Why not Suicide?

Has anyone any thoughts or knowledge on what the Jewish view of suicide has been down through the ages and why suicide was never called a sin or forbidden in the OT? Doesnt it seem strange that it was never once mentioned in any way? In light of the many OT suicides it seems to me that Jewish people do not or did NOT think it a damnable sin. There was the suicide of Ahithophel, of Saul's armorbearer, the kamikazi suicide of Samson, and there was the mass suicide of Jews at the fortress of Masada during the siege of the Romans (A.D 70?).I have been pondering a lot lately as to why God would be silent on such a thing as suicide, particularly in the Old Testament.

Chuck Swindoll once said that Satan is involved in every suicide. This would certainly seem to be the case in the life of Saul and Judas, both servants of satan, as well as many of the suicides of today. And pride often seems to be prevalent in the lives of those people. Does anyone have any input on the subject of suicide in Jewish thought and teaching?Is the Jewish view of suicide identical to the Catholic view? Oddly enough, despite the Catholic view of suicide almost all the suicides i know of personally (and i know of quite a few) were committed by members of Catholic families or those raised Catholic (not necessarily practicing or devout themselves). Anyone have any similar observations?

The OT law says "Thou shalt not kill."

Violation of the OT laws required a sacrifice or else they were subject to the death penalty.

Now, how is a suicide victim going to offer a sacrifice for self-murder? He/she is dead - can't do it.

Self-murder is a sin one cannot repent from nor turn away from it. It is final.

Murder is sin regardless who does it to who.

I know one suicide victim and he was not a Catholic.

I do not know what Catholics or Jews think of suicide but I do know what the Scriptures say about murder.

Genesis 9:5 says "Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning, from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man's brother I will require the life of man."

Verse 6 says "Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man."

Suicide is murder, as mentioned in the Ten Commandments, given by God, you shall not murder.

What is the difference between murdering someone else or murdering yourself?

As has been said, you can't repent of suicide.

And, if you need to repent...

QUOTE: "The OT law says "Thou shalt not kill."==GINNYROSE

Yes, that is quoted every time such a subject comes up. But it is insufficient. David killed on a regular basis, and even the prophet Samuel killed (once). So to use that commandment and say that ALL killing is forbidden is wrong.

QUOTE: "Genesis 9:5 says "Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning, from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man's brother I will require the life of man."

Verse 6 says "Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man."==ENID

Again, same as above argument. All killing cannot be wrong, since David killed regularly, Samson killed regularly, Samuel killed (once), and so forth.

I do not know what Catholics or Jews think of suicide but I do know what the Scriptures say about murder.

And...

As has been said, you can't repent of suicide.

And, if you need to repent...

Trekker wrote:
And pride often seems to be prevalent in the lives of those people. Does anyone have any input on the subject of suicide in Jewish thought and teaching?

So if a person was driven to it by demon or evil spirit(s) then it’s not exactly murder, is it?

God bless and just my two cents!!
Lisa

If what the the word of God says isn't good enough for you, then, it's not good enough for you.

by enid
If what the the word of God says isn't good enough for you, then, it's not good enough for you.

I pray the grace of God be with you (and me) during this conversation.

The fact remains that the word of God is silent on suicide. Verses about murder were provided not about suicide. I beg you to see that we cannot impose our own beliefs about something to a verse (or verses) and thereby CONDEMNING HUNDREDS TO HELL when it’s not plainly written in the Scriptures. *(edited for clarity)

I do hope you know that the word of God is always good enough for me when it is applied correctly.

God bless you,
Lisa

End.

QUOTE:
" All killing cannot be wrong, since David killed regularly, Samson killed regularly, Samuel killed (once), and so forth."

The "kill" as it appears in the ten commandments means murder. This differs radically from killing as in warfare. In war each soldier is equipped to defend himself, or should be. The rules are understood by both sides. If a person gets killed under these circumstances it is killing but not murder as stated in the ten commandments.

Consider this incident:
2 Kings 2:5: “Now you also know what Joab the son of Zeruiah did to me, what he did to the two commanders of the armies of Israel, to Abner the son of Ner, and to Amasa the son of Jether, whom he killed; he also shed the blood of war in peace. And he put the blood of war on his belt about his waist, and on his sandals on his feet."

This is David's advice to his son Solomon just before he died. You may want to read about these incidents so you can better understand why David was so adamant about Solomon getting rid of Joab who was David's nephew, Solomon's first cousin.

In the NT the command is thou shalt not murder (Matthew 19:18; Romans 1:29). Jesus took killing to a level not understood by the Jews under the law.

God did not like killing either but he allow it to rid the earth of rebellious people. To do so he used David. However, when the time came to build the temple God told David he could not do it because "he was a bloody man". A person could take this incident and see some wonderful types and shadows here of the NT covenant.

