Speaking of being broken before the throne...

Brethren,

I know that in the Christian life, it's difficult to ask the question, "How do I...?" simply because we are each individuals with whom God has an individual relationship. What he may accomplish in you by this method, he may accomplish the same end in me by a different method. And frankly, my brain tends to work in a highly formulaic manner (E.G.: prayer + blameless living = blessing, or anything along those lines, not necessarily this example), and this is an un-realistic way to think as a believer.

So...

With that in mind, I want to ask: how has God brought you to a place of brokenness? I know the scriptures, I've studied the prayers of the prophets and the encounters with God in the biblical narratives (Abraham, Jacob, Isaiah, Paul, etc.,etc.) and I've got to say that more than ever, I desperately want the presence of God to overwhelm me. I want to be broken before him, but I look at my life and I know that I'm not at a place of brokenness yet. This isn't some legalistic trip I'm putting myself on, or a quest to conquer condemnation; this is a desire of mine. I feel that I might slip into legalism (e.g.: you just have to pray more, Nate; you just have to read more, Nate; you just have to fast more, Nate) and I don't want that to happen. Although I AM reading and praying and fasting more, it's because my affection for God is increasing, not because I'm relying on those avenues or "formulas" (prayer + fasting = brokenness) to break me. I want my full trust and hope and expectation to be in God, not in me or my methods. I want to be broken before the throne, I'm just struggling to get there...

Any doctrine, reproof, correction, or instruction in righteousness would be wonderful right now. :)

Allow me to amend my statement:

I'm not struggling to get there (or maybe I am a tad bit), but I'm struggling with understanding how men are broken.

A.W. Tozer said, "Don't try to wound yourself. If you try to wound yourself, you won't get any place. 'Faithful are the wounds of a friend.' If you try to wound yourself, you will only give in to the flesh. Come to Him, and let Him do the wounding. Nobody can teach you this wound, and you cannot inflict it yourself."

Is brokenness a bad thing to ask for? When I've told close brothers of mine this desire to be broken, the response I normally get is along the lines of, "you'll be sorry you asked for that." Really? Will I be? I sincerely hope not...I'm not expecting fun, or fluffiness, or kittens or candy sticks.

It is of the Lord that this brokenness comes. When a person yields themselves to see as God sees, feel as God feels, and know as God knows. (As much as finite creatures can experience Infinite attributes of God) Moses was there when he saw the great sin of Israel, 'This people has sinned a great sin'. When JEremiah saw the wrath and judgment of God poured out on Jerusalem and Judah he wrote Lamentations. God allows for us 'enlarge our heart'. When Christ looked upon Jerusalem, knowing their rejection of Him and His Father, He wept over the city. Why? He was broken for the sins of His people and He knew what would happen in AD 70.

The agony of seeing sin, knowing how God will meet that person in their sin will cause brokenness. Knowing even more that God is merciful and gracious and stands ready to pardon, cleanse and forgive, but the hardness of men's hearts keep them from receiving His great gift of salvation is even more heart breaking. And to know the reality of eternity that these souls will spend an eternity in hell for their life, causes us brokenness.
How do we not stay in a constant state of perpetual anguish and brokenness, we 'look unto Jesus' and see His glory; we know His Divine love; we see His mericful blessings and provisions; we count His faithfulness to us and give thanks for we knwo we deserved nothing, but receive all things. It is the paradox of our livng. Always rejoicing, yet consumed with grief for the lostness of men. Crying out to God for mercy upon a wicked people, yet knowing that this same God is more than willing to show His mercy to them that seek it.
There is well that cannot be drained of all that goes into this. Hope these tidbits help a little
blessings,
until,
dan b

Hi! NateMarshall

You wrote:
"I've got to say that more than ever, I desperately want the presence of God to overwhelm me. I want to be broken before him, but I look at my life and I know that I'm not at a place of brokenness yet."

I think you might have been reading too many pious devotional books or self-help books.
The truth is, God has no desire to have you, "broken before Him" as you are asking. Absolutely none whatsoever!

I too was unwittingly caught up with this pious nonsense for years.

