Obamacare Stands

If Americans would like to know how Obamacare will affect them -- if it isn't repealed by the next Congress/Administration -- then just click on the following link:

http://tinyurl.com/obamacarecost

On a personal note, I know family members and friends who are small business owners, ministers or are self-employed. They barely make ends meet each month. However, a family of two that earns $38,000 per year will have to come up with an additional $3100-3600 per year for insurance or face fines from the IRS.

By the way, if you cannot afford Obamacare, the "fine" from the IRS will affect your wages and credit. Your wages or property can be garnished by the government to pay it. It will also become a part of your tax and credit history.

*Edit - For many communities, the $38,000 that I quoted may seem quite sufficient for living expenses. However, in communities like the one where we reside, $38,000 doesn't go far when taxes and the cost of living is very high and apartment rent averages $2600 per month. A local pastor of a small independent (non-tax exempt) congregation that I know was quite concerned about the cost since he makes approximately this amount and cannot afford insurance.

Guess what folks... He is still in control.

Why are we worrying about tomorrow?

by KrispyKrittr on 2012/6/28 12:34:26

Sad day for America.

Fortunately, it is not a sad day for those who know the Lord. Our joy does not depend on this world's wishy washy ways.

Our God (Jehovah Jireh) has not changed.

Pilgrim

Part of the problem with the fundamental flaw in the logic of the health care legislation is that insurance companies don't provide health care. Hospitals do. If you have a problem with the costs and level of service a hospital provides, take it up with the hospitals. Insurance companies are just a company where people pool their money together to cover some of the costs of financing health care. Insurance coverage is like a glorified coupon that helps you to cover the cost of medical expenses.

The estimated cost of this legislation is 1 trillion dollars. Somebody's gotta pay that back. That should make just about anybody sad.

I can't speak for Krispy, but I also feel that it is a sad day for America. This is the first "tax" (a deceptive way to construct socialized health care) that is assessed for simply being alive.

For most Americans, there is no opt out. You will either pay this new tax for health insurance (including a new reliance on the government for a welfare entitlement in the form of a partial subsidy if you qualify for it) or face a fine (and credit damage) from the Internal Revenue Service. If you don't pay the fine, your income or property will be garnished. If you still don't pay the fine (or cannot afford it), you can potentially face jail time.

In today's economic quagmire, there are many people who are either self-employed, working odd jobs or just barely squeak by (financially) from month-to-month. They have little left over for saving -- let along the cost of health insurance. Plus, the cost of insurance premium rates has only increased exponentially since Obamacare was initially "deemed passed."

So, for a minister and his wife who earn just $38,000 per year, they will have to come up with another $3600 -- and this is WITH the government welfare entitlement subsidy that they will be forced to sign up for! So, where will that extra money come from?

Now, God is certainly our provider. We don't have to "worry" about what we will eat or where we will sleep. Yet, it is still required that we work, make purchases or avoid making purchases that we cannot afford. However, this expense was created by representatives in a government of consent -- many of whom were subsequently voted out of office as a result of their votes in regard to this legislation.

Most polls reveal that it is unpopular with the American population and most current legislators alike. And, of course, most requirements of this law haven't gone into effect yet. The full impact of this law wouldn't be realized until 2013-2014. Since there are so many individuals who are unaware of what this law actually means to them personally, I suspect that some will be caught off guard when they realize that they must BUY insurance even if some might receive a partial subsidy once they sign up for public assistance with a government welfare office.

I am personally disappointed by this legislation. I think that there was a much better way to go about health care reform than the closed-door meetings and rushed votes that went into its creation. Our local Congresswoman admitted that she didn't even read the legislation at all before she voted on it. I simply find that a requirement to BUY something is NOT the equivalent to a "tax" even if it was designed as such via rhetorical smoke and mirrors in the description of the legislation in order to pass Constitutional muster. This opens the door for many other similar "taxes" to be imposed upon residents.