*****************************************************

I believe it to be very dangerous to suggest that suicide is forgiven (God forgave all my sins past, present and future) and can be entered into without any serious repercussions. There may be people reading this thread right now who may be contemplating suicide and because of some of the sentiments expressed on here will then believe it is alright to do so and will go do it. Since this is the case I think the mods should delete this entire thread!

This thread puts me in a panic!

I HAVE IN THE PAST BEEN SUICIDAL AND I PROMISE YOU IT COMES FROM THE DEVIL! MAKE NO MISTAKE! IF YOU GIVE IN TO IT YOU WILL BE SEPARATED FROM GOD FOREVER!

So, am I shouting? You bet I am! Don't do it if you are ever tempted to do so!

ginnyrose

To dismiss the 6th commandment as not pertaining to self-inflicted death/suicide is to wrest the passage. Rather than reinvent the wheel, I wish to share an excerpt from Dr. David R. Brown:

"Noted Bible scholar Charles Ryrie has an excellent chapter on suicide in his book "You Mean The Bible Teaches That...He says "The sanctity of human life is paramount in the sixth commandment, 'Thou shalt not kill' (Ex. 20:13). Here murder is condemned, and elsewhere in the law every act that endangers human life is condemned, whether the act arises from carelessness (Deut. 22:8), wantonness (Lev. 19:14), hatred, anger, or revenge (Lev. 19:17-18). Human life is sacred, for man was made in the image of God (Gen. 9:6, where also this same sanctity is made the basis for capital punishment). But the commandment has no direct object. It does not say, 'Thou shalt not kill someone' or 'Thou shalt not kill thy fellow man.' It is simply, 'Thou shall not kill." He goes on to quote from Carl Keil and Franz Delitzsch "Thus it is to be concluded that 'the prohibition includes not only the killing of a fellow-man, but the destruction of one's own life, or suicide.'" Simply stated, "Suicide negates God's estimate of life and violates the sixth commandment (Rom. 13:9)."

"The Bible does not mention one single instance of a good man committing suicide" D. L. Moody once said. I checked it out and he is right. Every biblical account of suicide reveals an individual whose lifestyle was not honoring to the Lord. All were living outside of the sphere of accepted behavioral standards of the Lord God.

1. I Samuel 31:3-5 -- King Saul and his armor bearer kill themselves by falling on their swords. Saul was forsaken by the Lord when he turned to witchcraft and forsook following God.

2. II Samuel 17:1-14 & 23 (key 23) -- Ahithophel devises a plan to kill King David. When his plan is rejected he hangs himself.

3. I Kings 16:18-20 -- Zimri, military commander of half the chariots in the army of Israel, plots to overthrow the king of Israel and declare himself king. He kills the king and all the male heirs in the family. When the people found out about what had taken place, they appoint Omri, military commander of the army as king. The army marches on Tirzah and defeats the soldiers loyal to Zimri. When he sees the city is taken he retreated into the royal palace and sets it on fire around him and dies in the flames.

4. Matthew 27:3-5; Acts 1:18 -- Judas, betrayer of the Lord goes out and hangs himself by thrusting himself on a pointed beam, causing his insides to gush out. (end of quote)

As for Samson I do not view his death as suicide. He died by the hand of God. I have had this disagreement with believers in the past, but let us consider that it was not the strength of Samson that brought down the house, it was the power of God. If God does not answer his prayer then he dies in prison. It is a tragic ending to a man who was called to be a deliverer in Israel. When the Philistines plucked out his eyes they plucked out Samson's weakness. Hebrews 11 tells us that Samson died in faith. Therefore Samson cannot be viewed as an excuse to take ones own life.

Samson said, "Let me die with the Philistines!" Then he pushed with all his might, and down came the temple on the rulers and all the people in it. Thus he killed many more when he died than while he lived. (Judges 16:30)

The time would fail to give examples of Christ and Christians that knowingly went to their deaths when they could have chosen life, but this cannot be seen as 'suicide'. Paul was warned repeatedly that trouble (and ultimately death) awaited him. None of those things moved him. Old Testament examples as well documented in Hebrews 11. These people all died in faith. So we have to make a sharp distinction between ones desire to end their own life for their own reasons and what took place in scripture among the 'Samsons', etc. A person that commits suicide is moving in ultimate presumption. No one knows what becomes of them. To knowingly and deliberately risk ones soul with such a foolish act is to buy the lie of Satan and risk eternal damnation.

1Co 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Here on SI, people make manifest and very obvious whether or not they are approved by the heresies they either denounce or defend! Within all of the different frameworks of theology we either lean toward holiness or hell. We either lean toward a theology and life of continual victory over sin which Jesus came and died to give us or we lean toward a theological stance that makes one feel comfortable that somehow we can continue in sin and grace will abound … to which Paul answers “God forbid.” (Rom. 6:1-2).

