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The Swaggart "expositors" bible

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kjcword

Hey everyone. I would like to ask what y'all think about the Jimmy Swaggart expositors bible. There are members of our church who prefer it above anything else. From what I see, my two biggest problem areas are: 1) the unfounded, finis dake pre-adamite earth theory and 2) the surprisingly unorthodox stance on MT 16:24 concerning Jesus telling us to deny ourself and carry our cross and follow him.

Any insights would be greatly appreciated. I would also like to express how much i love this forum.

thank you

kjcword


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narrowpath


Why all these versions different emphasis bibles like

Womens bible (do women need a different bible?)
Soldiers bible (why do we need that?)
Spirit filled bible (are the others not spirit filled?)
New Spirit filled Life bible (even better!)
John MacArthur study bible (Do I need a man to present the bible to me?)
The Healing Bible with Morris Cerrullo for $297,05
Masters Healing Presence Bible (a bit cheaper, only $104,97, Aspirin is still cheaper)

Why not just read a good literary bible translation like the KJV and allow the Holy Spirit to be my teacher?

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sermonindex

the surprisingly unorthodox stance on MT 16:24 concerning Jesus telling us to deny ourself and carry our cross and follow him.

It would be interesting to hear the stance that this bible takes on that passage. But I do agree with the next post we really do not need these extra bibles. Tozer would have grieved the fact that his words compile a study bible now. I am not saying we should never use them but really the scriptures by themselves are sufficient.

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RobertW

Any insights would be greatly appreciated.

As with any expository bible, the commentary, notes, etc., are not inspired, but are a reflection of the particular doctrinal views and personal beliefs of the commentator. It makes for a challenging read in my view. This is why I would recommend either a plain bible or one that has Hebrew and Greek words (tenses, etc.) that assist in the exegetical study of the text without a lot of commentary. The Newberry Bible is one I use.

Jimmy Swaggart is often criticised for his focus on the finished work of the cross. Matthew 16:24 is an example of his conviction that our deliverence from the power of sin is found in the finished work of the cross. He simply has the note, "the benefits of the cross, what Jesus did there [Col. 2:14-15]. This view is a consequence of his ongoing study driven by a desire to find victory over sin. After his fall he sought the Lord believing that the answer is in the book. He believed the bible contained the solution to his sinfulness. He believes he found the solution in understanding and applying what Christ did on the cross as it is a lot more than paying our sin debt. He is right about this, though I do not agree with him on all the details. In Matthew 16:24 I believe our own personal cross, that is, the perfect will of God for each of our lives, is what is in view. But I don't know a single minister that does not hold some unique view of some verse that I would not agree with. No different here.

What I am truly challenged by Paul's words to young Timothy; Some men’s sins are clearly evident, preceding them to judgment, but those of some men follow later. (1 Timothy 5:24 NKJV) The fact that J.S. longs to have victory over sin, in the face of all the years of humiliation, is a unique phenomena in our times and should not be discredited. His sin has gone before him to judgment. I have to wonder, what about the multitudes with secret sins that have been brazen enough to criticize the man trying to get right with God, stay right with God and go on preaching the Gospel? The fact that the man is doing anything for God is a testimony to God's grace and I for one will not be in the line criticising or critiquing. I rather spend the time considering myself, lest I also be tempted and fall. (Gal. 6:1)

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RobertW

Just to expand on what he is reffering to in Matthew 16:24ff:


Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (Romans 6:4, 5)

The key to our being dead to Sin (the dynamic) is that Christ Himself has already died to Sin in our place. This is what breaks the power of Sin over our lives.

For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. (Romans 6:10)

Jesus died to Sin so that those that have been baptized into Him by the Spirit can share in that reality. In the same way we were born in Adam bent towards Sin, we can be born again in the last Adam Jesus Christ DEAD to Sin. The key is the experience of having truly been Baptized into Christ. IF that reality is true then we can go on to the next verse:

Rom. 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus.

One can only RECKON what is already a reality. It is not pretending. Like writing a check. I can reckon all I want to that the money is there to cover the check I write, but if a deposit was never made it will bounce all the same. The word for reckon is the direct middle imperative of logizomai and complete proof that Paul does not mean that water baptism makes one dead to sin and alive to God. That is a spiritual operation is “in Christ Jesus” and only pictured by baptism. This is a plea to live up to the ideal of the baptized life. (A.T. Robertson) The key to truly being dead to Sin is not water baptism, but Spirit baptism. Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

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sermonindex

Why don't we simply read the Bible irregardkess of what type it is?

Bearmaster.

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kjcword

Maybe I should have explained myself a little better. I agree with each and every point made thus far. Some of our church leadership has begun to teach and hold to everything that this particular ministry preaches. I have began to feel a little uneasy about this. I am troubled and feel as if we have not sought God as much as we have sought the Swaggart expositors bible. I actually prefer to only go to commentaries after i have studied, just to make sure that i am not veering off. Thank you guys for your input.

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ginnyrose

QUOTE:


"Womens bible (do women need a different bible?)"

NO!


