The Cost of Discipleship

I don't quite know where I want to go in this thread and so I am looking for the collaboration of my good brothers and sisters on this street corner to contribute with stark honesty about the the Cost of being completely sold out to Jesus.

So, I just came across this quote and it has some truths in it that just riveted me to my chair in stunned acknowledgement of it's words not only in today's Christendom but more importantly in my own life. That is the beauty of truth - it is like a mirror and we need so much of it.

This is a quotation from the 19th Century Danish philosopher and theologian Søren Kierkegaard, presenting a different view: And I don't want to get off into Soren, I just want to focus on these words. Do any of you see any truths in his words, below worth talking about?

“The matter is quite simple.
The bible is very easy to understand.
But Christians are a bunch of scheming swindlers.
They pretend to be unable to understand it because they know very well that the minute they understand, they are obliged to act accordingly.

Take any words in the New Testament and forget everything except pledging yourself to act accordingly.

My God, you will say, if I do that my whole life will be ruined.

How would I ever get on in the world?

Herein lies the real place of Christian scholarship.

Christian scholarship is the Church’s prodigious invention to defend itself against the Bible, to ensure that we can continue to be good Christians without the Bible coming too close.

Oh, priceless scholarship, what would we do without you?

Dreadful it is to fall into the hands of the living God. Yes it is even dreadful to be alone with the New Testament.” ?

[Provocations: Spiritual Writings of Kierkegaard]

Pilgrim

by pilgrim777 on 2012/7/8 16:32:06

I don't quite know where I want to go in this thread and so I am looking for the collaboration of my good brothers and sisters on this street corner to contribute with stark honesty about the the Cost of being completely sold out to Jesus.

So, I just came across this quote and it has some truths in it that just riveted me to my chair in stunned acknowledgement of it's words not only in today's Christendom but more importantly in my own life. That is the beauty of truth - it is like a mirror and we need so much of it.

This is a quotation from the 19th Century Danish philosopher and theologian Søren Kierkegaard, presenting a different view: And I don't want to get off into Soren, I just want to focus on these words. Do any of you see any truths in his words, below worth talking about?

“The matter is quite simple.
The bible is very easy to understand.
But Christians are a bunch of scheming swindlers.
They pretend to be unable to understand it because they know very well that the minute they understand, they are obliged to act accordingly.

Take any words in the New Testament and forget everything except pledging yourself to act accordingly.

My God, you will say, if I do that my whole life will be ruined.

How would I ever get on in the world?

Herein lies the real place of Christian scholarship.

Christian scholarship is the Church’s prodigious invention to defend itself against the Bible, to ensure that we can continue to be good Christians without the Bible coming too close.

Oh, priceless scholarship, what would we do without you?

Dreadful it is to fall into the hands of the living God. Yes it is even dreadful to be alone with the New Testament.” ?

[Provocations: Spiritual Writings of Kierkegaard]

Pilgrim

_________________________________

Pilgrim I received this in my email on the 3rd and it has been on my heart and mind since first reading it. I have thought on this and prayed so much on these words. How many times have I used this very excuse of saying "I don't understand what the Bible is really saying" just so I could go on living in self. It is a very easy excuse to grab hold of and to keep close as one goes about their daily life not really submitting to the LORD in all areas and all things, after all if something comes up that "i" really want to do in my flesh all "i" has to do in order to sooth the conscious is claim "i" am not sure what the LORD says on these things, and then of course there are so many differing opinions and doctrines to add to the "confusion". I think self can be just such a schemer, but in the end self is deceived because when we stand before the LORD none will have an excuse. JESUS said in HIS WORD if you love me then obey me...that really is not all that complicated even if self wishes to were so.

Thank you for having the courage to post this. Much to think, consider and pray about in these words.

God bless
mj

Hi MJ,

Thanks for your contribution. Yes, self is a real schemer. The Cross is odious to self.

These scriptures come to mind as I think of Soren's quote.

Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

and

regarding "scholarship" in the sense that Soren is using it,

Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

So, are we coming to God's Word with all of our heart? If we do, we will be changed,

if we don't...

we will just have a "religious" experience and I'm tired of religious experiences.

