Gloom and Doom

If a New Testament Christian "freaks out and frets" it's because of one reason only.
They haven't read the entire New Testament.
How much is given to eschatology.
And have they cross-referenced all of that NT eschatology to the Old Testament?

There's no way a person can not see the days we were born into if they've seriously studied their Bible.

I have no pity for the "freakers and the freters".

But I will uphold the weak in the faith, with my life.

Some of us feel honored to have GOD choose us to be born into "this generation".

Bless you.

TMK please bear with me. I am not trying to slam you.

Instead of labeling this "doom and gloom" which also gives a reaction in many that says,"Yea we need to focus on the good etc etc".

This is the carnal natural tendency of all of us to seek the easy way. I am guilty of this first and foremost.

Every one of Gods prophets apostles and teachers were labeled, "doom and gloom" by those who did not want to repent of the sin that was bring the doom and gloom message.

TMK I am not saying this is you.

However I do not like to use terms like this or "legalist" or "easy believism" etc cuz it really tempts us to divide more and more from what is scriptural. It throws the broad brush a dismiss the messnger from being heard.

"ALL the counsel of God must be proclaimed. Therefore posts and messages will contain pointing out of bad news and the need to repent so we can enjoy the good news.

TMK,
God sounds the prophetic "alarm" out of His love. It's because He knows there are MANY of His who are not ready for what's coming & the prophetic "alarmist" (as you call it) call is a trumpet. He sounds is to rattle up His people to see they aren't in the condition they think they are in. Sure, there are "so called prophet"-types along for the ride sending out fear-mongering, but there is also the truly prophetic camp of saints in the fold through whom God is blowing the shofar.
When, in Acts, a certain prophet in the Body told the church to prepare for a coming famine in Jerusalem, the church took it seriously, as directly from the Lord, & prepared. It was an act of Gods mercy. Some probably said, "oh, there's no need to worry, just trust God (basically He can send down manna if need be), & didn't take the prophetic cry real 100% seriously with sobriety followed by prompted action. They either starved, if isolated, or had to get food from those in the Body who heard the cry, trusted in the Word from heaven, took it dead serious, & followed it with the faith in action work of preparing/storing up for the soon coming famine. Who was more spiritual REALLY?
Do we need to trust in God 100% come what may? Absolutely! Do we need to grow more in Him now and come closer and shed more of the weights that hinder and entangle us? Absolutely! Do we need to truly die to self, take up our cross daily, & follow Him whithersoever He goeth? Absolutely! The fact that God continues to cry out through His prophets the way He does is de facto proof that WE ARE STILL NOT READY SPIRITUALLY for what's ahead. We aren't sober in our self-evaluation. We are so far off, as a whole and individually (most of the Body, especially in the West), that God is lovingly, kindly, mercifully sounding the trumpet louder and louder as enemy troops approach the city walls!
As far as "balance", the Body balances itself out. The eye can't say to the arm "I don't need you", nor can the feet say to the eyes "quit seeing ahead so clearly, I'm walking just fine where we stand right now". The eyes look ahead for danger in the Body's environment & where it's headed. It's what they do. I mean, how "balanced" was John the Baptist, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Amos, Joel, Ezekiel, etc. under that type analysis? They were as God made/called/gifted/empowered them to be. They in turn balanced out the rest of the Body, just as the rest of the Body balanced out them. But when they spoke, the Body listened. The true Body did. The rebellious wrote them off, got sick of listening to them, & eventually ignored them to their own peril.
How balanced was Noah? He looked like a crazy man preaching against wickedness & building a boat talking about a judgement coming FOR DECADES! They all laughed him to scorn, eventually of not immediately, but only Noah & His family were saved while the whole earth drowned in their disbelief of His message. Cause it wasn't "His" message, but God's! "As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the coming of the Son of Man." The Alarm is an act of love & mercy. "Don't despise those who Prophesy".
Love in Christ - Jeff

Good post jeffmar thank you for taking the time to write that out.

Goodpoints MrBillpro

So let's see here. I read my VOM magazine to learn about the persecuted church to pray for them. Gloom and doom. I read Martyrs Mirror to know about how saints overcame he devil in times past. Gloom and doom. I read Richard Wormbrandt's Tortured for Christ to be convicted and challenged in my faith walk with Jesus. Gloom and doom. Guess SI better classify Bonhoffe as gloom and doom.

I read the articles by Greg warning us of upcoming persecution. Gloom and doom. My goodness. Guess I got too much gloom and doom.

So to balance myself out. I will go and listen to some Joel Olsteen.

Bearmadter standing down.

Good plan, mr bill pro. I watch zero tv (not even hooked up to an antanea) so no need to change the channel when anything comes on, so im not picking up some defmon from the tv shows that you dont watch. In love, that kinda makes my whole point. No demon spirit influence at all, especially to the "immune to deception", when our "entertainment" doesn't come from the television at all.
They told Jesus He had a demon when He prophesied. They called Jeremiah's prophetic declaration that Jerusalem was about to be destroyed "blasphemy". I'm sure similar declarations were made about many throughout the ages. Some of the martyrs were killed for claims of blasphemy, demon-possession, insanity, unfit for society, etc.
I exhort everyone here to unplug your tv completely and start with a 30 day "fast" (if you will, though a true fast is from food as well as activity), and spend all that time in prayer, fasting, fellowship, and the Word of God. See if your perspective doesn't change, at least a little. It's hard to hear the Lord clearly over the tv. Even "good, safe, tv" that though it may not be outright sinful, is definitely a weight and hindrance that consumes our hearts, minds, times, etc. Your brain is less active when watching tv than sleeping. Your burn less calories when watching tv than when reading or sleeping. Those are proven, tested, scientific physiological facts proven with EKG monitors. Basically, your brain is in "auto pilot". Turn your tv off for a month and use all that time you would have otherwise wasted entertaining yourself in seeking God. I know, cause I have done it for years at a time, and only after you pull away do you see the effect it had on you, your mind/heart/time, and you don't see it at the time.
Don't cry "Legalism", please for the love of Christ. Everyone save that response and pray about what I'm saying. Everything is permissible for me, but not beneficial. No soldier gets caught up in civil affairs. Redeem the time, for the days are evil. Study to show yourself approved a workman who needeth not be ashamed, but rightly dividing the Word of truth.
This all continues to prove the point I believe the Lord is trying to make to the Western church. You think the underground Chinese church is disputing over changing the channel when "something bad comes on". Honestly, I'm not trying to rebuke anyone individually or be self-righteous. I'm trying to get us to think. We don't see ourselves clearly as we are before the Lord. That's exactly why we need so many trumpet calls of mercy to wake up and repent before its too late. Foolish virgins who fell asleep and ran out of oil is what we will find ourselves to be in that day.
All of us, if we don't stop making excuses, thinking we are beyond correction/deception, and truly make our lives living sacrifices unto God sold out to the cross, the Gospel, and the Kingdom! I'm no different. No one is. The Lord sounds the alarm because we need it and don't see it. Just like the Laodicians, we think we are rich and have need of nothing not realizing we are poor, blind, naked, and wretched. And the church (Sardis maybe?) that had a reputation of being alive, but are dead, whose works are not found complete in His eyes. We need to repent and return to our first love.
How much time did we spend in His Word and prayer when we first came to the Lord and how much tv/entertainment did we consume? We should grow more radical in our walk as we grow over the long haul, not more comfortable, complacent, and correcting those who prophesy as though we know better ("don't despise prophesy"). C'mon church! This is not directed at anyone. It's directed at everyone. I'm cheifest. Time is short and the Lord is merciful and gracious.
If we knew Hitler was taking over America tomorrow would we still be so complacent? Seriously! If prophets cried out, would we label them as "doom and gloom"? Wake up church, strengthen what remains and repent. We aren't as we ought to be. The first step to restoration is seeing ourselves clearly, admitting/confessing it honestly, repenting, and turning to the Lord with ALL OUR HEARTS. you'll never see that watching tv. That's not some old school legalistic UPC mandate of how we proove our holiness to other men, but that's just a fact that God will honor if you honor him.
Before you attack me, just consider it openly and humbly before God first. If I'm being legalistic, then so are most of the preachers on this site. Men like Art Katz, David Wilkerson, AW Tozer, Leonard Ravenhill, etc. or maybe you know/see something these men didnt how you can be just as spiritual as they (or more) by feeding your spirit tv entertainment all the time? Are we a humble people or too proud to hear and receive correction from the Lord? Please think and pray before you are quick to answer. Be quick to hear and slow to answer right? Call God's warnings whatever you want. Stick your fingers in your ears. Hide away from it in enetertainment (eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die), but know you do so at your own peril. That's not spoken in arrogance, pride, self-righteousness, or a spirit of condemnation. That's the most loving message from the merciful throne of God I can share with you right now.