"Spirit filled bible (are the others not spirit filled?)"

When I first saw this in a store I was appalled! You indicating other Bibles are not "spirit filled but yours?" This is the nicest thing I can say about this title.


New Spirit filled Life bible (even better!)

Read the above.


The Healing Bible with Morris Cerrullo for $297,05
Masters Healing Presence Bible (a bit cheaper, only $104,97, Aspirin is still cheaper)

Really?! Ya gotta be kidding!

All these different Bibles could indicate that Christianity is nothing but another philosophy being marketed by enterprising entrepreneurs.

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jimp

hi, the main problem i have with this bible is that the helps are in with the scripture and are in red. it is something that an old dog cannot get used to.i can read my thompson chain easier and the scriptures are not interupted with comments.jimp have not found much in the comments to argue about.

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sermonindex

Nobody is talking about the elephant in the corner. I truly hope (and even believe) that Swaggart has moved beyond his sins of the past and has repented. However, according to the Bible he is no longer qualified to be a pastor or shepherd. I'm not making any comment on what he teaches, or what his doctrine is... but what I am saying is that he circumvented the "discipline" process and within a short period of time he had himself right back in the pulpic after bringing MUCH public disgrace to the name of Christ.

This is a real problem, and I believe that we would do well to be VERY cautious of this man.

Like I said, I believe he has moved beyond all the sins of the past. But that does not make a man qualified to pastor or shepherd or teach.

Krispy

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twayneb

Jimmy Swaggart is often criticised for his focus on the finished work of the cross. Matthew 16:24 is an example of his conviction that our deliverence from the power of sin is found in the finished work of the cross. He simply has the note, "the benefits of the cross, what Jesus did there [Col. 2:14-15]. This view is a consequence of his ongoing study driven by a desire to find victory over sin.

An interesting side note. It was this very doctrinal difference that caused one of the first pentecostal rifts in the early 1900's. If memory serves me right it was a man named Durham who began to teach the finished work doctrine at Azusa street. This did not square with the more traditional pentecostal viewpoint held by Seymore, et.al.. Again, if my understanding and memory are correct, the Assemblies of God, and other similar pentecostal sects followed from Durham and the pentecostal holiness, UPC, and other similar sects from Seymore, Parham, etc. I am not sure of Swaggart's background.

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pilgrim777

Agree, Krispy. He did not sanctify the Lord before the congregation. Yet, he continues to shepherd them. You can be sure there was a cost to all of this. There has probably been a bigger cost to his refusal to submit to church discipline than there was with his original sin. The sin was one thing and no one witnessed that but God, however the rebellion in his heart towards God that led to that sin was manifested for all to see when he would not comply with those that he always said he was under their authority. When, there was great personal loss at stake he did not respect their authority and became an authority unto himself. That alone, did more to stumble Christians than his original sin.

Very sad story.

Pilgrim

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RobertW

When, there was great personal loss at stake he did not respect their authority and became an authority unto himself. That alone, did more to stumble Christians than his original sin.

Certainly there are a great many things to consider. Again, some men's sins go before them to the judgment, while other mens sins follow after. If God should pull the card of every man that has sinned in similar fashion or failed to sanctify the Lord before the people at some point in their ministry, who would be left? I don't ride the bandwagon of critiquing of ministers that often prevails here on SI. Why? because we are all going to give an account to God, and that right soon.

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jimp

hi, this is an unusual situation. when he was being disciplined by the assemblies of God, he was their biggest contributor and owned the church and the property,the tv building , the radio station,the bible college,the printing presses, etc. and had many employees that were counting on him.this was a business move that has enabled him to keep most of his property that he surely would have lost. he left the assemblies and is independent. he has made many mistakes in his past but is probably a much better man today than he ever was. i live in his dorm which he rents to the public since the bible college is under 100 students but do not go to the church which is 1/4 full with people from around the country.(radio nand tv followers who have moved here )very few people from this area go to the church for we have many great churches in this area. i respect him now as never before but worry about some of his employees who seem to worship him.jimp

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sermonindex

I Jimmy Swaggart Expositors bible was thrust out there to bring understanding to all Christendom regarding a revelation of the cross. Brother Swaggart had received a powerful understanding about what Christ accomplished on the cross and our association with it. It helped me considerably. However, the brother would have done well if he had of stuck with just the Exposed revelation to which he came to understand. But like all men in ministry they tend to go beyond their intended ministry.

The Message of the Cross to which he teaches is profound and worth listening to. But when one is going to do a bible exposition, one will interpret meanings that one has no revelation on, so then you have man's understanding mixed in with God's.

We ALL will do this, so it's not exclusive to the Jimmy Swaggarts or other notables. We are convinced by what we know to be the truth, even if that perceived truth is error. The only way we know that we are speaking truth is by the power that follows. God will always confirm His word with signs following. Before we lose our heads on this one, a sign can even be someone "getting" what your preaching. This is what sets us apart from other religions, the power that follows when the word of God is actually preached.

Even when we say, "we have truth" that is still questionable until it's been tried. Personally, I have no truth, I am as blind as a bat.

