Is Mormonism a cult? How can you do this?

Here is my question. Is Mormonism a cult?

If it is a cult, how can Christians vote for a Mormon? If we know that Mormonism is a cult, and that Mormonism is against the Lord, how can a Christian justify voting for someone that is an abomination to God?

Have we sunk so far in our own walks that we will overlook a little thing, like a satanic cult, in order to vote "conservative"?

Our next President of the United States could very well be a cult member. How can you sleep at night knowing that you may have helped place him in that position... A cult member?

That is a lot of fluff BT.

Your vote for Romney, is a vote for Satan and what the deceiver stands for. There is no justification around this.

All those other Presidents that you state, what has that to do with THIS current presidental race? What do those elections have to do with YOUR vote for a cult member?

Also, be careful calling President Obama a muslim, or you may be guilty of bearing false witness.

BT. Yes, I am conservative, pro-life and pro-family. :)

Since you stated the following "...I voted for candidates on a secular level."... Would this include voting between 2 Muslims candidates for President as well, if that was the choice?

I ask because it comes back to the basis of my question.

Thank you.

I believe we should be very careful to not let this issue become divisive and heated. I live in a very politically-minded household (not myself personally, but others). I will have 6 young adults voting in the coming election so we are having much discussion over the issue in my home. I personally am wrestling with the issue a GREAT DEAL and can understand points on both sides of the issue (not normal for me as I am usually considered a pretty black and white person). True - we have to answer to God in our conscience, and yet to not vote for Romney, is in fact voting FOR Obama. His policies have proven to be evil beyond belief. I just think it is possible for very conscientious and thoughtful and conservative (TRUE) Christians to come down on different sides of the issue, and while we may not understand the other person's side, we should be careful not to have the Christians fighting each other on this thing....

Mama27. The issue is that Romney is in a cult. Is anyone denying this fact?

If it is a fact that he is in a cult, how can a Christian vote for this man? How can someone seperate their vote from their beliefs without bastardizing those beliefs?

Let me put it another way, even if it may be a strawman...

If the presidential race was between 2 Muslims, would folks still pick "the lesser of two evils"? Or would they abstain or vote for someone totally different.

I would disagree that not voting for Romney is voting for Obama. Not voting for Romney is just that... not a vote for Romney/cult.

I am not denying that Mormonism is a cult. I am inclined to be on the side that you take. I am only saying that it is a VERY difficult issue, and I think a person has to be convinced in his own conscience.

Miccah, bearmaster: I agree that Mormonism is most surely a cult. But, just because our current President claims to be Christian doesn't make it so. I thought that i was a Christian for years, but wasn't. Jesus said that we will know the tree by its fruit, right? What kind of fruit is abortion? It is no secret that our current President is the most pro-abortion President in history. He even co-sponsored a bill to allow doctors to kill a baby who actually survived an abortion. This is not Christian fruit. Sorry. Mt 7:17-23.
As far as who to vote for, my opinion is to vote for whoever is closest to our Christian values.

Miccah,

I believe that we should be very careful about accusing individuals of "voting for Satan."

Yes, Mitt Romney is a Mormon. Yes, Mormonism is a cult. So, the next President of the United States may very well be a Mormon. However, you could argue the same thing about our CURRENT president as well (*since he belongs to a Liberation Theology cult...and questioned the fundamentals of the faith in his own autobiography).

However, I have to wonder if you are placing too much emphasis on the role of the President and taking such a bipolar stance on the issue.

Do you ever go shopping? Do you openly and publicly scrutinize the grocery store's owners from which you purchase the groceries? Do you accuse the individuals who shop at the local Piggly Wiggly grocery store of giving money to Satan because of the religious background or faithfulness of the owners? Or what about the products that you buy? Do you question the faith of the farms that produces the milk, fruit, vegetables, etc... that you buy? Do you question the religious faith of the owners of ALL of the companies for which you make purchases of their products?

The same can be said of nearly everything that you do in life. Are you really meant to verify the faith of the owners or workers of the gas station where you buy your car's gas? Do you call Dell, HP, Gateway, Apple, Asus, Ford, GM, Toyota, Honda, etc... to see where they stand in the faith before choosing to purchase one of their products?

Do you ONLY choose products that come from Christians?
Do you ONLY work for companies where all of your bosses will be Christians?

If we aren't careful, we will fall into the same attitude by which the Amish, Mennonites and others have in which they feel that "separation from the world" (ala Romans 12:1-2) comes in the form of complete physical separation and dealings only with those for which you can affirm their faith.

The problem, of course, is that it is difficult to validate ANYONE'S faith. There are individuals here on SermonIndex who are sometimes willing to dismiss the faith of believers who don't line up with every last doctrine that they believe.

