Do you sin?

This seems a simple question. I'm no longer sure the answer is quite so simple. Reading posts within many website forums as well as in discussion with Christian associates I'm becoming a little confused in this area. At times it seems many Christians honestly believe they do not sin. Would some of you folks help me to better understand such perspectives from your personal thoughts and interpretations? ie Do YOU sin?

Hi! 'Jimur'

Yes, your question would be a rather simple one to answer ... that is of course, if everyone is on the same page while defining/understanding what 'sin' might exactly be. Is it an act? A power? A violation? A depravity affixed to man's intrinsic nature? Is it a synonym for 'the flesh'? An alternative name of Satan?

There is a multitude of varying ideas about 'sin' which I have noted being discussed in here.

Whatever the case, I have never met a single person nor have I read of anyone participating in this Forum who has claimed to be somehow beyond sin.
Have you?

Guilty.

What scares me is how many Christians defend Sin, It seems that many do not want a Gospel of deliverance from the bonds of Sin but rather only a gospel that saves from the punishment of sin.

We need to stop trying to Justify our circumstances by the Bible as did the pharisees but rather allow the Bible to transform our circumstances.

some scriptures that stick out in my mind are
John ch 8
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

((36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed))

1 John ch 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Romans ch 6
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid.(strongest negative in the Greek!) How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness

We can live moment by moment in complete victory if we walk After the Spirit and not after the flesh
Galatians ch 5 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh

there is not one temptation that we have to give into, not one sin that we have to committ, as Christians
1 Cor ch 10
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

But we never get to a place in this Life that we are incapable of Sin
1 Cor ch 10 v 12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

If We Live in the Spirit let us also walk in the Spirit Galations ch 5
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another

Lets Lay our circumstances to the side and believe the Scriptures and experience some victory.

I have met, known, and continue to associate with a surprising number of Christians who earnestly believe and teach a Christian can not and does not sin. People who bear fruit which is equal to and/or surpasses that apparent in my life. Some are very quick to question my salvation and even suggest I have lost it due to my [at times open] confession of a recent sin and claim I must be saved again in order to start anew. I'm not offended one might suggest I am lost, nor am I questioning my salvation, looking for justification, or attempting to debate the issue with those who are of this belief. I simply desire to better understand the particular view and or theology of the presence of personal sin in the life of a Christian. This being a non denominational oreinted forum I thought perhaps there might be some here who [openly] hold to these views. These seemingly sincere folks present a good amount of scripture in support of their belief. My personal interpretation aside, very good examples can be found in 1John as presented by the previous poster.

**edited in [openly]

1 John 3:6 (KJV)
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 3:8 (KJV)
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:9 (KJV)
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Quote:
"These seemingly sincere folks present a good amount of scripture in support of their belief. My personal interpretation aside, very good examples can be found in 1John as presented by the previous poster."

Are these people playing word games, i.e. are they simply saying that when a Christian "sins" that it does not count as a "sin" because they are a Christian? That somehow the atonement means that any wrongful act on the part of the Christian cannot be considered a "sin" because it has been paid for?

Example: One of these persons you are talking to commits a bad act. Do they: 1) deny that they ever committed the bad act, or rather 2) say that since they are "saved" and their past present and future sins are forgiven, that their bad act cannot really be considered a "sin?"

If #1, then these people are dishonest and lying (unless of course they are ALWAYS perfect little angels, which I sincerely doubt). If #2, they have a warped view of the atonement and are playing word games.

To plainly answer the question, yes, to my shame I find that I sin daily, whether in thought word or deed.

I desire and seek to be filled with God's Spirit through prayer and meditation of His Word; some days I do that more than other days.

Throughout the course of any given day, my thoughts are not as perfect as I would like them to be all the time. I also stumble(sin) in my speech in being too harsh sometimes with others, or in other ways. I am sure I could be more devoted to the Lord and His kingdom than I am currently, so that would make me guilty of sins of ommission. So I find that I need the promise of 1John 1:7 and 1John 1:9 daily, the blood of Jesus cleansing me from all sin/unrighteousness.

That said, I also praise God for the victory I have experienced in Jesus Christ over and over since being born again of His Spirit back in 1998.

The Lord has broken the chains of sin in my life in a mighty way. He delivered me from alcohol and drugs, fornication and lust, debauchery, gang violence, a prison lifestyle and mentality, anger, hatred, racism, the list could go on and on. He has indeed brought me out of the darkness and into His marvelous light. He has pulled me out of the miry clay and set my feet upon a solid Rock which Christ Jesus my Righteousness and Sanctification and Redemption. He has put a new song in my heart, even praise unto my God.

If it wasn't for His amazing grace and mercy I would be spending an eternity in hell right now, or still completely lost having no hope and without God in this world.

The Lord has been faithful to deliver me from a multitude of temptations that would have ensnared me.

And even when I have been unfaithful He has remained faithful, and has lovingly disciplined me. I praise God for continuing to show me my shortcomings and disciplining me so that I may be more and more conformed to the image of His Son.

Some may call it defending sin; I think of it as being honest with God, myself and others, and avoiding a delusion and deception of the enemy.

I am just so thankful for the grace of God that has been so richly poured out in my life. I miss the mark so often it seems. Praise God for His forgiveness.

Thanks everyone for your input. I'll continue to study and
pray for understanding.
Just to answer a couple of questions, the folks with whom I am most in contact with who express this idea are really wonderful people. They just will not admit committing sin in their life at any time. Yet they do claim they are not perfect. All other statements are very vague and generalized apart from the scriptures they reference at times.
I'm afraid I may have asked a question which could lead to
some controversy and division so perhaps we should end this here. I do very much appreciate your input.
We can all be thankful and assured, Jesus saves.

Hi! 'Jimur'

Sin, What Is It?

The bible teaches that the devil is the source of all evil. He is identical with sin, sickness and death. He is the substance and author of unrighteousness. Without the devil there is no sin, and where he is, darkness reigns. Satan and his angels are united with darkness by means of eternal bonds. John says, "He who commits sin is of the devil"; this means: has been impregnated by the devil.

In the days of James there were people who wrongly thought that they were "tempted by God". When man commits sin, the origin of his iniquity is not in himself but in the evil powers whom he has had fellowship with. James 1:15 says that sin is born in the unseen world after having been conceived. The impregnation takes place from the outside.

Temptation may be passive as well active. It is passive when a person, through his desires, draws evil towards himself; active when he tries to convey it towards somebody else. As for God, the apostle shows that it is impossible for Him to be involved in any way: "God cannot be tempted with evil [passive] and He himself tempts no one [active]", (James 1:14).

God has nothing to do with sin. "But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire". The devil shows the person something enticing [active], and then his desires begin to covet it [passive]. Never is evil the product of fellowship with God. This is impossible. "No one born of God commits sin, for God's nature abides an him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God", (1John 3:9).

God is spirit and, coming from Him, the Holy Spirit unites Himself with man's born-again spirit. Good works are the fruit of this fellowship. The fruits of fellowship with the evil spirits are sinful works.

The origin of good and evil are both in the spiritual world. In natural life it takes intercourse to conceive fruit. The same applies to the spiritual or unseen world. The results show in the works which are called after the conceivers: fruits of the Spirit or works of darkness. Thus sin is a fruit in the spiritual world, brought about as a result of fellowship between a human spirit and an evil one. In the visible world sin manifests itself by means of the flesh. as work of the flesh.

The bible uses the word sin in four different meanings.