In many Christian circles the idea exists that God wishes to break and destroy the human spirit, the will and the heart. They sing: 'Break me completely'. This approach amounts to asking God in prayer to do the work of the evil spirits. As if God desires robots or human wrecks and ruined people.

Ours is a time in which the key of knowledge has been taken away from among Christian people. The bible teaches that the law of the Spirit sets us free, so it is unnecessary to memorize the Ten Commandments, but very necessary to investigate the laws of the spiritual world. "An athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules. 'I do not run aimlessly'", Paul says, "'I do not box as one beating the air'".

In Ephesians 6 the apostle writes that we are not contending against flesh and blood, which includes our own flesh and blood. Falsehoods lead people astray, teaching them to sing: "Make this poor self grow less and less".

Jesus however taught us to pray: "Deliver us from the evil one!"

The bible does not teach us to fight and abandon ourselves. Luke 9:25 asks: "What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses or forfeits himself?".
We lose ourselves only when we are overpowered by the evil one. When a man loses himself he falls victim to the devil who overpowers him, robs him of his freedom and injures him.

Jesus, however, has come to heal the injured that they may truly be people after God's purpose. God's Spirit seeks to have fellowship with man's restored spirit in freedom that the pure fruit of this communion may be revealed.

Others teach that one has to be willing to pay the price if one wants to enter the Kingdom of God. They say that the price is putting the self to death. These people unwittingly sing, "Break me, melt me, fill me". The price they offer for the Kingdom of God is the willingness to be broken. They want to get rid of everything God has given them in life. They ask God to break them as an earthen pot and to fill them afterwards!

When they sing "break me, fill me", they have surely pushed aside their common sense. After all, once it has been broken into pieces it's quite difficult for an earthen pot to be repaired. A Christian should rather pray for healing and restoration for that is the way in which he can be filled with the Spirit of God.

Jesus said: "For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses or forfeits himself?" (Luke 9:25). Those who put 'self' to death and become 'nothing', those who lose self, are an easy prey for the evil one, for there is no power left in them to resist him.

Self-control is one of the fruits of the Spirit. It means that man's will controls and directs his spirit. This is the way in which the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. A man who loses self-control, that is, loses control of his own spirit, becomes an easy prey for the enemy.

In Psalm 51 David speaks of his awful sins and transgressions, confessing that his spirit is broken and his heart is wounded. This is the result of the powers of sin in his life. He is fearful and anxious that God may turn away from him, and he cries out: "A broken and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise".

On the contrary: "God heals the brokenhearted and binds up their wounds", (Psalm 147:3). "The Lord saves the crushed in spirit", (Psalm 34:18). God does not break man's spirit, he does not make him sick or crush his heart. God "satisfies your heart with food and gladness!", (Acts 14:17).

Jesus came to heal, to save, to set free and to restore. He sets the prisoners free and breaks their chains. That is why Scripture says: "Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice!"

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Speaking of being broken before the throne...
by NateMarshall on 2012/6/7 18:05:05
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Hi! NateMarshall

I returned to this Thread to re-read it. Sometimes I'm having to do that because I don't always obtain the intent of the Thread at first glance.

Whew! It was only on the second reading that I noticed your saying: "A.W. Tozer said, "If you try to wound yourself, you will only give in to the flesh. Come to Him, and let Him do the wounding. Nobody can teach you this wound, and you cannot inflict it yourself."

This fellah's advice is utterly pious nonsense!
Unbelievable! It's obscene that anyone should suggest that Jesus desires to wound people.

Errors lead a Christian away from the true foundation in the heavenly places and take him into Babylon, the great city of confusion, the great harlot who sits upon many waters (religious opinions). The pure and sound doctrine of truth leads along the high road to the purpose of God: the conformation to the image of Christ.

There is so much rubbish out there inviting Christians to excavate their navels. The evil one is doing treacherous damage while having God's people preoccupied with their 'self'.

It has always been difficult for Christians to have a proper perspective concerning the attributes of humility, obedience and sacrifice. However, we shouldn't be surprised that the evil one is eager to distort the intent and meaning of these attributes.

There will be some who might ask the question: "But doesn't man have to be little and humble? Doesn't he have to subordinate himself completely? Didn't Jesus say, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself?", (Matt 16:24).

