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The great persecution that is soon to come upon the Church

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sermonindex

Hi Saints, I would like to speak about a subject that really has been the driving force behind much of what I have written in the last few years and this piece will be of no surprise to those who have read even a small amount of what I have written. Obviously I am not of the pre-trib rapture position. And that is the last you will hear me mention any such phrases because I believe if we use certain phrases then we simply get pigeon- holed. Enough to say that I would soundly reject the very premise of the ” Left behind” series. We will go through the great tribulation and we will suffer and most of us who are alive at that time will be martyred.

Now, the many positions that Christians take on last days are well documented. I would encourage everyone to read the Scriptures and allow the Holy Spirit to lead and guide you into the truth. Do not follow men and the teachings of men on these matters. You must be convinced in your spirit of these things that are shortly to come to pass. Now, as one who went to Bible school and who aced his ” premillennial dispensationalism,” class ( should have got the A just for being able to say and spell it) I could certainly give you the historical views of the three main positions and would also be able to tell you about the birth of dispensationalism and the pre-trib-rapture theory. But, I am not going to do that. You can certainly do the research yourself and come to your own conclusions. As I said, ultimately the Holy Spirit has to teach you and lead you and guide you. In this article I am just going to share with you my burden and what I believe is shortly to come to pass. You, of course, are free to agree or to disagree or take what you will and leave the rest.

I believe that persecution is coming to the Church, the Remnant, whoever truly belongs to Jesus. I do not believe that God’s hand will be stayed in this because I believe that He has His purpose and that it is part of the prophetic calendar. So let me lay out for you how I ” see,” the times that are approaching. There is something that we call Christendom. To me, that is everything that calls itself by the name of Christ. This would include every denomination, including Catholics, Pentecostals, Baptists, Evangelicals a host of Non-denominational churches and the man in the street who does not go to any church but if you were to push him, he would call himself either a believer or a Christian.

Now let me say plainly, I believe that only a very small percentage of that which calls itself Christian is in fact true born-again, new creatures in Christ, sold out disciples of Jesus. Various men have given numbers over the years, Ravenhill once said that he reckoned only 7% of professing Christians in America were actually Christians. The truth is, I have no idea. I do know that Jesus said that many were called but few were chosen and that the road to heaven was a narrow one and few there were that found it. That’s not so complicated and I see no need to complicate it further by adding to what Jesus said.

And so, how will the persecution come about and who will persecute the saints of God, martyring them and believing they are doing God a favor by doing it? Well, I believe that the vast majority of Christendom that is not saved will soon morph into the great whore church. What is this great whore church? Well it will be a church that will bring together the major religions of the world under one roof. Islam, Judaism and Christianity will join together under a false prophet who will testify to the authenticity of the man of peace, the anti-Christ. Tumultuous circumstances in the world will give rise to this anti-Christ. People of every nation will be mesmerized by him and by his displays of power. Only the saints will not falL for this grand delusion. And as they refuse to follow him they become the targets of hatred of the world in general and specifically the religious.

Now I believe that there will be a direct correlation between the rise of persecution of the pouring out of God’s Spirit upon His people. What will come first I do not know. I lean towards persecution coming first and God pouring His Spirit into His people in order for them to deal with this, yet I also believe that prior to the beginnings of the great tribulation that God will pour out His Spirit upon His people in measure and that this will really be the beginnings of a deep hatred from the religious people. You see, there are many who desire to see a great outpouring of His Spirit but there are few who embrace the cross of Calvary, few who embrace the hard narrow path of the Word of God.

And so who amongst us can embrace a God that has martyrdom in mind for us? Some may see this kind of thinking as some kind of doom and gloom preaching. Yet, the people who I am writing this article too know very well that this is not so. You see, the Bride-groom is coming back for His bride the Church. We know that the time is short. And so we would celebrate the end of the ages because the Lord is coming. We know that we have been walking through a dry and thirsty land, a land in the midst of famine, and whatever it takes for God to pour out His Spirit in power, then the child of God embraces that. If it takes a mighty confrontation on the mountain for the rain to come , then so it must be. If the word has to go out ” choose ye this day whom you will serve,” then that word must go out. If the five virgins without oil must be warned then they must be warned. If there is a generation of saints that are alive at the culmination of the ages and that generation has to be us, then praise the Lord for He knows what He is doing.

Saints, we know that we do not battle against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers. When those principalities and powers know that their time is short, what would we expect from such a great darkness? If God increases the light in His children, if He pours out His Spirit as in the latter rains, what would we expect the enemy of our souls to do? Sit idly by? No, we know that there is a time coming such as has never been before. The time is coming when every child of God will be hunted down and killed by the anti-Christ. Yet I want you to know that this scenario also includes the filling of saints in such a fashion that they could not even imagine. The power that we will have will be the power to resist the greatest evil that the world has ever seen. We will be filled with a hell-shaking love, the same hell destroying love that we witnessed on Calvary. The same hell shaking love that we saw in our brother Stephen as he was stoned to death.

If you have ever experienced the presence of God, the manifest presence of God then the scenario of being filled with such perfect love that casts out all fear is one that is to be relished. To walk in the power of our Lord, to walk in the Spirit in such a fashion that has yet to be witnessed on the earth, this is a glorious prospect for God’s children. The genuine saint has spent all of his walk with the Lord with an earnest desire to be more like Him. Genuine persecution and refining fire only kills the flesh in us, it does nothing to the Spirit of God in us. And so the more the genuine saint is persecuted, the more of Christ the world will see. As the world comes against us with all of the fury of hell behind it, it will only see a greater expression of Jesus. This is the paradox, the irony, the ultimate weakness of evil, the ultimate triumph of good over evil.

Now brothers and sisters, are we that people? Can you say that the desire of your life is to be more like Jesus and to follow Him? Do you love Him above all else? Are you worthy to be His disciple? Now is the time to have your Gethsemane. The battle of Calvary was won in the garden of Gethsemane. Will you turn back when these things begin to unfold? And so the question bears repeating ” Who amongst us can embrace a God that has called us to martyrdom?” Remember, when it became clear that the Lord Jesus was to become a suffering servant, one who was to be despised by the multitude, rejected, humiliated, tortured and then crucified, how many stood with Him? If you have to face the same things in the coming persecution, will you still stand with Him? Jesus urged His disciples to pray because He knew what was about to come to pass, He Himself prayed and overcame the flesh in the garden before the time came and He found victory in the Garden. He had made up His mind that He would bow to the will of His Father. Can you do the same now saint? Can you make up your mind now that come what may, if events of the end time are not how you supposed them to be or have been taught that they will be, that never-the-less you will bow to the will of your Father and embrace the God that calls you to martyrdom?

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Agreed brother. God grant we be ready for the coming persecution. God grant us grace to perservere during the coming persecution..

Bear.

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Thank your for your bold word brother. The Lord is putting on my heart to write a short book on this same subject. May His church be ready for the coming storm. May God raise up a sound of warning from many different areas of His church!

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Amen bro, look forward to seeing that. I have a book coming out in about six weeks. I have shared many of the poems that the Lord has laid on my heart right on SI, so the book will be a poem for every psalm with part two of the book on the presence of God. I pray that the Lord will honor your bold subject matter for the upcoming conference, very timely bro............brother Frank

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sermonindex

China and Iran stand as some of the most hostile environments to the gospel. Yet the gospel is flourishing in these two countries. Revival if you will.

It may take an environment of persecution to bring revival to the church in America.

Bearmaster.

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staff

Hi Apollus,
You have put your views forward in an understandable way.
Here are some of my mainly opposing points.
When people say soon it seems to turn from soon to not so soon to its a relative term.I am not a post tribulation believer but even if we do go through the tribulation we will be protected from God's Wrath which is the most excepted teaching.Where will this protected place be and can we be persecuted while we are under the protection from his wrath.

Jesus gave two examples Lot and Noah,in both their was some persecution more with Lot than with Noah.No Judgement could come until both Lot and Noah were taken out first.In both cases their was no one left to persecute them.
You quote:
No, we know that there is a time coming such as has never been before. The time is coming when every child of God will be hunted down and killed by the anti-Christ

A Major type of the Anti Christ is Ahab in the book of Kings and this doesn't play out that way.Ahab is twarted at every turn by God through Elijah.
Nimrod another type is again twarted when building the tower,Ceasar another type of Anti Christ wasnt successful.
The Anti Christ victories are short lived and never satisfying to him.

One other thing their is in my eyes a morbid obsession with persecution in the sense that I believe some people on this site will be genuinely disappointed if persecution doesn't come similar to Jonah's disapointment when God was slow to pour out his wrath on Nineveh.We should be slow to want persecution for fellow Christians even if it eventually comes.Some Christians have had enough of prosperity based western Christianity and I relate strongly to that but God is more long suffering than us and is continually more gracious than we.

Jonah 4:11 And should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?”

Yours Staff

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sermonindex

IMO if things continue as they are for another handful of years the Church in the West will have a hard time getting arrested.

We are no longer on the radar on any meaningful level in North America. We are the Laodicean church.

Persecution? I think they will need to find us first.

Marc mc

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sermonindex

Broiyou say that some who speak on persecution will be disappointed if persecution does not come to the west. Bro persecutionis is already taking place. Pick up a VOM magazine or Barnabas Fund magazine and they report on persecution in the 1040 window. Have you heard of what is happening in Nigeria or Sudan. Read Compass Direct or Forum 18 News. Go to Christians in Crisis. The persecuted church is not a myth but real. Real enough that people are dying for Christ around the world.

If the persecuted church is real then what Frank writes will happen. What we see happening in Eritrea, Somilia, N. Korea, China, India, etc will happen here. Can you or someone explain to me why American Christians be exempt from persecution while others are spilling their blood for Christ. Jesus said if they persecuted me then they will persecute you.