In this case, we know that Mitt Romney is a Mormon and Barack Obama is part of a Liberation Theology adherent. There is no question that both of these religions are cults and do not embrace the fundamental teachings of authentic Christianity.

Yet, is making a choice over who would be the best for the next four-year position of "President" the same as embracing their cult?

My boss is not a Christian. My landlord is not a Christian. The guy who gave me my driver's test is not a Christian. Most of my teachers and professors were not Christians. The cashiers at the local Wal-Mart aren't Christians. The computer monitor that I am using was manufactured in a country with few Christians. The clothes that I wear and the cell phones that we use were manufactured by companies of which I have no idea whether or not any Christians worked. The same is true of most companies, restaurants, stores, and businesses that I have used. At one point, my parents weren't Christians.

Does this mean that it is wrong to interact with such individuals? If I am applying for a job, do I ask the potential employer giving the interview whether or not he is a real believer? And, do I quiz him to make certain that he is more than just a Christian in name only?

Likewise, the position of "president" is simply a four year SECULAR position of an executive to one third of the government (the Executive Branch). We don't select a "Pastor-in-Chief." We aren't endorsing the religious faith of that individual. Americans are simply selecting a man for a four-year secular position based upon policy choices that he wants to accomplish.

I believe that it is possible to separate some of the things that a man wants to do (decision-wise) and specific views about righteousness and unrighteousness from the spiritual views of that person. Most people don't endorse the man or EVERY belief of a man but certain beliefs of the man that he wishes to campaign upon.

If you needed to rent a house or an apartment, do you not take such things into consideration? If you had to choose between a house to rent in which one unbelieving neighbor plays loud music, walks around scantily-clothed, staggers around drunk and slaps around his wife and children...or the other which has an unbelieving neighbor who cares for his wife, lives with appropriate modesty and is quiet -- which one would you choose? Would it be "less spiritual" to choose one over the other?

No one here has denied that Mitt Romney is a Mormon. No one here embraces Mormonism. Most people are aware that Barack Obama belonged to a Liberation Theology cult for most of his adult life. No one here is embracing that.

However, I again think that you need to be careful about making absolute declarations when it comes to the decisions that real believers here will make in November. You can present your points. You can present what you believe the Word says on the subject. However, we should be careful about making absolute declarations when others are seeking to follow the Lord's lead on this subject.

Wouldn't it be better to present our views and then simply ask others to pray about the election in November? This way, we are allowing them to be led of the Holy Spirit and not what WE believe that the Lord thinks on the matter.

Who I would fear as President!

John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli, Martin Luther, Those who took political control after the Synod of Dordt, The Boston Puritans in the 1660s.

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight

Folks. Let us be clear. I will not be voting for Obama, nor will I be voting for Romney. When it comes to voting for the lesser of two evils, I choose none of the above.

Wouldn't it be better to present our views and then simply ask others to pray about the election in November? This way, we are allowing them to be led of the Holy Spirit and not what WE believe that the Lord thinks on the matter.

Sorry brother. But do not count on me to clear your conscience. I think that it would be better for me to listen to what I believe the Lord has placed on my heart regarding this matter, rather then not saying anything. If I would say nothing, then I would be more guilty.

Yes, Mitt Romney is a Mormon. Yes, Mormonism is a cult. So, the next President of the United States may very well be a Mormon.

Ok, so how is this even an issue? Have we fallen THAT far that Christians will vote for a cult member?

However, I have to wonder if you are placing too much emphasis on the role of the President and taking such a bipolar stance on the issue.

Do you ever go shopping? Do you openly and publicly scrutinize the grocery store's owners from which you purchase the groceries? Do you accuse the individuals who shop at the local Piggly Wiggly grocery store of giving money to Satan because of the religious background or faithfulness of the owners? Or what about the products that you buy? Do you question the faith of the farms that produces the milk, fruit, vegetables, etc... that you buy? Do you question the religious faith of the owners of ALL of the companies for which you make purchases of their products?

The issue at hand is none of the above. We are talking about KNOWINGLY voting for someone that is in a cult (Romney). He denies Jesus and the very thing that we hold most dear.

To answer your question about patranizing different places... Apples and oranges. If I know that a place I shop holds to a certain belief that is contrary to scripture, I do not shop there. Home Depot, Ford, Target are a few examples of places I will not shop due to their business model on gays and such.

The great thing is that shopping/marketplace is covered under 1 Corinthians 10:25-27. I see no where in scripture where the Lord tells us to knowingly try to get a cult member elected.