Regardless of thousands of posts on SI and of winning wit matches with hundreds and of having the last word hundreds of times, none of our arguments can save us when we stand before the judgment seat of Christ. MANY who were once servants of God will hear loudly and clearly: “And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Mat 25:30)

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

On that day we will be one or the other:
washed in the blood and made victorious over sin by Christ, or
ungodly and sinner.
In case you are being blinded by the heresy that is being vomited forth on the forum, please believe the simple truth of the gospel: 1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

A person who murders himself makes it obvious that he does not have eternal life abiding in him.

jeffmar asks:
You do admit that suicide is murder right?

I can’t explain every single suicide but I do believe for the majority of suicides a demon(s) drove them to it; whether it was the demon of oppression, lies, depression and suicide, I don’t know; and I hope I have not come across as all knowing for the reasons someone takes their own life. I do know that I was almost “driven” to it once about 12 yrs ago but for the grace of God speaking into my life; this argument would be about me and my soul.

AND I also would like to state for the record that I am NOT saying that all those who commit suicide are going to heaven; but also for the record I don’t know that all those who commit suicide are going straight to hell either; only God is their Judge, not me or anyone else.

Are there any here willing to admit that the Scriptures are not pristinely clear on this matter - suicide? And because the word is not clear, I will not judge another person’s soul but believe and pray for mercy. For that I will not apologize for.

God bless,
Lisa

Just for clarification since we cannot read the tone of these posts... I am not upset with you for condemning me. There is not any tone of yelling at you or anyone else because I believe in everyone’s right to their own opinion.

JiG wrote:
The Scriptures are very clear about even self-mutalation, nonetheless "murdering anyone - including self".

Because my friend, it is the truth that sets people free, not hiding the truth. So let’s be honest about what the scriptures actually do say about it and what the scriptures don’t say about it. Admitting the truth is not going to cause ‘more’ people to take their own lives. If that is what you and others believe then you all are manipulating people with fear of hell instead of trusting the Lord with their souls.

Again, nowhere have raised my voice or meant any harm toward you or anyone else.
God bless,
Lisa

PS: Where is Samson in heaven or hell? Because he purposefully committed what you call self-murder by making the temple collapse with himself and his enemies in it and... God gave him back his strength to this.

QUOTE: "There is NOT ONE example of a New covenant "murder" or taking ones life into ones own hands by violence. Not one."==JEFFMAR

JUDAS.

QUOTE: "I believe it to be very dangerous to suggest that suicide is forgiven (God forgave all my sins past, present and future) and can be entered into without any serious repercussions. There may be people reading this thread right now who may be contemplating suicide and because of some of the sentiments expressed on here will then believe it is alright to do so and will go do it. Since this is the case I think the mods should delete this entire thread!"==GINNYROSE

Well that's exactly what the Catholics think! That is why they don't allow a member of the church who has committed suicide to be buried in their cemetary or whatever. And when a Catholic commits suicide it is hushed up right quick!Some individual churches find ways sometimes to manipulate around that, particularly if the extended family is a high-ranking member of the church or a high-dollar contributor, but still it's the general rule. As for deleting the thread just because someone who reads it may be contemplating suicide, well that is just cowardly. As if they are suddenly going to stop thinking about it if they don't read this thread. Actually, if i were suicidal and reading this there is plenty written here that would have made me think twice already. The kneejerk reaction you have to the very mention of the topic borders on hysteria. The SERIOUSLY suicidal person thinks things out very carefully and thoughtfully before launching into it (as opposed to one who is just looking for attention or impulsive) and the posts on this thread would probably cause the person to consider things he has not been considering.

Krispy,

I was so caught up in the thread I missed your post on the first page. Thank you and I agree with your summation of the car crash, there is much wisdom in that along with this...

Your quote: “So how can we say someone who may be dealing with emotional or mental problems that to them seem beyond their control... and in a moment of distress they take their own life... and because they cant repent of that their salvation is null and void?”

I think other people passed over it as well.

God bless you and your family Krispy! Have a great summer!
Sister Lisa

QUOTE: " IF YOU GIVE IN TO IT YOU WILL BE SEPARATED FROM GOD FOREVER!"==GINNYROSE

That is false doctrine. And again, it underlines my point:
If suicide is something that sends people straight to Hell (as the Catholics believe) then don't ya think God would have made it a point to warn against it in the Old Testament already? And if it is the Unpardonable Sin, as you clearly state without using those exact words, then salvation must be by WORKS and not by grace and not by faith in Christ's finished work on the cross. And if so, then there are probably all sorts of OTHER works that can get a person damned regardless of whether he is a Believer or not too then. If you are so worried that talking about suicide will cause someone to do it, wouldn't it be better to tell them about the LOVE and grace of God towards those who are thinking about suicide? DOES God have compassion towards someone who commits suicide? DOES God feel love, mercy, and compassion towards those who are thinking about it or planning it?? DOES HE? Cuz that is another thing i have been wondering too.........IF God CARES about them (or me when i have been that way). IF He cares, why didn't He stop them? comes to mind. And someone out there may be thinking, "If God cares about me He will stop me and if not then He don't care ." Keeping things hush hush never stopped anyone from doing the deed. They hushed things up completely when my Catholic classmate committed suicide, but that never stopped me or any of my other classmates from trying/completing it.
Hysteria is NOT a solution.