For those who think persecution will not come to America. Then please explain away the persecuted church in the 1040 window.

Bearnaster.

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Hi Staff,

Your opinion is appreciated and it is obvious that we see things differently. God bless you..........bro Frank

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There are so many sincere brethren that will find out that we will be going through the tribulation, and suffering can be the tool that God uses to purify those not yet prepared, leading them to repentance.

Pastor Robert B. Thompson has been writing books on this topic for 30 years. He was slandered mightily for his Biblical teachings decades ago, and is rejoicing that God is opening so many Christian's eyes to the what the Bible says. His books are available for free and may be of assistance to those interested.

His sermons are available on this site and his church site, www.wor.org


Beth

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The areas in the world were persecution is very real is taking place because of the stand for Christ over against real reigns of man. Just as the early Church was persecuted because of a stand against the Roman Empire.

These stands are in fundemental opposition to the powers or governments of man. The North American Church loves the world and the security of the powers and governments of man. So until that changes the world listens to our beliefs and goes " Oh that's nice" while it's yawning.

Marc mc

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Trekker

Appolus, i agree with everything you wrote. However, i have endured persecutions/abuse my entire life and i really don't know how i will be able to bear up under what is coming. I have never known anything BUT persecution and abuse from people everywhere my foot lands, so to say i am sick of it would be a great, great understatement. I have been persecuted/abused/hated just for existing, for being, and secondly also for standing up for right over wrong and against injustice. And thirdly also i have been hated & scorned for my Christian views and statements/beliefs/the cause of Christ. I am and have been hated with a near murderous hatred by even my own relatives (some of them out of jealousy and some of them because they listen to liars and gossips about me--and are liars and gossips themselves).

Those of you who have never experienced any kind of abuse and persecution i envy you. But i have had nearly an entire half-century of it and i have often thirsted for death. Yea, death would be the easy part. So i almost think i would rather go to war in defense of conservative values than stick around.

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sermonindex

HI Trekker. One of the questions that I asked in my piece was whether one could embrace a God that calls them to martyrdom? The question is a valid one brother and one we all must ask ourselves.

Now I am sure that you know something of the first several centuries of the Church? In fact, if one is tracing the Pilgrim Church, or call it the remnant Church or whatever name you choose to call Gods Church, Gods people here on earth, then you will find a suffering Church. All day long, like Lambs to the slaughter. Those who follow the Lord Jesus and have laid down their lives are no longer in the defending business. Their lives are not their own, they have been bought with a price, the precious Blood of Calvary. If we are living a life where we are ridiculed for Christ and persecuted for His sake then we are blessed, this of course is not my thoughts but what Scripture teaches. We are promised that we will have trials and tribulations in the world but we are to be of good cheer for we serve a Lord who has overcome the world.

To go on a war in defence of " conservative values," makes no sense brother. There is no calling in Scripture to go on such a war. What we do see down through the ages is the Holy Spirit burning in the persecuted saints to where they love and forgive their tormentors, like the Lord Jesus on the cross. Have you suffered as He did brother? And yet the Lord calls upon His Father to forgive them for they did not know what they were doing. This is the power of love, this is the power of rendering not evil for evil, this is the spirit of Stephen as he was being stoned. To love those who love us is one thing and natural, to love those who hate us is the power of Jesus Christ burning in us. God does not abandon us, in fact He never leaves us nor forsakes us. When we yield to His will, He fills us with His Spirit and His presence and in this we overcome.

I know a little of persecution Trekker. My mother became a born-again Christian when I was 7 in Scotland. From that moment, even although they had already been married for ten years, my father began to beat her severly for her faith. I saw her beaten 1000 times. I saw countless blck eyes. I saw a broken jaw. I saw our front door being nailed shut with six inch nails to stop her going to church. I lived where the Bible had to be hidden, and if found, ripped to shreds, drowned, or thrown out of the window. For the whole of my child-hood I was hated for my love of Jesus, not by strangers, but by my father, while he embraced my other two siblings. I realize that it really achieves nothing in sharing these stories brother but I want you to know that I loved and now love my earthly father. My mother taught me that, and the Holy Spirit brought it to pass. So in this small way, I know a little of what I speak, it is not mere theory. The burning hell shaking love overcomes the darkness. This is the power of God, this is the power of Calvary and this is the spirit and the presence that God will pour out in a mighty way. Ten thousand times ten thousand of Stephens walking the land in the power of God and a true demonstration of the Lord Jesus Christ and His victory in Cakvary. Would you agree with me that this world desperately needs to witness a genuine witness of the Lord Jesus? I am sure you know that the Greek translation for martyr is witness?

You will stick around brother until the Lord deems to take you home. And in that time you can either be a genuine witness of Gods hell shattering love or you can pick your war......... but you cant do both. May the Lord bless you brother and draw you to Himself............bro Frank

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Lysa

by 100fold

There are so many sincere brethren that will find out that we will be going through the tribulation, and suffering can be the tool that God uses to purify those not yet prepared, leading them to repentance.

Pastor Robert B. Thompson has been writing books on this topic for 30 years. He was slandered mightily for his Biblical teachings decades ago, and is rejoicing that God is opening so many Christian's eyes to the what the Bible says. His books are available for free and may be of assistance to those interested.

His sermons are available on this site and his church site, www.wor.org


I've read his writings and agree with you. I also love that all of it is FREE and a free download.

God bless you, hope you come back!
Lisa

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sermonindex

Brother not trying to be funny or unsympathetic to your post I envy you. God has been preparing you for what is coming. I have not experienced what you and Frank have suffered. Oh I have had a few run ins with organized religion here and there. But nothing I would call persecution. That is why I ask God to grant me grace to endure what is coming.

Brother I encourage you check out Hebrews 12:.3. The exhortation is to consider Jesus who has endured such opposition from sinful men so that you may not grow weary and lose heart. Actually the whole book of Hebrews us an encouragement to the persecuted.

Praying God to encourage you brother.

Bear

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pilgrim777

If we cannot embrace a God who calls us to die daily then we will not be able to embrace a God who calls us to martyrdom. If we love our life (lifestyle) so much that we seek to save it (as many are doing), then we will lose our life (and we are losing our lifestyle, anyway).

To see if the "Church" is ready for the coming persecution, which means that they must love their enemies and do good to them that persecute them, check first to see if the brethren are loving one another. Check and see if YOU are loving the brethren.

This will be an indication of how the "brethren" will fair during persecution. I don't think it will be a pretty picture in America. Persecution in America will obliterate all the "grey" areas and the "fence sitters". Finally, you will see in black and white who the Christians are and who the religious are. There will be those that are faithful to Jesus Christ and will love their enemies. The others, will rise up to fight their "enemies". And those that rise up will in many cases see their enemies as the True Church. This is what history shows us.

Gone will be the Calvinistic or Arminian platitudes. Gone will be all the theological debates. The true Christians will be known by their love not their theological knowledge or who their favorite preacher is. Those that love their enemies and are willing to die for a God that they cannot see, yet love will be the ones that God uses to spark and endtimes harvest of souls.

Brother will betray brother...
Much of the religious system will be the persecutors of the children of God as has been the case down through the centuries. The religious system will employ the various forces of the world to be their "strong man".

Those who have aligned themselves with the world and love the world, will stay aligned with the worldly church.

Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Luk 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.

It will turn to you for a testimony...

God has always used the persecution of His people as an opportunity to save many others and test our hearts and purify His Bride. Is our life our own? Have we been bought with a price? Can the Lord do what He wants with our lives? Are we willing to submit to His will even if it means having all your possessions taken away, your place in society taken away, being mocked and hated by your "friends" and possibly martyred? Don't be deceived. If you are not submitting to His Lordship daily, dying daily, suffering persecution now (beware when all men speak well of you), then you will probably not want the stronger dose of medicine that is coming.

I encourage everyone to read/watch The Hiding Place to see how a perfectly nice life can turn into hell and notice the metamorphisis that people go through. Notice, what happens to people's hearts (do they turn towards God or away from Him).

"Hell is not so deep that He is not deeper still." Corrie Ten Boom

If you want to overcome?
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. (Jude 1:21)

Historically, does anyone know what happened to Laodicea?

Pilgrim

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staff

Hi Appolus,
You disagree that Ahab,Nimrod or Ceasar are not types of the Anti Christ?or that Jesus used Lot and Noah as examples of his second coming?surely not!
Yours Staff

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staff

Hi Bearmaster,
You quote
What we see happening in Eritrea, Somilia, N. Korea, China, India,
I dont consider these countries part of the western church.
Maybe some of the people could go to these countries and they might be more happy .
I disagree with this "Jonah Attitude" of wanting persecution.
Jesus gave Lot and Noah examples of his coming and Lot was particularly persecuted before they were taken but no Judgement came until they were taken out.
Ahab in particular explains alot about the Anti Christ and shows that he has weak flaws in his character and is twarted by God at every turn,
Yours Staff

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ADisciple

Pilgrim said, "Brother will betray brother... Much of the religious system will be the persecutors of the children of God as has been the case down through the centuries."

This is an emphasis that has been overlooked in the recent threads on persecution coming to "the western church." The general emphasis has been on persecution coming against the church from outside it.

What about the persecution that comes from "the church" when Christ vindicates His own with His Spirit and Presence?

Allan


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sermonindex

Brother where do you get this disctinction in the New Testament of the western church and everybody else? According to Eph. the church is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way. The church is an organic reality that spans time and space. The church consist of those believers who have put their faith in Jesus in times past and present. Those are believers from every race, tribe, language, and people as Rev. 7 tells us. So in God's eyes there is no western or eastern or northern or southern church. It is the body. Period.