1.
It says that sin came into the world through one man. Here the word sin indicates the unclean and evil spirits and their master: Satan. He took the government of the world away from man. He became the ruler of this world and through (the powers of) sin he rules as a king. This is the meaning in which the following texts have to be taken: "You were once slaves of sin"; "He who has died is free from sin", (as the wife is free from her husband after his death); "Set free from sin"; "Sin deceived me"; "So then it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells in me".

2.
However, just as child is named after his father so the fruit of the evil one is also called sin. "I am writing this to you that you may not (commit) sin". "He who commits sin is of the devil". The verb "to sin" has the meaning of committing a sinful act. "Go and do not sin again". "Who sinned, this man or his parents?". "Be angry but do not sin".

3.
There is the conception and the birth of sin. In between the two above stages, sin is in the inner man in a kind of embryonic state.

This is the stage of the sinful thoughts, developing in the spiritual and unseen world. Desire has been impregnated, it has conceived, but as yet sin has not been brought forth as an act. An example of this is hate, of which the Lord said that before God it is regarded as murder. So is lust: "Everyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart".

and, 4.
The fourth meaning of the word sin is: that which after an act of sin the guilt or debt of sin stays behind in the soul. The bible calls this the treasure of wrath.
Scripture also mentions another, positive treasure in heaven: that which we store up by means of good works.

The following verses have the word sin in the meaning of debt or guilt: "The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world". "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her". "In whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins". Jesus took sin away on the cross at Calvary. There God made his Son to be sin, that is, the Father put on Him the sins of the world that in Him we might be "the righteousness of God".

This righteousness is reckoned to us. "He is the expiation for our sins (guilt), and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world", (1John 2:2) . Notwithstanding this act of deliverance on God's part for the whole of humanity the prophet says: "If favor is shown to the wicked, he does not learn righteousness (he goes on committing sin); in the land of uprightness he deals perversely and does not see the majesty of the Lord", (Isaiah 26:10).

This is an excerpt from a pamphlet titled "Bondage and Freedom" which is published on the TLJ Site:
http://www.tolovejesus.com/index.php/full-gospel-books/bondage-and-freedom

I have noticed that many of those that defend sinless perfectionism often avoid answering the simple question, "Do you sin?". They would make it out to be a more complicated question than it really is. The Word of God makes it very clear as to what sin is. It is transgression of God's perfect and holy Law whether in thought, word, or deed(1John3:4).

One reason many proponents of sinless perfectionism avoid the question is because they know that if they are truly honest with themselves and others they cannot really say they do not sin.

And many say that even if they do sin they still believe in the doctrine of complete sinlessness in this life, and try to promote it. Yet I believe it is not right to preach something to others that you yourself do not practice.

And then there are some who boldly lie by saying they do not sin when they actually do. I once knew such a person. I would see him commit sins and he would preach sinless perfection and claim it. He was deceived by this destructive doctrine and it was sad.

jimur, if you have the time, I would encourage you to check out this thread from not too long ago here:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=45444&forum=36&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=0

This one may also be of interest:
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=45510&forum=36

Oracio Thank you for the post and the links. For me, they were indeed helpful and in fact did lighten my burden. Had I found them earlier I may not have posed the question. The second added to my thoughts this idea perhaps stems from a hyper edge of a more widely accepted theology.

Heavenly Father, almighty and everlasting, in the name of our Lord Jesus forgive us our sins. Burden us the Spirit call them to our attention. Lead us in your truth, according to your will and that which is pleasing to you alone. Father grant us perseverance that we might follow in that truth into all truth and in such light eternally glorify you Sovereign above all. Amen

im maby misunderstanding ,brenda

are you saying if we are not in a stage of sinless perfection,we are sinning and therefor of the devil

so is it right to say ,that youve only been of god twice for a perioud of time ,,,andthe remainder of time your went back to being of the devil ,like adam

Question : What happens if you sin?

Answer : The same thng as happened to Adam, you forfeit your place in paradise. He that sins belongs to the devil.(krautfrau)

That would mean that those trusting in Christ as Savior and Lord lose their salvation everyday if they commit one sin everyday. It would mean one would have to remain sinless in order to remain saved?

That is a very hyper/extreme view of sinless perfectionism. So sad for those who get caught up in it.

Question : Have you been in this state?

Answer : Yes, twice but lost it again.(krautfrau)

So you lost your salvation twice and are currently unsaved because you are not currently sinless(in another recent thread you asked for prayer in that regard).

How sad krautfrau. That is not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Hope you can come to a place where you see such deception of the enemy and repent and trust in Christ and Christ alone for your salvation. I will pray for your deliverance.
Sincerely,
Oracio

Oracio Thank you for the post and the links. For me, they were indeed helpful and in fact did lighten my burden. Had I found them earlier I may not have posed the question. The second added to my thoughts this idea perhaps stems from a hyper edge of a more widely accepted theology.

Heavenly Father, almighty and everlasting, in the name of our Lord Jesus forgive us our sins. Burden us the Spirit call them to our attention. Lead us in your truth, according to your will and that which is pleasing to you alone. Father grant us perseverance that we might follow in that truth into all truth and in such light eternally glorify you Sovereign above all. Amen(jimur)

I'll take mercy and grace.

Hi krautfraeu. I'm not sure how this works so you'll have to help me out here.

I presume you had to achieve perfection prior to your first salvation since you state;

quote:

Question : What happens if you sin?

Answer : The same thng as happened to Adam, you forfeit your place in paradise. He that sins belongs to the devil.(krautfraeu)

Do the scriptures tell us Adam was never saved and forfeited his place in Paradise? At any rate, based on your statement it seems one would have to achieve perfection prior to salvation. If one is at that time perfect, how is it one would have need for salvation at that time? How does one achieve such perfection if one belongs to the devil? Is salvation not required but just desired? Is there no form of assurance since you say you have in the past, lost that state of perfection and sought salvation again. Does assurance simply come from the state of perfection? Exactly what purpose does Christ have in this system? Does one become lost at the first sin committed or are there other clauses which grant temporary assurance until you reach a certain point in sin? Sorry, I guess that wouldn't fit since anyone who sins belongs to the devil, or would it? Does one simply lose this feeling of utopia if this point in sin is reached? Another problem I have in understanding is, if you have reached perfection how is it possible to fall into sin again? Doesn't sound too perfect a state to me and if there is no assurance what's to do, start over, or go straight to jail without passing Go? So many questions. If possible could you please explain this entire process? Does it contain a sort of "plan or even purpose of salvation" which you could point me to in scripture? Is there a location where the congregation meets for instruction, fellowship and learning? Does it have a denominational or similar name?

I apologize if my questions offend, seem inappropriate, rude or disrespectful. That is not my intention, I simply know of no other way than to ask.

Thanks for your post krautfraeu, I look forward to your reply.

There is no sinless perfection this side of eternity. Our hearts might try to deceive us as they are deceitful. We may get a 'feeling', be in a state, or whatever, but the word of God can't be wrestled with.
If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8 context there is speaking of christians.
The problem with this doctrine is that whether you are walking in victory or not at any given moment, your focus is on yourself and how you are performing, instead of resting your gaze upon Him who is our Savior.
No assurance here in this doctrine, just pride and misery. I rest in the grace of God in Jesus Christ who has saved me to the uttermost

Lloyd

Matthew ch 14
24 But the ship was now in the midst of the sea, tossed with waves: for the wind was contrary.
25 And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.
26 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.
27 But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.
28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

I sure wished you would have said please, just a yes or no answer. :) You should never leave yourself open to a question like that amongst Christians, they will quote you every scripture in the Bible as a way to get around a yes or no answer. By the way, YES! I sin.