Jesus was speaking of those who would come after Him, who desired to follow Him. It concerns the first step on the high road. Those of us who want to share in the heavenly call will have to humble himself in the visible world. He will have to be inclined to help and serve others. He who looks after his sick neighbor's difficult children shows self denial. She who babysits for a young couple who want to go to church shows self denial. Those who insist on comfort, ease, honor and attention are unfit to follow Jesus, "He did not serve Himself".

Those who are capable of humility in their natural life will not be handicapped in spiritual life by earthly worries and the anxieties of life. But in his struggle against the evil one in his own territory, the believer will put on his royal raiment and use his authority. A true Christian is lenient and easy in the natural world, but in the unseen world he does not compromise, and takes up his place as a man of authority.

Some say that self has to die. The Spirit of God will not do this, for He is a life- giving Spirit. If self dies, how can Paul say, "I boast in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ"? Does man have a second self? If not, how can he have fellowship with Christ, if he has no longer his own self? Really, the enemy has an easy job of it if we piously insist that we have killed our own self, for how could there be life in us if we had? Or communion with God?

By fighting self, by making laws and precepts, by establishing rules and regulations, we end up in legalistic attitudes where joy and gladness will die. God wants us to struggle in the heavenly places against the powers, the rulers of this world, the evil spirits in the heavenlies, until, having been set free from all our enemies, we may serve Him without fear all the days of our life!

While it remains true that we are not fighting against self, but only the evil one, Jesus said that those who wish to follow Him, have to deny themselves. Self-denial is the first step on the road towards salvation.

What did the Lord mean by this?
As long as a woman is independent and unmarried, she decides for herself what to do and where to go. She is her own master. When this woman marries, though, she gladly and of her own will drops the independence she had. From that moment onward she is united with her husband, and arranges her behavior to suit him.
In a good marriage this kind of self-denial is not something difficult but rather a matter of joy. It is an easy yoke and a light burden. Paul writes: "I have been crucified with Christ and yet I live, that is, no longer my own self, but Christ lives in me. and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in (communion with) the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me".

In faith the human spirit is married to the Spirit of God "in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit", (Romans 8:4). It is God's purpose to take up a dwelling place in man, not to kill or subdue man's personality, as in a marriage that has gone wrong and as the devil tries to do, but in order to dwell together in the earthly tabernacle in perfect love and harmony. God has no pleasure in the death of a sinner, but in his repentance, that he may live ! He desires that his people have life, and have it abundantly.

Romans 8:12,13 says: So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh - for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live."

"We are debtors" means that we are required to live according to the Spirit, for He lives in us. We are not allowed to live according to the flesh to do its desires. If we live according to the flesh, if a Christian backslides or weakens until he listens to the enemy again, (the instigator of the evil desires in man), he is alienated from God, and this separation will lead to his destruction and death.

This verse also mentions the "deeds of the body", when the Evil One used the body to reveal his intentions in the visible world. How can we put to death these deeds of the body? By the law of the Spirit of life ... not by adhering to the law of Sinai!

The law of the Holy Spirit, which functions in the body of Christ (the congregation), leads to deliverance and salvation, to fullness and perfection. Putting it to death means commanding it to cease functioning. This happens when we resist by the power of the Holy Spirit the desires created by the devil. Then the body is for the Lord and the Lord for the body. Then we glorify God with the body, (1Cor 6:13,20).

The answer to the problem of sin cannot be found in humility, in self-denial, in chastising the body, in fasting or adhering to restrictive precepts, but only in faith that He who is in us is stronger than the one who is in the world. He who trusts in the Lord has faith in the power and wisdom of the Holy Spirit who dwells in him. The Holy Spirit creates in us thoughts and desires for that which is good and acceptable and perfect. He fills us with the thoughts of God which lead us towards life.

When Jesus invites the people to come to Him, it is to lay down the yoke of the enemy which burdens them. Jesus calls them to renounce their false thinking and ideas, to stop giving in to the pressure of the pious spirits, to listen to Him, to accept His thoughts (Word) and to take upon them His yoke. That is why it says, "Learn from Me".

Jesus comes to deliver all who turn to Him from the yoke of the pious spirits. That is why Paul was able to say: "For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery", (Gal 5:1).