I mentioned the countries of Eritrea and N. Korea because persecution is a way of life for these saints. For them to take the name of Jesus and follow him is certains imprisonment and even death. Do you think they wish this and delight in this in some morbid way?. No. But they realize this is what being a disciple of Jesus is all about. This is what Jesus taught of those who would follow him. Pick up your cross and follow me. Bonhoffer said when Christ bids a man to come to him. He bids him to come and die.

Brother you seem to have this mistaken notion we are wishing for persecution. Nobody is wishing for it. Nobody is asking for it. But watchman are warning the American church of upcoming persecution. And since American believers gave no history of persecution we need to heed their warnings.

Respectfully Bearmaster.

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ADisciple

"Brother where do you get this disctinction in the New Testament of the western church and everybody else?"

Bearmaster, I simply meant that Christians in many other places of the world are already facing persecution. It's not news to them that persecution is coming. For them it's already there. In any case you'll notice I placed "western church" in quotation marks, not being comfortable with that phrase. I should rather have said, "churches in the western world."

"Brother you seem to have this mistaken notion we are wishing for persecution."

...Not sure how you picked that up.

You said, "So in God's eyes there is no western or eastern or northern or southern church. It is the body. Period."

But then you said, "But watchman are warning the American church of upcoming persecution."

Aren't you contradicting yourself? :) If there is no western church (and I agree that there isn't) how can there be an "American church"?

Allan

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sermonindex

Brother I think you confused my response to Staff as thinking I was responding to you. Easy to do in a thread with multiple posters. Yes, I probably am contradicting myself in referring to the American church. But I was addressing the distinctions in something he said in one of his earlier post

Sorry for the confusion.

Bear.

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sermonindex

Good post Pilgrim. As for Laodicea, it went on , in the fourth century, to become a " see," for a Bishop meaning this city was the seat of power for a Bishop. It was very much a part of the history of the early Catholic Church. Seems like it did not heed the warnings given by John. ............bro Frank

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ADisciple

Bearmaster said, "Brother I think you confused my response to Staff as thinking I was responding to you."

Looking back, I see that this is what I did. Your response came after mine, but you were responding to Staff's earlier post. I see now where you were coming from.

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lindi1208

Hi saints

As I have been reading this thread, I was reminded of a discussion I had about a month ago with friends and family. We were talking about false prophets and false teachings! I was defending and contending for the faith!

My husband who is unsaved then turned around and said to me " I wonder if you will still profess Christ and say you love and follow Him when they come to kill you Will you still say Jesus is Lord".

I thought I'd share this in light of the topic about persecution. It is interesting that this statement about being killed for your faith came from someone who is unsaved! Yet we still have many believers who do not believe that persecution and martyrdom is coming. I believe that God through His Spirit is sending his message to His Church to prepare herself for the coming persecution. And He will do so faithfully in keeping with His Word that the Holy Spirit will tell us of things to come! It is up to each one to either hear what The Lord is laying on the hearts of many or reject it.

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staff

Hi Bearmaster,
I am not disputing what the church is,the western church term has been introduced by others.
What watchmen?What proof have they that persecution is coming to the west?
When is it coming?Do you or other peoples view of how and when Jesus comes back have any influence on your view that persecution is coming(to the America)?
Have any of these watchmen made prophesys regarding a soon coming persecution?What would you consider soon?
Giving your life to Christ /picking up your doesn't mean martyrdom in most cases.Everybody has to die to self.
Yours respectfully Staff

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pilgrim777

Pilgrim said, "Brother will betray brother... Much of the religious system will be the persecutors of the children of God as has been the case down through the centuries."

This is an emphasis that has been overlooked in the recent threads on persecution coming to "the western church." The general emphasis has been on persecution coming against the church from outside it.

What about the persecution that comes from "the church" when Christ vindicates His own with His Spirit and Presence?

Allan

Hi Allan,

Good to see you again. I think any conference, simulcast, webinar, home fellowship, etc, etc, must not ignore that religionists, also known as those born after the flesh always persecute those who are born after the Spirit. Not talking about this would be a giant omission since we see this from Genesis to Revelation.

Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Cain wanted God to receive him on his terms. Cain would not come to God on God's terms. So, Cain slew Abel who was pleasing to God. And ever since Cain, you have had religionists persecuting those of the Spirit. The false church system persecuting God's people. The kingdom of the religious is on earth and as such, those of the Spirit always threaten their kingdom merely by existing and speaking the truth. They threaten their kingdom as David threatened Saul's Kingdom, not by attacking it, but by staying faithful to the Lord and speaking the truth.

God sent prophets to speak His words (the truth).

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

1Th 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

Another way to get ready for the coming persecution is to heed the Lord's voice when He tells you to "come out of her, my people".

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Yes, we are not children of wrath and do not incur the wrath of God.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

However, we have been promised persecution and tribulation but only if we are living godly lives.

2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Luke 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

God's people receive wrath from the children of the flesh.

As I mentioned before, one of the purposes of persecution is so the world will see the reality of Jesus Christ through His Church.

2Co 4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Pilgrim

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sermonindex

Brother I use the term watchman in a general sense. Not necessarily implying a specific prophesy or date to upcoming persecution. Men of the caliber if Art Katz, Denny Kenniston, David Wilkerson, and others whose sermons that are listed on this web site have indicated that persecution would come to America. The organizers of the upcoming SI conference in Atlanta will have men speaking on the topic of upcoming persecution. Men who feel in their spirits that persecution of believers will come to America. These are the watchman I refer to.

Staff why do you think the church in America will be spared from persecution? If believers for Jesus are being persecuted and martyred around the world, why must God spare us? This makes no sense. What makes the American church so special that God would spare us what saints in N. Korea or Nigeria go through? Brother I say gently such an attitude is pretty arrogant. That being the American church being spared from persecution. Is the American church going to sail to heaven on flowery beds of ease while the persecuted church in other parts of the world sailed through stormy seas?

Also Staff with the corruption that permeates the American churc, persecution may be God's refining fire that purifies her.

Respectfully Bearmaster.

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pilgrim777

Adding to my previous post. Not only can we not ignore the children of the flesh that have persecuted the children of the Spirit as seen in the Scriptures, but we cannot ignore the religionists (children of the flesh) that persecuted the Church the last 2,000 years, too. This is in keeping with their true nature which is the nature of their father, the Devil.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

He was a murderer from the beginning...

These will continue to be the predominant persecutors till Jesus comes and that is why ignoring this would be a glaring omission in any discussion of "coming persecution".

The American religious system is arguably the most grossly religious system in history displacing Christ of His true Headship and wherever there is such a religious system there will be persecution. This is how you know there will be persecution in America.

Pilgrim

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staff

Hi Bearmaster,
I am not American and from the outside looking in I can see some terrible stuff going on in the American Church that needs rectifying.
The reason I ask those questions is to find out what people are basing their belief that persecution is coming soon.
Their is persecution going on around the world but there are places also that their is not.This is not enough to support a belief that persecution is coming soon.
And no the American Church will not sail to heaven on flowery beds and I strongly believe God will deal with the American Church.The American church is not anymore special than any other as far as I know.
My point is that the reasons behind the belief that Persecution is coming SOON are not based on the right things.
I think that people are basing their belief of a coming persecution on these things.
1.The bad state of if not all at least parts of the American Church
2.Some people want to call down fire and brimstone to solve the problem.Like Jonah wanted.
3.What you believe the end times scenario is.In this case almost all who comment believe we will go through the tribulation.Then it is natural to be looking for when its coming.
If you are saying that persecution is coming it should not be based on the above 3 things.
You quote:
Men who feel in their spirits that persecution of believers will come to America

Because men feel in their spirits that persecution is coming to America is not good enough to proclaim " that Persecution is coming to America soon"
Our Standard for proclaiming such things has to be at its highest otherwise when it doesn't happen we are put to shame.

I want what you want for Jesus to deal with the problems in the US church and I believe he will,it obviously cant go on but to jump to the conclusion "persecution is coming soon"is not correct
Yours Staff

T
TMK

Staff-- I agree with you- but for different reasons.

Comparing the USA to N Korea or China or Muslim countries is not fair. The USA is a different country with freedoms. I just cant see the govt beating down our doors to arrest Christians any time soon. We are a free country, still with certain liberties. Other countries mentioned are the antithesis of this.

I am not saying that persecution might not come-- it may. But soon is indeed a very vague term.

Art Katz taught that JEWS were going to be persecuted stronger than they were in the 30s and 40s, and that the Western Church's main task will be to take in and protect fleeing Jews. He felt that Christians will be persecuted for protecting Jews. This hardly seems possible at this point in time, but i could envisage a scenario where it might happen.

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pilgrim777

You have made some very good points, Staff. Persecution usually comes when those who name the Name of Jesus are living Godly lives.

By and large, that is not happening in America, hence no persecution. And we can clearly see that not only from the New Testament but the Old Testament, too.

So, first things first. We must live Godly lives. What is there to persecute without Godly living? The False, Worldly Church gets along great with the world so they will not receive any persecution from the world. And if True Christians are comfortable in the False, Worldly Church then they will not receive any persecution from the religious system.

Jesus was not friendly with the religious system.

If you look around the world to those who are receiving persecution, it is those that are standing uncompromisingly strong for the Gospel and the Lord Jesus.

When we are friends with the world, Satan has accomplished his goal and there is no need for persecution. He only persecutes those who are living godly because he works through people.

Pilgrim

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sermonindex

HI Pilgrim,

I am sure that you can see from the OP that I touched on where the persecution will come from. I also posted a piece called "The Saul Spirit is rising," back in 2009 which talks about this subject direclty......bro Frank

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=32010&forum=40&9

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staff


Hi I am watching Carter Conlon on tv now which is great because I am on the other side of the Atlantic.I see that his sermon is on the website as well.Here is the link

"I know what your calling is"
http://media.sermonindex.net/23/SID23452.mp3

Perhaps this timely sermon is saying what I want to say.