It is estimated the average American spends 6 hours s day in front if theTV. The Chinerse believers spend about that much tine in the word. And that us just the warm up

Bear

bearmaster,

quote

"It is estimated the average American spends 6 hours s day in front if theTV. The Chinerse believers spend about that much tine in the word. And that us just the warm up"

Thanks for this reminder.

Years ago I was watching a K.P. Yohannan video on a training school in india. One of the things emphasised in that video was having the students just read the bible alot daily. How refreshing.

Many American semminary students are reading one commentary after another. With very little Bible.

A church that I was fellowshipping at got a new pastor fresh out of 7 years of seminary training for his denomination. He declared from the pulpit that he had read very little of the bible over the past seven years. That he had read tons of books and commentaries.
It showed.
He really had know idea what the bible teaches on the most basic of things. His head was filled with confusion and worldy plans of how to grow a church.

To your BIBLES men of God!!!!!!!

Greg knows cause he's hearing from God living a life consecrated to God, probably spending time others spend in frivolous entertainment (like watching tv) in the secret place with God hearing from heaven.

You mentioned the verse on "thinking on whatsoever things are pure,,,noble, praiseworthy, of good report,,,,,meditate on such things"

I know prophesying about the coming persecution doesn't seem to line up to that for you (it does to me, & I believe anything the Lord would have to share with the church for its own exhortation, edification, and encouragement fits that bill), but you take that prophesy as gloom and doom. I have to ask, which tv shows do you watch that meet the requirements of that same scripture? Honestly, don't answer in haste. Consider it prayerfully (as the Moderators request) before answering. Which ones?

I'm not judging you, but exhorting you. If you're not a believer, then you'll hate the truth as the truth condemns you. If you are truly a believer, you'll listen, consider, pray about what I'm saying and see if The Lord is in what is being said. Because I'm not Christ, there may be some imperfections, but God teaches us to discern so that we can chew up the staw and spit out the sticks.

I speak because I love the Body and desire that we all, me especially, walk worthy of the high calling in Christ Jesus.

"But he that prophesieth speakers to men into edification, exhortation, & comfort...but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.....FOR IF THE TRUMPET GIVES AN UNCERTAIN SOUND, WHO WILL PREPARE HIMSELF FOR BATTLE?...for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh in a tongue....wherefore brethren covet to prophesy"
(1 Corinthians 14)

That's fine. God bless you. I wasn't attacking you at all!!! Nor giving you "this mans opinions", just asking you questions based on God's Word, the one we all want to listen to. I don't always have to answer a man when he speaks to me, but I do always have to evaluate what he says if he's showing me what God's Word says, cause that's the plumb line, not what you think, what I think, what Greg thinks, etc. sometimes, we want God Himself to speak to us, when He already is. Through a woman's husband, through a child's parents, through the minister of the Gospel, & through His Word. Just food for thought.
In Christ's Love,
Jeff

What do you think Jesus was remembered for after His Crucifixion? What did He leave us with to ponder? The Gospel account, yes, to His believers. Can you count the prophetic warnings of "weeping and gnashing of teeth?, [ Five times in Matthew and Luke ] and judgment of a sure Hades to the greedy and power loving clergy.

How about the Gospel warnings of Matthew 24 and His final warning to Jerusalem itself;

" And a great multitude of the people followed Him, and women who also mourned and lamented Him.
But Jesus, turning to them, said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children.

For indeed the days are coming in which they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren, wombs that never bore, and breasts which never nursed!’ ...prophesying of the sure annihilation of the city.

Coming to pass with Titus' cruel razing in AD 70...[ an estimated 50,000 Jews, men, women, and children crucified along the roadways, and the city salted, and the remaining deported.]

Do we recount the fact that everyone of the Apostles were butchered and slain? [It is thought by some that John survived an attempt] Is this Gloom and Doom to you? It was not to the early disciples. It was Glory to them.

Should we live our lives in fear? Only in that we fear God and Him only; This is our Peace and our joy. We can only follow Him in the meantime, and hope to please Him and Honor Him.

How about this?

"What persecutions I endured!"; And out of them all the Lord delivered me."

Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution!"

ALL and WILL. This is just a fact of life, and it should not be a focus. Our focus should be on the face of our Lord Jesus! We are called to carry His redeeming and merciful heart, to our own, and to a lost and dying world, and in this following of the Lamb, there will be persecution. Stephen was our first and most awesome example.

"If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own."

Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’

If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also."..Jesus

Added to this is National Judgment, and it is aligned with this persecution, and it is of God, designated as a trial, to try who loves Him more than their own way and life. "Who do you love?"

"Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the HOUR OF TRIAL which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."

The whole world.....those who dwell on the earth.

America too.

"Amen brothertom!Just read your post lol : ) You obviously are a lot faster at typing than I am."...lindi1208

No, not faster. It is because we are on the same page!
:}=...............lol

Everytime you hear the phrase " doom and gloom," it is invariably derogatory. Typically it comes from folks who fear persecution and do not take seriously the Scriptures that assure us that those who will follow Jesus will suffer a price. Now, I am sure there are exceptions, but I have yet to run into those exceptions. May the Lord gird up His children and give them ears to hear.........bro Frank

I am nit sure about the reference. But I believe Ahaz said of Elijah this man brings me nothing but bad news. All of the false prophets were prophesying good stuff to Ahaz. At one point Ahaz called Elijah a troubler of Israel.