Whatever is not of God is sin.

We sin when we are walking after the flesh and not walking after the Spirit.

The Word of the Cross says to be a Christian, one must die t ohis or her life in this world and not be joined to anything in their heart but to Him.

The primary reason that people are worldly and fleshly (lustful, carnal) and also religious, is that they do not see the true concept of the cross of Jesus Christ. The true concept of the cross says that not only Jesus died on the cross for our sins, but that we died with Him, to no live no lonver for ourselves, but for Him who gave Himself for us.

The Word of the Cross is offensive to the flesh and will cause men and women who are in the flesh to persecute the one who preaches it (Gal 5:11).

1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

Pilgrim

Whoa.... Don't drink the kool aid folks...

krautfrau I understand it is very difficult to explain an entire theology in a few brief posts which could be easily understood by one of an opposing view. There are simply too many aspects in which to consider introduced contradiction.
I think you are aware we have very opposing theologies. You have been very accommodating in regards to my questions in this thread. I respect and appreciate that and do not desire to bring pressure by over extending my inquiries. Should you post additional explanatory comments for myself and others I will certainly take note and remain in appreciation. [edited spelling]

jim

In your name precious Jesus, praise and all glory to you. Thank you Lord for your saving grace of infinite expression and actions at Calvary. Lord thank you for your shed cleansing blood, for each priceless drop from your brow on your path to the cross. Each drop so desperately needed by man. Lord Jesus, I prostrate myself before you, a saved sinner revealed in shame, humble and undeserving of such Holy compassion. In this blood Lord, I plead mercy and light for all who seek your truth and that in this light we might thru this blood achieve that which is ever pleasing and true according to your word. Amen

Yes. And it sickens me more now, after years of knowing Christ, than it did then. I hate it more today than then, both in me and in others. I hate what it does to God's children. I hate how it seperates us from him, how it deludes those still lost, and entangles those who have been made free by Christ, dragging them down so they lose their freedom and joy, perhaps even turning away entirely for one reason or another.

If not for grace, which of us could stand before Him? Who would dare?

But for that blood....

Praise God!

krautfrau...aka Brenda,

Why are you adding sin upon sin?

You are not only teaching damnable heresy, but you ought not to be even at-tempting teaching men, as it so happens that God has created you a woman!

Let a woman be learning in quietness with all subjection.
Now I am not permitting a woman to be teaching nor yet to be domineering over a man,, but to be in quietness"
(for Adam was first molded, thereafter Eve,
and Adam was not seduced, yet the woman, being deluded, has come to be in the transgression)."
Yet she shall be saved through the child bearing, if ever they should be remaining in faith and love and holiness with sanity." 1 Tim. 2:11-15

savannah,

If the moderators have a problem with her sharing her views along with the other women on this forum, I am sure they would have let her know a long time ago, so why do you presume to censor her?

Do you believe women have the Spirit of Christ and that Christ opens His Word to them and gives them revelation?

And how is she dominating you? (the word actually says "usurping authority") Your patriarchy is showing so I have to ask where have you been seduced? Most patriarchy that I have seen manifests itself in "spiritual bulliness" and that is exactly what you are doing. You have no authority over anyone in a public forum where views and opinions are shared. None of us do. Instead of coming back to her with a spiritual rebuttal from the Word you would rather choose to shut her down using God's Word of all things.

Since you are all about grace, how about extending some to her?

Pilgrim

pilgrim777 said,

"Your patriarchy is showing so I have to ask where have you been seduced?"

The only "patriarchy" showing here is not one of seduction but of Biblical record and definition. If "patriarchy" has become a bad word to you due to your subjectivist experiences I cannot help that.

The word “patriarch” properly means “the head or ruler of a family”; and then “the founder of a family, or an illustrious ancestor.” It was commonly applied to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob by way of eminence, the illustrious founders of the Jewish nation, Heb_7:4; Act_7:8-9. It was also applied to the heads of the families, or the chief men of the tribes of Israel, 1Ch_24:31; 2Ch_19:8, etc. It was thus a title of honor, denoting “high respect.” Applied to David, it means that he was the illustrious head or founder of the royal family, and the word is expressive of Peter’s intention not to say anything disrespectful of such a king, at the same time that he freely canvassed a passage of Scripture which had been supposed to refer to him. - Barnes

Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they will keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
Genesis 18:18,19

Hi! 'Pilgrin777'

OUCH!
However, your comments were needing to be said.

I've been following a few Threads here of recent days which are addressing sin and sinless 'er whatever.
I've noticed that nearly all the people participating were arriving with all sorts of suppositions, assumptions and ideas which had nothing to do with the subject matter itself but which were, nevertheless, unconsciously framing it.

I hardly think there are any two people in here who might agree together what exactly sin is in the first instance. Consequently, there is no possibility of a mutual conclusion being reached with this Thread because all the participants are mostly talking past each other.

Any hope of a conclusion with this subject can only be found 'line upon line' and 'precept upon precept' and a Discussion Forum can be a very awkward place to accomplish that goal.

Unfortunately, I suspect that the Threads about 'sin' and 'sinless' will only get more convoluted as persons begin to shout even louder past each other.

======================
by pilgrim777 on 2012/7/7 21:27:52

savannah,

If the moderators have a problem with her sharing her views along with the other women on this forum, I am sure they would have let her know a long time ago, so why do you presume to censor her?
======================

Re: If the moderators have a problem with her sharing her views along with the other women on this forum, I am sure they would have let her know a long time ago, so why do you presume to censor her?

You are correct in that it is evident that the mods have not intervened in this regard. Nor have they intervened regarding my posts addressing them.

I have not addressed you pilgrim777, nor have I addressed you Blayne. Yet you presume on censoring my addressing and questioning of others here on the forum.

And Yes! I am 100% for God's Free Grace in His Gospel of Grace.

Faith alone in Christ alone to the Glory of God alone.

You are correct in that it is evident that the mods have not intervened in this regard. Nor have they intervened regarding my posts addressing them.

Well, they are probably sleeping, give them time.

How about we don't censor anyone and let them share? Does that sound ok?

Have these Sisters ever censored you?

We are all guests in a living room. It is not your living room and it is not mine. So, I would be rude to kick someone out that I did not invite, wouldn't I.

Pilgrim

Blayne, when you are walking in the Spirit you are walking sinless. Does anyone walk in the Spirit all the time? I never met anyone, but I have met some very, very Godly men who I would guess (because only God knows the hearts) walk in the Spirit a lot.

Pilgrim

pilgrim777,

You said,

"How about we don't censor anyone and let them share? Does that sound ok?"

You may take your own advice...and you may share...but I'll do what God has called me to!

Share is not a word that the inspired writers saw fit to use in regard to Biblical Truth. It's not even found in Scripture other than in 1 Samuel 13:20. And there it ought to have been translated plowshare rather than share as the KJV mistranslated it.

Hi! 'Pilgrim777'

In answer to your question:
YES, I absolutely and unreservedly agree with your comment saying: "When you are walking in the Spirit, you are walking sinless".

Jesus told a sinner: "Go and sin NO MORE"!, (John 8:11).
Have we Christians been told anything less by Jesus for our own lives?
"GO AND SIN NO MORE!".
Therefore, I rest my case.

What power there is in the name of Jesus!
"For it is He who will save his people from their sins", (Matt 1:21).

The verse doesn't say FOR their sins ... it says FROM their sins. Nor does the verse mean that Jesus forgives us our sins and yet still permits us to continue in our sins. No, on the contrary! It clearly says that Jesus desires to save us FROM our sins ... from our propensity to sin ... from the power of sin.