Suicide is playing Russian Roullette with the soul.

Amen.

Why cannot people see this? Instead of finding reasons as to why it may not damn a soul, lets preach against it altogether and let people know that we do not know if suicide damns you or not.

If scripture is not clear that suicide damns you, people are better off thinking that it does damn them, then thinking that it doesn't.

Mr. Trekker, I don't quite understand your reasoning. Just because Catholics believe something that doesn't make it false. Catholics are also against abortion. That doesn't make it OK to kill a baby!

You are accusing Ginnyrose of false doctrine and spitting out bucket loads of it yourself!

WORKS are the fruit or evidence of what one's faith is! Stg 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Stg 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jesus made it quite clear:

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

If a person says that he has faith in Christ and has believed, but his WORKS prove otherwise, his "profession of faith" is meaningless!

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

QUOTE: " IF YOU GIVE IN TO IT YOU WILL BE SEPARATED FROM GOD FOREVER!"==GINNYROSE

AMEN TO THE TRUTH!

The problem with the "fruit" or "work" of suicide is that it closes the door of oportunity for ever TRULY repenting and being able to "Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:" Mat 3:8

Your "faith" is just a silly figment of your imagination if it isn't evidenced by fruit!

Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

A goosy feeling on the inside accompanied by intelectual assent is not faith in Christ. If we BELIEVE what He teaches, we act by obedience in Him! Murdering one's self is not obedience to Him. He never commands anyone to murder himself.

The thief comes to kill, steal and destroy. He came to give life and life in abundance. Anyone with that LIFE inside is NOT going to take his life!

A person tempted with suicide would be MUCH SAFER to just pluck his eye out, or take a saw and cut his hand off, or his foot! He would be obeying a command of Jesus.

He doesn't say "If you had offends you BEFORE you have made a "profession of faith".

ANYONE who gives in to temptation is headed to the place He described: "into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. "

DO WE BELEIVE HIS WORDS OR NOT??? If we believe, we reject temptation. If we give in to temptation, then we either believe that His words do not apply to us, or that they are are simply worthless and don't apply to anybody:

Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

I would agree with the general consciences that suicide is self murder. I tried to copy the above quote,(I couldn't make it copy) by Chuck Swindoll that Satan is involved in every suicide.

I am a Information and Crises Intervention Hot Line Telephone worker. We also partner with the National Suicide Hotline, that # being 1-800-TALK. I have been doing this for 30 yrs. So much for credentials.

A person contemplating suicide is in extreme pain. He feels alone. He feels trapped. He sees no light at the end of the tunnel. My job is to help him see that light. Some of the questions I ask; Have you attempted suicide before? If not, has someone close to you committed suicide? If yes we discuss those feelings. I ask if he has the means available to commit suicide. If they do we talk about the possibility of failing in the attempt and give the statistics of failed suicide attempts.I will ask about family members and how this will effect them.I will ask about how they think God would look at this.

My most resent call was from a man who said he he didn't believe in God so that meant I couldn't bring that in the mix. In our conversation he said that suicide is a selfish act. That admission really surprised me but opened other avenues. I suggested volunteering as helping others was one of the best thing we can do for our own mental health. That interested him. At the conclusion of our call he promised not to hurt himself and he said he was feeling much better.

I felt good about the call and pray that God will bring someone into his life that can lead him to the Giver of Life.

I hope this will have helped someone.

Trekker,

Your responses to this issue leaves me with the feeling that YOU MUST BE CONTEMPLATING suicide and you want to be assured that you will be received by the LORD Jesus upon doing so. This is the sense I get from reading your posts.

OR, you had a loved on commit suicide and you so desperately want to think he/she is with the LORD. One or the other.

Trekker, once a person is dead, graveyard dead, his destiny is sealed, no one can change that. We do well to leave it alone: this belongs to God. All our wishing in the world will never change that. Ever. Why try to argue the eternal destiny of a dead person? If a person commits suicide it will not be the act itself that will send a person to hell but his lack of faith will and it is this lack that doomed him/her.