We see this American evangelicalism. While many preachers are promoting a happy feel good gospel, those who sound a warning of upcoming persecution are labelled as gloom and doomers. Even in this forum. I can already see a thread opened up saying how the upcoming SI conference will be gloomy.

The fact is we need to be warned. The American church has no history of persecution. God grant that more prophets arise and wake us from our slumber.

Bearmaster.

I understand how you feel MrBillPro & I do know what you're saying, but we are to spur one another on to be more like Christ - period. To follow Him with all we have according to the scriptures. To spur each other on in the inspired words of Jesus, Paul, John, Peter, James, etc. (not to even mention the OT prophets). You never answered my question, but seem to be avoiding it to tell us that we can all be different - in whatever way we choose to do (right in our own eyes). But since you brought up the scripture on thinking and meditating on pure, noble, good report, & lovely things, which tv shows have you found that encourage you in that and line up? I don't want drama, but I want you to consider things on light of scripture:
Prophetic warnings (of "doom and glOom") = Bad
Tv shows = good?
I know you do what you feel in your heart is ok (while criticizing those burning with passion and zeal to prophetically warn the Body), but don't you know the heart is deceitfully wicked above all things?
All I ask is for you to show by the scriptures (not how you feel) evidence against the numerous scriptures I and others have shared here, & tell me which tv shows are feeding your inner man. You can't criticize brothers/sisters consecrating themselves to God, wholly devoting themselves to the Word and prayer, while watching tv, and not backing up one single criticism with what God says about the matter (in His Word).
Wake up brother. God loves you and is calling you to carry a cross, consecrate yourself to Him, & love not the world, nor anything in the world. I know "what you think" & "how you feel", but in all love brother, it really doesn't mean anything. It matters not how any of us feel, what we think, etc. All that matters is how does God feel about the matter. What does God think? What does His Word say? He is no respective of persons. Me, you, Rick Warren, Joel Ostern, Leonard Ravenhill, and The Apostle Paul will all stand before God at the judgement seat. No drama. No judgement. No criticism. Love. True Love warns and exhorts. Fake love says "Relax, take it easy, it will all be OK". That's a lie from hell. Don't buy it or you'll pay for it eternally. If you could hear my heart weeping inside at the thought of all the deception, you'd know I'm not mad, proud, crazy, or foolish. Just a fool for Christ's sake by the Grace of God!!

Brother I believe that is what this upcomming conference is about. Brothers such as Greg and others being moved by the Holy Spirit to wake and warn the body in America of what is coming. Men such as David Wilkerson, Art Katz, Denny Kenniston, and others moved by the Spirit have warned the American church of what is coming. That being judgement via persecution.

I would say, out of a brotherly concern, to you and others, look at the 1040 window. Believers are dying daily and suffering for Christ. Why should America be exempt from persecution. It is going to come.

Ok. So maybe I am not moved by the Holy Spirit in posting this. But look at the New Testament. It is Spirit inspired. Jesus did promise rest and peace for those who came to him. But he also promised a cross. And the Jews of his day knew what a cross was. The Romans dotted the Judean countryside to instill Roman Justice.

We as believers, even in America, have been called to carry that same cross. God grant us the grace to do so.

Bearnaster.

Read a VOM magazine and I think you will find the answer to your question. Also pray for the persecuted and the Spirit will give you insight.

Bear.

Is it true the Mennonite church no longer reads Martyrs Mirror in their services?

Bear.

Brother I would strongly urge you to get into the scriptures. Even memorize them. For when Bibles are banned what you have in your heart may be that which sustains you in the coming persecution.

Also Jesus placed a very high premium on the word. But then he was the Word.

Bearmaster.

I didn't read all those scriptures about all of Jesus' belly laughs, but I'm sure he did laugh at times. What I do read is repeated parables, warnings, exhortations, etc. from Christ & all the apostles.

Why do we need scriptures to prove a point of what God wants?

He has exalted His Word even above His name. His Word is the lamp to our feet and light to our path. Without Gods Word on a matter, you only have whatever seems right in your own eyes. Without a Word from God, you got nothing. There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof is death. With that, I'm shaking the dust off my feet from this one specific interchange between you and I. If you see no value in "scriptures, scriptures, scriptures", I'm not sure the rest of any conversation between us could be beneficial or edifying. If you don't care what God says (that's His Word), why would you care what I or anyone else says. I urge you to "examine yourself, test yourself to see if you are in the faith", I know there's scripture again, but I feel led to share that last one with you.
God Bless,
Jeff

Brother the post was not meant to be condescending. It was written out of respect to your question. If we want to know how to prepare and endure under persecution. Look to believers in China, Iran, Eritrea, etc. Look at how believers are living in restricted nations today.

I recommended VOM as a good source. There is Barbabas Fund, Open Doors, etc. In the end it may be these precious saints who teach us to endure what is coming.

But to give a simplistic answer to your question. Not meant to be condescending. It is going to take the grace of God and the Holy Spirit to prepare us for persecution. I think Stephen serves as an excellent example. Hope this helps.

Bearmaster.

Brother I like that idea. Get me some soda poo and pop corn. Gonna watch me an uplifting Joel Olsteen sermon.

Howl with laughter.

Bear.

Staff America can have revival. But it may be against the backdrop of persecution. Or the persecution nay bring revival. Look at China and Iran. They are having both persecution and revival. Or is it revival and persecution? Anyway both events are occurring side by side.

Bearmaster off to pop corn and pop.

Our response should be one of sobriety, of self-examination, of considering these preciously martyred saints & contemplating our own lives in such circumstances were it to be us. It should spur us on to follow Him wholeheartedly. It should help us see that if they gave up their lives, surely we can give up wasting our lives watching nonsense on tv, taking vacation after vacation, playing video games, etc., etc. we should look at what Jesus said about all men hating you, persecution for all who love godly lives in Christ, carrying our cross daily enduring the scorn, etc . & ask: is that my me? Is that my life? Is that my experience? If not, why? Am I special or different? Did Jesus mean everyone but me, or everyone but Americans? Why the disconnect? Am I disconnected and don't realize it?

"Therefore, seeing we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off every weight/hindrance, and the sin that so easily besets us, & let us run with patience the race that is set before us. Looking into Jesus, the author & finisher of our faith who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning the shame, & is set down at Gods right hand. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ur be wearied & faint in your minds. You have not resisted into the shedding of your blood, striving against sin"
Hebrews 12:1-4

And then he goes into chastisement & rebuke from God which all true sons
Get as a show of love, sons hip, & correction. That's not "get your popcorn ready" & lay back in a bed of ease happy talk either, but it's real. It's God Word. And it's true eternally regardless of how anyone takes it. Gods not moved by our opinions of His Word, amen?

I've seen hecklers in evangelism be the most radically affected later and changed. I hope that's you as you minimize God's Word and make silly jokes constantly in the face of deep, eternal, important truths the Lord is pressing on His Body right now. You would be rebuked if not excommunicated from much of the church abroad and historically for such words. For out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. I would be careful with the jokes and folly on a matter God Himself is laying on the church.

