Perhaps this has already been covered on SI I think this started a year ago or so. there was also a report about it on CBN last year. I am just now getting this info.
(EDIT correction, Thanks to evangeltami)
http://glowtorch.org/Home/ManchesterChurchesMininstertoDrugAddicts/tabid/3145/Default.aspx
Yes. This is an encouraging sign from the Lord. May we continue to pray for revival in America and beyond.
Here is the interview with George Otis jr about Manchester Kentucky on CBN
Thank you so much for sharing about this revival in Manchester Kentucky. The whole community is being affected by this move of God, and we should pray that revival fire would spread throughout that region and all over this nation.
Mike
What a great article! It shows the essence of what churches need to do to be effective--repent, put aside their programs and fundraising, pray, and LISTEN TO GOD and do what He leads. I'm going to pray about sending this article in an email to pastors in my city as something to consider.
Yikes! The video that was used, and possibly the plan used, were from a group that has spiritual mapping and their own programs and strategies. They had IHOP pray with them in some of their work from one quote. These things concern me.
And so IHOP prayed for them. Why is that so bad? Read he article. People are coming to Jesus. I think I would like to have IHOP pray for my community if it meant people would come to Christ.
By the way it us my understanding IHOP teaches their young people they will die for Christ. Quite radical if you ask me. But then if we look hard enough we will always find faukt with any ministry.
Bear.
I understand that people can be saved even by groups that have lots of error. I knew people who were genuinely saved by people in cults, by ministers in sin, and so on.
The danger is that these groups often get a hand in ongoing ministry to the new converts and bring them into the errors they believe. IHOP is full of legalism and error. They had a group of women "marry" Jesus, and romanticize the individual's relationship with Jesus. They require their staff to fast and spend certain amounts of time in prayer, and to tithe certain amounts (from what I have read). They are aligned with the signs-seeking ministries, such as MorningStar, Bethel, Catch the Fire (the Arnotts' group), and so on.
Teaching people they will die for Jesus does not mean the group isn't in error. David Koresh and many cult leaders taught their followers to be ready to die "for Jesus."
The Charismatic movement had lots of true converts who got assimilated in error-filled churches and groups, and the true move of God got side tracked.
Error is error, and it is a concern.
Pray tell, what is "IHOP"? The only IHOP i knows is International House of Pancakes. They serve luscious pumpkin pancakes in October.
QUOTE: "I knew people who were genuinely saved by people in cults, by ministers in sin, and so on."==JER2
This is a false statement. No one gets saved by people in a cult, by ministers in sin, and so on. They may get saved IN SPITE OF those things, but never BY those things. And only the Holy Ghost saves.
QUOTE: "Teaching people they will die for Jesus does not mean the group isn't in error. David Koresh and many cult leaders taught their followers to be ready to die "for Jesus.""==JER2
Right on. Well said.
Trekker, it's right that the Holy Spirit convicts and converts people. I think you probably know that I was saying that people have been converted by the Holy Spirit when they were presented the gospel by people in gross sin or error.
IHOP is International House of Prayer, in Kansas City, led by Mike Bickle. Likely, people have written some about it on SI, and you can see what has been written. If not, there is a lot of information about the group online. You can get both sides of people's views.
QUOTE:
______________________________________________________________
Pray tell, what is "IHOP"? The only IHOP i knows is International House of Pancakes. They serve luscious pumpkin pancakes in October.
______________________________________________________________
Trekker, you are asking the same question I used to when I would see IHOP - it would confuse me, totally.
Anyhow, IHOP stands for International House of Prayer.
Hope this makes sense to you now.
Yes and the Anabaptist were called heretics in their day by the reformers that are revered by many in this forum. I have seen a thread criticising a brother who us about yo be martyred in Iran. This brother is held to be a heretic because of allegations he does not believe in the trinity. And yet some will justify voting for a Mormon for President.
Something about throwing that first stone without sin.......
Bearmaster.
What an encouraging article, thank for sharing this.
Oh Lord, do it again and again and again throughout our land!
In Christ,
Ron
An excerpt from the article,
"As Pastor Ken relates, “63 proud pastors set their pride aside and repented before thirty-five hundred people…we had to confess… we were responsible for our county’s condition because we stayed within the walls of our church. We stayed with our denominational programs who really did nothing in addressing the drug problem… we repented of the fortress mentality. And we covenanted together that we were going to fight together, shoulder to shoulder, side by side, to fight this drug problem.” Pastor Ken affirms, “Everything changed at that very moment, and, as Doug says, the heavens opened and good things were on its way.”
Pastor Doug emphasizes the repentance of the pastors was the key. People who had never before felt the presence of the Lord still talk about how evident it was that day.
Fascinating.