Well thought out post Chris. Yet, with all that you write, you cannot get past the point that a vote for Romney is throwing your support behind someone who denies Jesus...

And it seems that a lot of folks/Christians are comfortable with that.

Hi Miccah,

Sorry brother. But do not count on me to clear your conscience. I think that it would be better for me to listen to what I believe the Lord has placed on my heart regarding this matter, rather then not saying anything. If I would say nothing, then I would be more guilty.

I have never and would never count on you or any man to do that. In fact, I don't even know what motivated such a response in the first place. I do think that it is better to be careful and allow the Holy Spirit to have His work rather than simply telling everyone what we think and presenting it as the word of the Lord. If we pray sincerely pray, we can depend upon the Lord to guide us in such matters.

Ok, so how is this even an issue? Have we fallen THAT far that Christians will vote for a cult member?

....

The issue at hand is none of the above. We are talking about KNOWINGLY voting for someone that is in a cult (Romney). He denies Jesus and the very thing that we hold most dear.

To answer your question about patranizing different places... Apples and oranges. If I know that a place I shop holds to a certain belief that is contrary to scripture, I do not shop there. Home Depot, Ford, Target are a few examples of places I will not shop due to their business model on gays and such.

The great thing is that shopping/marketplace is covered under 1 Corinthians 10:25-27. I see no where in scripture where the Lord tells us to knowingly try to get a cult member elected.

The issue is about making choices. Why is it that some people are much more adamant about scrutinizing a man running for a four-year term for a job as president than we do when deciding to directly work for an employer in a job?

In your answer, you said that you judge a store by the BELIEFS that might be contrary to Scripture. So, if this is the case, then you probably don't shop at 99.999% of the grocery, department and internet stores out there, right? After all, we cannot know EVERY last belief of each and every store. And, of course, since this world is predominantly filled with unbelievers, the chances are pretty good that any store is either owned or operated by unbelievers. Or, do we refrain from judging those companies because we don't study and exert similar scrutiny to them as we do those who desire to serve in public office?

Like I said, believers aren't voting for the religious beliefs of an individual. They aren't voting for a pastor. They aren't endorsing a religious belief, a view on the person of Jesus Christ, or even the moral consequences of any particular faith. Americans are simply deciding which of two major candidates that they think would be a better fit for the four-year job as an executive in a government of consent. Most vote on what they know of the issues and considerations about morality/immorality/righteousness/unrighteousness (sort of like the beliefs when you speak of stores)...and choose the person who most adheres to those issues.

Still, I understand your qualms. I must say that I share some of those same concerns. I am certainly praying for Mitt Romney's salvation, as I have been praying for Barack Obama's salvation for several years. I am not even entirely certain whether or not I will vote yet. I haven't felt a strong inclination to not vote, but I will be praying all the way until the November election about the matter. Regardless of the election, I know that the Lord is still in control. No kingdom or nation can rise or fall without His notice.

Like David Wilkerson used to day, "It will all 'pan' out in the end."

The Lord bless you, brother!

I would say: don't vote at all... just pray for the leaders of your country. You can never vote on a man that is still in sin and darkness, no mather how much virtua he seems to have.

Miccah wrote:
Our next President of the United States could very well be a cult member. How can you sleep at night knowing that you may have helped place him in that position... A cult member?

How many unbelievers did God use throughout the Old Testament? God can use Romney as well for our good.

One thing I will cling to is that the Bible says to do ALL you know to do and then stand and see the salvation of the Lord (paraphrased). All I know to do is vote for Romney because I am NOT voting for Obama. If God doesn’t want Romney in, he won’t get in but it won’t be because I, Lisa Rock, gagged at a gnat (Romney being a Mormon) and swallowed a camel (four MORE years of Obama).

Just my calm two cents worth brother!!
God bless,
Lisa

Chris,

Your postings are well thought out and very easy to understand. Thank you for that.

I want to focus on something that you wrote...

Regardless of the election, I know that the Lord is still in control. No kingdom or nation can rise or fall without His notice.

This is truth. I believe that most everyone on this forum wants to be on the side of the Lord and wants to walk in His truth. Hence the title "...How can you do this?"

Blessings brother. :)

Lysa,

I sleep just fine!!

All rainbows and unicorns?

If God doesn’t want Romney in, he won’t get in but it won’t be because I, Lisa Rock, gagged at a gnat (Romney being a Mormon) and swallowed a camel (four MORE years of Obama).

If supporting someone who denies Jesus and everything that our Lord lived and died for is "gagged at a gnat", then you have bigger problems to deal with then my post.

kjcword,

As far as who to vote for, my opinion is to vote for whoever is closest to our Christian values.

