; pure Transcendental witchcraft, but adapted by so many....and THE WORD OF FAITH heresies were formed. These were highly touted on the TV Charades of TBN...and the false prophetic teachers arose, like Copeland; [a student of Kenneth Hagin ].

Hagin says:

Many Word of Faith teachers have sought to emphasize the full meaning of the believer's status as a child of God (through Christ) by using phrases such as "little gods" to describe them, a practice that has garnered some criticism from some other segments of the Christian community.

Kenneth Hagin wrote that God "made us in the same class of being that he is himself," and that the believer is "called Christ" because "that's who we are, we're Christ!"

According to Hagin, by being "born again", the believer becomes "as much an incarnation as Jesus of Nazareth". Hagin like Kenyon reasons that that humans are made in God’s image. Since God is spirit, then humans must essentially be spirit as well and ‘in God’s class’, and thereby ‘gods’.

Kenneth Copeland says Adam was "not a little like God ... not almost like God ...", and has told believers that "You don't have a God in you. You are one." ..".Wiki.."

This attack has cost possibly tens of millions their souls, and yet today does it reap. The prophetic movement, a gaggle of liars, the Apostles [ NAR ] and just plain old money grubbing liars have emerged to clean up, providing sensationalism and the Experience of the exciting experiences of THE GIFTS OF GRACE. [ yet they are still real....these are counterfeit.]

It is a gospel without a Cross, without transformation to the living image of Christ; Happiness and Prosperity fueled by pride and the best life now with a successful purpose.

God's way is different. It is welded to the Scriptures and which is obtained one and one way only. Repenting of our satanic way, dying to it by obedience to Him, and following the Lamb where-ever He leads us individually in Love.

This is Biblically mandated and enforced , if you will, by a unprofessional plural staff of shepherds within a local church setting; not a movement that may deny the Bible or choose it's own agenda...whichever is most advantageous for them.

Follow the Lamb who agrees with His Word. This is the safe anchor to our soul.....Tom

agree with you , BrotherTom, and it is still the same today in the pentecostal arena; its all show and no Word, all flash and no doctrine....

"hi,please stop the criticism of all the pentacostal churches. you have not been in 1% of them and know little or nothing about what is going on around the world.

"millions of africans, chinese,central and south americans,cubans arecoming to know Jesus because of the zeal of the Holy Spirit and His followers.as len ravenhill would say, go into the woods and don't come back until you are filled with the Spirit with all that comes with it."jimp________________________________________________

This Thread is posted on the "Revivals and church History Section, if you will notice. It refers to events that changed the face of Christianity that began about 60 years ago, that planted the seeds of much, much error and deception.

It is as though in the midst of a true Revival that also began around that time, the devil was at work too, as I have submitted and outlined in my base thread. "The Charismatic movement; God's blessing and gifts without Repentance" is the title of this thread.

I am a little dumbfounded on "how" you made the leap from this path, of my original idea, to... "stop the criticism of all the Pentecostal churches. you have not been in 1% of them and know little or nothing about what is going on around the world."...Unless..you did not read it, or you could not understand it.

I am a Spirit filled brother, and speak in tongues in my intercession life and worship life [ secretly I hope ] as continually as possible. I have not been in 1% of the churches around the Earth, not, 10,000th of 1% probably, but I have offered my meager and weak service preaching Christ Crucified where He has never been heard in power.

I have travelled to China, India,Israel to minister and am on my way to Africa; I have seen those saved who formerly did not believe, repent and believe, and filled with the Holy Spirit with the laying on of my hands. I have seen the demon possessed delivered, and filled with the Holy Spirit and speak in sweet tongues of praise and dance with joy upon deliverance.

I guess I am Pentecostal,but I prefer "Christian", as I fellowship all, without prejudice, regardless of denomination or "movement." I love the church, and all who have been saved and as the thief on the Cross, believe upon His Name. They are mine, and I am theirs.

I am very happy that Christ is being glorified in your city and in your fellowship; it sounds wonderful.

I simply and pointing out that SOME have embraced a gospel that is NOT based upon Repentance and Faith towards God, but teach that knowing God is about our personal prosperity and happy well being, and that we can create this "blessed" destiny by our own abilities. This is a lie, and will carry you to Hell, not Heaven.

It is far beyond classic Pentecostalism; It has spread throughout the Earth into every stream of true Christianity, and has been a major part to set the foundation of "The Great Falling Away" in these last days. It is terrifying to me, and sobers me greatly when I see the subtlety of it; the Leaven of the Myst that speaks of God as if we could use Him to exalt ourselves. It is evil.

The man answered and said to them, well, here is an amazing thing that you do not know where He is from, and yet He opened my eyes. We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God- fearing and does His will, He hears him. Since the beginning of time it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a person born blind. If this man were not from God, He could do nothing. They answered him, you were born entirely in sins, and are you teaching us? So they put him out.

Jesus heard that they had put him out, and finding him, He said, Do you believe in the Son of Man? He answered, Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him? Jesus said to him, You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshiped Him. And Jesus said, For judgment I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind. Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, We are not blind too, are we? Jesus said to them, If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, We see, your sin remains.

All the miracles of Jesus had two purposes according to this Scripture above. They are both revelations:

The first was to reveal judgment of God to men. The blind man had done nothing wrong. Yet he was blind. In restoring his sight Jesus showed that God is a just God. Before this miracle the blind in sight were simply blind without hope or understanding. The Pharisees taught that illness and blindness, as well as misfortune were evidence of sin. They burdened their hearers with the belief that their sicknesses were proof of their sinfulness. This is what today’s “healers” teach! On the one hand they say “I have a ministry of healings” and when men don’t get healed they say “your sin has robbed you of faith to believe”. This is the Lord’s meaning of being a Pharisee. Burdening other men rather than judging rightly. Healing is an evidence of God’s judgement in Christ own body. This judgement is the only basis for healing others.

The second revelation given in this Scripture above has to do with the “revealing” that Jesus was divine. To the Pharisees this healing should have given them all the proof they needed that this Jesus was indeed the Christ of God. Only Jesus Himself and those He empowered could heal men of their affliction ahead of the cross. After the cross, healing is on the same basis, but it is realised after true repentance. If miracles replace true repentance then you have what we see today. Only the Son of God could forgive sins and heal men of their weaknesses and afflictions. The Pharisees DID understand this because when Jesus forgave men their sins and healed them, they accused Him of blasphemy. Being like God.

The word which Jesus spoke in contrast was to Peter “the word of Life” became to the Pharisees a hidden thing. Jesus began speaking in parables in order to hide this Word from the Pharisees, because in knowing who Christ was, yet they accused Him of labouring in the power and authority of Satan. It is only after this blasphemy of the Holy Spirit that the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven are given. These keys are the preaching of the gospel unto life, and baptism, which is burial unto resurrection and the walking in newness of life.

What constitutes a Pharisee today may be more subtle than we imagine. It may not simply be a walking about in public places to be seen. It may be a burdening other men with the grievous knowledge of sin; yet without lifting a finger to bear the burden. Or it may be a failure to come to true repentance so that we are able to bear one another's sins, in love. The mercy of God for this man was not only that he was once blind, and could see. It was that having been blind of sight he was able to see Jesus and hearing the words “, Do you believe in the Son of Man? He answered, Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him? Jesus said to him, You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.” Thereby he worshiped the Son of Man: even Christ.