"Preach the Gospel, & when you have to use words" basically right? Good old Saint Augustine. Our dear Catholic "saint" who baptized cats. I have always hated that saying. It issues from the flesh of men's hearts, not the heart of God.

If what scripture says is important to us (Gods opinion on the matter), we know that we are called to "PREACH THE WORD". Greek for Preach means to declare a proclamation from ones mouth, not just by ones lifestyle (I call that fairy-tale "osmosis preaching"). Be ready in season and put of season to give a defense of the hope...,correct, rebuke, exhort,,,,,,,all by preaching Gods Word, not by osmosis. Jesus preached . Jesus fought the devil with scripture.

We are called to put on the full armor of God to stand which includes the sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God, feet ready to spread the Godpel of peace (that doesn't mean running up to people and letting them see how holy you look, but preaching Gods Word which alone is able to save), shield of faith ("Faith comes by HEARING the Word of God), etc. still have to come in the gate and take the narrow way. We can't make this thing up (in our Sunday meetings at our "churches" no less). This whole thread is proof of why this thread is so needed. We are drunk on American Modern Churchianity. Hard to think soberly when you're drunk. Gotta sober up first, and be vigilant, for our enemy, the devil (& his lying seducing spirits preaching doctrines of devils) prowl around as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. All the while he and his ministers masquerading as an angel of light. There's too much carnal thinking and not enough preaching/believing the uncompromising Word of God. WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!

"Preach the Gospel, & when you have to use words" basically right? Good old Saint Augustine. Our dear Catholic "saint" who baptized cats. I have always hated that saying. It issues from the flesh of men's hearts, not the heart of God.

If what scripture says is important to us (Gods opinion on the matter), we know that we are called to "PREACH THE WORD". Greek for Preach means to declare a proclamation from ones mouth, not just by ones lifestyle (I call that fairy-tale "osmosis preaching"). Be ready in season and put of season to give a defense of the hope...,correct, rebuke, exhort,,,,,,,all by preaching Gods Word, not by osmosis. Jesus preached . Jesus fought the devil with scripture.

We are called to put on the full armor of God to stand which includes the sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God, feet ready to spread the Godpel of peace (that doesn't mean running up to people and letting them see how holy you look, but preaching Gods Word which alone is able to save), shield of faith ("Faith comes by HEARING the Word of God), etc. still have to come in the gate and take the narrow way. We can't make this thing up (in our Sunday meetings at our "churches" no less). This whole thread is proof of why this thread is so needed. We are drunk on American Modern Churchianity. Hard to think soberly when you're drunk. Gotta sober up first, and be vigilant, for our enemy, the devil (& his lying seducing spirits preaching doctrines of devils) prowl around as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. All the while he and his ministers masquerading as an angel of light. There's too much carnal thinking and not enough preaching/believing the uncompromising Word of God. WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry for the repeat. Maybe the problem with those "great non-preaching" fellows you know is who the four preachers they listen to on Sinday and the "messages" they preach. If preaching is so bad, then why do those same men listen to other men PREACH? The insanity of that argument is illogical on its face

The wonderful thing about us Christians is that we love our gloom and doom. We lather it up, spread it around and hope that more people can get on board our gloom and doom machine.

"WAKE UP, REPENT, GOD HAS LEFT THE BUILDING".

Oh don't get me wrong, there is certainly a time and a place for all of this,, most certainly, but I have noticed over the years there are two kinds of watchmen, those that really care about the flock and those that are self righteous. The former is usually few and far between, the latter are everywhere.

The ones that are telling us to WAKE UP usually have a closet full of sins and find it easier to point at everyone else. Oh, there really are those that care for the soul and has a life that has nothing in the closet, they are as I said before, few and far between. I think Brother Tom is one of those few and JiG (though we sometimes don't get along) but I appreciate her stand on things. There are a few others here that I could name, but sufficient to say that God has His people where they are at for a reason and it will take the work of the Holy Ghost to "wake us up" from our lethargy.

After all, all the virgins were awake at midnight when the cry went forth to meet the bridegroom, oil or no oil, they were awake. But the sad thing was they didn't have enough to carry on the journey through the rest of the night.

If anything, we are awake, but do we have enough oil?

Let me be the first to say, I do not.

HI Staff,

To say that my comments were derogatory is a wee bit immature as that was the word that I used to describe the term " doom and gloom." In no way can this phrase be attributed to anything positive unless you can use it in a sentence that is positive? So, if one is going to use negative terms in regard to posts that they do not like, they should expect some push-back. As for your forgiving me staff, cmon, if you want to forgive me for calling people out who use the negative phrase " doom and gloom,' well, go ahead, knock yourself out :).......bro Frank

After all, all the virgins were awake at midnight when the "cry went forth to meet the bridegroom, oil or no oil, they were awake. But the sad thing was they didn't have enough to carry on the journey through the rest of the night.

If anything, we are awake, but do we have enough oil?

Let me be the first to say, I do not."...Approved

Let me be the second to say; "I do not."...and in this, I am ashamed. I refuse the cross that would sanctify me, over and over. I take two steps forward, and three steps back.

The only quality I have is my neediness and ability to persevere; I get back up again and cry for mercy. My favorite scripture is; "It is not he who runs, or is it he who wills, but God who shows mercy."

To be ready for me, is to be delivered from this body of death, and when this happens I will be free and ready...for that day....and then again until the next, when I must be slain again. Some days, I just throw my cross down, and wallow in terminal loneliness.

"Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."

Please pray for me, Brothertom. I have had revelation, but revelation does not make one mature, or willing to obey. I do want to make it, and be prepared for that day, as my body, my church, worldwide.

Thanks Approved for the reality check.

You all are giving me Hope today of that unity that I kept on about this year. I feel it on this thread. I think it's the thread and this topic of what we may all go through. Reality sinking in.
Honesty seems to be the key too on here. And lots of prayer.
Praying till we're praying in the Spirit is the oil rig and the Light is The Word of GOD.
Plenty of Alone time with Him.
Loving Him more than we love ourselves - willing to die for each other, literally - the path that He took.
Just be 'willing' is all He's asked.
Thank you. Today was a blessed day, reading your posts.
Thank you, men of GOD!

