Cause/Effect…..Sin must has a Source

The root cause of sin is the Adamic nature

Sin in the lost, and sin in the saved, has the life of a man as its source the first Adam. Every honest believer who knows anything about the all-important Romans Seven experience realizes that the sins in his Christian life are identical to those of his unsaved life. They are the works of the same indwelling source the same all too familiar characteristics of the person of the first Adam.

Quote: The source of sin is not in Adam. Sin is the result of not totally living out from Christ's Himself.


This is where you theory fall’s on it’s face. I mean if we are not totally living out from Christ then what other life source do we have to live out of?

----------------------

1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

We have two sources of life one of the Soul, the other is of the Spirit to say that your not living totally out Christ is to say your are relying on the soul life and the soul life which comes from Adam.

-----------------------

You say Quote: “We are no longer in Adam” that is true in the positional sense. We who have received him (Christ) have been given the “power to become the Son of God” John 1:12 but “for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God” Roms 8:13

There is a big difference between receiving Christ and being a Son of God one is positional the other is practical…

A Son of God is spiritual he is led by the Spirit he flies like the eagle the things of this world do not have the power over him as he soars the heights. He has experienced the practical aspect of the cross in his life.

While the one who has received Christ, the child of God wants to soar like the eagle, he gets up in the air but finds that there is something a force like that of gravity that always seems to pull him down. That something in the child of God is his soul life that soulish fleshy nature is the Adamic nature and it holds back the child of God. He is in Christ postionally but has not yet yielded to the working of the cross practically to deal with his soulish fleshly nature…

The cause of his failure to soar is the effect of sinful Adamic nature

Edited --- spelling

There are only two natures, God nature and satanic nature.

Adam chose our nature when he believed the lie of the devil.

This is not "the devil made me do it", but it is the outcome of Adams choosing in whom he would believe, even though it was a lie.

Those that have been given the faith to believe what God has said, now have become filled with the nature of God. Christ in you the hope of Glory and the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

The root cause of sin is when we are carried away by our own lust and conceive our own sin.

The root cause of godliness is when we are carried away by the faith which has come to those that believe the truth.

Galatians 3:22-26 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Satan can no longer accuse us or rule over us before the Father, for we are now the children of God.

Satan nature out, God nature in.

In Christ: Phillip

Quote: The root cause of sin is when we are carried away by our own lust and conceive our own sin.

Roms 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

The root cause of sin is Sin in your body; it’s Sin that causes the lust. The Body of Sin is the Old Man.

Quote: The root cause of godliness is when we are carried away by the faith which has come to those that believe the truth.

The root cause of godliness can only be God

Quote: for we are now the children of God.

Gal 4: 1-2 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

In that regard I always found this one verse very telling:

1 Corinthians 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

a living soul vs. a quickening spirit! Revelation to really dig in deep into creation, and recognize the Creator's signature and will.

James 1:14-15 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Godly Faith; Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Truth;
Godly wisdom, Godly righteousness, Godly sanctification, Godly redemption.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Who is the root?

In Christ: Phillip

RE: murrcolr wrote
/The root cause of sin is the Adamic nature/

this does not seem to make since to me when we ask ourself one question, what Caused Adam and Eve to sin?? No one would say that Adam was born with a sin nature, therefore it can not be the root or source of sin.

Actually, the Bible says that the Love of money is the root of all evil.

How was Eve Tempted?
How was Jesus Tempted?
How are we tempted? the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life

As far a Romans 7 goes, It is a man under the bondage of the law, This Does not seem to make since in the Context of the Christian life for Paul.
Remember, The Book of Romans is Pauls argument to the Jews of how the Law of faith is supperior to the Law of works. Romans 7 taught as the normal Christian Life would never convince a Legalistic Jew That the Law of Faith is superior to the Law of works.