As for the countries that you mentioned: I have become quite familiar with some government health care systems in the countries that you mentioned. While they might appear helpful on the surface, they can be sorely lacking in regard to many health care services that Americans have grown quite accustomed to. There are limits to services in many countries that are typically observed only in military or veterans' hospitals in the United States.

As Jimmy mentioned, the cost is enormous (and heavily underestimated). It doesn't take into account those who will actually "take advantage" of such a system. Thus, if this isn't repealed, the cost will likely be much higher for both the government (paid for by taxpayers) and individual insurance rates (also paid for by taxpayers).

We all know what Obamacare is. We all know what it costs. Conservatively, it will cost over a trillion to implement and you know how costs grow. In the beginning, they said Medicare would only cost 16 million. Get my point? Well, this is law now, unless a new president overturns it. If he can.

How do I feel about it? I am not going to let it steal my joy or harden my heart. I am still going to honor all men as the Lord commands and pray for our leaders.

Unlike the world, we have many good and edifying things to think about. Praiseworthy things, lovely things.
Let's rise up and shine as the days get darker. This is a test to rise up and shine and glorify Jesus Christ and walk in love rather than moan and complain and get bitter. Bitterness defiles many.

This hits everyone hard. I don't know of any exception.

If we are going to get ready for the coming persecution, then let's get ready in these small things.

Jer 12:5 If thou hast run with the footmen, and they have wearied thee, then how canst thou contend with horses? and if in the land of peace (America or whatever you are trusting in), wherein thou trustedst, they wearied thee, then how wilt thou do in the swelling of Jordan (tough times, persecutions, add your difficulty)?

Part of getting ready for the coming persecution is learning to keep ourselves in the love of God in these bitter disappointments of life and rising above it all in the power and grace of the Lord Jesus. Remember, we are just passing through and although we will not experience the Lord's wrath we are promised tribulation. Things like this are types of tribulation. Are we going to crumble and revile leaders and hate men or are we going to allow the Lord to perfect us in love in all matters?

Maybe, there will be some unaccounted for blessings as we see the days get darker. What if the Church rose up to be the victorious, joyful self-sacrificing Church of Jesus Christ not caring what the world did to it? The world is wishy-washy and anti-God and that should not dictate how we "feel". We walk by faith, not feelings and last I knew, Jesus Christ was still in control of all things.

Pilgrim

I agree with the poster who highlighted how this is small potatoes compared to the system the first century Christians lived under.

That being said.....

Chief Justice Roberts clearly stated that in the courts view six things were true

1. It is clearly a tax
2. As a "tax" , the power to regulate taxes clearly rests with the congress in the Constitution
3. The Supreme Court has no right to usurp congresses ability to tax at the rates it sees fit
4. If the people do not like those tax rates.. then they need to elect different representatives!
5. Ultimately the voters messed this up by sending representatives that would tax them at these massive rates.
6. No one but the voters can fix it as we are the ones who elect the ones who determine tax laws an amounts!

I know a lot of the conservative world is mad at him right now. However, he removed it from the hands of the Supreme Court and placed the future of it directly in the hands of the voters! Brilliant!

Perhaps Chief Justice Roberts is crazy... crazy like a fox!

While I disagree with the legislation, I do find Justice Roberts constitutional reasoning sound. At least he did state that if it were an individual mandate under the interstate commerce clause, it would be unconstitutional. And while I think it is a stretch for him to interpret this legislation as a tax, I can at least understand how he sees it that way. I respectfully disagree with him on the part about it being a tax... and so did the other conservative justices. Such an interpretation now creates a huge loophole that anytime congress wants to pass a new issue that should come under the interstate commerce clause, they'll just say it is a new tax instead. That definitely gives me pause for concern.

The Bible speaks of sowing and reaping.

A year from now, or even less, the 'fruit' of these taxes, and the misery it will have caused, will be apparent.

Pardon me while i throw up. Mr.Obamanation and his Obominational law. Just God's judgement via a Socialist takeover as America circles the drain...

Solomon101
I agree with the poster who highlighted how this is small potatoes compared to the system the first century Christians lived under.

That being said.....