Also thank God not every Tv Pastor from the US comes across as a religious nut.
He is talking about Mercy and Judgement.
He is saying that it is time for God to Judge but he doesn't want too.God still wants extend a season of Mercy.

yours Staff

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pilgrim777

Hi Appolus,

If there are no David's (A Lukewarm Church) then the spirit of Saul will not rise up and persecute. As long as Saul is the center of attention, the one who has killed his thousands (successful in building his kingdom and getting men to follow him), and is not threatened by a David (killed his ten thousands - people leaving Saul to follow him/Christ), then there is nothing to persecute.

That is what Laodicea is. Lukewarm, Saul based church rather than Christocentric church.

We must have godly, holy living and the topic might well be, "When Will the Church Turn Away from the World and Live Godly?" Then we will know when persecution comes.

This is the chapter where Israel rejected God for Saul.

1Sa 10:19 And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us. Now therefore present yourselves before the LORD by your tribes, and by your thousands.

Then Samuel told the people the manner of the kingdom:

1Sa 10:25 Then Samuel told the people the manner of the kingdom, and wrote it in a book, and laid it up before the LORD. And Samuel sent all the people away, every man to his house.

And here is what Samuel said the manner of the kingdom would be:

1Sa 8:10 And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king.
1Sa 8:11 And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.
1Sa 8:12 And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots.
1Sa 8:13 And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers.
1Sa 8:14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.
1Sa 8:15 And he will take the tenth (modern day tithe of the religious system being prophesied) of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.
1Sa 8:16 And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work.
1Sa 8:17 He will take the tenth (tithe)of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants.
1Sa 8:18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.
1Sa 8:19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;
1Sa 8:20 That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.
1Sa 8:21 And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he rehearsed them in the ears of the LORD.
1Sa 8:22 And the LORD said to Samuel, Hearken unto their voice, and make them a king. And Samuel said unto the men of Israel, Go ye every man unto his city.

As you can see, SAUL is making a well-oiled religious system that is not based on faith and God's provision. It is a "DOING" system as he needs plenty of workers to build HIS Kingdom. Contrast that to God's kingdom which is a BEING Kingdom. His Being/Spirit in us, bearing fruit as we walk in love and obedience. Saul's kingdom takes advantage of his fellow brethren. God does not.

I am saying this: AS LONG AS THE CHILDREN OF GOD ARE COMFORTABLE WITH SAUL THERE WILL BE NO PERSECUTION.

David did not stay. He fled with a REMNANT of men and lived in the wilderness.

And what is up with this?

1Sa 10:26 And Saul also went home to Gibeah; and there went with him a band of men, whose hearts God had touched.

I used to think that these men were going to help SAUL see the light, but I have no idea what happened to these men. I know it is not possible to change the religious system but many are hopeful. These men should have fled with David. I never hear of another thing about these men "whose hearts God had touched."

What do you think God is trying to tell to us? Stay with Saul or flee like David did?

Pilgrim

T
TMK

pilgrim wrote:
"If you look around the world to those who are receiving persecution, it is those that are standing uncompromisingly strong for the Gospel and the Lord Jesus."

This is true.. thank goodness they are standing firm. But the reason they are persecuted for "standing firm" is because it is ILLEGAL to be a Christian in those countries.

I think it is unfair to guess how the USA/Canadian church would react if it were suddenly declated ILLEGAL to be a Christian. I think there is a good possibility that the USA/Canadian church just might rise to the occasion, with the grace of God.

It seems there are 2 different types of persecution: 1) Official persecution-- meaning the State says if they catch you practicing Christianity you are going to jail, or worse; or 2) The true church is so on fire that the false church cannot tolerate same because the true church shines light on the corruption of the false church.

It is obviously not the "western" church's fault that Chritianity is not illegal, yet. We can't expect persecution from that source. There may be blame placed on the true church for not experiencing the 2nd type of persecution, but that is a little more complicated to analyze because who knows-- if the true church caught on serious fire, it might spread to the sleeping church.

Wouldn't that be awesome?

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sermonindex

If a first century believer reading the Revelation that John wrote in his day were to read the words, "Shortly come to pass", he would have thought that the words that were being spoken in that book were going to happen shortly.

If he got to the end of the book where it reads, "Behold, I come quickly", he would have thought that Jesus was coming quickly.

When we use those same words today in our writings, has anyone ever wondered about the first century believer who read that? Was God out to confuse His children?

When Jesus said that He was going to visit Lazarus in a few days, was that few days thousands of years, or did He really mean just a few days? Strange how we spiritualize some parts of what Jesus said and choose not for others.

How dare us use the same words of the Apostle John in describing our day and say, "Shortly come to pass". How dare we! Wasn't the first century believer important?

When the Angel told Daniel to seal the book, the Angel said that the fulfillment of what he saw was going to be long, from the time he saw it to whatever time it was fulfilled.

But John wasn't told it was going to be long, he was told it was going to take place shortly, and quickly. Since it wasn't going to be long, who are we to change the conditions of this document and how it shall play out? We accept Daniels "Long" but we can't accept Johns "Shortly".

Our minds are so carnal. We are using a broken mind to create images of how we believe things will occur and those images and pictures have been passed down from generation to generation and God can't plant anything any of His own ideas or pictures because we've been set to believe what we have been told is true.

For example, the coming of the Lord is so set in our minds of how it will be that we can't think any other way. Anyone touching that thinking is ostracized.

We say that we should be taught of the Holy Ghost. What if I told you that I was taught of the Holy Ghost in that He has caused me to see and believe? I was a willing vessel waiting for fresh ideas and pictures. He came and stripped me of everything that I had come to believe was true and replaced them with a different picture, one that is totally contrary of what everyone else thinks. Yet what He showed me is not a private interpretation, it's there in black and white. That is the scary part. It's so plain yet it's stumbled over and over again. I believe it's because our minds are already convinced of what we think will happen that God can't plant anything more in there. The other has to go before God can insert His thoughts on the matter. Even mentioning what I am mentioning daggers are already pointed at me as false. That is why I don't say much on this subject here because it's not readily received.

As far as Tribulation and Persecution is concerned your spot on, that really goes without saying. They that live Godly in this life will suffer persecution. Which means that to answer your question of which will come first, persecution or a move of God, the move of God will come first then the persecution. We know this because of what the bible says concerning the revivals that took place. There was such mass conversion that it required a response from the religious leaders, persecution was their answer and not just any persecution but a great one which caused the Church to flee (which was Gods will, God doesn't want us to congregate in one spot, He wants us to branch out). When the Church fled they began to proselyte wherever they ended up at. I like that don't you?


Now brothers and sisters, are we that people? Can you say that the desire of your life is to be more like Jesus and to follow Him? Do you love Him above all else? Are you worthy to be His disciple? Now is the time to have your Gethsemane. The battle of Calvary was won in the garden of Gethsemane. Will you turn back when these things begin to unfold? And so the question bears repeating ” Who amongst us can embrace a God that has called us to martyrdom?” Remember, when it became clear that the Lord Jesus was to become a suffering servant, one who was to be despised by the multitude, rejected, humiliated, tortured and then crucified, how many stood with Him? If you have to face the same things in the coming persecution, will you still stand with Him? Jesus urged His disciples to pray because He knew what was about to come to pass, He Himself prayed and overcame the flesh in the garden before the time came and He found victory in the Garden. He had made up His mind that He would bow to the will of His Father. Can you do the same now saint? Can you make up your mind now that come what may, if events of the end time are not how you supposed them to be or have been taught that they will be, that never-the-less you will bow to the will of your Father and embrace the God that calls you to martyrdom?
A double Amen.

S
sermonindex

HI Pilgrim, to your first point, I think it may be moot because there are David's or, to put it another way, there is and always has and always will be a remnant, no matter the state of Christendom. Second point may be moot as well as David was not on the scene at that time. The children of Israel were given what their hearts desired and even then they quarrelled amongst themselves........ bro Frank

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pilgrim777

Hi Approved,

If you look at it spiritually, the Lord is always coming to us, shortly, because one way or another we are coming to Him. He came to me 35 years ago and many times since then.

He does come shortly...

He comes often without coming visibly. Do a search on the Bible on the phrase "the Lord cometh".

Pilgrim

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pilgrim777

Yes, Appolus, there has always been a remnant in every generation. They are exactly that, a remnant, not a majority.

The coming persecution will accelerate the leaving of Babylon by the Remnant.

Pilgrim

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sermonindex

We are walking a dangerous path when we deny the reality of persecution and suffering. This was seen in the Chinerse church after the communist takeover in the late 1940's. The Chinerse Christians followed the teachings if Darby and Scoffiekd. They believed they would be raptured before Mao took over. He did take over. The Christians were imprisoned or executed. Many Chinerse Christians lost their faith. Now this is why the Chinerse church teaches that suffering is part of following Jesus. The Chinerse don't call it suffering. But identification with Jesus.

Paul and Barnabas told the early believers that it is through many hardships they would enter the kingdom. This implied persecution. And this teaching is so needed in theme American church today.

Yet the American church has been brainwashed with the prosperity gospel and pretrib heresies. Just like the Chineese. Many American Christians will fall away from the faith.

God grant us grace to stand in the evil days ahead.

Bearmaster.

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sermonindex

Pilgrim writes............

"The coming persecution will accelerate the leaving of Babylon by the Remnant."

Yes indeed brother.............bro Frank

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sermonindex

Glad to see a few can tell the difference between the worldly western church and other areas of the world.