Quote: Now it is a divine fact that we have been crucified with Christ. We are NOW totally and absolutely dead. This is NOT a positional truth but an actual true reality

Eph 4:22-25 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man “Wherefore” meaning for this cause or for this reason “put away”

Col 3: 8-9 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds

Another scripture encouraging us to “put off “since we have put off the old man…

A few verse up in Col 3:5 we are encouraged to “Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth”

What your saying is correct “We have been crucified with Christ” but you miss it when you say “We are NOW totally and absolutely dead” because if we were totally and absolutely dead then we won’t be encouraged to mortify or in other words “put to death” our members on this earth and we wouldn’t be encouraged to “put away” or “put off” if was completely “put away” or completely “put off”

proudpapa said,

"As far a Romans 7 goes, It is a man under the bondage of the law, This Does not seem to make since in the Context of the Christian life for Paul."

Paul the apostle says,

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

In this section Paul continues to speak in the first person singular, but he leaves the past tense(of the verses preceeding) and uses the present tense.

The verb "carnal" is in the present tense. Paul is saying "I am continually carnal". He is not talking of his past unsaved state but of his present state.

If Paul had been speaking of himself before conversion, he would have used the word natural:

"the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God" (1 Cor. 2:14).

Carnal is not used to describe an unregenerate person, but a Christian not delivered from the power of the flesh:

"I, brethren could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, as unto babes in Christ" (1 Cor. 3:1)

"Paul is here describing the most spiritual and mature of Christians, who, the more they honestly measure themselves against God’s standards of righteousness the more they realize how much they fall short. The closer we get to God, the more we see our own sin. Thus it is immature, fleshly, and legalistic persons who tend to live under the illusion that they are spiritual and that they measure up well by God’s standards. The level of spiritual insight, brokenness, contrition, and humility that characterize the person depicted in Romans 7 are marks of a spiritual and mature believer, who before God has no trust in his own goodness and achievements." - MacArthur

Romans 7:16 But if what I would not, that I do, I consent unto the law that it is good.

W.E. Vine comments,

"This pictures a believer who finds himself in agreement with the Law by his disapproval of that which is forbidden by it. That he acts contrary to it is no evidence that he has a bad opinion of it. The conflict is not between the Law and the believer, it is between the believer and what the Law condemns.

"When a regenerate man does what he hates, his own mind testifies his approval of the law that prohibits the sin which he has practiced." - R. Haldane

Note:

The prominence of the first-person pronouns — I, me, my, myself, occur over forty times in verses 9–25.

Those who go through this Romans 7 experience are doing an introspective search for victory in self, where it cannot be found.

Hear the conclusion of the matter:

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:24,25

1 John 5:4 Because, whoever is born of God, overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, our faith.

Amen! By Grace alone through Faith alone in Christ alone to the Glory of God alone.

When this is learnt you've learnt of Him that Gospel which is of Him.

Of which John Newton exclaimed upon his deathbed,

"My memory is nearly gone, but I remember two things, that I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Saviour."

May your hope be in nothing less than Jesus blood and Righteousness.

To be like Jesus -- that's our goal
Though it doesn't happen fast;
We trust the Spirit -- He's our Guide,
Till we're glorified at last.-- JDB

Savannah,

Your gospel has no power as you misinterpret Paul in Romans.

Your gospel allows license to sin.

Pilgrim

Jesus-is-GOD,aka Dorcas,aka Linn,

You persist in at-tempting to teach men as your co-hort Brenda does.

You were warned and your name made anonymous by the moderators on a few occasions over the years,but such has not tamed your spirit. You were spreading false doctrine and were not submitted as a meek and quiet spirited woman ought to. Sadly you've not learned to be such a woman as the Scripture and the Spirit teach.

It is to your shame and to the bad health of both your body and spirit that you've not been humbled over these many years. I do pity you and pray that you'd repent that the LORD may have mercy upon you yet.

If you do not heed these words I fear lest a worse thing come upon you. It is not usual for me to speak thus,therefore I am beseeching you that you do not ignore what you read here.

You have a deeply hostile spirit toward "men" which must go! Your post exudes with that spirit,not the mere words but that which is behind those words which have surfaced.

It has been a long time comin' over these many years,and you've been exhorted and admonished more than a few times in your life. I speak not just concerning SI. You know of that which I speak.