I am not all the way to the life I in Christ my Spirit earnestly desires to walk completely unhindered by the flesh, not ever looking back, not stumbling in word or deed, etc., but by the grace of God, I'm getting closer. I'm seeing Him work miracles in my life/walk again as I cast off the restraining hindrances, confess my faults to the brethren in our fellowship, lay down my life and take ip His cross daily, etc. he is doing a work in me and all the credit is His. I know what's in me (apart from Christ) & it ain't pretty.
I have seen the Lord do so much as He has called me lately to such a life of death which the cross does. The closer I get to Him, the more I see what a wretched man I am and what a gracious, loving, & beautiful Lord He is!! I I just want to be able to say, "Not that I have already attained it, but this one thing I do, forgetting what's behind & straining ahead for the high calling of God in Christ Jesus Our Lord"
Blessings in Him,
Jeff

Francis or Augustine, whomever it was, it was a cat-baptizing Catholic. That's my point. I don't like the saying because it is used as an excuse not to preach, not to share the Word of God, which alone is "living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, able to discern the intents of the heart and even divide soul and spirit, joints and marrow."
What Paul said is true: whatever you do, do it as unto the Lord. We should. I don't have a problem with that. I agree and desire to do the same. Problem is when people somehow make the jump that we should do this ONLY, IN PLACE of preaching the Word, being a witness, sharing the scriptures, etc., when Paul instructs us to do just that in at least a dozen scriptures and the apostles give that example in scripture everywhere they go, even after just being beaten, imprisoned, stoned, etc.
If I come across as "mad" because I just share the scriptures on a subject (especially on the subject of preaching vs. avoiding the scriptures), it's not an accurate portrayal of my heart that can't TRULY be known through an Internet forum thread.
But, if I seem mad at the idea of "just take it easy, don't be so super-spiritual, don't worry all the time about what the scriptures say about a matter, it's because I am MAD. By MAD, not any man, but at the devil and his spirits with power over the air to deceive people with seducing doctrines of devils. Not trying to sound super-spiritual, just being real with you.
My heart breaks as I see something coming and much of the confessing church not ready (some believers who are not awake in the light of the truth, and obviously the false converts). It's not some "doom and gloom" fear-mongering to get people anxious and fearful. It's a cry from the Heart of the Father to look clearly in the mirror (of His Word) & see yourselves clearly and know that you are not ready, so THAT YOU CAN REPENT, AND RETURN TO THE LORD WITH ALL OF YOUR HEART!
It's not a negative message, or God, His Word, His Prophets from Genesis to Acts (to today) are all Negative in large part. It's not negative. Sitting down with a child at "progress report" time and talking to them seriously about a failing grade is not negative. It's actually VERY positive. It takes the opportunity to lovingly warn and redirect the child before the final grade is set into stone as failing. Only the rebellious at that point blame the teacher, the school, and the principal for the child's failings.
That's the trappings of our modern society's "self-esteem", every child should get a trophy (win or lose), etc. mentality. David Wilkerson has a message I heard once, as did Art Katz, and Leonard Ravenhill on a generation unable to receive correction from ministers of God's Word. the true minister of God's Word is not wasting tons of time in frivolous entertainment and tons of worldly distractions, but in the ministry of prayer, the Word of God, and caring for the Body. He is walking with the Lord and being used in whatever facet/gifts the Lord ordains.
I have no closet full of skeletons of porn, beating my wife/children, etc. I do see my sinfulness that remains more and more each day in the light of God's Word & presence and know apart from Christ I am the worst kind of vile sinner on the planet. That's not Hyperbole. That's a fact!
Anyways, the scriptures can't just be tossed aside when inconvenient. It breaks my heart to see/hear such things/thoughts present among those who name the Name of Christ. It shows me confirmation of what the Lord has already shown me, and so many others, we are not ready. Don't fear circumstances coming. Just repent and return to the Lord with all of your heart. Examine yourselves, test yourselves (in light of God's Word) to see if you are in the faith. Because you see, the most fearful experience anyone could ever have is to hear the Lord say, "Depart from me, I never knew you. Cast him into the lake of fire." don't fear what man can do to you, but rather fear Him that can cast your body into hell. Yes, fear Him. If you just write that scripture off, or call that fear-mongering, your problem is with God (& His Word), not me, and I really don't know what else to do but warn you to wake up and buy some oil before your clock expires and it's too late.
This is all said in a spirit of love, God as my witness.

However, what I see in this book is VICTORY! Victory over gloom and doom. Hey! could a body appreciate the glory of the LORD unless you have witnessed the awfulness of the result of sin? I do not believe Adam or Eve had any clue how life would be different after sin before they succumbed to it.

Amen ginnyrose!

Re 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Re 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
(KJV)

If we be honest with ourselves, persecution and martyrdom is offensive. I mean it is offensive to the N. American evangelical. Even to some in this forum. To those who follow the Lamb in China, Eritrea, N. Korea, or Eritrea persecution and suffering are a normal way to follow Christ. These believers would not know what it is to follow Christ without suffering. They cannot conceive of a life of ease as we have it here in America. To them this thread would seem awfully strange about gloom and doom.

In China believers do not even talk about persecution being in Christ. The Chinese believers call it identification. This is identification in the sufferings of Christ. This is their understanding of the cross of Christ. This is their understanding if picking up their cross o follow Jesus

But oh how we howl at the thought of a cross. How we cry gloom and doom at the thought of persecution. I am an American Christian. I will not be persecuted. Sermon Index should nit be sosting this gloomy stuff on persecution.

Saints may I say in love it is time for a reality check. We, American Christians, are the ones out of step with the rest of the world. The American church is in a bubble. American style Christianity is not New Testament Christianity. I say again, American style Christianity, is mot Biblical.

Brothers and sisters, in Eritrea or China, have more understanding of following Jesus than we in America do. They have the gospel. We don't. There's is gospel of sacrifice. Ours is a gospel of cheap grace. Our gospel has no price to pay.

Saints we need to face the reality that God gas spewed out the American church and found it lacking. The center of Christianity has shifted to the 1040 window. These are the saints that God is pleased with. These are the saints that God is using. And they gladly pay the price forme loving Jesus.

I do believe God has a remnant in N. America. Much like the church in Sardis. There will be a few who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with Jesus dressed in white. They will be a holy, revived remnant. They will be a persecuted remnant. But they will be the true bride of Jesus. The question is. Will you be part of that remnant? Will I be part of that remnant?

Posted by Bearmaster.

Well said brother bear.

The centre of Christianity has shifted to the 1040 window.

It's not like it was in the Old Testament where God could leave a building or place, today He lives in men and women. He's made a covenant of grace with them that He would never leave them nor forsake them. Yes, the North American Churches have gone haywire, but God's people have not. Let those Churches go crazy if they like, Christianity does well in the midst of chaos, in the midst of sin and degradation, in the midst of troubles, where iniquity is abounding Christ much more abounds.

Christianity shines brighter when it gets really dark, it doesn't leave because things are getting worse, it stays because people need it more than ever before. The problem is folks is that while we are fighting amongst ourselves on who is right and who is wrong, sinners are dying without hearing the gospel.

They really want the simple gospel. They don't want religion and airs and hypocrisies, that is all they are seeing today on Television. And can we blame them? I wouldn't want nothing to do with God either if that is what Christianity is all about.

But God has a people that He is grooming that have a message from Him, that God so loves this world that He gave His only begotten Son and that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

He SOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooo loves this world. We think that God is angry with it, we forget that Christ died on the cross and the wrath of God was taken out on the Son. He bore our sorrow and grief when He died.

God is angry with the wicked, those who hide the truth in unrighteousness. They know the way but refuse to enter in and they hinder anyone else from going in as well, these people are wicked people and it's these people that God is angry with every day. These are not your Saddam Hussiens of the world, these are religious leaders within Christianity itself who know but don't heed.