Some parts of the world the enemy uses persecution. And other parts he uses shopping malls and all you can eat buffets.

Marc mc

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Trekker

QUOTE: "Would you agree with me that this world desperately needs to witness a genuine witness of the Lord Jesus?"==APPOLUS

Yes, Frank, i agree. There are just times though that one gets so fed up. Nearly fifty years is a long time to suffer or to endure. But i know there are missionaries sitting in dungeons and prisons someplace right now who havent seen the light of day in years probably, so i guess i've got it good.
I need more faith but am afraid to ask for it cuz i am afraid of what God might do to me next!

Your childhood sounds like it was a nightmare. I'm sorry.

T
Trekker

QUOTE: "Some parts of the world the enemy uses persecution. And other parts he uses shopping malls and all you can eat buffets."==MARCMC

Shopping malls and cable tv and Christmas and Easter and Halloween and schools and libraries and pretty much everything...

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sermonindex

Brother there is one major difference. In those areas of the world where the devil is using persecution the church is growing. Even thriving. I offer China and Iran as examples. Though the church is under persecution in these countries. The church is adding many souls to the kingdom.

One example us Iran. In 1979 there were less than 500 believers under the relative freedom of the Shaw. After the Islamic revolution in 1979 a gospel revolution took place. Now now 32 years later estimates range between 100,000 believers to 1,000,000 secret believers in Iran. Despite crackdowns and imprisonments, the Iranian church grows at a staggering rate. One ministry estimates over 500 to a thousand people a day are coming to Christ. I heard an Iranian believer say it takes an average of 5 or 6 minutes.to bring a ormal Persian to Christ. Maybe 10 it 12 minutes for a hard liner. Most of the converts are young, under thirty, and hungry for Jesus. I might add the Iranian government is worried about the spread of the gospel. But they cannot stop it.

Compare theis against the shopping malls and buffets.

Bearmaster.

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sermonindex

Yes, there is a difference between the 1040 window church and the American church. Namely one is growing and thriving and that under persecution. We see this in the first century church. The more the devil persecuted it the more it grew. It was when the devil shifted tactics and made Christianity acceptable under Constantine that the church stopped growing. It became the persecutor instead of the persecuted.

I am afraid the American church is much like the church of Constantine in the first few centuries. She has become acceptable to American society. The evangelical church has crawled into bed with the political system and compromised the gospel message. Even to the point if electing a cultist to office.

We have lost the offense of the cross. We do not preach the offense of the cross. When we do preach the cross it is generally the aspect of dying to self. But we fail to preach that dying to self means giving of our lives to martyrdom. Giving up of our lives for Christ. How many American churches even preach this.

The word martyr means witness in the Greek. In Acts 1:8 we are called to be witnesses or martyrs for Christ. And indeed many in the early church were. Yet it was through the testimony of the martyrs that the church grew.


If God is calling a remnant out of America then it will be through persecution. That remnant will be martyred and testify of Jesus. The American church will not sail to heaven on flowery beds of ease while the persecuted church in the rest of the world sails through stormy seas.

Bearmaster.

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staff

Hi Bearmaster,

You qoute
Yet the American church has been brainwashed with the prosperity gospel and pretrib heresies. Just like the Chineese. Many American Christians will fall away from the faith.
Some very good preachers take up a posttribulation view and some good preachers take up a pre tribulation view.
It is wrong to say that pretribulation view is a heresy because it is devisive.It is nearly always post tribbers who put this accusation in and it is wrong.
I notice that you didnt respond like appolus to points that you cant answer like the Lot and Noah examples given by Jesus which show that believers are taken out before judgement or the basis for your belief that Persecution is coming soon.
Not just you but all on this thread that believe in a coming persecution is coming soon I ask for a simple answer to the simple question -What is the basis for your belief that "Persecution is coming Soon"?
Yours Staff

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sermonindex

We have lost the offense of the cross. We do not preach the offense of the cross. When we do preach the cross it is generally the aspect of dying to self. But we fail to preach that dying to self means giving of our lives to martyrdom. Giving up of our lives for Christ. How many American churches even preach this.
Bearmaster

The Gospel of the West has produced the Western Christian.

Churches today would find themselves empty if anything resembling sacrifice was preached to the Western Believers. Jesus said he would spit the lukewarm Church out of his mouth and few seem to notice that he already has. He is moving through the "Any man" who opened the door.

The current believer in the West will never be taken serious by anyone. Too weak, too odd, too pampered, too worldly and too easily offended.

No need for persecution in the West. One loud BOO! And it would be over.

Marc mc

M
murrcolr

By “a great persecution” could it be that you mean “the great tribulation”?

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sermonindex

Staff,
I have attempted to answer your questions multiple times on multiple threads. What leads us to believe persecution is soon coming is:.........the Spirit of the Lord. The Spirit of Prophecy is the Spirit of Jesus. The Lord has placed it on the hearts/minds of his people by the Holy Spirit. The Lord began to speak of this to me, & many others 10-15+ years ago, but 2-3 years ago a sense of urgency came to the Body far and wide, including to men like David Wilkerson, Art Katz, Paul Washer, Carter Conlon, Andrew Strom, etc., etc., etc., as well as many other "unknown" brethren throughout hidden away in the wilderness of the unknown on earth. How do we know? By the Spirit. You keep asking the same question & I keep giving you the same answer.

Another question kinda on another topic, but related, have you sought the Lord to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit? The Promise for all who believe, ask, seek, & knock under the new covenant? God is faithful if we ask Him in faith. "What father of His son asks for bread will give him a stone?.....the Father knows how to give good gifts & will give the Holy Spirit to him who asks..."

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sermonindex

Also, a new fresh sense of urgency has come to the Body in just the last few weeks/months again, so the Lord is warning His Bride to prepare for what's coming. His delay is an act of His mercy as always before judgment.

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sermonindex

Brother I am not going to hijack this thread by turning it into a theological debate. If you want to have a discussion of the various tribulational views then open up another thread. I will gladly interact with you on that thread.

But to your other question. What is the basis if my believing persecution is coming to Americs. Two things. The New Testament and watching trends in the world. Suffice to say that Jesus and his apostles taught persecution would come as a result of following him. The early church experienced it. And for two thousand years the believing church of Jesus Christ has testified to it. I could quote verse after verse in the New Testament that speak of persecutions that come as a result of following Christ. But you do the digging. Take a concordance. One is to expect persecution when they follow Jesus. The verses of the New Testament speak of this. Jesus said that if they persecuted me they will persecute you. Paul write those that those who live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. This is true of any follower of Jesus. Even believers in the west.

Second observing world trends. In reading profiles that reflect the persecuted church. Observers report an increase in persecution across the restricted nations. Particularly because if the Islamic hijacking if the Arab spring. Persecution of believers is on the increase in Mauritania, Lybia, Syria, Iraq, etc. Nations such as China, Iran, Cuba have launched new crack downs against believers in those nations. Egypt and Turkey are coming against believers. Sudan is committing ethnic cleansing against the Christian Nubians. Islamic extremist are killing Christians in Nigeria.

If we believe persecution is of Satan then the enemy will launch persecution against believers in the west. Particularly in America. With Moslems coming into N. America there are already moves afoot to implement Sharia. Moslens have said their desire is to see the U S turned into a caliphate ruled by sharia. You know how the Moslems feel about Christians. Next to their hatred of Israel Moslems despise Christians.

Another dynamic is s hatred of Christ and what he stands for in America. This hostility to the things of Jesus was started by the secular humanist decades ago. It has given rise to the removing of prayer and nativity scenes in he public sector to the advancing of gay rights. One may teach homosexuality to a child in the public school. This has the approval of society. But dare one teach the person and work of Jesus they are excoriated.

When you read of a couple being fined for having a Bibke study in their home in California. Or a school teacher being fired from his job in Colorado for reading his Bible on his own time. Or a pastor who resigns from his police chaplaincy in N. Carolina because he cannot pray in the name of Jesus. You know persecution has come to America. And it will only get worse.

Respectfully Bearmaster.

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sermonindex

Hi Guys, as you can probably tell from the OP, this was not an apologetic piece. I am not arguing or debating certain positions, I have zero desire to do that. This is why I told Staff that we would agree to disagree. This piece, in my opinion, is for those who have ears to hear. I deliberately did not go into details of all the different positions there are on eschatology. I do not nor have ever believed that other positions are heresy or anything like that. None of us hold to a perfect doctrine. And so my piece stands as to how I am led. Now of course others can and do say that they too are led in a different position, and this is where I am very happy to leave it in the hands of God as we will all give answer to Him for how we lived our lives.

And so I would simply reiterate, its time to get ready, its time to count the cost and its time to pray and draw near to our Lord. One could argue, and I would agree, that this would and should be normal Christianity. Unfortunately we live in times where this is not normal. And if the Lord in His mercy has called on some brothers and sisters to wake the sleeping church up, then those people must do what they have been called to do. There will always be the naysayers who say " you have not been called," or that " you cannot prove these things," but as I said, all of us answer to God for the things that we speak or the things that we write or convey on " His behalf." ...............bro Frank

Self is the opaque veil that hides the face of God from us.It can be removed only in spiritual experience, never by mere instruction. We may as well try to instruct leprosy out of our system. There must be a work of God in destruction before we are free. We must invite the cross to do its deadly work within us. We must bring our self-sins to the cross for judgment. We must prepare ourselves for an ordeal of suffering in some measure like that through which our Savior passed when He suffered under Pontius Pilate.
... A. W. Tozer (1897-1963), The Pursuit of God [1948],
Christian Publications, 1982, p. 43

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sermonindex

Aside from the New Testament that should always be at the top of every list. I recommend Tortured for Christ by Richard Wirmbrandt. And Cost of Discipleship by Dietrich Bonhoffer. Both of these books address the subject of persecution and suffering. Both if these books were written by men who suffered.