Chief Justice Roberts clearly stated that in the courts view six things were true

1. It is clearly a tax
2. As a "tax" , the power to regulate taxes clearly rests with the congress in the Constitution
3. The Supreme Court has no right to usurp congresses ability to tax at the rates it sees fit
4. If the people do not like those tax rates.. then they need to elect different representatives!
5. Ultimately the voters messed this up by sending representatives that would tax them at these massive rates.
6. No one but the voters can fix it as we are the ones who elect the ones who determine tax laws an amounts!

I know a lot of the conservative world is mad at him right now. However, he removed it from the hands of the Supreme Court and placed the future of it directly in the hands of the voters! Brilliant!

Perhaps Chief Justice Roberts is crazy... crazy like a fox!

Well said. So glad that someone is paying attention, and gets the point of Chief Justice Roberts decision. I think he knew exactly what he was doing. His opinion clearly exposed the fact that this is a tax law. The good news is, tax laws can be repealed.

One day later, after "cooling down", people are realizing that what Justice Roberts did could have been a gift for Romney. That is what I am reading in several places.

Pilgrim

QUOTE: "I know a lot of the conservative world is mad at him right now. However, he removed it from the hands of the Supreme Court and placed the future of it directly in the hands of the voters! Brilliant!"==SOLOMON101//MRBILLPRO

Bill/or/Solomon101, i don't quite understand what you state here. Roberts was the swing vote and if he had just voted to strike Obamacare down as Unconstitutional then Obamacare would be DEAD right now. So how is this at all brilliant? PLease explain, cuz maybe i am missing something...thank you.

QUOTE: "How do I feel about it? I am not going to let it steal my joy or harden my heart. I am still going to honor all men as the Lord commands and pray for our leaders.Unlike the world, we have many good and edifying things to think about. Praiseworthy things, lovely things.Let's rise up and shine as the days get darker. This is a test to rise up and shine and glorify Jesus Christ and walk in love rather than moan and complain and get bitter. Bitterness defiles many."==PILGRIM777

Wow Pilgrim, i feel very moved and enlightened by this good counsel of your's. I will try to, and sure hope i can, live up to it. I think you must have a gift, the gift of encouragement, cuz this strikes me as profound.

Bill/or/Solomon101, i don't quite understand what you state here. Roberts was the swing vote and if he had just voted to strike Obamacare down as Unconstitutional then Obamacare would be DEAD right now. So how is this at all brilliant? PLease explain, cuz maybe i am missing something...thank you.

Ok, bottom line is he basically took a neutral position in a very crafty manner. If he were to have struck it down, he would have made enemies with the Democrats, he did not want to do that, and eventually if the Republicans can take over the Presidency,and the House and Senate, come November they can repeal the tax law. So right now for the folks that know this, it's a win/win situation for all, now come November "if" the Republicans take over, the Democrats will be crying a lot of tears. I would not be surprised from the reaction most Americans have had since the vote, if the Democrats might not try some sort of back tracking. Most Politicians are Lawyers, you understand what I am saying, they might not be for the people, but they are not stupid, it's all in the game of Politics.

The Romney campaign received $4.2 million in donations yesterday, per CBS News.

Another observation. The other side of this is that the American people did not choose this. From the very beginning the way the bill was passed was illegal and unconstitutional. I think people were just hoping the Supreme Court would have ruled on the constitutionality of it.

The first day of oral arguments on March 26th, the Justices wanted to know if the mandate was a tax. The govt said it was not. Now, Roberts says it is a tax. The govt did not want the law to be subject to the Anti-injunction cAct, so they said it was not a tax on the first day ( so the case would go on).

The fraud took place on the first day, because the govt got to say it was a tax on the 2nd day per the Commerce Clause. The govt got to argue their position both ways.

It's all smoke and mirrors, folks.

Jesus is Lord

Pilgrim

bearmaster..Why I find disturbing in all if this is we are forgegtting where our hope truky lies. We are like the Pharisees who told Pilot we have no king but Caesar. Excuse ne. We have ni salvation but Miit Romney.