Are Mormons Christians? Are Mormons our brothers in Christ? Are Mormon values and beliefs closest to ours as Christians?

Christianity in America has fallen SO FAR from the Word that people may believe that Mormons are Christians and brothers in Christ.

Mormons are not Christians. They are not our brothers and sisters in Christ. They worship a different god, a god not of the Word.

How can a Christian knowingly support someone who stands for nothing that Christ lived and died for? Someone who worships a false god. Someone who is hell bound if he dies in this current condition?

The better question will be, how will a Christian answer to the Lord when they stand in front of Him regarding this issue? Will a Christian say "I supported a man who worships a false god because the other guy raised taxes, had universal healthcare...? The issue is truly not with Obama, the issue is with Romney.

Christians... Pray. Pray. Pray. You are supporting a candidate that the Lord hates.

I actually think that this is really simple. Both men are in error. Basically we have someone who believes a cult lie vs someone whose fruit denies Christ (ie. abortion/homosexuality). I will be voting for the person under whom Christianity will have more liberty. Think about if the 1st century church could've voted Nero out of office by voting for a different pagan, who would've been more sympathetic towards the brethren. I personally believe that national repentance and revival are Americas only hope. And i will be voting for Romney, under whom i believe Christianity will have more liberty and freedom.

In most countries where Christians live this issue is not even an issue. Their anti-Christian leaders are already chosen for them. They simply live and secretly shine their light for Jesus until they get caught, tortured and killed.

The founders of this country were sick and tired of such tyranny and risked and gave their lives in order to establish a government where we as citizens could vote for our leaders and choose a leader who best fits our idea of freedom.

Luc 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

If you are a citizen of the USA, you have been given the power to influence the future of this country. If we as Christians do not use that power to help shape the future of this country, then we are partly responsible for its deterioration.

If one leader is supporting the murder of babies and the other is standing against it, yet by our vote or lack of voting the baby murderer gets elected, then WE have used our power (or neglected the use of it) in order to establish the MURDER OF MORE BABIES!

If your conscience as a “Christian” can let you do that, it might be seared.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

I don't have a dog in this hunt politically , so to speak, as I am not addressing the political thought process.

I DO have a dog in this hunt as it pertains to how the world sees we who name the name of Christ. There is no greater hindrance to true evangelism and revival than CHRISTIANS who do not understand the heart of God or the Gospel.

Miccah... not picking on you brother. You just articulated what many others are saying and thinking ... but it was your quote... so

Miccah states

Christians... Pray. Pray. Pray. You are supporting a candidate that the Lord hates.

That is absolutely against everything the Gospel stands for. God DOES NOT hate Mitt Romney! The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit love Mitt Romney! Christ poured out His own blood for Mitt Romney! The Spirit and the Bride say , "Come to Me", to Mitt Romney

God was bringing the world back to himself through Christ.(Including Mitt Romney!) He did not hold people's sins against them. God has trusted us with the message that people may be brought back to him. So we are Christ's official messengers. It is as if God were making his appeal through us. Here is what Christ wants us to beg you to do. Come back to God! 2 Corinthians 5

Could God desire a believer to cast a vote for someone that is not an "evangelical Christian"? OF COURSE!

Here is a deeper thought.... we (you and I) do not really know exactly what is in a persons (Mitt Romney's) heart even today. It is absolute folly to think we will know what they have in their heart in the future. However, GOD DOES!

God might well have a person put in place, or office, not because of what they believe or cling to today.... but because of where he will take them and what they will adhere to in 3 years! How arrogant for us to say we know better or more than the mind of God!

Again, I am not endorsing or "campaigning" for Mitt Romney, or any other candidate, with these thoughts. I am simply saying that to make blanket judgements because the religion he practices is not evangelical Christianity is not a sufficient reason to reject a person. We are not God and do not know what is happening or will become in their hearts.

Let's use one example to show the folly of this.

If you were in a situation that your 3 year old daughter had brain cancer and needed emergency brain surgery to survive who would you prefer to do the surgery-
1. A sweet, loving, born again brother that has a 3rd grade education and mows lawns for a living...or
2. A rough and cantankerous Jehovah's Witness that finished at the top of their medical school class and has a 20 year track record as the most successful brain surgeon in a 10 state area?

Well.... who would you vote for to operate on your daughter?
There is often more to a situation than just what a persons beliefs are.

Let's apply it to the election then...