But the Message of the Cross that Swaggart preaches is in my estimation, right on. And a much needed message in our generation.

As to your questions

1) the unfounded, Finis Dake pre-Adamite earth theory and 2) the surprisingly unorthodox stance on MT 16:24 concerning Jesus telling us to deny ourself and carry our cross and follow him.
The first question is not a salvation issue, it's just one's mans theory as to why certain things had existed at one time and no longer and we need to quell that nagging idea with a theory. Everyone of us have an opinion on some unfounded theory. Somehow it gets interwoven in our belief system, this can't be helped this will go on as long as man roams the earth.

The second, what exactly does brother Swaggart say in his Expositor regarding Matthew 16:24?

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pilgrim777

Robert,

I did not pass judgment on Jimmy and I hope you are not passing judgment on me. I don't know anything about his life the last 20 years. I am speaking about a point in time and everything I mentioned is public knowledge and it is not third hand. Do you think God banned Israel from critiquing David's actions or his son's?

God lays out everything for us in the Bible so that we can "critique" and learn from men's mistakes. He hides nothing. We can also critique and learn from men's mistakes in today's world while still showing mercy and kindness. If anything, these serve as warnings to us.

Here is a critique by Paul.

"Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as [were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ENSAMPLES: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." 1 Cor 10:1-12

Pilgrim

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RobertW

The second, what exactly does brother Swaggart say in his Expositor regarding Matthew 16:24?

Here is the layout of the passage with spaces to show the verse and then the comment.

_________

24: Then said Jesus unto His disciples, if any man come after me let him deny Himself.

comment: (not asceticism, but rather the denial of ones own strength and ability)

24b: and take up his cross,

comment: (the benefits of the cross, what Jesus did there [Col. 2:14-15].

24c: and follow me

comment: (if Christ is not followed by means of the cross, He cannot be followed at all).

25: For whosoever will save his life shall lose it

comment: (tries to live his life outside the cross; it can only be lived through the cross)

25b: whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall find it.

comment: (lose his life to Christ, which means to give his life to Christ, which can only be done through the cross; he then finds "newness of life" (Romans 6:3-5).

_________________


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sermonindex

If God should pull the card of every man that has sinned in similar fashion or failed to sanctify the Lord before the people at some point in their ministry, who would be left? I don't ride the bandwagon of critiquing of ministers that often prevails here on SI. Why? because we are all going to give an account to God, and that right soon.

The scripture is clear that teachers, pastors, elders etc are held to a very high standard and Paul spelled out in his letters to Timothy and Titus what those standards and qualifications are. There is a big difference between a Christian who stumbles now and then and sins... and teacher/pastor/elder who is being watched by the entire world who falls into habitual sexual sin. (if you recall, he was caught several times. He did not stop even after he was exposed.)

I dont hold that against Swaggert, and as I said, I believe he has moved beyond that. BUT according to scripture he is not to be a pastor/teacher/elder any more. He is not qualified. Pilgrim pointed out that he thwarted the authority of the church, and therefore he thwarted the very Word of God that he now seeks to exposit for us in his new expository Bible.

I dont hate Swaggert, altho I will be accused of it, I'm sure. I am saying that we would do well to avoid him. If he was truly following scripture he would have stepped down and never entered the pulpit again. Instead, he rebelled against church discipline and entered the pulpit to resume his career.

That is a real problem, and there is nothing wrong or gossipy about discussing that. Everything he has done has been right there in the public eye, just as Pilgrim pointed out. Therefore it needs to be addressed publicly. Being silent about it only leads to people blinldy following a man who is not qualified to stand and teach.

Krispy

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RobertW

I did not pass judgment on Jimmy and I hope you are not passing judgment on me. I don't know anything about his life the last 20 years. I am speaking about a point in time and everything I mentioned is public knowledge and it is not third hand. Do you think God banned Israel from critiquing David's actions or his son's?

I'm just not in the habit of bringing up past sins about people that are under the blood. If God casts a sin behind His back, I have no plans to go and examine it.

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RobertW

The scripture is clear that teachers, pastors, elders etc are held to a very high standard and Paul spelled out in his letters to Timothy and Titus what those standards and qualifications are. There is a big difference between a Christian who stumbles now and then and sins... and teacher/pastor/elder who is being watched by the entire world who falls into habitual sexual sin. (if you recall, he was caught several times. He did not stop even after he was exposed.)

Do you have any specific verses in mind that we can examine to determine the counsel of God in this matter?

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sermonindex

I'm just not in the habit of bringing up past sins about people that are under the blood. If God casts a sin behind His back, I have no plans to go and examine it.

The sin that got him in trouble isnt the one that we're concerned about. It's the rebellion and refusal to follow scripture in regards to the effects of that sin. Thats what matters now.

Krispy

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sermonindex

Do you have any specific verses in mind that we can examine to determine the counsel of God in this matter?

Start with Titus chapter 1, and 1 Timothy chapter 3...