To believe otherwise means that we must re-invent Jesus to be no more than a "habitual forgiver".
Yes, there is indeed forgiveness, (Psalm 86:5,15).
But God's plan for our lives certainly does not include that we should continue to sin and then pray for forgiveness.
"To be saved from our sins" is testimony to His wonderful plan of Salvation! That we stop doing sins!

In the Old Covenant their sins were provisionally covered by animal sacrifices. But it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins, (Heb 10:1-4).
But Jesus Christ was manifested, that He could take away sins, and in Him is no sin, (1John 3:5).
"Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sins has not seen him and knew him not", (1John 3:6).

The key is that we must recognize Jesus as Lord, (Col 2:6), and not merely as a propitiation for our sins.

Most Christians are content to believe that the best they can do is perhaps sin a little less after their rebirth. They prefer that God brings forgiveness but not deliverance; saved, but not to the uttermost; saved from our sins but without our needing to turn from our iniquities. Few have the awareness that God wants everything concerning sin to stop.

In every temptation we face, we can do two things:
1. yield to the flesh, let it be fertilized by the enemy and sin.
2. Say "No" to the thoughts and inspirations/influences of evil spirits and not sin, Instead, overcome. After all, the Lord desires that we submit to Him and resist the devil, (James 4:7) and this is accompanied with the mighty promise that the evil will flee from us!

"Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin",(1Pet 4:1).

"Who let the flesh suffer", means preventing any conscious infiltration from the realm of darkness to be fertilized by our desires. For such a person, there is a radical break with sin! He confesses: Christ lives in me and in His presence, I no longer allow any sin whatsoever.

It is said that many Jews believed in Jesus, but "His Word found no place for them", (John 8:30-37) In other translations it says, 'found no effect'; meaning: made no progress, achieved nothing.
This is why Jesus said: "If ye continue in my word, you are truly my disciples and you shall know the truth (recognize), and the truth shall make you free", (John 8:31,32).

We should want our lives to be continuously be corrected by the Word. "If the Son makes you free, ye shall be free indeed", (John 8:36) This means being truly freed from sin.
I no longer am a slave of sin. Under grace, sin has no more dominion over me, (Rom 6:14).

What did Moses mean when he said in one breath, "Fear not; for God has come to test you, and that His fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not", (Ex 20:20)?
The fear of the Lord is a fear to sin and a hate of evil, (Prov 8:13).
"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not", (1 John 2:1).
When we fail, there is no reason to despair because we can fall back on: "And if anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous", (1 John 1:1).
Through faith and obedience it is our daily challenge to overcome ... to do what Jesus told a sinner saying, "Go and sin NO MORE"!, (John 8:11).
Have we Christians been told anything less by Jesus for our own lives? "GO AND SIN NO MORE!".

In this day, it's not that anyone can say that they continually live in the Spirit moment-by-moment. But, we like Paul too, "press on towards the high calling".

"Not as though I had already attained, either were already PERFECT: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Let us therefore, as many as be PERFECT, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing", (Phil 3:12-16).

===================
by pilgrim777 on 2012/7/8 0:16:04

Blayne, when you are walking in the Spirit you are walking sinless. Does anyone walk in the Spirit all the time? I never met anyone, but I have met some very, very Godly men who I would guess (because only God knows the hearts) walk in the Spirit a lot.

Pilgrim
===================

It is hard to describe what it is like to be in this state. It can be compared with being in love, that feeling of joy and excitement inside, that feeling of being in exctacy, bubbling up inside and the presence of God being so strong like the time when you first came to Christ and were forgiven. Once one has experienced it there is nothing to compare it to. The words in scripture suddenly have real meaning and especially the words joy and freedom. In this state there is absolute healing of all the scars of life. I went for over 30 years not knowing what I was missing but now I do. Nothing is impossible when one is in this state and sin is not even in the picture. Pleasing God is the only thought.(krautfrau)

They are baptisms or fillings of the Holy Spirit. I would agree that during that moment where one is caught up in the holiest presence of God one is purged of all sin, like Isaiah in Isa.6:1-8 and like John in Rev.1:17.

There have been and still are men and women of God who have had such experiences with the Lord who do not adhere to sinless perfection, but rather acknowledge their own shortcomings. The sad thing is that you would call them unsaved if they sinned but once in the course of a day.

Sin is sin Brenda, whether in thought word or deed, ommission or commission. It will not work to call certain sins "mistakes" or other names. It makes you proud and self-righteous and you don't even realize it.

The following scriptures declare the good news of salvation through Christ by faith, for yours and others' consideration here:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”(Rom.1:16-17)

"But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29"(Rom.3:21-29)

"What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,And whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”(Rom.4:1-8)

"Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.(Rom.10:1-3)

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree", 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."(Gal.3:10-14)

"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them"(Eph.2:4-10)

The same kind of faith that saved Abraham and all the other OT saints, is the same kind of faith that saves us today. It is a humble trust in the God who shows mercy to all who come to Him by faith.

Most Christians are content to believe that the best they can do is perhaps sin a little less after their rebirth.

If I am not mistaken (and correct me if I am misinterpreting you, Blayne), I think he is saying that MANY HAVE COME TO THIS PLACE(through wrong teaching and man-made doctrine) SOMETIME AFTER THEIR NEW BIRTH.

There is doctrine out there that "lowers the bar". That says you cannot overcome sins (of course WE can't). At some point in many Christian's lives, they take a left turn on the road of men's doctrine and they rationalize what "walking in the Spirit" means.

I don't think Blayne is saying that when someone is truly born-again these are their initial thoughts. Anyone who has been truly born-again has experienced an immediate hatred for sin and desire (place in them by the Law of the Spirit) to not sin against the Lord even once. The Spirit leads one to put to death the deeds of the flesh and when you experience this reality and subsequent closeness to God, it is wonderful.

By and by many will experience in their Christian life the watering down of the Word by man's teachings until they are comfortable with sin in their lives. This is not the walk that God has called us to.

Blayne, please correct me if I am misspeaking for you.

Pilgrim

I don't think Blayne is saying that when someone is truly born-again these are their initial thoughts. Anyone who has been truly born-again has experienced an immediate hatred for sin and desire (place in them by the Law of the Spirit) to not sin against the Lord even once. The Spirit leads one to put to death the deeds of the flesh and when you experience this reality and subsequent closeness to God, it is wonderful.(pilgrim777)

Complete agreement with you there pilgrim. That is a sound, biblical view of true conversion. It is what biblical reformed theology teaches. I'm not saying I am reformed, but sometimes you seem to have issues with all of reformed theology. I try to take in the good and discard the bad, that goes for any theological framework.

By and by many will experience in their Christian life the watering down of the Word by man's teachings until they are comfortable with sin in their lives. This is not the walk that God has called us to.(pilgrim777)

Again, complete agreement there brother. On the other hand there is a real danger of placing such a high standard and "burden" on true believers which impossible to meet this side of heaven. I am a little confused and don't understand why you wouldn't see that as a real danger brother. You seem to have no concern or problem with the doctrine of sinless perfectionism.

We are not lowering the standard of what it is to walk in the Spirit. We are simply defending the true gospel and grace of God.

Righteousness is both positional and practical in our lives. Because of the positional righteousness of Christ applied to us through faith, we are not condemned, even if and when we sin. Does that give us a license to sin? Certainly not. Like you pointed out, if we are born again we will hate sin with all of our being and seek to depart from all of it.

At the same time God works practical or experiential righteousness in and through us by His Spirit as we draw close to Him daily by faith. It is the process of sanctification as God continually conforms us to the image of Christ.

