180 for the Christian

If you needed an organ transplant but the only organ available was a clone from a Nazi Consentration camps victim would you accept it?? Would you believe that Gods Blessing would be on it??

Lol, where did you come up with this one? Not just a Nazi camp victim but a CLONE of one. Wow. I will need ten years to think about it.

p.s. Are you saying the clone is dead or alive?

There is a real ick factor here. I would have to say no.

RE: Trekker wrote "p.s. Are you saying the clone is dead or alive"

The Clone is living. But it is just the clone of the organ, that makes it OK right??

no I would have to agree with you, I would have to say no.

But we may have already said YES

Edited: after praying more on this I felt convicted that I posted in self. For that I am sorry. There are some threads I know the LORD does not have for me to be apart of and in self I ventured into this one any way.

I am sorry for interrupting your discussion and ask that those sharing here would forgive me.

God bless
mj

papa,

I am seriously rethinking my position on organ transplantation.

I know that to accept another's organ is not sin. But I am wondering about its ethics. Some may say, "but this delves into the realm of sin, does it not?" Sometimes.

For starters, let me say that our oldest son had a cornea transplant when he was 19 YO - his cornea was destroyed by an amoeba - he had acathamoeba keratitis. His cornea burst, prompting a transplant or else he would have been blind in that eye for life. The graft was taken from victim killed in a car accident.

Today this son is still going well with the transplant but did learn its viability is not known - could need another one before too many years (he is now 43 years old).

Now I read how some medical experts are questioning the ethics of heart (and other organs?) transplants. They suggest the donor may be be really dead, you are running the risk of killing a person in order to harvest usable body parts.

Then there is the cost. Back when Lyn had his cornea transplant it cost around $8,000 - we were given a discount because it was paid off when due. Heart transplants can cost up to a million dollars. And who pays? Uncle Sam, aka as the government. What is the longevity of a new heart? Not long, ten years, sometimes more, sometimes less...But does the cost justify this procedure? This is what gives me pause, makes me ask hard questions. A million dollars to prolong you life for ten (?) years and then you will die, anyways? Why are you so scared of dying? You want to rob people of their hard earned money to postpone the inevitable? We all are going to do that sometime - this is a promise.

Where the graft comes from - well, I am wondering how the recipient can know its origin? It took us a while before we were told anything about the donor - this info is not readily shared. It used to be the doctors will not share this info with the recipient although I think my cousin knows the donor's family of the heart he received in a transplant.

These are the issues I grapple with...

My thoughts...

Re: amrkelly wrote (Why do you so lightly ask a question which of necessity requires one to think about genocide and at the same time press the answer into a mere semantic.)

Dear amrkelly, no offence is at all intended to any Jew or to you. When I reveal the parallel you will understand just how accurate this illustration is.

The idea Came to me after seeing Ray comforts 180 in which Ray required people to think about genocide which was done to millions of men and women in and throughout Europe during 1933-1949 by wicked men that are more terrible than could be spoken. about.

Whenever Nathan comfronted David He did not come argueing he came with an illustration that Made David think and it Did make Him think and it Made him Judge . Coming and telling him that he was wrong would just have pushed him further in His wickedness.

I come with a terrible and gruesome illustration But the reality of anology will show its self also very gruesome

Dear ginnyrose you said "But I am wondering about its ethics"

Keep watching this forum and I am sure that You will question the ethics of modern medicine

Re: Mary Jane wrote
"after praying more on this I felt convicted that I posted in self. For that I am sorry. There are some threads I know the LORD does not have for me to be apart of and in self I ventured into this one any way."

It is disscusting but if you knew where I was going with this I think you would probably more understand.

QUOTE:
Keep watching this forum and I am sure that You will question the ethics of modern medicine

My answer: I already am. Maybe not so much the medical profession but people's love affair with it: pursue it at all and any cost.

I will look forward to your perspective of it.

by proudpapa on 2012/6/2 4:25:08

Re: Mary Jane wrote
"after praying more on this I felt convicted that I posted in self. For that I am sorry. There are some threads I know the LORD does not have for me to be apart of and in self I ventured into this one any way."