Do you not know that those who commit suicide are those who have no faith, no trust, no hope in anyone, least of all God? If you have ever been tempted to it you will know exactly what I am talking about. It is a person who has given up and this is the antitheses of faith. Scriptures teach us that "without faith it is impossible to please him."

Yes, Trekker, the defense of those who look at suicide with an ambivalent attitude could well be the nudge that will give someone to proceed with it. That is why I consider this thread so dangerous!!!! And I am calling you to repent NOW!

ginnyrose

QUOTE: "You cannot ever 'guarantee' that GOD forgives "murder" - whether the person dies by their own hands or are killed while killing someone else.You cannot guarantee that GOD will let a murderer into Heaven because HE has said in the New Testament as well - no murderer will enter the Kingdom of Heaven - so you and Lisa would do wise to do and say everything within your power to talk against self-murder or murdering others, as you can."==JESUSISGOD

This too is false doctrine. God forgave King David his sin of murder, and SAID so. Albeit, David confessed and was repentant. As for suicide, I turn you back to my earlier post addressing where ginnyrose said that no suicide can ever be forgiven, that it is the Unpardonable sin, and where i said that is the Catholic, works-based doctrine. I wish someone would say something new here instead of always making me repeat myself.

QUOTE: "If a person says that he has faith in Christ and has believed, but his WORKS prove otherwise, his "profession of faith" is meaningless!"==LORDDOITAGAIN

So i guess you have never committed a single sin ever again since you became a Believer and are perfect. WOW. I sure would like to meet you. You must be GOD if you can be that perfect. Otherwise, if you have committed even one bad "work" or even one sin then i guess your "works prove otherwise and your "profession of faith" is "meaningless".

QUOTE: "Trekker,Your responses to this issue leaves me with the feeling that YOU MUST BE CONTEMPLATING suicide and you want to be assured that you will be received by the LORD Jesus upon doing so. This is the sense I get from reading your posts."==GINNYROSE

No, i want to know, as my FIRST post STATED, WHY God did not make any commandment in the OLD TESTAMENT against suicide and why OT Jewish people did not seem to have any qualms against committing it. Hmm. now i just had a thought...Joab didn't seem to have any qualms against murdering people despite the commandment against murder. Ok, so i just answered for myself the SECOND half of that question...but not the first.

Trekker, do you not see that GOD did give the commandment and it is "Thou shalt not kill."

Yes, Scripture does record suicides but it records a lot of other sins engaged in by people called out by God to be his people but that in no way justifies it.

Consider David's fall into lust and rape. Would anyone here justify it because a man after God's own heart did it? (What did David do when he was confronted? He acknowledged it and repented - that is what earned David's approval from God - he agreed with God and did not defend/justify himself.)

Scripture records the deeds of people, both good and bad demonstrating how needful a person is, how all need redemption and there is none righteous, no not one. Scripture does not always record God's reaction to the sins of people. In doing so we see how longsuffering God is with people in that judgement was not always immediate but he gave them time to repent. These stories teach us a lot about the nature of God. David writes in Psalms how he loves God's testimonies - ever think what he means by that? I consider God's testimonies to include the stories as recorded in scripture as well as the prophets who preached in reaction - under the inspiration of God's directive - to people's behaviors.

QUOTE:
".Joab didn't seem to have any qualms against murdering people despite the commandment against murder."

Trekker, in an earlier post I addressed this question - you must not have read it...go back and read it. In any case I will briefly address it here.

Joab did not get off scotfree. Solomon had him killed. Read 1Kings 2 (giving special attention to verse 5) because of his murdering. Remember Joab was David's nephew, Solomon's cousin.

I've read stories of those contemplating suicide and was rescued by God before they did it. Also, Paul Washer mentioned that you cannot say for sure that when a person commits suicide, he will not go to heaven. I've also read about a sister who people would think was very into the Lord but yet she committed sucidie.

I do not know whether a person who commits suicide will get into Heaven. I do know this though. I've contemplated suicide several times before and once nearly snap and became crazy. I will say that one time when I was thinking of doing this in the future, I started crying heavily and was feeling very pained. This was not my pain and 'my tears'. It was God's. So to answer someone's question as to whether God feels compassion for those that commit suicide or contemplate suicide, I can say yes, God does feel the pain.

Also, I don't think this thread should be shut down. I find this thread very useful and no, this thread doesn't drive me to commit or contemplate suicide. Instead it reminds and reinforce in me that I have to trust in God ever more as the going gets tougher. That when I'm face with the thought of suicide (which I know God doesn't want me to do) and my inability to withstand the pain, the only way out is to be able to trust Him more and more. To go to Him and lean on Him.

And people commit suicide for a variety of reasons. It need not necessarily be because of loneliness or meaningful relationship (unless one is saying relationship with God). Some people commit or contemplate suicide because of the difficulties of life, being unable to provide bread and butter, physical pain,emotional abuse and so on.