In contrast the Pharisees asked “are we blind also” to which Jesus answered “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, We see, your sin remains”.

Andrew

I also wonder if this isn’t borderline blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.... for someone who claims to be filled with the Holy Spirit to take sides and be judge and jury of other brothers and sisters (baptism in the Spirit) that they don’t have the same Holy Spirit that you have JUST because they are a Catholic.

Witch doctors in Africa, and all sorts of cults and false religions in Asia practice speaking in tongues. So do some Mormons. It's not unique to Christianity, except for the fact that we have the only real one when it's genuine.

Tongues prove nothing. I know of Catholics who pray in tongues to Mary. Or they babble. Be it psychological or demonic, I'm not sure, but since they don't even have the real faith in the real Jesus, one can hardly say they have the real Holy Spirit. That's MUCH closer to blasphemy any day of the week.

And even if they're speaking in an intelligible language, it doesn't mean that it's from the Holy Spirit and not demonically inspired. I know a guy who was in a service once where someone stood up in the midst of the service and gave a word in tongues, and there was a traveling missionary from China who then stood up and told the congregation that the language was in a Chinese dialect that he was familiar with, and the man had just been cursing and blaspheming Jesus in Chinese.

No, tongues is most certainly not the barometer to see if one is genuinely filled with the Holy Spirit.

Judging based on someone not fitting into a religious tradition mold that matches our own is dangerous, yes. Judging with a righteous judgement according to how the Bible outlines faith, spiritual giftings, and even repentance is BASIC BIBLICAL DISCERNMENT. It does not bother me in the slightest to say that Catholics that "speak in tongues" are either deceived, demonically influenced, just speaking nonsense, or any combination of the above. They're most certainly not filled with the Holy Spirit, because if they were, they would have gotten out of Rome.

Oh, and by the way, keep telling it like it is BrotherTom. Even though you're getting backlash, your post was not in error, and I'm very glad you have the discernment and care to keep putting up articles of this style. God bless you for your stand in putting the TRUE GOSPEL at the center, like always.

I'm not saying that you cannot be a born again Christian and be a Catholic. However, I am stating that you cannot be a born again Christian and REMAIN a Catholic. God requires them to come out. Not to remain in mass, and participating in blasphemous sacraments, and bowing down to idols, etc.

Can God pour out His Spirit into someone in the Roman Catholic church? Most certainly! And shortly after they're going to leave. What they're not going to do is force the Holy Spirit to bend to the will and tradition of a blasphemous false religion.

Consider these:

A Christian, Spirit filled Buddhist.
A Christian, Spirit filled Muslim.
A Christian, Spirit filled Hindu.
A Christian, Spirit filled Satanist.
A Christian, Spirit filled Voodoo practitioner.
A Christian, Spirit filled Mormon.
A Christian, Spirit filled Catholic.

We wouldn't buy the validity of the first five (and hopefully not the sixth, though times are changing), but the seventh we feel a little more comfortable with, even though their religious establishment is just as lost and deceived as any one of the prior six.

Would the Holy Spirit have anything to do with one who decided to follow a mixture of any one of the first six?

What makes a mixture of the seventh all of a sudden so acceptable?

Is it because they use some of the same words and jargon as we "born agains" do? So do the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. Should we turn a blind eye and let them into the club too? I mean after all, they've technically probably got more doctrine in line with us than the Catholics.

And I agree, God loves the Catholics and desires that they come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. However that doesn't mean that if we want to reach them that we sacrifice truth for the sake of love. The two are not somehow mutually exclusive. It's the fact that we love them that we even tell them the truth. Kind of like if you were a doctor and you didn't want to tell your patient they had bone cancer because they might be turned off from wanting anything to do with you, and in turn getting a reputation as a doctor that "only gives out bad news" no matter if it's just the plain truth. There's a cure, but first one has to be told that they're sick.

P.S. No harsh tone or anything remotely offensive (or defensive)is meant. I'm just speaking rhetorically. Text can be rather difficult to communicate that in.

Lisa I think Tom needs a break from policing everybody and everything. He could be such a blessing in the Lord to so many if only his criticism of everybody else didn't rule over him so much. Rbanks.

Is Tom a policeman? Does he really think he is policeman? A policeman is sworn to uphold the LAW. Cuts across the paradigm just a little. Tom is not seeking to uphold the LAW he is speaking about a reality of history. Not an idea. He is speaking about deception and its consequences.

Who would have suspected that a narrative about someone being challenged for a receipt at a Walmart exit would contain such spiritual value! Blayne.

Mirth is for children not older men and certainly not for God’s elect. Laughter is easy it in the flesh. Its natural and comes upon us suddenly. Truth is more difficult to grasp. No spiritual value blayne just mirth. You said so!

We've always had spiritual street sweepers among us; those who piously self-appoint themselves as guardians of the spiritual journey. But your comments here reveal something far more treacherous. Not satisfied with being merely a spiritual street sweeper, you now have appointed yourself as a spiritual executioner. Blayne.

Hi Tom you said and then ripped him to pieces. You called him treacherous, self appointed (which is to say FALSE) and a murderer. If that is a measure of true faithfulness and brotherly love blayne then there really is nothing to say.

the priest in charge said i know there is no way to the Father but through Jesus but that is a rosary if you have forgot.the preaching was biblical and the worship was wonderful with a strong visitation from the Lord. very little talk about the church.in fact the religious church people hated it.many were saved and filled with the Holy Spirit. Jimp

This same “spiritually” minded priest also believes in Mary the Mother of God. Not Mary, “blessed art thou amongst women”. And a man the “Holy Father” and not the Holy Father which Jesus prayed to and taught the disciples to pray too. He also believed in a “bloodless sacrifice” for the remission of sin. And not the shed blood of Christ. Neither did he understand that “without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin”. Or else he was not a priest of Rome. Rome would not have been in this move if Rome had not agreed the terms in advance. It is a matter of record written in the blood of millions. Dr Graham is a doctor of Rome. It’s a fact. Those who were saved at his preaching were filtered and those who were RC in origin of their progeny were given back to Rome.

Regardless of our opinions or the facts of history, which are in any case entirely worthless, Truth is firstly comprehended from Scriptures and not from history. On the other hand lies and deception are discerned both in time and, space and are born witness too by the Holy Spirit throughout history. There is nothing new under the sun. All is vanity. Now am I become a policeman, a murderer, false and treacherous? By the same measure it must be so! Perhaps the Lord will grant me a sense of humour to cover it all up.

Andrew

"Can God pour out His Spirit into someone in the Roman Catholic church? Most certainly! And shortly after they're going to leave.

What they're not going to do is force the Holy Spirit to bend to the will and tradition of a blasphemous false religion."....EverestoSama also wrote:

"Consider these:"

A Christian, Spirit filled Buddhist.
A Christian, Spirit filled Muslim.
A Christian, Spirit filled Hindu.
A Christian, Spirit filled Satanist.
A Christian, Spirit filled Voodoo practitioner.
A Christian, Spirit filled Mormon.
A Christian, Spirit filled Catholic.

"We wouldn't buy the validity of the first five (and hopefully not the sixth, though times are changing), but the seventh we feel a little more comfortable with, even though their religious establishment is just as lost and deceived as any one of the prior six?"

"Would the Holy Spirit have anything to do with one who decided to follow a mixture of any one of the first six?"

"What makes a mixture of the seventh all of a sudden so acceptable?"