Krispy

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RobertW

It is worth noting that view of the Cross being essential to understanding how Christ freed us from Sin (the dynamic) is not novel. In fact it is a key point Ron Bailey (philologos) brings out in his new book, "The Better Covenant." Christ took Sin down into death setting all free from it that are were in Adam, but are now in Christ. Very powerful thing to consider.

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RobertW

Start with Titus chapter 1, and 1 Timothy chapter 3...

I'm familiar with these passages. What passage suggests that if a man commits a sin of the flesh, he is disqualified from ministry for life? Does not 1 John 1:9 apply to ministers? And if there is no distinction between laity and clergy, wherein do we withhold forgiveness and restoration from any saint?

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sermonindex

I believe he has moved beyond all the sins of the past.
Don't lie brother, you do not believe this at all.

If you truly believed that then you wouldn't have said the other, "according to the Bible he is no longer qualified to be a pastor or shepherd".

If you stepped out on your wife and had relations with another woman. Then you went and told your wife about it and told her everything and cried for her to forgive you and she forgives you, do you stop being her husband?

Your treating him as if he is not forgiven.

What if your wife says, "I'll forgive you but I am going to divorce you anyway". She did not forgive you. By saying she will divorce you she is saying she did not forgive you.

Taking Pauls words and creating a law (God forbid) and now the law says that he can't be in ministry. And yet David under the Old Testament law, similitudes of examples and we under better promises, has more mercy under that old system than we do. He committed Adultery, Schemed and Murdered and God does not take away from him being King and being a Shepherd. According to the law, David and Bathsheba would have been stoned and his house would have been a manure pile. But God spared him, spared him from the curse of the law. I wonder if God under new management can do the same today?

If mercy can rewrite David, surely under this covenant God can restore a man's ministry.

The prodigal son returned and a robe, shoes and a ring was given to him having been in the pigpen of sin, sex and the like. How do we know that the prodigal wasn't a preacher? But here God is restoring everything to him, the robe of righteousness to be in His house, the ring of authority and the shoes to preach the gospel.

No it doesn't say the prodigal went out and preached, but that is what the robe, ring and shoes denote.

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sermonindex

Don't lie brother, you do not believe this at all.

No, I give him the benefit of the doubt that he has turned his back on THAT sin.

But to answer you and RobertW... he does not have a good reputation among those outside the church. He has not been faithful to his wife (husband of one wife)... etc.

I can believe that he has repented of the sin that got him in trouble, and still be in rebellion regarding the authority of the church to administer church discipline.

Sorry to break it to you, brother, but elders/pastors/teachers ARE held to a higher level of accountability, and Paul makes that clear and explains why.

If you dont like what I am saying, your argument is not with me... it's with scripture.

All I will do from this point forward it point you to the scriptures, so I will bow out now. Do not see this as me not able to respond to whatever is posted after this... I've simply said all that there is to be said on this topic.

Krispy

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jimp

hi,i am forced for your benefit to disclose what really happened to bro. swaggart so you will not fall the way he did.there was a pastor of a large ag church in new orleans who sinned with another pastors wife while counseling them for their shaky marriage. he confessed his sin to brother swaggart and was invited by bro.s to come to baton rouge for a season of repentance. the next thing you know bro. swaggart publicly discloses this mans sin. a few mounths later , the son of the accused preacher was doing his once a week volanteer ride with the jeff. parish sherrifs dept. and saw brother swaggart enter the texas motel on airline hwy. he called his dad and his dad came and took pictures. watch out what you say about someone .judge not lest ye be judged in the same manner.jimp

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sermonindex

jimp... we've said nothing here that isnt a matter of public record. We've disclosed no sin that hasnt already been discussed at length for 2 decades now.

It's a matter of record that he circumvented church discipline to get back into the pulpit as soon as possible.

All we're saying is that those things should give us pause about his role as a minister.

And yes, scripture does command us to judge. Twist not scripture lest ye be like the devil... as Paul Washer says.

Krispy

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jimp

hi, we are never to krino.but are to daikrino and anakrino. do a word study.jimp

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RobertW

This issue has never been whether the man sinned. The issue is whether or not that a man having sinned and having shown evidence of repentance, ought to be restored in ministry. Peter denied Christ and swore and yet Jesus restored him. The pastorals have the present active behavior of the potential leader in view; not their past. How could Paul possibly be an apostle after forcing people to blaspheme? He was the chief of sinners and yet obtained mercy of the Lord to such a grand ministry. God used his failure to prod him to search the scriptures and through revelation saw the Gospel of Christ in a way no one else did. How could a killer write the greatest chapter of love? That's an oxymoron. It's the transforming power of the Gospel.

Paul tells us in Galatians 6:1, Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. There are always consequences for sin, but restoration should always be our goal. Our key words here are 'spiritual' and 'meekness'. We all know (if we consider ourselves) that we are capable of falling into sin. That ought to show us our need to show mercy to others.