I'd exhort you to go to the elders and confess,and ask that they pray for you lest a worse thing come upon you.

You'll continue in bad health,both physically and spiritually if you refuse to humble yourself. You'll contine to be easily offended and embittered rather than be easily entreated and at peace having true humility unless you rid yourself of this infirmity of these many years.

You might have begun your post thus -

First rule of proper hermeneutics = Scripture interprets Scripture - not women.

...but you did not!

You know what many reading this do not. There is more to those words you begun your post with than meets the naked eye. Men are enemies to you deep inside your mind. Take this seriously and be free indeed. Do this and experience freedom in Christ which you have never known.

I now offer these comments on Romans 7 by a "man" named Charles H. Spurgeon,

Romans 7:14

“I am carnal.” There is the source of all the mischief, — a disobedient and rebellious subject, not an irksome law. The law is good enough, it is absolutely perfect; “but,” says the apostle, “I am carnal,” — fleshly, — “sold under sin.”

Romans 7:15.

The man himself does that which is evil, but his conscience revolts against it.Such is our complex condition. We are new creatures, but the old man struggles within us to get the mastery.

Romans 7:15.

This is a strange contradiction, — a man who has grace enough to will to do good, and yet does it not. There are two men in the one man, — the new nature struggling against the old nature. This must be a renewed man who talks in this fashion, or else he could not say that he hated sin; yet there must be a part of him still imperfect, or else he would not do that which he hates.

Romans 7:16.

“If I do that against which i and my conscience rebel, so far, the better part of me owns the goodness of the law, though the baser part of me rebels against it.”

Romans 7:16, 17

The new I sins not, but the old nature is sin, and remains what it always was.

Romans 7:17.

The renewed man still stands out against sin. His heart is not wishful to sin, but that old nature within him will sin even to the end.

Romans 7:18, 19.

Oh, how often have men, who have been struggling after holiness, had to use these words of the apostle! The more holy they become, the more they realize that there is still a something better beyond them, after which they struggle, but to which they cannot yet attain; so still they cry, “The good that we would we do not: but the evil which we would not, that we do.”

Romans 7:20

The true man — the newborn man — is struggling after that which is right. The real “I “, the immortal “ego”, is still pressing forward, like a ship beating up against wind and tide, and striving to reach the harbor where it shall find perfect rest. Oh, what struggles, what contentions, what rightings, there are within the men and women in whom the grace of God is working mightily! Those who have but little grace can take things easily, and swim with the current; but where grace is mighty, sin will fight for the mastery, though it must yield ultimately, for there can never be any true peace until it is subdued.

Romans 7:21

Speaking for myself, I can say that, often, when I am most earnest in prayer, stray thoughts will come into my mind to draw me off from the holy work of supplication; and when I am most intently aiming at humility, then the shadow of pride falls upon me. Do not gracious men generally find it so? If their experience is like that of the apostle Paul, or like that of many another child of God whose biography one delights to read, it is so, and it will be so.

Romans 7:22, 23

This is the believers riddle, which only regenerate men can understand. Do we know what it means?

Romans 7:22, 23, 24

These are birth-pangs, the throes and anguish of a regenerated spirit. The Christian man is fighting his way to sure and certain victory; so, the more of this wretchedness that he feels, the better, if it be only caused by a consciousness that sin is still lurking within him, and that he longs to be rid of it.

Romans 7:23

It is some comfort when we feel a war within the soul to remember that it is an interesting phase of Christian experience. Such as are dead in sin have never made proof of any of these things. These inward conflicts show that we are alive. There is some life in the soul that hates sin, even though it cannot do as it would. Do not be depressed about it. Where there is pain there is life.

Romans 7:24

This proves that he was not attacking his sin, but that this sin was attacking him. I do not seek to be delivered from a man against whom I lead the attack. It is the man who is opposing me from whom I seek to be delivered. And so sometimes the sin that dwells in believers flies at us, like some foul tiger of the woods, or some demon, jealous of the celestial spirit within us.