Bearmaster.

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pilgrim777

Apollus: And so I would simply reiterate, its time to get ready, its time to count the cost and its time to pray and draw near to our Lord.

Amen, brother - the Spirit is speaking to many brothers and sisters, far and wide.

Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Pilgrim

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staff

Hi Jeffmar,
I will respond separately to your [points.
Your Qoute:
Also, a new fresh sense of urgency has come to the Body in just the last few weeks/months again, so the Lord is warning His Bride to prepare for what's coming. His delay is an act of His mercy as always before judgment.

What specific prophesy's have been made regarding this persecution?and do you believe this persecution is a judgement?
Thanks Staff

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staff

Hi Jeffemar,
This is the first time on any thread that someone has admitted to me that it is the Holy Spirit that is bringing this message."Placed on hearts/minds" isnt a prophesy as far as I can see. I do not consider 10-15yrs or 2-3 yrs as soon.What is soon to you?
Art Katz was a great preacher but he is dead since 2007.
Carter Conlon has preached on this subject recently as far as i know.
What specifically did god say to you about the persecution?

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is not really anything to do with this.
At least you have nailed your colours to the mast and said that God told you which he may have.
Yours Staff

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sermonindex

Let me ask, what would the North American church be persecuted for?

Specifically?

Marc mc

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sermonindex

Just listened to Denny Kenniston on The Upcoming Wave of Persecution. He makes reference to persecution coming to America. Good stuff and compliment to this thread.

Bearmaster.

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staff

Hi Bearmaster,
I think that post tribulation view is wrong but I do not call post trib believers heretics.This as you well know is not about a theological debate on tribulation views but a comment on calling people heretics.
As too your 2 points
Trends:The thread said that Persecution is coming SOON.
Most believers whether they believe in post or pre believe we are nearing the end and that the trend regarding sinning is downward.The manouverings in the middle east are just setting the stage to the end.People have seen these trends for 40 years now but that is no evidence to say "persecution is coming soon"
The New Testament:
The new testament doesn't say any where that persecution is specifically coming in 2012 or soon after.This is your claim and I am asking to back it up that all.Persecution is always everywhere in some form big or small.(like the teacher or the pastor mentioned) but that doesn't mean a mass persecution is around the corner later this year.

Jeffmar said that the Spirit of Prophesy told him and I think that is acceptable but we need to know the specific prophesy's and test them.So far all I have heard is the vague God put it on my "Heart" sort of thing.Do we not have prophets in the house?We talk about how we believe in the gifts which I do but anybody can say "bad times" or "good times" are ahead because if we wait long enough we know one of those buses will come along.
My belief is that the idea of a "coming soon persecution to the western church" is based on the wrong things.

We quite rightly look at the church in the west and say what a mess and perhaps we have thought "when is God going to Act?". We have lost our patience and are teaching what seems logical like "trends" but may not be inspired by the Spirit.It looks like a "wild goose chase" to me.
Just because trends are downward and will continue to be downward unless God Acts doesn't mean "Persecution is coming Soon"
Pre tribulation believers get warned by God as well as post tribulation believers as both have the same Spirit.God will speak to both sets of believers and warn them both but the pre tribbers wont realize it is the tribulation thats the difference but they will know trouble is a head.
If you think that their is a soon coming persecution because of your tribulation view then it is not from the Lord unless very importantly the tribulation is later this year or next.
But as far as I can tell you are saying their is a soon coming persecution but it is not the tribulation,
Yours Staff


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sermonindex

Hi Staff,

Brother I did not call pretribbers heretics. I said the teaching was herectical. Perhaps a better word would have been erroneous. Denny Kenniston mentions that the teaching of a pretrib rapture did great harm to the Chinerse church. But this thread has never been about a trib view but a warning of upcoming persecution. Yet you seem to want to force the issue of trib position. You also challenge the idea of upcoming persecution. No one gave dates when persecution would come. Only that it is coming.

Look there are excellent messages that speak of upcoming persecution. Some Greg posted on a thread I started called Recommrmended Sermon Index Messages of Persecution. You listen to them and decide for yourself. If you still reject the idea of upcoming persecution then that is your choice.

Staff I live in a part of America where we have dangerous weather. We have storm events called tornados. These are nasty funnel clouds that bring destruction and death. When tornado warnings are given they are taken quite seriously. No one knows when a tornado will strike. But when the warnings are given we prepare and take shelter. A person may reject the warnings. But they do so to their on peril. It is the same with the persecution warning.

Respectfully Bearmaster.

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sermonindex

Staff,
I sent you a link (earlier in this thread or another) to a John Piper article explaining the difference between OT Prophets & NT Prohets/Prophecy. I'm assuming based upon your continual beating the same drum, you never read it? It would help answer your question and explain much of it to you.
In Him,
Jeff

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sermonindex

deleted for double posting

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sermonindex

Hi Staff, how many comment replies does it take for you to convey that you do not accept what is being put forward? Why not disagree and move onto something you do agree with? I get it brother, you have a right to express what you believe or do not and many have taken the time to explain why they believe persecution is coming soon. Do you really believe that one has to be a Prophet to know this?

Are you in danger of working against what God is speaking through His people? Have you considered that Staff? There is certainly testing, and then there is nay saying and there is a huge difference. There is nothing about coming persecution that is not Biblical. I would like you to read these Scriptures and ponder and consider what the Spirit would say to you about them. Consider also that they were given more than 400 years before Jesus came. Consider especially verse 2-4


Mal 3:1-5
(1) Behold, I will send My messenger, and He will clear the way before Me. And Jehovah, whom you seek, shall suddenly come to His temple, even the Angel of the Covenant, in whom you delight. Behold, He comes, says Jehovah of Hosts.
(2) But who can endure the day of His coming? And who shall stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire, and like fuller's soap.
(3) And He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver. And He shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may be offerers of a food offering in righteousness to Jehovah.
(4) Then the food offering of Judah and Jerusalem shall be pleasing to Jehovah, as in the days of old and as in former years.
(5) And I will come near you to judgment. And I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those who extort from the hired laborer's wages, and turning away the widow, and the orphan, the alien, and not fearing Me, says Jehovah of Hosts.

These are specific prohecies given by a genuine Prophet Staff. Now you do not have to be a Prophet to understand the Scriptures meaning nor do you have to be a Prophet for the Lord to lay that on your heart and tell you that the Lord is at the door and He comes first with a refining fire and like a lauderers soap and who will stand when it comes. And who does it come against?

Today we live in the most Biblicaly illterate generation in over 300 years. They do not have eyes to see nor ears to hear because they do not first and foremeost, know the Word of God. The Word of God is prophecy, its already been written about the last days brother. For God to lay on the hearts of His people that the Word will soon come to pass has zero to do with being a prophet and everything to do with hearing that small still voice. If you are hearing that small still voice, if you are claiming to hear God speak to you on these particualr matters then you should say so plainly, but you have not as yet. The message that I wrote and the messages Greg Gordon has highlighted by men of God, proven men of God, are all saying the same thing and they are saying it to a sleeping Christendom and they are saying it because they have been called to say it.

Mat 16:3 And in the morning, Foul weather today; for the sky is red and gloomy. Hypocrites! You can discern the face of the sky, but you cannot see the signs of the times!

Should you not be able to discern the signs of the times Staff? Are you saying that you have to be a prophet to discern the signs of the times? Are you saying that God will not give His people discernment in the last days? If God is giving His people discernment and they are speaking it forth then praise the Lord for His mercy, for it is certainly undeserved, it is certainly grace, unmeritied favor............bro Frank

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jimp

hi, i am truly in awe at the mental attitudes that are in the young christians of today. persecutions, tribulations,criticisms... no good reports, the failure of the churches and pastors,demonic doctriness,enemies of the cross...Jesus is the Head of His church and the gates of hell will not prevail against her. do you know that they have a christian church in nigeria that seats a million and is nearly a mile long? did you know about revivals in central and south america and cuba and china. do you know that more people are coming to Christ in the middle east than moslems allah.we should be looking unto Jesus ,the author and finisher of our faith instead of the doom and gloom for He has already defeated satan.everywhere in the old testament mankind ,who faced pending tribulation, were delivered through the tribulation... the red sea, the wilderness , the jordan,the firey furnace , the lions den ... the promise of the valley of the shadow of death . the joy of the Lord is your strength and if you are born of God ... to live is Christ and to die is gain.get involved in the great things that God is doing on the earth today and get out of the negativity that drives people away from the gospel.if you are planted in the ground for preaching the gospel than the earth will produce a tree from your seed that will do greater damage to the enemy.jimp

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sermonindex

Hi Jimp, obviously I can only comment on this thread as I wrote the OP. Not sure who you are reffering to in relation to no good report and mental attitudes and other descriptions. For example jimp, look up the devotioanl section of SI and see a barren wasteland of no comments. I think you are doing a dis-service to men like Wilkerson and Conlon and Ravenhill and Tozer and the list goes on. Not only did they speak about coming persecution and the state of the church ( Wilkerson wept publicly and could barely speak as he spoke of the state of the church) they also highlighted the glory of God and His majesty and His glory and they saw countless people come to Jesus through their ministry. You mention what is going on in China and the middle-east and of course this is going on side by side with persecution and those revivals are mentioned time and again by those who speak of coming persecution. Just because you do not care for the message Jimp, there is no need to attack the messangers lest you find yourself guilty of the very thing you accuse others of is that not correct? Each man serves God according to how he is called. Wilkerson and others had their calling, you had yours and all is under God. Listen to the messages highlighted by Greg Gordon about coming persecution, consider the source of these messages of men clearly sent from God, consider the upcoming conference on this very important subject and see if the Lord will not speak to your heart..............bro Frank

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sermonindex

I think you are doing a dis-service to men like Wilkerson and Conlon and Ravenhill and Tozer and the list goes on. Not only did they speak about coming persecution and the state of the church
I agree.