Thanks again,
Pilgrim

So, are we coming to God's Word with all of our heart? If we do, we will be changed,

______________

I have been seeking God on this very topic over
The last months and weeks. I have come to
see HE is looking for those who do truly love HIM
and have a desire to give up all and submit
To HIM. The thing about those words that HE
spoke in the Bible, "if you love me you will obey
Me," is that they are not a suggestion but a
direct command. So I have no choice but
to face this truth if I am unwilling to obey
Him then I do not love Him. I can't have it both
ways. If Jesus is LORD of my life then it has to
be all of my life. No excuses, my heart is
either entirely HIS or I am still holding back
trying to find ways to please self.
If my heart is HIS you are right there has to
be change.

God bless
Mj

I was sorry to see this fall off the front page so quickly. I really would be interested to reading others points of view on this topic as well.

God Bless
mj

Whoever does not carry the cross and follow me cannot be my disciple” (Luke 14:27). How much does it cost to follow Jesus? What crosses must we bear as we journey in radical discipleship?

Did you know that Jesus implied that some people starting out were not able to finish?

That coheres perfectly with:
Mar 13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

And notice that Jesus ties the thought in Mark 13:13 together with Luke 14:26.

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
Luk 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
Luk 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.

Do we have fear of where Christ may lead us? I think this is the big question and fear in many lives so we seek to save our lives rather than lose them for Jesus sake. And there are many ways the flesh gets religious in order to "save its life".

Pilgrim

I once had a conversation with an atheist who loved to bring up Christians' lack of obedience (as he saw it) to Jesus's teaching in the gospels. Here is his post regarding use of resources (in regard to the story of the rich young ruler), and my response:
______________
Atheist: The truth is my friends that you're treating the situation with the presupposition that it's your destination to live a life of an American suburbanite and read your Bible and condemn homosexuals and all else will be fine.

The truth is however, that the teachings of Jesus imply giving up your earlthly lifestyle comforts in order to obey his words. It takes a lot more effort to follow teachings of a prophet as radical as Jesus than a trip with the kids to a Sunday school. Just recall ALL those cases where Jesus condemned and criticized enriching oneself, profiteering, hanging on to life of affluence etc. He may have not stated his position on contraception but as far as money goes, boy he made it darn clear what his vision of a good Christian was. The New Testament is full of verses that condemn rich people.

Guess, what. All of you know that compared to the world average even the poorest of you here is a billionare!

Deep inside all of you know that a car and a McMansion filled with Nintendo toys would not be Jesus' idea of true Christian conduct especially in a world where 50% of the world population can barely afford enough food to keep their kids alive and another 20% simply cannot do even that!

So stop beating about the bush. Holding on to an American Dream and following Christianity IS mutually exclusive and you know it! It is obvious to me and I don't even believe Jesus was divine.

I'm not a Christian and even though I lead a modest life it still weighs on my conscience that I'm not doing enough to help the poor in this world even though I have no spiritual "incentive" to go out and help. But I have seen such gut wrenching poverty that you have no clue about.

I am peeved at Americans who think of themselves as "poor" or even "modest" when in fact they have sooo much material wealth. It is what, the second richest country in the world PER CAPITA? And a country that also donates the smallest slice of its GDP to the third world aid! And these people overwhelmingly claim to follow New Testament's teachings? C'mon if that is not hypocrisy then I don't know what is. Jesus wanted you to work and earn wages... and to give away all of your earnings beyond the bare necessities to the poor of this world. Anything that falls short of that is clearly in violation of his teachings. It's that simple, people."
_________________
My response:

"I was thinking about atheist's comments last night and it was bothering me a bit-- particularly the comments about comparing the average american to the average resident of a 3rd world nation.

When Jesus talked about being rich, i think He meant "rich." The young ruler who approached him was rich. Not compared to the natives living in the jungle but the average Israelite. in other words, the rich young ruler had a lot of cash. Just as we, in our american society, say that Bill Gates is rich, or pro athletes, etc. Jesus's warning was for the rich. He didnt say "by the way, you middle class Jews are rich too, compared to other people in the world."

What Atheist is trying to trap us into buying is that the average Christian is rich, at least when compared to the poorest of the poor. i dont see any reason to believe that Jesus meant this. I dont think if the average middle class christian in america is "sinning" by going to work, paying their bills, living in a decent house, giving to the church etc. Atheist seems to suggest that we are sinning (based on Jesus's teachings) if we dont live in cardboard shacks and wear burlap, just because there are others who have less. if the average middle class christian is "sinning" by living their life, wouldnt there be a lot more conviction about it? Of course we are simply stewards and should maximize our giving. But i am not falling for the fallacy that the average American Christian is rich, in the way that Jesus meant the term and in the context of the passage."