Would you rather have

1. A possible muslim that has promoted abortion at every possible way even to the point of promoting partial birth abortions and excluding medical care for those poor babies that survived an abortion attempt. This of course has caused our land to run red with the blood of the innocents.

or would you rather have

2. A Mormon man with a strong family that will do all within his ability to end the scourge of abortion upon our land.

If looked at in this light one might say that by not voting for Romney then a person has said they endorse and want further abortions and innocent blood shed upon our land. I encourage everyone to read David Wilkerson's insight into the blood of the innocents on the land and the resulting judgements in scripture.

Not picking on anyone.... just trying to point out that there is much more to this than just "Mitt Romney is a Mormon... so don't vote for him".

That is absolutely against everything the Gospel stands for. God DOES NOT hate Mitt Romney! The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit love Mitt Romney! Christ poured out His own blood for Mitt Romney! The Spirit and the Bride say , "Come to Me", to Mitt Romney

So God loves those who deny Him? Will He still love them when they are condemned to Hell for eternity? If Romney died today in his Mormonism, would he go to Heaven or Hell. If He goes to Hell, it is easy to see that God hates him.

Is there time for Romney to be saved and with Christ? Absolutely.

God loves, and God hates. It is all throughout the scriptures. It is not a contradiction, it is simple truth.

kjcword,

I actually think that this is really simple. Both men are in error.

Well said. This IS truth.

Basically we have someone who believes a cult lie vs someone whose fruit denies Christ (ie. abortion/homosexuality).

Brother. This is wrong. BOTH deny Christ. I am going to assume that you know what Mormonism believes about Christ and salvation.

I personally believe that national repentance and revival are Americas only hope.

Yes brother.

And i will be voting for Romney, under whom i believe Christianity will have more liberty and freedom.

As an American this is your right. Be blessed.

So God loves those who deny Him?
Yes, God loved us while we were yet sinners.
Does God hate sin? Yes.
Does God hate the sinner? No. He gave His only begotten Son for sinners.
This is more about replacing one ungodly leader with another.
So we choose, abortion vs mormonism.
Can a dead baby be witnessed to VS can a mormon be witnessed to.
Let us do what we can to end the murder of babies.

kjcword,

Does God hate sin? Yes.
Does God hate the sinner? No.

This is what modern Christianity teaches us. No brother. God hates the sin and the sinner. It is by His mercy and grace that we are saved, and loved. If one does not walk in that love that Christ had for us, he is lost.

So we choose, abortion vs mormonism.

Not the issue. I am as pro-life as they come, believe me. The issue is voting for someone who denies Christ. Abortion is a seperate issue.

Let us do what we can to end the murder of babies.

Yes brother, but the ends do not justify the means. Supporting a satanic cult member because he is pro-life doesn't change the fact that he is a satanic cult member.

Remember this. Satan is not pro-life. His followers are either deceived, liers or satanist. I would not put any trust into a Satanist.

Miccah wrote:

"Will He still love them when they are condemned to Hell for eternity?...If He goes to Hell, it is easy to see that God hates him."

For lack of a better word, that is disgusting.

I apologize to any non-Christians who may be following this thread.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

This is a great love, a great truth which sends us to Holy conviction.
While we were yet sinners, God loved us. This truth should break our hearts and send us running to the One who gave Himself for us.
God judges sin and is giving sinners whom He loves a chance to repent.
God loved you before you became a believer. Jn 3:16, Rom 5:8-10.

The fact that you are ignoring, is that this election is about if America should reelect President Obama. Should we replace someone who is pro-abortion ( bigtime) vs someone who is anti-abortion.

As a simple sinner saved only by the grace of God I believe Daniel's statement in

Daniel 2:21 (KJV)
21 And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:

I believe this rings true today and has through out the ages. A casual observer of history, it appears to me God seems to have always given people (nations) a leader produced by the ideas, accepted norms, and desires of the general populace. In turn I believe He uses them as instruments to achieve His heavenly plan. I think the choices at hand today are representative of this very idea.
I fail to see biblical justification in not prayerfully voting for one of two people which God has placed in position for leadership and following that vote up with prayer that if elected he might seek God's council. Should the one elected not be my choice, my prayers for him and this country will continue unchanged. I believe this to be a biblically supported viewpoint. I hope every one is praying for our president and this country today. If ever needed, it is now.
Would I prefer a qualified true Christian at the helm? Of course. Is that now a choice? I don't think so. Will I vote for one of the two? You bet!......... but then, I've read the final chapter.

TMK,

For lack of a better word, that is disgusting.

So tell me friend. Does God love those in Hell?

kjcword,

The fact that you are ignoring, is that this election is about if America should reelect President Obama.

Not ignoring it. I want Obama gone, but that is not the topic.

Should we replace someone who is pro-abortion ( bigtime) vs someone who is anti-abortion.

Again, not the topic.