Did you notice it happened in an obscure place using obscure people?
God bless.
bearmaster, why is it okay for you to be caustic with your Christian brothers and sisters? I expressed legitimate concerns, coming from a lot of experiences with people harmed by groups like IHOP (and IHOP). I wasn't rude, and did not criticize anyone who did not agree with me, like you have done.
I am frankly tired of Christians on the internet thinking it is all right to be rude.
Best wishes to you, and good-bye.
Hi jer I apperciate your concern,
I have never heard of ihop except for the pancake but after reading what you wrote and what I found on there web sight, I am having a hard time finding how they are not less error filled than most main line churches actually after going to there websight it makes me want to drive to kansas City to see if they actualy are trully seeking God to the extent that there Websight protrays.
RE: Jer2 wrote /IHOP is full of legalism and error/
actually there websight seemed to be just the opposit, unstead of trusting in a lot of dead doctrines they seem to be truly seeking real relationship with God.
RE: Jer2 wrote /They had a group of women "marry" Jesus, and romanticize the individual's relationship with Jesus/
um that sounds scary but there websight says.
/We affirm that spiritual intimacy with God refers to developing a deep personal relationship with God through the Spirit and the Word. In other words, it is based on a deep understanding and knowledge of what the Word of God says about God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
We deny that spiritual intimacy is associated with anything related to human sensuality/
http://www.ihop.org/about/affirmations-and-denials/
RE:jer wrote /They require their staff to fast and spend certain amounts of time in prayer,/
OK?
RE: jer wrote /and to tithe certain amounts (from what I have read)./
I agree that is wrong but I have been in a many of Baptist and other Churches that taught a legalistic 10% tithe many do.
RE: jer wrote /Teaching people they will die for Jesus does not mean the group isn't in error. David Koresh and many cult leaders taught their followers to be ready to die "for Jesus." /
I found nothing on the websight resembling David Koresh.
I agree jer that we need to be have disernment and it would not suprise me that this group is in much error but what religius organization is not??
I would be interested in knowing more fact errors of this group.
Just at first glance they seem to be getting right what a lot of others are not, but I know how at first glance everything looks better than what it often times is.
proudpapa, I will share some of the error that is alarming. It's long, but I want to give enough to show that there are major problems in his ministry.
Mike Bickle's IHOP is founded on prophecies of several men. One of these, Bob Jones, is supposed to have consulted with an angel who came to him frequently, an angel named Emma. It was this angel who also appeared to Todd Bentley and was the source of a lot of his "power." When some saints prevailed in prayer about Bentley's error, Emma suddenly left and Bentley's power evaporated overnight. Needless to say, the "angel" was not from the Lord. However, there has been no repentance from Bob Jones for consulting with this spirit and passing on instructions for the ministry from it to Mike Bickle.
Paul Cain was another prophet upon whose prophecies Bickle's enterprise is built. He was very closely aligned with Bickle's ministry and highly trusted for prophetic direction for maybe 12 years. The fruit from Paul Cain? Eventually outed as having seduced young, male aides (evidently over a period of years), who highly regarded him as a spiritual man; found to be an alcoholic; and anointed Todd Bentley as some mighty chosen one of God. This last happened in Lakeland, within weeks of the married Bentley being discovered to have been involved for a while with a woman in his ministry.
Here is an article by a (supposed) former staffer at IHOP about Contemplative Prayer practiced at IHOP. Several years ago, I saw this book listed online in IHOP's required reading for their classes, so I can corroborate this.
http://gospelmasquerade.wordpress.com/2009/08/01/contemplative-prayer-continued/
Note the instruction that "once you feel God's presence, focus on it in a concentrated way." Also, "You will be able to notice His presence now; He has always been there, but now your attention is on Him within you."
Another of the instructions has the goal to feel God's presence.
Here is a long passage from a blog written by the same former staffer. ( Her blog:
http://gospelmasquerade.wordpress.com/2009/03/22/kissing-god-emulating-saints-how-catholocism-and-the-bridal-paradigm-are-leaking-into-the-body-of-christ/ )
The passage:
"I’ve been asked many times about what I’ve seen and experienced in the time I was on staff as an intern at the International House of Prayer (IHOP) here in Kansas City.
One of the major cracks in IHOP’s faulty foundation
is their return in many ways to the New Age roots of Catholicism. The saints, patriarchs and characters of scripture are the ones idolized, emulated and worshiped."
"Everyone is encouraged to be a “Mary” at the feet of Jesus
or an “Anna” in the temple or a “David” (ie: worshiper).
The focus is not on being like Jesus. It’s about being like a particular Bible character. Jesus is not the primary focus…becoming like a person is. Catholics worship Mary, IHOP-ers worship the pillar figures that have become a staple part of their doctrine."