Have we forgotten this man is a Mormon? Have we forgotten that Mormonism is a cult? Have we forgotten that Mormonism is rooted in Satanism? Have we forgotten that Mormonism has a tie into the Masonic lodge? Is anybody not aware that Romneyy is dead serious about his faith? Do you think that when elected Romney is going to leave his religion behind when he moves into the white house.

Barack Hussein Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii, to Barack Hussein Obama Sr. (black muslim) of Nyangoma-Kogelo, Siaya District, Kenya, and Ann Dunham of Wichita, Kansas. (white atheist ).

When Obama was two years old, his parents divorced and his father returned to Kenya. His mother married Lolo Soetoro -- a Muslim -- moving to Jakarta with Obama when he was six years old. Within six months he had learned to speak the Indonesian language. Obama spent "two years in a Muslim school, then two more in a Catholic school" in Jakarta. Obama takes great care to conceal the fact that he is a Muslim while admitting that he was once a Muslim, mitigating that damning information by saying that, for two years, he also attended a Catholic school.

Obama's father, Barack Hussein Obama, Sr. was a radical Muslim who migrated from Kenya to Jakarta, Indonesia. He met Obama's mother, Ann Dunham-a white atheist from Wichita, Kansas-at the University of Hawaii at Manoa. Obama, Sr. and Dunham divorced when Barack, Jr. was two.

So Obama is Muslim, so what do we do? vote for the lesser of the two evils? and which one would be the lesser of the two evils?

Hi bearmaster,

Why I find disturbing in all if this is we are forgegtting where our hope truky lies. We are like the Pharisees who told Pilot we have no king but Caesar. Excuse ne. We have ni salvation but Miit Romney.

Have we forgotten this man is a Mormon? Have we forgotten that Mormonism is a cult? Have we forgotten that Mormonism is rooted in Satanism? Have we forgotten that Mormonism has a tie into the Masonic lodge? Is anybody not aware that Romneyy is dead serious about his faith? Do you think that when elected Romney is going to leave his religion behind when he moves into the white house?

If we believe that that the gospel impacts all areas of our life the Mormons believe the same thing. The Mormons, much like the Moslems, are dead serious about their faith. They are more serious than the evangelicals are.

Someone started a thread on loop hole theology. Looking for ways to justify disobedience to God from the word. I expect that their will be all sorts of threads coming forth justifying a vote for a Mormon. Why not just go on and say we welcome Mormons as brothers and sisters in the Lord. For a vote for Romney will surely convey that.

Has anyone considered that God may have allowed the SC to uphold Obama Care to force us to trust him. To call out to him.

Saints there is only one who can save you and that is Jesus Christ. Anything else is a false god. And you know what happened to Israel when they trusted in false gods.

I don't know the "we" who you are referring to. Such generalizations and assumptions are too far-reaching to make much of an impact or provide true clarity in regards to the rhetorical picture that you have painted.

As believers in Jesus Christ, we obviously know where our hope truly lies. Of course we aware that Mitt Romney is a Mormon. Of course we are also aware that Barack Obama is a Liberation Theology advocate. And, of course, we must trust in God for all things...and that He would lead us into all truth.

However, there are decisions that are left up to us in this world -- even though we are as "free as a bondservant" in Christ Jesus. We make such decisions daily. When I buy milk, bread or gasoline, I decide based upon the store, cost, ingredients and brand. I rarely question whether or not the store (e.g. Safeway, Wal-Mart, Target, etc...) is owned or operated by Christians. I simply try to determine (living in a "pray always" practice) which of the stores/cost/ingredients/brand is best for my family at such a time as this.

If we do have an attitude where we abstain from every Mormon (or unbeliever, atheist, Liberation Theology advocate, Catholic, etc...) out there, we will have quite a difficult time living in this world. Why? This world is literally FILLED with unbelievers or individuals who adhere to a persuasion that differs from our own. To truly and fully abstain from products or company/corporate direction of unbelievers, I suspect that we would get rid of our computers, shoes, clothing, and even our homes. In fact, we would more readily look even more "apart" than the most strict sects of Old Order Amish.