We can throw a person a life preserver or an anchor when they fall. If they will repent in a way that God can believe them, He will use them again. This is what Psalm 51 is about. It is written also for our learning. Can God remake the clay another vessel? Indeed He can and He will. Certainly the devil believes one shot- one kill, but not God. He is moving in resurrection power. And if I might so say the guy who falls and gets back up is in a better position to be used of God than the ones sitting around pretending they have no sin. Why? Because their actions are an obstacle for people coming clean before God with their own sins or to seek help.

When we get to the place that Christians and ministers fear seeking help in times of struggle, wondering who will publish their failures, rather than seeking to bring about repentance, restoration and accountability we are in a serious fix. What did David say?

And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let me fall now into the hand of the LORD; for very great are his mercies: but let me not fall into the hand of man. (1 Chron. 21:13)

Why? Because God forgives and casts the sin behind His back. Men just keep throwing it in your face until you despair even of life.

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sermonindex

We'll just have to disagree on this. :-)

Krispy

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gators52

Actually Krispy, Robert pretty much made his point in most of what he says while u just defer to the same line pretty much all the time... Agree to disagree. It seems in our day of so much theology we would have cast the repentant thief into hell because he didn't fit into our framework of theology. I'm pretty sure he wasn't worried about TULIP.... Thank the Lord for sending the Holy Spirit.

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sermonindex

I must not have said anything about reformed theology in awhile because you sure took the long road around the mountain in order to get a slam in on it....

That was quite a leap. Stay put... I'll call Guiness!

:-)

Krispy

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kjcword

Actually Krispy wasn't referring to salvation, but qualifications for ministry.

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pilgrim777

Swaggart disqualified himself from shepherding the Lord's people with his 2nd and 3rd incident and his continued rebellion against those he said he was in mutual submission to. The Assemblies of God truly wanted to minister deliverance and restoration to him, but he would have none of their biblical discipline. This rebellious spirit was manifested in his 2nd and 3rd incidents in 1990 and 1991. Is there anything really more to say, than the man needs prayer and he needs truth spoken to him.

At one time his ministry brought in 150 million a year but now he is millions in debt and lost 80% of his congregation. In 1988, many students in his Jimmy Swaggart Bible School, did not return in the fall to register.

Don't you think all these people realized something was wrong?

It is better to fall on the mercy of God rather than take things into your own hands. The leadership of the Assemblies of God back in 1988, was the mercy of God! They had his best interests at heart and wanted to help him and prevent further fractures in the Body of Christ.

He decided to become an authority unto himself. The rest is just a sad history of what happens when you do that.

Is there no example here for all of us to take heed to and learn from?

Pilgrim

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sermonindex

Is there no example here for all of us to take heed to and learn from?

flee babylon.

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RobertW

Is there no example here for all of us to take heed to and learn from?

Yes. And I think a great many of us here have learned it as best as we have revelation. I'm just not the man to cast the first stone. I'll let you fellas do that.

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RobertW

Getting back on topic.

Here, again, is the text in question from the Expositor's New Testament for Matthew 16;24ff.


Here is the layout of the passage with spaces to show the verse and then the comment.

_________

24: Then said Jesus unto His disciples, if any man come after me let him deny Himself.

comment: (not asceticism, but rather the denial of ones own strength and ability)

24b: and take up his cross,

comment: (the benefits of the cross, what Jesus did there [Col. 2:14-15].

24c: and follow me

comment: (if Christ is not followed by means of the cross, He cannot be followed at all).

25: For whosoever will save his life shall lose it

comment: (tries to live his life outside the cross; it can only be lived through the cross)

25b: whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall find it.

comment: (lose his life to Christ, which means to give his life to Christ, which can only be done through the cross; he then finds "newness of life" (Romans 6:3-5).

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pilgrim777

Yes. And I think a great many of us here have learned it as best as we have revelation. I'm just not the man to cast the first stone. I'll let you fellas do that.

I have spoken to my children and others of Cain murdering Abel, Aaron's sons offering strange fire, Eli's profane sons, David murdering Uriah, Judas betraying Jesus and so on and in none of these cases have I ever "thrown stones" as I see the propensity in me to do all these things.

And I have also not been smug and judgmental to brothers that discuss where these men may have taken the first wrong turn and what they might do to be restored.

Pilgrim

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RobertW

24b: and take up his cross,

comment: (the benefits of the cross, what Jesus did there [Col. 2:14-15].

24c: and follow me

comment: (if Christ is not followed by means of the cross, He cannot be followed at all).

We have Paul:

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Galatians 2:20)

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (Romans 6:6)

Paul explains that this reality is made possible by baptism into Christ by the Spirit. They that have the Spirit have been baptized into HIS death. He explains further:

But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. (Galatians 6:14)

It is what Christ completed on the cross, the Saints having been baptized into Him, that makes possible our death to both Sin (the dynamic) and this present evil world. Paul explains an even more radical way:

Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. (Colossians 3:2, 3)

We are in Christ andChrist is in God. All that He accomplished on the cross is made effectual to us that are IN Him. As surely as we were slaves to Sin in Adam, we are freed from the bondage of Sin through being baptized into the last Adam by the Spirit. As surely as we were constituted sinners by Adam's fall, we are now constituted righteous by Christ's victory over Sin at Calvary.