I went to that same Primi­tive Methodist Chapel where I first received peace with God through the simple preaching of the Word. The text happened to be, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"

"There," I thought, "that's a text for me." I had got as far as that, when the minister began by saying, "Paul was not a believer when he said this." I knew I was a believer, and it seemed to me from the context that Paul must have been a believer, too. Now I am sure he was. The man went on to say that no child of God ever did feel any conflict within. So I took up my hat and left the place, and I do not think I have fre­quented such places since.

Romans 7:25.

So that on the one hand he agonizes, and on the other hand he triumphs. Loathing sin and glorying in Christ are our daily experience. Groaning after holiness, and finding it in Jesus, we both sigh and sing, repent and rejoice, fight and conquer. This is not a past, but a present experience, and he is a true heir of heaven who feels it within.

Jesus-is-GOD is not Linn or Dorcas.

I sure am glad you are not the moderator of these forums.

They would be a secret men's club, only - Right?

I have not agreed with everything that the JiG or others including you have said but what would the women who have the Spirit of Christ be able to say in your world? Would you like some more ice tea?

Come on dude, give it break. I have never seen you chastising sisters before. I mean, I've seen you spouting the Patriarchy thing over and over, but now you are actually acting it out for all to see. You're probably angry at the moderators for not banning these sisters and you finally couldn't take it anymore.

Greg has said many times this is not a church and the moderators are not elders so I would think that is why they are not being told to be quiet.

A lot of people have had to look past your man-made doctrine so the least you could do is look past theirs if you see any.

Pilgrim

Not a problem, Annie. :-)

Re: savannah wrote
/Jesus-is-GOD,aka Dorcas,aka Linn,

You persist in at-tempting to teach men as your co-hort Brenda does.

You were warned and your name made anonymous by the moderators on a few occasions over the years,but such has not tamed your spirit. You were spreading false doctrine and were not submitted as a meek and quiet spirited woman ought to. Sadly you've not learned to be such a woman as the Scripture and the Spirit teach.

It is to your shame and to the bad health of both your body and spirit that you've not been humbled over these many years. I do pity you and pray that you'd repent that the LORD may have mercy upon you yet.

If you do not heed these words I fear lest a worse thing come upon you. It is not usual for me to speak thus,therefore I am beseeching you that you do not ignore what you read here.

You have a deeply hostile spirit toward "men" which must go! Your post exudes with that spirit,not the mere words but that which is behind those words which have surfaced.

It has been a long time comin' over these many years,and you've been exhorted and admonished more than a few times in your life. I speak not just concerning SI. You know of that which I speak.

I'd exhort you to go to the elders and confess,and ask that they pray for you lest a worse thing come upon you.

You'll continue in bad health,both physically and spiritually if you refuse to humble yourself. You'll contine to be easily offended and embittered rather than be easily entreated and at peace having true humility unless you rid yourself of this infirmity of these many years.

You might have begun your post thus -

First rule of proper hermeneutics = Scripture interprets Scripture - not women.

...but you did not!/

Wow, Savannah this reminds me of How the Calvinist Puritans treated Mary Dyer and Ann Hutchinson, Thankfully you have no political power.

Galatians 4:29
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Have you forgot what you wrote?? https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=45078&forum=35&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=1

You'll continue in bad health,both physically and spiritually if you refuse to humble yourself. You'll contine to be easily offended and embittered rather than be easily entreated and at peace having true humility unless you rid yourself of this infirmity of these many years.

Savannah, I think you are confused. SermonIndex is a very large public street corner where the saved and unsaved come to converse. It is exactly like standing on the public street corner and conversing with a lot of people that you don't know. I hope you wouldn't shut someone down on a public street corner? And I am not shutting you down, please continue in the vein you are in if you like. But, it's not really a good way to act in public.

I would guess you do not have any relationship with Annie or Brenda outside of this forum (public street). What you are saying to her is considered a curse in the OT. I urge Annie and Brena to reject your words (curse) and I urge you to jump into the NT and show some grace and love to people that you really don't know. And if you did know them, you would speak to them privately instead of making such a scene. I don't think they are the ones lacking humility.