It is disscusting but if you knew where I was going with this I think you would probably more understand.

_______________________
proudpapa

I do not mean to side track your thread but I wanted to come back and say in response to what you wrote that my edited my post was not meant as an admonishment toward you or your thread. After praying I just felt convicted for my response when I know that there are topics that FATHER has cautioned me not to take part in. I did not mean to offend in any way and again I do apologize for the interruption.

God bless
mj

RE: amrkelly
"I have no idea who Ray Comforts is and no idea why he wanted to speak about such things"

Brother Andrew I am sorry, I figured everyone here new who Ray Comfort was and about his documentry, sermon Index posted Forum about it recently.

Ray Comfort as revealed in the documentry is also Born again,and a Jew. Watch the video 180 by Ray Comfort just google 180 and it should be at the top. It Shows how History is repeating it's self.
I think you will better understand where I am coming from after watching it.

research WI-38 and tell me what you think??

research MRC-5 and tell me what you think??

i thing i do know about ray comfert,is he was invited to speak at time square church by david wilkinson ,,iv read a coment my him which was verry honering of wilkinson ,, evn tho he is not a carsamatic ,he cleary loved david wilkison ,and david saw the godliness in rays message ;,hells best kept secret,;

Hey brothagary I do not know alot about Ray comfort, I have read a few things and heard a few messages of His. Searching for sermons by Wilkerson was one of the things that first led me to SI.

Have you ran a search on WI-38 or MRC-5 what do you think about that??

wow how thats,,,,,,,

brother no i havent doen a surch i will soon

thank you

Does it not bother anyone that you are injecting yourselves and your children with vaccines that are made with cell cultures from aborted fetus tissue??

research WI-38 and MRC-5 and tell me what you think??

Does it not bother anyone that you are injecting yourselves and your children with vaccines that are made with cell cultures from aborted fetus tissue??

proudpapa, sure it bothers me. Christians should have nothing to do with vaccinations, even without such abominations like aborted fetus tissues, monkey kidneys and similar things as ingredients, they already have enough toxic materials to be directly injected into the bloodstream.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I732HU7o1PA

research WI-38 and MRC-5 and tell me what you think??

When I did my research several years ago, I came to similar conclusions as these:

http://web.archive.org/web/20080404005005/http://www.satanicvaccines.com/MessageToChristians.htm

http://web.archive.org/web/20080318014429/http://www.satanicvaccines.com/Ingredients.htm

http://web.archive.org/web/20080224071538/http://www.satanicvaccines.com/VaccineHistory.htm

http://web.archive.org/web/20080412082922/http://www.satanicvaccines.com/VaccineCreation.htm

A couple of years ago I listened to the book "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by Shirer during my commute to work-- I believe it was about 40 CDs. It gave me great insight into the man of evil and it also (unintentionally) demonstrated God's intervention in WWII.

Then about a month ago my wife and I watched an old TV miniseries "War and Remembrance" which very graphically showed the horror of concentration camps.

I agree with AMRkelly on this one. While it is very important to be informed about what happened, there are some things that need not be discussed just for the sake of academic discussion; I am not clear what good can come of it.

I do believe the question would be offensive to a desdendant of a concentration camp victim.

I understand that no offense was intended, however.

TMK ,Do you see the comparrison that I am making
Research WI-38 and MRC-5

Quote:

"Christians should have nothing to do with vaccinations"

So in your opinion, it is a sin to get your kids (or yourself) vaccinated, or just foolish, or both?

I for one am pretty grateful that the infant mortality rate is a tad better than it was 75 years sgo, when my grandmother and grandfather each lost several siblings to childhood diseases.

[edited for sp.]

If I was murdered because the murderer wanted my organs, I suppose i wouldn't want him to get them-- however if I truly loved my neighbor as myself I should not begrudge him my organs-- I am dead after all and I no longer need them.

If I was murdered during a robbery attempt, I wouldnt have a problem at all with others benefiting from my organs.

Who knows- an unbelieving organ donee's life might be extended which would give him greater opportunity to accept the Lord.