"Is it because they use some of the same words and jargon as we "born agains" do? So do the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. Should we turn a blind eye and let them into the club too? I mean after all, they've technically probably got more doctrine in line with us than the Catholics"

"And I agree, God loves the Catholics and desires that they come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. However that doesn't mean that if we want to reach them that we sacrifice truth for the sake of love."

"The two are not somehow mutually exclusive. It's the fact that we love them that we even tell them the truth!"!

"Kind of like if you were a doctor and you didn't want to tell your patient they had bone cancer because they might be turned off from wanting anything to do with you, and in turn getting a reputation as a doctor that "only gives out bad news" no matter if it's just the plain truth. There's a cure, but first one has to be told that they're sick." EverestoSama____________________________________________

I had to bump this; it was to good to be spammed;

Brilliant, even. I am reminded of the scripture, and the admonition of the apostles..[ Who founded, structured, and communicated our faith, by the way,and their passion to warn and protect the body of Christ, so that they WOULD NOT be deceived and fall away to Hell.

Below is the Last Will and Testimony of the great apostle Paul to his beloved Ephesian Church; as to the elders.

Paul Speaking..."For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God."

"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

" For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

!! Therefore watch!, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears!!

And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified."

Paul___________________________________________________

Thank you Pilgrim777 and ArmKelly; not because you encourage me so much only; but because I bare witness so much for your love of the truth. We see that God Himself sends delusion, not the devil, to those who refuse to repent of the lie and cling to the truth, even though they be slain for it.

"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie!

"That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

If you really loved a people, you would not want them in an eternity of torment would you? You would warn them, and persuade them, according to the scripture, wouldn't you?.... that they must repent to the truth and Believe, Embrace it. If in this sense, I am a policeman, then in this I will glory, for I must and do love the lost, in any venue.

If I'm a cop, let me be an ambassador type one like Paul preached above....Day and Night....with a broken heart of tears to feed and protect the lambs.

[ This has turned out to be a really interesting thread; quite profitable in instruction I think. Thank-you all for your insights and opinions.]

Thanks BrotherTom. Your kind words humble me. All credit to God if He was able to use anything I wrote.

In your original post you either criticize or condemn 16 distinct people or ministries by my count. Again, at least by my count there were 16 distinct people and ministries you criticized and/or condemned.

You state these accusations and condemnations as if they were actually facts.

In view of that reality I do have a question for you.

Where are your references and documentations of these things? Solomon101.

Brethren for clarification and understanding I list the people, organisations, companies, cities and movements which Tom referenced to or else spoke about in his original post. In the order they were written, these are:

(The true names of God are listed for accuracy nothing more)

Roman Catholics, America, TBN, CBN, Pentecostal Churches, Charismatic Ecumenical Renewal, The Charismatic Movement , God, Allah, Jehovah, Buddha, Hindu, Mormon, Rick Warren, The Holy Church of Christ, Pat Robertson, Pope John Paul II, Billy Graham, Vatican City, Rome, Youth with a Mission, Campus Crusade for Christ, The Gospel of the Apostles, Kenyon, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, Word of Faith, Jesus of Nazareth, Adam, Apostles (NAR), Christ, The Lamb, Shepherds in the local church, The Bible. Altogether there 36 different appellants’ identified.

Clearly some of these appellant names are Holy and Righteous and some are Blasphemous and False. Some are the names of individual men; some are the names of false religions or else the principality of wickedness which reigns over these religions. Some are the names of cities or earthly dominions and some are the names of heads of those earthly dominions. Some are companies for profit; some are organisations under company law claiming to be not for profit. Some are for “movements” and some are for naming governments of Christ on the earth, one is for naming God’s authority both in heaven and earth; and finally one is a name given to God’s revelation of Christ to men.

Of all these names the greatest of them is The Lamb. In this Holy Name is summed up the fullness of God and his love for men through Christ. This Name speaks of the love of the Father, Christ’s birth, life, death, resurrection, burial, ascension into heaven, and a new song. “Holy is The Lamb”. His name speaks of a seating down at the right hand of the Father and our being seated down in Him. The Lamb speaks of a coming kingdom; even the Kingdom of the Lamb. It speaks of a New City, even New Jerusalem; where in those whose names are written in The Lamb’s Book of Life shall dwell in the Presence of God and The Lamb forever. (Selah)

Asking for documented evidence is most probably possible. But what good would it serve if we don’t even understand the simplest truth of all. It is not by proofs of reference which make known what a thing is or is not. It is by discernment and by the Scriptures. Every single name in this list has been examined and challenged in their day, by saints of God. The saints have even sought to look into the Names of God. Everything in this which is a name of a man, or a city, or a nation, or a company, or a movement is nothing. The only name which matters is God, and The Lamb. And the only reference which matters is The Bible. Everything else is a matter of discernment.

After availing initial comments to this Thread of Brothertom, I've chosen to largely ignore it since. blayne

I’m not surprised Brother.

Andrew

Edited for spelling and grammar.

" The only Name which Matters! "

"In your original post you either criticize or condemn 16 distinct people or ministries by my count. Again, at least by my count there were 16 distinct people and ministries you criticized and/or condemned.

You state these accusations and condemnations as if they were actually facts.

In view of that reality I [Solomon 101] ..do have a question for you.

Where are your references and documentations of these things?" ...............Solomon101.

Brethren for clarification and understanding I ...........[ armkelly ] list the people, organisations, companies, cities and movements which Tom referenced to or else spoke about in his original post. In the order they were written, these are:

(The true names of God are listed for accuracy nothing more..)

Roman Catholics, America, TBN, CBN, Pentecostal Churches, Charismatic Ecumenical Renewal, The Charismatic Movement , God, Allah, Jehovah, Buddha, Hindu, Mormon, Rick Warren, The Holy Church of Christ, Pat Robertson, Pope John Paul II, Billy Graham, Vatican City, Rome, Youth with a Mission, Campus Crusade for Christ, The Gospel of the Apostles, Kenyon, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, Word of Faith, Jesus of Nazareth, Adam, Apostles (NAR), Christ, The Lamb, Shepherds in the local church, The Bible. Altogether there 36 different appellants’ identified.

Clearly some of these appellant names are Holy and Righteous and some are Blasphemous and False. Some are the names of individual men; some are the names of false religions or else the principality of wickedness which reigns over these religions. Some are the names of cities or earthly dominions and some are the names of heads of those earthly dominions.

Some are companies for profit; some are organisations under company law claiming to be not for profit. Some are for “movements” and some are for naming governments of Christ on the earth, one is for naming God’s authority both in heaven and earth; and finally one is a name given to God’s revelation of Christ to men.

Of all these names the greatest of them is The Lamb. In this Holy Name is summed up the fullness of God and his love for men through Christ. This Name speaks of the love of the Father, Christ’s birth, life, death, resurrection, burial, ascension into heaven, and a new song. “Holy is The Lamb”.

His name speaks of a seating down at the right hand of the Father and our being seated down in Him. The Lamb speaks of a coming kingdom; even the Kingdom of the Lamb. It speaks of a New City, even New Jerusalem; where in those whose names are written in The Lamb’s Book of Life shall dwell in the Presence of God and The Lamb forever. (Selah)

Asking for documented evidence is most probably possible. But what good would it serve if we don’t even understand the simplest truth of all. It is not by proofs of reference which make known what a thing is or is not. It is by discernment and by the Scriptures.