"Another example of this is seen in IHOP’s erroneous interpretation of the book of Song of Solomon."
"The book of Song of Solomon is held above the rest of scripture as the primary way G-d relates to His people. This makes G-d out to be a sexual, lovesick, love-struck, hormone-driven teenager who is so “captivated” and “awestruck” that He longs after humanity and is running around Heaven going crazy without her."
"...On 9/24/07, an ex-ihoper shares on a blog forum that as part of the required reading curriculum at IHOP’s Forerunner School of Ministry, students have to read a book called “The The Relentless Tenderness of Jesus” written by a Franciscan Priest named Brennan Manning. Chapter six expounds on the belief of the author that “God is sexually aroused by His people.” This led students to confessing that reading this book caused them to have sexual thoughts…which they forced themselves to excuse away by telling themselves “well, God feels this way so it’s ok”. When Allen Hood (the school’s president) was confronted about the book, he refused to pull it from the shelves or from the required reading material of the class. His response was simply to “chew on the meat and spit out the bones”. This is the kind of dangerous thinking that causes many in cults such as IHOP to have a passive mind. They come under a learned helplessness and lose all ability to filter and discern between truth and error."
"This theology which is a staple teaching of IHOP also forces men to relate to G-d in a feminine way with G-d being his lover. G-d never intended for men to sacrifice their masculinity in order to worship Him. He does not place men into feminine roles. I’ve heard Mike say things like “when we say ‘kiss me with the kisses of your mouth’ we simply mean ‘kiss me with the kisses of your word’.
No where in scripture is this interpretation supported or taught as a way of G-d relating to the heart of His creation. That verse does not say “kiss me with the kisses of your word.” This is IHOP’s translation of this verse which they tacked on to make it mean what they want it to mean."
"It’s a deeply sobering and serious thing to take a verse, passage or book in the Bible and re-draw the lines of meaning and interpretation to propagate your own theology and teach your spin on scripture. G-d is pretty clear in His word about how He desires it to be interpreted. He warns against his Word not being added to or taken from. To misinterpret scripture is to misinterpret and misrepresent the heart of the One who wrote it."
How did we come to the place that we started out thanking God
For a true heaven sent revival and ended up bashing IHOP?
This is a good example of why we are not seeing more revivals, because
Instead of coming together in unity in one mind and one accord
on the ground of Christ, there is division and strife over our
differences.
Mike
Abideinhim, you bring up a good subject.
There are two problems in Christianity regarding how people view revival.
1) Those who believe in the power of God through preaching and all the gifts in operation through men and women and
2) Those who do not.
The 'those who do not' are always criticizing any revival if it shows signs and wonders of any kind, especially prophesying or speaking in tongues. They demand that everything be done decently and in order yet they themselves do not have any of these manifestations in their congregations and will not allow anyone to do so.
When there is a revival and these things are happening, your going to get division from this crowd. Nothing is right, or ever right. Nothing positive will ever come from their lips about these revivals. They have no idea that God can even work in the midst of confusion and has many times in the past.
I used to be like that. God shut my mouth when I found out someone had got saved in one of those places that I thought God wasn't in. I saw an instant transformation. As I sat there demanding that everything be done in order and being critical of everything that I saw, God flew past me and showed me that even in the midst of what I thought was not of God, God was working. I saw people getting healed, while I was miserable wallowing in my 'correct' doctrine. Makes me sick just thinking about it.
But that is what we have today AbideinHim these two camps.
actualy aproved you missed another major group
3 those who believe in the gifts tongs prophecy and the power of god in only a bibilcal scence
in contrass to another group who believe and except anything supanatural and toungs spoken any prophecy any healing
men like cater conlon and david wilkinson would be in the group 3 according to there own words as aposed to any spirit goes anointing
at least 3 camps ,,but one could easly define a forth camp of extremliberlism ,,that even go as far as dening the mirical of a new birth
blessings
AbideinHim asked,
How did we come to the place that we started out thanking God
For a true heaven sent revival and ended up bashing IHOP?
answer
Yikes! The video that was used, and possibly the plan used, were from a group that has spiritual mapping and their own programs and strategies. They had IHOP pray with them in some of their work from one quote. These things concern me.
Notice words like "pray with on some of their work.."
and "possibly the plan used..."
hmmm
Brother, you make some real good points, and many historic
revivals have been resisted by some of the well known ministers
throughout church history. Well known theologians such as Chauncy
became a critic of the Great Awakening calling it "enthusiasm."
Even the beloved Andrew Murray, who prayed for revival, tried
To control the outburst of emotion of young people, without success,
when the Spirit of God moved on them.