Yet, God did not take us out of this world (physically) when we came to Him. We still live here in creation (for the time being). When we buy a car, we don't interview every employee of Ford Motor Company from the local salesmen to the CEO to the Ford family and try to determine their collective spiritual condition. We simply make a decision whether or not they sell a good vehicle at a good price and whether or not it is better for ourselves and our families than the alternatives at such a time as this.

So, when I decide to vote, I don't pretend to know the heart of a man. I can't say that I know the spiritual condition of ANY believer here. And, when I vote, I am not voting for a pastor. I am simply making a decision about who I think would be the better choice for the next four years -- especially when it comes to policies that such individuals might espouse or legislate.

It shouldn't take something like Obamacare -- or even persecution -- to cause us to cleave to Christ. We should already be walking with God on a daily basis. We should also refrain from making assumptions about the Body of Christ in such a matter too. We can afford to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling without focusing on everyone else's. Yes, we can know a tree by its fruit. However, I don't go "fruit inspecting" through the entire list of Kellogg's employees before I determine whether or not to buy a box of Raisin Bran either.

In terms of Obamacare: We can continue pray for President Obama and all of those who supported the legislation and still disagree with the legislation itself. We can keep our faith in Christ and still oppose the legislation. We can even share our voice (via a vote) in November while simultaneously and wholeheartedly seeking the face of the Lord.

Hi Brothertom,

I can't really make a determination about whether or not America has ever truly had a Christian president. I am just too aware of the limits to my judgment and wisdom than to make any such assumption or presumption. We can't speak with them or examine ALL of their writings during EVERY part of their lives. Regardless, I am convinced that there have been presidents who held to Christian values in regard to certain policies and principles.

By the way, I think that it is very important that we don't meander into making certain presumptions when there is room for being incorrect regarding such men. For instance, there is no proof that Obama is a Muslim. He denies it. He has said that he is a "Christian" -- even if it is more along the lines of a Liberation Theology advocate. So, we should be careful about voicing accusations that might not be true...or, at least, identify them as being potentially true or false.

As for matters of moral conviction: Morality and immorality can certainly be measured by the faith that we hold while not being indicative of actual faith. There are many "moral" individuals in the world...and there are some "immoral" individuals in some churches. And, yes, there have been some "good" Presidents and some not-so-good. I believe that the "choice" is not in finding a "perfect" man or Christian for the job, but deciding which one (by collective decisions, policy promises and goals) might be the better choice for the next four years in this government of consent.

I understand why some might not vote...even if I personally feel this to be a very important reason to share a voice that will have immediate impact on our families, neighbors and churches. Still, I will likely vote in November. I won't be choosing a pastor...or a perfect candidate. However, I will be going to God in prayer on election day and seek Him before and after the election.

And the American church is rejecting Crist for a Mormon to deliver them. What will be her grief and misery.

I don't know anyone who is rejecting Christ for a Mormon -- including those who might feel inclined to vote for Mitt Romney.

Who do you know who is doing this? Or, are you just voicing a personal concern by claiming that the Body of Christ in America is somehow rejecting Christ because some might choose to vote?

QUOTE: "Ok, bottom line is he basically took a neutral position in a very crafty manner. If he were to have struck it down, he would have made enemies with the Democrats, he did not want to do that, and eventually if the Republicans can take over the Presidency,and the House and Senate, come November they can repeal the tax law. So right now for the folks that know this, it's a win/win situation for all, now come November "if" the Republicans take over,..."==MRBILLPRO

So all i hear you saying here is that Roberts is self-serving, basically. He just didn't want to offend the Dems. And the key word in the rest of your explanation is "IF". IF Romney becomes president, IF the bill gets repealed. And even IF it is repealed, the Dems can always bring the law back again in the future if/when THEY take office, can't they? No, i don't see anything "brilliant" about Robert's vote at all. I think he is a traitor.