So in your opinion, it is a sin to get your kids (or yourself) vaccinated, or just foolish, or both?

Many Christians are uninformed and ignorant. I have been many years. The real question to me is how you will respond after you will be faced with the facts. Will you continue to act foolishly or not, will you stay in ignorance or not. There is plenty information out there, I gave few links as a beginning in my previous post.

I for one am pretty grateful that the infact mortality rate is a tad better than it was 75 years sgo, when my grandmother and grandfather each lost several siblings to childhood diseases.

This has nothing to do with vaccination. But mortality rate is better because of other causes. But you will not hear that from mainstream media and pharmaceutical cartel. And they will not tell you about the sicknesses and murders that vaccinations are causing, they will not tell you that their vaccines are the cause of thousands and thousands of autistic and disabled children. Also many of the sicknesses that child can go through in early ages are beneficial, because they will get much better immunity later in their lives. (I remember that similar accounts had John Wesley and George Muller, they were very sick in their young age, but later they had vibrant health). About how they pervert the statistics try to find and watch "Vaccination - The Hidden Truth" it is available online.

Re: TMK wrote ("So in your opinion, it is a sin to get your kids (or yourself) vaccinated, or just foolish, or both?
I for one am pretty grateful that the infant mortality rate is a tad better than it was 75 years sgo, when my grandmother and grandfather each lost several siblings to childhood diseases.")

Now can anyone see why I started this disscussion the way that I did??

Do you believe that Gods blessing is on vaccines made on aborted fetal tissue??

QUOTE:
"Do you believe that Gods blessing is on vaccines made on aborted fetal tissue??"

No.

I see no sin committed by a company using cells or tissue harvested from non-humans, e.g., monkeys.

I have read of pharm companies using cells harvested from umbilical cords from a live birth. To me this is a legitimate because no one is killed in the process.

I do believe polio vaccine is beneficial for mankind. I was born before the mass outbreak of it in the 50s...many children got polio - some died and others were crippled. In later life they developed post-polio syndrome - something my brother-in-law died from two months ago.

When mass immunizations were done this epidemic was stopped...there were still some who got polio but then they went to using dead cells instead and polio became history. Now in recent years it has become more widespread but do not know why - have not read up on this issue.

Someone mentioned how some illnesses are beneficial for the child.

Years ago "US News and World Report" had an article dealing with this issue, in particular to the pertussis/whooping cough vaccine. The theory was that since children no longer get it they are more susceptible to asthma. If you do a web search on THIS issue you will find people discrediting this theory. Regardless, what people say, I can tell one thing for a fact: there is a whole lot more diabetes today infecting young people then there were when I was a child in the 50s. Back then it was rare. Today it is commonplace. Why? The only vaccines we got were for small pox and, later, polio.

Anyhow...my two cents.

My opinion based on my current understanding...

Proudpapa wrote: "Now can anyone see why I started this disscussion the way that I did?"

You have no idea what you are doing. The Horror in the 1930's and 1940's Europe of six million Jewish civilians slaughtered, from young Children to the very old, being slowly executed in a very painfull ways, children being split in half with axes for sport, the starvation, the furnaces and gas ovens, etc, etc. I am not going to go into any further examples, you would throw up. I hope you never use the Jewish holocaust for such a comparision again. The movie: 'Schindlers List' gives a small glimpse of that awful holocaust. A movie that I could only watch once.

I am aware you meant no harm, and you wanted to make a strong point and you are my fellow Christian. I love you as a my fellow brother in Jesus Christ. Your heart is in the right place. You are missing a few facts.

Here is an eye opening article fron well known Christian scientists with respect to vaccines using human fetus cells, from Dr. Jonathan Safarti on behalf of Dr. Carl Wieland. Please read.

http://creation.com/abortion-vaccines

Hi TMK,

I for one am pretty grateful that the infant mortality rate is a tad better than it was 75 years sgo, when my grandmother and grandfather each lost several siblings to childhood diseases.