Again, complete agreement there brother. On the other hand there is a real danger of placing such a high standard and "burden" on true believers which impossible to meet this side of heaven. I am a little confused and don't understand why you wouldn't see that as a real danger brother. You seem to have no concern or problem with the doctrine of sinless perfectionism.

Hi Oracio,

Thanks for your comments. Glad to see we are more in sync than previously thought. Let me try to clear up an misconceptions about your perception of my views on the doctrine of "sinless perfection".

Let's examine another view of Righteousness, that we hear about today. Some take the view that one cannot be free from sin, just forgiven. In many places one sees the motto: "Christians aren't perfect just forgiven." The acceptance of imperfection and unrighteousness seems to be the norm for the church. What this motto really says to the world is, "I am a sinner just like you, but I'm forgiven and you are not." The emphasis is put on forgiveness instead of righteousness. Many have the attitude of a Christian minister who was in an adulterous relationship; when confronted he responded, "Every night before I go to sleep, I just ask the Lord to forgive me."

Is there more than forgiveness? Is there freedom from sin? Many respond to these questions by talking about the sin nature in the believer, saying one can never be free from sin because sin will always be in him until he dies. They say the righteousness of Christ in no way changes the carnal nature, neither does the carnal nature affect the divine nature. Here man finds himself in a schizophrenic dualism of confusion and failure. The emphasis is upon "saved IN sin" rather than "saved FROM sin". One finds himself living in a two story house with no connecting stairway. On one floor there can be no sin, while on the other floor there is nothing but sin.

In seeking a Biblical position let us consider the following; first there IS actual cleansing from sin. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to CLEANSE US from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS" (1 John 1:9). So, here is the step BEYOND FORGIVENESS; there IS CLEANSING from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. The blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin (v 7). When one is cleansed, he is SET FREE. The cleansing comes through a process of repentance, as "we walk in the light as He is in the light" (vs 7).

Second, there is release from the corrupt nature, "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead IS FREED FROM SIN." Rom 6:6-7. Just as Jesus Christ died for the sin of the world, so sin must die in me. Are you committed to total freedom from sin? You ask, "Do I believe I can reach a point where I CANNOT sin?" No, but I believe one can reach a point where they ARE FREE NOT TO SIN.

Third, there is a baptism of the Holy Spirit that renews the human nature. "He saved us...by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5). The baptism of the Holy Spirit is an infusion of God's love, and invasion of God's Spirit, a penetration of truth and righteousness, and an emancipation from sin. Only the Holy Spirit can reach the depth of man's being and bring radical change. God promised this as part of the New Covenant. God promised those in the New Covenant:

Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. Ezekiel 36:25-27

Christ came to make men righteous. This is more than a legal reckoning of faith; rather, righteousness is to be experienced as a work of the Holy Spirit. This is radical and immediate. The Holy Spirit will come as a fire to purge from all defilement, as a knife to circumcise the heart, and as a scribe to write God's laws on your heart. "Christ in you, the hope of glory", is the Holy Spirit in you bringing forth His righteousness (Colossians 1:27).

Hope this helps to answer your question.

Pilgrim

Thanks for the explanation pilgrim. I agree with your post. The only thing we may disagree on is on the belief in a "positional" as well as a "practical" righteousness in the life every true believer. Do you believe in a "positional" righteousness applied to our account by faith? Or do you reject that belief?

And the question still begs, as a Christian, do you sin, pilgrim? If so, do you lose your salvation every single time you sin and therefore need to get saved again?

RE: Savannah wrote /krautfrau...aka Brenda,
Why are you adding sin upon sin?
You are not only teaching damnable heresy, but you ought not to be even at-tempting teaching men, as it so happens that God has created you a woman!/

krautfrau just be glad that we are not in Boston in the 1660s as was Mary Dyer and Anne Hutchinson when men with such theolgy had power.

Oracio...And the question still begs, as a Christian, do you sin, pilgrim?

If Christians don't sin, why would we need repent and ask for forgiveness when we do sin? That would be an oxymoron.

RE: Savannah wrote on 2012/7/7 21:18:09
/You are not only teaching damnable heresy, but you ought not to be even at-tempting teaching men, as it so happens that God has created you a woman!/

Damnable heresy by whose standard?? the Synod of Dort??

Galatians ch 4
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Hi there Oracio,

Good to be working on this with you.

I believe 1 John 1:8 and 10 for the present and past.

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

And thank God for 1 Jn 1:9 for the future:
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

But this is not permission to sin.

As far as "positional" righteousness:

I think you are saying that just as God put righteousness to Abraham's account because of his faith, He does the same for us, who exercise faith in His Son. Faith is not righteousness. Through faith, righteousness is reckoned. Righteousness is a gift for faith to take.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Abraham's response to a promise was FAITH and the result was righteousness. The entire source is in God.

Justification deals with the lawless and God Himself puts away all they have lawlessly committed and places them before Him as righteous. All this is on the basis of faith and this is the same faith that we are commanded to continue to walk in, in order to actually experience righteousness.

So, yes, I believe in positional or imputed righteousness, but one must go on into experiential righteousness. God wants us to experience freedom from sin. Man must go on to a life of righteousness. The gift of righteousness produces works of righteousness (sanctification) which will produce the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5 and a life of holiness.

1Th_4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

Rom_6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Righteous works must follow true faith, but we don't have faith in our works, we have faith in the work of Jesus Christ.

Php_3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Blessings,
Pilgrim

Re: Brothertom wrote /But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
Romans ;written by Paul the Apostle AD 57-58..age 50-55?/

Romans 7 is a first person narrative of a past tense event

Christians should not have 2 opposing natures
Definition for bipolar: having or marked by two mutually repellent forces or diametrically opposed natures or views
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bipolar

again, thanks pilgrim for the clarification there.

One huge problem I see with sinless perfectionism is that it denies the positional righteousness of Christ and focuses only on an experiential righteousness. But I believe Scripture teaches we must have both to be true believers.

If you only believe in a positional righteousness you justify sin in your life, seeing the grace of God as a license to sin. 1Cor.6:9-10, Gal.5:19-21, and Jude 1:4 warn about that:"For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ."

On the other hand, if you only believe and hope in an experiential righteousness you have no real hope or assurance of salvation. In this mindset, as soon as you see any one sin in your life, you consider yourself to be lost. And you may very well be lost because you are not trusting in Christ and His righteousness but in your own.

Thus the need for a biblically balanced view of justification by faith in Christ alone.

"But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption"(1Cor.1:30)

One huge problem I see with sinless perfectionism is that it denies the positional righteousness of Christ and focuses only on an experiential righteousness. But I believe Scripture teaches we must have both to be true believers.

Well said, Oracio.

Righteousness reckoned to us at the new birth through faith is the door into the Sheepfold where we are commanded to then walk in righteousness. You cannot climb up some other way into the Sheepfold, though many try (many false doctrines).

If you only believe in a positional righteousness you justify sin in your life, seeing the grace of God as a license to sin. 1Cor.6:9-10, Gal.5:19-21, and Jude 1:4 warn about that:"For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ."

Absolutely and very well put. That is a false gospel and false security and is really unbelief, because they apparently believe in the power of God to justify but not to sanctify (deliver from present sin) and without holiness no man will see the Lord. That is what OSAS is built on - Positional Righteousness or Justification ONLY.

[quot]On the other hand, if you only believe and hope in an experiential righteousness you have no real hope or assurance of salvation.

