New Book: Killing Calvinism

I thought I'd start the morning off with a grin and a quote from a new book out called, "Killing Calvinism."

Quote: We cross a line when we are more focused on mastering theology than on being mastered by Christ.

http://cruciformpress.com/our-books/killing-calvinism/

God bless us all!!
Lisa
(off to work!)

Reading a little of the “sample” and the “contents page” I believe that he is right on in the message he is trying to get out to his “Calvinist” friends. I read the first part of how he became a “Calvinist”; it was like he was born again into being a Calvinist. I just don’t find it in scripture that we are to be a “Calvinist” or any other “ism”. He said about how the younger people were becoming “Calvinist” and how they acted. He also said that how he was born again, a Calvinist, without any cooperation with God. This really bothers me because there are multitudes of scripture that shows we have a responsibility toward God in our conversion experience. I am praying that more young people will be baptized in the Holy Spirit and follow Jesus, His Word and Spirit instead of wanting or desiring to be a “Calvinist”. Jesus is the name above every name not Calvin.

Just in case, you did what I did and misinterpreted the title, here’s a few more words which brings clarity to the focus of the book:

Killing Calvinism: How to Destroy a Perfectly Good Theology from the Inside
by Greg Dutcher........ .

In other words, the book apparently addresses the unfortunate threats to a good theology. It is not suggesting that we should attempt to kill Calvinism!

but thats certainly not a problem that is only unique to Calvinists.

We cross a line when we are more focused on mastering theology than on being mastered by Christ.

John Piper speak well of the book. He makes me eager to read it - because it seems to be a thoughtful and honest confession. (Am I right, Lysa?)

Quote:
“When this kind of critique and warning come from within a movement, it is a sign of health.” John Piper

I posted this thread in good fun because I loved the quote and agree with Krispy’s, “that’s certainly not a problem that is only unique to Calvinists.”

I do not believe 100% in Calvinism nor do I believe in a 100% in any theology that has a “man’s” name attached to it; they all are based on scripture and have a measure of truth in them, as well as a measure of UNtruth in them.

My personal belief is that we should just quit arguing about what we believe and LIVE what we believe. The truth is that our works will show forth exactly what we believe; whether it’s Christ’s doctrine or man’s doctrine. But that’s just my two cents, my friends!! Off to work again and won’t be on until late.

God is so good; his mercy is from everlasting to everlasting!!! Praise his holy name!
Lisa

amen to your last coment lisa

My personal belief is that we should just quit arguing about what we believe and LIVE what we believe.

PS edit: Does anyone wish to offer reasons why this is?

Diane

Amen! I agree Lisa & Dianne!

Sorry if I offended anyone, my only desire is that you would rejoice in the Lord Jesus Christ and understand that “Calvinism” cannot bless the whole body of Christ: it only divides the body of Christ into segments; only Jesus can save those who put their faith and trust in Him and give real everlasting joy. We need to realize now that there will be no “Calvinist” in heaven. We will all have a new name and it definitely want be “Calvin” so the sooner you get over it the better off you will be. So be blessed in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

I’ve got leaping Joy, everlasting peace, and the fullness of the Holy Ghost and “Calvinism” didn’t give it to me, but there is a name above all others. He gave it to me. His name is Jesus, the Christ, and the Son of the living God. There are men who have blessed me with their knowledge of God but I am not going to be called after their name. There is only one name that I want to be called after and it is the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen! Amen! Amen!

Just some thoughts on your comments here, rbanks:

“Calvinism” cannot bless the whole body of Christ: it only divides the body of Christ into segments
I’ve got leaping Joy, everlasting peace, and the fullness of the Holy Ghost and “Calvinism” didn’t give it to me,

I speak generally, because your comments reflect a common way of thinking among us.

We rightfully should be concerned about the over dependency on names and isms. However, in our attempt to absolve ourselves from any association with them, we may very well be –
1) revealing our naivety about their influences on our own faith perspectives
2) considering ourselves above those who are associated with them.
3) revealing a failure to appreciate the struggles among those who have contended “for the faith” in these movements.
4) we become our own authority on what it means to be Christian

Of course Calvin and Calvin-ism are not synonymous! But, still, its influences on historical evangelicalism and other Christian movements cannot be underestimated! The Puritans were deeply shaped by Calvinistic influences. And that came over to North America. Even our economic and legal practices today are affected. Some good foundations were laid! Sadly, those traditions are becoming lost and replaced – to our detriment! Our prevailing ignorance of history (ex theological) doesn’t help.