Jesus specifies the qualities of his doctrine, as opposed to that of the evil spirits, "Learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart". The teaching of Jesus has nothing in common with the pressure and compulsion of the pious spirits. His call to serve God is not hard and commanding; He only invites: "Let him who desires come. Jesus does not threaten, He does not agitate those who follow Him but allows them ample time to develop harmoniously and to recover from inner damage and injury. "He will not wrangle or cry aloud, nor will any one hear his voice in the streets; He will not break a bruised reed or quench a smoldering wick", (Matt 12:19).

Jesus' yoke is easy, His burden is light. Are we prepared to take upon us this yoke, to turn away from the pious teachers who try to infiltrate our thoughts with ideas which don't belong to God? Are we ready to turn our back on the pious denial of natural life, on self-chastisement and the desire for outward show in our life of faith, on religious efforts and cold, hard religious consistency?

For Jesus promises those who accept his yoke, "And you will find rest for your souls".

Hi! Old_Joe

You wrote:
"When God breaks you, it is not a fun time. .... It happens when EVERYTHING that you place hope, joy, comfort or trust in is removed from your grip, leaving you entirely shattered".

I read those sentences of yours with much perplexity.

Because we confess that God is ONLY and perfectly good, we must be very vigilant about misappropriating our emotional postures to God.

The same thing can be said for all these who remain eager to wallow in a piety of denial and self-accusation. It is a false premise to believe the fraudulent emotional releases which usually accompany these pious spirits as coming from God. These emotive feelings testify to nothing about God nor of His posture towards us.

Thank you, everyone, for your feedback.

I went and checked all the usages of the English word "broken" throughout the whole of the Bible, and it seems to be limited in use to: walls, necks, idols, bondages, and spirits. Any time the brokenhearted or the downcast were brought up, God was always healing and binding up wounds and, like you said Blayne, giving life. Not once is it ever used in the sense that the modern church uses it, "be broken before God", "be broken before His throne", etc.,etc. The only place it's used in a positive sense is in Psalm 51, and even then it's not a command to be broken, nor does it say that God breaks His people.

Perhaps "broken" isn't the right term to use, although the idea of humility (which is very right and true) is attached to it. 2 Peter 2:24 says "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. [b]By his wounds you have been healed[/b]." Christ received the wounding and breaking that I deserved, and in Him I now have life.

I suppose this is a concept that is so prevalent in the church that it's become un-questioned, almost as if those that didn't know about it or strive to attain it aren't "mature in the faith". I've never considered its scriptural foundation (or lack thereof) until a few days ago.

I've been frustrated for a long time, but never thought to check Scripture until recently. What a bonehead. :P Thank God for His patience and mercy.

This isn't to say that I've stopped meditating on this idea. I still have the encounters with God to consider more in depth, but solely on the fact that "broken" isn't used in Scripture in the contemporary way is certainly a compelling argument against the concept of brokenness.

O God, give us insight and discernment! What should we desire? What matches up with who you are? Teach us to pursue holy pursuits, and desire God-glorifying desires.

Brother, I am in the same position. I want to know God the way I don't know Him yet (even though I am born again). I want to have such real fellowship that fills me with His presence.

The only thing that's between me and God is my own self. Tozer in his book (like you said) talks about this, and one of the things he is saying is about our own self, own righteousness, own dependence, own control, own will is standing between us and a Spirit filled life.

So we have no other option then to God to God in word and prayer, to seek His face with all our hearts and ask Him to do the work of killing our 'I' and making empty for Himself!

God bless you brother!
Wijnand

You have such a pure heart, and a geniune desire to seek the face of God. I can go on and on, as you can see it is getting late. I will however return. I wanted to correct if you will a statment you made in the pursuit of god.

(prayer + fasting = brokeness)(prayer + fasting = revival)

You must first acknowledge who he is.. The brokeness comes as he begins to purge you. Its a process it does not happen overnight. It is called the refiners fire..

You are not alone!

Hi! NateMarshall

I'm feeling very happy and blessed after reading your comments.
Now that you're no longer preoccupied with excavating your navel, you will be better able to keep your eyes on Jesus and His kingdom. I have every confidence that your Christian experience will begin to mature and progress exceedingly well. Yes, I thank Jesus along with you!