Every single name in this list has been examined and challenged in their day, by saints of God. The saints have even sought to look into the Names of God.

Everything in this which is a name of a man, or a city, or a nation, or a company, or a movement is nothing. The only name which matters is God, and The Lamb. And the only reference which matters is The Bible. Everything else is a matter of discernment....armkelly..

Excellent ArmKelly. Nothing to add.

I could accept that except you specifically named others and attacked them. Evidently you don't seem to think that the Lamb is the only name since you make a point to specifically name others in accusation. Either that...or you are not willing to live by the words you post to others.

The lack of common decency citing accurate documentation in your accusatory attacks is disturbing. It is even worse considering the violation of basic ethics in doing so. However, when brought to your attention you say it really doesn't matter!?!?!?

I am looking for what would cause a person to take such a position. Three come to mind-

1. Is it a lack of knowledge of basic standards of common decency when writing such things?
2. Is it a lack of basic morality and ethics that are required in writing such things?
3. It is easy to attack others and speak things as if they were true when a person simply makes the bulk of it up. When a person refuses to provide the actual proof, evidence, documentation, or references it is often because their accusations are not true. If their documentation is researched by others the poster may be seen for being the actual false accuser.

Lack of knowledge... lack of ethics..... lack of actual truth....

None of those are good choices for someone claiming to be the standard bearer of truth bringing insight about those who lead others into darkness.

Solomom101 I do think that the lamb is the only Name worth naming. The meaning of that is clear. As for Dr Billy Graham the only other name I actually named myself; It was not a naming but an appellant title. Dr of Rome. Mr Graham on the other hand is a man's name. No mere semantic, just grammatical, phonological accuracy. Nor was it an attack on an elderly man's name. It was a stating the truth about what Mr Graham's title means, where it came from and who gave it to him. It was also stating the historical reason why. You talk about ethics. Which ethics? Whose ethics? There is not such thing as basic ethics when what one is saying is plainly understood to mean what it plainly means. Ethics are for serpents and for those who want to catch the serpents. You go figure it out brother. You say... Lack of knowledge! Lack of Ethics! Lack of Actual Truth. Nonsense. Truth is The Lord Himself. Scripture is the written Word and Knowledge is understanding. Ethics and so-called common decency are measures of men. They are intellectual paradigms for academics and the wise off this world.

My Post was intended to demonstrate that names are nothing in Christ. God is not a respecter of persons. Or didn't you realise that! If Dr Graham wants to sue me. I would welcome it as long as it is done before the church. And this only to prove your point you understand. What better proof could there be than the inevitable witness of the man. Hypocrisy? What is it? Do you know what it is? I do according to a Scriptural measure. Every other definition I am bound to reject. The worlds measure of hypocrisy is always against us who believe. If we worried about that we would compromise even the Name of God and Christ.

Andrew

hi dear brother andrew, when we as christians say judgemental things about other christians and are called out on saying what we said we should take responsibility for what we did and not take umbrage. the greek word krino and anakrino and diakrino are all translated into the english word for judge. the problem is that we are to anakrino and diakrino but never to krino. most criticism is krino...to sit in judgement over someone or to judge before its time or to condemn.the other word have to do with using wisdom to avoid etc.it is very important that we are led by love and wisdom. do a word study on this for yourself for it might pay dividends on judgement day.jimp

Thank you JimP for your concern about judgment day. I am trusting in the blood of Jesus. As for judgement and judging. I have an understanding of the meaning of these things in the new life (spirit) and the understanding is clear to me in my natural and reasonable mind as well. No doubt a grammatical study would help the ignorant man or the man who is unable to discern the distinctions you kindly drew to my attention.

The fact is brother had these things been spoken and not written no body would have failed to understand them at all. In writing them we need to be accurate, but to write grammatically as well as prophetically requires the mind of thought to attend to phonology (the sound of words). I don't anticipate that this will be understood easily. On the other hand every time we read a scriptural truth it "speaks" to us. Think about it brother its very insightful.

As to my attitude I am willing to acknowledge my flesh was a little ruffled and freely apologise for taking umbrage.

Andrew

i think brother god may just lay it upon the hearts he choosses more often then others ,due to the sovernty of his spirit ,, to warn the body ,,,

i feel much the same as brother tom about the false spirit ,,but i do feel led at this time not to say very much about it ,but to be slow to speak ,,, that may change accoring to the burden to speak ,,

as long as sombody is warning the beloved presious brethern ,,im content .

i feel he is doing it with tears and trembling and fear and love ......brothagary

Thank-you brothagary. I'm not sure if I am posting this thread as much in brokeness as much as I feel an anger toward the wolf, and want to see him stopped. I see them ravage the church, and have seen many, many devoured, and some fall away after believing these poison doctrines. This has hit very close to home for me; even inside of my closest family.

Is this done out of Love? I believe the deepest love a man or woman may have for another, is to want them to be with Jesus forever, and not be damned to Fire-lake. Jesus taught and said:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. [LOVE]
And here He speaks of True Pastors and the false. We see money is involved too.

" I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

"But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep."...

Those that love their position ,power, and salary love only themselves in reality. Here Paul exhorts, by the Holy Spirit:

"If any man teach otherwise, [ than sound doctrine:] and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that GAIN IS GODLINESS!: from such withdraw thyself!...Paul the apostle to Timothy.
AND HERE:

"For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ!;

Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things. [ such as Prosperity as an entitlement.]

For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.
......Paul the Apostle to the Phillipian Elders.

JESUS SAID:......And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.

25 And he said unto them, "The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called BENEFACTORS...

[ You know, the guy who runs everything, and gets paid the most, and doesn't have to labor with his hands...and speaks the most and teaches the most...That guy!]

"But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve."

Paul at Ephesus [ Miletus] delivering his last Will and Testament:..CONCERNING HOLY DOCTRINE AND THE WOLF!

"Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.

" For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

" Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

" For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

" Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

" Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears."

CONCERNING BEING A BENEFACTOR AND RECIEVING MONEY!;

" I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.

" Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.

" I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive."..PAUL

This was his example to all Pastors in the foundation of the Holy Church, which we are built upon. The Charismatic movement IN GENERAL defied this, and embraced prosperity and well being as the first order of the day, and a "Blessing" mentality rather than the biblical "Cross" mentality of denying yourself and dying to yourself as you follow Jesus.

It has, and does, hurt a lot of people, and this idea, is based on deception. Men are exalted, not Jesus..............................

The great Apostle Peter Exhorts:..NOT FOR FILTHY LUCRE![cash].

"The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

" Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for FILTHY LUCRE, but of a ready mind;

Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock."

The Charismatic Movement catapulted Experience [ speaking in tongues and the prophetic ] over holy doctrine, and what the church had held sacred for 1900 years, and defended successfully, was torn down in one generation through the CER; The Charismatic Ecumenical Renewal.

Now, ANYONE who spoke with other tongues was accepted into the holy fold holding the evidence in their tongue, rather than the evidence that scripture commands: HOLY FRUIT. "You shall know them BY THEIR FRUIT!"

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit!"...Jesus

Out of this came the bizzare heresies of Word of Faith teaching that we as mere men have the power of our own destiny and prosperity simply by confessing it, the "Prosperity Gospel" of Creflo Dollar and such, and the "prophets" like Kim Clement and company, who love money and power. For this reason I bumped the response below.........................jimp speaks.