Yes, the man-made doctrines that abound deceived many into believing that if they have positional righteousness, then that is all they need and all will be well. They deny the walk of righteousness, sanctification and holiness.

True righteousness by justification MUST HAVE FRUIT!

In this mindset, as soon as you see any one sin in your life, you consider yourself to be lost. And you may very well be lost because you are not trusting in Christ and His righteousness but in your own.

This is the problem. Trusting in one's own works and calling it God's works.

Thus the need for a biblically balanced view of justification by faith in Christ alone.

"But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption"(1Cor.1:30)

Yes, He became that for us and BECOMES that for us daily in reality and experience. Only for those that ARE IN CHRIST JESUS as the first few words say. In other words, 1 Cor 1:30 is saying it is a work of Christ and not a work of man and will never be a work of man.

Thanks a lot, Oracio.

Pilgrim

Hi Brother Tom, My point is becoming very misunderstood, but that is understandable, I was not real clear nor did I go into much detail. I do realize that there is a war between the Flesh and the Spirit.

I will quote Charles Finney whom also was very opposed to Augustines Original sin doctrine.

Are Men Born Sinners?
by A. T. Overstreet
Excerpts from Charles G. Finney's Sermon
THE EXCUSES OF SINNERS
Men plead a sinful nature for their excuse. And pray, what is this sinful nature? Do you mean by it that every faculty and even the very essence of your constitution were poisoned and made sinful in Adam, and came down in this polluted state by inheritance to you? Do you mean that you were so born in sin that the substance of your being is all saturated with it, and so that all the faculties of your constitution are themselves sin? Do you believe this?
I admit if this were true, it would make out a hard case. A hard case indeed! Until the laws of my reason are changed, it would compel me to speak out openly and say--Lord, this is a hard case, that Thou shouldst make my nature itself a sinner, and then charge the guilt of its sin upon me! I could not help saying this; the deep echoings of my inner being would proclaim it without ceasing, and the breaking of ten thousand thunderbolts over my head would not deter me from thinking and saying so. The reason God has given me would forever affirm it.

But the dogma is an utter absurdity. For, pray, what is sin? God answers--"transgression of law." And now you hold that your nature is itself a breach of the law of God--nay, that it has always been a breach of God's law, from Adam to the day of your birth; you hold that the current of this sin came down in the veins and blood of your race--and who made it so? Who created the veins and blood of man? From whose hand sprang this physical constitution and this mental constitution? Was man his own creator? Did sin do a part of the work in creating your physical and your mental constitution? Do you believe any such thing? No; you ascribe your nature and its original faculties to God, and upon Him, therefore, you charge the guilty authorship of your "sinful nature."

But how strange a thing is this! If man is in fault for his sinful nature, why not condemn man for having blue or black eyes? The fact is, sin never can consist in having a nature, nor in what nature is; but only and alone in the bad use which we make of our nature. This is all. Our Maker will never find fault with us for what He has Himself done or made; certainly not. He will not condemn us, if we will only make a right use of our powers--of our intellect, our sensibility, and our will. He never holds us responsible for our original nature. If you will observe, you will find that God has given no law prescribing what sort of nature and constitutional powers we should have. He has given no law on these points, the transgression of which, if given, might somewhat resemble the definition of sin. But now since there is no law about nature, nature cannot be a transgression.

Here let me say, that if God were to make a law prescribing what nature or constitution a man must have, it could not possibly be otherwise than unjust and absurd, for the reason that man's nature is not a proper subject for legislation, precept, and penalty, inasmuch as it lies entirely without the pale of voluntary action, or of any action of man at all. And yet thousands of men have held the dogma that sin consists in great part in having a sinful nature. Yes, through long ages of past history, grave theologians have gravely taught this monstrous dogma; it has resounded from pulpits, and has been stereotyped for the press, and men have seemed to be never weary of glorifying this dogma as the surest test of sound orthodoxy! Orthodoxy!! There never was a more infamous libel on Jehovah! It would be hard to name another dogma which more violently outrages common sense. It is nonsense--absurd and utter NONSENSE! I would to God that it were not even worse than nonsense! Think what mischief it has wrought! Think how it has scandalized the law, the government, and the character of God! Think how it has filled the mouths of sinners with excuses from the day of its birth to this hour!

Now I do not mean to imply that the men who have held this dogma have intelligently insulted God with it. I do not imply that they have been aware of the impious and even blasphemous bearings of this dogma upon Jehovah;--I am happy to think that some at least have done all this mischief ignorantly. But the blunder and the mischief have been none the less for the honest ignorance in which they were done.

http://www.gospeltruth.net/menbornsinners/mbs23.htm

Wow! do I really have to read all this to know if I as a Christian can sin? or can I just get a simple yes or no answer? I always thought this scripture was pretty simple and to the point.
1 John 1:9 (NLT)
But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness.

I have not read the whole thread but I thought the original question is a great question. I would answer it like this - We better not!
Our Lord said - If your right hand offends thee, cut it off! Because that offense could cause you to lose your soul! (paraphrase)
I think we give ourselves way too much room. The Lord told us to repent (change our mind and purpose / strong's ) and we better do it

Wow! do I really have to read all this to know if I as a Christian can sin? or can I just get a simple yes or no answer?

Well, he did ask for our personal perspectives and interpretations. Here is part of the original OP.

Would some of you folks help me to better understand such perspectives from your personal thoughts and interpretations? ie Do YOU sin?

Pilgrim

QUOTE: Well, he did ask for our personal perspectives and interpretations. (Pilgrim777)

Oh yes, and I honestly appreciate the input very much! They are most enlightening. I might draw attention to the beginning statements of my opening post. (jimur)

QUOTE: This seems a simple question. I'm no longer sure the answer is quite so simple.(jimur)

I especially like statements made within the very first response to the question.(jimur)

QUOTE IN PART: Yes, your question would be a rather simple one to answer ...

Whatever the case, I have never met a single person nor have I read of anyone participating in this Forum who has claimed to be somehow beyond sin.
Have you? END QUOTE

IMHO Often, as we seek to know more and more of God and His Word we tend to loose very basic simple biblical wisdom. We deluge ourselves with word studies, in depth analysis of biblical text, theologies, commentary, ideas and opinions of others and eventually end up with an understanding acceptable to self. After a while we begin to toss about words which have little to no meaning to most lost sinners as well as many who are saved. All which serve only to further their existing confusion or a means by which to impress others with whom we discuss this so called "deeper understanding" we have obtained.

I submit this thread as evidence to this. Thus far we have 7 pages of response consisting of 68 replies, and 1,660 views. Fewer than 1/3 of these replies contain a definitive yes or no answer to such a simple question. I am also curious about that 1,592 views. I wonder what percentage did not reply due to either intimidation, a lack of understanding, or shear boredom of content.

Don't get me wrong. We live in an era when we [esp. U S Americans] have access to tremendous resources of information non existent in the not too distant past. I truly wish I had remaining time and ability to read, digest, and study every slip available. I am not without fault in this area. However, I honestly believe this has helped to contribute to what appears to be the greatest "falling away" and lack of growth in church history.

Benjamin Franklin is quoted as having said, "Everything should be as simple as possible; but not simpler."

One very dear made this statement to me about 50+ years ago;
"Simple words is simple understood." This phrase has more meaning to me today than ever.

Again a heartfelt thank you to everyone participating in this thread and if allowed the pleasure, a SIMPLE little shout out for nostalgia.

I LOVE you Granny!!!.....and I do LOVE Jesus.