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by NateMarshall on 2012/6/7 23:13:08

Thank you, everyone, for your feedback.

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Hi! Wijnand

I read your comments here with much sadness.
The first thought that came into my mind was, "Well, easy tell that this guy has never been married before".

You wrote: "So we have no other option then to go to God in word and prayer, to seek His face with all our hearts and ask Him to do the work of killing our 'I' and making empty for Himself!"

You were doing great until you dropped the lead balloon of needing to ask God to do the work of killing your ego and somehow purging you to make room for Himself.

Well, brother, you'll be waiting an eternity for your ideas to produce any fruit which the Lord might be pleased with.

I guess you've never been married; or else you've never understood that an earthly marriage is a visible picture of the invisible relationship you have with Jesus.

When a married couple awaken in the morning, do they remove their faces? Substituting their identity with an image which they perceive their spouses would prefer? Do they begin self inventory to confirm that their spouses still has reason to remain married to them? Are they busy losing the selves that their spouses fell in love with in the first instance?
Hardly likely.

An insecure married relationship breeds fear and insecurity. It creates needless tensions and conflict.
So, why do you insist on doing these absurd things in your relationship with Jesus?

Jesus not only loves you the way you are ... moreover, He loves you for who you are to become!
But Jesus has no desire to change the person per se. He simply desires that His followers align their thoughts and desires towards Him with equal passion and dedication as His own towards them.

Of course, when His followers do that, they are not being emptied ... but filled. Not killing the ego, but rather obediently surrendering it.

If you insist on thinking like your comments here, you are asking to enter into an abusive relationship and God wants nothing of that sort of thing.

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by wijnand on 2012/6/7 23:44:22
Brother, I am in the same position. I want to know God the way I don't know Him yet (even though I am born again). I want to have such real fellowship that fills me with His presence.
The only thing that's between me and God is my own self. Tozer in his book (like you said) talks about this, and one of the things he is saying is about our own self, own righteousness, own dependence, own control, own will is standing between us and a Spirit filled life.
So we have no other option then to God to God in word and prayer, to seek His face with all our hearts and ask Him to do the work of killing our 'I' and making empty for Himself!
God bless you brother!
Wijnand
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Without brokeness the glory of God will not be seen.

There is too much 'ego' in the church. I have known a number of saints who have this brokeness and the sweetness of the Lord is evident in their lives. Far too many others who think that brokeness is a strange thing display their own ego and pride.

All the examples in scripture of men that God used were broken in one way or another. Consider Abraham, Moses, Job, Jacob, Paul and Peter.

It is not that God breaks our spirit or our individuality, but He does break our self confidence, self esteem, self righteousness, self love, self strength,etc, etc...

I agree with Tozer when he says that we cannot break or wound ourslves, but God will wound us. This may be needed to bring us to the place of reliance on God's strength. Is this not what God did with Jacob with his hip, or Paul with his thorn in the flesh, or Peter when he denied His Lord?
This wounding may be a physical thing like Paul or a wounding of our heart like Peter. But one thing is sure, if it is of the Lord then the result will be a decrease of our ego and a greater dependance upon the Lord's grace and strength and thereby His glory is displayed and not our glory.

Hi! Heydave

You wrote:
"It is not that God breaks our spirit or our individuality, but He does break our self confidence, self esteem, self righteousness, self love, self strength,etc, etc..."

On one hand you state that God does not break our spirit or individuality while, on the other, stating that He only breaks our self-confidence, self-esteem, self-righteousness, self-love, self-stength, etc, etc ... "

The question you left me with was:
What would be remaining of our spirit and individuality if God should break all the other attributes which you have listed?

Sometimes I wonder if I might be doomed to be a bird-watcher for the rest of my days. I say this because there seems to be far too many religious parrots in the Christian family who have an astonishing compulsion to chant the burlesque cries of the false teachers.

The religious parrots seem to have not learned, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world".

Otherwise, they would not be so eager to chant the fraudulent pious nonsense being peddled in these days and no one would need to be bird-watchers.