I think each of you have some parts right and please don't think that you are the only one or those in your camp only have all the right answers.

Edit : I think its another brother in Christ and not Paul Washer that said he cannot say for sure that when a person commits suicide, he will not go to heaven

QUOTE: "Yeah, Trekker, you just made my point. Judas. And where do you think Judas went, since Jesus said of him, "one of you is a devil"?"==JEFFMAR

???And what point was that??? You stated there was NOT ONE SINGLE case of suicide in the NT. And i reminded you of Judas. We all know where Judas went and why. What is your point?? From your statement above you seem to be saying that every one who commits suicide must be possessed by the devil. Judas didnt go to Hell because he committed suicide but because he betrayed the Lord, among other things; he was never a Believer. So shame on you. And this thread was never meant to be a discussion on where suicides go in the first place; the question is why God didn't issue any command against it in the OT. I could also make my next thread about why God allowed polygamy in the OT...will i be crucified for asking that too??

JiG wrote:
GOD gave Samson his strength to kill the enemies of Israel. It wasn't GOD's will for Samson to fall for Delilah's seductive scheme and yet he did. He was never meant to be a weakened prisoner and be shamed before Israel's enemies and his sin had made our GOD seem smaller in the Philistines' eyes and in chpt 16 "making sport" of Samson was to mock The GOD of Samson and Israel. GOD gave him the strength to gain back what was lost, to do what he was forordained to do - but because of his sin - he paid with his life as well. Samson had plenty of time to repent of his sin with Deliah, but he still paid with his life along with GOD's enemies.

And you also stated ....

JiG wrote:
Whenever those that claim to know the New Testament but want to excuse some specific 'sin' or sin-period - I've noticed that they'll always pull out the Old Testament --- but yet they will be the same people to say that we're not under the Old Testament anymore. This has held true more times than I can number.

I understand that most people believe that suicide is murder, but where did you get that from? I don’t believe that you got it from the Holy Scriptures b/c if it had came from Scripture, you could produce it in black and white.

We are five pages into this discussion and yet no one who believes that the Bible is the authoritative word of God can provide “one” verse that clearly supports what they believe. But yet I’m the one who’s going to have blood on my hands. I find that ironic! Just saying....

God bless us all as we search the Scriptures,
Lisa

*submitted in love, not anger or sarcasm.

Hi Trekker,

Joab didn't seem to have any qualms against murdering people despite the commandment against murder

I think that there is a big misconception about just what "murder" is. When God issued the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill" (Exodus 20), the people of God were quickly exhorted to not allow a sorceress to live (Exodus 22:18).

Was this "murder?"

According to most definitions of "murder," the concept is demonstrated through unlawful killing with premeditation. This definition would prevent most soldiers, judges, police officers, jurors or individuals who were defending others from being guilty of "murder."

When Paul stood before Festus, he told the king, "For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die" (Acts 25:10-11).

When you look at suicide, I think that it is obvious from Scripture that a person is destroying their body -- and that body belongs to God.

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are" (I Corinthians 3:16-17).

Therefore, suicide is the "murder" of one's own self -- and the destruction of the Lord's temple. That would make the person who does it no different from Nero -- who destroyed the Temple in 70 A.D.

[by Trekker on 2012/7/4 1:28:00

QUOTE: "If a person says that he has faith in Christ and has believed, but his WORKS prove otherwise, his "profession of faith" is meaningless!"==LORDDOITAGAIN

So i guess you have never committed a single sin ever again since you became a Believer and are perfect. WOW. I sure would like to meet you. You must be GOD if you can be that perfect. Otherwise, if you have committed even one bad "work" or even one sin then i guess your "works prove otherwise and your "profession of faith" is "meaningless".]

Mr Trekker, you can "shoot at the messenger" all you want to, but read again, the words of JESUS that I was quoting from:

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Your life is either bearing the fruit of holiness or the fruit of wickedness. Have I sinned since I started believing on Jesus? Yes. But I did like Peter. I went out and wept bitterly. I REPENTED which means that I turned away from it to never walk in it again. If I had CONTINUED in that sin, I would no longer be able to call myself a believer because a believer does not continue in sin. IF he sins, he repents and doesn't continue in it.

I've talked to many vipers like yourself in my lifetime Trekker. You're not the first and you won't be the last. If you do not TRULY repent of your sins and turn from all sin and begin to renounce sin, you will fall into the flames of hell one day. You will hear Jesus say: "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
You take sin so lightly!!! ... like it is NO BIG DEAL! You point at human errors to try to justify sin as if God will let you into heaven like that.

I was speaking to a lady with your same viper mentality who told me: "I do my fornicating but I ask the Lord to forgive me".