"hi,please stop the criticism of all the pentacostal churches. you have not been in 1% of them and know little or nothing about what is going on around the world.

"millions of africans, chinese,central and south americans,cubans arecoming to know Jesus because of the zeal of the Holy Spirit and His followers.as len ravenhill would say, go into the woods and don't come back until you are filled with the Spirit with all that comes with it."jimp________________________________________________

This Thread is posted on the "Revivals and church History Section, if you will notice. It refers to events that changed the face of Christianity that began about 60 years ago, that planted the seeds of much, much error and deception.

It is as though in the midst of a true Revival that also began around that time, the devil was at work too, as I have submitted and outlined in my base thread. "The Charismatic movement; God's blessing and gifts without Repentance" is the title of this thread.

I am a little dumbfounded on "how" you made the leap from this path, of my original idea, to... "stop the criticism of all the Pentecostal churches. you have not been in 1% of them and know little or nothing about what is going on around the world."...Unless..you did not read it, or you could not understand it.

I am a Spirit filled brother, and speak in tongues in my intercession life and worship life [ secretly I hope ] as continually as possible. I have not been in 1% of the churches around the Earth, not, 10,000th of 1% probably, but I have offered my meager and weak service preaching Christ Crucified where He has never been heard in power.

I have travelled to China, India,Israel to minister and am on my way to Africa; I have seen those saved who formerly did not believe, repent and believe, and filled with the Holy Spirit with the laying on of my hands. I have seen the demon possessed delivered, and filled with the Holy Spirit and speak in sweet tongues of praise and dance with joy upon deliverance.

I guess I am Pentecostal,but I prefer "Christian", as I fellowship all, without prejudice, regardless of denomination or "movement." I love the church, and all who have been saved and as the thief on the Cross, believe upon His Name. They are mine, and I am theirs.

I am very happy that Christ is being glorified in your city and in your fellowship; it sounds wonderful.

I simply and pointing out that SOME have embraced a gospel that is NOT based upon Repentance and Faith towards God, but teach that knowing God is about our personal prosperity and happy well being, and that we can create this "blessed" destiny by our own abilities. This is a lie, and will carry you to Hell, not Heaven.

It is far beyond classic Pentecostalism; It has spread throughout the Earth into every stream of true Christianity, and has been a major part to set the foundation of "The Great Falling Away" in these last days. It is terrifying to me, and sobers me greatly when I see the subtlety of it; the Leaven of the Myst that speaks of God as if we could use Him to exalt ourselves. It is evil.

Thank-you AbideinHim for the exhaustive list of the modern history of those affected by the Holy gifts of grace. It is amazing isn't it. I believe in ALL of the gifts, and as Paul, "I speak in tongues more than you all!"and " I desire that you would prophesy!"...and I do.

There is a distinction however, between these God given gifts, and the leaven filled Charismatic Ecumenical Renewal. This phenomena promoted one gift, speaking in tongues, as THE SIGN of Holy Spirit indwelling, REGARDLESS of who are what you worship, how you live, or what you believe as the Gospel's holy doctrines.

It was entirely acceptable to worship the demoness Astarte as the queen of Heaven, and bow and pray to this unclean devil in the form of Mary, and to exalt her devil generals in direct idol form at her temples; the modem of the Roman Universal church.

Yes, many, or even most that we know of, have abused these gifts, and some have manifested falsely, with much confusion. This is understandable....but few have proclaimed , as the CER has, that all who speak in tongues, are welcome into the holy fold.

It is this idea, along with the "MOVEMENT" concept that has defiled so many, and has laid a golden carpet down for the wolves to dance in as holy apostles. [ many you have named above.] There is no accountability or discipline for any who walk here and thereby wolves like Hinn and Copeland feed on the rich pastures on high until they are gorged without reproof.

"For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted."..and..

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams!"

Without the supervision of plural elders in the local church, the gate is left wide open for each to decide what is right in his own eyes, and the deceivers party with glee unhindered. There is a true move of the Spirit, and there is a false, greedy and lying counterfeit.

There is a distinction however, between these God given gifts, and the leaven filled Charismatic Ecumenical Renewal. This phenomena promoted one gift, speaking in tongues, as THE SIGN of Holy Spirit indwelling, REGARDLESS of who are what you worship, how you live, or what you believe as the Gospel's holy doctrines. Brother Tom

Yes Tom. Not only this but even babes in christ were warning about this reality and were disregarded by those who were in authority who received the warning. If babes can discern and warn, think what mature men will say when God moves them to speak the last things!

I enclose an extract from a real letter written to a pastor in an AOG church in the mid 80's. It speaks for itself.

Excerpts from a letter to a Pastor of New Trinity, Assemblies of God, Leicester, July 1986:
Written by a young believer:

Dear Brian

Billy Smith asked the question “what was the evidence of a believer having received the Holy Spirit.” He answered the question himself by saying “it is the gift of tongues”. He said “that a believer could not know that they had received the baptism of the Holy Spirit except by speaking in tongues.” Yet it seems to me that Paul when asking the rhetorical question “all do not speak with tongues do they?” made it implicit that all do not speak in tongues, even as “all are not apostles are they? (1 Corinthians 12:29-30).

Concerning the baptism of the Holy Spirit, there are more gifts than speaking in tongues. There is the gift of interpretation of tongues as well the gift of prophecy. Does a person who prophecies not do so by the same Spirit? It is true that speaking in tongues is an evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. But it is not an evidence required by the church as though to test everyone who so seeks to be baptised. Rather it is evidence which results from the exercise of a true gift. If there is any testing to be done it is the testing of content and not the gift itself.

The reason why I object to this kind of reasoning is because the one hearing such words are in danger of entering into bondage because they are no longer free to receive from God as He wills, according to 1 Corinthians 12:11. Such bondage may also cause a believer to lie against the Holy Ghost, in that they simply utter noises out of fear of being rejected by men and God. For the one who is receiving ministry, if tongues are the only evidence of baptism in the Holy Spirit, then there is no freedom for that person. Likewise for the one who babbles in the desperate hope that it may be tongues, not only lies against the Holy Ghost, but in their consciences they carry about knowledge of doubt which can and does lead to fear and thereby even greater bondage.

I am personally in no doubt as to where this teaching comes from, because the fruit is evident thereof. It is a doctrine which divides the saints because they cannot agree together about it, and crushes saints because some are left burdened by doubt and fear, wondering why they are not so blessed. In the face of such brash assurances by men of God, who in other ways show great knowledge and wisdom, the poor in spirit remain poor.

No reply was received.

My contention about Speaking in tongues as THE SIGN of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that was trumpeted in the Charismatic ECUMENICAL Renewal, is the it [ erroneously] established experiential and subjective "gifting" above holy doctrine and Repentance to the Word of God as supreme.

As long as you spoke in tongues, or participated in singing in tongues, you qualified as a recipient of God Himself. Nothing more was required. In this, the Roman "church" swept in, and her religious, wicked mixture followed; Add to that, a parade of charlatans that seemed to rise to fame and prominence with meteoric velocity. It seemed that the gate was kicked open, and the enemy came at us like a flood.

There remained some who resisted, but the assault was on, and now, 50 years after the fact, we can more clearly see the fruit.
Out of the mouth of babes.....[ circa 1980 ]

Excerpt from letter from young believer to Pastor: posted by amrkelly

"The reason why I object to this kind of reasoning is because the one hearing such words are in danger of entering into bondage because they are no longer free to receive from God as He wills, according to 1 Corinthians 12:11. Such bondage may also cause a believer to lie against the Holy Ghost, in that they simply utter noises out of fear of being rejected by men and God.