RE:Brother Tom Wrote /You have fell into this deception, and many believe it heresy; I do. The name of the heresy is:
....Pelagianism....., which views humanity as basically good and morally unaffected by the Fall. It denies the imputation of Adam's sin, original sin, total depravity, and substitutionary atonement.
It simultaneously views man as fundamentally good and in possession of libertarian free will. With regards to salvation, it teaches that man has the ability in and of himself (apart from divine aid) to obey God and earn eternal salvation.
Pelagianism is overwhelmingly incompatible with the Bible and was historically opposed by Augustine (354-430), Bishop of Hippo, leading to its condemnation as a heresy at Council of Carthage in 418 A.D.
These condemnations were summarily ratified at the Council of Ephesus (A.D. 431)...http://www.theopedia.com/Pelagianism/

Hi Brother Tom, You say that I have fell into heresy because I do not agree with what the Roman Catholics taught at Council of Carthage in 418 A.D..???

RE: Brother Tom Wrote /But David says about himself "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me./

Yes that is what it says however what it does not say is: Surely I was sinful at birth,sinful from the time my mother conceived me even though that is what Edwin Palmer wanted it to say.
Who is the Brother of Abigail and Zeruiah ??
Who is the Father of Abigail and Zeruiah ??

RE:Brothertom /:These condemnations were summarily ratified at the Council of Ephesus (A.D. 431)...http://www.theopedia.com/Pelagianism/

Here again I am not Catholic.

RE: Brothertom wrote /Now I understand why you think like you do. This is not the first post about this heresy here; and I am sorry you have fell into it. You have been indoctrinate; Dogma-tized by a man. This is a great lie. Yes, we all are born with a sinful nature within./

Sorry Brothertom, You do not know why I believe Like I do. Let me tell you why. Because for years I believed in a sinful nature and as Romans 7 as the normal Christian Life and I was a Slave to sin a slave to habitual sin gross disscusting habitual sin, telling myself well Paul probably was dealing with the same sin and besides It is just my old sin nature taking control. I wanted to stop but I could not, the more I tried the more I failed Romans 7 a man under the Law, Listen I could not overcome Sin on my own, the mainstream Christian books on how to get victory over sin that I had read, I found not to be much different from the teachings like AA uses.
Saintification is by Faith not Works, Yet what I see mostly of mainstream Christianity is that they teach Saintification by works. I see church sighns holding meetings For AA.
They do not seem to preach any power.

RE: Brothertom wrote /I suggest that you throw away these teachings that have swayed you against the Word of God, and begin to read the Word unswayed by any other, with the Holy Spirit guiding you. This may sound harsh, but your very salvation may be resting on how you address this issue by faith. The early fathers rejected it, wholeheartedly./

Amen, lets throw our traditions away and read the Bible and Rely on the Holy Spirit to guid us unto all truth. I do not doubt I am flawed in some of my understandings let me not become so assured in my beliefs that I would argue with God as did the Pharasies.
But what you wrote Brothertom used one verse and a what the early Roman Catholics taught at there Councils to try to convince me that your understanding is of the truth.

RE: brothertom wrote/ The early fathers rejected it, wholeheartedly./

Really who are you calling the Early fathers? Augustine??

Did You Write, Always a bad seed?? https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=44973&forum=40&25

Augustine was a Roman Catholic
Augustine according to The Pilgrim Church a Church history book recommended by Leonard Ravenhill.
believed one had to be in Catholic Church to be saved.
Augustine taught in Regenerational Baptism, because of this and his view of Original Sin, Hence we have infant baptism. Brothertom I would encourage you to study Church history on how those whom believed in infant baptism treated those whom believed in believers baptism.\\
Augustine also taught just war and persecution of the heratics
The new Foxes Book of Martyrs John Fox rewritten updated by Harold J chadwick p.56

referring to Papal persecutions and the Inquisition
/They justified the horrors they committed by wresing Old Testament Scriptures, and by appeal to (Augustine), who had interpreted luke 14:23 as endorsing the use of forse against heretics: "Then the master said to the servant, 'Go out into the highways and hedges,and compel them to come in,that my house may be filled."/

RE: Brother Tom wrote /I sincerely hope you get delivered. You were born in sin, and conceived in iniquity, and the stark thing for you to look at, is that yourself IS your nature, and it is sinful. Most do not want to look at this./

I really do not see a need of going back into the Bondage of hibutal sin and excusing it as a sin nature rather I Believe What I need to do is to press more into the reality that I died with Christ 2000 years ago and that I am dead and free from the bondage of sin and listen and be filled and moved of Gods Spirit. I need to more consentrate on Walking in the Spirit so that I do not fullfill the Lust of the Flesh. When God reavels sin in my
life as he does, I need to confess my sins,because he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. But I need not use this as an excuse to sin. but he is faithful for he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Well Jimur,

All I can say is thank you for starting a very good discussion. Conversations have a tendency to branch into other ideas. That's just the nature of conversations.

Pilgrim

P.S. I have never met anyone who claimed they are beyond sin.

as so well put by someone earlier, guilty! Yet desiring God's work to change me and for His strength each day to walk in the Spirit.

About sin:
sin =
1)
a) to be without a share in
b) to miss the mark
c) to err, be mistaken
d) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour, to do or go wrong
e) to wander from the law of God, violate God's law, sin
2) that which is done wrong, sin, an offence, a violation of the divine law in thought or in act
3) collectively, the complex or aggregate of sins committed either by a single person or by many

transgression =
1) a going over
2) metaph. a disregarding, violating
a) of the Mosaic law
b) the breach of a definite, promulgated, ratified law
iniquity =
1) the condition of without law
a) because ignorant of it
b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness
unrighteousness =
1) injustice, of a judge
2) unrighteousness of heart and life
3) a deed violating law and justice, act of unrighteousness

but don't worry, when i checked all of these i noticed they are all feminine nouns, i guess that means this is a woman's problem :)

i guess the problem i see is that one who believes in sinless perfection believes they have come to perfect patience in their life, yet patience must be tested to be proven. Abraham and Sarah believed but they got impatient and figured God needed some help. Their impatience led them to work out their own solution to the situation, and then Abraham asked God to bless the mistake, the sin: Oh, that Ishmael would live before you! God said, no way!
If someone is sinlessly perfect do they believe they will never lack patience in any situation that arises in the future? Though you might claim you are trusting God for His continuing grace, yet aren't you trusting yourself for continued obedience.

quote: All I can say is thank you for starting a very good discussion. Conversations have a tendency to branch into other ideas. That's just the nature of conversations (pilgrim777)

I don't think you misunderstood, but just in case. This is an interesting discussion and very informative. Branching is often the beauty of discussion.

Again another problem with sinless perfection, and I think this ties into your new post Pilgrim (saved IN sin):

2 Tim 3:16-17 - "All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for TRAINING IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, that the man of God may be adaquate, equipped for every good work."
To me that sounds like it is through the word of God that I learn and am trained and adequate to live in righteousness. That would mean that in order to be sinless perfect i would have to know and understand the entirety of scripture, not one misunderstanding, not one scripture forgotten or dropped, having a complete understanding of it. We know there is only One who had this knowledge and wisdom: The Word of God Himself.

Brenda,

I hear what you are saying and I think the Lord wants us to have the attitude of heart that we should stop sinning. He set us free to NOT sin, and even tells us that WE SHOULD NOT SERVE SIN, since "he that is dead is freed from sin" (Romans 6:7).

Why would He tell us that we should not serve sin? Why tell us something that the power of the Holy Spirit was powerless to enable and accomplish within us?

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth WE SHOULD NOT SERVE SIN.