Jude has already warned me of such men as yourself:

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Read what lasciviousness is:

G766
ἀσέλγεια
aselgeia
Thayer Definition:
1) unbridled lust, excess, licentiousness, lasciviousness, wantonness, outrageousness, shamelessness, insolence
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a compound of G1 (as a negative particle) and a presumed selges (of uncertain derivation, but apparently meaning continent)
Citing in TDNT: 1:490, 83

When you make the grace of God a license to sin, you expose to the world what you really are ... a wolf in sheep's clothing. The ONLY hope for you Trekker is to let go of your SATANIC theology, and TRULY repent ... turn from all sin. When you do that you will no longer be justifying suicide nor any other sin.

Repentance is agreeing with God. He HATES sin! He will not let ANY sin into heaven, regardless of one's "claims" of believing in Him. WHAT A JOKE! "I believed in you" ... "but I killed myself ... I didn't trust You to take care of me ... I didn't trust you to solve my problems .... I didn't trust you to fix the situation that I was in, Lord ... but You've got to let me into your heaven ... I made a profession of faith when I was 8 years old ... "

Faith is trusting. FACE REALITY, TREKKER .... People who trust God do not take their lives. Heaven is for believers ... people who trust God.

Quote:

Suicide is "NOT AN OPTION" and everyone should draw that line in the sand Now, before things in life get REALLY hard.

Many would be wise to take heed of these words.

AMEN! AMEN!

Quote:

Suicide is "NOT AN OPTION" and everyone should draw that line in the sand Now, before things in life get REALLY hard.

Many would be wise to take heed of these words.

AMEN! AMEN!

Repentance is agreeing with God. He HATES sin! He will not let ANY sin into heaven, regardless of one's "claims" of believing in Him. WHAT A JOKE! "I believed in you ... but I killed myself ... I didn't trust You to take care of me ... I didn't trust you to solve my problems .... I didn't trust you to fix the situation that I was in, Lord ... but You've got to let me into your heaven ... I made a profession of faith when I was only 8 years old ... "

Faith is trusting... People who trust God do not take their lives. Heaven is for believers ... people who trust God.

If you are thinking about taking your life, FACE REALITY ... You will go straight to the eternal flames of hell and scream in anguish and pain forever and ever. The torment that you are in right now cannot compare to the torment that you will experience in ONE minute of hell. There is no getting out of it. The hopelessness and despair linger on and on forever and ever.

REPENT OF YOUR SINS! Turn away from sin! Receive Jesus into your life today, and let Him cleanse you from ALL sin! Trust Him with your life. If you do not trust him with your life on earth, you CANNOT live in heaven.

Edit: I deleted my post I was wrong for coming into this thread in the first place. Killing yourself is a selfish act that demonstrates a complete lack of faith in God.

rdg

My stance on suicide is Satan's objective is to kill, steal, and destroy. If he can get you to do it yourself he won. I also feel it is a cowards way out and a complete disregard and disrespect to God the Creator. Not to mention the aftermath of it all when your family has to deal with the problems you left behind. I was once suicidal and God pricked my heart with His word. After this conviction flooded my heart the Lord spoke even deeper to me "I am not done with you yet" and thoughts of being their for my family especially my little brother came rushing in.

Do I know what happens to those people? I don't claim to know but I do know that it isn't fair to your family and friends to have to live through that.

Jesus-is-God:

Amen! Ann. You said it well.

Lordoitagain wrote:

"If you do not trust him with your life on earth, you CANNOT live in heaven."

AMEN!

JiG wrote:
You both say that you don't believe in OSAS but you do.

Anyone that leaves the impression that suicide is acceptable to GOD is playing Russian Roullette with the souls of any vulnerable person out there and in the Tribulation, Most will be vulnerable and I asked you to think about 'that'

I am more concerned about your NON-fear of condemning thousands to hell by the power of your own belief instead of what the Scriptures actually state.

Now about OSAS, I am freely admitting that the closest I’ve came to believing in it was in Krispy’s post on the first page of this thread! (How do you like them apples?!! (huge ‘friendly’ grin)) I try to deal in logic most of the time and his really made me think (part reposted below)....

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Suppose we take this logic that if someone commits suicide they cant repent therefore they can not go to heaven. (Of course we are assuming we're talking about someone who professes to be a Christian) Now... apply that logic to the following situation: You are struggling with a sin, or a sinful attitude, or sinful thoughts. You're driving down the road and BOOM... you're blindsided by a drunk. You never saw it coming.

Uh oh... no time to repent! Your goose is cooked. 20 years of walking with the Lord, but you go to hell because you couldn’t repent of whatever it was that you were struggling with that day.

Surely you don’t believe that.

So how can we say someone who may be dealing with emotional or mental problems that to them seem beyond their control... and in a moment of distress they take their own life... and because they can’t repent of that their salvation is null and void?