One of the most significant criticisms hurled against the evangelical/revivalist type of movements is their anti-intellectualistic stance. Pietism and experience were the priority. Dogma was not!

You see the effects in modern evangelicalism: heart over head – ie, feeling over thinking, etc. You see this embedded in our language - even here. It's the water we swim in - and like the fish, we can't even see it.

This collective blindspot has only created bigger and brutal divides - and a lot of gullible Christians – often based on insufficient THINKING.

Ex: Evangelicals could have been a stronger antidote against liberalism if they had given thinking and scholarship a higher priority.

Let’s not be proud of our ignorance! A Catholic once said to me, “When people go to church they leave their brains at the door.” That, I fear, can be said for any denomination.

Jesus wants our minds too - but not to shut them down!

--------
Just curious – what do you think of author’s comments on the video clips in the link Lysa posted? Does he raise a legitimate concern?

Diane

Frankly it's rebellion in nature.

Yes, "Each does what he sees fit". Our own opinion reigns supreme. We can't see that we make our own INTERPRETATION of truth supreme. Ours FEELS right, and that's what makes it right.

Today we don't divide over doctrine. We divide over worship style. What does that say about us: feeling OVER thinking!

Let's not blame Calvin!

Diane

Let’s not be proud of our ignorance! A Catholic once said to me, “When people go to church they leave their brains at the door.” That, I fear, can be said for any denomination.

Jesus wants our minds too - but not to shut them down!

The bible teaches that He wants our minds to be renewed. It also teaches that we are to have the “mind of Christ”. If I am ignorant because I have joy unspeakable from the Holy Spirit and not from “Calvinism” then we will let God be the judge of that because I give Him all the praise for not getting involved in an “ism” that only divides the body of Christ.

Also who has the “Catholics” brain and to what purpose is she using it for? I realize there is a lot of ignorance to the things of God. We desperately need the wisdom of God and we should be asking God continually for wisdom in everything. We also need him to direct our paths.

I realize also my post may have been a little over zealous but I did restrain from writing a lot of things that could have been too strong. The Lord is my strength and my portion and whatever truth anybody receives came from the “Spirit of Christ” and we know man’s opinions about the “Word” are not always inspired. The truth in “Calvinism” did not come from “John Calvin” because if it is the truth it came from the “Spirit of Truth”. We can thank God for the revelation of the truth he discovered as well as recognizing the errors he also made that did not come from the “Spirit of the Lord”. When I say that I am a follower of Jesus Christ then there are no errors coming from Him that could divide the true “body of Christ” or do any damage to my relationship with God. But if I were to say that I am a follower of “John Calvin” (Calvinism) then I have divided myself from the “body of Christ” and have also brought some damage to my relationship with God because of the errors that came from him.

Anyway bless you Diane and you are a gifted writing and I enjoy most of your posts. I am definitely not a writer and I leave out so much that I could say verbally so much better.

Quote: "If I am ignorant because I have joy unspeakable from the H.S and not from Calvanism, we will let God be the Judge". Or whatever word might be inserted in place of the title Calvanist. I think this sums up what many are trying to say even though each might say it a little differently.

One of my many appreciations of S.I. is for teaching me a healthy liberalism as a result from those many varied background sermons and individuals found here. I love those who I will never see this side of heaven because they love Christ first in their lives. Christians drive stakes through the heart of denominationalism and the other ism's When the glory of God is their main pursuit.

Is there a book out called "Killing ...isms"? If so, I would invest in buying it.

So many Christians are married to isms, instead of Christ. You will hear them say, "My ism is what the Bible teaches" in order to keep others from questioning them. Not only is this wrong, it is dangerous.

When someone thinks that they cannot be wrong, or more importantly, learn something new that is not part of their ism, they are in real danger. Pride creeps in slowly, and then starts to strangle them before they even know it.

This kind of reminds me of the analogy of a frog placed in a cold pot of water, slowly heating to a boil, and a frog placed in a boiling pot of water. Which frog will jump out first? Which frog knows that it is in danger right away...?

You mad brother? I do not remember addressing you personally Krispy, but only making a general observation.

If you are convicted by my post, good. Conviction is a great thing. I get convicted almost daily by postings that I read here and things elsewhere. If it further helps conform me into the image of Christ, I submit myself to it.

Pride is a killer. I know this because I am and have been a prideful person. I am trying to change, but can only do so in the Lord.

Keep the conviction coming in my life Lord...

Well Maybe I shouldn’t let men’s doctrines bother me so much because there is nothing I can do to change it.