Pilgrim

Seems like is some fine examples of the old carnal fleshy nature in this thread.

Scripture plainly teaches that there is something that remains to be "put off"

1. What is it ?

So what is the cause of these things in the believer; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings and such like.

2.What is it?

-------------------------------
Quote :by murrcolr on 2012/7/7 14:50:00

Quote: Now it is a divine fact that we have been crucified with Christ. We are NOW totally and absolutely dead. This is NOT a positional truth but an actual true reality

Eph 4:22-25 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man “Wherefore” meaning for this cause or for this reason “put away”

Col 3: 8-9 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds

Another scripture encouraging us to “put off “since we have put off the old man…

A few verse up in Col 3:5 we are encouraged to “Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth”

What your saying is correct “We have been crucified with Christ” but you miss it when you say “We are NOW totally and absolutely dead” because if we were totally and absolutely dead then we won’t be encouraged to mortify or in other words “put to death” our members on this earth and we wouldn’t be encouraged to “put away” or “put off” if was completely “put away” or completely “put off”

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I believe this attitude is something we should stand in by faith, daily.

There are things that we must "put on", by faith, daily.

Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Pilgrim

And it is impossible to "reckon yourself dead to sin", if you have not been joined to Christ by His Spirit.

The "religious" don't know what this means, and that is why they err in the extreme on grace. They have no understanding of walking in victory so the create an "accomodating" Gospel (accomodating sin).

True Conversion is the door into the Sheepfold. Everything else is fleshly, religious activity. Holiness and Righteousness don't mean anything to the religious. They have created their own definition of it, thereby nullifying what God's word really means.

1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your BODY, and in your SPIRIT, which are God's.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Pilgrim

Quote: The word mortify means dealing with something that is already dead. I can kill nothing but because God has put my old sinful nature to death and now because of that fact it is easy for me to deal with because it is dead.

It is impossible to mortify something if it is not dead already!!!!

Quote: It is impossible to mortify something if it is not dead already!!!

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Mortify strongs concordance G3449 nekroō 1) to make dead, to put to death, slay 2) worn out a) of an impotent old man 3) to deprive of power, destroy the strength

Make dead your members on the earth or Put to death your members on the earth…..

Quote: Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Quote: I believe this attitude is something we should stand in by faith, daily.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. If your are by faith believing that one day you will experience being dead to sin then I applaud you, well done. As there is a big difference between being positionaly dead in Christ and experiencing it as a reality.

Quote: There are things that we must "put on", by faith, daily.

Amen that what scripture says

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

“Put on” --- Amen

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

But why do we have to “Put on” if we have already “Put on the new man?”

Col 3:8-9 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

But we also have to “Put off” because we have already “put off the old man”

Read it before and I will come on this website to confess when it happens to me.

Two small sound extracts of testimonies by Samuel Brengle

http://uk-christians.net/video/samuel-logan-brengle-testimony-of-a-pure-heart

Christ has set us free to NOT sin. We are free to NOT sin. We are no longer obligated to the flesh as Christ has set us free.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth WE SHOULD NOT SERVE SIN.

Whether you decide to sin or not is where the rubber meets the road.

Murrcolr,

Does this house describe your house?

"Is there more than forgiveness? Is there freedom from sin? Many respond to these questions by talking about the sin nature in the believer, saying one can never be free from sin because sin will always be in him until he dies. They say the righteousness of Christ in no way changes the carnal nature, neither does the carnal nature affect the divine nature. Here man finds himself in a schizophrenic dualism of confusion and failure. The emphasis is upon "saved IN sin" rather than "saved FROM sin". One finds himself living in a two story house with no connecting stairway. On one floor there can be no sin, while on the other floor there is nothing but sin."

Is this essentially what you believe? This is from my post:
A Popular, Modern View of Righteousness - "Saved In Sin" https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=45656&forum=34&3

Pilgrim

Are you so blind that you cannot see

2 Corinthians 1:15 ESV Because I was sure of this, I wanted to come to you first, so that you might have a second experience of grace.