TMK wrote:What Atheist is trying to trap us into buying is that the average Christian is rich, at least when compared to the poorest of the poor. i dont see any reason to believe that Jesus meant this. I dont think if the average middle class christian in america is "sinning" by going to work, paying their bills, living in a decent house, giving to the church etc. Atheist seems to suggest that we are sinning (based on Jesus's teachings) if we dont live in cardboard shacks and wear burlap, just because there are others who have less. if the average middle class christian is "sinning" by living their life, wouldnt there be a lot more conviction about it? Of course we are simply stewards and should maximize our giving. But i am not falling for the fallacy that the average American Christian is rich, in the way that Jesus meant the term and in the context of the passage."
__________________

I would guess the person you were speaking to was attempting to get you upset by saying these things. What he(the atheist you were speaking with) did not understand was that JESUS was talking about an attitude of the heart with the rich young ruler. JESUS knew the rich young ruler attitude was one of love for the things he had and that is why JESUS said to him go and sell all and follow me. He was revealing to the young man the true condition of his heart. But this person being an atheist would not have eyes to see that any way.

I think it comes down to the attitude of our hearts... do I love the LORD with all my heart, soul, mind and strength? Am I willing to submit completely to HIS authority as LORD in my life? Am I willing to obey and follow where ever HE may lead?

God Bless
maryjane

Post deleted as would have to explain in more detail as realize that what was originally said was incomplete. As I do not have the time to write such detailed post, its best that I bow out of the thread.

Yes, Jesus sees all the idols that we have in our hearts and was telling this young rich ruler about his idol.

We are not to receive condemnation from man or devil. The Holy Spirit brings conviction not condemnation.

Condemnation is Satan's counterfeit for conviction which he uses to get Christians to act on behalf of him and move them out of God's will.

Pilgrim

MJ wrote:
"I think it comes down to the attitude of our hearts... do I love the LORD with all my heart, soul, mind and strength? Am I willing to submit completely to HIS authority as LORD in my life? Am I willing to obey and follow where ever HE may lead?"

Amen to that.

QUOTE:
______________________________________________________________

“The matter is quite simple.
The bible is very easy to understand.
But Christians are a bunch of scheming swindlers.
They pretend to be unable to understand it because they know very well that the minute they understand, they are obliged to act accordingly.
______________________________________________________________

The devil has whispered these very words into my ear, too, already.

Under the OT law ignorance of the law did not excuse anyone from the consequences of violating it.

Under the NT the same principle still is operating. Romans 1:20: "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

It may be interesting to ask those who hold to this philosophy under what authority they believe this to be true?

My understanding...

QUOTE:
______________________________________________________________

Christian scholarship is the Church’s prodigious invention to defend itself against the Bible, to ensure that we can continue to be good Christians without the Bible coming too close.
______________________________________________________________

May be, depending on who you are talking about.

Then there are those who will expound on the WORD, giving sense to it so the listeners can better understand it. This happened in the OT, Nehemiah 8:8 "So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading" and still is true today.

May I suggest this author has limited exposure to writings by godly men...

“The matter is quite simple. The bible is very easy to understand. But Christians are a bunch of scheming swindlers. They pretend to be unable to understand it because they know very well that the minute they understand, they are obliged to act accordingly."

One thing that probably needs to be suggested for this is that Kierkegaard's statement may need to be historically contextualized. He lived from 1813-1855, only 42 years, and for such a young age was a rather prolific individual. I know you said you did not want to discuss "him" perse, but his statement may reflect some truth as to the atmosphere of scholarship in his day. It may be dangerous to just pull this quote out and assume that it means in all cases today what it may have meant in his day. (Not that I know for sure, it just might be good to hit the pause button and consider the possibility.)

The fact of the matter is, today my walk increases in great depth regularly, thankfully to good solid biblical scholarship. As a matter of fact I think that good scholarship does more to prevent bad teaching than almost anything.

That being said, there is the truth that many, myself included if I think I stand, may increase in knowledge by ever learning and may never be able to come to a full knowledge of the truth.

All that being said, this needs to be balanced, and also I understand what MJ was saying earlier. We are exceptionally gifted when it comes to evading the mirror of the word of God.

"But Jesus did not commit himself to them because he knew all men!"

Areadymind
One thing that probably needs to be suggested for this is that Kierkegaard's statement may need to be historically contextualized. He lived from 1813-1855, only 42 years, and for such a young age was a rather prolific individual. I know you said you did not want to discuss "him" perse, but his statement may reflect some truth as to the atmosphere of scholarship in his day. It may be dangerous to just pull this quote out and assume that it means in all cases today what it may have meant in his day. (Not that I know for sure, it just might be good to hit the pause button and consider the possibility.)