God bless you, JiG!
Lisa

I must say it is easier to have an opinion on this as long as we don't have to face people who have dealt with it personally.

I have shared the same thought as Krispy with people who have lost family members.

A lady I work with lost her 14 year old to suicide. I wept with her all night at work. She wants to see him again. I told her weeping, he wants to see you too, and to say he loves you. I will gladly stand before the Lord with that answer. I believe the boy is with the Lord.

The fact is God loses the fruit of a righteous life and the desiny He planned for a life when this happens. It should NEVER happen but it does.

I was in the E-Room with friends who's son had killed himself. His mother ( a close friend in the Lord) wailing at me, please tell me my son didn't go to hell! Those events have tempered my views on this troubling subject.

Thanks
Russell

Russell,

I have been in similar situations myself. I was with a mother whose 14-year-old had shot himself in the head from the side. He didn’t die immediately. In the hospital, she was holding his hand. She told him: “son, we are putting all of these things in God’s hands”. When she said that, he squeezed her hand. He was otherwise totally motionless. He died shortly afterward. I of course hoped with her that in those moments before he passed from this life, in the prayers of his heart and in his mind, he confessed his sin to God and repented. We all certainly HOPE for the best, but to assure someone that their loved-one went to heaven; we take God’s place as Judge of the universe. We can’t even positively give that assurance to the family of people who died naturally. In the case of suicide we take the chance of damning other souls to hell if we assure the living that the dead murderer is in heaven.

How can we be softer that what God’s word declares?
Look at how Pastor Peter talked to the wife of the deceased: Acts 5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

Regardless of how we in our “compassion” soften the blow of God’s Word, each will stand before Him and receive the proper sentence that His Word has already defined.
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Regardless of one’s claim of faith, it will not stand on that day, if works of evil accompany the claim.

rainydaygirl wrote:
I wanted to ask Lysa and Trekker if you don't believe killing yourself is sin, or murder and that those who do kill themselves still may go to heaven how would you counsel them? If you believe a person who is miserable in this life will go to heaven even if they kill themselves how would you advise them not to do so?

Edit: I deleted my post I was wrong for coming into this thread in the first place. Killing yourself is a selfish act that demonstrates a complete lack of faith in God.

I agree thoroughly that suicide is a lack of faith in God but instead of hyper-focusing on a person’s lack of faith and condemning them to hell for it; wouldn’t it far better to ask what war is (or was) going on in that person’s life that so over took their mind? Because honestly I do not believe that someone who takes their own life CAN BE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND. (I’m not yelling, just providing an exclamation for that point!)

I have counseled with those contemplating suicide. Number one, I was honest with them that had I gone through with my own plans, I did not know where I would have gone eternally. I didn’t tell them this but to be quite honest, rdg, I was hurting so bad I didn’t care where I would go, so I can say that sadly, THAT is not what kept me from taking my life.

There were a few reasons but the main one was a vision that Christ gave me one night of where I was in the scheme of this world and how in my mind’s eye, I couldn’t see around the corner but He was in a jumbo jet and could see to the end of my life; and He showed me that it was all going to be ok.

I will be honest with you, I am not stuck in the mud on this, if my Jesus shows me that I am wrong on this, I will change what I believe and shout it from the rooftops!

Until then, God bless you,
Lisa

I know you deleted your post, but I have kept it open in a word document working on it while working, sleeping and cooking!! I hope you do not mind me replying to it now.

I agree thoroughly that suicide is a lack of faith in God but instead of hyper-focusing on a person’s lack of faith and condemning them to hell for it; wouldn’t it far better to ask what war is (or was) going on in that person’s life that so over took their mind? Because honestly I do not believe that someone who takes their own life CAN BE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND. (I’m not yelling, just providing an exclamation for that point!)

I have counseled with those contemplating suicide. Number one, I was honest with them that had I gone through with my own plans, I did not know where I would have gone eternally. I didn’t tell them this but to be quite honest, rdg, I was hurting so bad I didn’t care where I would go, so I can say that sadly, THAT is not what kept me from taking my life.

There were a few reasons but the main one was a vision that Christ gave me one night of where I was in the scheme of this world and how in my mind’s eye, I couldn’t see around the corner but He was in a jumbo jet and could see to the end of my life; and He showed me that it was all going to be ok.

I will be honest with you, I am not stuck in the mud on this, if my Jesus shows me that I am wrong on this, I will change what I believe and shout it from the rooftops!

Until then, God bless you,
Lisa
------

i actually deleted the post because i realized i should not have come into this thread, but you saw it and were working on a reply before I could edit so its my own fault. lesson learned for me to be way more mindful and in prayer before i post. i don't have any other thoughts on this matter so i will just leave it there.

God bless you as well
rdg