We read the news and all we see is the bad,, but we need to back up and see a little differently. In Elijah's day, Jezebel ruled the nest. She allowed homosexuals to live freely, it was sex party heaven for the mind that was on evil continually, but out of all that Elijah thought that he was the only one left and God told him that He had reserved 7,000 men who did not bow their knee to Baal. This was goodnews, could we safely say that in this country that God has reserved 7 million or maybe even 700 million worldwide who have not bowed their knee to Baal?

Brother respectfully do you ready think American Christianity has the power of China or Iran. We read believers in India doing signs and wonders and our American churches won't acknowledge the Holy Spirit. We read of whole mosque turning to Christ in Africa. And American churches are saying its alright to worship with Moslems. Persecuted believers will spend hours a day reading the word. While we debate which is the one pure translation. The American church is filthy rich beyond anyone's wildest dreams. Yet poor garbage dump churches have power to say n the name of Jesus get up and walk.

Brother I go back to my original statement. God had judged the American church and found it lacking. It will br the 1040 saints who will complete the great commission. For sure there is a remnant in America. But the American church is not the sending church it once was. As a matter of fact third world countries are now sending missionaries over to Americs. One wonders what that says for the state of the American church.

Bearmaster.

I thought of this video when I initially read this thread:

You're Changing by David Wilkerson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4QpHrVN0hE

It will be the 1040 saints who will complete the great commission.

I see more than just a handful here that will do great things in North America, great and mighty things that will shake the foundations, not just a mere remnant. There are more than we think.

I respect your thoughts brother, God bless

Staff writes.........

"You then went on to describe on this thread that anyone that didnt have your view was basically ignorant of the bible"

Staff, are you just making this up as you go along??? Where did I say that anyone who did not hold my view of the Bible was ignorant? Sheesh , just a plain old lie. I was pointing out that the term " doom and gloom," has always been used as a derogatory remark on people of a certain view. I stand by that. I know people from all different views on escatology, but they dont use that phrase because it is considered derogatory. There is no point in using a phrase to critisize certain recent posts ( none of which have been mine) and then run away from the words used or the point that is being made. So, perhaps we can agree, " doom and gloom" is a derogatory term? That has been my sole point. To turn around and then say that I am being deraogatory by saying that it is derogatory is immature, I stand by that...........bro Frank

I'm having a difficult time understanding some views.

One would have to rip The Revelation and several other chpts just from their New Testament to avoid hearing anything negative about the future.

Do you folks watch TV at all?

I'm wondering if doing that may be burning people out more than these other people posting that they believe we're living in the last days.

Throw the TVs and DVD movies out - just read His Word and see how you feel in a week or two, is my suggestion.

Jesus didn't make sure all of that was in there for us to ignore any part of it, but it appears that some are.

I'd like to be wrong on that.

Good quotes from Mozart, ArtB.

Peace on the inside!

I am amazed at the number of replies on this thread. I think Greg opened up a can of worms with a few of his threads. Anyway, this Scripture came to mind when it comes to the attitude we should have about persecution. Obvioulsy there are many views as this thread has expressed but what did Jesus say about persecution?

Mat 5:11-12 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. (12) Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

We are actually commanded to rejoice. Now, did the Apostles take this literally...........

Act 5:40-41 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. (41) And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

And we see that the apotles rejoiced after being beaten and reviled for the sake of Jesus. So, no matter if one sees persecution coming in an end time scenario or just another wave of persecution, it is clear how we should handle it. And so it is good to ask ourselves the question " would we have the same Spirit in us?" Could we see ourselves rejoicing to suffer for the cause of Christ?. The battles are won prior to the battle and they are won in prayer as we see Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane..............bro Frank

Also, the iraqi brother is under persecution and is obviously the real deal sharing how Christ has kept/strengthened them in it. You see, the need for this message in America is for those who need to be shocked awake. We are not in the same spiritual shape and somehow we don't even see it. If you convert in Iran, Egypt, Eritrea, The Congo, etc., you pretty much know that a man/woman has "counted the cost" ahead of coming to Christ cause you know that, in America, it doesn't even affect our entertainment time, much less potentially cost us our life. My heart, as the Lord has moved me, has been to call those who name the Name of Cheist to wake up. Those who have ears will hear what the Spirit of God is saying to the American church. Those who don't want to hear from the Lord or anyone else will stick their fingers in their ears, slide into the easy chair, & live out a false reality which numbs the mind and desensitized the Spirit. In love, you can take that for what it's worth. When the Word of God is even ignored, minimized, just dang near scoffed at, that's when you know the Great Apostacy isn't coming-----it's here in full fledge. Don't tell me how unloving that is. Save that rhetoric. If I didn't love those called by Hos name, I woulda ducked out completely 45 threads and 50 scriptures ago. This is no longer beneficial, so I'm going to excuse myself from the remainder of this thread. Fact is, whether you like it or not & whether you want to focus on it or not, when persecution comes, it purify and divide. "There must be divisions/heresies among you, to show which ones are approved from among you", The Apostle Paul, 1 Corinthians 11:19

It is true that we are never to worry, but we are to consider the signs of the times, to prepare our hearts, & to follow the Lord's leading. When certain prophets in Acts 11:28-29, including Agabus stood up and prophesied that a famine was coming over the land, the apostles didn't sit around and say, "oh, just go back to the coliseum & watch some great tragedies & comedies, it will all be OK." Nor did they say, "oh, that crowd with all the doom and gloom stuff again. Don't they know we are not to worry about tomorrow and just focus on the joy of the Lord today?" nor did they sit around, fret, worry, & chew their fingernails down to nothing. What did they do? The Word of God says they sent preparations of food down to Jerusalem to sustain the church through this time. They heard, they believed (cause they discerned by the same Holy Spirit it was from God & not man), they prepared, & they acted in faith for the care of the Body. That should be our response. To make preparations. To take inventory now and make sure we have what it takes to endure a "famine in the land of hearing the Word of God." maybe that means making some physical preparations (ask the Lord individually), but regardless that definitely means making spiritual preparations and taking an honest evaluation now of your life. Your time. Your fruitfulness. Etc. do we know better than the first century church in the book of Acts recorded in God's Word? Have we "evolved" to be more spiritual than they, all the while taking it easy in our easy chair watching tv and scoffing at prophetic warnings? No saints. We should be a more discerning people than that. Are we? Are you?

TMK wrote: "And that is another reason I cringe at some "doom and gloom" posts.. because sometimes there seems to be a certain glee in talking about how bad things are going to get and a seeming hope that things WILL get really really bad really soon."

This statement is way over the top and untruthful in a rather obscene way.

SI has been nothing but encouragement and it's only since the announcement of the upcoming Conference that there have been more threads on persecution.

Persecution is going on to our Brothers and Sisters in countless places world-wide - but we can't discuss the possibility of going through it ourselves.

Persecution has been the history of the Church since the First Church but we dare not bring it up regarding ourselves?