I think that is a good point so I rescind my request not to talk about him. I think he may have been pushing back at the "Textual Criticism of his day. Clearly, he is against "scholarship" that nullifies or waters down the Word of God. A problem we see that is rampant, today.

All that being said, this needs to be balanced, and also I understand what MJ was saying earlier. We are exceptionally gifted when it comes to evading the mirror of the word of God.

I thought that was particularly insightful from MJ. We see something in the mirror that WE want to see and not what is really there. We have to love the truth enough to want to see it and receive it.

bearmaster

Re: What does the cross mean. |
One of the clearest commands Jesus gave to be a disciple was to take up their cross to follow him. We often apply this in the spiritual to follow Christ. Much in the Gal. 2:20 sense. While this is a ligitimate application of taking up one's cross. I would suggest there is more.

First of all how would the original listeners have understood Jesus command. Remember Judea was an occupied country. Subjugated by the Romans. There were those who resisted the Romans and were dealt with in Roman brutal justice. The Romans did not invent crucifixon. But they had perfected to an agonizing slow death. Those who were crucified were hung on crosses that dotted the Judean countryside. This was to show the severity of Roman justice.

Those who carried their crosses were going to a place of certain death. They would suffer a slow, agonizing, painful death. The condemned would be mocked, humiliated, cursed, be left naked for all to see. They would be scorned. And they would die.

You know what I saw when I read that Bearmaster? When Jesus said that to his disciples they must have been shocked. But, later on (3 years), they realized that Jesus was going to (and did) carry His cross and died first. And then it all became clear to them. "Pick up your cross and follow me (to death). This actually goes well with the all the threads that talking about dying to sin, reckoning yourself dead, we've been freed from sin, have no obligation to the flesh to sin anymore, etc,etc. If we don't pick up our cross, then the flesh is happy and sinning away, but if we do pick up our cross each day, then we give no occasion to the flesh. We choose rather to suffer (crucified life) than enjoy the pleasures of Egypt (flesh). He that has suffered in the flesh (choosing to carry his cross) has CEASED from SIN.

ginnyrose

Re: The Cost of Discipleship |
QUOTE:
______________________________________________________________

Christian scholarship is the Church’s prodigious invention to defend itself against the Bible, to ensure that we can continue to be good Christians without the Bible coming too close.
______________________________________________________________

May be, depending on who you are talking about.

I am thinking that he is talking about the liberal scholars of his day.

Then there are those who will expound on the WORD, giving sense to it so the listeners can better understand it. This happened in the OT, Nehemiah 8:8 "So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading" and still is true today.

Thanks God for anointed teacherss called of God.

May I suggest this author has limited exposure to writings by godly men...

I don't think so. I think he had great exposure to writings of Godly men and that is why he was able to make a distinction about what true Christianity is and what liberal theology DOES to the Word.

Thanks for all your contributions.

Pilgrim

What is discipleship? what is the cross? How are we to apply these concepts in our daily walk as christians, individually and as a church.

[Provocations: Spiritual Writings of Kierkegaard]

I’m curious myself: What stirred Kierkegaard to put down these thoughts? What was going on in his world at the time… and in his mind? What is his main thrust as a philosopher, and how does the above quote relate with that…. and also with the biblical message?

Diane

I agree maa'm. We need to apply critical thinking in many matters. Christian scholarship is one of the graces that can benefit any christian.

For example on the issue about discipleship, there are discipleship systems existing today that without those critical writing of our brethren, many will suffer and continue to suffer from the deception or errors that some of these systems are propagating.

We have systematicaly butchered the Bible. We put our Faith in modern Scholars (Scribes) rather than in Gods ability to personly speak to us through The Scriptures.
This is nothing new, Jesus Pointed this fact out many times to the Jews.

Wow!

What a great topic.

I wish we could start on online book study (subject to the scripture, of course) on Bonhoeffer's "Cost of Discipleship".

This is a life-changing book. He was martyred at the end of WWII for his work with the German Resistance groups against Hitler. He was jailed and hanged on suspicions of being a member of the "Flossenburg Gang" who allegedly conspired to assassinate Hitler.

He wrote a terrific book on Discipleship.

How about Book Club Thread? I'm game.