A brother told me the other day that he had a dream about Carter Conlon not having the spirit to go all the way like David Wilkerson. I was bothered by this brothers dream because he already had a bias towards CC, just because someone is not like David Wilkerson doesn't mean they don't have the anointing of God on their life. We should be very careful how we tread Saints, we need to be slow in speaking or the updated version, slow in typing and quick to listen.

Attacking these great men like this is the same as persecution. We don't need to wait for persecution, it's already here, in the midst of us.

J
jimp

hi, i have spent many an hour in len ravenhills home and he in mine, he ministered every week in my house and i prayed with him often in his.his view was balance with eternal values and although he spoke of the purification of the church by difficulties, he also spoke of walking in the spirit and prospering as this country has for 200 years. he di also say things like prosperity could be our biggest problem but realized that the meals came with the cruise.he was never morbid or negative, yet he never was overboard the other way either. he was always speaking in terms of eternal values.we serve a good ,loving Father who loves us and wants the ultimate best for us. i live and minister in a bible col. setting and hear every day the things i preveously wrote about from folks who think not having a latte today would be persecution.it is the goodness of God that leads to repentance and His mercies endure forever and are new every morning.these wonderful men who have warned us have had this responsibility placed on them by the Holy Spirit and have shared these warnings out of love for the body hoping that we would repent and avoid the consequences of our sins of omission and commision.jimp

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Nice Jimp!

Marc mc

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I have travelled to China hundreds of miles inland to the agricultural countryside, where over 80% of the population live. This is where the bulk of the Persecuted Church live. They have daily jobs, just like you and I. They have families.

The Communist government there has issued laws that prohibit free Christianity. In the early 50's, the Christian Church was brutally attacked under Mao Tse Tung.

This can be only attributed to an Anti-Christ spirit. The hatred for the church is direct and specific. The Government set up a state church, that allowed Christian worship and teaching while promoting social propaganda; THE THREE SELF CHURCH. I visited a couple of these; Religious order; kind of like a Catholic agenda with a statue of Mao.

During this period in the early days, many, many thousands of men and women were hauled off to prisons for re-education. Many, such as Watchman Lee, spent 20 years incarcerated. I have met and interviewed a brother who spent 17 years imprisoned there. Some have been murdered. There have been many forced abortions too.

They were, and are persecuted, because the government in power not only fears their faith, they hate their faith. It is a transcendental hatred, and it is very personal.

Through out the ages these anti-Christ demons have forged alliances and warred against the Holy Church, and have been able to forge tangible political power, as in the 350 year Catholic Inquisition, or Hitler's short rule; there have been many.

It's goal is political power, and then, the masks come off. "We hate You and will destroy you!" This is the goal of the Marxists; Socialists, Communists, leftists. It is an anti-Christ agenda that defies every foundation of the Bible and the Spirit of Christ.

This is the power today in the halls of leadership in our country, and it is growing. I believe that one day America will fall militarily, be invaded and occupied; it will happen suddenly. Then, without infrastructure, order and power grids, without food and water sold or available, our sorrows will begin. Then persecution will become much more visible and intense.

This is exactly what happened in China 60 years ago, and by the way, if you were arrested in China for your faith,and imprisoned, you were sent home to comfort if you denied Christ.

We must never fear, but trust and believe.

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sermonindex

This is the power today in the halls of leadership in our country, and it is growing. I believe that one day America will fall militarily, be invaded and occupied; it will happen suddenly. Then, without infrastructure, order and power grids, without food and water sold or available, our sorrows will begin. Then persecution will become much more visible and intense.

Brothertom

I doubt a country that has a nuke for every man woman and child needs to fear a military fall.

Your views require more than few unknowns to bring about a Church persecution. Especially towards a sleeping church.

Like I have said a few times already the Church in the West is of no consequence to anyone outside it. The society is no longer aware we are here. The persecution I see coming to the Western Church is more of what we already have which is self inflicted persecution.

Marc mc

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staff

Hi Appolus,
People are saying that a persecution is coming soon.
I have asked questions and they for the most part have not been answered.

Like what is soon?
Has your belief in a post tribulation had an affect on your belief that"persecution is coming soon"?
Who told you that it will be soon?

Not alone do I not feel that I am working against God but I feel like I am putting a theologically sound response to the notion that persecution is coming soon and I feel that God has pointed out some things that i have brought forward.
That is my motivation.
Looking from the outside in it appears that people on the thread are in a bubble.
I can totally discern the sign of the times anyone can prophet or no but some people are saying "persecution is coming" and others are saying that "Judgement is coming"
and their is a big difference.
Anybody can quote scripture verses like you have but none of those scriptures say that persecution is coming soon as in 2012,2013 or even 2014 to the Us church as is the claim.
Yours Staff


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staff

hi Jeffmar,
Id rather you just answer my questions yourself,
Thanks Staff

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staff

Hi bearmaster,
In your opinion it is heretical.
Believers understanding about the pre trib rapture may have did harm to chinas church because they didnt understand that God was taking his people out before the Great Tribulation not before tribulation in China.God did not promise to bring out anybody from tribulation but the great tribulation.
I bring the tribulation into it because it has an affect on what you believe not to force the issue on tribulation views but you cannot go around saying this a heresy when the jury is clearly out.
As to dates the post said "soon" and I want to know what that is so that we will know what is being said is from God.
As I said anyone can say persecution is coming because if you wait long enough it will come along.(God isnt vague)
This matter has been brought up as a matter of top level urgency and I want to know why and when specifically,
If the national weather service gives a credible weather warning I would watch out but I would prefer that this post doesn't turn out to be " the boy that cried wolf"
Yours Staff

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sermonindex

Hi Staff,

Brother there have been saints on this thread, including myself, who have tried to answer your questions. We have pointed you to men of God who are speaking of upcoming persecution. The administrator of this web site believes persecution is coming. There is a sense if urgency that is confirmed by scripture that persecution will soon come

But you keep asking the same questions. How do you know? When is it coming? Brother I cannot tell you when it is comin. Only that it is. Do you want me to tell you I got a message from God that persecution is coming. Ok. I heard the Spirit speak into my mind years ago I would suffer and be martyred for Christ. I had a dream that I saw myself in a persecuted church. I had another dream that I saw myself in a death camp. But I am not basing my convictions about persecution on dreams and voices but on the word. Also what men wiser than me are hearing
from the word on this.

Brother we could go back and forth on this but must stand down. Nothing more will be gained. You have heard the truth from brothers far wiser than I. You must decide if this message is true. For I cannot answer any more of hour questions. May God grant you wisdom.

Bear standing down.

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sermonindex

HI Staff, if yout dont like the term soon, then you are going to be dissapointed with anyone who speaks on this subject in this our present age. I have not heard a single person name a time or a date for the beginning of pesecution or the brith pangs or anything that you choose to call it. So, you are dissapointed and you reject all the men who have this message, fair enough brother.If a preacher or anyone delivers what God has laid on his heart, it is up to you personally to accept or reject it, you clearly have rejected it as is your right and you will not be convinced otherwise, thats between you and God and I am perfectly at peace that this is between you and God, go in peace brother.............bro Frank

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sermonindex

HI Jimp, I realize that you knew Ravenhill, you have mentioned it numerous times. So, by your last post it seems that we agree, that is good. As for the Latte drinking people, not sure who you are talking about? Ravenhill? Tozer? Wilkerson? Conlon? These are all men of God I believe and they bring forth a balanced message..........bro Frank

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sermonindex

I have travelled to China hundreds of miles inland to the agricultural countryside, where over 80% of the population live. This is where the bulk of the Persecuted Church live. They have daily jobs, just like you and I. They have families.

The Communist government there has issued laws that prohibit free Christianity. In the early 50's, the Christian Church was brutally attacked under Mao Tse Tung.

This can be only attributed to an Anti-Christ spirit. The hatred for the church is direct and specific. The Government set up a state church, that allowed Christian worship and teaching while promoting social propaganda; THE THREE SELF CHURCH. I visited a couple of these; Religious order; kind of like a Catholic agenda with a statue of Mao.

During this period in the early days, many, many thousands of men and women were hauled off to prisons for re-education. Many, such as Watchman Lee, spent 20 years incarcerated. I have met and interviewed a brother who spent 17 years imprisoned there. Some have been murdered. There have been many forced abortions too.

They were, and are persecuted, because the government in power not only fears their faith, they hate their faith. It is a transcendental hatred, and it is very personal.

Through out the ages these anti-Christ demons have forged alliances and warred against the Holy Church, and have been able to forge tangible political power, as in the 350 year Catholic Inquisition, or Hitler's short rule; there have been many.

It's goal is political power, and then, the masks come off. "We hate You and will destroy you!" This is the goal of the Marxists; Socialists, Communists, leftists. It is an anti-Christ agenda that defies every foundation of the Bible and the Spirit of Christ.

This is the power today in the halls of leadership in our country, and it is growing. I believe that one day America will fall militarily, be invaded and occupied; it will happen suddenly. Then, without infrastructure, order and power grids, without food and water sold or available, our sorrows will begin. Then persecution will become much more visible and intense.

This is exactly what happened in China 60 years ago, and by the way, if you were arrested in China for your faith,and imprisoned, you were sent home to comfort if you denied Christ.

We must never fear, but trust and believe.

Brother, well said and a clear warning to all of us. We must spend this time deepening our scripture knoweldge and walking with Jesus Christ daily in intimacy and prayer.

it will happen suddenly.