For the one who is receiving ministry, if tongues are the only evidence of baptism in the Holy Spirit, then there is no freedom for that person. Likewise for the one who babbles in the desperate hope that it may be tongues, not only lies against the Holy Ghost, but in their consciences they carry about knowledge of doubt which can and does lead to fear and thereby even greater bondage.

I am personally in no doubt as to where this teaching comes from, because the fruit is evident thereof. It is a doctrine which divides the saints because they cannot agree together about it, and crushes saints because some are left burdened by doubt and fear, wondering why they are not so blessed. In the face of such brash assurances by men of God, who in other ways show great knowledge and wisdom, the poor in spirit remain poor."

"I am not sure which is more nauseating. Roman Catholic idolatry, or Pentecostal, Mennonite, ...religious PRIDE."
Rufnrust

Exactly Russ: There is no difference. This is the same spirit that Jesus defined in the Pharisee, who loved the preeminence. "You are children of your father the devil!" Jesus spoke. The only difference is that the Roman Catholic monster organized it more as she struggled to annihilate the seed of the Lord; the holy church, on a grand and obvious scale.

The Pharisee believed that Jesus' murder alone would take care of the problem.

"Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles!"

"If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation."

"Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death."..............

It is difficult to see it, but that spirit is murderous, even in Protestantism. It's father is the devil, and he was a murderer from the beginning.

I have to admit that what you have said is true, because many groups made it about tongues and the gifts, and this took priority over a Christ centered gospel.

We are children with brand new 'toys' to play with. We do this because we have no idea that these new found toys operate by the batteries of the Holy Ghost. We think or even taught that we do the operating thus we play and play and play until some of us actually wake up and see that we can't do anything with these gifts apart from the Spirit who Wills them to operate in our lives. In the meantime, it's just noise and clamour.

But every body that receives the gifts of the Spirit falls prey to this at some point in their lives, whether it's a fleeting moment or a few years of being foolish. God is fully aware of these things and thank God for His mercy or we'd all be shot down for blasphemy. We as human beings have never been equipped with heavenly powers, it's not something that we are subjected to in this material realm, so something that is outside of ourselves is going to affect us deeply, in other words, we will react in ways that are not becoming as believers, we need to grow up.

But there are believers that never grow up, especially in the United Pentecostal Churches, it's tongues all the way with that bunch. People go all their lives never growing any further than Acts 2:38. Now that is a shame. I was a UPCer so I've been around the block.

But than again, people use these peoples experiences to discount the gifts of the Spirit altogether saying to themselves, "If the gifts of the Spirit makes me like these people than I don't want them". Well, that is a poor argument because isn't it better to obey than to sacrifice?

Paul tells us to COVET EARNESTLY the best gifts. And the WAY to which one is to covet earnestly those best gifts is through Charity or love. Because through love our minds will be thinking about doing the will of God and how man can benefit through our obedience. Usually that is through the preaching of the word and the power that follows after to confirm what was spoken.

"So brother, there is much that you are saying in these posts that needed to be said, but you are only telling half of the story, and that is the negative side of how the devil got in and began to bring in the counterfeit. Many a revival has ended because of this."

"If we miss the intention and purpose of God in any move of God, then we will end up just as the Charismatic movement ended. God's purpose was to bring the Body into unity, not the denominations. These man made denominations will never come into unity. It is the unity of the Body of Christ with Jesus Christ as the Head, that is what God is after."....AbideinHim

Thank-you AbideinHim. You are right, there was a lot of good that came out of that time. I too was saved in that time, in the Jesus People Revival. I had a powerful Baptism of the Holy Spirit occur on a street corner, in 1972. I have known many friends who were former Catholics who were saved in the revival, as yourself.

But, there was a revival within a revival so to speak, and both seeds grew up together. One was a tare seed, one the holy grain.

What I am addressing here, is not those who came out of Mystery Babylon to cling to the Lord, but those who remained and were endorsed AS part of the holy body, because they manifested a particular gift; speaking with other tongues. The difference can be subtle.

This led to a breakdown in what holy Doctrine really was, ending up in heresy. Billy Graham, Campus crusade for Christ and Youth with a Mission ALL refer their Catholic converts back to the Roman Church and the Pope to disciple them. Do you condone this? Should this practice alone in the folds of Protestantism not be confronted?, and condemned?

There are many more paradigms to how this has broken down the gates of holiness in recent history, and defiled the church. What I am addressing is this very thing; THE CHARISMATIC ECUMENICAL RENEWAL; not the Revival of that day that also reintroduced the gifts of Charis; tongues and prophecy chiefly.[ healing as natural, the 5 fold idea also].

The chief issue is accepting that one may receive these gifts, and function in them, [ tongues being the chief ], and yet be received in holy fellowship, while tolerating satanic and Jezebel induced teaching and doctrine. [Tolerating the Catholic Omnipotent
Mary as Mediator is tolerating Jezebel]

"Many a revival has ended because of this."..AbideinHim

I disagree. I believe that there was never a Revival ended because of this attitude and warning. I submit to you Paul, in the midst of the great Revival he carried to Ephesus:

"For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.

"Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears!"

These warnings were very, very positive, and enhanced the flowing of the Holy Spirit, rather than quench Him. They were in no way negative, but the acceptance of the idea that wicked Heresy is allowed, rather than repented of IS!

I heard Pat Robertson Eulogize the Pope after his death in the most glowing terms as a great man; one of the greatest Christians ever.[ John-Paul ] I about had a stroke. This compromise, along with others have done much harm, and their intended result was to defile the church, and it does seem it has hindered Revival.

God will not walk side by side with Babylon, and here evil doctrines. Doctrines instill in man who we worship, and how we believe in our heart, and is the key to acting and praying in holy faith. In this, the walls were broken down, and largely to this one event, the Charismatic Ecumenical Renewal; a brilliant strategy of the devil himself.

But, there was a revival within a revival so to speak, and both seeds grew up together. One was a tare seed, one the holy grain.

So true.

hi, paul had problems at corinth and other areasif paul had problems with the fruit of his labor, we must realize there will be problems from a move of God where millions of people were added to church rolls all over the world.

The difference is that was the real Church, where the real Gospel was being preached. The video that brothergary posted did not contain either.

It really took all of my stomach to sit through that blasphemous mockery of the Holy Spirit presented in that Kennith Hagin video.

@brothagary

You're not wrong in what you're sensing. Don't worry about the naysayers who want to join hands with or not speak out against this rubbish. When we see examples of this in the Bible where men stand up for truth, they're always FAR outnumbered by men who would instead stand up for a lie.

Read 1 Kings 22 for encouragement. 400 "prophets of the LORD" vs one REAL prophet of the LORD.

And just like in 1 Kings 22:24, never mind when the "Zedekiah's" strike you on the cheek.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12

that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all POWER AND SIGNS AND FALSE WONDERS, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they DID NOT RECEIVE THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH so as to be saved. FOR THIS REASON GOD WILL SEND UPON THEM A DELUDING INFLUENCE so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

hi, i can tell by everest to sama and brothagarys posts ...they were not there.jimp

You're completely correct. Wasn't there. Fortunately for me, I've got the fruit to judge by though, which isn't fit for consumption.