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by Heydave on 2012/6/8 3:15:32
Without brokeness the glory of God will not be seen.
=================================

by Heydave on 2012/6/8 0:15:32

Without brokeness the glory of God will not be seen.

There is too much 'ego' in the church. I have known a number of saints who have this brokeness and the sweetness of the Lord is evident in their lives. Far too many others who think that brokeness is a strange thing display their own ego and pride.

All the examples in scripture of men that God used were broken in one way or another. Consider Abraham, Moses, Job, Jacob, Paul and Peter.

It is not that God breaks our spirit or our individuality, but He does break our self confidence, self esteem, self righteousness, self love, self strength,etc, etc...

I agree with Tozer when he says that we cannot break or wound ourslves, but God will wound us. This may be needed to bring us to the place of reliance on God's strength. Is this not what God did with Jacob with his hip, or Paul with his thorn in the flesh, or Peter when he denied His Lord?
This wounding may be a physical thing like Paul or a wounding of our heart like Peter. But one thing is sure, if it is of the Lord then the result will be a decrease of our ego and a greater dependance upon the Lord's grace and strength and thereby His glory is displayed and not our glory.
__________

Thank you for sharing this I very much appreciated what you said here. I think you expressed what being broken before the LORD means. I know that there have been times in which the LORD has used experiences in my own life to help me die to self and live depending on HIM. The need to be in control, to hold on to the reigns instead of relinquishing them was for a long time a struggle for me until the LORD in HIS love and mercy brought me to a place of seeing there is nothing that I can control in this life. I saw how weak I was, HE brought me to a place of being broken in my independent attitude that I carried. I now seek to daily walk dependently upon HIM instead of independently in self!

God bless
mj

Hi! Mary Jane

Thank you for your thoughtful Post.
I've read and re-read it a few times now.

I would like to reiterate once again that Jesus does not "wound" His followers as Tozer seems to imply. The explanation for my disagreement is previously stated in this Thread.

Our relationship with Jesus can be compared to the relationship between two spouses. As such, it would be nothing short of an abusive relationship to permit a wounding or deprive the other of their express person.

Eph 5:22-23 equates the relationship of a husband and wife saying: "This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband."

Our relationship with Jesus is not one of domination. Rather, it is one of mutual love and affection which causes us to willingly yield and submit ourselves to Him. We do this without risk of losing ourselves or betraying our individual makeup. We remain whole as individuals while, at the same instance, aligning our desires to become 'one' with His purposes and intents.

I am an identical twin. Even though my twin and I very closely resemble one another physically, our 'selves' remain distinctly different from one another.
It could be said that we Christians are becoming identical twins of Jesus while still retaining our individuality. This is in keeping with the Scripture saying, "but we know that when he appears, we will be like him, for we will see him as he is".

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by MaryJane on 2012/6/8 6:11:44
======================

Dear Blayne,

Your wrote:"Sometimes I wonder if I might be doomed to be a bird-watcher for the rest of my days. I say this because there seems to be far too many religious parrots in the Christian family who have an astonishing compulsion to chant the burlesque cries of the false teachers".

I was sad to read this! However it does demonstrate what I was saying about 'ego'.

I could have written a long discourse and given many scriptural references to what I wrote, but 1/I don't think you are interested and 2/ It is clear to those who have walked with the Lord for some time this is how he deals with His people. I do pray that you will have a heart that will be open to see these things.

I did give you some references of people written in the bible, but did not give the details. Take time to read the lives of these saints in scripture and the saints of more recent times and you will see this clearly.

You wrote: "The question you left me with was:
What would be remaining of our spirit and individuality if God should break all the other attributes which you have listed?"

What would be left, would be ourselves as God made us to be; un-selfish, loving God and others before self, confidence in God not self, having His righteousness not our own, humble and relying on God's strength and wisdom.
Does that not seem a good thing? I think it does!

Blessings to you.

Edit: Just found this link to an article by Zac Poonen about brokeness. https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=40832&forum=34&2

A.W. Tozer said, "Don't try to wound yourself. If you try to wound yourself, you won't get any place. 'Faithful are the wounds of a friend.' If you try to wound yourself, you will only give in to the flesh. Come to Him, and let Him do the wounding. Nobody can teach you this wound, and you cannot inflict it yourself."