Love-in-Christ,

KP

Dietrich always reminds me about the verse, "If you live by the sword you will die by the sword". I think it was a mistake for him to get involved with a group to assasinate Hitler. God protected him from the condemnation of actually carrying out that vengeful deed. "Do not repay evil with evil, but give place to wrath". Romans 12.

Yes, there are many Discipleship "systems" today and sadly, many incorporate the OT Law within their "Christian" system.

So, I guess you could say the Cost of Discipleship to some is Legalism and Oppression.

Well, that is one type of Cost but it is Discipleship to man and not God.

Bill Gothard has created an incredible system that incorporates the OT Law in his discipleship system and results in much legalism. I would love to talk about his system of theology and how he twists sciptures giving examples from his course materials but he is much beloved by SI and they would take it personally.

Critiquing his theological system has as far as I know, is still off limits on SI. But, there are plenty of links around the web, especially from former Gothardites where people can get the information they are looking for to help themselves.

Pilgrim

Bonhoeffer was innocent.

Don't most martyrs die with the false accusations of their enemies following them?

C'mon! Bonhoeffer was in no ways involved in an assassination plot. He sympathized with the Jews in the midst of and at the expense of his own national pride and identity. He was a German opposing the Nazis for the sake of the Jews.

He lived by no sword.

Wow, the lies of the enemy do sometimes prosper!

Love-in-Christ,

KP

Whoa now, brother. Read my post on your book club. I would like to find out what it was all about.

Pilgrim

You know, unless you ask you never will know. So, let me ask SI right now.

Would SI mind if I reviewed Bill Gothard's materials (what he has in print, publicly) with other discerning Saints on SI?

He has a theological discipleship system that he teaches and would it be alright with SI if his system were discussed. Nothing personal about Bill Gothard would be discussed.

Thank you,
Pilgrim

I feel in no ways oppressed by NOT BOnhoeffer's but Jesus' "system of discipleship" which the Lord describes in Matthew 5 to his own Disciples.

My earhtly goal is to live as a disciple of Christ Jesus.
And it is not "systems of discipeship" which are oppressive, it is the world's response to discipleship which is guaranteed to strike at the system of discipleship.

What do you say?

Have you actually read "Cost of Discipleship"?

If so, would you be willing to read it again alongside Matthew 5 and I will read this "Gothard" if you can recommend a book. It would be interesting to see how he compares to Matthew 5.

Love-in-Christ,

KP

Hey!

I've never heard of Gothard, so you've got an unbiased response waiting in the wings, once you direct me to his studies and I acquire them.

But, can we also look at Bonhoeffer's Matthew 5 discipleship?

Love-in-Christ

KP

Ok, first of all, I can be unbiased, too. I would like to read Bonhoeffer's Matthew 5 discipleship, for sure.

I think this is a very good read and also think that Bonhoeffer is one of the most courageous brethren that ever lived.

http://www.dartmouthapologia.org/articles/show/123

I am curious what caused his arrest and later execution. You are saying that there is no truth to the matter that he was part of a resistance movement to assasinate Hitler, and that all articles and essays on this are just lies. Ok, I accept that and would like to now look into why this disinformation about him has proliferated.

Blessings,
Pilgrim

"I am curious what caused his arrest and later execution. You are saying that there is no truth to the matter that he was part of a resistance movement to assasinate Hitler, and that all articles and essays on this are just lies. Ok, I accept that and would like to now look into why this disinformation about him has proliferated."

For the same reason the Emperor Nero's lies about the Christians setting Rome on fire has survived.

Thank you for the "Dartmouth" link.

He did break civil laws established under the Nazi regime for providing intelligence that would assist in saving the lives of Jews; he was essentially arrested for aiding Jews in their escape from Germany.

Yet, even when he resided in his jail cell, he would pass notes to other prisoners with messages of encouragement and hope in Christ. Like we are currently doing at this very moment.

Do you have any links to this "Gothard" man's version of discipleship?

Love-in-Christ,

KP

Yes, Corrie Ten Boom's family saved many Jews from the Nazi death camps. They did not do this by killing, but rather by rescuing (and of course they broke Nazi laws in force at that time in their country).

If it comes down to disobedience to God, of course one must obey God and not man. Jesus did specifically say, "do not render evil for evil and don't take vengeance". The Ten Booms were not rendering evil for evil.

You can start here on Bill Gothard and there are many links at the bottom of the second one.

http://ronhenzel.tripod.com/GothardZone/08-BG2BG/01-OnceUponATime.html

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/gothard/general.htm

Pilgrim