I'll reiterate what Brothertom said,

But, there was a revival within a revival so to speak, and both seeds grew up together. One was a tare seed, one the holy grain.

We see the fruits of both today, as evidenced in the video posted by brothagary (which is what I assume we're talking about). Some in the Charismatic movement may have started out as good and right, but as a whole it has far departed from the truth.

not based un my emotions weeping with grief over watching vidoes do i judge this but by the word of other wellknown men of god like carter conlon and wilkinson and raven hill
but by desermnt in my spirit wiich is not effected by emoitions

Though there is nothing wrong with looking into council of other tried and true men of God when discernment issues come up, it should only be the secondary move. The Word of God is what you judge things by first, foremost, and solely. There's plenty in the Word to hang this stuff up by.

The words of Carter Conlin and Wilkerson only confirm what has already been written. They're not incorrect in what they say, but they're not to be the standard by which we judge. Just saying, it's important to know WHY they speak against it, not just that they're opposed to it. Scripture will back their position up.

that whay i said il stik with men like conlon and wilkison humble men of god ,that not mening im forgeting scripture if you know what i mean brother

I gotcha, man. And I wasn't assuming your basis wasn't based on the Bible, but just when presenting something I think it's wise to stand on what the Scripture says for your defense, and not the names of men.

The Scripture is rather strait forward on many issues, including the type of stuff being shown in that video you posted. It takes some serious mangling of Scripture to get any foundation for what's being presented as "of God". But that's always been Satan's game. When he tempted Jesus, all he did was misinterpret Scripture. He plays the same game today.

And in light of that, you made quite an excellent point here;

your right the devil doesnt produce good fruit ,but he produses fruit that looks good in many ways ,that is what deceptions is

he produses bad fruit that looks good ,a false faith a false gosple ,a false spirit ,a false repentence ,and a false humility as paul said

I'll quote what Brothertom said a third time to be clear on what I mean.

But, there was a revival within a revival so to speak, and both seeds grew up together. One was a tare seed, one the holy grain.

Though I haven't read every last post in this thread, I don't think it's being said that absolutely every last part of it is from the devil.

In it's infancy it may have very well been a legitimate move of God, but it was quickly compromised with ecumenism, experiential theology, and all sorts of un-Biblical things until it spiraled out of control to become what we know it as today (as seen in the video that brothagary posted).

But like Tom said, there was a holy seed as a part of it, which it sounds like you and your church, and David Wilkerson and guys like BrotherTom, and several people that I know are a part of.

The Charismatic movement as a whole though today? It's not bearing fruit fit for consumption.

We should not tolerate the woman Jezebel.

Remember, there were kings in the Bible who started out good, too. God's standard of success is those who persevere to the end. Not those that started well.

"Then the devil, taking Him up on a high mountain, showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

And the devil said to Him, “All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish."

I think the issue really is who is our God? and why do we serve Him? and , Is the Gospel a means of gain? The Charismatic Movement, in it's excess, without doubt , was the seedbed for the Prosperity Gospel, dovetailed into the "Word of Faith", name it and claim it heresy.

Does God bless? Certainly He does, but is His objective in the Christian life to bless? It is not. His objective in us all, is that we become conformed to His Image, that we mature into sons and daughters like Him.

The true gospel lived and preached always has this idea at the forefront, the base. Christ Crucified for salvation and The Crucifixion of our self lives to conform us to God, to gain Heaven.

" Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world."

The devil would minister a gospel all about our enhancement and right to be blessed with worldly power and riches. Just proclaim it as a god, and in your confession it shall come to pass.

It is then the golf-ball sized magic god that you hold in you pocket, and you just rub him like the genie in the bottle, to be happy, healthy and prosperous. This has always been the case, and this current manifestation in the Charismatic movement is just the current manifestation of the age old temptation to become a god. These gods get all the world has to offer, and live their lives to the fullest.

Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.

For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it."

There are many, many videos out there that mirror these same preachers and the same hideous manifestations when these clouds of devils are released, as the "blessing". I see it as the release of anti-Christ spirits that promote another gospel, all about "me", that in the end, if followed and not repented of, will lead you to eternal fire, not God.

" What I am addressing is this very thing; THE CHARISMATIC ECUMENICAL RENEWAL; not the Revival of that day that also reintroduced the gifts of Charis; tongues and prophecy chiefly.[ healing as natural, the 5 fold idea also].

The chief issue is accepting that one may receive these gifts, and function in them, [ tongues being the chief ], and yet be received in holy fellowship, while tolerating satanic and Jezebel induced teaching and doctrine."

This is the "why" that we have been defiled.

"I don't necessarily think God sees men as we see them (with labels). There are really only two categories. The Lost and the Found. The Saved and Unsaved.

We know whatever is not of God is sin. That is probably the most simple and understandable definition of sin.

God sees men either abiding in Him or abiding in the Wicked One.

Men are either bringing forth fruit unto life or bringing forth fruit unto death.

Some of the hardest people to reach with the Gospel are the ones who believe they have the truth. "

Matt 23:37 ..."O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

Matt 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Matt 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

Pilgrim 777.........................

Pointing out excess and error is not negative; it is redemptive, and should be welcomed in the balance of ministry. Jesus Himself did it incessantly. Why? Because we are in a WAR, and the dragon, whose desire it is to devour the church, does not sleep, and is exceedingly subtle. He does not desire to destroy the gospel as much as he desires the destruction of it's purity. Leaven, or mixture, will kill you.

....Paul cries out below:

"For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. [ subtle ones, with a part of the true Gospel and a bit of deception that would profit themselves.]

Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.........Paul at Miletus [ Ephesus]

We should too as we are confronted by error, for the sake of the body.

Discernment; and it's importance.

"Pointing out excess and error is not negative; it is redemptive, and should be welcomed in the balance of ministry. Jesus Himself did it incessantly. Why? Because we are in a WAR, and the dragon, whose desire it is to devour the church, does not sleep, and is exceedingly subtle.

He does not desire to destroy the gospel as much as he desires the destruction of it's purity. Leaven, or mixture, will kill you, and inevitably DESTROY the Church itself if not exposed by light and resisted with power.

Wham Bam a lah cooliah! Bam! "Emma, come along now, we got some gold to collect!" He says to his gal-pal angel as he leads her by the hand to preach on the offering..

You got it. He's ba'a'a'a'a'a'a'ck. The Toddster has entered the room! The charismatic prophet of prophets, trying to make a living the besat way he knows; lie about healing and resurrections from the dead, and super-spiritual stories he fantasized up to draw in the naive, in ENGLAND now. Oh boy. Here we go again.

"UK Official Seeks to Ban Appearance of Face-Kicking ‘Faith Healer’"..headline.

Officials in the United Kingdom are requesting that a purported faith healer who is known for engaging in violent acts on stage, such as kicking the sick in the face, be prohibited from appearing in the country this month.

British Labor MP Malcom Wicks reportedly contacted Home Secretary Theresa May to request that she help to stop Todd Bentley of Lakeland, Florida from coming to the UK.

Apparently, as part of his so-called evangelism, [he] has been known to physically assault those who come to him for help,” he wrote. “I urge you to do all in your power to ban this man."
http://christiannews.net/uk-official-seeks-to-ban-appearance-of-face-kicking-faith-healer/

He has run out of traction though, and now he is fighting God himself. May he fail again, and be exposed as to the lying serpent he really is.