Also, if anyone ever reached a place where they were walking in the Spirit most of their waking day, they would have the humility not to talk (boast) about it.

Teaching that one should strive (in the Spirit not the flesh) to walk in the Spirit always is one thing, but to boast about it is quite another.

Pilgrim

krautfrau

I wasn't going to ask more questions but the interest in this thread remains luring. So a quick one prompted by your statement quoted only in part.

quote: ...God`s ways went against that thing inside of us(krautfrau)

Perhaps it's my misunderstanding but this seems backward to me. Is it not more accurate to state that thing in us goes against God's ways? I mean after all, we agree His is the standard correct? Just curious, thanx.

Hi Brother Tom. Alot of misunderstanding goes on in these forums and alot of wrongful sterotyping goes on as well.

RE: Brothertom wrote 1 Cor. ch 15 21 //For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.//

Brothertom is it here speaking of Physical Death??
Or Spirtual Death??

Brothertom what are your thoughts that v 22 says not only that (all) died in Adam but that even so shall (all) be made alive in Christ??

At what Point is a man personaly made alive in Christ??

RE: Brothertom wrote //"I am the way, the truth, and the life. NO MAN comes to the Father, except through Me!"... [and especially through his own good moral choices.]//

Actually the context for John ch 14 v 6 is this please read the context. compare your addition of //[and especially through his own good moral choices]// to verse 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John ch 14
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

RE:Brothertom wrote // And this is the affect of the lie, the heresy.
"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; [ or your good moral choices derived from the Law ] ye are fallen from grace!"//

Amen Brothertom, I Love Galatians It would serve me well to study through it again. It was a key element in me finding Grace and victory over habitual sin..
Listen it is neither me nor what I have read of Pilgrams post that are trying to bring men under the Law.
I am not saying that we need to be perfect of ourselves to be accepted of Christ which is impossable rather all I am saying is that it is possable to Walk in the Spirit, and not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

RE Brothertom posted //P.S. "I have never met anyone who claimed they are beyond sin." Pilgrim777//

I only ever met one person and it was on a forum (not SI) that claimed such not only from habitual sin but also in ever expect of Character to be sinless, before the disscussions where over and he wrongly sterotyped me, I think I proved to him that there was still some of the old self left in him.

I will say biblicaly speaking, We can have victory over every temptation but never will we reach a point to which we are incapable of sin.

RE: Brothertom wrote //Well, I take that to mean true Christians, Rick. There are many cults and the like who do not believe in sin, or having a sin nature. This teaching, in the end, denies the atonement of the Blood of Christ only, by teaching that man could attain holiness by obeying the moral commands of the law, and then partially accepting grace through Christ when one fails//

acctually believing Sin as Choice which we all have failed at Romans ch 1 v 18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold (not suppress) the truth in unrighteousness"
and therfore personally guilty and deserving of wrath rather than the Gnostic belief that Sin is substance. as what the Manichaeism Gnostics taught whom Augustine was a member of before his conversion. Does not denie the atonement of the blood of Christ only.
I believe in Power in the atonement. atonement is not a licence to continue Living a life of sin

2 tim ch 3 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

RE: Brothertom wrote //Why is this so important? It seems kind of "picky" doesn't it? The belief that we have the power to "save" ourselves by moral choice cuts across the need for the Cross itself, and diminishes Jesus' willful sacrifice downward as simply an element of Salvation, an accessory, if you will. It seduces the naive believer into a semi-faith of the Law and Christ, the same as the wicked Judaizers that plagued Paul.//

Amen, we can not save ourselves by works nor do our works make us exceptable before God only the finished work of Jesus does, I hope nothing I have said would make you think that I believe that keeping the Law makes us acceptable. Our overcoming the power of sin does not happen by trying to keep the Law as the man in Romans 7 was trying to do.

RE: brothertom wrote //"Jesus gave grace, sure, but it is up to me to choose to be good, and I can be!"; even holy into sinless perfection. In the end, it is Anti-Christ, and extremely subtle in it's attack upon true Christian faith. In my view, it is satanic. We are saved by Grace, through faith, and that in the holy sacrifice of Jesus' Cross alone, plus nothing. Our moral choices are like dung in the end of things, and thinking so is the same pride-lie the Pharisees taught; 'Whited Sepulchers" Jesus named them. Looking clean and white, but with dead man's bones inside//

Actually 1 John says 4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Is sarx sin ??

Hi Proclaimit wounderful post. I do not know everything and have many things to learn and room for growth and am open for God to change my perspectives. You bring such a wounderful heart and so much deep truth to the forum that I am hesitant to correct you, so rather than do that. I will offer another perspective on Romans 7.

RE: Proclaimit wrote //In Romans 7, the apostle Paul was speaking present tense of course.//

I personally have come to the conclusion That Romans 7 is clearly a first person narrative of a past tense event.

at verse 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died

This is a past tense event When Jewish paul was an infant with no law and no sin. as He matured and learned the Law it slayed him of his innocence, The death from innocence revived from his parents generation unto his own, Hence In Adam we all die 1 cor 15 v 22 the rest of the Chapter is past tense, a man under the bondage of the Law untill the conclusion and sollution of who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 (I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord)

anyhow just another understanding. Your Post is a wounderful blessing.

proudpapa,

I agree with you and v9 is a key verse. People think that Romans 6,7 and 8 are chronological but 6 shows the victory that comes from Christ, and 7 is flashing back to life without Christ under the law, then 8 is the crescendo that goes with 6.

We know that it is a past event because in Romans 7 he talks about getting free from the law by dying. Well, we know that Paul did not die physically to get free from the law. He died in Christ and was raised to newness of life.

Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Then, Paul goes on in Romans 7 to explain what he means by using an allegory of a marriage.

The law will always live on (heaven and earth will pass away but the law won't) and the only way to get free from it is to die and be raised to newness of life (born of the spirit).

Christ is the end of the law to all who believe.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Therefore, we must be in Christ, who is the end of the law.

We now live by the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus and this is great cause for rejoicing and glorifying God. (Romans 8:2).

Pilgrim

pilgrim777 thankyou my Love goes out to you, I must go to bed now. You have wounderful insight and I become humbled by how much more insight you have than I, I learn much from your post. Good night

Good night, proudpapa. I learn from everyone. I feel like I am just getting started all over again in this walk with the Lord. Like Savannah said, in "Perils of Perfectionism" (and I agree with this), "One of the true marks of our ongoing sanctification is the growing awareness of how far short we fall of reaching perfection." "But Jesus tells us to lay aside every weight and sin that so easily besets us and let us run with patience the race that is before us."

Also, if we are not being perfected in love, then we are not being perfected in anything.

1Jn_2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn_4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Let me repeat this from my thread "Some thoughts on Romans 7 and 8".
Further in Romans 8:14-17, for the first time the word "son" is found in the book of Romans. Here we notice a progression of truth, having discovered the liberty of the Spirit to live free of the flesh, he now discovers that "those who are being led by the Spirit, these are the sons of God," vs. 14. Not only free from sin, but placed before God as sons. Hallelujah!!

The consciousness of sonship comes as one begins to walk in the Spirit. One is to have his "mind set on the Spirit," and develop a consciousness of the Spirit of God who indwells him (vv. 9,11). As he enters this walk he will come to know the rest which belongs to the sons of God.

Pilgrim

Yes, I can agree with that too, Proclaimit.

Romans 7 is a picture of the saved or unsaved trying to perfect themselves in the flesh. Impossible! No victory is attainable.

The sin of the Christian is "self-improvement". We must live by His life. His life gives us the victory. His life overcomes.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Pilgrim