This tells me a lot of how people read their New Testaments and how much they care about their brothers and sisters that Are Being persecuted presently and the lack of care for those that need to give some thought to this topic, as it's never entered their minds. Look at the majority of Churches and 'christians' in this country and tell me if they could handle being made "uncomfortable" nonetheless persecuted.

What I quoted above is at the heart of this thread and it's an insult to anyone that's studied His Word or Church History and Current Events.

The very few threads of late on this topic should NOT have upset anyone that's Biblically Literate, that cares in the least about others being persecuted world-wide and are willing to give all for HIM, as they have.

The few that are siding with this OP and the other posts that are similar are out of touch with what True Christianity has Always been about.

I suspect that the few had not counted the cost when they took on His Name - 'Christ'ian. Of that I'm almost 100% sure.
That when these 'got saved' - that persecution and suffering the loss of all things or martyrdom was not what they had even given thought, was a possiblity.

Wurmbrand and Corrie Ten Boom and many others would have loved to have come to the coming Conference and share their books and stories to prepare us. In fact, that WAS their ministry to The Church - THIS TOPIC.

I'm surprised, sickened and embarrassed by these reactions to the recent threads in question and insulted for the main body here by this quote above.

Let's just end this thread and allow others to communicate on the FEW threads already up on persecution and the such.
The opposers can just not open those threads and go to other threads - but we are looking forward to the Truths coming from this upcoming Conference and to hear from those others that know what they're talking about on this topic.

.

This thread is getting more illogical as it goes on.

Why is This Topic being categorized as "PROPHESYING"?

"ALL who live Godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution".

THAT's the foundation of The Church - not anyone here prophesying.

Jesus said - "Count the Cost".

What is 'The Cost' to you people? ... Just giving up a few outward actions but living life as usual otherwise?

I say - these are Biblically Malnutritioned - period.

They pick and choose those portions of Scripture that they LIKE and keeps them contented and throw out the other ONE-THIRD of HIS WORD.

Confirms that this coming conference is the need of the hour, now.

Imagine you see s young convert who has just come to Jesus. They have been gloriously converted. Their faces are full if joy. Then that evangelist who shared Christ with them. Saw that person come to Christ. Says to the young convert. Stay true to Jesus with all of your heart. Why we would affirm that. Then the evangelist says it is through many hardships, trials, and tribulations you must enter the kingdom God. For Jesus has called you to suffer for him. Immediately you say wait a minute. You are discouraging this new convert. You are speaking gloom to them. You are discouraging them. Tell them about the joy of following Jesus. Like lay off of the persecution and martyrdom stuff.

Believe it or not this was exactly how Paul and Barnabas encouraged the new converts in the early church. Check out Acts 14:22-22.

Bearmaster.

rbanks, did you not read what I quoted at the top of this last page?

I only view Two forums - the other one is approx 50% unsaved and 50% saved and they KNOW what's coming.

The majority of Christians don't seem to - with few exceptions.

If you can bear the way that unsaved folks speak and still have a burden for their salvation - I'd recommend a reality check, every so often, to just read the Titles of their threads, without even opening the threads to read them.

One could just read the titles of the world-wide News / Current Events and see where we're headed. They're posting all of the News of late, and yes I do recommend that forum - because these unsaved and saved people keep up with the News that's not being given on television or radio and it's a true wake-up call for those that desire to be waken up to the reality of things .... though I know the ostrich mentality quite well and those are those that will be caught unaware and unprepared spiritually. And those that are living uninformed of world events are those that I have a burden for. They did not count on living in this present evil world when they got 'saved'. Their pastors and teachers did not prepare them for the things that we're hearing of late and some never "counted the cost".

Those are the ones that we should have a burden for.

Then the evangelist says it is through many hardships, trials, and tribulations you must enter the kingdom God.

For Jesus has called you to suffer for him. Immediately you say wait a minute.

" You are discouraging this new convert. You are speaking gloom to them. You are discouraging them. Tell them about the joy of following Jesus. Like lay off of the persecution and martyrdom stuff."Bearmaster.

I just read about an evangelist who did the very same thing warning his first followers on their very first Mission trip. Sounds like the very same type of radical you are talking about.

"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

But beware of men: for THEY WILL deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

And YOU SHALL be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.

But WHEN they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

And the brother SHALL deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children SHALL rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to DEATH.

And ye SHALL BE HATED of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

But WHEN THEY PERSECUTE YOU in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.

It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the MASTER of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call THEM of his household?

Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

And fear not them which KILL the body, but are not able to KILL the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[Fear Jesus]

Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

But whosoever shall DENY me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a SWORD.

For I AM COME to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man's foes SHALL be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

39 He that findeth his life SHALL lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me."..............

This of course was Jesus speaking as He sent out the Apostles on their first Missionary trip, and, of course, everything He warned about came to pass; as it is today.

We are all being funneled into deeper fire, and it is this alone that will prepare us. Are we willing to lose our lives, to gain His?

"To be or not to be, that is the question?"

Amen Brothertom............bro Frank

Brother Tom. I just heard about a young Korean sister. She is 26 years old. She had completed a discipleship program at a YWAM base. She burns with a desire to take the gospel to N. Korea.

Now I am sure this sister knows the dangers that await her.. She probably knows the average life expectancy of an evangelist in that country is about three months. Yet her heart is consumed to see the light of Christ penetrate the darkness of N. Korea. Not someone given to doom and gloom.

Bearmaster.

Pentecost occurred 50 days after Passover, the Crucifixion of Christ; AD 33. Jesus Himself walked on Earth for 40 of those days, instructing many, and was bodily Resurrected in the presence of over 500 disciples into Heaven. This must have made the mere 10 day wait at the upper room very exciting, they had been with the one who was dead but lives forevermore.

Titus, the Roman general then marched in, with four Roman Legions, putting down a Jewish revolt. The rebellion proved costly to Jerusalem in AD 70: In the Destruction of Jerusalem 1,100,000 Jews were killed and 97,000 taken into slavery and captivity.

There is much evidence that the Jerusalem church were pondering ideas just like we are here, in this gloom and doom thread. We are talking about 37 years, in our time line Pentecost occurred in 1975.

But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. " (History of the Church 3:5:3)

"The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella.

Here those that believed in Christ, having removed from Jerusalem, as if holy men had entirely abandoned the royal city itself, and the whole land of Judea; the divine justice, for their crimes against Christ and his apostles finally overtook them, totally destroying the whole generation of these evildoers form the earth. (Eusebius, 3:5.).....[http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/p/pella-flight.html

It seems that the Spirit was speaking to the church as a whole, and possibly 50,000 to 100,000 saints fled the city before Titus entered, being warned. Some archives insist that an angel of God appeared and spoke in a heavenly vision, others speak of prophetic utterances warning.

The fact remains that many Christians took heed, and as the fled persecution, were delivered. 37 years is not so long to me. It happened, as several very early church fathers testify, and is worthy of consideration in the light of this thread.