R
RobertW

And I have also not been smug and judgmental to brothers that discuss where these men may have taken the first wrong turn and what they might do to be restored.

Very good. Then you have steered them from the mind of the Pharisee.

J
jimp

hi, please do not type things until you know what your talking about. he is not that in debt. has not missed a payroll.is giving raises.is hiring.his assets are huge and he has money rolling in as he has widely espanded his tv/on line ministry world wide. jimp

R
RobertW

24c: and follow me

comment: (if Christ is not followed by means of the cross, He cannot be followed at all).

Again we have Paul,

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. (Colossians 3:1)

Our key phrase here is 'risen with Christ'. By implication, the person who has had the experience of being baptized into the body of Christ by the Spirit, is not only dead to Sin (the dynamic), but is now enabled to walk in the power of His resurrection. Otherwise he/she would simply be in some spiritual limbo, free from Sin, but not yet alive unto God. The cross dealt with old Adam.

The focus here remains on what Christ has done through His death and resurrection, and our seeking God to have what He has done made effectual in our lives by the Spirit. This brings to pass the true words of the Lord Jesus, I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. (John 15:15)

R
RobertW

25: For whosoever will save his life shall lose it

comment: (tries to live his life outside the cross; it can only be lived through the cross)

What makes the cross of Christ essential (and that is simply a way of identifying what Christ did on the cross, it has nothing to do with wooden beams, etc.) is that before Jesus died on the cross the New Covenant and all of its benefits were not in play. This is why a man like John and James can be wanting to call fire from heaven and then receive the Spirit and die loving folks. Paul even wished to be accursed from Christ if it would reconcile unbelieving Israel to God. This attitude is sure evidence that Sin moved out and Jesus moved in.

R
RobertW

whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall find it.

comment: (lose his life to Christ, which means to give his life to Christ, which can only be done through the cross; he then finds "newness of life" (Romans 6:3-5).

What Jesus did on the cross put the New Covenant into force. It is NOT like the Old Covenant in many ways, but one major difference is the blood that sealed each respective covenant. The blood of an animal enjoined the people to the Old Covenant. The blood of Jesus Christ enjoins us to the New Covenant. We have this comment in Hebrews:

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. (Hebrews 12:24)

What did the blood of Abel speak? It cried to the Lord from the ground. What did it cry? Obviously it cried for vengeance or in OT language, for an avenger of blood. God came a running. What about the blood of Jesus? What was His attitude and how was it different than Abel? Simple. Jesus was not tainted with Sin (the dynamic) His was the blood of God. When shed it speaks better things than that of Abel. It says what Jesus would say if He had been alive, Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. (Luke 23;34)

B
Blayne

I honestly don't know much about Swaggart's situation; outside the wide reporting of his failures awhile back.

But aside from that, what people don't commonly know is that EVERY church organization which has tax free exemption and which owns a piece of property and/or a building is structured as a CORPORATION. They are required by law to appoint shareholders and CEO's and Presidents. They even have a Board of Directors.

So, let's say that some Mega-Church is found in scandal. What many may not know is that the leader (pastor) of that church personally owns the majority of shares of that church/corporation.

If the leader of the mega-church writes a book or sells a CD, this is sold through a separate corporation which belongs to the holding group of the mega-church corporation. But the shares of this separate corporation selling the books and CD's is usually an entity owned by the leader.
When a mega-church must change pastors, it is essentially a buy-out of the pastor's shares. This is why you read that the pastor and the Board of Directors are negotiating the pastor's resignation. They are defining the value of the pastor's shares which the corporation buys back and distributes to the next pastor. Some of these pastor's severance packages are reported to be worth millions.

There was an incident recently where the mega-church owned helicopters and multi-million dollar homes for the Pastor and his children and whomever else. But in actual fact, the corporation owned these helicopters and homes. Yet, the pastor and his fortunate were the 'chosen few' few who owned the majority of the shares which controlled/owned these assets.

So, the pastor and the 'chosen few' are now apparently negotiating millions of dollars in severance pay for themselves. The mega-church corporation will survive with a new CEO appointment and new Board to continue milking the congregation.
People like Swaggart and the other mega-church leaders are in fact corporate CEO's and majority shareholders.
It doesn't matter if your mega-church is a genuine ministry or if they are a fraud. They are all structured as corporations. They all function with shares and shareholders.

This is why Swaggart and Crystal Cathedral and others always try to bring in their sons to replace them at retirement. Because the shares which Swaggart and Shuller own are assets that are passed on to family as part of their personal assets and estate at death. Otherwise, they must sell them to other shareholders in the corporation for far less money.
The congregation does not own a penny of the value of a mega church.

Did you also know that denominations are in fact legally structured as corporate Franchise holders? No joke.
They are umbrella holding companies which own 'franchises'. The franchise holders (Denomination Heads)hold the power to appoint/approve the franchisees ... the churches belonging to the denomination.
In effect, they own the ministerial papers of the franchise (other churches in the organization) and in essence control who is the pastor and whatever. If the pastor steps out of sync with the franchise holder, (denomination) they simply invalidate his ministerial papers which make him ineligible to continue preaching in the building owned by the denomination.