__________________

Blayne for me personally I completely get what Tozer is saying here. This is my understanding :) In my flesh I was a control nut. I wanted to control everything around me including people when I could not, well lets just say I was not the nicest of people to be around. Anyway during that time in my life no one could have told me these things about myself that I would have listened to, I was filled with a whole bunch of self. I could not have opened my own eyes either to see this sin in myself so GOD used some very painful events and situations to bring me to a place to show me just how sinful my controlling behavior and attitude was. Was it painful, YES! Did I feel wounded? YES and YES! in self for sure I did. I could not have shown myself these things, I could not have learned them from another because of self so only the HOLY SPIRIT could reveal these things to me and that is what I believe Tozer is talking about :) Honestly I give thanks for those times of chastisement from the LORD, sure it feels like being wounded to self and the flesh but in the spirit knowing HE is drawing me closer to HIM I give thanks. I don't mind loosing "self" cause its filled with sin and all kinds of yuck that keeps me from my BELOVED, like it says its in the Bible "no longer I that live but CHRIST who lives in me," that is the attitude and heart I want to have.

Thanks for sharing your heart here with me. I think I understand what you are saying and yet I get what Tozer is saying too and I see the benefit to what he said. :)

God Bless
mj

I know, with me, I pray often that God will place me in a situation which makes me uncomfortable or forced to choose between yielding my members to the flesh and being impatient, angry etc, or yielding to the spirit and bearing the fruit of the spirit and as He brings those situations into my life and I see how I respond I can gauge if I am in my flesh or not. YOU, can do nothing apart from Christ. Just look to Him often and daily and ask Him to live through you and to break you. He will, believe that He will do not be faithless and let Him do it. You are crucified with Christ nevertheless you live yet not you but Christ liveth in you and the life which you now live in the flesh you live by faith of the Son of God who loved you and gave His life for you. The question is...why do you think you need to be more broken? So you can be more spiritual in appearance? Is Christ not sufficient for you? Don't look to your own garments they are dung. I Love you sweet Christian may He finish the work He began in you. May you be filled with the glory of His presence daily. Remember you are COMPLETE IN HIM!

Hi! Heydave

First of all, you're observation of my comments is absolutely correct. I should not have stated them so rudely. I sincerely apologize to you for my behavior/response.

Heydave, we all have emerged from different pasts and experiences and with different needs.
Speaking for myself, I was not needing God to reveal Himself to me as a 'stern taskmaster'. I was needing a loving Father.
There are others who needed God to reveal Himself as the 'origin of all life' and still others needing to perceive Him as 'king' over their lives and circumstances.
That's what the family of God is: each different but yet a unity of the manifold wisdom of God.

So, sometimes I don't have much tolerance for those insisting that I perceive God as something other than how I perceive Him to be. This is not an excuse; it's simply a confession.

There is the age-old saying that "opposites attract" and I suspect that there is a reason for that. Most people are not seeking a partner who is a clone of themselves. Rather, they are seeking someone who compliments them; someone who possesses that which they do not possess for themselves.
So, it could be said that I was seeking the face of God to be Fatherly because that was the deepest emotional lack in my life at the time.

After reading your comments to my earlier reply to you, I realized that I must consciously make room for those who might be searching and need other attributes of God.

Again, I give you my apology.

But all that said, I would like to remind you that the primary attribute of God is self expressed in the Scripture saying: "God is love", 1John 4:8. While it may be true that we will need and discover Him in a variety of ways, we must return to the self proclaimed description of Himself. Love is the very face of God! His love is the substance of His presence embracing our inner being.

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by Heydave on 2012/6/8 7:18:19
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Hi Blayne,

Thank you for your gracious reply.
You wrote: "Heydave, we all have emerged from different pasts and experiences and with different needs.
Speaking for myself, I was not needing God to reveal Himself to me as a 'stern taskmaster'. I was needing a loving Father.
There are others who needed God to reveal Himself as the 'origin of all life' and still others needing to perceive Him as 'king' over their lives and circumstances.
That's what the family of God is: each different but yet a unity of the manifold wisdom of God."