On the matter of voting in this fall's election, well i don't intend to vote. I will just stay home and pray, if i can even figure out what to pray for in this election. I refuse to vote for Romney (as much because of his habit of lying as because of his cult involvement) and i refuse to vote for the baby murderer and pro-sodomite Obama. Maybe during this year's election i will just pray that my life ends before things get too much worse in this country (which i know they will). It has been a hard life, from day one, and i have never seen "good times". I truly believe that God has given this country over and if all this (Obama and other ungodly men, homosex, relativism, humanism, etc) is what they want then this is what He is going to give them.

Chris why bother to explain. You would not understand.

Why would you even suggest such a thing, brother? You made a blanket allegation about the American church and those who might choose to vote in the next election. Then, when asked for clarity, you told me that I would not understand.

Brother, we must be careful about making such statements. If we choose to voice allegations like this in a public forum, then we must be willing to respond to any request for clarity.

It might help to consider just how it feels if someone were to use similar rhetoric toward those who don't feel the same as others do.

What if someone implied that those who believe as you do (in regard to the election) were somehow less spiritual, spiritually out-of-touch or in obvious error...and, when asked for clarity, they stated that such individuals "wouldn't understand?" Do you see how such words could be perceived as condescending on a forum such as this?

This isn't just true of things like Obamacare or elections. We all must pray carefully before we post and contemplate whether our words might contain pride, selfishness or even whether they produce life or death. Sometimes, our views change over time as the Lord leads us into maturity. However, words posted on a public forum have a tendency to live on long after they are posted.

We are not the people that we were just a few years ago. We have each grown in our relationship and knowledge of the Lord and His Word. Yet, we just can't go back and edit those words. Thus, when we make strongly-worded statements or generalizations, we must do so knowing that they might echo for many years to come...and by eyes of individuals that we may never meet.

We can always "agree to disagree" (as the old adage says). However, there is a danger in considering others of somehow forsaking Christ simply because they have a different conclusion than the one that we adhere to in non-essential matters.

Have we forgotten this man is a Mormon? Have we forgotten that Mormonism is a cult? Have we forgotten that Mormonism is rooted in Satanism?

Well said.

QUOTE: " And the American church is rejecting Crist for a Mormon to deliver them. What will be her grief and misery."==BEARMASTER

This is just what i am thinking(not REJECTING Christ, but failing to trust Him or look to HIM instead). Now after this Obamacare beast has been passed into law, Conservatives and a few Independents are going to feel more compelled than ever to vote for Romney. What if the best thing to do is to NOT vote at all, and just stay home and pray for the country? Personally, i am NOT planning to vote.I won't vote for a man of low character and low integrity, regardless of religion, and that is what i believe both candidates to be.

It may interest some to know that political analysts are saying that Romney is never going to repeal Obamacare like everyone thinks (and like he has promised to) because he himself passed a similar bill in his own state of Mass.that also has an individual MANDATE. In fact, it was Romney who showed it could be done!!And for him to repeal it would put millions of elderly and others back into poverty and without their medications,etc.

Frankly, i don't have a problem with the bill i guess EXCEPT for the individual MANDATE.I hate anything where the government FORCES me to BUY anything.They do NOT have that right.EVER. I am hoping/thinking that if Romney gets into office that he and others will do some tweaking, but i certainly am not going to vote for the man. I am just going to stay home and pray. GOD RULES.

P.S. There are those who are saying that Justice John Roberts was just making a "brilliant" move and setting things up for a bigger win of some kind down the road, and that he is supposedly being very clever. And they think he handed Romney a win. I don't know bout that. Unless Roberts want to be his running mate or something.Defeating this bill would have made Obama look weak by giving him a huge loss for his presidency, and THAT would have helped Romney fine.

Also, it may interest you to know that according to wikipedia, the very Catholic John Roberts once did pro bono work for gay rights advocates while he worked in private practice for Hogan & Hartson lawfirm, including preparing arguments for the 1996 case "Romer vs. Evans which was described as "the movement's most important legal victory". So is he really a staunch Conservative??