Even the Catholic Church is aware of a future persecution of Americans. I was doing a search for past persecutions in American history and I came across this interesting thought. Don't get carried away with the margin, I agree with none of it, however this article is interesting.

http://catholicknight.blogspot.ca/2011/11/vatican-official-sees-persecution-of.html

Well let me be the first to say that I don't know how well I would stand up to persecution. I have taken a lot of beatings before and endured it. I found that by letting the person do whatever it was needed to get their anger out of their system to use me as a punching bag and when I didn't kick back they stopped. It's been a long time since those days and I have gotten soft in my old age (45).

The thought of torture is terrifying. Being shot or hanged is a mercy killing, it's quick and doesn't last long. But to be tortured and kept alive is beyond my comprehension. God knows that I might cave in to the pressure. Why would He put someone through such rigorous testing if they will in the end deny Him?

That is my greatest fear, will I deny my Lord, I hope and pray that I will not.

It's valiant to be able to throw yourself in front of a moving train if it meant to save others, and I hope that I would. Richard Wumbrand withstood such terrible things, even to the place of being delirious and having almost completely forgot about God if it wasn't for God bringing him the scriptures to his mind. Even Watchman Nee having been put through such rigorous brain washings at the end scribbled on a piece of paper saying, "I still believe that Jesus is the Son of God". I don't believe for a moment that he straightened up his backbone as some hero of the faith, I think the man was totally weakened by the constant harassments and out of that weakened state made his final declaration before leaving this world that with all that brain washing foolishness they failed in their attempt to change this man of God.

I am weak but thou art strong.

1Pe 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

From A.T. Robertson's [Greek] Word Pictures:

"Resteth upon you" (eph' hēmas anapauetai). Quotation from Isaiah 11:2. Present middle indicative of anapauō, to give rest, refresh (Matt 11:28). “He rests upon the Christian as the Shechinah rested upon the tabernacle” (Bigg). Cf. 1Pet 1:8"

Basically rbanks, you're telling me that your a "cessationist"? In your mind, have All the gifts and offices except "Senior/Associate/Youth Pastor" (not in the Bible) somehow ceased to exist? Is it that By your estimation there may be only 5 real prophets in the whole world now, or none cause you don't believe God raises them up at all anymore? Yes, there are tons of false prophets speaking from the belly of their own flesh. There are tons of so-called wanna be prophets. Who sent them? The enemy. Why? So people would see the counterfeit and totally throw out the baby with the bath water. The enemy's plan works if you just toss it all out based on the counterfeit.
You never see anyone counterfeit manure. Or counterfeit bread. They are of little value in the first place. Counterfeiters counterfeit real things that have great value like hundred dollar bills and gold. Never see counterfeit pennies! Why do that? More trouble than it's worth! The devil gets people's flesh to counterfeit gold cause it's worth something when genuine.
I would recommend you look up an article from John Piper about "OT prophets vs NT prophets." Also, Art Katz has lots of REALLY good sermons on the True NT Prophetic Ministry. Look up "Prophets", "Prophetic", "True..." etc. in Katz' sermon listings. Some real gems.
Also, your evaluation of NT prophets in Acts has some things you haven't considered. For one thing, it says in I Corinthians 13, "Now we see in part". NT Prophetic ministry isn't the same as OT prophets. In fact, not even All OT Prophet accounts were of "someone saying something would come to pass and it did right/soon after". Daniel saw things that still haven't been fulfilled. How long did Noah prophesy & build that boat? I don't remember exactly, but I know it was at least 40 years (I think it was actually longer). David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and many others prophesied about the coming Messiah that didn't get fulfilled for hundreds of years after. Many others like Amos, Joel, etc. had dual layered fulfillment prophesies (one fulfillment years later in Israel AND a second fulfillment where the natural type was fulfilled in a spiritual reality in the last days concerning the church, spiritual Israel).
In addition to these examples and many more, consider Jesus' prophesying over Jerusalem about its downfall that didn't come until decades later. Also, even the story I mentioned earlier about the prophesying in Acts of a famine: you're ASSUMING this was like prophesied one day and fulfilled the next. If we read God's Word like this, we will err greatly. The Bible is not a list of events that happened on consecutive minute, hour, & day chronological time schedules. There are many places in scripture where years, even decades, elapse between one verse to the very next one.
Besides, Art Katz saw a great Holocaust coming ahead for years and died never seeing it come to pass. I consider Art a true prophet. David Wilkerson saw a vision of coming catastrophe in glimpses as far back as the 70's, & I certainly don't consider David a false prophet. The burden came so strong again a few years later he felt like it could come tomorrow. I know many who the Lord burdened the same way. I don't know where you get your ideas for what classifies modern prophets, but in love, it's not the Bible, cause there's no support for what you stated.
We need Gods Word to be our guide. I have love for the Body, and I challenge you to prove what you assumed of prophets from scripture. You can't cause such statements are not in there. Art Katz' teachings on prophets from Gods Word are powerful. He can preach/teach/explain it better than I ever could. God Bless

Staff - Who slandered someone else? Did I miss something? Are you directing that to me? Not agreeing with someone assertions, when they are not Biblical, & showing them the scriptures is not slander. "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another." If every thought of correctively teaching what the Bible says is somehow considered "slander", then what's the point of the forum thread discussion? If an error in declaring something as Biblical is "public", so then should be the corrective teaching from the Word of God, in love. If not, error just lies out there publicly, on the Internet for all to see, & many to misunderstand God's Word on a matter, while a man's point of view on a matter gets a complicit ability to stand unchallenged? Maybe I missed something? This is all said/done in love so that God's Word/Truth is shown to light the way for the young/weak in faith, & to help steer the Body back onto the path pressing forward towards the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
If you've ever read/seen Pilgrim's Progress, too many of us are willing to get do close to the celestial city (the kingdom of heaven) & lie on the enchanted ground. It's deceptive. It's very hard to get back up once you lay down. We are "drugged" by our own culture, entertainment, & a "Gospel" of ease. Or, like the last poor soul who goes the path his own way, without having entered through the gate, & without a certificate, we end up at the gates of the kingdom only to be called a thief and a robber, not having entrance and being cast asunder.
My heart is not to slander, to argue, or to prove I'm right in prideful stubborn arrogance. My heart is to preach the truth and share the Word of God with those who stop short of the Gospel of the Kingdom God outlines in His Word! If a public statement on a public forum thread is above correction, above Biblical comparison, above scrutiny (even "the spirits of the prophets are subjects to the prophets,,,,let the prophets discern the prophecy,,,"), then it should never be stated publicly on the first place. If I can tell everyone what I think, how I see it, etc. & no one can just reply and show me what the Word of God says, I can be trying to protect my own self, rather than wanting to get down to what's noble, & true, & pure, as outlined only in God's Word, not man's opinions.
In Christ's Love,
Jeff

Also, Slander by definition has as its intent to defame, to make others look bad, etc. to disagree is not to slander. I found an article on the net on the Biblical definition of slander. It talks of gossip, tale bearing, seeking to defame ones character intentionally to make oneself look better, etc. just look at the beginning portion of the PDF which outlines the Bible's definition of Slander and tell me who did any of that and where. Please be specific and use the Biblical texts as proof so we can all see/understand what Biblical Slander is/isn't. God Bless

http://www.godsacres.org/tract.Slander.pdf