Brother. I spend much time advocating in many ways for pro-life. If you want to do great things for pro-life causes, there are much better things to do that will directly affect the abortion industry.

Re: | Miccah wrote:

"Will He still love them when they are condemned to Hell for eternity?...If He goes to Hell, it is easy to see that God hates him."

Would you also like jn 3:16 to read, For God so loved the elect?
Friend, God loves sinners and is giving all sinners a time to repent.
For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him, should not perish but receive everlasting life.

kjcword,

You skipped the question so I will re-ask it.

So tell me friend. Does God love those in Hell?

kjcword,

You skipped the question so Iwill re-ask it.

So tell me friend. Does God love those in Hell?

My point is that until God judges the sinner, he has a chance to repent.

This originally was about how can we vote for a Mormon.
What you miss, is that by not voting for the Mormon, we are essentially giving the most pro-abortion President in history our vote.
I'm not telling you that you will go to hell for the way you vote. (unlike others). But I will take this opportunity to vote against the current ungodliness.

It wasn't addressed to me.... but

Miccah asked

You skipped the question so I will re-ask it.

So tell me friend. Does God love those in Hell?

Absolutely YES! They are not there because HE did not love them, or does not love them. He certainly DOES love them...EVERY SINGLE BIT AS MUCH AS HE LOVES YOU! They are not there because Jesus failed to offer sufficient sacrifice for sin.

THEY ARE THERE FOR ONE AND ONLY ONE REASON - THEY DID NOT ACCEPT CHRIST AS THE SAVIOR OF THEIR LIFE AND PAYMENT OF THEIR SIN!

They are in hell... OUT OF THE WILL OF GOD! He did not want them there...He paid the price to give them a rescue from there... he wanted them to accept by faith the sacrifice of His Son on Calvary's cross.

Have you never read that , " God our Savior, who WANTS ALL people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth". 1 Tim 2 ... or...

"He is patient with you, NOT WANTING ANYONE to perish, but EVERYONE to come to repentance". 2 Peter 3

Oh yes, He emphatically loves us all.... even those who did not accept His Son.

Have you never read that, "God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him"? John 3.

I can quote dozens and dozens and dozens of scriptures to prove this fact. However, if you want the truth you can search for them. If you don't want the truth then posting those volumes of them won't help.

Hi BrotherTom,

To Chris: I wanted to thank you for your persistence in your statements here. I have seen something that I knew, way back in my mind, and did a little research, and came up with some facts that utterly startled me about Romney.

He is an abortionist! He simply planned to run for President and knew he could never be elected to the Republican platform and remain one.

Have you found anything that indicates that he is pro-life?

I don't know if we should assume or conclude that he changed his position because he couldn't be elected nationally...or that he changed his position while in Massachusetts because he knew he couldn't get elected there as "pro-life"...or that he changed his position because he changed his heart on the matter.

BTW, in rebuttal to the website you listed: I will need to spend time verifying the claims that they presented. However...I don't fear Obama. I don't fear Romney. Yet, I do fear God. I will pray to the God that I lovingly and reverently fear and ask for His guidance before I vote. If, after much prayer and study, I feel an inclination to vote for Romney, I will do so.

Solomon101

I can quote dozens and dozens and dozens of scriptures to prove this fact. However, if you want the truth you can search for them. If you don't want the truth then posting those volumes of them won't help.

I have read the scriptures. No where in scripture does He state that He loves those in Hell. In fact, there are many places that it say the Lord hates certain things and people.

It is not all rainbows and unicorns. Eternal seperation from God is not love towards the seperated. It is judgement and punishment, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Where the worm never dies...

brothertom wrote,

He is an abortionist!

I had no idea. If this is correct, it would not surprise me in the least. Cults deceive, just like Satan.

Hi Brothertom,

I was aware that the reference was from the article. I apologize if it seemed like I was responding to you directly. Rather, I was responding to the closing words of the article that you pasted.

Now, I would have to spend time to verify the claims that were included in the article and in their correct context too.

More importantly, if the article's claims are true, I do think that we shouldn't "guess" the motive of why Romney may have changed his position on abortion. When we do this, we are setting ourselves into a position for which we are not qualified to know such things. And, of course, if we present such things with either faulty claims (even partially so) or with incorrect context/motives, then we are guilty of spreading something that is "less-than-pure."

I am unable to determine how "sincere" or "insincere" a person may be. I can look at a record, review words (either from the person or as recorded) or voting records. However, the sincerity of a person's views on a matter are an entirely different thing altogether. If Romney is indeed a Mormon, that cult holds to a strict view on the topic of abortion. So, if Romney was an abortionist at one time, then he was a "bad Mormon" (but not because of good reasons).