2 Corinthians 1:15 NSAB In this confidence I intended at first to come to you, so that you might twice receive a blessing

2 Corinthians 1:15 ISV Because I was confident, I planned to come to you first so you might receive a double blessing

2 Corinthians 1:15 APBE With this trust I was willing from the first to come to you that you might receive double grace

2 Corinthians 1:15 WNT It was because I entertained this confidence that I intended to visit you before going elsewhere--so that you might receive a twofold proof of God's favour

Who knows murrcolr, I may be dumb and blind.

What are you trying to say?

Pilgrim

Quote: What are you trying to say?

That I am not schizophrenic with a false gospel.

2 Corinthians 1:15 ESV Because I was sure of this, I wanted to come to you first, so that you might have a second experience of grace

Two works of Grace, for the cure of Sin and sins.

One for the Spirit and the other for the heart...

i have to agree with jesus is god

tho i believe bapisim is an esentual experance to mature the saint and impower them

it doesnt make us entierly sangtfied ,,,meaning that we can grow an more in sangntafication after it

many people that experance the blessing ,dont even concider it baptisim of the spirit ,,,,but a filling of the spirt

george whitfield was with weasly when a group of them were as weasly put it baptised in the spirit ,,,but this was the third blesings that whitfield reiceved and the seconed for weasly

how we as believers intrepert our experancees with our fallable mind ,will always be different ,and our defenitions of the words we use are defined in our own mind ,,it causes much devision ,,becasue uor definitions and interprations ,are only falable

to say one is atained sinless perfection ,but can still sin and nomaly does ,seems to be a huge contradiction

one should not realy use the term sinless perfection ,,if one can still sin ,,it causes much un nesary despute,among believers

true brenda,,but when we look at the apostals like peter, barnabass and others we see they sinned and made big mistakes after spirit baptisim ,,,,,none were devinly perfect as christ

weasly when as far as to say we should all drink of whitfield spirit,,tho whitfield believed he was allreday baptisesd in the spirit at the new birth

whitfield experanced the same as weasly but called it something else ,and never claimed sinless perfection

so we should not judg others by there intrprataion of there experance

impling we have in falable interpration of all things

we become the pope then dont we

i got that from your post brenda

Just because Peter sinned does not mean that he had not become sinless at Spirit Baptism - HOLY Spirit Baptism which makes us holy so that we can walk as He walked.

It is not unusual in fact Wesley said it was common for a man to fall from that state then be restored and thereafter stronger in spiritual warfare.

Paul withstood

the bible talks about a big argumant ,and a spilting of ministerys,,and others were also carried away with peters hipocray,,,even barnabas,,if im not mistaken due to my falble mind ,,thoses that were with peter also were carried away with the contrdiction

Quote:Hope you don't mind me witnessing to this. What they call the "second blessing" is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and nowhere in the N.T. does it teach that this Baptism causes instant sanctification.

Acts 15:8-9 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

I don't know if you have studied the or read a testimony of one who claims to have recieved the blessing. What they testify to is that there heart has been made pure that it's a heart that totally loves God and men.

If you open your heart and seek to know the truth the Holy Spirit will begin to open up the scripture and the veil that covers your eyes will begin to be removed and you will see that it the second blessing is all through the scriptures.

Quote: The Baptism in the Holy Spirit is taught elsewhere.
If you look at the Church at Corinth - they had experienced the Baptism of The Holy Spirit but they were almost a complete mess of a Church that Paul needed to really work with.

I didn't have time to address the Corinthian church but can it be claimed that that the church had the Baptism just because the gifts of the Spirit. Peter in Acts clearly told us that when they had the Holy Spirit was his heart was cleansed.

Paul said to the Corinthians in chapter 12 let me show you a more excellent way. Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. Which would imply that they didn't have the baptism.

The Second work of the Spirit Col 3:12-14 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection.

Quote: So would the second blessing bring about "sinless perfection" as kraufrau defined it above? ...

The scripture above defines the blessing, love is the bond of perfection.