MacDonalds and Taco Bell have similar restraints and control on their franchises. For instance, if a franchisee fails to comply with some franchise regulation or standard, they lose the right to continue with the corporate sign/logo above their eatery.

As Occupy might say: It's truly owned by the 1% of the congregation.

B
Blayne

Megachurches-Supersized (Big Business)
By William Reed (Edited from original article)

Rock climbing walls, kids’ spaces that resemble small Disneylands, bookstores and state-of-the-art sound systems represent today’s church – supersized. Mega churches draw huge numbers of worshippers and receive millions in collection plates. Mega churches are successful corporate entities that seek to service all the spiritual and social needs of their communities.

Mega church’ pastors are major corporate CEOs shepherding large business bases. Mega churches are characterized by congregations of from 10,000 to 25,000 and spectacular buildings which house sanctuaries, day-care centers, bookstores, and health centers. Most resound with crowds and activities seven days a week, and own businesses, subdivisions, and separate community activity buildings.

Almost all mega churches have TV pastorates, feature high-tech video along with foot-tapping music. There are less than 50 nationwide, but Dallas-based Bishop T.D. Jakes, Houston’s Kirby Caldwell, Atlanta’s Eddie Long, Creflo Dollar and Charles E. Blake have grown their memberships by preaching material success and sales their books, festivals, and movies. Their congregations have expanded into businesses such as: schools, assisted living facilities and ex-offender re-entry programs.

The typical mega church is suburban, has a total budget of over $5 million and often more than 50 full-time staff. These churches tend to have a charismatic senior minister and an active array of social and outreach ministries. The average salary for a lead pastor in a mega church is $147,000. Salaries for lead pastors go as high as $400,000 to as low as $40,000. Executive pastors at churches that have a weekend attendance of 2,000 or more persons earn, on average, $99,000 a year. Generally, staffing costs average between 40 and 50 percent of many churches’ budget. A church with a budget of $1-1.99 million provides, on average, the senior pastor with a salary of $91,000. The average salary for a senior pastor at a church with a $10 million, or more, budget is $189,000. The median age for a mega churches’ senior pastor is 49.

In a survey conducted by the Leadership Network, churches with week end attendance of 2,000 or more provide their full-time staffers with medical insurance. Ninety-three percent of churches with week end attendances of 1,000, or more, offer their workers medical insurance. Forty percent offer medical coverage for employees’ dependents. Other benefits provided by a majority of mega churches include dental insurance, life insurance, long-term disability insurance, a retirement account and a technology/cell phone allowance. Four in five typically contribute to a retirement plan for staff.

There are 1,210 Protestant churches in the U.S. with a weekly attendance of 2,000 or more. A Leadership Network survey showed average mega church has a Sunday attendance of 3,585. But not all mega churches are mega. The survey found that only 16 percent of mega churches had 5,000 people in attendance on a given Sunday. On average, an ordained Protestant pastor serving a small congregation received a median salary and housing package of $31,234. There is a wide disparity in compensation between Protestant pastors serving small congregations and those serving medium and large congregations. In a survey, Protestant pastors serving a congregation of more than 1,000 members received a median salary and housing package of $81,923. Roman Catholic priests earned less than Protestant pastors, in part because they have no family to support. Depending on the size of the parish, the median salary for Catholic priests runs between $21,000 and $26,095. Jewish rabbis earn more than Roman Catholic and Protestant pastors combined.

The median church in the U.S. has 75 regular participants in worship on Sunday mornings. Many say “today’s churches are more concerned with raising money than saving souls.”

K
KingJimmy


What many may not know is that the leader (pastor) of that church personally owns the majority of shares of that church/corporation.

I'm sorry, I don't know where you are getting your information from, but that simply is not true. Not in the least bit.

501c3 organizations don't have shares that can be bought or sold like that. That is what makes them not for profit. And while there are certain basic requirements that every incorporated organize must have, even at the not for profit level. They must have a president, and they must have a board of directors and/or members who preside over the decisions of the organization. The powers of each are governed by the bylaws of the organization, which are ratified by the members. There are no shares that can be bought or sold.

And when it comes to denominations and how churches relate to those larger governing bodies by law are also varied. Some have their own individuality as their own self governing organizations. Others do not.

P
pilgrim777

by Hezwelling:

"flee Babylon"

Many are fleeing and undoubtedly, these scandals are used by God to open people's eyes.

Amen!

B
Blayne

In my opinion, you're not very well informed about these sort of things. Maybe I have something of an edge because I myself own an incorporated business and also am the Managing Director of solely owned Christian publishing business.

Read this Newspaper report. I know these perpetrators personally. After catching them attempting to manipulate the sheet counter on the Photo Copier which I had freely donated to their church, I removed the equipment and never returned.

http://www.thestar.com/article/187986

Another instance:
Check out how the CEO/Pastor of this mega-church corporation behaved: http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/line-between-megachurch-and-eddie-longs-estate-blu/nHX6S/
Who was authorizing these expenditures and behind-the-scene accounting tricks? The Board of Directors of the corporation. And why would they do that? Because that's what they signed on to. They justify the mess and continue receiving their exorbitant salaries and benefits.