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sermonindex

The Spirit of God spoke to me one day walking up the stairs of my 5-bedroom house that something was coming and I was not ready for it. That was 2-3 years ago now. I was backslidden, and when the Holy Spirit spoke it. I saw great devestation in my mind's eye like a mushroom cloud of destruction. The Lord since called us to sell all we have, live in a fifth wheel (I have 5 kids and a wife), make certain preperations, move out of state and change jobs, etc., etc., etc. I am still so weak and full of old self ways God is having to crush me and break me painfully so I am not dependant on my own flesh and natural man. He is gracious and true though. I have had MANY dreams of what is coming, many times of the Lord speaking to me in prayer/meditation, much confirmation in our Body fellowship, and in other great men of God worldwide. I dont know what else some are looking for, except the actual wave to crash on our shore like a Tsunami? Some dont understand NT prophecy and how it differs from OT prophecy, but I referenced a great article on the subject. I have a job and family, so I cant spell everything out. If youre not motivated to read the article as John Piper wrote it, and listen to the messages on this site on persecution, I have to ask: are you really motivated to evaluate this truth?"

Flesh gives birth to flesh, but Spirit gives birth to Spirit"

"Spiritual things can only be spiritually discerned by the Spirit"

"My sheep know me, they hear my voice and follow me....they will not follow another"

"despise not prophecy"

I have nothing else to say. Excellent post from the brother on China. FYI - "The Approaching Wave of Persecution Coming" from Brother Denny Kenaston is an excellent message I can't recommend enough.
God Bless you all,
Jeff

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staff

Hi Jeffmar,
I believe what your saying.I am not disputing this but what your talking about seems not to be persecution but Judgement.
And I am sure you will agree its theirs a difference.

I am sure that Judgement will come to the US but this will probably lead to a resurgence in people seeking God.
Persecution would come to the church if it comes but Judgement would be both Church and Country.

If Benny Hinn type preachers said that "Persecution is coming soon" you would hold him to the highest level and if it didnt happen he would be slated.I think it is only right every body when preaching things to come should be held to a high level of accountability.
The time frame of "soon" was not introduced by me but is part of the heading of the thread but nobody seems to know what it means.
If you say Judgement is coming to the US I would agree with what your saying but if you are saying persecution is coming soon I would say there is no evidence or prophesy regarding soon persecution of the church(recent) in the US and I remained unconvinced at least and at most I would think its a total wild goose chase.
Their is a story of an old prospector who couldn't be told that their was no vein of gold in the mountain but kept on digging always sure it was just around the corner,Seemingly they call it "marrying the vein" which speaks for itself.I am not saying this about you because of what God has shown(i think its judgement not persecution) you but most posters just wont be told because their in a bubble that has been created similar to a property bubble

I hope you consider that it may be Judgement God is talking about and not persecution,

Yours Staff

G
gators52

Reading this thread the last couple days if I were to venture out and say that what jeffmar is saying is happening to a lot of people. Most of what the Lord shows them freaks them out to a certain degree.

A couple months ago I took a Monday off from work to spend time with the Lord. During this time I was laying on my bed waiting on the Lord and a peaceful presence of God came over me and surrounded me. As I laid there, the Lord said to me, "Brian I am going to speak to you of things to come". I then began to have a vision of America. And I saw dollar signs floating all over the land and slowly one by one they began to fall and then suddenly they all fell at once. I then saw a huge crack in the middle of the country and the Lord said to me, "turn to 1st peter 4:7". This is one of many many times the Lord has spoken to me in such a manor... Is it persecution? I'm not sure about that but bad and terrible times are ahead. Thanks for the sharing jeffmar.

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sermonindex

It's both judgement and persecution. Of that I am certain

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sermonindex

It's both judgement and persecution. Of that I am certain...jeffmar

sharing revelation. Judge accordingingly.

http://brideinthewilderness.blogspot.com/2012/03/justice-and-glory-americas-time-in.html#comment-form

B
Blayne

Hi! Jeffmar

I have been following this Thread closely for a few days now.
Yes, I would wholeheartedly agree that there is a significant difference between judgement and persecution.

Where are we presently?
By that I mean, where is our citizenship? (Phil 3:20)
I've been thinking a lot lately about the fact that our citizenship is in heaven, (kingdom of God ). This would mean that our knowledge of coming events should first be perceived from that situation; in keeping with "keep your mind on things above", and also, "They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world".

The faithful of the Old Covenant lived under the shadow of what we experience today ... they did not know the spiritual realities which Jesus pronounced with the New Covenant and which belong to us in this day.

For instance, what would Christians whose minds are focused on things of the earth, (as the Old Testament faithful), say about, "The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD"?

The faithful of the New Covenant know about spiritual realities through faith, (because faith is the "evidence of THINGS UNSEEN").
By His Spirit we obtained citizenship in the heavenly places and this lifted us up above the darkness. We have been transferred out of the darkness and into the Kingdom of the Son of God's love and move and have our being there through faith.

The prophet Joel was not speaking here of an extra-ordinary natural phenomenon. Rather, he is describing in earthly pictures what he was seeing in the unseen heavenly places; where we too must have our minds focused upon and where also our citizenship must be.

The sun is the image of God who is called "the sun of righteousness", (Malachi 4:2). Job observed a cloud of locusts, a picture of demonic armies, which blocked the sun. This is happening in this very day we live in!

The evil powers put themselves between God and man. As a result, the light of God is darkened for those who dwell upon the earth because sin causes separation between God and man. The light of God no longer reaches the false church that dwells upon the earth. It is as if the sun is screened off by that camel's hair cloth which people use in the Orient.

As the sun is the image of God as light, the moon reflects the glory of the sun. The moon is a light in the night, and 'the light shines in the darkness'. So the moon is the image of Jesus Christ. He was the True Light, coming to enlighten the entire world, (every man), (John 1:4-9).

The fact that the moon adopts the color of blood is characteristic of the great apostasy. Blood is the image of natural life. In the unfaithful church, the name, word and work of Jesus Christ are not related to the Kingdom of Heaven but localized in natural life. The supernatural is removed from the Gospel of Jesus Christ or moved to the past.

A dense smoke has formed a cloud which almost completely blocks off the Gospel of the Kingdom. Christians no longer speak about being "raised up to the heavenly places in Christ Jesus". Instead, they look into the temporary and earthly things. Consequently, the way of God, the right view of God and His plan to form a spiritually mature people are completely lost.

"And the moon into blood." The moon reflects the light of the sun. Jesus "reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature", (Heb 1:3). He came as a light in the dark night. The moon is certainly there but it gives no light and therefore no life. The name of Jesus is still mentioned but His true purpose, which gives a walk in the light and gives imperishable life, is rejected. God's people are insisting to negate the teachings of Jesus and desire to walk in His footsteps by natural means and not according to the eternal plan of God. Christians do not do the works which Jesus did and the gospel of the Kingdom is not preached.

All these things take place "before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes", (Joel 2:31).

Notice that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and the spiritual darkness come before the Day of the Lord.
Through the latter rain the Lord is glorified in His saints and marveled at in all who have believed.
At this same time, the great apostasy and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, (2Thess 1:10 & 2:3) .

After this follows the great tribulation or temptation which comes over all the world. This great and terrible day of the Lord is the time period when the powers flood the whole earth, just like the great flood in the days of Noah.
Ordinary human life is not possible anymore. Everything becomes dissolved and lawless; for example: marriage, labor, social life, politics and religious life. There will come a shroud of fear over many.

"And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered", (Joel 2:32). To be saved means more than only to be rescued.
Not only have we been reconciled to God (rescued) by the death of Jesus, we are also being saved to the uttermost by His life, (Rom 5:10).

Salvation is a growing maturing process through which the purpose of God with us is reached. Israel was rescued from Egypt, but not all were saved. Most of them perished in the wilderness. Joel also spoke about the possibility of becoming true spiritual people who will reach completeness, "for the promise is unto you", (Acts 2:39).

"For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, as the Lord has said, even among the survivors whom the Lord calls", (Joel 2:32).

Only those who really have been transferred to the Kingdom of God's beloved Son; those who have been set free from the powers of darkness which rule this world by unrighteousness and falsehood, will continue walking in the light. This is the fulfillment of Isaiah 60:2: "For behold, darkness shall cover the earth, and thick darkness the peoples; but the Lord (the sun) will arise upon you, and his glory will be seen upon you".

Unfaithful Christianity seeks a way on earth and therefore becomes a prey of the fire. Those who escape, whom the Lord called by the preaching of the gospel of the Kingdom, ascend in order to walk the road on high. God called them to believe in His Son and to follow Him in His ways. They have life everlasting and belong to the Kingdom of God the Father and His Son.

According to Matthew 13:30 the weeds are gathered first into bundles, bundles of tares. Then the grain is gathered in order to be stored in the heavenly barn, the faithful church.
Then the true believers, although still living on earth, have completely taken up their position in the heavenly realm.
Then the growing together of the two comes to an end because what belongs to God and what belongs to the devil is clearly separated. This is the judgement.

J
jimp

hi,occupy til I come.what then do you do to prepare for this soon coming event.you make yourself ready. you cannot make anyone else ready.i believe it is foolish to talk about a soon coming event when the truth is that one must be ready today.the foolish virgins were not ready because they were not ready today. today is the day of salvation.there is no such thing as tomorrow for when it comes it is today.if you are ready today you do not have to worry about what is to come.the truth is we face eternal tribulation and seperation and we must fall at the foot of the cross of Christ and reckon ourselves dead and give Him full reign of our lives so that we can walk in the Spirit.this is the primary thing that needs to be dealt with.who cares what happens when your life is hid with Christ in God.jimp

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