It isn't just a "tad better." The infant mortality rate is much, much lower than it was during the first half of the 20th Century. In 1935, the infant mortality rate in the United States was at nearly 60 deaths per 1000 children. In 2007, the rate had dropped to about 1.5 deaths per 1000 children. In other words, it was 40 times higher in 1935 than in 2007. One of the major causes of death in infants was from influenza which they typically spread from adults. As adults were vaccinated, fewer infants were exposed to it.

Skeptics can visit most health science centers and literally SEE how vaccines work by peering through a microscope. There are also plenty of peer-reviewed studies that analyze and critique various vaccines via a scientific method -- and most of these studies are not a part of any government or pharmaceutical company's study.

Like sister Ginnyrose pointed out, the polio vaccine has nearly eradicated the disease from every continent where the vaccine is widely available. In fact, you will notice that many third world nations that hinder the development or importation of vaccines are often plagued with diseases that have largely disappeared in the Western world.

The lack of those diseases has little to do with diet or forcing children to "develop better immunity." This was an idea in the 18th century for fighting smallpox -- where children were injected or exposed to smallpox -- and it probably resulted in many needless deaths and infections. If you look at the specific diseases, those who took respective vaccines were at a much greater advantage of avoidance and those without such vaccines were at a heightened risk of contraction.

As for vaccines that are based upon cells taken from aborted babies: I do not support stem cell research that would be taken from aborted babies.

Here is an interesting answer to some of the issues raised in this thread:

http://www.drwalt.com/blog/?p=264

from the National Network for Immunization Information (NNii) which by the way is not anti vaccines.

Human Fetal Diploid Cells

Human diploid cells are batches of human cells that are grown in a laboratory. Unlike cancer cells, they have the same number of chromosomes as normal human cells.

Certain diploid cell strains are valuable in vaccine manufacture because these cells can be used for a very long period of time in the laboratory and are a reliable means by which many viruses that infect humans can be successfully and easily grown. Vaccines prepared in human diploid cells have proven to be very safe over the past several decades.

Two different strains of human diploid cell cultures made from fetuses have been used extensively for vaccine production for decades. One was developed in the United States in 1961 (called WI-38) and the other in the United Kingdom in 1966 (called MRC-5).

WI-38 came from lung cells from a female fetus of 3-months gestation and MRC-5 was developed from lung cells from a 14-week-old male fetus. Both fetuses were intentionally aborted, but neither was aborted for the purpose of obtaining diploid cells.123. The fetal tissues that eventually became WI-38 and the MRC-5 cell cultures were removed from fetuses that were dead. The cellular biologists who made the cell cultures did not induce the abortions.

These two cell strains have been growing under laboratory conditions for more than 35 years. The cells are merely the biological system in which the viruses are grown. These cell strains do not and cannot form a complete organism and do not constitute a potential human being. The cells reproduce themselves, so there is no need to abort additional fetuses to sustain the culture supply. Viruses are collected from the diploid cell cultures and then processed further to produce the vaccine itself.

The WI-38 and MRC-5 cell cultures have been used to prepare hundreds of millions of doses of vaccines, preventing millions of cases of rubella, hepatitis A, varicella and rabies. In the United States, only one of these diseases can be prevented with an FDA-licensed vaccine not grown in human diploid cells. This is the RabAvert brand of rabies vaccine manufactured by Chiron Corporation.4

Some of the vaccines that are produced in human diploid cells might now be able to be prepared in alternative types of cell cultures. Some of these cell cultures were not available or were not considered suitable for use in vaccines when the original vaccines were developed. However, there is no guarantee that vaccines grown in these alternative cell lines would be as safe and effective as currently licensed vaccines and development is likely to be extremely costly. Thus, there is little incentive for vaccine manufacturers to develop and test new vaccines when an existing licensed vaccine is known to be both safe and effective.

http://www.immunizationinfo.org/issues/vaccine-components/human-fetal-links-some-vaccines

Re: ArtB I apperciate your kindness, and relization that I am not trying to offend anyone. I was not able to finish my illustration to make it work affectivly cause every one missunderstood, I do have to say that I am confused at how my analogy is worse than Raycomforts in 180 ??
I have heard no one complain about 180 other than a comment or to about leaving out a picture or to, Honestly show me how my anology is different or worse then 180??