Yet another instance is the Crystal Cathedral:
"The Crystal Cathedral megachurch in California says it will submit a plan to bankruptcy court next week that would get it out of Chapter 11 bankruptcy and erase its $35 million debt.
Spokesman John Charles says the church could then repay vendors who are owed $7.5 million.
The plan described Thursday calls for the sale of the 40-acre church property in Garden Grove to a real estate investment group.
The group would develop some of the land but allow the church to lease back its core campus for at least 15 years, with the option of buying it back at a fixed price after four years.
Charles says church services and the weekly “Hour of Power” TV broadcast will continue uninterrupted.
He declined to provide the investor’s name or purchase price."

This is contrary to those who assumed that their donations over the years were paying for a building in and for THEMSELVES. When it came down to the crunch, the leaders had squandered the contributions with their obscene salaries and padded expense accounts, (not to mention the liabilities of their huge guaranteed pensions), and entered bankruptcy. The sold the property from under the member's feet!

What I'm saying is that Christians must return to what a real and genuine church is meant to be. Certainly not an entertainment centre! Or the holder of a financial empire!

K
KingJimmy

Blayne,

I am no expert, but I have a legal finance background in forming various corporate entities, mergers and acquisitions. A 501c3 is not the same as an incorporated company, LLP, or LLC. There are no shares of stock to own, buy, sell, share or trade. Thus there are no profits to be made as a result, and the entity is considered a not for profit because there id no underlying shares of stock that can somehow exchange hands. This is why the government doesn't tax the income these organizations recieve.

501c3's act as a way for a community of people to organize and pool their resources together for whatever common non commercial interests they have. It allows them to share property, funds, etc. It cannot be compared to a commercial enterprise like owning a publishing company. These two entities behave in totally different manners.

See: http://www.citmedialaw.org/legal-guide/nonprofit-organization

S
sermonindex

I heard a story of a humble monk who was invited to the Vatican. A cardinal was showing the monk all the papal treasures. He said you see my brother. No longer will the church have to say silver and gold I do not have. The humble mink replied. But my brother. Can the church say. In the name if Jesus. Rise up and walk.

Apply this to the mega churches.

Bearmaster standing down.

K
KingJimmy

Healings happen at the mega church I am a part of. Better yet, so do salvations.

S
sermonindex

And when it comes to denominations and how churches relate to those larger governing bodies by law are also varied. Some have their own individuality as their own self governing organizations. Others do not.

my words are NOTHING, let Jesus speak: (and i DO wonder how many will eat of This Word)

The High Priestly Prayer-John 17

When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

“I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.

“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”

John 17

S
sermonindex

Megachurches-Supersized (Big Business)
By William Reed (Edited from original article)

Rock climbing walls, kids’ spaces that resemble small Disneylands, bookstores and state-of-the-art sound systems represent today’s church – supersized. Mega churches draw huge numbers of worshippers and receive millions in collection plates. Mega churches are successful corporate entities that seek to service all the spiritual and social needs of their communities.

Mega church’ pastors are major corporate CEOs shepherding large business bases. Mega churches are characterized by congregations of from 10,000 to 25,000 and spectacular buildings which house sanctuaries, day-care centers, bookstores, and health centers. Most resound with crowds and activities seven days a week, and own businesses, subdivisions, and separate community activity buildings.

Almost all mega churches have TV pastorates, feature high-tech video along with foot-tapping music. There are less than 50 nationwide, but Dallas-based Bishop T.D. Jakes, Houston’s Kirby Caldwell, Atlanta’s Eddie Long, Creflo Dollar and Charles E. Blake have grown their memberships by preaching material success and sales their books, festivals, and movies. Their congregations have expanded into businesses such as: schools, assisted living facilities and ex-offender re-entry programs.

etc etc etc.

so i ask you all this...is it any great surprise why thousands upon thousands of nuclear warheads await, hidden and lethal in silos, in submarines, with the darkened heart of man in control of such weaponry?

He who has ears to hear.

S
sermonindex

David Platte has wisely observed that Jesus was a mini church leader. You know where two or three gathered in his name.......

Guess we are missing something here.......

Bearnaster.

R
RobertW

David Platte has wisely observed that Jesus was a mini church leader. You know where two or three gathered in his name.......

Guess we are missing something here.......

I think it is safe to say that size really has nothing to do with whether or not Christ is present. Buildings and congregational sizes are not even issues when it comes to whether Christ is walking in the midst, tending the lampstand. The issue is, is the assembly holding the Head (Christ) and seeking to follow His direction and leading. We tend to forget that some 3000 people were saved and baptized in Acts 2:41 in a short period of time. Was Christ not among them because they could not fit into a house church? (my house is a part-time house church btw, so I'm not slamming house churches)

It's not the size of our assemblies or building, but the size of our obedience to the High Priest that matters.

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