GinnyRose. Your posts always impact me with a sense of reality; down to this real world ,"Tom, you are right. What I shared is what has happened in 'our world'." It happened in my world too, GR, and it came within an inch of taking my mortal soul; with it.

Ern Baxter, Derek Prince, Bob Mumford, Don Bashan, and Charles Simpson .....

It began when four well-known Charismatic teachers, Bob Mumford, Derek Prince, Charles Simpson, and Don Basham, responded to a moral failure in a charismatic ministry in South Florida. Witnessing this failure, the four men felt mutually vulnerable without greater accountability structures in their lives.

They also felt the charismatic movement was becoming individualistic and subjective. These realizations, led them to mutually submit their lives and ministries to one another. Ern Baxter* was later added to the core leadership of the group, and they became known as the "Fort Lauderdale Five."[

"A less known sixth associate was John Poole. Together these individuals formed the organization that would be 'the center of one of the most violent controversies (i.e., the Discipleship/Shepherding controversy) in Protestant charismatic history,' Christian Growth Ministries (CGM), headquartered in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida."[1][2]

Their relationships, and the doctrines which they began to emphasize in support and definition of these relationships, gained wide approval, as they addressed a strongly felt three-fold need of many in the burgeoning charismatic movement: greater accountability, stronger character development, and deeper relationships.[citation needed] Other Charismatic ministers and some Pentecostal began to submit to the authority of the Ft. Lauderdale Five.[citation needed] The vertical, descending, "chain-of-command" the five ministers were successful in establishing —

"was a pyramid-shaped, multi-tiered organizational structure, which had at the top echelon of the pyramid (it just so happened) none other than the Fab Five themselves, who claimed (conveniently) to be in "submission" to each other, which arrangement, they purported, acted as a fail-safe "checks and balance" system to totally preclude them from falling prey to the corruptive properties of absolute power to which, historically, so many others (albeit, less spiritual than they, of course) succumbed."[3]

GinnyRose. Your posts always impact me with a sense of reality; down to this real world ,"Tom, you are right. What I shared is what has happened in 'our world'." It happened in my world too, GR, and it came within an inch of taking my mortal soul; with it.

Ern Baxter, Derek Prince, Bob Mumford, Don Bashan, and Charles Simpson .....

It began when four well-known Charismatic teachers, Bob Mumford, Derek Prince, Charles Simpson, and Don Basham, responded to a moral failure in a charismatic ministry in South Florida. Witnessing this failure, the four men felt mutually vulnerable without greater accountability structures in their lives.

They also felt the charismatic movement was becoming individualistic and subjective. These realizations, led them to mutually submit their lives and ministries to one another. Ern Baxter* was later added to the core leadership of the group, and they became known as the "Fort Lauderdale Five."[* Baxter was famous for managing the prophet William Branham for many years, and was in the center of Pentecostal ministry for many years. I have heard in preach twice.]

"A less known sixth associate was John Poole. Together these individuals formed the organization that would be 'the center of one of the most violent controversies (i.e., the Discipleship/Shepherding controversy) in Protestant charismatic history,' Christian Growth Ministries (CGM), headquartered in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida."

Their relationships, and the doctrines which they began to emphasize in support and definition of these relationships, gained wide approval, as they addressed a strongly felt three-fold need of many in the burgeoning charismatic movement: greater accountability, stronger character development, and deeper relationships.

Other Charismatic ministers and some Pentecostal began to submit to the authority of the Ft. Lauderdale Five. The vertical, descending, "chain-of-command" the five ministers were successful in establishing .....

"was a pyramid-shaped, multi-tiered organizational structure, which had at the top echelon of the pyramid (it just so happened) none other than the Fab Five themselves, who claimed (conveniently) to be in "submission" to each other, which arrangement, they purported, acted as a fail-safe "checks and balance" system to totally preclude them from falling prey to the corruptive properties of absolute power to which, historically, so many others (albeit, less spiritual than they, of course) succumbed." wiki

The nightmare began, in which I too had a personal handle on. It very nearly cost me my soul, and it did many others. I was deeply involved in the shepherding movement, in the early to mid 70s and it was filled with pride, and submission to men as unto the Lord, but of course this was never stated.

In it you transferred your faith, tithe, and control of your life to a man, in a pyramidal system, that in effect, stole your faith away from yourself. I did so, though I did not know the immediate effects til much later. When I broke away from this system, and the church that had been high-jacked, taken over by them, It seemed that I never had faith, and there was literally NO CONVICTION of sin in my life.

I could do the most vile things, and it was just like the days of my sinful youth; no conviction and everything goes, and I was not the least bit worried about it. My crown had been stolen, and I did not know it.

My heart had been hardened by a sin of replacing Jesus as my head, and transferring it to a man.

more later....

@ginnyrose

Spot on!

Every Pastor and leader that took this upon themselves to rule, and quite cruelly at times, over God's people at that time that I knew, have fell away from the Lord; That is how serious it has become; they are hard hearted and worldly, and some deny Christ or else have embraced humanism; but they have left Jesus as Lord for sure.

I submit these scriptures to you for consideration:

"But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also HATE.

"So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I HATE."

God HATES this doctrine of kingship over the church, the Nicolaitan doctrine as of the shepherding movement, as he hates the deeds of those who adhere to it.

People who do so are often unaware of the seriousness of their sin, and nonchalantly skip away leaving a body trail behind them. But, little do they know that God has hounded them, and unless they repent, they will die.
This fulfills this scripture also:

"But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. ...DIE!

Yes, even arrogant "Pastors." I submit a vision about how God feels about his little ones forced to live in the dung field.

God's heart for His babies, and disgust toward their enemies....[ so called Pastors..].

I awoke in a vision. I was in a room, similar to a basement, or dungeon. It had a hard floor, and higher ceilings. It had a stench to it, overpowering and pungent; it was the overpowering odor of human waste, thick, like a cloud.

Upon looking down on the floor, I beheld piles of dung, spotted like an overused pasture with multiple "cowpods", the difference here being they seemed fresh, and were human. It was nauseating and disgusting. I then began to "highstep" over them, and walked toward a clean area that I saw.

I approached a curtain on a rod, similar to a shower curtain. It was pearly white, and pleasant to see in that hole. I pulled the curtain back.I saw before me a glorious sight. A bubbling brook was cascading downward, flowing over a white marble or porcelain looking backdrop, like a Heavenly waterfall.

Its fragrance, too, was overpowering, but with myrrh and incense, like lanolin. The water was a true Crystal, brighter and more glistening than that I have seen or drunk. Its gurgling was symphonic and soothing.

I looked downward, and then I saw them. There, under the water, in the pool at it's base, much like every waterfall has, were two infant children submerged underneath. They were close to me, perhaps three feet away, under six inches of water or so. They were so beautiful, and they glowed, emitting health and joy. They both had blue eyes, and they liked me.

They smiled and grinned, the way babies do when they learn of love. They looked deep into me, and I could sense their affection, and their intense purity. As i beheld this holy scene, they were gone. I awoke from the vision....I awoke with emotions of grief, and sadness.

Though the Lord did not speak to me, I was given His heart, and burden. It had to do with the state of the church, and the "ministry" of men....more...

http://brideinthewilderness.blogspot.com/2012/03/my-babies-in-dungeonjesus-weeps.html#comment-form