It is not just the critics of spiritual gifts that are to be blamed,
but there has been much pride among many who embrace the
gifts and manifestations, believing that revival can only come
through our own sect.
There have been revivals that have taken place that were marked
by miracles, signs and wonders, and others have not , but in every
case it was the same Holy Spirit that was poured out in different
manifestations. We need to see the Body of Christ not as "the
Pentecostal Body" or the " Baptist Body", but as one Body that was
bought and paid for by the blood of the Lamb.
Mike
The manifestation of gifts or lack of it, which denomination is being used for the revival, the presence of some zeal that is not in order--these aren't the issues I am concerned about.
I was thinking of passing along to some ministers in town the article about the revival that this thread is about. However, there are unscriptural practices and beliefs in IHOP that lead people into bondage and error. That's why I reacted when I saw their involvement.
I would warn people away from IHOP and the NAR/ Bethel Church/ Toronto Blessing/ MorningStar people. Let the Holy Spirit move through you and your group without allying yourself to these dangerous groups. We've had plenty of revivals that were begun by the Spirit, but the groups involved turned into another human movement, with mixed blessings, or, even worse, that people suffered damage from. I knew a very sincere group that saw conversions and healings and so on, that ended up destroying people's lives because they were in error, and the error continued to grow. It is better to do things God's way all the way, and not settle for a mixture of darkness and light.
That's all I'll say about this.
It goes without saying that anything I have posted about sermons, ministries, revival happenings etc, does not mean that I endorse every aspect and nuance of said sermon or ministry or revival.
Greg Gordon has basically said the same about all of the sermons and techers available on SI.
This site is dedicated to Revival.
So when a seemingly fruitful revival resulting in truly changed lives and communities occur, well it seems natural to share this with the SI forum.
Test all things and hold fast to that which is good!
Another thread that started out great and ends up with some guy, who knew some guy, that met another guy in an elevator, who said that this person may or may not have been a part of a ministry that we might agree or disagree with.
Ridiculous.
That article is wonderful, and I have no doubt that the Lord is at work when I hear about pastors and members of the body repenting for building 'a work' that is not HIS work, and more importantly DOING SOMETHING about it!
I love it when someone gets healed to be sure, but there is nothing that I love more than hearing testimonies of people being radically saved and delivered from every wicked thing!
Praise the Lord!
This is rude, again. You've won--I won't be back on the forum.
May God bless you all, nevertheless.
Jer2,
Try not to take this so hard. Your concerns may be totaly validated in the final analysis.
I can only refer you to my previous comments on this thread.
In spite of how you may think I am sure we all hope you will continue with the forum and grow with us as we are also growing in wisdom and discernmnet.
I mean that.
John
Being the ancient baby boomer I am I remember the Jesus movement. Probably the last significant movement if God's Spirit across this land. People were gloriously converted out if that movement. And yes there were some weird stuff taking place during the Jesus movement. But God was at work in the lives of people back then.
So why the trip down memory lane. Just that in any movement of the Holy Spirit there will be abuses. But lets not discredit what God is doing in that movement. Particularly if people are coming to Christ and the gospel is going forth.
Regarding the International House of Prayer I have visited their prayer room and see heartfelt worship of Christ. Is their music soulish? Perhaps so. Are their areas of concern? No doubt. But show me a ministry that does not have areas of concern. Even Sermon Index.
What I do see in Kansas City are a group of young people that are worshipping Jesus 24 hours of day. Much in the spirit if the old Moravians. Many of these young people are familiar with Ravenhill,
Wesley, Whitfield, etc. Why we debate revival. They pray for it. They also fast for it.
Many of these young adults are willing to go to the nations with the gospel and give their lives for Jesus. J am not going to fault that.
Before we write something off. Let us see what God is doing through it.
Bearmaster.
I realize Youth With a Mission is probably not held in high extern. I imagine that ministry has faults coming out if its ears. Yet the other night we had the honor of praying for a young Korean woman. This sister is 26 years old. She completed a YWAM training program. Het desire is to take the gospel back to N. Korea.
N. Korea is number one on the watch list of persecuting Christians. Over 20,000 to 40,000 believers are imprisoned in death camps. The average life span of an evangelist in N. Korea is .3 to 6 months. For sure this young woman knew the dangers. Yet she is still willing to lay it down for Jesus and go. Even her own life.
This is the caliber of some of the young adukts coming out if IHOP and YWAM. These will be the generation to win the world for Jesus. For surely it will not be us.
God go with these young adukts.
Bearmaster.
Please, please take the time to go to this page and watch the 17 minute trailer for Appalachian Dawn It is very instuctional and inspiring in my opinion.
http://sentinel.ctvportal.com/FireQuest/ManchesterKentucky/tabid/2619/Default.aspx
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