I reckon it is only because I have never heard anyone in the “Calvinist” camp ever explained why men perish, except only to blame God in the final analysis. I mean they can go all the way around the world with pages of doctrines and still end up saying that God only decided to save some and let the others perish.

I mean can you imagine a loving Dad having 2 sons drowning in the water and he had the power to save both of them but he only saved one, and why just one, if he is truly a dad who loves his children. It would make more sense to me and I would feel better that if the Dad threw out a lifeline to both Sons and told them to take hold, because he wanted to save both of them and that was the only way he could save either son. I mean then if one of them didn’t take hold and drowned at least the dad tried to save both of them, but the children had to take hold of the lifeline because that was the only way His dad could save either of them.

Anyway never mind, I apologize for my involvement in this thread and the other thread. I don’t accuse anyone and neither am I angry at anyone on SI, I only hope everybody the best in the Lord.

I reckon it is only because I have never heard anyone in the “Calvinist” camp ever explained why men perish, except only to blame God in the final analysis.

You may enjoy George Whitefield.

Oh….. has anyone got some thoughts about the book itself – that is inspiring our chats here?

Diane

Maybe I shouldn’t let men’s doctrines bother me so much because there is nothing I can do to change it.

Rbanks, It’s unfortunate that people have created a category called “men’s doctrines” assumed to be what man dreamed up (as opposed to God’s truth).

“Men’s doctrine” is typically a pejorative term applied critically to anything we don’t like (or can’t understand). It’s a great term for armchair theologians. Believing that we avoid “men’s doctrine” by reading only the Bible and putting ourselves above everybody else’s work is in itself “man’s doctrine” – or as Krispy would say – pride.

Take heart sister! I believe an important aspect of our spiritual journey is to unravel the faulty thinking in our own minds (call it “man’s doctrines” if you like). This is an ongoing process. Recognizing this to be a constant need can prevent us from falling into the danger of assuming that we are above “man’s doctrine”.

And that's one of the tenants of reformed doctrine: "Always reforming."

What do you think?
Diane

First of all Diane I am a brother in the Lord.

Rbanks, It’s unfortunate that people have created a category called “men’s doctrines” assumed to be what man dreamed up (as opposed to God’s truth).

“Men’s doctrine” is typically a pejorative term applied critically to anything we don’t like (or can’t understand). It’s a great term for armchair theologians. Believing that we avoid “men’s doctrine” by reading only the Bible and putting ourselves above everybody else’s work is in itself “man’s doctrine” – or as Krispy would say – pride.

It is also unfortunate Diane that you have picked out of all my posts using the word "pride" and the name of "Krispy" two times in two separate posts. You have not one time address any of my concerns. But you have repeated yourself twice and have come at me in two different angles but the same demeanor. Now you can have your "Calvinism" doctrine and believe that God gave it to men as infallible truth all you want and accuse me of being proud all you want. I will still believe that there are "doctrines of men" meaning teachings that are not inspired by God.

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Colossians 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

I do believe "calvinist" believe in the bible, but it is their opinions I have trouble with on the five points called TULIP. Even though some things i do agree with, but there are also other things i dont. "Calvinist" focus on, what i call "mysteries of God". There are some theories some "calvinst" hold to that maybe God doesnt want us to know, which could be dangerous if it is main focus of it. I know one thing Jesus wants us to hold on too and is The Gospel, The Word Of God, to be preached to everyone. Amen

God Bless Brethren
David C.

Jesus-is-GOD wrote

Quoting rbanks words in the parenthesis

"I will still believe that there are "doctrines of men" meaning teachings that are not inspired by God."

"Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Jesus addressed these words to His fellow Jews, who signed on to the Mosaic Covenant that they made with God with the sprinkling of blood while shouting 'Yes, this we will do.", and which was about to be annihilated upon the death of Jesus.

"Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Jesus addressed these words to His fellow Jews, whose Mosaic Covenant they signed onto with God with the sprinkling of blood while shouting 'Yes, this we will do.", was about to be annihilated upon the death of Jesus.

"Colossians 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?"

Let's expand the context of what Paul wrote:

Colossians 16-23

16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish [with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence."

23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence."

-----

Context here is Paul addressing Christians to avoid taking upon themselves burdens and or ideas that come from Jewish traditions, or pagan practices. It is essential that our thoughts be Christ centered. In prayer and sincereity we ought to seek out the guidance of the indwelling Holy Spirit before we rush to any Judgement. And we speak, we wish to speak what is actually true, in the spirit of love.

Ummmm.

Hey all, uh, - I see you looking at me. Well, uhm, I'm trying, I'm trying.