Abortion is wrong. It is a major issue that often determines the votes of segments of the population. Where I live, there are individuals who are largely conservative in fiscal matters; however, they say that they would never vote for a Republican based entirely upon their platform positions on abortion and homosexuality (which they say are "fundamental rights").

Now, I trust that we all desire to be led by the Holy Spirit in such matters. I am also less familiar with the limits on gubernatorial authority in Massachusetts in terms of vetoes of individual mandates/issues within larger legislation. Again, I would need to research the claims of this article and I would certainly refrain from accepting them on face value until I have done so. And, of course, I wouldn't just perform research looking for evidence that would validate my preexisting concerns. Rather, I would look for evidence on all sides in order to more correctly understand where the man actually stands on the issues.

Again, I cannot make a judgment on his sincerity. I will say that I have seen articles, speeches, and votes that contradict the claims presented in the article that you pasted. Still, I will go through those claims in this article and check them for validity. In addition, I will compare those claims with other sources too.

The Lord bless you.

Solomon wrote:

"Have you never read that , " God our Savior, who WANTS ALL people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth". 1 Tim 2 ... or...

"He is patient with you, NOT WANTING ANYONE to perish, but EVERYONE to come to repentance". 2 Peter 3"

And not only that, but:
"we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of ALL men, ESPECIALLY of those who believe." 1 Tim. 4:10

TMK,

Requote...

I have read the scriptures. No where in scripture does He state that He loves those in Hell. In fact, there are many places that it say the Lord hates certain things and people.

It is not all rainbows and unicorns. Eternal seperation from God is not love towards the seperated. It is judgement and punishment, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Where the worm never dies...

The only thing I might add is the fact, separation from God remains a choice of man. Not God. I hope this statement doesn't branch towards predestination. :)

Nobody said that it was all rainbows and unicorns. God gives time to all men and desires that all men repent and believe on Jesus. God's judgment comes after death. (Heb 9:27). Again, ROM 5:8-10 is quite clear that God loves sinners enough to die for them. The text doesn't say, Behold, the lamb who takes away the sin of the ELECT. He loved you and me while we were yet sinners. Commanding all men everywhere to repent.

by Miccah on 2012/7/12 6:46:03

TMK,

Requote...

I have read the scriptures. No where in scripture does He state that He loves those in Hell. In fact, there are many places that it say the Lord hates certain things and people.

It is not all rainbows and unicorns. Eternal seperation from God is not love towards the seperated. It is judgement and punishment, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Where the worm never dies...

Ok kjcword. I see that my question will not be answered.

Be blessed.

Miccah wrote:

"I have read the scriptures. No where in scripture does He state that He loves those in Hell. In fact, there are many places that it say the Lord hates certain things and people.

It is not all rainbows and unicorns. Eternal seperation from God is not love towards the seperated. It is judgement and punishment, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Where the worm never dies..."
_______________

While I diasagree strongly with your premise, what is really objectionable is the glee you seem to take in making this statement.

BrotherTom,

I read your first few posts and was beginning to see that you were making some sense to this whole thing about voting and our rights as a Christian to pray and be led by God to make a choice of the candidate that we believe would be more in line with Christian principles. Then you took a u-turn in the road and went completely against what you previously said because of articles you read about Romney in the past.

Now Tom are you going to be a pacific’s and do nothing when it comes to voting because of someone’s past. You stated earlier why you would vote for the one running on conservative principles. You stated all the things Obama’s done and what about the next 4 years. How much worse will it get if he is in there for 4 more years. At least the other candidate will be running on a more conservative and moral platform and for that very reason will be doing things more toward Christian principles. We know that the one in there now will be running on the sodomite and pro-abortion platform as well as his out spoken support for these ungodly things.

Now Tom since the president has been more out spoken recently for so much ungodliness it leads me to believe that he will do more corrupt things and do so much more damage in the next 4 years. I as a Christian really need to pray and act according to what is going on now. I must act by making sure my “right to vote” is exercised against the ungodliness that I know is being carried out now and continues to be carried out. I must do what I can with my “one vote” to make sure that what I know is evil in that I am standing against it.

I don’t know what a new president will do in the next 4 years but I do know how much evil is being perpetrated on a daily basis with this present administration. Although we all know Mormonism is a cult, we also know that there moral values is much more in line with true Christianity than the values of the present administration.