I can relate to this. During the early years of my conversion I also needed to know this Fatherhood of God (and still do) and the emphasis of this time was on God's love. I could not understand why other (older) christians were having such a hard time! But in time God as a loving Father moved in to dicipline me when required and put me in situations that would cause me to grow up and mature. So my perspective is still of God as my loving father, but also understand in this role He is comitted to producing the character of Christ in me. I still have a way to go yet!

Blessings.

Hi! Heydave

You were very gracious to accept my apology so kindly. Thank you!

Funny thing ... when I read your reply saying, "During the early years of my conversion I also needed to know this Fatherhood of God (and still do) and the emphasis of this time was on God's love", I thought to myself, "This is exactly the opposite of how things were for me".

When I first heard the Gospel, God was introduced to me as a 'taskmaster' and I spent many years trying to fit myself into that image of Him. I read every Christian self-help book there was and spent an inordinate amount of time excavating my navel; preoccupied with dyin'-an'-killin' every perceived nuisance of self. I was an eager student of Watchman Nee theology and followed after the discipleship doctrines and anything else that seemed to hold promise of discovering the depths of God. I chased anyone/everyone who claimed to hold the secret of knowing the face of God.

All of these miserably failed me.

It took me nearly twenty years of chasing God through a labyrinth of murky teachings and pretentious preachers before I discovered that I was pursuing a God that never existed ... at least the God who was introduced to me.

The words of Scripture that spoke to me were, "Anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him".
I realized that I didn't really know God ... what He was like and how He behaved.
So, I set out to find the true face of God.
It took me about another ten years of searching to discover who God is and what He is like. How He behaves and acts. And, when I found Him, I also found myself too.
For the first time in my life, I could sit confidently on His lap and chat with Him unreservedly. He told me things which were unimaginably splendid both about Himself and about His faith in me.

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by Heydave on 2012/6/8 9:02:29
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Thank you, everyone, for your love.

I think that what was said about opposites attracting is totally true. I was raised in the church and have only ever known God as my loving Father, but have never seen Him as my fiercely holy king. I've never had that Isaiah or Abraham encounter that leaves me breathless and on my face. I was never a "bad kid" that "needed Jesus". I was raised in church and always had Him, and although my sin is just as offensive as the rest of those who were "bad kids" and I desperately need the salvation of God myself, I've never fully seen it. It's been an intellectual understanding, not a heart-piercing truth. I'm tired of that.

Thank you, brethren, for the loving rebukes. They've been refreshing and insightful, although they sting some. May God richly bless each of you!! I thank God for the wisdom he gives. I need it!!

Nate,

I haven't followed the thread but saw your original post.

I want to share this sermon with you. I think it will be very helpful:

Come up unto Me - Art Katz
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=10799&commentView=itemComments

God bless!

weeping with joy is a brokeness that is linked with indescribale emotions, utter indescibale thankfullnes can move us into waves broken joy ,,intersesion is a brokeness over souls that cause a sweet agony ,with grones and floods of tears and indescribale panting and wailing,,,praying for revivle ,is the despret thrusting of ones exsasabated holy longing, with emence weeping and wailing ,combined with indesribale pain and wellbeing mingled with emence joy that stems from the gift of faith ,,noing that god is coming ,oohhh, and the conviction of sin,, what a blend of gods love ,more lord of that brokenses ,pour out you spirit of prayer and suplication

have you knowen the powefulling workings of the holy spirit in your life

have you

will you be content with a joy that comes from the flesh that acts like spiritual joy ,,that puffs us up

have you preached the word with tears and brokenss

do you literlay tremble at times with weeping and brokeness when you read his word ,,

come to the foot of the cross and spent some time there

let us go to him out side the camp baring his reproch

let us never be satasfied ,but allways seek greater and greater manfestation of the presesnce of god

look there is the gate out side the camp where he hung

lets walk there daily ,,,,,do this in rememberence of me ,till i return

blessings

ET101,

Just wanted to say "thank you" for pointing me in the direction of Art's sermon. It was definitely a God-send! He touched on a number of thoughts that were in my head and my heart that needed to be dealt with, and God has been faithful to give me understanding.

Once again, I'm so thankful for everyone's responses! God bless you all!