After giving this thing some considerable thought and knowing that Jesus said “to render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and to God the things that are God’s”, then I have to pay taxes and also have a responsibility as a US citizen and as a citizen of heaven to make the best choices after prayer that I’m led to make. So if I don’t vote then I did nothing concerning the present administration and if every Christian who believes in moral principles does not vote then most likely the present administration will continue with its ungodly agenda. If I vote for a new president (not knowing for sure what it will be like) then I am voting against the present administration ( I do know how ungodly it has been and continues to be), and this leads me to believe in my heart stating before God that I am against what he is against, and that I will pray for the new president, his salvation, his moral decisions, and him having the ability to be a good president for the people of the USA and the world at large.

Blessing…from brother rbanks

TMK wrote,

While I diasagree strongly with your premise, what is really objectionable is the glee you seem to take in making this statement.

I appologize if I came off as having glee towards the above statement. This is not the case at all. Anyone that knows me outside of these forums would more then likly tell you that I truly have a burden and longing heart for the lost. It is my desire that ALL are with the Lord, as I strive to live my life this way. I take no joy in people being damned. I also will not water down the truth in order to be PC. Again, please forgive me if it was interpreted this way.

Yet, this does not change the facts of my statement. If you disagree with my statements, please prove via scripture where as God loves those that are damned to and in Hell.

If that is offensive to you, please take it up with the Lord, for it is in His Word.

rbanks wrote,

Although we all know Mormonism is a cult, we also know that there moral values is much more in line with true Christianity than the values of the present administration.

Brother... This is why Christianity has fallen so far in America. We compromise with the "lesser of two evils".

Mormonism stands against most everything you hold dear as a Christian. If you feel lead to compromise your most valued belief because of a secular election and vote for a Satanist, what does that say about you?

Miccah wrote:

"I have read the scriptures. No where in scripture does He state that He loves those in Hell. In fact, there are many places that it say the Lord hates certain things and people.

Not really in this debate... but will ask a question.

What exact scriptures are you using to prove that God said He DOES hate all the people who are in hell?

Those scriptures don't exist ..... and you are making vast assumptions. That is particularly true since several scriptures have been shown that God does indeed love all men, and paid for the sins of the world!

Solomon101,

You keep saying something to the effect of "not really in this debate...but..." Might as well join in. You are already involved. :)

There are too many to look up for you atm. But one that comes across my mind is the following...

Psalm 11:5-6,

5 The LORD tests the righteous,
But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.
6 Upon the wicked He will rain coals;
Fire and brimstone and a burning wind
Shall be the portion of their cup.

Brother Miccah,

If you feel lead to compromise your most valued belief because of a secular election and vote for a Satanist, what does that say about you?

I think that it would be good if you could add some "salt" to your rhetoric. Remember: You aren't speaking to unsaved men here. You are speaking to children of God who know their Savior. You don't have to speculate about our eternal spiritual condition or speculate about their motives. As believers, most of us will vote only if we feel led to and even then after after much prayer.

As some have stated previously in regard to the upcoming election, it may not be about the "lesser of two evils." It is simply a decision about which of two candidates might be a better choice for a four year term as president. They aren't choosing a pastor, a religion, or the man himself. They are simply deciding which would be a better of two choices.

This thread has meandered into questions about whether or not God loves individuals in Hell (which is odd because neither or the two candidates are there yet). Yes, Mormonism is a cult. Yes, Liberation Theology is a cult. However, nearly EVERY business in this country -- including the companies that built your PCs, phones and provide internet for you upon which SermonIndex is accessed -- are run by unbelievers.

Is there a "varying degree" of eternal status or error for an unbeliever? Are Liberation Theology advocates worse than Mormons? Are Mormons worse off than Episcopalians or Anglicans? Are atheists better off than Jehovah's Witnesses? Is a president of greater importance than the owners/managers of companies where you choose to buy groceries/clothes for your family or of the employers where you will work?

Ultimately, it is the responsibility of believers to pray before they do ANYTHING. You can rest assured that many of us will pray. You can even encourage the brethren to pray. However, you can't make the decision for us. Please allow the Holy Spirit to be the One who will guide us to the proper decision. After all, we too have the Holy Spirit.

I just think that we must be careful with our language. We may not reach an agreement on this topic before November. However, you can be confident that there will be much prayer between now and then.

Chris wrote,

Remember: You aren't speaking to unsaved men here. You are speaking to children of God who know their Savior.

Brother... It is this very FACT that I started this thread in the first place.

You don't have to speculate about our eternal spiritual condition or speculate about their motives.

No speculation here. Examining yourself and your walk in the light of scripture is something we should always be doing.

I just think that we must be careful with our language.

Thank you for your rebuke and I will take this under consideration as a brother in Christ.

Blessings!

Christiaan

Thanks for your kind reply brothertom!

We are going to only really have two choices in November and I am not totally convinced that we should stand by and not vote against the current administration.